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Celtics Basketball => Celtics Talk => Topic started by: ctrey on January 04, 2013, 10:47:23 PM

Title: Over/Under till Sully starts?
Post by: ctrey on January 04, 2013, 10:47:23 PM
I know he is getting shafted by the refs but this guy just keeps getting better and better.

Today from David Thorpe on ESPN.com:

Better than his raw numbers suggest


Sullinger
Jared Sullinger, Celtics | Rookie card
When NFL Hall of Famer Emmitt Smith was in high school, legend has it that he would close his eyes after first seeing how the defense was lined up and not open them until he felt contact, simply because he was so bored. He finished his prep career as the leading rusher in high school history, then earned the same historical record in the NFL.

When I watched Sullinger play before this season, I often thought of Smith's legend, because Sullinger so far outclassed most of his competition -- he was almost as dominant as a player can be in high school and in his two years at Ohio State. So when we see he's averaging 5 points and 5 rebounds for an average Celtics team, it would be easy to think he's not in the same class as the top players and certainly not in Smith's atmosphere.

But look deeper and you will see there is gold in Sullinger's game. It just needs the light of day to be seen.

Kevin Garnett might be a top-five defender if we consider every NBA big over the past 25 years -- that's how special he is. He's still almost at the top of his game on that end and probably the best help defender in basketball (though Joakim Noah is closing fast). Sullinger, though, is proving to be almost as good on defense for the Celtics as KG, a fact that gets lost because so many of their teammates are not on their level.

On the glass, Sullinger has been dominant, with a defensive rebounding rate of 22.1, second only to world-class athlete Andre Drummond among rooks. Sullinger has tackled the challenge of being more than a scoring machine beautifully, proving he can do the dirty work despite being such a star for so long. It will serve him well when he begins to get more offensive opportunities.


I give it another two weeks. When Wilcox can play again I bet they deal Bass and let Sully start. I would love to see them run just a few plays for this kid.
Title: Re: Over/Under till Sully starts?
Post by: lightspeed5 on January 04, 2013, 10:50:41 PM
he didnt start but he played more minutes than bass. its a tough call because he gets so many fouls, i think they'll play it like it is for now.
Title: Re: Over/Under till Sully starts?
Post by: hpantazo on January 04, 2013, 10:53:58 PM
The refs absolutely hate Sullinger with a passion! I know rookies don't get respect from refs, but this is on an entirely different level. 70% of the foul calls on him are a joke.
Title: Re: Over/Under till Sully starts?
Post by: ScottHow on January 04, 2013, 10:59:07 PM
I don't even know if the refs will let him start
Title: Re: Over/Under till Sully starts?
Post by: hpantazo on January 04, 2013, 11:16:09 PM
I don't even know if the refs will let him start

yea they might call a flagrant 2 on him before the tipoff if he starts
Title: Re: Over/Under till Sully starts?
Post by: BudweiserCeltic on January 04, 2013, 11:18:55 PM
If we start playing well, I don't think he'll start as long as Bass is here.

He'll only get the nod if we still don't play well, and he's playing well.
Title: Re: Over/Under till Sully starts?
Post by: SHAQATTACK on January 05, 2013, 12:06:08 AM
I love listening to Tommy brag on Sully.    Tommy is so happy somebody is finally get tuff around the rim.  And so Am I.

I don't care if he fouls ou long as he is getting the upper hand, frustating the olther tuff guys.  KG NEEDS Sully to help him .   Sully is the part of KG that age has taken away.
Title: Re: Over/Under till Sully starts?
Post by: triboy16f on January 05, 2013, 12:24:04 AM
The refs absolutely hate Sullinger with a passion! I know rookies don't get respect from refs, but this is on an entirely different level. 70% of the foul calls on him are a joke.

The refs probably can't believe a player this young could be this strong. So anytime he is manhandling guys like West to get position, they assume it must be a foul.

Sully definitely does make some rookie fouling mistakes here and there. But tonight about 2 of them were a joke. They prob had enough of Sully and his physical play and kicked him out of the game before he hurt somebody.

He totally beat up West tonight. After the game he must of been like, who the heck is this kid.
Title: Re: Over/Under till Sully starts?
Post by: lightspeed5 on January 05, 2013, 12:27:22 AM
sully has a good future with us once the refs know his name.
Title: Re: Over/Under till Sully starts?
Post by: chambers on January 05, 2013, 05:06:24 AM
I was going to make a topic about this after tonight's game...I probably still will.
Basically titled 'Celtics have one of their biggest ever draft steals with Sullinger'.

I'd say they'll keep bringing him in off the bench for now, he's a beast and is a key to our second unit. He holds down the paint while Terry and Green score, if they miss, Sully is there to get a second look or dish it back out.

His defense is just awesome. He holds his feet and uses his size and strength to outmuscle EVERYONE. He was throwing David West around, he was manhandling Reggie Evans when we stomped the Nets.
How good has he gotten in one third of a season!?
I could see him averaging 15/10 easily as a starter on this team.

I actually think the refs are starting realize how smart and talented he is and are actually letting a lot of calls go that they were calling on him in the beginning of the season.
At least vs the Pacers they were fair- they called some and they let plenty of them go and just let him be physical.

Danny Ainge committed highway robbery with this kid at number 20.
Thumbs up Mr Ainge.
Title: Re: Over/Under till Sully starts?
Post by: lightspeed5 on January 05, 2013, 06:07:17 AM
I was going to make a topic about this after tonight's game...I probably still will.
Basically titled 'Celtics have one of their biggest ever draft steals with Sullinger'.

I'd say they'll keep bringing him in off the bench for now, he's a beast and is a key to our second unit. He holds down the paint while Terry and Green score, if they miss, Sully is there to get a second look or dish it back out.

His defense is just awesome. He holds his feet and uses his size and strength to outmuscle EVERYONE. He was throwing David West around, he was manhandling Reggie Evans when we stomped the Nets.
How good has he gotten in one third of a season!?
I could see him averaging 15/10 easily as a starter on this team.

I actually think the refs are starting realize how smart and talented he is and are actually letting a lot of calls go that they were calling on him in the beginning of the season.
At least vs the Pacers they were fair- they called some and they let plenty of them go and just let him be physical.

Danny Ainge committed highway robbery with this kid at number 20.
Thumbs up Mr Ainge.
I called it one of our biggest draft steals right when danny ainge got him.

draft positions by danny:
21: rondo
19: avery
21: sullinger



Danny Ainge: The draft bandit around slot 20.
Title: Re: Over/Under till Sully starts?
Post by: LooseCannon on January 05, 2013, 06:45:10 AM
I suspect Bass will remain the starter for the remainder of the season.

I think that if Sullinger eventually gets the starting job while Bass is on the team, the trajectory should be him coming off the bench and increasingly being in there at the end of games.  Once he becomes a fixture in the crunch time lineup for some time, then he might eventually slide into the starting role.  I'm ok with the idea that that time might not be until 2014.
Title: Re: Over/Under till Sully starts?
Post by: Ogaju on January 05, 2013, 06:58:00 AM
This is why you dont trade him.

DA should make Rondo AB Sully and Melo untouchable in trade scenarios. They are the foundation to the future of the Celtics.

Allow these kids to develop under the tutelage of KG and PP for the next two to three years. Make a big spalsh in Free agency when KG and PP retire or if they want to go chase a ring elsewhere, but please dont trade the core of RR AB Sully and Melo.
Title: Re: Over/Under till Sully starts?
Post by: Galeto on January 05, 2013, 07:00:41 AM
I think this game against Indy may have been his best game overall.  He really made a positive impact on both ends of the court.  I doubt he starts anytime soon but if Bass insists on throwing the ball away a lot, maybe it'll be sooner than later if Sullinger can keep progressing.  Either way, this is the Sullinger I had hoped to see.
Title: Re: Over/Under till Sully starts?
Post by: mgent on January 05, 2013, 09:53:19 AM
Kevin Garnett might be a top-five defender if we consider every NBA big over the past 25 years -- that's how special he is. He's still almost at the top of his game on that end and probably the best help defender in basketball (though Joakim Noah is closing fast). Sullinger, though, is proving to be almost as good on defense for the Celtics as KG, a fact that gets lost because so many of their teammates are not on their level.
Haha I knew this guy was an idiot.  Three ridiculous things to say in a row.  KG is arguably a top 3 defensive big over the past 60 years.  And give me Tyson Chandler, Serge Ibaka, or Dwight Howard as a help defender over Joakim Noah any day. 

The best:  Sullinger is almost good on defense as KG.  Do I need to say anything?  He's not even an average help defender.... and you're going to compare him to one of the best all time?  He's proven to be a decent man to man defender, but never makes rotations on time or provides any sense of help.  I mean, he's not as bad as Bass but that doesn't change the fact that he's easily near the bottom of the league.
Title: Re: Over/Under till Sully starts?
Post by: csfansince60s on January 05, 2013, 10:12:04 AM
Hopefully not until sometime after January 15th, when Green and Bass can be traded.
Title: Re: Over/Under till Sully starts?
Post by: danglertx on January 05, 2013, 10:53:05 AM
Kevin Garnett might be a top-five defender if we consider every NBA big over the past 25 years -- that's how special he is. He's still almost at the top of his game on that end and probably the best help defender in basketball (though Joakim Noah is closing fast). Sullinger, though, is proving to be almost as good on defense for the Celtics as KG, a fact that gets lost because so many of their teammates are not on their level.
Haha I knew this guy was an idiot.  Three ridiculous things to say in a row.  KG is arguably a top 3 defensive big over the past 60 years.  And give me Tyson Chandler, Serge Ibaka, or Dwight Howard as a help defender over Joakim Noah any day. 

The best:  Sullinger is almost good on defense as KG.  Do I need to say anything?  He's not even an average help defender.... and you're going to compare him to one of the best all time?  He's proven to be a decent man to man defender, but never makes rotations on time or provides any sense of help.  I mean, he's not as bad as Bass but that doesn't change the fact that he's easily near the bottom of the league.

I'm not sure how much you know about basketball if you don't think Sully is an awesome defender.  Stop watching the ball and just watch everything Sully does on defense for several possessions in a row.  He is constantly jumping to cover another guy's man while he recovers and then jumping back to his guy.  One after the other.  There is a reason he has started finishing games.

Now on the ball he is having some trouble with bigger and more athletic guys shooting over him.  On the pick he hasn't been outstanding but at least he retreats faster than Bass or Collins but as a help defender he has been just about perfect.
Title: Re: Over/Under till Sully starts?
Post by: KGs Knee on January 05, 2013, 10:55:24 AM
Yeah, I can't see Sully starting anytime soon.

Bass and Sully are STILL redundant players.  I'd much prefer to trade one or the other (hopefully Bass).  Sullinger 's trade value might be rising though.

Either way, we need to continue to start Bass to keep his value up.  Bass seems to be less engaged off the bench.  Don't think he likes playing behind Sully or Collins.
Title: Re: Over/Under till Sully starts?
Post by: BudweiserCeltic on January 05, 2013, 11:01:05 AM
Trade Bass if you can for just about any big who can give you good minutes. If the player not in future plans, then an expiring contract to guarantee mid level next year.
Title: Re: Over/Under till Sully starts?
Post by: kozlodoev on January 05, 2013, 11:29:20 AM
Trade Bass if you can for just about any big who can give you good minutes. If the player not in future plans, then an expiring contract to guarantee mid level next year.
Bass is a "big who can give you good minutes".
Title: Re: Over/Under till Sully starts?
Post by: BudweiserCeltic on January 05, 2013, 11:32:55 AM
Trade Bass if you can for just about any big who can give you good minutes. If the player not in future plans, then an expiring contract to guarantee mid level next year.
Bass is a "big who can give you good minutes".

Who can play effectively as a center. Better?
Title: Re: Over/Under till Sully starts?
Post by: KGs Knee on January 05, 2013, 11:37:16 AM
Trade Bass if you can for just about any big who can give you good minutes. If the player not in future plans, then an expiring contract to guarantee mid level next year.

The problem is, you have to give something to get something.

If the Celtics really expect to get an uprgrade at either the C/PF position, Sully might have to be the bait.  It just better be a player who will actually have a significant impact.
Title: Re: Over/Under till Sully starts?
Post by: BudweiserCeltic on January 05, 2013, 11:41:29 AM
Trade Bass if you can for just about any big who can give you good minutes. If the player not in future plans, then an expiring contract to guarantee mid level next year.

The problem is, you have to give something to get something.

If the Celtics really expect to get an uprgrade at either the C/PF position, Sully might have to be the bait.  It just better be a player who will actually have a significant impact.

Personally, I'm not looking for the home run trade most around here are looking for. I want competent size. With that, use Wilcox when he comes back more particularly as a PF alongside KG.
Title: Re: Over/Under till Sully starts?
Post by: Evantime34 on January 05, 2013, 02:50:39 PM
I think the way they are playing him now is close to the best way. I think bringing him off the bench is the way to go. Bass has given us nothing off the bench this year but played much better with the starters. So for the team it is better for Sully to come off the bench.
Title: Re: Over/Under till Sully starts?
Post by: xmuscularghandix on January 05, 2013, 04:23:47 PM
I think it's become abundantly clear to Doc and the coaching staff that Sullinger is already a much better player than Brandon Bass. But until he get's the foul thing in order i think he'll continue to come off the bench.

I'd give it another month. Maybe after he grabs 16 rebounds in the Rookie Sophomore game the refs will throw him some respect.  ;)
Title: Re: Over/Under till Sully starts?
Post by: crimson_stallion on January 05, 2013, 05:22:06 PM
Trade Bass if you can for just about any big who can give you good minutes. If the player not in future plans, then an expiring contract to guarantee mid level next year.
Bass is a "big who can give you good minutes".

If by that you mean a guy who can't defend, can't catch a pass (he has horrible hands),  is a horrible passer and is petrified of shooting then sure.
Title: Re: Over/Under till Sully starts?
Post by: timobusa on January 05, 2013, 06:44:13 PM
Sully the Bully. This kid is going to be great, I hope the celtics keep him.
Title: Re: Over/Under till Sully starts?
Post by: jambr380 on January 05, 2013, 07:36:10 PM
Trade Bass if you can for just about any big who can give you good minutes. If the player not in future plans, then an expiring contract to guarantee mid level next year.
Bass is a "big who can give you good minutes".

If by that you mean a guy who can't defend, can't catch a pass (he has horrible hands),  is a horrible passer and is petrified of shooting then sure.

That is stupid - Bass was very effective last year and he hasn't incurred any major decline in physical skills. All of these guys are on edge waiting to find out whether or not they are being traded. Bass isn't great and he may not be what we need right now, but he has proven that he fills his role effectively and he is far from horrible.
Title: Re: Over/Under till Sully starts?
Post by: BudweiserCeltic on January 06, 2013, 08:58:34 AM
Trade Bass if you can for just about any big who can give you good minutes. If the player not in future plans, then an expiring contract to guarantee mid level next year.
Bass is a "big who can give you good minutes".

If by that you mean a guy who can't defend, can't catch a pass (he has horrible hands),  is a horrible passer and is petrified of shooting then sure.
All of these guys are on edge waiting to find out whether or not they are being traded.

That's a poor excuse for his struggles. He's struggled since the first game of the season (well, he played good in that game, but you get the point). You can't tell me he was worried all the way back there about being traded.

I think we should trade him though, but if we start playing well once again with him in the starting line-up, and Doc doesn't play him together with Sully, and he manages the big man rotation as he currently is when Wilcox returns too (Wilcox > Collins) then I have no problem with not doing anything on that regard, and simply look for a cheap pick-up.
Title: Re: Over/Under till Sully starts?
Post by: mgent on January 06, 2013, 10:08:05 AM
Kevin Garnett might be a top-five defender if we consider every NBA big over the past 25 years -- that's how special he is. He's still almost at the top of his game on that end and probably the best help defender in basketball (though Joakim Noah is closing fast). Sullinger, though, is proving to be almost as good on defense for the Celtics as KG, a fact that gets lost because so many of their teammates are not on their level.
Haha I knew this guy was an idiot.  Three ridiculous things to say in a row.  KG is arguably a top 3 defensive big over the past 60 years.  And give me Tyson Chandler, Serge Ibaka, or Dwight Howard as a help defender over Joakim Noah any day. 

The best:  Sullinger is almost good on defense as KG.  Do I need to say anything?  He's not even an average help defender.... and you're going to compare him to one of the best all time?  He's proven to be a decent man to man defender, but never makes rotations on time or provides any sense of help.  I mean, he's not as bad as Bass but that doesn't change the fact that he's easily near the bottom of the league.

I'm not sure how much you know about basketball if you don't think Sully is an awesome defender.  Stop watching the ball and just watch everything Sully does on defense for several possessions in a row.  He is constantly jumping to cover another guy's man while he recovers and then jumping back to his guy.  One after the other.  There is a reason he has started finishing games.

Now on the ball he is having some trouble with bigger and more athletic guys shooting over him.  On the pick he hasn't been outstanding but at least he retreats faster than Bass or Collins but as a help defender he has been just about perfect.
I never said he didn't run around and give the effort.  If he didn't he'd be in the D-League.  But watch some of the better help defenders in the league and tell me Sullinger does what they do. 

Yeah he finished the Sacramento game....   Bass was in foul trouble.  Maybe a couple others where Bass was cold and Doc wanted him to have some experience.  If Sullinger is a better rebounder AND near the top of the league in defense why the heck doesn't he have all of Bass's minutes?  Why is Bass averaging 6 minutes MORE?  Why did Doc completely stop giving Sullinger minutes at Center like he did to start the season?  Why isn't Doc raving about all the movement and aggression on the court like he did when Ryan freakin Hollins played with KG?  Why did Doc have to resort to one of the worst players in the league in Jason Collins because no big outside of KG was giving him anything on defense?

He started off the season as one of the worst help defenders in the league.  Of course he's gotten better, but let's look at this with even a shred of perspective.  I can't type this without laughing:  he's not almost as good as KG.  I guess that means I "don't know much about basketball."
Title: Re: Over/Under till Sully starts?
Post by: cman88 on January 06, 2013, 11:44:41 AM
Bass has actually played better the last couple games in the starting lineup IMO.

sure his ppg are down, but we have alot more depth than last year so he is going to get less shots and thus not score as much....right now his jumper hasnt been falling, but historically he has been an excelleng jump-shooter so I expect it to return.
Title: Re: Over/Under till Sully starts?
Post by: droopdog7 on January 06, 2013, 05:25:16 PM
Trade Bass if you can for just about any big who can give you good minutes. If the player not in future plans, then an expiring contract to guarantee mid level next year.
Bass is a "big who can give you good minutes".

If by that you mean a guy who can't defend, can't catch a pass (he has horrible hands),  is a horrible passer and is petrified of shooting then sure.
And yet, you still want to trade bass for a bigger, competent player?  Ou can't say he sucks then wnt an upgrade in return.

Bass is probably worth a ryan hollins.  If you would settle for that, then you're good.