CelticsStrong
Celtics Basketball => Celtics Talk => Topic started by: KG Living Legend on January 03, 2013, 02:39:44 PM
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If his buddy Kevin Mchale, never sent Garnett to the Celtics. And obviously Mchale would never have sent him to the Lakers the other option he had.
We traded a bunch of crap to get KG. He was so lucky to knoe Mchale. Big Al was the only good piece in that deal. Is there anyone here saying that Danny is a great GM if that trade never happened.
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If the trade didn't happen, Danny would have made a different trade. Perhaps he makes a trade for Pau Gasol. There was pretty much no way that he was going to let Ratliff's deal expire without getting anything back.
As an aside, based upon the returns other teams have gotten for star players, is it really so hard to believe that Big Al + cap relief + picks was the best deal on the table? I've never understood the "McHale gave us KG to help his buddy out" angle.
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If the trade didn't happen, Danny would have made a different trade. Perhaps he makes a trade for Pau Gasol. There was pretty much no way that he was going to let Ratliff's deal expire without getting anything back.
yup Gasol would have been the main target
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Who knows?
Maybe if he didn't make the KG trade, he would have made another move that lifted the team up.
I think Danny has shown the patience, understanding of the cap, and ability to think outside the box, that it takes to make a good GM. But like with any GM, you need a little luck. Whether it is a bounce of the pingpong balls, or whether it is having a superstar come on the market, when you have the pieces to make the deal happen.
Also, to suggest Big Al was the only good piece in that deal is incorrect. Ratliff's contract was absolutely crucial to making that deal happen, and they also had a number of draft picks to include to sweeten it, and even guys like Gomes and Green had enough value at that point to make it happen.
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OK great, lets say we get Gasol. Does Ray Allen want to play with Gasol? Doubtful.
If you don't think Danny's relationship with Mchale had a lot do with him coming here then your not real familiar with business transactions.
Bottom line extremely doubtful we win a championship in the Ainge Era without the Garnett trade. And Danny is no more that an above average GM.
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If the trade didn't happen, Danny would have made a different trade. Perhaps he makes a trade for Pau Gasol. There was pretty much no way that he was going to let Ratliff's deal expire without getting anything back.
As an aside, based upon the returns other teams have gotten for star players, is it really so hard to believe that Big Al + cap relief + picks was the best deal on the table? I've never understood the "McHale gave us KG to help his buddy out" angle.
I really think we'd have gotten Gasol instead.
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OK great, lets say we get Gasol. Does Ray Allen want to play with Gasol? Doubtful.
If you don't think Danny's relationship with Mchale had a lot do with him coming here then your not real familiar with business transactions.
Bottom line extremely doubtful we win a championship in the Ainge Era without the Garnett trade. And Danny is no more that an above average GM.
And Danny's relationship with certain agents delivered him Posey, and has greased the skids of other deals. Then there are the stories of no one accepting Kahn's calls, because all of the other GMs thinks he's a (well, something I won't say on this site).
Like you said, its part of the business, so why is it being held against him, that he uses his personal connections as a competitive advantage?
You can play that what if game all you want, but when it comes down to it, Danny DID trade for Kevin Garnett. Danny DID turn a team at the bottom of the lottery to a championship team. Danny DID get that team back to a second Finals, and another ECF.
That's what happened. What's the point of talking about what ifs, other than to just manufacture reasons to bash a guy who has had a lot of success doing his job?
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OK great, lets say we get Gasol. Does Ray Allen want to play with Gasol? Doubtful.
If you don't think Danny's relationship with Mchale had a lot do with him coming here then your not real familiar with business transactions.
Bottom line extremely doubtful we win a championship in the Ainge Era without the Garnett trade. And Danny is no more that an above average GM.
Why wouldnt Ray want to play with Gasol? Gasol is one of the leagues best big men (off year this year yes) but was playing very good basketball at the time. He is also a great passer. And if we didnt get KG I bet he was our prime target. There was no way we werent going to make a trade for a third superstar at that time.
Would we have had a different team absolutely. A championship? Who knows. But Ray was already on the team regardless of who we traded for. Why would it have been Rays decision on whom he wanted to play with?
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OK great, lets say we get Gasol. Does Ray Allen want to play with Gasol? Doubtful.
If you don't think Danny's relationship with Mchale had a lot do with him coming here then your not real familiar with business transactions.
Bottom line extremely doubtful we win a championship in the Ainge Era without the Garnett trade. And Danny is no more that an above average GM.
Why wouldnt Ray want to play with Gasol? Gasol is one of the leagues best big men (off year this year yes) but was playing very good basketball at the time. He is also a great passer. And if we didnt get KG I bet he was our prime target. There was no way we werent going to make a trade for a third superstar at that time.
Would we have had a different team absolutely. A championship? Who knows. But Ray was already on the team regardless of who we traded for. Why would it have been Rays decision on whom he wanted to play with?
It's not an off year, he's been dealing with chronic knee issues. But despite all the grief he was catching on CB, he was the league's second best center when he was starting on that position for the Lakers.
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If the trade didn't happen, Danny would have made a different trade. Perhaps he makes a trade for Pau Gasol. There was pretty much no way that he was going to let Ratliff's deal expire without getting anything back.
As an aside, based upon the returns other teams have gotten for star players, is it really so hard to believe that Big Al + cap relief + picks was the best deal on the table? I've never understood the "McHale gave us KG to help his buddy out" angle.
I totally agree. The trade was pretty fair, in my opinion. Of course [in hindsight] the Celtics ended up getting the better end of the deal, but there was certainly no guarantee that KG would still be productive today. Also, we didn't force the Wolves to give up a very productive Big Al to Utah for Kosta Koufos or to choose Flynn over Stephen Curry in the 09 draft. The other pieces had potential, but those two pieces, along with the cap relief were the main parts of the deal.
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If you don't think Danny's relationship with Mchale had a lot do with him coming here then your not real familiar with business transactions. .
True. Because GMs only trade with their friends / former teammates. And because so many other teams were offering young big men with near-all-star potential, and insured expiring contracts.
Danny paid value, especially in terms of a lot of the other superstar trades we've seen.
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The preferred options were
1. Draft Durant
2. Draft Horford. I read somewhere if the Celts had a chance at Horford, that Ainge would of been 50-50 to trade the pick that brought us Allen.
3. Trade for Ray Allen and KG (which happened and won us a ring)
4. Trade for Ray Allen still with the 5th pick. We would of had a lineup of Perk, Big Al, PP, Allen, Rondo that would of been interesting to watch.
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If you don't think Danny's relationship with Mchale had a lot do with him coming here then your not real familiar with business transactions. .
True. Because GMs only trade with their friends / former teammates. And because so many other teams were offering young big men with near-all-star potential, and insured expiring contracts.
Even if it played a role though, why does it matter? Isn't that how business works? Its all about favors and relationships. That is part of the job description.
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If you don't think Danny's relationship with Mchale had a lot do with him coming here then your not real familiar with business transactions. .
True. Because GMs only trade with their friends / former teammates. And because so many other teams were offering young big men with near-all-star potential, and insured expiring contracts.
Even if it played a role though, why does it matter? Isn't that how business works? Its all about favors and relationships. That is part of the job description.
If the contention is that some GMs have better working relationships than others, I obviously agree with this. As you say, building those relationships is part of the business.
However, there's this view among some fans that the KG deal was a "wink, wink" deal, where McHale took an inferior deal from the Celtics to help out his former franchise. I think that's nonsense.
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As others have mentioned, he would have traded for Gasol. Danny was always about acquiring assets and trading them for veteran upgrades.
WE're in limbo right now. Tail end of a short-lived contender and the start of a rebuild. He's already seeking assets.
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If his buddy Kevin Mchale, never sent Garnett to the Celtics. And obviously Mchale would never have sent him to the Lakers the other option he had.
We traded a bunch of crap to get KG. He was so lucky to knoe Mchale. Big Al was the only good piece in that deal. Is there anyone here saying that Danny is a great GM if that trade never happened.
The trade did happen. If that specific trade hadn't happened, Danny would have made another. Who knows what the result of that "other" trade might have been.
I don't think Danny is a "great" GM, but I also don't get why people give him a lot of grief. He's a good GM. I'd prefer him than most of the other GMs in the league.
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I don't get why so many fans are so desperate to downgrade what Danny has done here. From where I sit, he has made the best of the assets he's had. Drafting guys like Delonte, Rondo, Big Baby, Avery, Sully late in the 1st round, gettting guys like Jet, Rasheed, and JO for the MLE - he does his job.
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I don't get why so many fans are so desperate to downgrade what Danny has done here. From where I sit, he has made the best of the assets he's had. Drafting guys like Delonte, Rondo, Big Baby, Avery, Sully late in the 1st round, gettting guys like Jet, Rasheed, and JO for the MLE - he does his job.
Yeah, I know these things are results oriented, but from the 2009 off-season until the present, I think the vast majority of fans have been thrilled with the off-seasons Danny has put together.
2009: Rasheed + Marquis seemed like a coup
2010: JO + Shaq + Delonte had fans thrilled
2011: Adding Terry + Lee + Darko + Barbosa, and keeping our own free agents, seemed like an excellent off-season
Danny dropped the ball in the 2008 off-season, perhaps, but since then he's done everything he could do with our limited resources. Not everything has worked out, but the game plan has been solid.
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Danny has more tgan done a goid job. He gets a big fat A in my book! And he's gonna make another excellent move here real soon that will make the naysayers eat their words. We have championship talent as currently constructed, the pieces in Terry & Lee & Green just doesn't fit well in our team because they are redundant. A shakeup positively DMC,D-12 or a blindside star we didn't see as possible. Or a total retooling where we start over with young assets & take a flyer on Greg Oden with Rondo, Bradley,Green & Sullinger will suit me just fine. Either way Ainge has been a top 5 GM in my opinion. You can't name 4 better.
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Then we see a deal for Gasol based around Ratliff's deal and Jefferson.
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Ainge has been a great drafter for the most part, which is one of his best qualities as GM. Missing Marc Gasol that year he took Gabe Pruitt was a big one. He made up for it a little with the Big Baby pick. We should have nabbed both.
Also, to correct his own mistake with the Walker trade, he did the Telfair trade shipping out LaFrentz along with the #7 pick (Foye). Rudy Gay was just sitting there for the taking if he wanted to stand pat.
Memphis is happy they got both these guys.
If he never got KG, Danny might have a core of Rondo, Bradley, Green, Gay, Perk, Baby, Al Jeff and who knows what else. We'd certainly have had better draft picks if we still sucked in 2008, 2009, etc.
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If you don't think Danny's relationship with Mchale had a lot do with him coming here then your not real familiar with business transactions. .
True. Because GMs only trade with their friends / former teammates. And because so many other teams were offering young big men with near-all-star potential, and insured expiring contracts.
Even if it played a role though, why does it matter? Isn't that how business works? Its all about favors and relationships. That is part of the job description.
If the contention is that some GMs have better working relationships than others, I obviously agree with this. As you say, building those relationships is part of the business.
However, there's this view among some fans that the KG deal was a "wink, wink" deal, where McHale took an inferior deal from the Celtics to help out his former franchise. I think that's nonsense.
Absolutely agree with Roy here. Businessmen generally do not hurt their own business interests for the purpose of helping out a friend. Yes, all things being equal they'll deal with the friend, but McHale's overiding interest in any Garnett was to make the Minnesota Timberwolves better, not to give his buddy a break.
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I agree that Danny would've landed Pau Gasol. That was the other star who became available and Danny had the horses to land him. I think he could've done so without offering Big Al too. So that would've left Boston with a starting five of:
PG: Rajon Rondo
SG: Ray Allen
SF: Paul Pierce
PF: Al Jefferson
C: Pau Gasol
Not a bad looking team at all. Light defensively but loaded with offensive talent. I think that team still has a very good chance of making it to the finals over the next few years from 2008-2011.
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I agree that Danny would've landed Pau Gasol. That was the other star who became available and Danny had the horses to land him. I think he could've done so without offering Big Al too. So that would've left Boston with a starting five of:
PG: Rajon Rondo
SG: Ray Allen
SF: Paul Pierce
PF: Al Jefferson
C: Pau Gasol
Not a bad looking team at all. Light defensively but loaded with offensive talent. I think that team still has a very good chance of making it to the finals over the next few years from 2008-2011.
Yeah, at the time I was optimistic that we could get Gasol without moving Big Al. Immediate cap relief + Green + Gomes + picks.
Marc Gasol turned out to be a nice return, but I wonder if that package would have gotten it done.
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I agree that Danny would've landed Pau Gasol. That was the other star who became available and Danny had the horses to land him. I think he could've done so without offering Big Al too. So that would've left Boston with a starting five of:
PG: Rajon Rondo
SG: Ray Allen
SF: Paul Pierce
PF: Al Jefferson
C: Pau Gasol
Not a bad looking team at all. Light defensively but loaded with offensive talent. I think that team still has a very good chance of making it to the finals over the next few years from 2008-2011.
Yeah, at the time I was optimistic that we could get Gasol without moving Big Al. Immediate cap relief + Green + Gomes + picks.
Marc Gasol turned out to be a nice return, but I wonder if that package would have gotten it done.
Not sure why Memphis would have preferred Green over Marc Gasol. For that matter, hindsight is 20/20, but I would take Marc instead of Pau.
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Now what if Danny takes Marc Gasol at 30 in 07 and Davis, plus Dragic in 08? Imagine having Perkins, KG, Rondo, Allen, Garnett with Gasol, Davis and Dragic off the bench?
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I agree that Danny would've landed Pau Gasol. That was the other star who became available and Danny had the horses to land him. I think he could've done so without offering Big Al too. So that would've left Boston with a starting five of:
PG: Rajon Rondo
SG: Ray Allen
SF: Paul Pierce
PF: Al Jefferson
C: Pau Gasol
Not a bad looking team at all. Light defensively but loaded with offensive talent. I think that team still has a very good chance of making it to the finals over the next few years from 2008-2011.
Yeah, at the time I was optimistic that we could get Gasol without moving Big Al. Immediate cap relief + Green + Gomes + picks.
Marc Gasol turned out to be a nice return, but I wonder if that package would have gotten it done.
Not sure why Memphis would have preferred Green over Marc Gasol. For that matter, hindsight is 20/20, but I would take Marc instead of Pau.
Who was saying that in 2007, though? Gasol had just fallen to the 48th pick in the draft. Nobody seemed all that high on him as an impact prospect.
Of course in hindsight, Marc Gasol trumps any player we could have given. However, I don't think that was the perception at the time.
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I agree that Danny would've landed Pau Gasol. That was the other star who became available and Danny had the horses to land him. I think he could've done so without offering Big Al too. So that would've left Boston with a starting five of:
PG: Rajon Rondo
SG: Ray Allen
SF: Paul Pierce
PF: Al Jefferson
C: Pau Gasol
Not a bad looking team at all. Light defensively but loaded with offensive talent. I think that team still has a very good chance of making it to the finals over the next few years from 2008-2011.
Yeah, at the time I was optimistic that we could get Gasol without moving Big Al. Immediate cap relief + Green + Gomes + picks.
Marc Gasol turned out to be a nice return, but I wonder if that package would have gotten it done.
Not sure why Memphis would have preferred Green over Marc Gasol. For that matter, hindsight is 20/20, but I would take Marc instead of Pau.
Who was saying that in 2007, though? Gasol had just fallen to the 48th pick in the draft. Nobody seemed all that high on him as an impact prospect.
Of course in hindsight, Marc Gasol trumps any player we could have given. However, I don't think that was the perception at the time.
I remember pretty specifically Kobe joking at the time that they could've got it done and not include Marc. Basically, he was kind of doing a Kobe-dig on how little the package was, and also hinting at how little value Marc had.
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BTW, are we sure Jeff Green was Danny's guy? I thought the target for that pick was Yi.