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Celtics Basketball => Celtics Talk => Topic started by: rondohondo on January 03, 2013, 01:48:53 PM

Title: Doc mentioned how C's need a backup pg on WEEI today
Post by: rondohondo on January 03, 2013, 01:48:53 PM
He was on the Dennis and Callahan show this morning and mentioned how the C's need someone to run the offense off the bench.  Said Rondo can't play all 48 mins and run the team effectively and that someone else needs to step up and have the ability to run the offense while Rondo gets some rest.

Obviously a big man is the most pressing need, but do we also need a backup PG? or should we stick with Terry and tell him to be more aggressive?

What backup pg's would you be interested in ?
Title: Re: Doc mentioned how C's need a backup pg on WEEI today
Post by: droopdog7 on January 03, 2013, 01:51:19 PM
Amazing how rondo has never had a true backup.  At this point, they can't just bring in another guy in an already crowded back court.  If they can swing a trade, and I doubt there would be much interest in lee, barbosa, or terry, then that would make the most sense.
Title: Re: Doc mentioned how C's need a backup pg on WEEI today
Post by: clover on January 03, 2013, 01:51:55 PM
I think they'll give Bradley a chance to fulfill that role, as well as get time at the 2.
Title: Re: Doc mentioned how C's need a backup pg on WEEI today
Post by: KGs Knee on January 03, 2013, 01:53:14 PM
Bradley is not a PG, he just has a PGs body.
Title: Re: Doc mentioned how C's need a backup pg on WEEI today
Post by: Chris on January 03, 2013, 01:54:53 PM
Doc has been saying this all year.  It surprises me, because I think Terry is a pretty good backup PG, but Doc doesn't want to play him there.
Title: Re: Doc mentioned how C's need a backup pg on WEEI today
Post by: wdleehi on January 03, 2013, 01:57:43 PM
Doc has been saying this all year.  It surprises me, because I think Terry is a pretty good backup PG, but Doc doesn't want to play him there.


He is still trying to squeeze Terry into Ray role. 



I agree, give Terry the ball when he comes off the bench.
Title: Re: Doc mentioned how C's need a backup pg on WEEI today
Post by: Chris on January 03, 2013, 01:58:53 PM
Doc has been saying this all year.  It surprises me, because I think Terry is a pretty good backup PG, but Doc doesn't want to play him there.


He is still trying to squeeze Terry into Ray role. 



I agree, give Terry the ball when he comes off the bench.

Yeah, I am not a Doc basher, but this is one place where I have a real problem.  He needs to do a better job of working the system around the players he has, and stop trying to hold on to the past.  And that goes for some of the players too.
Title: Re: Doc mentioned how C's need a backup pg on WEEI today
Post by: BudweiserCeltic on January 03, 2013, 02:02:48 PM
Doc is making a fool out of himself, and keeps giving me reasons to doubt if he's the man for the job.

Nothing he's done this season has made any sense.
Title: Re: Doc mentioned how C's need a backup pg on WEEI today
Post by: Kane3387 on January 03, 2013, 02:11:41 PM
Trade Lee for a big and bring in Delonte.
Title: Re: Doc mentioned how C's need a backup pg on WEEI today
Post by: LarBrd33 on January 03, 2013, 02:23:36 PM
Boston celtics.  1 starting PG.  0 Starting SG.  2 Starting SF's.  1 starting PF.  0 Starting C.   

... 4 backup SGS
... 2 Backup PFs
... 0 Backup C
... 0 Backup PG

Dats a problem.
Title: Re: Doc mentioned how C's need a backup pg on WEEI today
Post by: lantinm on January 03, 2013, 02:47:30 PM
It will be interesting to hear what Danny has to say about this team (in about 13 minutes).
Title: Re: Doc mentioned how C's need a backup pg on WEEI today
Post by: kozlodoev on January 03, 2013, 02:52:27 PM
Boston celtics.  1 starting PG.  0 Starting SG.  2 Starting SF's.  1 starting PF.  0 Starting C.   

... 4 backup SGS
... 2 Backup PFs
... 0 Backup C
... 0 Backup PG

Dats a problem.
No problem, based on your conclusions we should have about 5 roster spots to work with.
Title: Re: Doc mentioned how C's need a backup pg on WEEI today
Post by: MBunge on January 03, 2013, 03:29:33 PM
Doc has been saying this all year.  It surprises me, because I think Terry is a pretty good backup PG, but Doc doesn't want to play him there.

This backup point guard excuse has worn a little thin.  It seems like it's always an issue, but in just the last three years Boston has had Keyon Dooling, E'Twaun Moore, Carlos Arroyo, Nate Robinson and Eddie House to take the job.  None of those guys are great, but somebody out of that group should have been able to do the job.  I mean, frickin' Nate Robinson is now playing 21 minutes a game with Thibs in Chicago.

I think the back up PG issues have as much to do with what Doc wants out of that job as the available players.

Mike
Title: Re: Doc mentioned how C's need a backup pg on WEEI today
Post by: pearljammer10 on January 03, 2013, 03:33:12 PM
Doc has been saying this all year.  It surprises me, because I think Terry is a pretty good backup PG, but Doc doesn't want to play him there.


He is still trying to squeeze Terry into Ray role. 



I agree, give Terry the ball when he comes off the bench.

This is our best option. Unless we trade Lee/Terry and Barbosa along with Bass and or Green for a big and a backup. Our back court is crowded enough as it is.
Title: Re: Doc mentioned how C's need a backup pg on WEEI today
Post by: cltc5 on January 03, 2013, 03:45:10 PM
Yes clearly another bench player is what we need ::)
Title: Re: Doc mentioned how C's need a backup pg on WEEI today
Post by: jambr380 on January 03, 2013, 03:55:20 PM
Boston celtics.  1 starting PG.  0 Starting SG.  2 Starting SF's.  1 starting PF.  0 Starting C.   

... 4 backup SGS
... 2 Backup PFs
... 0 Backup C
... 0 Backup PG

Dats a problem.

Basically - and I agree that the composition of the team is a bit suspect, but Avery / Lee are starting caliber SGs in today's NBA and Terry is a combo guard. I totally disagree with Doc that we need another PG off the bench. Terry, Bradley, or Barbosa are all very capable of playing a few minutes of PG while Rondo is out. No, they are not the playmaker Rondo is, but I thought that was one of the main reasons of bringing Terry in - to become an aggressive scoring type of PG, totally different than Rondo.

Something needs to be happen soon, because this is just crazy talk by Doc.
Title: Re: Doc mentioned how C's need a backup pg on WEEI today
Post by: action781 on January 03, 2013, 03:57:47 PM
Doc has been saying this all year.  It surprises me, because I think Terry is a pretty good backup PG, but Doc doesn't want to play him there.


He is still trying to squeeze Terry into Ray role. 



I agree, give Terry the ball when he comes off the bench.

Yes and yes to both of you.

While I do think it should be Terry... what happened to Barbosa?  Through the end of November, he was getting good chunks of minutes as our backup point guard, I found him to be playing just fine, and our record was 9-7 over that time.  Since Dec. 1, he's pretty much been pulled out of that role and our record has been 5-10.
Title: Re: Doc mentioned how C's need a backup pg on WEEI today
Post by: ManUp on January 03, 2013, 04:40:12 PM
There's no reason Terry can't run the point for 12 minutes (That's four 3 minutes stretches) a night. Most good back up points aren't as good as Terry. IMO, that is the least of our problems.
Title: Re: Doc mentioned how C's need a backup pg on WEEI today
Post by: j804 on January 03, 2013, 04:43:38 PM
There's no reason Terry can't run the point for 12 minutes (That's four 3 minutes stretches) a night. Most good back up points aren't as good as Terry. IMO, that is the least of our problems.
I dont know last year or the year before he could. Hes lost a step now and seems to always be hounded without anything to do when he has the ball a la Ray Allen.
Title: Re: Doc mentioned how C's need a backup pg on WEEI today
Post by: kozlodoev on January 03, 2013, 04:46:21 PM
what happened to Barbosa?  Through the end of November, he was getting good chunks of minutes as our backup point guard, I found him to be playing just fine, and our record was 9-7 over that time.  Since Dec. 1, he's pretty much been pulled out of that role and our record has been 5-10.
He stopped getting time when it became obvious that his idea of "manning the point" is putting his head down and driving to the hoop every time. It gets old quickly.
Title: Re: Doc mentioned how C's need a backup pg on WEEI today
Post by: nickagneta on January 03, 2013, 04:50:11 PM
I think Doc is right. The offense sputters like hell whenever Rondo is out of the game because no one else on the team can run an offense without simply trying to create their own one on one offense. Neither Lee, nor Bradley nor Terry nor Barbosa are capable of running a team oriented offense without just trying to create their own shot first and foremost.

Personally I think we need to package Bass, Green and Lee for a starting caliber big and a real back up PG.
Title: Re: Doc mentioned how C's need a backup pg on WEEI today
Post by: Interceptor on January 03, 2013, 04:52:19 PM
He stopped getting time when it became obvious that his idea of "manning the point" is putting his head down and driving to the hoop every time. It gets old quickly.
Wasn't that the point, though? Barbosa tries to find a hole in the defense, and he'll either make a basket, get fouled while shooting (sometimes they even call it), or pass out to someone else.

I actually thought it worked pretty well, honestly.
Title: Re: Doc mentioned how C's need a backup pg on WEEI today
Post by: Mr October on January 03, 2013, 04:57:37 PM
Good backup PG's are rarely available. Terry pretty much has to be that guy.

Unfortunately Terry appears to be at least as over paid as Jeff Green so far. Terry's been too slow to create space for his shot. And looks horrible on defense.

Sadly the whole team looks like what they are, a completely overhauled roster outside of about 5 players. And Pierce's play has really regressed. He can't get around anybody anymore.  :(

I think more time will sort most of their problems out to be honest.
Title: Re: Doc mentioned how C's need a backup pg on WEEI today
Post by: eja117 on January 03, 2013, 05:27:31 PM
Doc might be amazed how well backups play when there's an actual center out there to get rebs and defensive stops. But we traded ours for Jeff Green and a draft pick.
Title: Re: Doc mentioned how C's need a backup pg on WEEI today
Post by: coco on January 03, 2013, 05:32:35 PM
He was on the Dennis and Callahan show this morning and mentioned how the C's need someone to run the offense off the bench.  Said Rondo can't play all 48 mins and run the team effectively and that someone else needs to step up and have the ability to run the offense while Rondo gets some rest.

Obviously a big man is the most pressing need, but do we also need a backup PG? or should we stick with Terry and tell him to be more aggressive?

What backup pg's would you be interested in ?

Doc,  Rondo shouldn't have to be creating shots for others if you had a system.  Lots of coaches win without a true PG never mind a good backup PG.  Have you heard of the Princeton offense?  Backdoors? Triangle Offense?  Give-n-go? High Post offense?  Can you name Tony Parker's backup?
Title: Re: Doc mentioned how C's need a backup pg on WEEI today
Post by: lightspeed5 on January 03, 2013, 05:33:53 PM
Boston celtics.  1 starting PG.  0 Starting SG.  2 Starting SF's.  1 starting PF.  0 Starting C.   

... 4 backup SGS
... 2 Backup PFs
... 0 Backup C
... 0 Backup PG

Dats a problem.
Just letting you know, when KG plays center, he is voted in as a starter in the all star game, and when he played  fulltime power forward beginning of last year, he had his worst career numbers.

He is not a fulltime starting power forward anymore.
Title: Re: Doc mentioned how C's need a backup pg on WEEI today
Post by: biggs on January 03, 2013, 05:46:32 PM
Trade for Andre Miller.  He and Pierce are old friends and I think he's the type of player we could trade for.
Title: Re: Doc mentioned how C's need a backup pg on WEEI today
Post by: MBunge on January 03, 2013, 05:46:49 PM
If Doc had had the stones to just make KG play at the 5 in the first place, wouldn't we have just held onto Big Baby?  He's only averaging 16 pts and 7.9 boards starting for Orlando this year?

Mike
Title: Re: Doc mentioned how C's need a backup pg on WEEI today
Post by: Who on January 03, 2013, 06:23:24 PM
Yes, Terry has been a flop. Boston would be better off with a more traditional backup PG.
Title: Re: Doc mentioned how C's need a backup pg on WEEI today
Post by: snively on January 03, 2013, 06:26:08 PM
Trade for Andre Miller.  He and Pierce are old friends and I think he's the type of player we could trade for.

Where did you read they are old friends?  I remember them quarreling on the 2002 USA team that went down in flames.
Title: Re: Doc mentioned how C's need a backup pg on WEEI today
Post by: snively on January 03, 2013, 06:30:06 PM
Yes, Terry has been a flop. Boston would be better off with a more traditional backup PG.

Do you think age has robbed him of the quickness that made him a dangerous shot creator off the dribble, or do you think the problem is more with the fit/utilization of him on this squad?

I can't figure it out.  His usage% is extremely low relative to his career at this point, which is pretty baffling considering how much of a negative he is defensively and on the boards. 
Title: Re: Doc mentioned how C's need a backup pg on WEEI today
Post by: Who on January 03, 2013, 06:33:05 PM
Trade Lee for a big and bring in Delonte.
I miss Delonte. I wonder what he did for Danny to discard him away so readily.

It's a shame because he is a really good player who could help this team (and many others).
Title: Re: Doc mentioned how C's need a backup pg on WEEI today
Post by: Who on January 03, 2013, 06:36:45 PM
Yes, Terry has been a flop. Boston would be better off with a more traditional backup PG.

Do you think age has robbed him of the quickness that made him a dangerous shot creator off the dribble, or do you think the problem is more with the fit/utilization of him on this squad?

I can't figure it out.  His usage% is extremely low relative to his career at this point, which is pretty baffling considering how much of a negative he is defensively and on the boards.

How Doc has been using him (as a spot up and catch and shoot scorer) + how PG-centric the offense has become under Doc. He needs to open up the offense more to allow guys like Terry and Green more freedom.

Those are the main issues for me.
Title: Re: Doc mentioned how C's need a backup pg on WEEI today
Post by: kozlodoev on January 03, 2013, 06:37:05 PM
Trade Lee for a big and bring in Delonte.
I miss Delonte. I wonder what he did for Danny to discard him away so readily.

It's a shame because he is a really good player who could help this team (and many others).
Probably the same thing he did for Dallas to discard him in pretty much the same way.
Title: Re: Doc mentioned how C's need a backup pg on WEEI today
Post by: j804 on January 03, 2013, 06:41:05 PM
Yes, Terry has been a flop. Boston would be better off with a more traditional backup PG.

Do you think age has robbed him of the quickness that made him a dangerous shot creator off the dribble, or do you think the problem is more with the fit/utilization of him on this squad?

I can't figure it out.  His usage% is extremely low relative to his career at this point, which is pretty baffling considering how much of a negative he is defensively and on the boards.

How Doc has been using him (as a spot up and catch and shoot scorer) + how PG-centric the offense has become under Doc. He needs to open up the offense more to allow guys like Terry and Green more freedom.

Those are the main issues for me.
I think he's lost a step you seen him with the ball he can't create anything
Title: Re: Doc mentioned how C's need a backup pg on WEEI today
Post by: Who on January 03, 2013, 06:44:47 PM
Yes, Terry has been a flop. Boston would be better off with a more traditional backup PG.

Do you think age has robbed him of the quickness that made him a dangerous shot creator off the dribble, or do you think the problem is more with the fit/utilization of him on this squad?

I can't figure it out.  His usage% is extremely low relative to his career at this point, which is pretty baffling considering how much of a negative he is defensively and on the boards.

How Doc has been using him (as a spot up and catch and shoot scorer) + how PG-centric the offense has become under Doc. He needs to open up the offense more to allow guys like Terry and Green more freedom.

Those are the main issues for me.
I think he's lost a step you seen him with the ball he can't create anything

Terry hasn't been able to create anything outside of the PnR off the dribble for a few years now.

I see nothing different in him from in his physical capacity to what he did for Dallas over the last two years.
Title: Re: Doc mentioned how C's need a backup pg on WEEI today
Post by: j804 on January 03, 2013, 06:49:29 PM
Yes, Terry has been a flop. Boston would be better off with a more traditional backup PG.

Do you think age has robbed him of the quickness that made him a dangerous shot creator off the dribble, or do you think the problem is more with the fit/utilization of him on this squad?

I can't figure it out.  His usage% is extremely low relative to his career at this point, which is pretty baffling considering how much of a negative he is defensively and on the boards.

How Doc has been using him (as a spot up and catch and shoot scorer) + how PG-centric the offense has become under Doc. He needs to open up the offense more to allow guys like Terry and Green more freedom.

Those are the main issues for me.
I think he's lost a step you seen him with the ball he can't create anything

Terry hasn't been able to create anything outside of the PnR off the dribble for a few years now.

I see nothing different in him from in his physical capacity to what he did for Dallas over the last two years.
He cant even do that now basically if nobody is drawing the defense in and finding him wide open he is useless
Title: Re: Doc mentioned how C's need a backup pg on WEEI today
Post by: kozlodoev on January 03, 2013, 06:51:13 PM
He cant even do that now basically if nobody is drawing the defense in and finding him wide open he is useless
So he's pretty much what Ray Allen was for us last year.
Title: Re: Doc mentioned how C's need a backup pg on WEEI today
Post by: LooseCannon on January 03, 2013, 07:27:37 PM
I've been saying this for years.  The Celtics should have made an effort to get a young PG (with a second-round pick or as an undrafted free agent) who is in no way an undersized SG who the team is trying to fit into a combo guard role.
Title: Re: Doc mentioned how C's need a backup pg on WEEI today
Post by: Clench123 on January 03, 2013, 07:38:26 PM
People are calling for Doc to use Terry, play Terry, have Terry run the offense.  Have we been watching thesame Terry?  The guy has been atrocious this season. So has Pierce, Jeff, and Lee.  None of these is Doc's fault.  Can't believe people are still blaming Doc. 

They accuse Doc of not utilizing the group and play to their strengths.  Didn't Doc simplify things and go back to basics and fundamentals?  Fundamentals can't be complicated to group of professional basketball players.

People has to be out of their minds to be blaming Doc at this point for what is clearly and completely the players' fault.  No effort, no pride, no sense of urgency, just terrible overrall work ethic.
Title: Re: Doc mentioned how C's need a backup pg on WEEI today
Post by: biggs on January 03, 2013, 07:42:53 PM
Trade for Andre Miller.  He and Pierce are old friends and I think he's the type of player we could trade for.

Where did you read they are old friends?  I remember them quarreling on the 2002 USA team that went down in flames.

They both grew up in LA
Title: Re: Doc mentioned how C's need a backup pg on WEEI today
Post by: clover on January 03, 2013, 08:01:54 PM
Bradley is not a PG, he just has a PGs body.

Doesn't mean they're not still trying.  Bradley made a point of saying how he was studying the point during his rehab, and Doc says he'll get time there when Rondo's not playing.

The team actually did surprisingly well in the few games Bradley started at the point last year.  He lacks some traditional skills, but the ball moved and the team won.
Title: Re: Doc mentioned how C's need a backup pg on WEEI today
Post by: Celtics4ever on January 03, 2013, 08:06:21 PM
Quote
Doesn't mean they're not still trying.  Bradley made a point of saying how he was studying the point during his rehab, and Doc says he'll get time there when Rondo's not playing

This is not a test.   You can only learn so much from studying if you don't have the instincts.  Basketball IQ and the like is largely an innate gift.

They tried this last year and it was a disaster.   He is a shooting guard in a PG body.
Title: Re: Doc mentioned how C's need a backup pg on WEEI today
Post by: Boston Garden Leprechaun on January 03, 2013, 08:17:30 PM
what happened to Barbosa?  Through the end of November, he was getting good chunks of minutes as our backup point guard, I found him to be playing just fine, and our record was 9-7 over that time.  Since Dec. 1, he's pretty much been pulled out of that role and our record has been 5-10.
He stopped getting time when it became obvious that his idea of "manning the point" is putting his head down and driving to the hoop every time. It gets old quickly.

not a fan of an attacking team i see eh? It seems we move the ball better when rajon is OUT!
Title: Re: Doc mentioned how C's need a backup pg on WEEI today
Post by: Boston Garden Leprechaun on January 03, 2013, 08:19:53 PM
He stopped getting time when it became obvious that his idea of "manning the point" is putting his head down and driving to the hoop every time. It gets old quickly.
Wasn't that the point, though? Barbosa tries to find a hole in the defense, and he'll either make a basket, get fouled while shooting (sometimes they even call it), or pass out to someone else.

I actually thought it worked pretty well, honestly.

thank You! TP for u!
Title: Re: Doc mentioned how C's need a backup pg on WEEI today
Post by: ScottHow on January 03, 2013, 09:15:16 PM
small need
Title: Re: Doc mentioned how C's need a backup pg on WEEI today
Post by: j804 on January 03, 2013, 09:16:12 PM
He cant even do that now basically if nobody is drawing the defense in and finding him wide open he is useless
So he's pretty much what Ray Allen was for us last year.
Yeah basically still I'd probably rather have Ray >:(
Title: Re: Doc mentioned how C's need a backup pg on WEEI today
Post by: TripleOT on January 03, 2013, 09:37:47 PM
Doc starting Collins at center and then saying he needs a backup PG is like someone almost cutting his arm off with a chainsaw and saying he needs a manicurist instead of a doctor. 

This team desperately needs a true center who can muck up the paint, rebound, and play at least a little offense.
Title: Re: Doc mentioned how C's need a backup pg on WEEI today
Post by: Boston Garden Leprechaun on January 03, 2013, 10:10:56 PM
Doc starting Collins at center and then saying he needs a backup PG is like someone almost cutting his arm off with a chainsaw and saying he needs a manicurist instead of a doctor. 

This team desperately needs a true center who can muck up the paint, rebound, and play at least a little offense.

It reeks of what he thinks in his mind as a FORMER GUARD. This was stated the other day in a thread and if it is true it is pure insanity. Looks like we now have some anecdotal evidence of it being true. sad indeed. SMH.
Title: Re: Doc mentioned how C's need a backup pg on WEEI today
Post by: nickagneta on January 04, 2013, 12:17:31 PM
Doc starting Collins at center and then saying he needs a backup PG is like someone almost cutting his arm off with a chainsaw and saying he needs a manicurist instead of a doctor. 

This team desperately needs a true center who can muck up the paint, rebound, and play at least a little offense.

It reeks of what he thinks in his mind as a FORMER GUARD. This was stated the other day in a thread and if it is true it is pure insanity. Looks like we now have some anecdotal evidence of it being true. sad indeed. SMH.
You guys just don't get it do you.\

Do you really believe that Doc doesn't know he needs another starting quality big man? Do you really think that his number one or only priority would be for a back up PG?

He simply mentioned a need of this team, not its most urgent need.

Honestly, the last thing I want my head coach doing is weakening my GMs bargaining position by going public and stating that he needs a starting quality big as his top priority. Everyone in the league might know it but you don't want you coach going out and making such things public.
Title: Re: Doc mentioned how C's need a backup pg on WEEI today
Post by: LB3533 on January 04, 2013, 12:31:44 PM
We actually are not that worse off when Rondo goes to the bench.

Do I like to see Rondo going to the bench? No.

Do I feel comfortable when Rondo goes to the bench? No.

But the data shows we are pretty much the same output of net production - probably because we are a little bit better defensively and a little bit worse on offense when Rondo goes to the bench.

Title: Re: Doc mentioned how C's need a backup pg on WEEI today
Post by: snively on January 04, 2013, 12:45:19 PM
We actually are not that worse off when Rondo goes to the bench.

Do I like to see Rondo going to the bench? No.

Do I feel comfortable when Rondo goes to the bench? No.

But the data shows we are pretty much the same output of net production - probably because we are a little bit better defensively and a little bit worse on offense when Rondo goes to the bench.

I think that's more of a function of the KG 5/5/5 system.  When Rondo goes out near the end of the 1st quarter, KG comes back in, bolstering the defense as the offense takes a hit. 
Title: Re: Doc mentioned how C's need a backup pg on WEEI today
Post by: scaryjerry on January 04, 2013, 01:01:21 PM
Doc sounds like a clown with this comment in my opinion, he's completely incapable of having a backup PG play well for him, the minutes available for backup PG we have about 4 guys able to fill those shoes if we played more like the spurs
Title: Re: Doc mentioned how C's need a backup pg on WEEI today
Post by: BudweiserCeltic on January 04, 2013, 01:12:26 PM
We actually are not that worse off when Rondo goes to the bench.

Do I like to see Rondo going to the bench? No.

Do I feel comfortable when Rondo goes to the bench? No.

But the data shows we are pretty much the same output of net production - probably because we are a little bit better defensively and a little bit worse on offense when Rondo goes to the bench.

I think that's more of a function of the KG 5/5/5 system.  When Rondo goes out near the end of the 1st quarter, KG comes back in, bolstering the defense as the offense takes a hit.

Other than Terry and Lee playing together have consistently shown better defensive results than most (if not all) of the other PG-SG combinations we've used, namely Rondo and Terry together.

Let me put it this way, in just about any unit you can conceive, you're more than likely to have better defense with Terry and Lee playing together, than Terry with Rondo, yet that's our starting unit.

Lee and Rondo have some effective defensive units, so the key here is using Lee more, not using Rondo more.
Title: Re: Doc mentioned how C's need a backup pg on WEEI today
Post by: moiso on January 04, 2013, 01:15:23 PM
He stopped getting time when it became obvious that his idea of "manning the point" is putting his head down and driving to the hoop every time. It gets old quickly.
Wasn't that the point, though? Barbosa tries to find a hole in the defense, and he'll either make a basket, get fouled while shooting (sometimes they even call it), or pass out to someone else.

I actually thought it worked pretty well, honestly.
I thought it worked awesome in like two games and pretty badly the rest of the time.
Title: Re: Doc mentioned how C's need a backup pg on WEEI today
Post by: snively on January 04, 2013, 02:44:57 PM
We actually are not that worse off when Rondo goes to the bench.

Do I like to see Rondo going to the bench? No.

Do I feel comfortable when Rondo goes to the bench? No.

But the data shows we are pretty much the same output of net production - probably because we are a little bit better defensively and a little bit worse on offense when Rondo goes to the bench.

I think that's more of a function of the KG 5/5/5 system.  When Rondo goes out near the end of the 1st quarter, KG comes back in, bolstering the defense as the offense takes a hit.

Other than Terry and Lee playing together have consistently shown better defensive results than most (if not all) of the other PG-SG combinations we've used, namely Rondo and Terry together.

Let me put it this way, in just about any unit you can conceive, you're more than likely to have better defense with Terry and Lee playing together, than Terry with Rondo, yet that's our starting unit.

Lee and Rondo have some effective defensive units, so the key here is using Lee more, not using Rondo more.

The key is using Terry less as a 2-guard, especially against starters: no size to contest well at the position and still vulnerable to penetration.

But my point was the team doesn't get better defensively because Rondo leaves the floor, but mainly because KG typically comes onto the floor when he does leave. 
Title: Re: Doc mentioned how C's need a backup pg on WEEI today
Post by: kozlodoev on January 04, 2013, 04:00:51 PM
He stopped getting time when it became obvious that his idea of "manning the point" is putting his head down and driving to the hoop every time. It gets old quickly.
Wasn't that the point, though? Barbosa tries to find a hole in the defense, and he'll either make a basket, get fouled while shooting (sometimes they even call it), or pass out to someone else.

I actually thought it worked pretty well, honestly.
I thought it worked awesome in like two games and pretty badly the rest of the time.
Of course there's always the option he'll throw up a horrible shot, or turn it over. He got benched when he started doing more of this.

Also, having 4 other teammates picking their nose while you do your shtick isn't awesome in my book :)
Title: Re: Doc mentioned how C's need a backup pg on WEEI today
Post by: xmuscularghandix on January 04, 2013, 04:16:11 PM
(http://thesituationist.files.wordpress.com/2007/04/doc-marcus.jpg)
Title: Re: Doc mentioned how C's need a backup pg on WEEI today
Post by: 33_Larry Legend_33 on January 04, 2013, 04:18:13 PM
Well, Doc got rid of Darko, and we could have used him...stupid move.

Doc has Barbosa rotting away on the bench, and the guy is quick and provides instant offense...stupid move.

I'm sick of Doc - he sounds like a fool.  Just use the guy we already have on this roster.  PG's don't grow on trees - Barbosa is MORE than adequate for this team.

Makes me mad to hear this clown talk...
Title: Re: Doc mentioned how C's need a backup pg on WEEI today
Post by: Chris on January 04, 2013, 04:19:42 PM
Well, Doc got rid of Darko, and we could have used him...stupid move.


Did Doc get rid of him, or was Darko tired of waiting his turn, and quit on the team?  Because I think that is more likely.
Title: Re: Doc mentioned how C's need a backup pg on WEEI today
Post by: 33_Larry Legend_33 on January 04, 2013, 04:23:43 PM
Well, Doc got rid of Darko, and we could have used him...stupid move.


Did Doc get rid of him, or was Darko tired of waiting his turn, and quit on the team?  Because I think that is more likely.

Well, from what I could read, it appears Doc "players coach" Rivers didn't give him a fair shot, and it also sounded like Darko had a family matter that was heavy on his heart.  But I don't know...  What I do know is we could use him, and I also recognize Barbosa isn't a true PG - but he could help us.  Once you get in Doc's doghouse, it seems like you get stuck there or given up on...and that's sad.
Title: Re: Doc mentioned how C's need a backup pg on WEEI today
Post by: Chris on January 04, 2013, 04:24:55 PM
Well, Doc got rid of Darko, and we could have used him...stupid move.


Did Doc get rid of him, or was Darko tired of waiting his turn, and quit on the team?  Because I think that is more likely.

Well, from what I could read, it appears Doc "players coach" Rivers didn't give him a fair shot, and it also sounded like Darko had a family matter that was heavy on his heart.  But I don't know...  What I do know is we could use him, and I also recognize Barbosa isn't a true PG - but he could help us.  Once you get in Doc's doghouse, it seems like you get stuck there or given up on...and that's sad.

A fair shot?  He had to earn his minutes, or wait his turn.  Had he waited another couple of weeks he would have been starting, when Wilcox went down. 
Title: Re: Doc mentioned how C's need a backup pg on WEEI today
Post by: 33_Larry Legend_33 on January 04, 2013, 04:27:32 PM
Well, Doc got rid of Darko, and we could have used him...stupid move.


Did Doc get rid of him, or was Darko tired of waiting his turn, and quit on the team?  Because I think that is more likely.

Well, from what I could read, it appears Doc "players coach" Rivers didn't give him a fair shot, and it also sounded like Darko had a family matter that was heavy on his heart.  But I don't know...  What I do know is we could use him, and I also recognize Barbosa isn't a true PG - but he could help us.  Once you get in Doc's doghouse, it seems like you get stuck there or given up on...and that's sad.

A fair shot?  He had to earn his minutes, or wait his turn.  Had he waited another couple of weeks he would have been starting, when Wilcox went down.

People aren't the most clear headed when they're a LONG way from "home" and have a family member with something going on...  I'm not going to defend Darko's actions because I don't know what was going on inside his head and heart. 

But if Darko was made some promises here before signing (and I believe when he, Danny and Doc were in a room together - I bet certain things were said) and Doc didn't give him a fair shot (plus the guy got injured on his hand, if I recall) - it takes time.  Afterall, isn't Danny's mantra "PATIENCE"??
Title: Re: Doc mentioned how C's need a backup pg on WEEI today
Post by: Chris on January 04, 2013, 04:32:40 PM
Well, Doc got rid of Darko, and we could have used him...stupid move.


Did Doc get rid of him, or was Darko tired of waiting his turn, and quit on the team?  Because I think that is more likely.

Well, from what I could read, it appears Doc "players coach" Rivers didn't give him a fair shot, and it also sounded like Darko had a family matter that was heavy on his heart.  But I don't know...  What I do know is we could use him, and I also recognize Barbosa isn't a true PG - but he could help us.  Once you get in Doc's doghouse, it seems like you get stuck there or given up on...and that's sad.

A fair shot?  He had to earn his minutes, or wait his turn.  Had he waited another couple of weeks he would have been starting, when Wilcox went down.

People aren't the most clear headed when they're a LONG way from "home" and have a family member with something going on...  I'm not going to defend Darko's actions because I don't know what was going on inside his head and heart. 

But if Darko was made some promises here before signing (and I believe when he, Danny and Doc were in a room together - I bet certain things were said) and Doc didn't give him a fair shot (plus the guy got injured on his hand, if I recall) - it takes time.  Afterall, isn't Danny's mantra "PATIENCE"??

I don't mean to accuse Darko of anything.  Maybe it was a legitimate family emergency.  But we can't blame Doc for Darko leaving.  That is life at the end of the bench.  You have to wait your turn and earn your minutes. 

edit: and I am not sure where you got the idea Darko was made promises before he signed here.  Was that reported?  Because all of the stories I read had Doc telling him that he is going to have to wait his turn, but his time will come. 
Title: Re: Doc mentioned how C's need a backup pg on WEEI today
Post by: 33_Larry Legend_33 on January 04, 2013, 04:35:30 PM
Well, Doc got rid of Darko, and we could have used him...stupid move.


Did Doc get rid of him, or was Darko tired of waiting his turn, and quit on the team?  Because I think that is more likely.

Well, from what I could read, it appears Doc "players coach" Rivers didn't give him a fair shot, and it also sounded like Darko had a family matter that was heavy on his heart.  But I don't know...  What I do know is we could use him, and I also recognize Barbosa isn't a true PG - but he could help us.  Once you get in Doc's doghouse, it seems like you get stuck there or given up on...and that's sad.

A fair shot?  He had to earn his minutes, or wait his turn.  Had he waited another couple of weeks he would have been starting, when Wilcox went down.

People aren't the most clear headed when they're a LONG way from "home" and have a family member with something going on...  I'm not going to defend Darko's actions because I don't know what was going on inside his head and heart. 

But if Darko was made some promises here before signing (and I believe when he, Danny and Doc were in a room together - I bet certain things were said) and Doc didn't give him a fair shot (plus the guy got injured on his hand, if I recall) - it takes time.  Afterall, isn't Danny's mantra "PATIENCE"??

I don't mean to accuse Darko of anything.  Maybe it was a legitimate family emergency.  But we can't blame Doc for Darko leaving.  That is life at the end of the bench.  You have to wait your turn and earn your minutes.

...or like Brandon Bass, have your minutes and role screwed with on a daily basis. 

...or like Courtney Lee, have no idea what your role is.

...or like Jason Terry, be put in as the starter, when it's clear his best role is 6th man.

Sorry, I won't give Doc a free pass...  I think he's mishandling this team this season, and what NBA players want most is to know their role so they can value it.  Darko should have been given a bigger shot.  He's WAY better than the useless Jason Collins...  But I digress...
Title: Re: Doc mentioned how C's need a backup pg on WEEI today
Post by: Chris on January 04, 2013, 04:37:22 PM
Well, Doc got rid of Darko, and we could have used him...stupid move.


Did Doc get rid of him, or was Darko tired of waiting his turn, and quit on the team?  Because I think that is more likely.

Well, from what I could read, it appears Doc "players coach" Rivers didn't give him a fair shot, and it also sounded like Darko had a family matter that was heavy on his heart.  But I don't know...  What I do know is we could use him, and I also recognize Barbosa isn't a true PG - but he could help us.  Once you get in Doc's doghouse, it seems like you get stuck there or given up on...and that's sad.

A fair shot?  He had to earn his minutes, or wait his turn.  Had he waited another couple of weeks he would have been starting, when Wilcox went down.

People aren't the most clear headed when they're a LONG way from "home" and have a family member with something going on...  I'm not going to defend Darko's actions because I don't know what was going on inside his head and heart. 

But if Darko was made some promises here before signing (and I believe when he, Danny and Doc were in a room together - I bet certain things were said) and Doc didn't give him a fair shot (plus the guy got injured on his hand, if I recall) - it takes time.  Afterall, isn't Danny's mantra "PATIENCE"??

I don't mean to accuse Darko of anything.  Maybe it was a legitimate family emergency.  But we can't blame Doc for Darko leaving.  That is life at the end of the bench.  You have to wait your turn and earn your minutes.

...or like Brandon Bass, have your minutes and role screwed with on a daily basis. 

...or like Courtney Lee, have no idea what your role is.

...or like Jason Terry, be put in as the starter, when it's clear his best role is 6th man.

Sorry, I won't give Doc a free pass...  I think he's mishandling this team this season, and what NBA players want most is to know their role so they can value it.  Darko should have been given a bigger shot.  He's WAY better than the useless Jason Collins...  But I digress...

Darko was given a chance in the preseason.  He didn't look good, then he got hurt.  He was given a shot when he came back, looked out of shape, and didnt know the rotations.  He left the team a couple weeks later.

Title: Re: Doc mentioned how C's need a backup pg on WEEI today
Post by: nickagneta on January 04, 2013, 04:41:21 PM
Darko wasn't performing up to his abilities in practice and in regular season action because of personal issues weighing on him. He was released to attend to those personal issues that he says is a sick family member back in Serbia. To date, there have been zero reports of him signing a contract in Europe or in the NBA or even a rumor of such.

He left to attend personal matters and given the lack of news regarding Darko, I gotta think that he is doing just that. Darko didn't leave because of Doc. I find that kind of ridiculous.
Title: Re: Doc mentioned how C's need a backup pg on WEEI today
Post by: 33_Larry Legend_33 on January 04, 2013, 04:51:11 PM
Darko wasn't performing up to his abilities in practice and in regular season action because of personal issues weighing on him. He was released to attend to those personal issues that he says is a sick family member back in Serbia. To date, there have been zero reports of him signing a contract in Europe or in the NBA or even a rumor of such.

He left to attend personal matters and given the lack of news regarding Darko, I gotta think that he is doing just that. Darko didn't leave because of Doc. I find that kind of ridiculous.

Until we can get inside Darko's head, it's all speculation.  Who knows why he left - maybe a combination of reasons, which COULD have been partly Doc, but he took the high road and said nothing.  I'm not putting this all on Doc - the truth is we don't know, and nothing can be discredited...
Title: Re: Doc mentioned how C's need a backup pg on WEEI today
Post by: crimson_stallion on January 04, 2013, 05:09:32 PM
Good backup PG's are rarely available. Terry pretty much has to be that guy.

Unfortunately Terry appears to be at least as over paid as Jeff Green so far. Terry's been too slow to create space for his shot. And looks horrible on defense

Everybody keeps saying this, but can anybody show objective evidence that Terry is a poor defender? The only thing qanyone has provided has been "eye test".

Every single statistic I've seen (all from various different sources) has suggested that Terry has been our second best defensive player after KG in terms of his point impact on that end of the court. The other guys who have have spent time in the starting lineup (Rondo, Lee, Pierce, Sully, Bass, Collins) have all been statistically worse than Terry on defense.

Doc's view of Terry seems to match what the stats say (he's said countless times that he's loved his defense) so...
Title: Re: Doc mentioned how C's need a backup pg on WEEI today
Post by: Chris on January 04, 2013, 05:12:25 PM
Darko wasn't performing up to his abilities in practice and in regular season action because of personal issues weighing on him. He was released to attend to those personal issues that he says is a sick family member back in Serbia. To date, there have been zero reports of him signing a contract in Europe or in the NBA or even a rumor of such.

He left to attend personal matters and given the lack of news regarding Darko, I gotta think that he is doing just that. Darko didn't leave because of Doc. I find that kind of ridiculous.

Until we can get inside Darko's head, it's all speculation.  Who knows why he left - maybe a combination of reasons, which COULD have been partly Doc, but he took the high road and said nothing.  I'm not putting this all on Doc - the truth is we don't know, and nothing can be discredited...

We don't need to get in Darko's head to know that it is a bit ridiculous to blame the coach for not playing a vet minimum player, who looked terrible and out of shape the short time he did get on the court, during the first few weeks of the season.

Who knows why Darko left...but Doc was under no obligation to play him, and the amount of time he was on the team does not constitute long enough to suggest he wasn't given a "fair chance".
Title: Re: Doc mentioned how C's need a backup pg on WEEI today
Post by: ImShakHeIsShaq on January 04, 2013, 05:29:12 PM
Darko wasn't performing up to his abilities in practice and in regular season action because of personal issues weighing on him. He was released to attend to those personal issues that he says is a sick family member back in Serbia. To date, there have been zero reports of him signing a contract in Europe or in the NBA or even a rumor of such.

He left to attend personal matters and given the lack of news regarding Darko, I gotta think that he is doing just that. Darko didn't leave because of Doc. I find that kind of ridiculous.

Until we can get inside Darko's head, it's all speculation.  Who knows why he left - maybe a combination of reasons, which COULD have been partly Doc, but he took the high road and said nothing.  I'm not putting this all on Doc - the truth is we don't know, and nothing can be discredited...

We don't need to get in Darko's head to know that it is a bit ridiculous to blame the coach for not playing a vet minimum player, who looked terrible and out of shape the short time he did get on the court, during the first few weeks of the season.

Who knows why Darko left...but Doc was under no obligation to play him, and the amount of time he was on the team does not constitute long enough to suggest he wasn't given a "fair chance".

You know how you can tell Darko didn't get a fair shot? When Doc said himself that he had to give up on small ball, that he was pretty much forcing it on the team but that we weren't good enough for it... THEN he started COLLINS, a guy who had played very little minutes b4 that time, into the starting lineup (he wasn't even getting scrub minutes)! Had Doc gone for the change to a more traditional lineup EARLIER, who knows what Darko could have provided... I'm almost certain he would have gotten that nod over Collins. Doc forced "small ball" which pushed Darko out (most of his problem was his mother's health though).

I'm not saying Darko was the answer but to say he got a fair shot or that we don't know if he did or not is just funny. You know by Doc's own words that he wasn't given one. Not only did Doc choose to force small ball he also cares more about practice then actual game play, b/c when Darko did play he performed solidly for us (yes it was only preseason but he was hurt after that)... Doc doesn't take into consideration that some people are just not going to perform well in practice (he was also worried about his family)! If Darko was doing his job on the court and not being a jerk behind the scenes who cares if he slacked some in practice (sure didn't stop JET's performance all these years... now that he HAS to practice hard here and now says he loves it, his play hasn't been the same lol). What's funny is last season when we couldn't practice much at all, we were amazing...
Title: Re: Doc mentioned how C's need a backup pg on WEEI today
Post by: 2short on January 04, 2013, 05:44:19 PM
Good backup PG's are rarely available. Terry pretty much has to be that guy.

Unfortunately Terry appears to be at least as over paid as Jeff Green so far. Terry's been too slow to create space for his shot. And looks horrible on defense

Everybody keeps saying this, but can anybody show objective evidence that Terry is a poor defender? The only thing qanyone has provided has been "eye test".

Every single statistic I've seen (all from various different sources) has suggested that Terry has been our second best defensive player after KG in terms of his point impact on that end of the court. The other guys who have have spent time in the starting lineup (Rondo, Lee, Pierce, Sully, Bass, Collins) have all been statistically worse than Terry on defense.

Doc's view of Terry seems to match what the stats say (he's said countless times that he's loved his defense) so...
my eye test from watching every game is this:
terry generally works on defense but is fair at best
i'd honestly take my eye test over stats, watch rotations off the ball
Title: Re: Doc mentioned how C's need a backup pg on WEEI today
Post by: gar on January 04, 2013, 05:59:59 PM
The Celtics fourth quarter problems are not just because KG is gassed. Rondo's production has been done in the fourth as well.

Rondo and Terry is a defensive nightmare. You need either Lee or Bradley on the floor for D.

Rondo and Bradley / Lee and Terry should be fine with a little Bradley and Lee for good measure. That said is interesting to see what the Knicks are doing with the 35 year old Argentine dude. Lots of good PG's in the league all of the sudden.
Title: Re: Doc mentioned how C's need a backup pg on WEEI today
Post by: j804 on January 04, 2013, 06:27:35 PM
The Celtics fourth quarter problems are not just because KG is gassed. Rondo's production has been done in the fourth as well.

Rondo and Terry is a defensive nightmare. You need either Lee or Bradley on the floor for D.

Rondo and Bradley / Lee and Terry should be fine with a little Bradley and Lee for good measure. That said is interesting to see what the Knicks are doing with the 35 year old Argentine dude. Lots of good PG's in the league all of the sudden.
It is true what Magic said in order for the Celtics to be elite and have a chance at knocking off the Heat Rondo has to score. He has to average up toward 17 20 points and sadly I've just come to grips with he can't do it. He doesn't like to attack the basket avoids contact and most of the time disappears offensively.
Title: Re: Doc mentioned how C's need a backup pg on WEEI today
Post by: LB3533 on January 04, 2013, 07:12:22 PM
Derk Fisher anyone?

Is he sorta the Jason Collins of the point guards?
Title: Re: Doc mentioned how C's need a backup pg on WEEI today
Post by: Chris on January 04, 2013, 07:54:43 PM
Darko wasn't performing up to his abilities in practice and in regular season action because of personal issues weighing on him. He was released to attend to those personal issues that he says is a sick family member back in Serbia. To date, there have been zero reports of him signing a contract in Europe or in the NBA or even a rumor of such.

He left to attend personal matters and given the lack of news regarding Darko, I gotta think that he is doing just that. Darko didn't leave because of Doc. I find that kind of ridiculous.

Until we can get inside Darko's head, it's all speculation.  Who knows why he left - maybe a combination of reasons, which COULD have been partly Doc, but he took the high road and said nothing.  I'm not putting this all on Doc - the truth is we don't know, and nothing can be discredited...

We don't need to get in Darko's head to know that it is a bit ridiculous to blame the coach for not playing a vet minimum player, who looked terrible and out of shape the short time he did get on the court, during the first few weeks of the season.

Who knows why Darko left...but Doc was under no obligation to play him, and the amount of time he was on the team does not constitute long enough to suggest he wasn't given a "fair chance".

You know how you can tell Darko didn't get a fair shot? When Doc said himself that he had to give up on small ball, that he was pretty much forcing it on the team but that we weren't good enough for it... THEN he started COLLINS, a guy who had played very little minutes b4 that time, into the starting lineup (he wasn't even getting scrub minutes)! Had Doc gone for the change to a more traditional lineup EARLIER, who knows what Darko could have provided... I'm almost certain he would have gotten that nod over Collins. Doc forced "small ball" which pushed Darko out (most of his problem was his mother's health though).

I'm not saying Darko was the answer but to say he got a fair shot or that we don't know if he did or not is just funny. You know by Doc's own words that he wasn't given one. Not only did Doc choose to force small ball he also cares more about practice then actual game play, b/c when Darko did play he performed solidly for us (yes it was only preseason but he was hurt after that)... Doc doesn't take into consideration that some people are just not going to perform well in practice (he was also worried about his family)! If Darko was doing his job on the court and not being a jerk behind the scenes who cares if he slacked some in practice (sure didn't stop JET's performance all these years... now that he HAS to practice hard here and now says he loves it, his play hasn't been the same lol). What's funny is last season when we couldn't practice much at all, we were amazing...

And if Darko had stuck around a couple weeks more, he would have been starting, not Collins.

Docs job is do whats best for the team, not play players on their personal timetables.
Title: Re: Doc mentioned how C's need a backup pg on WEEI today
Post by: 33_Larry Legend_33 on January 04, 2013, 09:08:46 PM
Darko wasn't performing up to his abilities in practice and in regular season action because of personal issues weighing on him. He was released to attend to those personal issues that he says is a sick family member back in Serbia. To date, there have been zero reports of him signing a contract in Europe or in the NBA or even a rumor of such.

He left to attend personal matters and given the lack of news regarding Darko, I gotta think that he is doing just that. Darko didn't leave because of Doc. I find that kind of ridiculous.

Until we can get inside Darko's head, it's all speculation.  Who knows why he left - maybe a combination of reasons, which COULD have been partly Doc, but he took the high road and said nothing.  I'm not putting this all on Doc - the truth is we don't know, and nothing can be discredited...

We don't need to get in Darko's head to know that it is a bit ridiculous to blame the coach for not playing a vet minimum player, who looked terrible and out of shape the short time he did get on the court, during the first few weeks of the season.

Who knows why Darko left...but Doc was under no obligation to play him, and the amount of time he was on the team does not constitute long enough to suggest he wasn't given a "fair chance".

You know how you can tell Darko didn't get a fair shot? When Doc said himself that he had to give up on small ball, that he was pretty much forcing it on the team but that we weren't good enough for it... THEN he started COLLINS, a guy who had played very little minutes b4 that time, into the starting lineup (he wasn't even getting scrub minutes)! Had Doc gone for the change to a more traditional lineup EARLIER, who knows what Darko could have provided... I'm almost certain he would have gotten that nod over Collins. Doc forced "small ball" which pushed Darko out (most of his problem was his mother's health though).

I'm not saying Darko was the answer but to say he got a fair shot or that we don't know if he did or not is just funny. You know by Doc's own words that he wasn't given one. Not only did Doc choose to force small ball he also cares more about practice then actual game play, b/c when Darko did play he performed solidly for us (yes it was only preseason but he was hurt after that)... Doc doesn't take into consideration that some people are just not going to perform well in practice (he was also worried about his family)! If Darko was doing his job on the court and not being a jerk behind the scenes who cares if he slacked some in practice (sure didn't stop JET's performance all these years... now that he HAS to practice hard here and now says he loves it, his play hasn't been the same lol). What's funny is last season when we couldn't practice much at all, we were amazing...

And if Darko had stuck around a couple weeks more, he would have been starting, not Collins.

Docs job is do whats best for the team, not play players on their personal timetables.

If you're a moderator, I guess that means you're always right at this site.  You win...Darko was a waste and Doc is perfect in all his assessments.