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Celtics Basketball => Celtics Talk => Topic started by: mctyson on January 03, 2013, 07:16:10 AM

Title: KG: back to the 5 you go
Post by: mctyson on January 03, 2013, 07:16:10 AM
Now.

No more Jason Collins.  Ever.

Rondo-Bradley-Pierce-Bass/Sullinger-KG, every game. 

No excuses.
Title: Re: KG: back to the 5 you go
Post by: chambers on January 03, 2013, 07:33:45 AM
depends on the line up. Collins is good to put pressure on a bigger team like Memphis, and to try and stop Randoplh/Gasol from getting a rhythm going.

I do agree I'd like the smaller line up starting most games.
Sully's just getting so many fouls called against him though, he won't make the fourth quarter.
I'd even try Bass now that Avery is back, with Terry, Sully, Green and Lee coming in. Wilcox too once he's back.
Title: Re: KG: back to the 5 you go
Post by: pearljammer10 on January 03, 2013, 08:27:23 AM
As much as I love the traditional line up. I completely agree. Collins needs to not play ever again unless its 2 minutes in a quarter where we need to give a couple hard fouls or some face up defense.

Its like Doc is saying ok Danny, I need a center, all I have is this guy, so Im going to play him until you get me a better one.
Title: Re: KG: back to the 5 you go
Post by: BudweiserCeltic on January 03, 2013, 08:38:27 AM
As much as I love the traditional line up. I completely agree. Collins needs to not play ever again unless its 2 minutes in a quarter where we need to give a couple hard fouls or some face up defense.

Its like Doc is saying ok Danny, I need a center, all I have is this guy, so Im going to play him until you get me a better one.

Too bad he didn't realize it when we had Darko at hand.
Title: Re: KG: back to the 5 you go
Post by: AshyLarry on January 03, 2013, 08:57:46 AM
As much as I love the traditional line up. I completely agree. Collins needs to not play ever again unless its 2 minutes in a quarter where we need to give a couple hard fouls or some face up defense.

Its like Doc is saying ok Danny, I need a center, all I have is this guy, so Im going to play him until you get me a better one.

Too bad he didn't realize it when we had Darko at hand.


Darko wouldn't have been a factor either way. He wasn't invested.
Title: Re: KG: back to the 5 you go
Post by: winsomme on January 03, 2013, 09:05:21 AM
Now.

No more Jason Collins.  Ever.

Rondo-Bradley-Pierce-Bass/Sullinger-KG, every game. 

No excuses.

That was the starting lineup that we used for our playoff push last year, and I agree that we should return to regardless of who we are playing. I think it will do worlds of good for Bass who knows his role in that lineup and was a very effective offensive option with that group.

I, however, do not want Collins to disappear at this point. Until we can get a legit back up C, I actually want him to sub in for KG when he comes out halfway through the 1st quarter....I really don't like the Bass/Sully lineup. We get killed on the boards and the offense seems out of whack.

So, to sum up, 'yes' to Bass in the starting lineup, and until Danny finds a Collins replacement, I'd still like to see him get some time at C. I also wouldn't mind seeing Melo get some time out there...but Bass/Sully ball, not a fan..
Title: Re: KG: back to the 5 you go
Post by: wdleehi on January 03, 2013, 09:08:47 AM
At this point, putting Bass back in does make sense.



Collins is still going to play mind you.  They can still use his low post defense when KG is off the court. 
Title: Re: KG: back to the 5 you go
Post by: winsomme on January 03, 2013, 09:11:53 AM
As much as I love the traditional line up. I completely agree. Collins needs to not play ever again unless its 2 minutes in a quarter where we need to give a couple hard fouls or some face up defense.

Its like Doc is saying ok Danny, I need a center, all I have is this guy, so Im going to play him until you get me a better one.

Too bad he didn't realize it when we had Darko at hand.

yeah, I thought that Darko signing was gonna be big (pardon the pun) for us. I thought he was going to be Stiemsma's replacement...The result of not having an appealing backup C is that we get way too much Bass/Sully ball and as I just said I don't like that combo.

you know who would benefit the most from a backup C is Green. The defense would function better and Green would be able to focus more on scoring...
Title: Re: KG: back to the 5 you go
Post by: SHAQATTACK on January 03, 2013, 09:13:41 AM
you can put the current Celtics in bag shake em up  .  Pour em out and what you got is the same ol thing.

Title: Re: KG: back to the 5 you go
Post by: winsomme on January 03, 2013, 09:14:38 AM
At this point, putting Bass back in does make sense.



Collins is still going to play mind you.  They can still use his low post defense when KG is off the court.

If for no other reason than Bass would play better. Plus, Sully doesn't quite fit that role yet. He doesn't have that elbow jumper down like Bass had last year. That little 16-18 ft Bass jumper was a staple of our offense with the starting unit. I'd like to see that back up and running.
Title: Re: KG: back to the 5 you go
Post by: celticinorlando on January 03, 2013, 09:18:18 AM
you can put the current Celtics in bag shake em up  .  Pour em out and what you got is the same ol thing.

TP. This team has no trust...no chemistry. I don't believe Doc likes this team at all. They aren't just getting beat...they are getting whipped. Look at the last losses to Bulls, SA, Houston, Clippers. Warriors, Kings, Grizz...all double digit losses and the games were never even close

It is really a sad state. I don't buy the fact that this team will figure it out...
Title: Re: KG: back to the 5 you go
Post by: Cman on January 03, 2013, 09:24:22 AM
you can put the current Celtics in bag shake em up  .  Pour em out and what you got is the same ol thing.

with you on this.
I think I'll focus on the Pats for awhile until the Cs sort themselves out.
Title: Re: KG: back to the 5 you go
Post by: celticslove on January 03, 2013, 09:35:25 AM
can we sign shaq back?lol
Title: Re: KG: back to the 5 you go
Post by: SHAQATTACK on January 03, 2013, 09:52:32 AM
Maybe KG will rise up out of the ashes once again, throw the Celtics on his back and muster one final asault before he playoffs. 

At this point I'm not sure what more to expect. Hope is waning.

Just bummed.
Title: Re: KG: back to the 5 you go
Post by: mgent on January 03, 2013, 10:09:36 AM
The Collins experiment was a joke, and I can't believe we're still entertaining it.  Our guys hit shots the first time he played, that didn't mean we had to drop everything and change our rotation. 

He's averaging 1 point, 2 rebounds, and 3 fouls.  He is one of the biggest liabilities in the league offensively, and is very poor on the boards.  His average (at best) defense doesn't justify this.

If we were going to sign a 35 year old, slow footed, defensive minded center, JO does everything better on the court.
Title: Re: KG: back to the 5 you go
Post by: rondofor3 on January 03, 2013, 11:02:15 AM
Maybe KG will rise up out of the ashes once again, throw the Celtics on his back and muster one final asault before he playoffs. 

At this point I'm not sure what more to expect. Hope is waning.

Just bummed.

Rise from the ashes? Without KG we may not have 7 wins. Can't ask for much else from him.
Title: Re: KG: back to the 5 you go
Post by: nickagneta on January 03, 2013, 11:23:46 AM
Last night's fourth quarter convinced me that of all the bigs other than KG, Doc trusts Sullinger the most to do what he wants.

At one point early in a possession, Sullinger got the ball 20 feet from the basket with his man playing way back in the paint and he jacked up the shot and missed. With most rookies or young players, Doc instantly pulls them and lectures them about quality shot selection, ball movement, playing within themselves and to not play hero ball.

Instead, he let him stay in the game all through the fourth until he fouled out. Sully's fouls being called against him were fairly bogus and the more playing time he gets and more familiarity he gets with the refs, the less the refs will call those fouls on him. He's obviously getting the rookie treatment from the refs right now.

But as the C's were coming back, the lineup Doc went with, for the most part was Rondo, Terry/Bradley, Pierce, Sullinger and KG.

The kid is playing very well, extremely smart, and hard nosed. He is their best rebounder by far. And his understanding of how to guard bigger men and where to be in this defense is exceptional for a 20 year old rookie.

Sullinger is going to start being on the floor during the games most important times. That's going to make Green and Bass expendable and Bradley's addition will make Lee expendable. When the time comes where they are eligible to be traded, I say watch for trades involving those three players.
Title: Re: KG: back to the 5 you go
Post by: Yoki_IsTheName on January 03, 2013, 11:23:56 AM
We need KG to play more minutes.

I understand we are saving his energy for the playoffs but it's been the recipe for disaster for us. Everytime he goes to rest, there is a big scramble on defense.

We need him to play 30-35 minutes. It can be brutal, but it's one thing we need to do if we wanna win.

That or find someone who can cover the defensive flaws when he's on the bench.

Title: Re: KG: back to the 5 you go
Post by: Fafnir on January 03, 2013, 11:38:28 AM
With Bradley coming back Bass might work out better than with Terry.

I'd rather have Doc give Sullinger another chance though, either way I want KG back to the 5 except if matchups require Collins post defense more.
Title: Re: KG: back to the 5 you go
Post by: MBunge on January 03, 2013, 11:44:28 AM
Last night's fourth quarter convinced me that of all the bigs other than KG, Doc trusts Sullinger the most to do what he wants.

The "trust" part of that is one of the things that makes Doc a good coach.  The "do what he wants" part, however, is one of the things that frustrates fans and complicates things for the players.  It often seems like Doc puts players into certain roles and only cares about how they fit that role, sometimes disregarding what else that can do.  The main reason that Tony Allen, Big Baby and Ray aren't here anymore is because they were no longer willing to play the role Doc assigned to them.  I think one of the reasons why Terry, Green and Lee have struggled is because of the roles Doc has pushed them into. And it's pretty clear that when a player doesn't have Doc's trust, it's extraordinarily hard to get it back.

Mike
Title: Re: KG: back to the 5 you go
Post by: alley oop on January 03, 2013, 12:02:54 PM
I agree. No one ever said last year when they had that lineup, “they didn’t have an identity”. They need that fifth person on the floor who can hit a jumper, both for scoring and to open up the paint. And as Bradley’s minutes increase, the opposing teams guard  penetration should go down significantly.
Title: Re: KG: back to the 5 you go
Post by: Roy H. on January 03, 2013, 12:07:41 PM
Jason Collins is probably the worst offensive player in basketball, and he's a poor rebounder and not much of a shotblocker.  His defense is good, but not elite.

In other words, he's a D-League caliber player who shouldn't be seeing anything other than emergency / garbage minutes. 

Sign Chris Anderson and play Sully more.
Title: Re: KG: back to the 5 you go
Post by: nickagneta on January 03, 2013, 12:08:11 PM
Last night's fourth quarter convinced me that of all the bigs other than KG, Doc trusts Sullinger the most to do what he wants.

The "trust" part of that is one of the things that makes Doc a good coach.  The "do what he wants" part, however, is one of the things that frustrates fans and complicates things for the players.  It often seems like Doc puts players into certain roles and only cares about how they fit that role, sometimes disregarding what else that can do.  The main reason that Tony Allen, Big Baby and Ray aren't here anymore is because they were no longer willing to play the role Doc assigned to them.  I think one of the reasons why Terry, Green and Lee have struggled is because of the roles Doc has pushed them into. And it's pretty clear that when a player doesn't have Doc's trust, it's extraordinarily hard to get it back.

Mike
Hate to break it to you Mike, but just about every coach on every level of basketball puts their players into roles that he or she feels those players need to fill in order to have a successful basketball team overall. This isn't some rare concept of Doc's.
Title: Re: KG: back to the 5 you go
Post by: celts55 on January 03, 2013, 12:25:01 PM
The other thing, and you may disagree, is KG plays better at the 5. for some reason this shooting and rebound numbers seem to be down and he's not defending around the basket. I think in this league where there are not many "true" centers, KG is better suited there than at the power forward spot.
Title: Re: KG: back to the 5 you go
Post by: Roy H. on January 03, 2013, 12:42:47 PM
The other thing, and you may disagree, is KG plays better at the 5. for some reason this shooting and rebound numbers seem to be down and he's not defending around the basket. I think in this league where there are not many "true" centers, KG is better suited there than at the power forward spot.

I think in an ideal world, we'd have a defensive anchor down low, and would allow KG to "roam" on defense.  KG has lost a step or two laterally, but he's still one of the best.  He just needs a defensive presence to play beside.

Barring that, then yeah, KG at center makes sense.
Title: Re: KG: back to the 5 you go
Post by: nickagneta on January 03, 2013, 12:44:50 PM
 

Sign Chris Anderson and play Sully more.
Never thought the Jason Collins signing was any good or really very smart and I don't understand the Varnado signing when a defensive, rebounding big man like Andersen is out there and available.
Title: Re: KG: back to the 5 you go
Post by: kozlodoev on January 03, 2013, 12:53:49 PM
 

Sign Chris Anderson and play Sully more.
Never thought the Jason Collins signing was any good or really very smart and I don't understand the Varnado signing when a defensive, rebounding big man like Andersen is out there and available.
It was a great signing when he was a third-string big. Not so great when he's the starting center.
Title: Re: KG: back to the 5 you go
Post by: Chris on January 03, 2013, 12:57:09 PM
 

Sign Chris Anderson and play Sully more.
Never thought the Jason Collins signing was any good or really very smart and I don't understand the Varnado signing when a defensive, rebounding big man like Andersen is out there and available.
It was a great signing when he was a third-string big. Not so great when he's the starting center.

Correction, 4th string big.  He had KG, Wilcox, and Darko in front of him. 

And as a 4th center, he is a valuable guy.  The problem was when they lost their 3rd string center in Darko, they were forced to put Collins in a rotation roll they never envisioned him.  He was brought in for a specific role, to defend low post centers in case of emergency. 

I do think its interesting that they brought in Varnardo over guys like Andersen for the open roster spot.  I am not sure if that says more about Varnardo or Andersen.  Probably a little of both. 
Title: Re: KG: back to the 5 you go
Post by: kozlodoev on January 03, 2013, 01:06:12 PM
I am not sure if that says more about Varnardo or Andersen.  Probably a little of both.
We had Andersen for a workout a couple of seasons ago, maybe we just didn't like him.

But then again, I'm inclined to just consider Andersen done at this point regardless.
Title: Re: KG: back to the 5 you go
Post by: pearljammer10 on January 03, 2013, 01:14:05 PM
 

Sign Chris Anderson and play Sully more.
Never thought the Jason Collins signing was any good or really very smart and I don't understand the Varnado signing when a defensive, rebounding big man like Andersen is out there and available.
It was a great signing when he was a third-string big. Not so great when he's the starting center.

Cant agree with you more. Collins riding the pine, coaching in the locker room, and coming in for those emergency moments is absolutely A-Ok. But he is not a rotation player on a championship caliber team, let alone a starter.

I wanted to see Darko get minutes so bad and if he only stuck it out a few more weeks we could have had a legit rotation caliber center in the starting lineup. Darko playing 20 minutes for us could have been a big improvement and kept us on a steadier ship than we are seeing now.
Title: Re: KG: back to the 5 you go
Post by: TA9 on January 03, 2013, 01:55:56 PM
We really dont have any option than Kevin going back to the 5.
Varnado was a flop signing. Im really disapointed that we didnt sign some other center or heck our old friend Chris Johnson who is also playing in the D-League.
Title: Re: KG: back to the 5 you go
Post by: mctyson on January 03, 2013, 02:39:13 PM
My was this: that is our best offensive AND defensive lineup.  I know KG at the 5 is not what we want defensively, but it is what we want offensively.

Since Doc moved KG back to the 4, he has struggled on offense.  We need his offense.

Since Doc benched Bass, his productivity has dropped.  He needs consistent minutes because he is a shooter.

Collins cannot be taking minutes away from Bass, Sullinger, or Jeff Green for that matter.
Title: Re: KG: back to the 5 you go
Post by: kozlodoev on January 03, 2013, 02:43:24 PM
We really dont have any option than Kevin going back to the 5.
Varnado was a flop signing. Im really disapointed that we didnt sign some other center or heck our old friend Chris Johnson who is also playing in the D-League.
Varnado was a "flop", but you'd rather take... Chris Johnson?! Please, make it stop...
Title: Re: KG: back to the 5 you go
Post by: SHAQATTACK on January 03, 2013, 03:07:39 PM
We need KG to play more minutes.

I understand we are saving his energy for the playoffs but it's been the recipe for disaster for us. Everytime he goes to rest, there is a big scramble on defense.

We need him to play 30-35 minutes. It can be brutal, but it's one thing we need to do if we wanna win.

That or find someone who can cover the defensive flaws when he's on the bench.

I predicted as early as preseason , if KG sit on the bench we'll have trouble beating anybody. The team looked terrible with paint defense in the preseason, and fell completely apart when KG sits down.   

Look at the Lakers ,  if KOBE didn't play but 25 minutes ,  they would never win a game.   Kobe has to Play 40 minutes for the Lakers to even be competitive.

IF Pierce and KG are rested and both play  a full quarter under ful energy we can still beat anybody for one QUARTER...problem is there are three more quarters to play....thats why we need young legs (IE COUSINS) who can play as long as you leave him in game.

Seriously lacking in talent for BIGS at the PF /C .  The Paint is just wide open for penetration, nobody rotating with help coverage on guards driving to the rim....no shot blocker ....the front line is a mess .. HELP !!!!!!!!
Title: Re: KG: back to the 5 you go
Post by: cltc5 on January 03, 2013, 03:08:18 PM
Or fire doc rivers so we get a coach that uses his players effectively
Title: Re: KG: back to the 5 you go
Post by: MBunge on January 03, 2013, 05:42:21 PM
Seriously lacking in talent for BIGS at the PF /C .  The Paint is just wide open for penetration, nobody rotating with help coverage on guards driving to the rim....no shot blocker ....the front line is a mess .. HELP !!!!!!!!

I'm not going to give the bigs a pass because they haven't played well, but NOBODY looks good if your perimeter defense leaks like a sieve.

Mike 
Title: Re: KG: back to the 5 you go
Post by: lightspeed5 on January 03, 2013, 05:47:51 PM
Jason Collins is probably the worst offensive player in basketball, and he's a poor rebounder and not much of a shotblocker.  His defense is good, but not elite.

In other words, he's a D-League caliber player who shouldn't be seeing anything other than emergency / garbage minutes. 

Sign Chris Anderson and play Sully more.
noone is going to sign chris anderson. he is probably going to jail after convicted.
Title: Re: KG: back to the 5 you go
Post by: TA9 on January 03, 2013, 06:17:18 PM
We really dont have any option than Kevin going back to the 5.
Varnado was a flop signing. Im really disapointed that we didnt sign some other center or heck our old friend Chris Johnson who is also playing in the D-League.
Varnado was a "flop", but you'd rather take... Chris Johnson?! Please, make it stop...
I know, I know..
Johnson isnt the best option available out there but compared to Varnado, Chris Johnson actually produced when he was given playing time, something Varnado isnt.
Title: Re: KG: back to the 5 you go
Post by: Roy H. on January 03, 2013, 06:19:16 PM
Jason Collins is probably the worst offensive player in basketball, and he's a poor rebounder and not much of a shotblocker.  His defense is good, but not elite.

In other words, he's a D-League caliber player who shouldn't be seeing anything other than emergency / garbage minutes. 

Sign Chris Anderson and play Sully more.
noone is going to sign chris anderson. he is probably going to jail after convicted.

I'm a little rusty on the law, but doesn't somebody have to be arrested and charged before being convicted?
Title: Re: KG: back to the 5 you go
Post by: kozlodoev on January 03, 2013, 06:41:16 PM
We really dont have any option than Kevin going back to the 5.
Varnado was a flop signing. Im really disapointed that we didnt sign some other center or heck our old friend Chris Johnson who is also playing in the D-League.
Varnado was a "flop", but you'd rather take... Chris Johnson?! Please, make it stop...
I know, I know..
Johnson isnt the best option available out there but compared to Varnado, Chris Johnson actually produced when he was given playing time, something Varnado isnt.
Not sure when you think he was given playing time. He played a total of 32 minutes over 4 games for us with zero results, and promptly washed out of the league after the Pistons and the Hornets gave him cursory looks last season. Are we talking about the same guy?!
Title: Re: KG: back to the 5 you go
Post by: lightspeed5 on January 03, 2013, 08:23:20 PM
KG cannot play the 4, and collins cannot play the 5.
Title: Re: KG: back to the 5 you go
Post by: LB3533 on January 04, 2013, 12:16:41 PM
As far as the data shows, KG at the 5 is our best lineup.

You can have KG at the 5 and full of bench players and we will still outscore our opponents. (See 82games.com)

As far as I am concerned, starting and playing Collins was a move of desperation.

If I was the head coach starting the season, I would have just kept the starting lineup the same until Bradley came back.

This way you would have had Jet get accustomed to running our sets as the 6th man as he was intended to be.

And the only real tinkering you would have had to make was Courtney Lee off the bench.

The rest of the other bench players would "work themselves out".

Sometimes, making changes for the sake of change isn't necessary.

Sometimes, you just have to give it time. Time to grow, time to learn, time to adapt to new situations.
Title: Re: KG: back to the 5 you go
Post by: StartOrien on January 04, 2013, 12:25:06 PM
I saw Paul Flannery tweet something that suggested that the Celtics want Garnett at the 4 for the regular season to help preserve his body.