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Celtics Basketball => Celtics Talk => Topic started by: Smitty77 on January 02, 2013, 09:05:59 PM

Title: Doc will get fired soon
Post by: Smitty77 on January 02, 2013, 09:05:59 PM
If this this historic losing streak continues, Doc will by gone by January 20th!!!

He is an average coach at best, and he apparently has LOST this team.

This is sad.  The effort is pitiful.  The commitment to small ball by Doc is simply astonishing. 

We might be playing the WORST basketball in the NBA.

Smitty77
Title: Re: Doc will get fired soon
Post by: CelticG1 on January 02, 2013, 09:11:38 PM
Don't see it happening
Title: Re: Doc will get fired soon
Post by: OsirusCeltics on January 02, 2013, 09:14:17 PM
I'm crossing my fingers
Title: Re: Doc will get fired soon
Post by: Lightskinsmurf on January 02, 2013, 09:14:40 PM
We'd have to lose 20 in a row before danny even thinks about firing doc.
Title: Re: Doc will get fired soon
Post by: D.o.s. on January 02, 2013, 09:15:14 PM
I will bet you a million pretend dollars he doesn't.
Title: Re: Doc will get fired soon
Post by: JOMVP on January 02, 2013, 09:18:43 PM
Players love Doc. Garnett and Pierce would probably perform worse without him coaching.
Title: Re: Doc will get fired soon
Post by: blink on January 02, 2013, 09:19:21 PM
Not a chance.
Title: Re: Doc will get fired soon
Post by: BadNewsBarnes on January 02, 2013, 09:19:48 PM
I don't see Danny doing that.
Title: Re: Doc will get fired soon
Post by: nickagneta on January 02, 2013, 09:20:21 PM
Simply not happening.

Doc made it through a truly historic 18 game losing streak and is still the coach. 3-4 blowout victories, especially against 3-4 of the best teams in the league, isn't getting him fired.

And BTW, exactly how much non-small ball can Doc play given the construction of the team given him and the players that are healthy. I just don't get this criticism the last two years. The league has gone small ball. Danny constructed a small ball team and people want Doc to play something other than small ball.

I just and baffled by that criticism.

I will say this. Doc has not gotten many of the newer players to "get" his defensive system and their overall lack of aggression and desire to just take jump shots is all on Doc.

Title: Re: Doc will get fired soon
Post by: kozlodoev on January 02, 2013, 09:20:34 PM
If this this historic losing streak continues, Doc will by gone by January 20th!!!

He is an average coach at best, and he apparently has LOST this team.

This is sad.  The effort is pitiful.  The commitment to small ball by Doc is simply astonishing. 

We might be playing the WORST basketball in the NBA.

Smitty77
Yes, how can he not get everything out of this team of young studs in their prime?

We banked on last season's hurrah being the norm rahter than an exception. We lost. The rebuilding process is more complicated than firing Doc.
Title: Re: Doc will get fired soon
Post by: Change on January 02, 2013, 09:20:43 PM
Danny Ainge should step down before Doc gets fired.
Title: Re: Doc will get fired soon
Post by: Roy H. on January 02, 2013, 09:20:46 PM
It won't happen unless Wyc demands it.
Title: Re: Doc will get fired soon
Post by: 33_Larry Legend_33 on January 02, 2013, 09:21:08 PM
No he won't...  Danny LOVES him - and it will be to our detriment.  Doc is a myth - he's as good as his assistants.  His only skills are 1) communication, and 2) out of bounds plays.  Other than that he sucks.

Wish ABC would come calling him...

Popovich knows how to adjust his talent.  Pat Riley did so with the Lakers to the Knicks.  Mike Fratello ran with the Hawks and slowed it down with the Cavs... 

Doc just does what Doc has always done.  He's a system coach, not a roster coach.  I can't stand him any longer...
Title: Re: Doc will get fired soon
Post by: frosty33 on January 02, 2013, 09:21:08 PM
ainge already stated that he wouldn't fire doc
Title: Re: Doc will get fired soon
Post by: ScottHow on January 02, 2013, 09:27:18 PM
No.
Title: Re: Doc will get fired soon
Post by: OsirusCeltics on January 02, 2013, 09:31:31 PM
ainge already stated that he wouldn't fire doc

He also said he loved Perk like family, and was an important part of the Celtics
Title: Re: Doc will get fired soon
Post by: 33_Larry Legend_33 on January 02, 2013, 09:33:17 PM
ainge already stated that he wouldn't fire doc

He also said he loved Perk like family, and was an important part of the Celtics

I think he has a more amorous type of love for Doc. :)
Title: Re: Doc will get fired soon
Post by: Sketch5 on January 02, 2013, 09:33:34 PM
IF Doc is gone so is KF PP and Rondo. So unless its a complete blow up and maybe a Jeff VanGundy is knocking on the door, I don't see it happening.
Title: Re: Doc will get fired soon
Post by: Smitty77 on January 02, 2013, 09:36:03 PM
I guess that Rivers, Danny's buddy according to most of you all, doesn't have enough pull to demand to give Fab some actual playing time?????? 

I bet players would think twice after Fab knocks a few into the stands!!! 

Give the kid a chance.  Demand it Doc.  You have the pull with your buddy Danny.

Smitty77
Title: Re: Doc will get fired soon
Post by: JoT on January 02, 2013, 09:39:19 PM
IF Doc is gone so is KF PP and Rondo. So unless its a complete blow up and maybe a Jeff VanGundy is knocking on the door, I don't see it happening.
The bold is what I was about to state. If Doc leaves then most of the players will leave too since part of the reason why they either stayed or came to Boston was because of Doc.
Also Danny already stated that Doc is staying.
Title: Re: Doc will get fired soon
Post by: eja117 on January 02, 2013, 09:40:42 PM
Don't see it happening
If he continues to put Sullinger on Marc Gasol it could. That's just screaming "I made a bet on this game". It's beyond horrid coaching
Title: Re: Doc will get fired soon
Post by: GrandTheftRondo on January 02, 2013, 09:42:37 PM
Players can just up and leave the team in the middle of the season? News to me.

I don't know KG, PP and RR personally but I'm pretty sure they love winning more than they love the idea of Doc Rivers. They will get over it.

A change needs to be made. If that begins or ends with Doc, great.
Title: Re: Doc will get fired soon
Post by: SHAQATTACK on January 02, 2013, 09:45:25 PM
Can't happen..It would be the END of the Celtics as we know them.....

the team would have to be sold to another city and wear red jerseys
Title: Re: Doc will get fired soon
Post by: slamtheking on January 02, 2013, 09:49:50 PM
not going to happen.
Title: Re: Doc will get fired soon
Post by: celticslove on January 02, 2013, 09:50:51 PM
IF Doc is gone so is KF PP and Rondo. So unless its a complete blow up and maybe a Jeff VanGundy is knocking on the door, I don't see it happening.
just wondering if their contract is tied with glen the genius' contract?
Title: Re: Doc will get fired soon
Post by: Roy H. on January 02, 2013, 09:51:35 PM
I guess that Rivers, Danny's buddy according to most of you all, doesn't have enough pull to demand to give Fab some actual playing time?????? 

I bet players would think twice after Fab knocks a few into the stands!!! 

Give the kid a chance.  Demand it Doc.  You have the pull with your buddy Danny.

Smitty77

I think that if Doc wanted Melo on the active roster, he'd be there.
Title: Re: Doc will get fired soon
Post by: GrandTheftRondo on January 02, 2013, 09:52:02 PM
IF Doc is gone so is KF PP and Rondo. So unless its a complete blow up and maybe a Jeff VanGundy is knocking on the door, I don't see it happening.
just wondering if their contract is tied with glen the genius' contract?

TP.

Title: Re: Doc will get fired soon
Post by: eja117 on January 02, 2013, 09:52:32 PM
Has anyone considered praying to St Anthony? Because Doc's ability to coach is missing
Title: Re: Doc will get fired soon
Post by: SHAQATTACK on January 02, 2013, 09:54:14 PM
Has anyone considered praying to St Anthony? Because Doc's ability to coach is missing


I have ...I clutch the beads everytime Doc puts BASS and SUlly in together....
Title: Re: Doc will get fired soon
Post by: LarBrd33 on January 02, 2013, 09:55:09 PM
naah.  It's a lack of talent that's the problem... not coaching. 

If we don't make a move to bring in some big man help... get ready for the long winter.  Our true stars (Pierce and KG) are on their last legs.  Ray is already gone.  Rondo isn't the type of player to carry a team.
Title: Re: Doc will get fired soon
Post by: SHAQATTACK on January 02, 2013, 09:56:44 PM
naah.  It's a lack of talent that's the problem... not coaching. 

If we don't make a move to bring in some big man help... get ready for the long winter.  Our true stars (Pierce and KG) are on their last legs.  Ray is already gone.  Rondo isn't the type of player to carry a team.

 YUP TP !! That pretty much sums it all up  . 

Title: Re: Doc will get fired soon
Post by: eja117 on January 02, 2013, 09:57:51 PM
We look like a team whose coach is making bets...gotta beat the spread, right? Do you think maybe we beat the spread on that west coast trip?
Title: Re: Doc will get fired soon
Post by: Boston Garden Leprechaun on January 02, 2013, 09:59:51 PM
naah.  It's a lack of talent that's the problem... not coaching. 

If we don't make a move to bring in some big man help... get ready for the long winter.  Our true stars (Pierce and KG) are on their last legs.  Ray is already gone.  Rondo isn't the type of player to carry a team.

coaching is definitely an issue on offense. anybody can see it. what we try or fail to try to do. even if we fail we could still say we tried but do not have the horses. do not tell me we cannot attack the basket a myriad of different ways i have outlined here before. 
Title: Re: Doc will get fired soon
Post by: Smitty77 on January 02, 2013, 10:02:31 PM
Let me get this straight.  Doc playing Sullinger on Gasol was one of the FEW smart things he has done of late.  Sully had the highest +/- on our team (+10)!!!!!!!!!!!  Gasol shot 1-7.

Did I miss something????

We better NOT trade Sully. 

For that matter, I don't trade Avery or Melo either!!!

Make a small trade as many have mentioned such as picking up Dalembart and ride it out and see what happens.  We might make the playoffs and we might not.

DO NOT trade away our future pieces.

Rondo looks MAYBE 60%.

Smitty77
Title: Re: Doc will get fired soon
Post by: ssspence on January 02, 2013, 10:03:25 PM
Doc is one of the Cs top assets for the future. He'll be around as long as the Cs can keep him.

Title: Re: Doc will get fired soon
Post by: scaryjerry on January 02, 2013, 10:03:43 PM
Not going to happen although this roster could use a different coach...
Title: Re: Doc will get fired soon
Post by: Boston Garden Leprechaun on January 02, 2013, 10:04:02 PM
naah.  It's a lack of talent that's the problem... not coaching. 

If we don't make a move to bring in some big man help... get ready for the long winter.  Our true stars (Pierce and KG) are on their last legs.  Ray is already gone.  Rondo isn't the type of player to carry a team.

 YUP TP !! That pretty much sums it all up  .

nope. only part of it. we do not attack enough whether we fail or not. that is on doc. if they do not want to do that then coaches and players need to go. simple as that.
Title: Re: Doc will get fired soon
Post by: SHAQATTACK on January 02, 2013, 10:04:10 PM
Docs alright, he an't perfect  , we shr an't gonna do no better for ah coach ,  he just has to get his mind right about small ball and Danny get us some serious bigs. (TALENT)
Title: Re: Doc will get fired soon
Post by: Smitty77 on January 02, 2013, 10:05:13 PM
My point exactly Roy.  Doc is too stupid to see the benefit of calling up a prolific shotblocker!!!  Thanks for helping me get my point across:-))))

Smitty77
Title: Re: Doc will get fired soon
Post by: Boston Garden Leprechaun on January 02, 2013, 10:05:17 PM
Doc is one of the Cs top assets for the future. He'll be around as long as the Cs can keep him.

LOLOOLOLOLOLOL
Title: Re: Doc will get fired soon
Post by: clover on January 02, 2013, 10:05:49 PM
Doc is one of the Cs top assets for the future. He'll be around as long as the Cs can keep him.

Doc's a mixed bag and he does best when he has good assistants to cover for his weaknesses, but you're right: he's an asset to the team who helps attract talent.
Title: Re: Doc will get fired soon
Post by: kozlodoev on January 02, 2013, 10:08:10 PM
Doc is one of the Cs top assets for the future. He'll be around as long as the Cs can keep him.

Doc's a mixed bag and he does best when he has good assistants to cover for his weaknesses, but you're right: he's an asset to the team who helps attract talent.
He's really had _one_ good assistance in Tom Thibodeau. He won COTY all on his own, and I don't think Lawrence Frank was any sort of a coaching genius.
Title: Re: Doc will get fired soon
Post by: scaryjerry on January 02, 2013, 10:08:28 PM
Doc is one of the Cs top assets for the future. He'll be around as long as the Cs can keep him.

this season has done nothing to assure him being any kind of top asset for the future....his system sucks for many players and obviously he isnt going to tweak anything to fit players stregths. hes a manager of personalites at best, a guy like tom thibodeau is an actual coach
Title: Re: Doc will get fired soon
Post by: SHAQATTACK on January 02, 2013, 10:10:03 PM
Doc is one of the Cs top assets for the future. He'll be around as long as the Cs can keep him.

Doc's a mixed bag and he does best when he has good assistants to cover for his weaknesses, but you're right: he's an asset to the team who helps attract talent.

dats right...wif out Doc ..whos ya  gonna for a coach and talent dat want to play in Boston
Title: Re: Doc will get fired soon
Post by: indeedproceed on January 02, 2013, 10:10:59 PM
Doc is one of the Cs top assets for the future. He'll be around as long as the Cs can keep him.

LOLOOLOLOLOLOL

He's right. Boston as a city isn't sexy, Pierce and KG are gone this year or next, we've got Rondo, a tradition of winning, and a history of competent management. Docs a part of that, and hopefully Pierce remains in some capacity.
Title: Re: Doc will get fired soon
Post by: Boston Garden Leprechaun on January 02, 2013, 10:11:06 PM
Doc is one of the Cs top assets for the future. He'll be around as long as the Cs can keep him.

this season has done nothing to assure him being any kind of top asset for the future....his system sucks for many players and obviously he isnt going to tweak anything to fit players stregths. hes a manager of personalites at best, a guy like tom thibodeau is an actual coach

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^THIS^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Title: Re: Doc will get fired soon
Post by: Boston Garden Leprechaun on January 02, 2013, 10:16:46 PM
we have 4 dribble drivers of which only two even tried and one did not even see the court. not enough inside game from KG or sully. i have seen us be very dangerous when we actually try to do these things on a regular basis. oh wait. we have only done it two games in a row. nets and clippers. so much for trying on a regular basis. 
Title: Re: Doc will get fired soon
Post by: blink on January 02, 2013, 10:17:05 PM
Don't see it happening
If he continues to put Sullinger on Marc Gasol it could. That's just screaming "I made a bet on this game". It's beyond horrid coaching

Seriously, tell me who else Doc should put on Gasol if KG is on ZR?  What other 7' stud defender do we have on this team?  And don't say collins or I will throw up.
Title: Re: Doc will get fired soon
Post by: SHAQATTACK on January 02, 2013, 10:17:19 PM
Doc done won a Chamionship,  just like Sporstra or Jackson , if he got the talent ...Doc can get the job done.
You gotta have the horses,.

C's team is underpower to make a run .   maybe .500 ball team
Title: Re: Doc will get fired soon
Post by: SHAQATTACK on January 02, 2013, 10:19:18 PM
Don't see it happening
If he continues to put Sullinger on Marc Gasol it could. That's just screaming "I made a bet on this game". It's beyond horrid coaching

Seriously, tell me who else Doc should put on Gasol if KG is on ZR?  What other 7' stud defender do we have on this team?  And don't say collins or I will throw up.


Yes sir ....see dats what it is...we an't got the bigs to complete.. Sully an't play no 7 footers
Title: Re: Doc will get fired soon
Post by: blink on January 02, 2013, 10:19:54 PM
Doc is one of the Cs top assets for the future. He'll be around as long as the Cs can keep him.

LOLOOLOLOLOLOL

He's right. Boston as a city isn't sexy, Pierce and KG are gone this year or next, we've got Rondo, a tradition of winning, and a history of competent management. Docs a part of that, and hopefully Pierce remains in some capacity.

I agree with this 100%.  Regardless of what the leprechaun thinks, a lot of NBA players really respect Doc and want to play for him.  If others choose to ignore that I really wonder what coach they are thinking will be a better draw?
Title: Re: Doc will get fired soon
Post by: Who on January 02, 2013, 10:22:03 PM
Doc is one of the Cs top assets for the future. He'll be around as long as the Cs can keep him.

Doc's a mixed bag and he does best when he has good assistants to cover for his weaknesses, but you're right: he's an asset to the team who helps attract talent.
He's really had _one_ good assistance in Tom Thibodeau. He won COTY all on his own, and I don't think Lawrence Frank was any sort of a coaching genius.

I think Lawrence Frank is one of the best head coaches in the league at in game coaching decisions.

I question some of his other attributes as a head coach but I think he has a fantastic understanding of Xs and Os, in game adjustments, matchups and lineup decisions. He really does a terrific job for his teams with his in game decisions.
Title: Re: Doc will get fired soon
Post by: Boston Garden Leprechaun on January 02, 2013, 10:22:35 PM
Doc done won a Chamionship,  just like Sporstra or Jackson , if he got the talent ...Doc can get the job done.
You gotta have the horses,.

C's team is underpower to make a run .   maybe .500 ball team

talent can make a clown coach look good. see spoelstra. jackson? he had MJ. Shaq. Kobe. Gasol. how could he not win?  you have to be able to see if the guy is actually getting the most out of his guys and developing talent. and using a smart style to fit his players.

right now, doc is a failure at that.
Title: Re: Doc will get fired soon
Post by: SHAQATTACK on January 02, 2013, 10:29:05 PM
Doc done won a Chamionship,  just like Sporstra or Jackson , if he got the talent ...Doc can get the job done.
You gotta have the horses,.

C's team is underpower to make a run .   maybe .500 ball team

talent can make a clown coach look good. see spoelstra. jackson? he had MJ. Shaq. Kobe. Gasol. how could he not win?  you have to be able to see if the guy is actually getting the most out of his guys and developing talent. and using a smart style to fit his players.

right now, doc is a failure at that.


Doc is gonna step up and pull dis team though... he justs needs Danny Ainge to get him some help for his D' in the paint.
Title: Re: Doc will get fired soon
Post by: Boston Garden Leprechaun on January 02, 2013, 10:35:23 PM
Doc done won a Chamionship,  just like Sporstra or Jackson , if he got the talent ...Doc can get the job done.
You gotta have the horses,.

C's team is underpower to make a run .   maybe .500 ball team

talent can make a clown coach look good. see spoelstra. jackson? he had MJ. Shaq. Kobe. Gasol. how could he not win?  you have to be able to see if the guy is actually getting the most out of his guys and developing talent. and using a smart style to fit his players.

right now, doc is a failure at that.


Doc is gonna step up and pull dis team though... he justs needs Danny Ainge to get him some help for his D' in the paint.

GOD help us if not. and BTW, i am not saying doc has failed developing melo or sully only that it is part of the equation in grading a coach along with style and getting the most out of each player.

way too soon to judge him on that. we can do that in a couple years if doc is still here then.
Title: Re: Doc will get fired soon
Post by: Rtpas11 on January 02, 2013, 10:50:47 PM
Danny will be gone before Doc. Doc isn't going anywhere because as some of us have already stated.... K.G. will retire, probably Pierce & Rondo will make a trade request. That ain't happening.

btw your boy Jason Collins did it again. 2 pts. 2 pf....lol starting center for a contender... yeah right!

Fab Melo could surely do better. C'mon Doc do something!
Title: Re: Doc will get fired soon
Post by: SHAQATTACK on January 02, 2013, 10:58:56 PM
Doc done won a Chamionship,  just like Sporstra or Jackson , if he got the talent ...Doc can get the job done.
You gotta have the horses,.

C's team is underpower to make a run .   maybe .500 ball team

talent can make a clown coach look good. see spoelstra. jackson? he had MJ. Shaq. Kobe. Gasol. how could he not win?  you have to be able to see if the guy is actually getting the most out of his guys and developing talent. and using a smart style to fit his players.

right now, doc is a failure at that.


Doc is gonna step up and pull dis team though... he justs needs Danny Ainge to get him some help for his D' in the paint.

GOD help us if not. and BTW, i am not saying doc has failed developing melo or sully only that it is part of the equation in grading a coach along with style and getting the most out of each player.

way too soon to judge him on that. we can do that in a couple years if doc is still here then.

Look bro ,we knows dis an't gonna be no picnic over the next two years,  can't have no mutiny against Doc...he be the best chance we got over the longhaul .  Just look a the Lakers, would you rather be on dat ship wif dat captain.  Naw mans... we gots us a good head coach. Maybe we need new assistants to advise Doc sum, good ones like we lost.
Title: Re: Doc will get fired soon
Post by: StartOrien on January 02, 2013, 11:00:57 PM
(http://blogimages.thescore.com/tbj/files/2011/02/chris-bosh-nope.jpg)
Title: Re: Doc will get fired soon
Post by: StartOrien on January 02, 2013, 11:02:12 PM
To be clear I don't think he'll be fired nor should he be,

But I've often wondered why the Celtics offense hasn't been better throughout the years. He's a great play caller out of timeouts, and the roster has always had a good deal of fire power. Never could understand why we're always near the middle of the pack offensively.
Title: Re: Doc will get fired soon
Post by: Chief Macho on January 02, 2013, 11:04:51 PM
It ain't happening and if it does it won't make a difference. This team isn't talented enough.
Title: Re: Doc will get fired soon
Post by: indeedproceed on January 02, 2013, 11:10:31 PM
To be clear I don't think he'll be fired nor should he be,

But I've often wondered why the Celtics offense hasn't been better throughout the years. He's a great play caller out of timeouts, and the roster has always had a good deal of fire power. Never could understand why we're always near the middle of the pack offensively.

The TS% numbers were always good, esp when Ray and Pierce were shooting 40%+ from deep.

But we're a jump shooting team. Our best penetration threats are a sometimes unwilling Rondo, and an aging pierce. So if our jumper isn't falling, our PPPossession numbers are up and down at best.

Defense was always the strength.

Hey you guys remember when Pierce, KG, and Ray were all in their early-30s?
Title: Re: Doc will get fired soon
Post by: OsirusCeltics on January 02, 2013, 11:23:16 PM
Don't see it happening
If he continues to put Sullinger on Marc Gasol it could. That's just screaming "I made a bet on this game". It's beyond horrid coaching

Seriously, tell me who else Doc should put on Gasol if KG is on ZR?  What other 7' stud defender do we have on this team?  And don't say collins or I will throw up.

Why not just switch Sullinger on Randolph, and put KG on Gasol?
Title: Re: Doc will get fired soon
Post by: lightspeed5 on January 02, 2013, 11:24:55 PM
Don't see it happening
If he continues to put Sullinger on Marc Gasol it could. That's just screaming "I made a bet on this game". It's beyond horrid coaching

Seriously, tell me who else Doc should put on Gasol if KG is on ZR?  What other 7' stud defender do we have on this team?  And don't say collins or I will throw up.

Why not just switch Sullinger on Randolph, and put KG on Gasol?
because kg on gasol is a bad match up.
Title: Re: Doc will get fired soon
Post by: OsirusCeltics on January 02, 2013, 11:32:04 PM
Don't see it happening
If he continues to put Sullinger on Marc Gasol it could. That's just screaming "I made a bet on this game". It's beyond horrid coaching

Seriously, tell me who else Doc should put on Gasol if KG is on ZR?  What other 7' stud defender do we have on this team?  And don't say collins or I will throw up.

Why not just switch Sullinger on Randolph, and put KG on Gasol?
because kg on gasol is a bad match up.

True, got a point. But you can't play the center position and shy away from real centers
Title: Re: Doc will get fired soon
Post by: pearljammer10 on January 02, 2013, 11:51:22 PM
Not a chance.
Title: Re: Doc will get fired soon
Post by: crownsy on January 02, 2013, 11:52:08 PM
If this this historic losing streak continues, Doc will by gone by January 20th!!!

He is an average coach at best, and he apparently has LOST this team.

This is sad.  The effort is pitiful.  The commitment to small ball by Doc is simply astonishing. 

We might be playing the WORST basketball in the NBA.

Smitty77

historic losing streak? we've lost 4 games in a row.

and no, we are not playing THE WORST basketball in the NBA, some teams haven't hit double digits in the W column yet.

They aren't going to fire a Coach who is 3 games under .500 1/4 into the season who just took his team to the conference finals.

Now, if this keeps up another month or two, then the rumblings will start.
Title: Re: Doc will get fired soon
Post by: LEHGOCELTICS on January 03, 2013, 12:11:28 AM
As much as I don't agree with some of Doc's rotations, firing Doc just makes no sense. The primary culprit is the personnel.
Title: Re: Doc will get fired soon
Post by: Bosstown on January 03, 2013, 12:35:23 AM
And who are we going to hire? Who? Seriously? No one can help this team right now outside of Danny, the team sucks. The personnel is the issue. Doc has TOO MANY options and Danny needs to get him 7-8 guys who clearly belong in the rotation. Get Doc the right players and he will lead this team to victory.

Not even Phil Jackson is going to win with Jason Collins starting at center...without a Micheal or Kobe...we don't have one of those.  ::)
Title: Re: Doc will get fired soon
Post by: MBunge on January 03, 2013, 10:16:23 AM
The TS% numbers were always good, esp when Ray and Pierce were shooting 40%+ from deep.

But we're a jump shooting team. Our best penetration threats are a sometimes unwilling Rondo, and an aging pierce. So if our jumper isn't falling, our PPPossession numbers are up and down at best.

Defense was always the strength.

Hey you guys remember when Pierce, KG, and Ray were all in their early-30s?

What about other offensive measures, like number of shots, number of free throws, turnovers and numbers of quarters below 20 points?  How about building an offense that doesn't rely on jump shooting?  How about NOT starting out this season expecting Terry and Lee to run the exact same plays that Ray did when he was here?

Mike
Title: Re: Doc will get fired soon
Post by: Moranis on January 03, 2013, 10:22:08 AM
I have never been a Doc Rivers fan.  I have always found him to be a phony and a bit two faced i.e. says one thing, but does another.  That said, I can't imagine he could do anything that would get him fired this season.  Perhaps in the off season, but even that is highly unlikely, and would only be possible if Boston has a horrible season, doesn't make the playoffs, and Doc seems to be a problem (as opposed to the players). 

Honestly I think Ainge is closer to being fired than Rivers given Ainge saddled the team with a lot of big long contracts on players he shouldn't have.  That seems to be a bigger problem from an ownership standpoint (after all Doc can only coach the players Ainge gave him).
Title: Re: Doc will get fired soon
Post by: Chris on January 03, 2013, 10:26:47 AM
Even if this team completely tanks, Doc will make it to the end of the season at least.  Danny and ownership have too much respect for him, and they also realize that if they fire him midseason, its more likely to hurt the team more, because the players love him, than it is to fix anything. 
Title: Re: Doc will get fired soon
Post by: indeedproceed on January 03, 2013, 10:48:03 AM
The TS% numbers were always good, esp when Ray and Pierce were shooting 40%+ from deep.

But we're a jump shooting team. Our best penetration threats are a sometimes unwilling Rondo, and an aging pierce. So if our jumper isn't falling, our PPPossession numbers are up and down at best.

Defense was always the strength.

Hey you guys remember when Pierce, KG, and Ray were all in their early-30s?

What about other offensive measures, like number of shots

The Celtics have been among the league's slowest teams consistently in the KG era (by slowest I mean # of possessions (shots or turnovers) per 48 minutes, PACE).

If you took all the NBA teams since KG's acquisition and sorted them by PACE, you wouldn't get to a Celtics team until #91.

It has historically been a product of an emphasis on defense, and a lack of second chance opportunities, which is a conscious choice.

Quote
number of free throws

Yup, that's a real problem. But you know, the Celtics have been usually right in the middle of the pack in terms of another stat, FT/FGA, or free throws per shot attempt. Something to think about. 

Quote
turnovers

Always been a problem. But, its a bit mitigated by the assist numbers. The Celtics have been among the top two teams in the league in AST ratio (the % of team possessions that end in an assist), and in eFG%.

Quote
and numbers of quarters below 20 points?  How about building an offense that doesn't rely on jump shooting?  How about NOT starting out this season expecting Terry and Lee to run the exact same plays that Ray did when he was here?

Mike

This stuff I got nothin for.
Title: Re: Doc will get fired soon
Post by: scaryjerry on January 03, 2013, 10:48:09 AM
To be clear I don't think he'll be fired nor should he be,

But I've often wondered why the Celtics offense hasn't been better throughout the years. He's a great play caller out of timeouts, and the roster has always had a good deal of fire power. Never could understand why we're always near the middle of the pack offensively.

an elementary student or a high school dropout could draw up out of timeout basketball plays...completely overrated....
Title: Re: Doc will get fired soon
Post by: Snakehead on January 03, 2013, 10:53:06 AM
To be clear I don't think he'll be fired nor should he be,

But I've often wondered why the Celtics offense hasn't been better throughout the years. He's a great play caller out of timeouts, and the roster has always had a good deal of fire power. Never could understand why we're always near the middle of the pack offensively.

an elementary student or a high school dropout could draw up out of timeout basketball plays...completely overrated

Then why is Doc so much better at it than almost all coaches in the league?
Title: Re: Doc will get fired soon
Post by: scaryjerry on January 03, 2013, 10:56:35 AM
To be clear I don't think he'll be fired nor should he be,

But I've often wondered why the Celtics offense hasn't been better throughout the years. He's a great play caller out of timeouts, and the roster has always had a good deal of fire power. Never could understand why we're always near the middle of the pack offensively.

an elementary student or a high school dropout could draw up out of timeout basketball plays...completely overrated

Then why is Doc so much better at it than almost all coaches in the league?

yeah because a Paul pierce iso or Rondo to kg alley pop is rocket science....face it they need no coach at all to do these plays
Title: Re: Doc will get fired soon
Post by: Snakehead on January 03, 2013, 11:00:05 AM
To be clear I don't think he'll be fired nor should he be,

But I've often wondered why the Celtics offense hasn't been better throughout the years. He's a great play caller out of timeouts, and the roster has always had a good deal of fire power. Never could understand why we're always near the middle of the pack offensively.

an elementary student or a high school dropout could draw up out of timeout basketball plays...completely overrated

Then why is Doc so much better at it than almost all coaches in the league?

yeah because a Paul pierce iso or Rondo to kg alley pop is rocket science....face it they need no coach at all to do these plays

Uh no.  I won't face that because it's not true.
Title: Re: Doc will get fired soon
Post by: nickagneta on January 03, 2013, 11:10:16 AM
To be clear I don't think he'll be fired nor should he be,

But I've often wondered why the Celtics offense hasn't been better throughout the years. He's a great play caller out of timeouts, and the roster has always had a good deal of fire power. Never could understand why we're always near the middle of the pack offensively.
Pace. They have always been amongst the most efficient offenses since the Big Three Era started but their pace is always one of the slowest in the league so therefore, overall PPG, their offense is middle of the pack.
Title: Re: Doc will get fired soon
Post by: kozlodoev on January 03, 2013, 11:41:42 AM
To be clear I don't think he'll be fired nor should he be,

But I've often wondered why the Celtics offense hasn't been better throughout the years. He's a great play caller out of timeouts, and the roster has always had a good deal of fire power. Never could understand why we're always near the middle of the pack offensively.
Pace. They have always been amongst the most efficient offenses since the Big Three Era started but their pace is always one of the slowest in the league so therefore, overall PPG, their offense is middle of the pack.
I don't know what reasonable person would use PPG as a measure of offense. We've been consistently a top team in terms of raw shooting percentage -- including this season (6th in the league). The problem is we can no longer stop anyone (21st in the league in opponent FG%, compare to 2nd in the 2008-2009 season, for example).
Title: Re: Doc will get fired soon
Post by: MBunge on January 03, 2013, 11:54:55 AM
To be clear I don't think he'll be fired nor should he be,

But I've often wondered why the Celtics offense hasn't been better throughout the years. He's a great play caller out of timeouts, and the roster has always had a good deal of fire power. Never could understand why we're always near the middle of the pack offensively.
Pace. They have always been amongst the most efficient offenses since the Big Three Era started but their pace is always one of the slowest in the league so therefore, overall PPG, their offense is middle of the pack.
I don't know what reasonable person would use PPG as a measure of offense. We've been consistently a top team in terms of raw shooting percentage -- including this season (6th in the league). The problem is we can no longer stop anyone (21st in the league in opponent FG%, compare to 2nd in the 2008-2009 season, for example).

You can monkey around with stats to prove almost anything.  Sometimes you just gotta look at the bottom line.

Boston's lost 17 games this year.  In 10 of those losses, they scored less than 90 points.  Even if they were playing excellent defense, there's a pretty good chance they still would have lost most of those games.  So if Boston were playing great D, that would only make the difference between being 14-17 and being...what?  16-15?  17-14?  18-13?  Better, but still faaaaaar below what just about everyone expected of them this season.

Mike
Title: Re: Doc will get fired soon
Post by: Roy H. on January 03, 2013, 12:00:20 PM
To be clear I don't think he'll be fired nor should he be,

But I've often wondered why the Celtics offense hasn't been better throughout the years. He's a great play caller out of timeouts, and the roster has always had a good deal of fire power. Never could understand why we're always near the middle of the pack offensively.
Pace. They have always been amongst the most efficient offenses since the Big Three Era started but their pace is always one of the slowest in the league so therefore, overall PPG, their offense is middle of the pack.

Our ranks in offensive efficiency:

2008:  10th
2009: 6th
2010: 15th
2011: 18th
2012: 27th
2013: 24th

It's not just pace, then.  When regulated per 100 possessions, our offense has been pretty bad for awhile now.  Part of that is turnovers, and part is lack of offensive rebounding, but whatever the cause, the offense is broken relative to the rest of the league.
Title: Re: Doc will get fired soon
Post by: cltc5 on January 03, 2013, 12:09:20 PM
i hope ;D.  I like doc, but I've seen nothing that suggests he's a great nba coach with the personnel exits since 2008.
Title: Re: Doc will get fired soon
Post by: celtics2 on January 03, 2013, 12:13:00 PM
It's way too late to fire Doc. This years Team was constructed, coached and played wrong. Play the season out and clean house after. In 5 years or so Celts will contest again. The Celtics will never attain the level of respect at least from my era ever again. Doc hasn't done a bad job, just not good enough for the Celtics.
Title: Re: Doc will get fired soon
Post by: indeedproceed on January 03, 2013, 12:13:28 PM
To be clear I don't think he'll be fired nor should he be,

But I've often wondered why the Celtics offense hasn't been better throughout the years. He's a great play caller out of timeouts, and the roster has always had a good deal of fire power. Never could understand why we're always near the middle of the pack offensively.
Pace. They have always been amongst the most efficient offenses since the Big Three Era started but their pace is always one of the slowest in the league so therefore, overall PPG, their offense is middle of the pack.
I don't know what reasonable person would use PPG as a measure of offense. We've been consistently a top team in terms of raw shooting percentage -- including this season (6th in the league). The problem is we can no longer stop anyone (21st in the league in opponent FG%, compare to 2nd in the 2008-2009 season, for example).

You can monkey around with stats to prove almost anything.  Sometimes you just gotta look at the bottom line.

But I mean, what exactly are people proving? Nobody is proving that the C's have a good team this year.

Quote
Boston's lost 17 games this year.  In 10 of those losses, they scored less than 90 points.  Even if they were playing excellent defense, there's a pretty good chance they still would have lost most of those games.  So if Boston were playing great D, that would only make the difference between being 14-17 and being...what?  16-15?  17-14?  18-13?  Better, but still faaaaaar below what just about everyone expected of them this season.

Mike

Boston is currently allowing 102.1 points per 100 possessions.

Last season they allowed 95.5, the season before 97.8, the season before that 101.1, before that 99.4, before that 99.4 points per 100 possessions, and KG's first season they allowed a phenomenal 82.2 points per 100 possessions.

If we had had any of those other seasons defensively in place of this one, we'd likely be near the 20-10 mark, just from the points differential.

EDIT: Actually, not true. In a strict 1-for-1 comparison, 09-10 would be a close to .500 year, but the entire league was up that season in terms of scoring.
Title: Re: Doc will get fired soon
Post by: kozlodoev on January 03, 2013, 12:25:19 PM
Oh, so taking raw shooting percentage is "monkeying with stats" now? Or is "look at the bottom line" some sort of new lingo for "just ignore the facts and soldier on".

Our ranks in shooting percentage:

2008: 4th
2009: 2nd
2010: 4th
2011: 1nd
2012: 5th
2013: 6th

We've been a team that consistenty takes good shots. To me, that's a sign of good offensive execution and efficiency. I've never understood why an offensive rebound is not considered an extra possession.
Title: Re: Doc will get fired soon
Post by: indeedproceed on January 03, 2013, 12:32:08 PM
I've never understood why an offensive rebound is not considered an extra possession.

I've always thought that weird as well.
Title: Re: Doc will get fired soon
Post by: Roy H. on January 03, 2013, 12:34:18 PM
Oh, so taking raw shooting percentage is "monkeying with stats" now? Or is "look at the bottom line" some sort of new lingo for "just ignore the facts and soldier on".

Our ranks in shooting percentage:

2008: 4th
2009: 2nd
2010: 4th
2011: 1nd
2012: 5th
2013: 6th

We've been a team that consistenty takes good shots. To me, that's a sign of good offensive execution and efficiency. I've never understood why an offensive rebound is not considered an extra possession.

If you look at it as "how likely is a team to score on a trip down the floor", it makes sense.  Offensive efficiency is essentially a measure of how likely a team is to put the ball in the basket.  Likewise, defensive efficiency measures how likely a team is to stop the other team from scoring.  A "possession" only ends when the opposing team gets the ball.

Under our standard, we're very poor relative to our peers.
Title: Re: Doc will get fired soon
Post by: Chris on January 03, 2013, 12:36:45 PM
Oh, so taking raw shooting percentage is "monkeying with stats" now? Or is "look at the bottom line" some sort of new lingo for "just ignore the facts and soldier on".

Our ranks in shooting percentage:

2008: 4th
2009: 2nd
2010: 4th
2011: 1nd
2012: 5th
2013: 6th

We've been a team that consistenty takes good shots. To me, that's a sign of good offensive execution and efficiency. I've never understood why an offensive rebound is not considered an extra possession.

If you look at it as "how likely is a team to score on a trip down the floor", it makes sense.

Under our standard, we're very poor relative to our peers.

And just anecdotal, that seems to be the case.  We have way too many scoring slumps, the offense just disappears completely for long stretches. 
Title: Re: Doc will get fired soon
Post by: MBunge on January 03, 2013, 12:42:24 PM
To be clear I don't think he'll be fired nor should he be,

But I've often wondered why the Celtics offense hasn't been better throughout the years. He's a great play caller out of timeouts, and the roster has always had a good deal of fire power. Never could understand why we're always near the middle of the pack offensively.
Pace. They have always been amongst the most efficient offenses since the Big Three Era started but their pace is always one of the slowest in the league so therefore, overall PPG, their offense is middle of the pack.
I don't know what reasonable person would use PPG as a measure of offense. We've been consistently a top team in terms of raw shooting percentage -- including this season (6th in the league). The problem is we can no longer stop anyone (21st in the league in opponent FG%, compare to 2nd in the 2008-2009 season, for example).

You can monkey around with stats to prove almost anything.  Sometimes you just gotta look at the bottom line.

But I mean, what exactly are people proving? Nobody is proving that the C's have a good team this year.

Quote
Boston's lost 17 games this year.  In 10 of those losses, they scored less than 90 points.  Even if they were playing excellent defense, there's a pretty good chance they still would have lost most of those games.  So if Boston were playing great D, that would only make the difference between being 14-17 and being...what?  16-15?  17-14?  18-13?  Better, but still faaaaaar below what just about everyone expected of them this season.

Mike

Boston is currently allowing 102.1 points per 100 possessions.


If we're going by points per 100 possessions, Boston's defense is ranked 14th in the league.  That's better than Miami.  Boston's offense per 100 possessions, though, is tied for 20th.  So, even by that standard, it's the offense that's as much or more of a problem than the defense.

Mike
Title: Re: Doc will get fired soon
Post by: kozlodoev on January 03, 2013, 12:43:00 PM
Oh, so taking raw shooting percentage is "monkeying with stats" now? Or is "look at the bottom line" some sort of new lingo for "just ignore the facts and soldier on".

Our ranks in shooting percentage:

2008: 4th
2009: 2nd
2010: 4th
2011: 1nd
2012: 5th
2013: 6th

We've been a team that consistenty takes good shots. To me, that's a sign of good offensive execution and efficiency. I've never understood why an offensive rebound is not considered an extra possession.

If you look at it as "how likely is a team to score on a trip down the floor", it makes sense.  Offensive efficiency is essentially a measure of how likely a team is to put the ball in the basket.  Likewise, defensive efficiency measures how likely a team is to stop the other team from scoring.  A "possession" only ends when the opposing team gets the ball.

Under our standard, we're very poor relative to our peers.
Right, and why is an offensive rebound not considered a "new trip down the floor"? In my mind, each trip ends with a shot, turnover, or a shooting foul. Not to mention that adding 0.44*PF to the number of possessions is a dodgy mechanic at best.
Title: Re: Doc will get fired soon
Post by: MBunge on January 03, 2013, 12:45:30 PM
Oh, so taking raw shooting percentage is "monkeying with stats" now? Or is "look at the bottom line" some sort of new lingo for "just ignore the facts and soldier on".

Our ranks in shooting percentage:

2008: 4th
2009: 2nd
2010: 4th
2011: 1nd
2012: 5th
2013: 6th

We've been a team that consistenty takes good shots. To me, that's a sign of good offensive execution and efficiency. I've never understood why an offensive rebound is not considered an extra possession.

It's monkeying around with stats when you take ONE stat and declare that it's the ONLY stat that matters and NOTHING else.

Yes, if the ONLY thing we consider is shooting percentages, Boston's offense looks pretty good.  However, there are several other factors that are also important in truly determining the quality of a team's offense.  I'm not sure what that should be hard for anyone to understand.

Mike
Title: Re: Doc will get fired soon
Post by: Edgar on January 03, 2013, 12:46:46 PM
To be clear I don't think he'll be fired nor should he be,

But I've often wondered why the Celtics offense hasn't been better throughout the years. He's a great play caller out of timeouts, and the roster has always had a good deal of fire power. Never could understand why we're always near the middle of the pack offensively.

an elementary student or a high school dropout could draw up out of timeout basketball plays...completely overrated

Then why is Doc so much better at it than almost all coaches in the league?

yeah because a Paul pierce iso or Rondo to kg alley pop is rocket science....face it they need no coach at all to do these plays

:D
sad but true
Title: Re: Doc will get fired soon
Post by: Roy H. on January 03, 2013, 12:47:34 PM
Oh, so taking raw shooting percentage is "monkeying with stats" now? Or is "look at the bottom line" some sort of new lingo for "just ignore the facts and soldier on".

Our ranks in shooting percentage:

2008: 4th
2009: 2nd
2010: 4th
2011: 1nd
2012: 5th
2013: 6th

We've been a team that consistenty takes good shots. To me, that's a sign of good offensive execution and efficiency. I've never understood why an offensive rebound is not considered an extra possession.

If you look at it as "how likely is a team to score on a trip down the floor", it makes sense.  Offensive efficiency is essentially a measure of how likely a team is to put the ball in the basket.  Likewise, defensive efficiency measures how likely a team is to stop the other team from scoring.  A "possession" only ends when the opposing team gets the ball.

Under our standard, we're very poor relative to our peers.
Right, and why is an offensive rebound not considered a "new trip down the floor"? In my mind, each trip ends with a shot, turnover, or a shooting foul. Not to mention that adding 0.44*PF to the number of possessions is a dodgy mechanic at best.

It's not a new trip down the floor because the same team is keeping possession.
Title: Re: Doc will get fired soon
Post by: kozlodoev on January 03, 2013, 12:49:17 PM
Oh, so taking raw shooting percentage is "monkeying with stats" now? Or is "look at the bottom line" some sort of new lingo for "just ignore the facts and soldier on".

Our ranks in shooting percentage:

2008: 4th
2009: 2nd
2010: 4th
2011: 1nd
2012: 5th
2013: 6th

We've been a team that consistenty takes good shots. To me, that's a sign of good offensive execution and efficiency. I've never understood why an offensive rebound is not considered an extra possession.

It's monkeying around with stats when you take ONE stat and declare that it's the ONLY stat that matters and NOTHING else.

Yes, if the ONLY thing we consider is shooting percentages, Boston's offense looks pretty good.  However, there are several other factors that are also important in truly determining the quality of a team's offense.  I'm not sure what that should be hard for anyone to understand.

Mike
Like, for example, points per game, or something? :P
Title: Re: Doc will get fired soon
Post by: indeedproceed on January 03, 2013, 12:56:08 PM
To be clear I don't think he'll be fired nor should he be,

But I've often wondered why the Celtics offense hasn't been better throughout the years. He's a great play caller out of timeouts, and the roster has always had a good deal of fire power. Never could understand why we're always near the middle of the pack offensively.
Pace. They have always been amongst the most efficient offenses since the Big Three Era started but their pace is always one of the slowest in the league so therefore, overall PPG, their offense is middle of the pack.
I don't know what reasonable person would use PPG as a measure of offense. We've been consistently a top team in terms of raw shooting percentage -- including this season (6th in the league). The problem is we can no longer stop anyone (21st in the league in opponent FG%, compare to 2nd in the 2008-2009 season, for example).

You can monkey around with stats to prove almost anything.  Sometimes you just gotta look at the bottom line.

But I mean, what exactly are people proving? Nobody is proving that the C's have a good team this year.

Quote
Boston's lost 17 games this year.  In 10 of those losses, they scored less than 90 points.  Even if they were playing excellent defense, there's a pretty good chance they still would have lost most of those games.  So if Boston were playing great D, that would only make the difference between being 14-17 and being...what?  16-15?  17-14?  18-13?  Better, but still faaaaaar below what just about everyone expected of them this season.

Mike

Boston is currently allowing 102.1 points per 100 possessions.


If we're going by points per 100 possessions, Boston's defense is ranked 14th in the league.  That's better than Miami.  Boston's offense per 100 possessions, though, is tied for 20th.  So, even by that standard, it's the offense that's as much or more of a problem than the defense.

Mike

The point I was making was that if our defense were up to the standards its been consistently since KG was here, our offense would be a mild annoyance. Without the defense it means a losing record.
Title: Re: Doc will get fired soon
Post by: MBunge on January 03, 2013, 12:57:04 PM
Oh, so taking raw shooting percentage is "monkeying with stats" now? Or is "look at the bottom line" some sort of new lingo for "just ignore the facts and soldier on".

Our ranks in shooting percentage:

2008: 4th
2009: 2nd
2010: 4th
2011: 1nd
2012: 5th
2013: 6th

We've been a team that consistenty takes good shots. To me, that's a sign of good offensive execution and efficiency. I've never understood why an offensive rebound is not considered an extra possession.

It's monkeying around with stats when you take ONE stat and declare that it's the ONLY stat that matters and NOTHING else.

Yes, if the ONLY thing we consider is shooting percentages, Boston's offense looks pretty good.  However, there are several other factors that are also important in truly determining the quality of a team's offense.  I'm not sure what that should be hard for anyone to understand.

Mike
Like, for example, points per game, or something? :P

Do you understand how a discussion works, let alone an argument?

Person A makes a point.
Then, Person B makes a point.
Then, Person A responds to Person B's point.
Then, Person B responds to Person A's response.

It's impossible to have a productive discussion or argument is Person A just keeps repeating the same point over and over and over again.  If "shooting percentage!" is all you're going to contribute, there's no way to make this into a conversation.

Mike

Title: Re: Doc will get fired soon
Post by: kozlodoev on January 03, 2013, 01:00:55 PM
Do you understand how a discussion works, let alone an argument?

Person A makes a point.
Then, Person B makes a point.
Then, Person A responds to Person B's point.
Then, Person B responds to Person A's response.
Yes, like for example person A brings in points per game, and person B brings in shooting percentage.
Title: Re: Doc will get fired soon
Post by: kozlodoev on January 03, 2013, 01:03:39 PM
Oh, so taking raw shooting percentage is "monkeying with stats" now? Or is "look at the bottom line" some sort of new lingo for "just ignore the facts and soldier on".

Our ranks in shooting percentage:

2008: 4th
2009: 2nd
2010: 4th
2011: 1nd
2012: 5th
2013: 6th

We've been a team that consistenty takes good shots. To me, that's a sign of good offensive execution and efficiency. I've never understood why an offensive rebound is not considered an extra possession.

If you look at it as "how likely is a team to score on a trip down the floor", it makes sense.  Offensive efficiency is essentially a measure of how likely a team is to put the ball in the basket.  Likewise, defensive efficiency measures how likely a team is to stop the other team from scoring.  A "possession" only ends when the opposing team gets the ball.

Under our standard, we're very poor relative to our peers.
Right, and why is an offensive rebound not considered a "new trip down the floor"? In my mind, each trip ends with a shot, turnover, or a shooting foul. Not to mention that adding 0.44*PF to the number of possessions is a dodgy mechanic at best.

It's not a new trip down the floor because the same team is keeping possession.
Even if the same team is keeping the ball, they get a new clock. That's how I see it.
Title: Re: Doc will get fired soon
Post by: Fafnir on January 03, 2013, 01:04:39 PM
Oh, so taking raw shooting percentage is "monkeying with stats" now? Or is "look at the bottom line" some sort of new lingo for "just ignore the facts and soldier on".

Our ranks in shooting percentage:

2008: 4th
2009: 2nd
2010: 4th
2011: 1nd
2012: 5th
2013: 6th

We've been a team that consistenty takes good shots. To me, that's a sign of good offensive execution and efficiency. I've never understood why an offensive rebound is not considered an extra possession.

If you look at it as "how likely is a team to score on a trip down the floor", it makes sense.  Offensive efficiency is essentially a measure of how likely a team is to put the ball in the basket.  Likewise, defensive efficiency measures how likely a team is to stop the other team from scoring.  A "possession" only ends when the opposing team gets the ball.

Under our standard, we're very poor relative to our peers.
Right, and why is an offensive rebound not considered a "new trip down the floor"? In my mind, each trip ends with a shot, turnover, or a shooting foul. Not to mention that adding 0.44*PF to the number of possessions is a dodgy mechanic at best.

It's not a new trip down the floor because the same team is keeping possession.
It depends on what you want to evaluate.

The ability of a team to score the ball given one 24 second shot clock to work with, or the ability to generate offense over an entire game in totality. Getting more shots than the other team is certainly an offensive "skill" of teams.

I'm sympathetic to the idea that offensive rebounds should be a new possession. It separates out even better "possession creation" that otherwise is limited to steals and/or forced turnovers.

But really either way its all about how you organize the data, creating more shots for your team is a great way to get wins.
Title: Re: Doc will get fired soon
Post by: kozlodoev on January 03, 2013, 01:15:28 PM
Oh, so taking raw shooting percentage is "monkeying with stats" now? Or is "look at the bottom line" some sort of new lingo for "just ignore the facts and soldier on".

Our ranks in shooting percentage:

2008: 4th
2009: 2nd
2010: 4th
2011: 1nd
2012: 5th
2013: 6th

We've been a team that consistenty takes good shots. To me, that's a sign of good offensive execution and efficiency. I've never understood why an offensive rebound is not considered an extra possession.

If you look at it as "how likely is a team to score on a trip down the floor", it makes sense.  Offensive efficiency is essentially a measure of how likely a team is to put the ball in the basket.  Likewise, defensive efficiency measures how likely a team is to stop the other team from scoring.  A "possession" only ends when the opposing team gets the ball.

Under our standard, we're very poor relative to our peers.
Right, and why is an offensive rebound not considered a "new trip down the floor"? In my mind, each trip ends with a shot, turnover, or a shooting foul. Not to mention that adding 0.44*PF to the number of possessions is a dodgy mechanic at best.

It's not a new trip down the floor because the same team is keeping possession.
It depends on what you want to evaluate.

The ability of a team to score the ball given one 24 second shot clock to work with, or the ability to generate offense over an entire game in totality. Getting more shots than the other team is certainly an offensive "skill" of teams.

I'm sympathetic to the idea that offensive rebounds should be a new possession. It separates out even better "possession creation" that otherwise is limited to steals and/or forced turnovers.

But really either way its all about how you organize the data, creating more shots for your team is a great way to get wins.
As I understand is, the idea of PPP is to normalize for the fact that some teams just take less time of the shot clock to work with, thereby resulting in more raw stats per game, for obvious reasons.

I can't agree that having the ability to score more points per one "holding of the ball", irrespective of how long it lasts and how many shots you take in the process is any sort of meaningful measure of how good your team is offensively.

Why should be a team who takes two shots and misses one (1 PPP) considered worse offensively than a team that sandwiches an offensive rebound between the two misses (2 PPP)? It just doesn't make much sense.
Title: Re: Doc will get fired soon
Post by: Roy H. on January 03, 2013, 01:29:10 PM
Oh, so taking raw shooting percentage is "monkeying with stats" now? Or is "look at the bottom line" some sort of new lingo for "just ignore the facts and soldier on".

Our ranks in shooting percentage:

2008: 4th
2009: 2nd
2010: 4th
2011: 1nd
2012: 5th
2013: 6th

We've been a team that consistenty takes good shots. To me, that's a sign of good offensive execution and efficiency. I've never understood why an offensive rebound is not considered an extra possession.

If you look at it as "how likely is a team to score on a trip down the floor", it makes sense.  Offensive efficiency is essentially a measure of how likely a team is to put the ball in the basket.  Likewise, defensive efficiency measures how likely a team is to stop the other team from scoring.  A "possession" only ends when the opposing team gets the ball.

Under our standard, we're very poor relative to our peers.
Right, and why is an offensive rebound not considered a "new trip down the floor"? In my mind, each trip ends with a shot, turnover, or a shooting foul. Not to mention that adding 0.44*PF to the number of possessions is a dodgy mechanic at best.

It's not a new trip down the floor because the same team is keeping possession.
It depends on what you want to evaluate.

The ability of a team to score the ball given one 24 second shot clock to work with, or the ability to generate offense over an entire game in totality. Getting more shots than the other team is certainly an offensive "skill" of teams.

I'm sympathetic to the idea that offensive rebounds should be a new possession. It separates out even better "possession creation" that otherwise is limited to steals and/or forced turnovers.

But really either way its all about how you organize the data, creating more shots for your team is a great way to get wins.

This is basically right.  It depends what you're measuring.

If you're determining which team is most likely to make a shot, then FG% is the stat you'd look at.

If you're trying to get a flavor for how effective an offense is, though, offensive efficiency is the way to go.  To determine that effectiveness, you look at trips down the floor, rather than separating out offensive rebounds.

Example:  Which offense is better?  (Assume no threes or FTs for the moment):

Team A:  50% FG%, grabs offensive rebounds 10% of the time

Team B:  45% FG%, grabs offensive rebounds 35% of the time

With team A, on 100 trips down the floor they'll score 105 points.

With team B, on 100 trips down the floor, they'll score a bit over 107 points.

For a given possession, then, you might prefer Team A, whereas over the course of a team, it might be Team B.

No one stat is ever going to tell the whole story, but Offensive Efficiency probably comes closest.  The best method, though, is probably to look at the "four factors" as identified by basketball-reference:

eFG%: Celtics 11th
TOV%: Celtics 15th
ORB%: Celtics 30th
FT/FGA: Celtics 14th

That paints the picture of a mediocre offense that turns the ball over too much and doesn't get a lot of second chance points.  That's not a recipe for success.
Title: Re: Doc will get fired soon
Post by: Roy H. on January 03, 2013, 01:31:22 PM
Why should be a team who takes two shots and misses one (1 PPP) considered worse offensively than a team that sandwiches an offensive rebound between the two misses (2 PPP)? It just doesn't make much sense.

Sure it does, if the second team does that consistently.

Offense is a measure of putting the ball in the hoop.  If a team does that consistently by dominating rebounds on offense, that's a measure of good offense.
Title: Re: Doc will get fired soon
Post by: Moranis on January 03, 2013, 01:36:43 PM
Why should be a team who takes two shots and misses one (1 PPP) considered worse offensively than a team that sandwiches an offensive rebound between the two misses (2 PPP)? It just doesn't make much sense.

Sure it does, if the second team does that consistently.

Offense is a measure of putting the ball in the hoop.  If a team does that consistently by dominating rebounds on offense, that's a measure of good offense.
exactly, and the difference between those two is obvious i.e. the other team doesn't have a chance to score in between the shots.  The more you have the ball the less your opponent has it.  That is how you win games, limit your opponents scoring opportunities as much as possible, while maximizing your own.
Title: Re: Doc will get fired soon
Post by: nickagneta on January 03, 2013, 01:56:10 PM
Why should be a team who takes two shots and misses one (1 PPP) considered worse offensively than a team that sandwiches an offensive rebound between the two misses (2 PPP)? It just doesn't make much sense.

Sure it does, if the second team does that consistently.

Offense is a measure of putting the ball in the hoop.  If a team does that consistently by dominating rebounds on offense, that's a measure of good offense.
Another measure is getting to the free throw line and hitting your three pointers at a high rate.

Miami has been one of the more efficient offenses in the league when using offensive efficiency as a measuring tool but like Boston has been one of the worse offensive rebounding teams in the league as well.

The difference is Miami goes to the basket a lot, draws a lot of free throws, makes  a lot of their free throws and hits a high percentage of three point shots.

Boston has a highly efficient offense if you consider points per shot taken. You don't necessarily have to rebound the ball well on the offensive side to be an efficient offense, not that I am say anyone is making that claim. But you do need to keep the turnovers down and hit your shots and get your share of FTs.

The continuing reliance on outside jump shooting is starting to kill this team.
Title: Re: Doc will get fired soon
Post by: Edgar on January 03, 2013, 02:00:09 PM
Why should be a team who takes two shots and misses one (1 PPP) considered worse offensively than a team that sandwiches an offensive rebound between the two misses (2 PPP)? It just doesn't make much sense.

Sure it does, if the second team does that consistently.

Offense is a measure of putting the ball in the hoop.  If a team does that consistently by dominating rebounds on offense, that's a measure of good offense.
Another measure is getting to the free throw line and hitting your three pointers at a high rate.

Miami has been one of the more efficient offenses in the league when using offensive efficiency as a measuring tool but like Boston has been one of the worse offensive rebounding teams in the league as well.

The difference is Miami goes to the basket a lot, draws a lot of free throws, makes  a lot of their free throws and hits a high percentage of three point shots.

Boston has a highly efficient offense if you consider points per shot taken. You don't necessarily have to rebound the ball well on the offensive side to be an efficient offense, not that I am say anyone is making that claim. But you do need to keep the turnovers down and hit your shots and get your share of FTs.

The continuing reliance on outside jump shooting is starting to kill this team.

yup
long 2s are slow self infringed dead

The other point is how bad ( and i am not looking at %) but fts in clutch time or during runs, theyre failing.
Title: Re: Doc will get fired soon
Post by: kozlodoev on January 03, 2013, 02:16:45 PM
Why should be a team who takes two shots and misses one (1 PPP) considered worse offensively than a team that sandwiches an offensive rebound between the two misses (2 PPP)? It just doesn't make much sense.

Sure it does, if the second team does that consistently.

Offense is a measure of putting the ball in the hoop.  If a team does that consistently by dominating rebounds on offense, that's a measure of good offense.
That's the point, both teams have put the ball in the hoop exactly the same number of  times, taking roughly the same time off the clock in total (if we assume similar time to taking a shot off). Except the second team boasts PPP that's twice as large.
Title: Re: Doc will get fired soon
Post by: Roy H. on January 03, 2013, 02:24:39 PM
Why should be a team who takes two shots and misses one (1 PPP) considered worse offensively than a team that sandwiches an offensive rebound between the two misses (2 PPP)? It just doesn't make much sense.

Sure it does, if the second team does that consistently.

Offense is a measure of putting the ball in the hoop.  If a team does that consistently by dominating rebounds on offense, that's a measure of good offense.
That's the point, both teams have put the ball in the hoop exactly the same numbeer of  times, taking roughly the same time off the clock in total (if we assume similar time to taking a shot off). Except the second team boasts PPP that's twice as large.

Is this the scenario?

A:  Celtics have ball.  Miss shot.  Lakers get ball.  (Outcome unknown).  Celtics get ball, make shot.  Lakers get ball.

B:  Celtics have ball.  Miss shot.  Offensive rebound.  Make shot.  Lakers get ball.

Sure, in each case there's a miss and a make.  However, in the second scenario, the Celtics offense prevents a possession for the Lakers.  Ball control -- whether through preventing turnovers or grabbing offensive boards -- is a sign of a good offense.
Title: Re: Doc will get fired soon
Post by: BudweiserCeltic on January 03, 2013, 02:28:35 PM
Why should be a team who takes two shots and misses one (1 PPP) considered worse offensively than a team that sandwiches an offensive rebound between the two misses (2 PPP)? It just doesn't make much sense.

Sure it does, if the second team does that consistently.

Offense is a measure of putting the ball in the hoop.  If a team does that consistently by dominating rebounds on offense, that's a measure of good offense.
That's the point, both teams have put the ball in the hoop exactly the same number of  times, taking roughly the same time off the clock in total (if we assume similar time to taking a shot off). Except the second team boasts PPP that's twice as large.

There's something missing here. Team one missed one shot. Team two missed two shots. I take it that was a typo.

So both teams missed one shot, only one team has 1 PPP and the other 2 PPP because of the offensive rebound.

What is missing here is, what happened when the first team missed his shot? Did the second team score or miss? Let's say they scored for the sake of argument.

Team two then scored 4 points to the first team's 2, taking 3 shots in 2 possessions, so the 2 PPP remains true. If they missed, then it would be the same as the first team 1 PPP, only they would have shot 1/3 from the field.

So in all there's a possession here missing you're not accounting for.
Title: Re: Doc will get fired soon
Post by: kozlodoev on January 03, 2013, 02:33:49 PM
Why should be a team who takes two shots and misses one (1 PPP) considered worse offensively than a team that sandwiches an offensive rebound between the two misses (2 PPP)? It just doesn't make much sense.

Sure it does, if the second team does that consistently.

Offense is a measure of putting the ball in the hoop.  If a team does that consistently by dominating rebounds on offense, that's a measure of good offense.
That's the point, both teams have put the ball in the hoop exactly the same numbeer of  times, taking roughly the same time off the clock in total (if we assume similar time to taking a shot off). Except the second team boasts PPP that's twice as large.

Is this the scenario?

A:  Celtics have ball.  Miss shot.  Lakers get ball.  (Outcome unknown).  Celtics get ball, make shot.  Lakers get ball.

B:  Celtics have ball.  Miss shot.  Offensive rebound.  Make shot.  Lakers get ball.

Sure, in each case there's a miss and a make.  However, in the second scenario, the Celtics offense prevents a possession for the Lakers.  Ball control -- whether through preventing turnovers or grabbing offensive boards -- is a sign of a good offense.
I guess I just consider generating extra opportunities distinctly different measure from the actual ability to get a bucket in a given opportunity.
Title: Re: Doc will get fired soon
Post by: kozlodoev on January 03, 2013, 02:36:25 PM
Why should be a team who takes two shots and misses one (1 PPP) considered worse offensively than a team that sandwiches an offensive rebound between the two misses (2 PPP)? It just doesn't make much sense.

Sure it does, if the second team does that consistently.

Offense is a measure of putting the ball in the hoop.  If a team does that consistently by dominating rebounds on offense, that's a measure of good offense.
That's the point, both teams have put the ball in the hoop exactly the same number of  times, taking roughly the same time off the clock in total (if we assume similar time to taking a shot off). Except the second team boasts PPP that's twice as large.

There's something missing here. Team one missed one shot. Team two missed two shots. I take it that was a typo.

So both teams missed one shot, only one team has 1 PPP and the other 2 PPP because of the offensive rebound.

What is missing here is, what happened when the first team missed his shot? Did the second team score or miss? Let's say they scored for the sake of argument.

Team two then scored 4 points to the first team's 2, taking 3 shots in 2 possessions, so the 2 PPP remains true. If they missed, then it would be the same as the first team 1 PPP, only they would have shot 1/3 from the field.

So in all there's a possession here missing you're not accounting for.
Roy explained the situation in his post. Sorry if it was unclear.

In essence, both teams score one basket on two shots, except the PPP is different, because one of them didn't get an offensive rebound.
Title: Re: Doc will get fired soon
Post by: BudweiserCeltic on January 03, 2013, 02:38:26 PM
Why should be a team who takes two shots and misses one (1 PPP) considered worse offensively than a team that sandwiches an offensive rebound between the two misses (2 PPP)? It just doesn't make much sense.

Sure it does, if the second team does that consistently.

Offense is a measure of putting the ball in the hoop.  If a team does that consistently by dominating rebounds on offense, that's a measure of good offense.
That's the point, both teams have put the ball in the hoop exactly the same number of  times, taking roughly the same time off the clock in total (if we assume similar time to taking a shot off). Except the second team boasts PPP that's twice as large.

There's something missing here. Team one missed one shot. Team two missed two shots. I take it that was a typo.

So both teams missed one shot, only one team has 1 PPP and the other 2 PPP because of the offensive rebound.

What is missing here is, what happened when the first team missed his shot? Did the second team score or miss? Let's say they scored for the sake of argument.

Team two then scored 4 points to the first team's 2, taking 3 shots in 2 possessions, so the 2 PPP remains true. If they missed, then it would be the same as the first team 1 PPP, only they would have shot 1/3 from the field.

So in all there's a possession here missing you're not accounting for.
Roy explained the situation in his post. Sorry if it was unclear.

In essence, both teams score one basket on two shots, except the PPP is different, because one of them didn't get an offensive rebound.

Let's say they're playing against each other. You still have a possession unaccounted for. The first team missed after all after scoring in a secondary possession.

You only provided the second team with one possession when they should've had two just the same.
Title: Re: Doc will get fired soon
Post by: kozlodoev on January 03, 2013, 02:42:01 PM
Let's say they're playing against each other. You still have a possession unaccounted for. The first team missed after all after scoring in a secondary possession.

You only provided the second team with one possession when they should've had two just the same.
To quote Roy:

A:  Celtics have ball.  Miss shot.  Lakers get ball.  (Outcome unknown).  Celtics get ball, make shot.  Lakers get ball.

B:  Celtics have ball.  Miss shot.  Offensive rebound.  Make shot.  Lakers get ball

In this particular case, we're trying to capture the offensive efficiency of the Celtics. Laker possessions should be all but irrelevant.
Title: Re: Doc will get fired soon
Post by: BudweiserCeltic on January 03, 2013, 02:55:16 PM
Let's say they're playing against each other. You still have a possession unaccounted for. The first team missed after all after scoring in a secondary possession.

You only provided the second team with one possession when they should've had two just the same.
To quote Roy:

A:  Celtics have ball.  Miss shot.  Lakers get ball.  (Outcome unknown).  Celtics get ball, make shot.  Lakers get ball.

B:  Celtics have ball.  Miss shot.  Offensive rebound.  Make shot.  Lakers get ball

In this particular case, we're trying to capture the offensive efficiency of the Celtics. Laker possessions should be all but irrelevant.


I don't see how you can not find it relevant. And I don't think those are good examples because we're not comparing the same amount of possessions.

Example C.

Lakers miss shot. Celtics get ball and score. Lakers make shot. Celtics miss shot, offensive rebound, and score.

I combined the two scenarios above into one possibility of in-game situation/

In example C, Celtics when 2/3 for 4 points in two possessions, 2 PPP


Example D.

Lakers miss shot. Celtics get ball and miss. Lakers make shot. Celtics miss shot, offensive rebound, and score.

In example D, Celtics went 1/3 for 2 points in two possessions, 1 PPP (basically the same as scenario A, but with an additional miss).


I hope this illustrates the importance of including the possession that is missing from the scenarios that have been presented to this point.
Title: Re: Doc will get fired soon
Post by: Fafnir on January 03, 2013, 03:02:23 PM
Let's say they're playing against each other. You still have a possession unaccounted for. The first team missed after all after scoring in a secondary possession.

You only provided the second team with one possession when they should've had two just the same.
To quote Roy:

A:  Celtics have ball.  Miss shot.  Lakers get ball.  (Outcome unknown).  Celtics get ball, make shot.  Lakers get ball.

B:  Celtics have ball.  Miss shot.  Offensive rebound.  Make shot.  Lakers get ball

In this particular case, we're trying to capture the offensive efficiency of the Celtics. Laker possessions should be all but irrelevant.


I don't see how you can not find it relevant. And I don't think those are good examples because we're not comparing the same amount of possessions.

Example C.

Lakers miss shot. Celtics get ball and score. Lakers make shot. Celtics miss shot, offensive rebound, and score.

I combined the two scenarios above into one possibility of in-game situation/

In example C, Celtics when 2/3 for 4 points in two possessions, 2 PPP


Example D.

Lakers miss shot. Celtics get ball and miss. Lakers make shot. Celtics miss shot, offensive rebound, and score.

In example D, Celtics went 1/3 for 2 points in two possessions, 1 PPP (basically the same as scenario A, but with an additional miss).


I hope this illustrates the importance of including the possession that is missing from the scenarios that have been presented to this point.
Unless you have a typo in your examples, you're missing the debate entirely.
Title: Re: Doc will get fired soon
Post by: kozlodoev on January 03, 2013, 03:11:33 PM
Let me reiterate again:

The debate here is not what gives you a better overall result. Of course getting more opportunities to score does, and in this sense offensive rebounds are good. But so are regular rebounds and steals.

The discussion is about metrics that accurately reflect how efficienttly you put the ball in the basket, all else equal.
Title: Re: Doc will get fired soon
Post by: Fafnir on January 03, 2013, 03:19:47 PM
Let me reiterate again:

The debate here is not what gives you a better overall result. Of course getting more opportunities to score does, and in this sense offensive rebounds are good. But so are regular rebounds and steals.

The discussion is about metrics that accurately reflect how efficienttly you put the ball in the basket, all else equal.
Yeah, I think of the Joe Johnson led Atlanta Hawks, the Chicago Bulls, and Brandon Roy Trailblazers as teams when this issue comes up.

All are/were limited offensive teams that lean heavily offensive boards to make up for their overall lacklust offensive/talent/play.

Over the course of the season it probably doesn't matter too much but if you're trying to use the predictions for a given matchup its something you really have to look at.
Title: Re: Doc will get fired soon
Post by: BudweiserCeltic on January 03, 2013, 03:20:00 PM
Let me reiterate again:

The debate here is not what gives you a better overall result. Of course getting more opportunities to score does, and in this sense offensive rebounds are good. But so are regular rebounds and steals.

The discussion is about metrics that accurately reflect how efficienttly you put the ball in the basket, all else equal.

It's the all else equal part that I'm finding lacking. In one example the Celtics had 2 possessions. In the second example they had 1 possession.

And as I illustrated above, grabbing an offensive rebound doesn't necessarily lead to better results. In fact, it might lead to a lower FG% if the subsequent shot was missed. But in maintaining the equality of the possessions, it would be reflected just the same as in the scenario A mentioned above, only with a lower FG%, yet with the same PPP.

Make with that what you will. One team having the same PPP as another team, doesn't mean that they're as efficient with their shots, but it does reflect their ability to score the ball given a possession.
Title: Re: Doc will get fired soon
Post by: SHAQATTACK on January 03, 2013, 03:21:33 PM
Doc is plenty good of a coach for the Celtics .  He is whole lot better than Eric Spolstra  of the Heat .  I doubt Spo could do any better on the C's and he coached the HEAT to a world championship... or did he not ?

I still think there is serious lack of talent to complete witht HEAT, SPURS, ect  .  Give Doc the right players and he will win for Boston. !!!

Old tired players and  average role players aren't going no where.



   

Title: Re: Doc will get fired soon
Post by: kozlodoev on January 03, 2013, 03:27:21 PM
Let me reiterate again:

The debate here is not what gives you a better overall result. Of course getting more opportunities to score does, and in this sense offensive rebounds are good. But so are regular rebounds and steals.

The discussion is about metrics that accurately reflect how efficienttly you put the ball in the basket, all else equal.

It's the all else equal part that I'm finding lacking. In one example the Celtics had 2 possessions. In the second example they had 1 possession.

And as I illustrated above, grabbing an offensive rebound doesn't necessarily lead to better results. In fact, it might lead to a lower FG% if the subsequent shot was missed. But in maintaining the equality of the possessions, it would be reflected just the same as in the scenario A mentioned above, only with a lower FG%, yet with the same PPP.

Make with that what you will. One team having the same PPP as another team, doesn't mean that they're as efficient with their shots, but it does reflect their ability to score the ball given the possession.
The point is, in both cases the Celtics have had two shot clocks, and have taken two shots -- and the 1 possession vs 2 possession is a bizzare artifact of the idea that getting an offensive rebound somehow counts for "extending" the possession rather than generating a new one.

Again, this discussion started with the definition of possession, which I find inadequate for the purposes of measuring offensive firepower.

I'm sure there's an argument to be made that PPP indicates how many points you'll expect to get, on average, after the ball changes hands from one team to the other. I don't find this indicative of how good or efficient offense you're running.
Title: Re: Doc will get fired soon
Post by: dark_lord on January 03, 2013, 03:51:22 PM
If this this historic losing streak continues, Doc will by gone by January 20th!!!

He is an average coach at best, and he apparently has LOST this team.

This is sad.  The effort is pitiful.  The commitment to small ball by Doc is simply astonishing. 

We might be playing the WORST basketball in the NBA.

Smitty77

the only way this would happen is if ainge were to get fired first.  neither are happening imo
Title: Re: Doc will get fired soon
Post by: triboy16f on January 03, 2013, 04:01:51 PM
If the loses keep piling up and Danny will still not fire Rivers than ownership won't have a choice but to can both Ainge and Rivers. Ainge is playing a dangerous game of not doing what is best for the org vs keeping his personal loyalty in tact.

Title: Re: Doc will get fired soon
Post by: kozlodoev on January 03, 2013, 04:23:52 PM
If the loses keep piling up and Danny will still not fire Rivers than ownership won't have a choice but to can both Ainge and Rivers. Ainge is playing a dangerous game of not doing what is best for the org vs keeping his personal loyalty in tact.
Right, except firing Doc Rivers is not what's "best for the organization". Whoops!
Title: Re: Doc will get fired soon
Post by: Smitty77 on January 03, 2013, 04:41:23 PM
Our three games lost in California were by the WORST margin in like 34 years.  So yes, HISTORIC would be a very accurate adjective.

Smitty77
Title: Re: Doc will get fired soon
Post by: MBunge on January 03, 2013, 04:47:42 PM
If the loses keep piling up and Danny will still not fire Rivers than ownership won't have a choice but to can both Ainge and Rivers. Ainge is playing a dangerous game of not doing what is best for the org vs keeping his personal loyalty in tact.
Right, except firing Doc Rivers is not what's "best for the organization". Whoops!

Boy, I wonder what the Celtics will do when Doc "Coach for life" Rivers retires in 30 years and they have to get someone to replace him.  What pitiful mortal could ever hope to follow the Alpha and Omega of all coaching glory?  Maybe by then they'll have perfected human cloning so there shall never be anyone except a "Doc" coaching Boston's intrepid team!

Our Doc, who art in Boston,
Hallowed be Thy name.
Thy contract be ever extended,
Thy decisions never be questioned,
on Earth as it is in Heaven.
Give us this day another day of not playing Darko.
Forgive us for wondering why you're running Jason Terry off baseline screens.
Lead us not into the temptation of wanting a team that doesn't suck,
But deliver us from the evil of doubting Thine Eternal Perfection,
For Thine is the kingdom,
The power, and the glory.
For ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever.

Amen.

Mike
Title: Re: Doc will get fired soon
Post by: CelticsFan9 on January 03, 2013, 04:50:52 PM
If the loses keep piling up and Danny will still not fire Rivers than ownership won't have a choice but to can both Ainge and Rivers. Ainge is playing a dangerous game of not doing what is best for the org vs keeping his personal loyalty in tact.
Right, except firing Doc Rivers is not what's "best for the organization". Whoops!

Boy, I wonder what the Celtics will do when Doc "Coach for life" Rivers retires in 30 years and they have to get someone to replace him.  What pitiful mortal could ever hope to follow the Alpha and Omega of all coaching glory?  Maybe by then they'll have perfected human cloning so there shall never be anyone except a "Doc" coaching Boston's intrepid team!

Our Doc, who art in Boston,
Hallowed be Thy name.
Thy contract be ever extended,
Thy decisions never be questioned,
on Earth as it is in Heaven.
Give us this day another day of not playing Darko.
Forgive us for wondering why you're running Jason Terry off baseline screens.
Lead us not into the temptation of wanting a team that doesn't suck,
But deliver us from the evil of doubting Thine Eternal Perfection,
For Thine is the kingdom,
The power, and the glory.
For ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever.

Amen.

Mike

Give this guy some TPs for one of the funniest things I've ever read on this forum.
Title: Re: Doc will get fired soon
Post by: GreenFaith1819 on January 03, 2013, 05:27:10 PM
(http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQHWN4tYWYXzWftB3aOZrBOgSEeJs2Ab2KL_MdS44pZcdMO-dkk)

Wow...
Title: Re: Doc will get fired soon
Post by: kozlodoev on January 03, 2013, 06:43:42 PM
If the loses keep piling up and Danny will still not fire Rivers than ownership won't have a choice but to can both Ainge and Rivers. Ainge is playing a dangerous game of not doing what is best for the org vs keeping his personal loyalty in tact.
Right, except firing Doc Rivers is not what's "best for the organization". Whoops!

Boy, I wonder what the Celtics will do when Doc "Coach for life" Rivers retires in 30 years and they have to get someone to replace him.  What pitiful mortal could ever hope to follow the Alpha and Omega of all coaching glory?  Maybe by then they'll have perfected human cloning so there shall never be anyone except a "Doc" coaching Boston's intrepid team!

Our Doc, who art in Boston,
Hallowed be Thy name.
Thy contract be ever extended,
Thy decisions never be questioned,
on Earth as it is in Heaven.
Give us this day another day of not playing Darko.
Forgive us for wondering why you're running Jason Terry off baseline screens.
Lead us not into the temptation of wanting a team that doesn't suck,
But deliver us from the evil of doubting Thine Eternal Perfection,
For Thine is the kingdom,
The power, and the glory.
For ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever.

Amen.

Mike
Very convincing. Has this ever worked when you've run out of reasonable arguments?
Title: Re: Doc will get fired soon
Post by: blink on January 03, 2013, 07:16:44 PM
If the loses keep piling up and Danny will still not fire Rivers than ownership won't have a choice but to can both Ainge and Rivers. Ainge is playing a dangerous game of not doing what is best for the org vs keeping his personal loyalty in tact.
Right, except firing Doc Rivers is not what's "best for the organization". Whoops!

Boy, I wonder what the Celtics will do when Doc "Coach for life" Rivers retires in 30 years and they have to get someone to replace him.  What pitiful mortal could ever hope to follow the Alpha and Omega of all coaching glory?  Maybe by then they'll have perfected human cloning so there shall never be anyone except a "Doc" coaching Boston's intrepid team!

Our Doc, who art in Boston,
Hallowed be Thy name.
Thy contract be ever extended,
Thy decisions never be questioned,
on Earth as it is in Heaven.
Give us this day another day of not playing Darko.
Forgive us for wondering why you're running Jason Terry off baseline screens.
Lead us not into the temptation of wanting a team that doesn't suck,
But deliver us from the evil of doubting Thine Eternal Perfection,
For Thine is the kingdom,
The power, and the glory.
For ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever.

Amen.

Mike

This is just offensive in so many ways.  Great 'logic' with your thoughts on Doc.  Congrats.  Seems like the forum is turning into the espn comments section where no one has to make a reasonable point.  They just belch out whatever comes to their mind without thinking it through.

Doc is 375-265 for a 59% win % in the years leading up to this season.  We have been in the eastern conf finals 2 out of the last 3 years.  I guess winning so much really spoils some people.
Title: Re: Doc will get fired soon
Post by: fantankerous on January 03, 2013, 07:31:18 PM
If the loses keep piling up and Danny will still not fire Rivers than ownership won't have a choice but to can both Ainge and Rivers. Ainge is playing a dangerous game of not doing what is best for the org vs keeping his personal loyalty in tact.
Right, except firing Doc Rivers is not what's "best for the organization". Whoops!

Boy, I wonder what the Celtics will do when Doc "Coach for life" Rivers retires in 30 years and they have to get someone to replace him.  What pitiful mortal could ever hope to follow the Alpha and Omega of all coaching glory?  Maybe by then they'll have perfected human cloning so there shall never be anyone except a "Doc" coaching Boston's intrepid team!

Our Doc, who art in Boston,
Hallowed be Thy name.
Thy contract be ever extended,
Thy decisions never be questioned,
on Earth as it is in Heaven.
Give us this day another day of not playing Darko.
Forgive us for wondering why you're running Jason Terry off baseline screens.
Lead us not into the temptation of wanting a team that doesn't suck,
But deliver us from the evil of doubting Thine Eternal Perfection,
For Thine is the kingdom,
The power, and the glory.
For ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever.

Amen.

Mike

incredibly lame.
Title: Re: Doc will get fired soon
Post by: hpantazo on January 03, 2013, 07:34:46 PM
Doc is not getting fired while KG and Pierce are still here. KG, Pierce, and Rondo are all on record saying they want to play only for Doc the rest of their careers. If Doc is fired, KG and Pierce will retire, and Rondo will ask for a trade.
Title: Re: Doc will get fired soon
Post by: Donoghus on January 03, 2013, 08:42:43 PM
Doc's not getting fired anytime soon. 

It would take a total mutiny/tune-out for  it to happen or seasons of losing. Not a couple of months.
Title: Re: Doc will get fired soon
Post by: bfrombleacher on January 03, 2013, 08:50:13 PM
Doc is not getting fired while KG and Pierce are still here. KG, Pierce, and Rondo are all on record saying they want to play only for Doc the rest of their careers. If Doc is fired, KG and Pierce will retire, and Rondo will ask for a trade.

Rondo said that?

May I have a link? Not questioning legitimacy just curious.
Title: Re: Doc will get fired soon
Post by: vinnie on January 03, 2013, 08:55:46 PM
Doc is not getting fired while KG and Pierce are still here. KG, Pierce, and Rondo are all on record saying they want to play only for Doc the rest of their careers. If Doc is fired, KG and Pierce will retire, and Rondo will ask for a trade.

I miss the old days when players played and coaches coached and players did not dictate who would coach the team. So tired of the I am going to take my ball and go home if I don't get my way attitude that pervades all sports. I don't believe Doc should be fired, but I hate this crap about what the players will do if he was to be fired.
Title: Re: Doc will get fired soon
Post by: Fafnir on January 03, 2013, 09:19:37 PM
If the loses keep piling up and Danny will still not fire Rivers than ownership won't have a choice but to can both Ainge and Rivers. Ainge is playing a dangerous game of not doing what is best for the org vs keeping his personal loyalty in tact.
What exactly would a new coach change? Doc is trying a lot of different things, I don't like how he's used Terry but that's not why we're struggling certainly.
Title: Re: Doc will get fired soon
Post by: Fafnir on January 03, 2013, 09:22:11 PM
Doc is not getting fired while KG and Pierce are still here. KG, Pierce, and Rondo are all on record saying they want to play only for Doc the rest of their careers. If Doc is fired, KG and Pierce will retire, and Rondo will ask for a trade.

I miss the old days when players played and coaches coached and players did not dictate who would coach the team. So tired of the I am going to take my ball and go home if I don't get my way attitude that pervades all sports. I don't believe Doc should be fired, but I hate this crap about what the players will do if he was to be fired.
But how to maximize your current roster is the job of the coach, if they'd react poorly to his firing that is a consideration.

In this case if Doc goes its almost certainly a signal that we're going into a full rebuild with a new coach. In that case the only player that really matters is Rondo.
Title: Re: Doc will get fired soon
Post by: indeedproceed on January 03, 2013, 09:23:51 PM
Doc is not getting fired while KG and Pierce are still here. KG, Pierce, and Rondo are all on record saying they want to play only for Doc the rest of their careers. If Doc is fired, KG and Pierce will retire, and Rondo will ask for a trade.

I miss the old days when players played and coaches coached and players did not dictate who would coach the team. So tired of the I am going to take my ball and go home if I don't get my way attitude that pervades all sports. I don't believe Doc should be fired, but I hate this crap about what the players will do if he was to be fired.

My initial response was way more snarky, because this issue also annoys me, but in the reverse. I see no reason why players shouldnt have a huge say in where they play, who they play with, and who coaches them. They aren't children, and they're not incapable of making choices that are not only good for them, but also good for the organization.

Take for instance, guys who will without question outperform their contracts. Guys like Chris Paul, Kevin Durant, LeBron James. Under the current CBA, they unquestionably bring more money to the team, to the area than they actually get paid. Why shouldn't they have say in who is calling the shots?

Sometimes it goes poorly. Jerry Sloan comes immediately to mind, so does Rick Adelman. But not all coaches who get fired because of players are unjustly ousted. Coaches can lose a lockerroom, no matter how good they are. Stan Van Gundy comes to mind, so does Flip Saunders, Don Nelson, Avery Johnson (Dallas version) and Vinnie Del Negro. If a coach can't command the respect of his lockerroom without the aid of a contractually binding agreement between player and team, why should he keep his job?

And if a coach has the support of his team, and if guys agreed to stay on because they liked the coach, why shouldn't the players feel betrayed if the coach is thrown under the bus?
Title: Re: Doc will get fired soon
Post by: Who on January 03, 2013, 09:42:43 PM
Doc is not getting fired while KG and Pierce are still here. KG, Pierce, and Rondo are all on record saying they want to play only for Doc the rest of their careers. If Doc is fired, KG and Pierce will retire, and Rondo will ask for a trade.

I think Garnett would be a risk to retire if the decision was made in the off-season. If the change was made in-season though, I think with 40-50 games to get used to his new coach, Garnett could be convinced that things are still in a very good place and that he should stick around. I would worry about KG retiring if a decision was in the off-season. It feels like he has been pretty close to retiring at the end of the season for a few years now. A coaching change could push him over the edge.

I don't think Pierce would retire because of Doc. Pierce strikes me as too pragmatic for that. He will move on to the next coach and life will still be good for him.

I don't think Rondo asks to be traded because of Doc. I can't think of the word to describe ... ermm, Rondo doesn't strike me as the type of man who would allow his own life / career to be so closely tied to another individual. Too self-reliant, self-sufficient.
Title: Re: Doc will get fired soon
Post by: Boston Garden Leprechaun on January 03, 2013, 09:59:50 PM
If the loses keep piling up and Danny will still not fire Rivers than ownership won't have a choice but to can both Ainge and Rivers. Ainge is playing a dangerous game of not doing what is best for the org vs keeping his personal loyalty in tact.
Right, except firing Doc Rivers is not what's "best for the organization". Whoops!

Boy, I wonder what the Celtics will do when Doc "Coach for life" Rivers retires in 30 years and they have to get someone to replace him.  What pitiful mortal could ever hope to follow the Alpha and Omega of all coaching glory?  Maybe by then they'll have perfected human cloning so there shall never be anyone except a "Doc" coaching Boston's intrepid team!

Our Doc, who art in Boston,
Hallowed be Thy name.
Thy contract be ever extended,
Thy decisions never be questioned,
on Earth as it is in Heaven.
Give us this day another day of not playing Darko.
Forgive us for wondering why you're running Jason Terry off baseline screens.
Lead us not into the temptation of wanting a team that doesn't suck,
But deliver us from the evil of doubting Thine Eternal Perfection,
For Thine is the kingdom,
The power, and the glory.
For ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever.

Amen.

Mike

CAN'T. STOP. LAUGHING!   ;D
Title: Re: Doc will get fired soon
Post by: BudweiserCeltic on January 03, 2013, 10:03:01 PM
Let me reiterate again:

The debate here is not what gives you a better overall result. Of course getting more opportunities to score does, and in this sense offensive rebounds are good. But so are regular rebounds and steals.

The discussion is about metrics that accurately reflect how efficienttly you put the ball in the basket, all else equal.

It's the all else equal part that I'm finding lacking. In one example the Celtics had 2 possessions. In the second example they had 1 possession.

And as I illustrated above, grabbing an offensive rebound doesn't necessarily lead to better results. In fact, it might lead to a lower FG% if the subsequent shot was missed. But in maintaining the equality of the possessions, it would be reflected just the same as in the scenario A mentioned above, only with a lower FG%, yet with the same PPP.

Make with that what you will. One team having the same PPP as another team, doesn't mean that they're as efficient with their shots, but it does reflect their ability to score the ball given the possession.
The point is, in both cases the Celtics have had two shot clocks, and have taken two shots -- and the 1 possession vs 2 possession is a bizzare artifact of the idea that getting an offensive rebound somehow counts for "extending" the possession rather than generating a new one.

Again, this discussion started with the definition of possession, which I find inadequate for the purposes of measuring offensive firepower.

I'm sure there's an argument to be made that PPP indicates how many points you'll expect to get, on average, after the ball changes hands from one team to the other. I don't find this indicative of how good or efficient offense you're running.

I don't know why you're going to this length to make your point, since your point is very valid without going into what constitutes a possession or not. Also, you're doing an inaccurate assumption. A missed shot, and a subsequent offensive rebound doesn't necessarily generate a new shot clock.

Also, why limit the end of a possession when one shoots the ball? By your definition, would a possession only end if the missed shot hit the rim? Does that distinction actually matter?
Title: Re: Doc will get fired soon
Post by: Boston Garden Leprechaun on January 03, 2013, 10:03:31 PM
If the loses keep piling up and Danny will still not fire Rivers than ownership won't have a choice but to can both Ainge and Rivers. Ainge is playing a dangerous game of not doing what is best for the org vs keeping his personal loyalty in tact.
Right, except firing Doc Rivers is not what's "best for the organization". Whoops!

Boy, I wonder what the Celtics will do when Doc "Coach for life" Rivers retires in 30 years and they have to get someone to replace him.  What pitiful mortal could ever hope to follow the Alpha and Omega of all coaching glory?  Maybe by then they'll have perfected human cloning so there shall never be anyone except a "Doc" coaching Boston's intrepid team!

Our Doc, who art in Boston,
Hallowed be Thy name.
Thy contract be ever extended,
Thy decisions never be questioned,
on Earth as it is in Heaven.
Give us this day another day of not playing Darko.
Forgive us for wondering why you're running Jason Terry off baseline screens.
Lead us not into the temptation of wanting a team that doesn't suck,
But deliver us from the evil of doubting Thine Eternal Perfection,
For Thine is the kingdom,
The power, and the glory.
For ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever.

Amen.

Mike

This is just offensive in so many ways.  Great 'logic' with your thoughts on Doc.  Congrats.  Seems like the forum is turning into the espn comments section where no one has to make a reasonable point.  They just belch out whatever comes to their mind without thinking it through.

Doc is 375-265 for a 59% win % in the years leading up to this season.  We have been in the eastern conf finals 2 out of the last 3 years.  I guess winning so much really spoils some people.

no, you are quite simply wrong. plenty here have laid out the problems with doc. I did it the other day. There were several bullet points i addressed....but plenty here just want to ignore it or tap dance around the issues with excuses.
Title: Re: Doc will get fired soon
Post by: MaxAMillion on January 03, 2013, 10:13:57 PM
If you fire Doc, you [dang] sure better fire Delusional Danny as well. The only thing that guy knows is that Charmin Green must be signed at all cost. The Knicks put a bench together for less than half of what Delusional paid for the C's bench and the Knicks bench is better. I hope both get replaced and I really don't care what the players think. The team isn't going anywhere now whether the players are happy or not.
Title: Re: Doc will get fired soon
Post by: SHAQATTACK on January 03, 2013, 10:37:00 PM
watching the Knicks and Spurs tonight, I just can't but see how outclassed this Celtic team is.....

TURRIBLE..... JUST TURRIBLE
Title: Re: Doc will get fired soon
Post by: syfy9 on January 03, 2013, 10:38:33 PM
Answer me this : Who would we hire in Doc's place?




End of story. We aren't firing Doc Rivers.
Title: Re: Doc will get fired soon
Post by: blink on January 03, 2013, 10:43:42 PM
If the loses keep piling up and Danny will still not fire Rivers than ownership won't have a choice but to can both Ainge and Rivers. Ainge is playing a dangerous game of not doing what is best for the org vs keeping his personal loyalty in tact.
Right, except firing Doc Rivers is not what's "best for the organization". Whoops!

Boy, I wonder what the Celtics will do when Doc "Coach for life" Rivers retires in 30 years and they have to get someone to replace him.  What pitiful mortal could ever hope to follow the Alpha and Omega of all coaching glory?  Maybe by then they'll have perfected human cloning so there shall never be anyone except a "Doc" coaching Boston's intrepid team!

Our Doc, who art in Boston,
Hallowed be Thy name.
Thy contract be ever extended,
Thy decisions never be questioned,
on Earth as it is in Heaven.
Give us this day another day of not playing Darko.
Forgive us for wondering why you're running Jason Terry off baseline screens.
Lead us not into the temptation of wanting a team that doesn't suck,
But deliver us from the evil of doubting Thine Eternal Perfection,
For Thine is the kingdom,
The power, and the glory.
For ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever.

Amen.

Mike

This is just offensive in so many ways.  Great 'logic' with your thoughts on Doc.  Congrats.  Seems like the forum is turning into the espn comments section where no one has to make a reasonable point.  They just belch out whatever comes to their mind without thinking it through.

Doc is 375-265 for a 59% win % in the years leading up to this season.  We have been in the eastern conf finals 2 out of the last 3 years.  I guess winning so much really spoils some people.

no, you are quite simply wrong. plenty here have laid out the problems with doc. I did it the other day. There were several bullet points i addressed....but plenty here just want to ignore it or tap dance around the issues with excuses.

I am so glad that you are hear to tell me what I should find offensive.  Awesome. 

My comment wasn't even addressed to you, it was to MBunge.  I responded to a bunch of your posts in other threads.  I think you are wrong.  So there. haha
Title: Re: Doc will get fired soon
Post by: Boston Garden Leprechaun on January 03, 2013, 10:49:44 PM
watching the Knicks and Spurs tonight, I just can't but see how outclassed this Celtic team is.....

TURRIBLE..... JUST TURRIBLE

doc will right the ship. no worries mate.

he will scream in the players faces and tell his 4 dribble drivers(rondo, green, barbosa, and pierce) to attack the rack. he will tell KG and sully he wants them posting up down low most of the time. he will use terry in a better more efficient way instead of forcing him to play TRAITOR's old role. He will bench guys who do not listen to him immediately.

best coach in da league. bar none.

 ::)
Title: Re: Doc will get fired soon
Post by: Moranis on January 04, 2013, 06:37:31 AM
Let me reiterate again:

The debate here is not what gives you a better overall result. Of course getting more opportunities to score does, and in this sense offensive rebounds are good. But so are regular rebounds and steals.

The discussion is about metrics that accurately reflect how efficienttly you put the ball in the basket, all else equal.

It's the all else equal part that I'm finding lacking. In one example the Celtics had 2 possessions. In the second example they had 1 possession.

And as I illustrated above, grabbing an offensive rebound doesn't necessarily lead to better results. In fact, it might lead to a lower FG% if the subsequent shot was missed. But in maintaining the equality of the possessions, it would be reflected just the same as in the scenario A mentioned above, only with a lower FG%, yet with the same PPP.

Make with that what you will. One team having the same PPP as another team, doesn't mean that they're as efficient with their shots, but it does reflect their ability to score the ball given the possession.
The point is, in both cases the Celtics have had two shot clocks, and have taken two shots -- and the 1 possession vs 2 possession is a bizzare artifact of the idea that getting an offensive rebound somehow counts for "extending" the possession rather than generating a new one.

Again, this discussion started with the definition of possession, which I find inadequate for the purposes of measuring offensive firepower.

I'm sure there's an argument to be made that PPP indicates how many points you'll expect to get, on average, after the ball changes hands from one team to the other. I don't find this indicative of how good or efficient offense you're running.
You can't get a new possession without possession actually changing hands.  Thus an offensive rebound merely extends a possession, it does not create a new one.  It is far better to miss ten shots and get ten offensive rebounds then it is to miss ten shots and get zero offensive rebounds.  In the first, the other team has no opportunity to score, in the second the other team has ten opportunities to score.  Sure your FG% would be the same in each instance, but your offensive efficiency is better in the first, since your offense keeps the other teams defense from doing anything. 
Title: Re: Doc will get fired soon
Post by: Edgar on January 04, 2013, 08:25:01 AM
Quote
You can't get a new possession without possession actually changing hands.  Thus an offensive rebound merely extends a possession, it does not create a new one.  It is far better to miss ten shots and get ten offensive rebounds then it is to miss ten shots and get zero offensive rebounds.  In the first, the other team has no opportunity to score, in the second the other team has ten opportunities to score.  Sure your FG% would be the same in each instance, but your offensive efficiency is better in the first, since your offense keeps the other teams defense from doing anything.
[/quote]

See, this is a fact.
Title: Re: Doc will get fired soon
Post by: SHAQATTACK on January 04, 2013, 08:52:18 AM
watching the Knicks and Spurs tonight, I just can't but see how outclassed this Celtic team is.....

TURRIBLE..... JUST TURRIBLE

doc will right the ship. no worries mate.

he will scream in the players faces and tell his 4 dribble drivers(rondo, green, barbosa, and pierce) to attack the rack. he will tell KG and sully he wants them posting up down low most of the time. he will use terry in a better more efficient way instead of forcing him to play TRAITOR's old role. He will bench guys who do not listen to him immediately.

best coach in da league. bar none.

 ::)


He is modern feel good coach.......it was funny , they were showing an OLD GREG POP interview.... they asked was he happy with the way his team was playing...he frowned even more (than usual) HAPPY!!!! I never happy even when we are playing good... I don't come here to BE HAPPY , we come here to WIN .  Happy is a discusting word, and I don't like the word. Its for losers  "  He was being funny, but he the under lying truth he is more demanding than not ...he'll get on their ---- if they aren't playing

Doc is TOO soft .  He is love hippy. peace and all that racket,lets shake hands before we play..... No way, LArry Bird and Parrish hated their opponents and played like it. ....You look your opponent in the eye , and tell them they'll be lucky to survive tonight , your kicking their tail.
Title: Re: Doc will get fired soon
Post by: Boston Garden Leprechaun on January 04, 2013, 09:59:13 AM
watching the Knicks and Spurs tonight, I just can't but see how outclassed this Celtic team is.....

TURRIBLE..... JUST TURRIBLE

doc will right the ship. no worries mate.

he will scream in the players faces and tell his 4 dribble drivers(rondo, green, barbosa, and pierce) to attack the rack. he will tell KG and sully he wants them posting up down low most of the time. he will use terry in a better more efficient way instead of forcing him to play TRAITOR's old role. He will bench guys who do not listen to him immediately.

best coach in da league. bar none.

 ::)


He is modern feel good coach.......it was funny , they were showing an OLD GREG POP interview.... they asked was he happy with the way his team was playing...he frowned even more (than usual) HAPPY!!!! I never happy even when we are playing good... I don't come here to BE HAPPY , we come here to WIN .  Happy is a discusting word, and I don't like the word. Its for losers  "  He was being funny, but he the under lying truth he is more demanding than not ...he'll get on their ---- if they aren't playing

Doc is TOO soft .  He is love hippy. peace and all that racket,lets shake hands before we play..... No way, LArry Bird and Parrish hated their opponents and played like it. ....You look your opponent in the eye , and tell them they'll be lucky to survive tonight , your kicking their tail.

All i see him doing now is acting like an assistant when players come off by giving them a big ole fistbump or pat on the ass. even his style of not attacking for offensive rebounds is not working because we cannot stop anyone even when we get set on defense. Red is probably rolling in his grave watching how clueless we look. sad.
Title: Re: Doc will get fired soon
Post by: MBunge on January 04, 2013, 10:23:06 AM
Answer me this : Who would we hire in Doc's place?




End of story. We aren't firing Doc Rivers.

One of the Van Gundy boys.  Stan went to the Finals with a team that had less talent than what Doc has had since KG and Ray showed up and is anybody going to argue that Jeff isn't a proven coach?  Even after all the success with Boston the last 6 years, JVG still has a better career winning percentage as a coach than Doc.

Danny Ainge.

Larry Brown, for one last run with this group.

Lawrence Frank.

Nate McMillan.

Avery Johnson.

Flip Saunders.

Jerry Sloan.

Terry Porter.

Now, Ainge wouldn't want to do it and there are, of course, things to pick apart with the rest of that list.  But without even looking hard at any promising young NBA assistants or the college ranks, there's 10 guys Boston could probably get to replace Doc if the team wanted to.

Would any of them do a better job than Doc?  Who knows?  But every one of those guys except Porter and Frank right now have better coaching resumes than Doc did before KG and Ray joined the Celtics.

And let me mention that just as I thought it was stupid for the Lakers to can Mike Brown and the Nets to fire Johnson, it would be ridiculous to fire Doc at this point.  But even more ridiculous is the idea that Doc is the ONE TRUE COACH and that there's no one else in the world that could replace "the precious".

Mike
Title: Re: Doc will get fired soon
Post by: Cman on January 04, 2013, 10:32:51 AM
I doubt it.
Danny and the owners aren't ones to make "panic" moves.
Title: Re: Doc will get fired soon
Post by: Donoghus on January 04, 2013, 10:58:33 AM
I doubt it.
Danny and the owners aren't ones to make "panic" moves.

Yup.  That's left to the boards here.
Title: Re: Doc will get fired soon
Post by: Chris on January 04, 2013, 11:06:29 AM
I doubt it.
Danny and the owners aren't ones to make "panic" moves.

That's the thing about this organization.  Unlike some other organizations (Nets for example), this organization's motto since Danny took over (well, after he made his first few moves anyways) has been patience.

I know he is kind of known as a trader, but in general he has been very patient, when looking at the big picture.  He has had tremendous patience with Doc, and it has paid off, he has had tremendous patience with players (Perk, Jefferson, Bradley, all increased significantly in value, as he waited it out with them) and it has paid off, and they have been patient with teams that have been left for dead, only to see them rise from the ashes.

At some point, the patience will end.  But, just 30 games (or whatever it is) from being 1 win away from the finals with a beat up team, is nowhere near enough time for them to make a decision.  They will let the season play out, and then decide what to do. 
Title: Re: Doc will get fired soon
Post by: kozlodoev on January 04, 2013, 11:23:35 AM
Answer me this : Who would we hire in Doc's place?




End of story. We aren't firing Doc Rivers.

One of the Van Gundy boys.  Stan went to the Finals with a team that had less talent than what Doc has had since KG and Ray showed up and is anybody going to argue that Jeff isn't a proven coach?  Even after all the success with Boston the last 6 years, JVG still has a better career winning percentage as a coach than Doc.

Danny Ainge.

Larry Brown, for one last run with this group.

Lawrence Frank.

Nate McMillan.

Avery Johnson.

Flip Saunders.

Jerry Sloan.

Terry Porter.

Now, Ainge wouldn't want to do it and there are, of course, things to pick apart with the rest of that list.  But without even looking hard at any promising young NBA assistants or the college ranks, there's 10 guys Boston could probably get to replace Doc if the team wanted to.

Would any of them do a better job than Doc?  Who knows?  But every one of those guys except Porter and Frank right now have better coaching resumes than Doc did before KG and Ray joined the Celtics.

And let me mention that just as I thought it was stupid for the Lakers to can Mike Brown and the Nets to fire Johnson, it would be ridiculous to fire Doc at this point.  But even more ridiculous is the idea that Doc is the ONE TRUE COACH and that there's no one else in the world that could replace "the precious".

Mike
Really? Everyone but Porter and Frank have won COTY? (it's a funny argument to make regardless, given that half of this list is abject failures that I don't want anywhere close to a team I'm rooting for).
Title: Re: Doc will get fired soon
Post by: TripleOT on January 04, 2013, 11:25:59 AM
At some point, the patience will end.  But, just 30 games (or whatever it is) from being 1 win away from the finals with a beat up team, is nowhere near enough time for them to make a decision.  They will let the season play out, and then decide what to do.

I agree they will be patient with Doc, but I'll be shocked if there aren't any trades after January 15th.  If the Cs falter and go something like 9-14 before the trade deadline, I could envision the brain trust going to Pierce and KG and gauging their willingness to play for a contender this year.

If this team can't make the playoffs, or are barely an 8th seed, I don't see them being a contender next year either. They'd get more value for Pierce and KG at the deadline from a team looking for that one last piece to get over the top than in the summer, where teams would be wondering if they'd get even two years from these players. 

I've never been in the Blow It Up camp, but if the Big 2 isn't getting the role player help around them to make this team a contender, either re-shuffle the role players through trades, or move KG/PP for young players and assets. Sitting back is not an option if the Cs are  23-31 at the trade deadline, with 16 of the remaining 28 games on the road.         
Title: Re: Doc will get fired soon
Post by: TripleOT on January 04, 2013, 11:31:24 AM
Answer me this : Who would we hire in Doc's place?




End of story. We aren't firing Doc Rivers.

One of the Van Gundy boys.  Stan went to the Finals with a team that had less talent than what Doc has had since KG and Ray showed up and is anybody going to argue that Jeff isn't a proven coach?  Even after all the success with Boston the last 6 years, JVG still has a better career winning percentage as a coach than Doc.

Danny Ainge.

Larry Brown, for one last run with this group.

Lawrence Frank.

Nate McMillan.

Avery Johnson.

Flip Saunders.

Jerry Sloan.

Terry Porter.

Now, Ainge wouldn't want to do it and there are, of course, things to pick apart with the rest of that list.  But without even looking hard at any promising young NBA assistants or the college ranks, there's 10 guys Boston could probably get to replace Doc if the team wanted to.

Would any of them do a better job than Doc?  Who knows?  But every one of those guys except Porter and Frank right now have better coaching resumes than Doc did before KG and Ray joined the Celtics.

And let me mention that just as I thought it was stupid for the Lakers to can Mike Brown and the Nets to fire Johnson, it would be ridiculous to fire Doc at this point.  But even more ridiculous is the idea that Doc is the ONE TRUE COACH and that there's no one else in the world that could replace "the precious".

Mike
Really? Everyone but Porter and Frank have won COTY? (it's a funny argument to make regardless, given that half of this list is abject failures that I don't want anywhere close to a team I'm rooting for).

Sloan is too old.  No thanks on Avery.  He's shown in Brooklyn that he can't get it done. Frank is under contract with Detroit.  Porter hasn't had a ton of success, although one could make the argument that he didn't have much of a chance in Phoenix.  Saunders rep has been tarnished with his poor run in Washington, but he does have some history with the Cs as a consulting coach.  I wouldn't want him. No thanks on Next Town Brown either.

Ainge was a very good coach, but if he's having heart issues as a GM, I don't see him heading back to the sideline. I would approve of Nate MacMillan from your list, although I think Doc coaches here as long as he wants to.       
Title: Re: Doc will get fired soon
Post by: Chris on January 04, 2013, 11:39:50 AM
At some point, the patience will end.  But, just 30 games (or whatever it is) from being 1 win away from the finals with a beat up team, is nowhere near enough time for them to make a decision.  They will let the season play out, and then decide what to do.

I agree they will be patient with Doc, but I'll be shocked if there aren't any trades after January 15th.  If the Cs falter and go something like 9-14 before the trade deadline, I could envision the brain trust going to Pierce and KG and gauging their willingness to play for a contender this year.

If this team can't make the playoffs, or are barely an 8th seed, I don't see them being a contender next year either. They'd get more value for Pierce and KG at the deadline from a team looking for that one last piece to get over the top than in the summer, where teams would be wondering if they'd get even two years from these players. 

I've never been in the Blow It Up camp, but if the Big 2 isn't getting the role player help around them to make this team a contender, either re-shuffle the role players through trades, or move KG/PP for young players and assets. Sitting back is not an option if the Cs are  23-31 at the trade deadline, with 16 of the remaining 28 games on the road.       

Oh yeah, Danny will be working his butt off to try to make a trade, because this team has a HUGE hole and glaring weakness.

I would be mildly surprised if he does anything really dramatic, but I think he is going to try to get the best big man he can get.  I also think he will take calls about blowing it up, but I just am not that confident he would ever get what he needs to pull the trigger on that.
Title: Re: Doc will get fired soon
Post by: MBunge on January 04, 2013, 11:47:27 AM
Answer me this : Who would we hire in Doc's place?




End of story. We aren't firing Doc Rivers.

One of the Van Gundy boys.  Stan went to the Finals with a team that had less talent than what Doc has had since KG and Ray showed up and is anybody going to argue that Jeff isn't a proven coach?  Even after all the success with Boston the last 6 years, JVG still has a better career winning percentage as a coach than Doc.

Danny Ainge.

Larry Brown, for one last run with this group.

Lawrence Frank.

Nate McMillan.

Avery Johnson.

Flip Saunders.

Jerry Sloan.

Terry Porter.

Now, Ainge wouldn't want to do it and there are, of course, things to pick apart with the rest of that list.  But without even looking hard at any promising young NBA assistants or the college ranks, there's 10 guys Boston could probably get to replace Doc if the team wanted to.

Would any of them do a better job than Doc?  Who knows?  But every one of those guys except Porter and Frank right now have better coaching resumes than Doc did before KG and Ray joined the Celtics.

And let me mention that just as I thought it was stupid for the Lakers to can Mike Brown and the Nets to fire Johnson, it would be ridiculous to fire Doc at this point.  But even more ridiculous is the idea that Doc is the ONE TRUE COACH and that there's no one else in the world that could replace "the precious".

Mike
Really? Everyone but Porter and Frank have won COTY? (it's a funny argument to make regardless, given that half of this list is abject failures that I don't want anywhere close to a team I'm rooting for).

How many games did Doc win to get COTY?  I believe it was 41.  What was Doc's record between that and KG and Ray arriving in Boston?

43-39
44-38
42-40
1-10
45-37
33-49
24-58

How many times did Doc ever win a division title before KG and Ray?  Once.  How many times did he lead a team past the first round of the playoffs?  Never.

So, yeah.  If you compare their overall records and not monkey around by picking ONE thing and pretending that's all that matters, everybody on that list expect Porter and Frank have better coaching resumes right now that Doc did before KG and Ray arrived in Boston.

Oh, and some other COTY winners?

Mike Brown.
Mike Dunleavy.
Mike D'Antoni.
Del Harris.
Don Chaney.
Sam Mitchell.

Yeah, that COTY award is sure definitive proof of coaching greatness.  So, you wouldn't object to Mike Brown replacing Doc?

Mike
Title: Re: Doc will get fired soon
Post by: nickagneta on January 04, 2013, 12:13:13 PM
Mike you keep reverting back to Doc's record before he got here like none of those other coaches ever had talented teams to be judged on.

Sloan had two of the best players of a generation and won nothing.

Frank had Kidd, Carter and Jefferson in their prime and won nothing.

Avery Johnson had Dirk, Terry, Stackhouse and Josh Howard in their prime and won nothing.

Fact is except for Larry Brown, who is not coming to coach this team, none of the coaches you mentioned have the resume that Doc has or the respect of the players that Doc has.

Could they replace Doc, sure. Should anyone expect a group of players loyal to one coach, to suddenly play much better for a coach they do not want coaching them? I don't think they should believe that would be the logical result.

If Doc had lost the players or control of the clubhouse, he would have to go. That hasn't happened so management will stick with Doc.