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Around the League => Transaction Ideas and Rumors => Topic started by: StartOrien on January 02, 2013, 05:44:50 PM

Title: 3 Way Deal Bos/Tor/Sac (Simmons Idea)
Post by: StartOrien on January 02, 2013, 05:44:50 PM
I know the DMC rumors are dying down, but I saw this Simmons tweet on Celticslife and it got me thinking, after some tweaks here's what I came up with:

Quote
Boston Sends: Rajon Rondo, Courtney Lee, Fab Melo
Boston Receives: Demarcus Cousins, Chuck Hayes, Kyle Lowry

Toronto Sends: Demar Derozan, Kyle Lowry
Toronto Receives: Tyreke Evans, Isiah Thomas, Francisco Garcia

Sacramento Sends: Demarcus Cousins, Tyreke Evans, Chuck Hayes, Francisco Garcia, Isiah Thomas
Sacramento Receives: Rajon Rondo, Courtney Lee, Demar Derozan, Fab Melo

I'm wondering what people think of the basic premise of the trade:

Would you do it? If yes, would you still do it if it was Jose Calderon instead of Kyle Lowry? Do you think I'm dumb? If so, because I suggested this trade idea or is it for another reason?

I thought it was a VERY interesting trade, and I'd think even if you're not a DMC guy (I definitely am) you'd still have to give it some thought.

EDIT: after a little thought, I'm thinking it'd probably have to be Calderon instead of Lowry and would cost us Jason Collins to match salaries.  To be clear, I'd much prefer Lowry in the trade but I think the Raps dig their feet in (even if Calderon's currently starting)  perhaps along with a first round pick
Title: Re: 3 Way Deal Bos/Tor/Sac (Simmons Idea)
Post by: nickagneta on January 02, 2013, 05:50:11 PM
You sure this isn't IP's trade idea, after all we all know how much Kyle Lowry love he has.
Title: Re: 3 Way Deal Bos/Tor/Sac (Simmons Idea)
Post by: ScottHow on January 02, 2013, 05:50:43 PM
I'd do it.
Title: Re: 3 Way Deal Bos/Tor/Sac (Simmons Idea)
Post by: CoachBo on January 02, 2013, 05:51:28 PM
Certainly one of the most balanced ideas I've seen.

And one I'd take a hard look at.
Title: Re: 3 Way Deal Bos/Tor/Sac (Simmons Idea)
Post by: StartOrien on January 02, 2013, 05:52:02 PM
You sure this isn't IP's trade idea, after all we all know how much Kyle Lowry love he has.

Ha. Here's the original Simmons idea, which I thought was too favorable for the Celtics and definitely not enough from the Raptors:

http://espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=bl5ydks (http://espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=bl5ydks)
Title: Re: 3 Way Deal Bos/Tor/Sac (Simmons Idea)
Post by: Eddie20 on January 02, 2013, 05:55:06 PM
I don't like it for us. So we add another combo guard (Lowry is a scorer in a PG's body) and another undersized PF, but give up the best player in the deal, a prospect (Melo), and a player (Lee) that I like more than Lowry.  To add Cousins?
Title: Re: 3 Way Deal Bos/Tor/Sac (Simmons Idea)
Post by: nickagneta on January 02, 2013, 05:59:08 PM
I wouldn't give up one of the top 3 PGs in the league and easily the best passing PG in the league for a headache head case like Cousins and a mediocre PG at best in Lowry. If I'm giving up Rondo and have to settle for Lowry at PG, I want something od a sure thing coming along with him, not Cousins who might be the biggest question mark in the league.
Title: Re: 3 Way Deal Bos/Tor/Sac (Simmons Idea)
Post by: Accension13 on January 02, 2013, 06:01:12 PM
Simmons stole the premise of my idea.  I had the c's sending out more salary and landing Bargnani,  cousins,  and lowry. I would love to get Evans too, but that maybe asking too much.  I didn't post it because of all the don't trade Rondo posts it probably would have drawn
Title: Re: 3 Way Deal Bos/Tor/Sac (Simmons Idea)
Post by: jambr380 on January 02, 2013, 06:04:13 PM
I don't like it for us. So we add another combo guard (Lowry is a scorer in a PG's body) and another undersized PF, but give up the best player in the deal, a prospect (Melo), and a player (Lee) that I like more than Lowry.  To add Cousins?

I agree, it essentially becomes Rondo for Cousins, which I'm not even close to doing. I get that Lowry is better than Lee, but I think I would rather keep Melo than acquire Hayes. If people are hesitant about tradng Avery for Cousins, inserting Rondo, instead, should infuriate people.
Title: Re: 3 Way Deal Bos/Tor/Sac (Simmons Idea)
Post by: StartOrien on January 02, 2013, 06:11:58 PM
I don't like it for us. So we add another combo guard (Lowry is a scorer in a PG's body) and another undersized PF, but give up the best player in the deal, a prospect (Melo), and a player (Lee) that I like more than Lowry.  To add Cousins?

I agree, it essentially becomes Rondo for Cousins, which I'm not even close to doing. I get that Lowry is better than Lee, but I think I would rather keep Melo than acquire Hayes. If people are hesitant about tradng Avery for Cousins, inserting Rondo, instead, should infuriate people.

To me, when all the dust is settled the heart of the trade is Rondo for Cousins and a respectable starting Point Guard.

I like Courtney Lee as well, but I don't see where he's going to get playoff minutes if this team is healthy.
Title: Re: 3 Way Deal Bos/Tor/Sac (Simmons Idea)
Post by: hardlyyardley on January 02, 2013, 06:12:54 PM
Bad for Toronto....and I disagree with bulk of Lowry's assessment in prior posts...he is underrated as is Derozen
Title: Re: 3 Way Deal Bos/Tor/Sac (Simmons Idea)
Post by: Atzar on January 02, 2013, 06:18:02 PM
I don't think Boston wants to give up Rondo for Cousins.  I'm not crazy about Lowry; inefficient and has a hard time staying on the court. 

Toronto is giving up two solid assets for a solid asset and two decent roleplayers.  Seems to me that they need to be adding assets with any moves they make, not subtracting them. 

Sacramento considers this, and is probably the most likely to accept.  This core doesn't seem to be going anywhere.  But I'm still not convinced that they move Cousins.  Whether they accept hinges on whether they think a contender can be built with Rondo as the alpha dog.
Title: Re: 3 Way Deal Bos/Tor/Sac (Simmons Idea)
Post by: StartOrien on January 02, 2013, 06:23:40 PM
Bad for Toronto....and I disagree with bulk of Lowry's assessment in prior posts...he is underrated as is Derozen

Toronto is the one I had a hard time with. But I'm not crazy about Derozan as a player, and I think he becomes expendable with Terrence Ross emerging. Evans brings a different skill set and can defend three positions.

Plus, I think Isiah Thomas is an underrated chip. I love that kid
Title: Re: 3 Way Deal Bos/Tor/Sac (Simmons Idea)
Post by: Who on January 02, 2013, 06:26:01 PM
I would prefer Tyreke Evans to Kyle Lowry. Tyreke has more star talent.

Any trade that sees Rondo go out for Cousins is going to be one for the future rather than a win now move so the guard with more potential is the more valuable asset than the superior win-now player in K.Lowry.
Title: Re: 3 Way Deal Bos/Tor/Sac (Simmons Idea)
Post by: Clench123 on January 02, 2013, 06:27:09 PM
Any trade that involves our big three is dumb, period.
Title: Re: 3 Way Deal Bos/Tor/Sac (Simmons Idea)
Post by: Who on January 02, 2013, 06:28:37 PM
It's an awful trade idea that no chance of happening because of Toronto.

The Boston-Sacramento part is a credible idea. Whether you'd do it or not is another matter. But at least it is a genuine and realistic idea.

However, the Toronto part of the exchange is absolutely ridiculous. Lowry by himself for Tyreke is an overpay at this point in time. DeRozan by himself for Tyreke is really good value for Sacramento. The two of them together for Tyreke? Ridiculous.
Title: Re: 3 Way Deal Bos/Tor/Sac (Simmons Idea)
Post by: bfrombleacher on January 02, 2013, 06:30:06 PM
I would prefer Tyreke Evans to Kyle Lowry. Tyreke has more star talent.

This and also if we did not include Fab Melo. We're giving up the best player right here on the best contract.
Title: Re: 3 Way Deal Bos/Tor/Sac (Simmons Idea)
Post by: StartOrien on January 02, 2013, 06:32:39 PM
I would prefer Tyreke Evans to Kyle Lowry. Tyreke has more star talent.

And trade that sees Rondo go out for Cousins is going to be one for the future rather than a win now move so the guard with more potential is the more valuable asset than the superior win-now player in K.Lowry.

I'm not sure I agree with this. The height that DMC and Garnett bring to us could give teams fits, and give us an advantage over the Heat that we really don't have right now.

Plus, the defensive combo of Lowry and Bradley would be fantastic. Two incredible on-ball defenders giving backcourts nightmare.
Title: Re: 3 Way Deal Bos/Tor/Sac (Simmons Idea)
Post by: gpap on January 02, 2013, 06:34:37 PM
I'd do it.
Title: Re: 3 Way Deal Bos/Tor/Sac (Simmons Idea)
Post by: blackbird on January 02, 2013, 06:40:35 PM
The only reason to trade Rondo would be to dump Jeff Green as well. Any trade that ships out Rondo and keeps an albatross on the roster is a non-starter, IMO.
Title: Re: 3 Way Deal Bos/Tor/Sac (Simmons Idea)
Post by: ssspence on January 02, 2013, 06:47:17 PM
I'd rather not have Lowry, and its hard to imagine Toronto being interested.
Title: Re: 3 Way Deal Bos/Tor/Sac (Simmons Idea)
Post by: Roy H. on January 02, 2013, 06:48:09 PM
I don't like it much for Toronto.
Title: Re: 3 Way Deal Bos/Tor/Sac (Simmons Idea)
Post by: Atzar on January 02, 2013, 06:50:10 PM
The only reason to trade Rondo would be to dump Jeff Green as well. Any trade that ships out Rondo and keeps an albatross on the roster is a non-starter, IMO.

lol, how is he already an albatross?  Can we at least wait a season or so before we decide that he already failed?

The guy's coming off of heart surgery.  I want more from him too, but let's be reasonable here.
Title: Re: 3 Way Deal Bos/Tor/Sac (Simmons Idea)
Post by: StartOrien on January 02, 2013, 07:04:10 PM
I don't like it much for Toronto.

What if it was Calderon instead of Lowry?
Title: Re: 3 Way Deal Bos/Tor/Sac (Simmons Idea)
Post by: Roy H. on January 02, 2013, 07:07:37 PM
I don't like it much for Toronto.

What if it was Calderon instead of Lowry?

Then I wouldn't like it for Boston.
Title: Re: 3 Way Deal Bos/Tor/Sac (Simmons Idea)
Post by: rutzan on January 02, 2013, 07:09:09 PM
i have been saying for days now that sactown will try a 3-team trade involving cousins and evans but repeatedly shot down...i duly expect the obligatory defamation of simmon's character...or mine...no worries...as a pre-requisite rationalization...rondo is too high a price for what we are getting in this though...
Title: Re: 3 Way Deal Bos/Tor/Sac (Simmons Idea)
Post by: Who on January 02, 2013, 07:13:06 PM
I don't think Tyreke and Calderon could co-exist.

Calderon, he needs a quite a bit of time on the ball to take advantage of his skills as a floor general, leader and facilitator offensively. Tyreke's game isn't conducive to that type of PG play. Too weak off the ball. Far too reliant on having the ball in his hands.

I think Lowry and Tyreke would work well together. Lowry is more of a scorer than Calderon. Can go and off the ball with greater ease without losing a large amount of his own individual effectiveness (unlike Calderon). Lowry and Tyreke would complement one another well. Give you a nice 1-2 punch in a pick and roll orientated offense.
Title: Re: 3 Way Deal Bos/Tor/Sac (Simmons Idea)
Post by: Evantime34 on January 02, 2013, 07:20:38 PM
I don't like it for Toronto unless they are getting two firsts in addition.
Title: Re: 3 Way Deal Bos/Tor/Sac (Simmons Idea)
Post by: syfy9 on January 02, 2013, 07:32:29 PM
Kyle Lowry is injury prone, but that's the only reason I wouldn't do it.
Title: Re: 3 Way Deal Bos/Tor/Sac (Simmons Idea)
Post by: StartOrien on January 02, 2013, 09:15:24 PM
I don't like it much for Toronto.

What if it was Calderon instead of Lowry?

Then I wouldn't like it for Boston.

I think I'd do it, though I suspect I'd be in the minority. I really like the idea of combining Garnett and Cousins. Two great post players, two very capable passers. The offense would be a thing of beauty.
Title: Re: 3 Way Deal Bos/Tor/Sac (Simmons Idea)
Post by: ssspence on January 02, 2013, 09:31:09 PM
I don't think Tyreke and Calderon could co-exist.

Calderon, he needs a quite a bit of time on the ball to take advantage of his skills as a floor general, leader and facilitator offensively. Tyreke's game isn't conducive to that type of PG play. Too weak off the ball. Far too reliant on having the ball in his hands.

I think Lowry and Tyreke would work well together. Lowry is more of a scorer than Calderon. Can go and off the ball with greater ease without losing a large amount of his own individual effectiveness (unlike Calderon). Lowry and Tyreke would complement one another well. Give you a nice 1-2 punch in a pick and roll orientated offense.

Don't agree on Evans and Lowry. Both need to be primary ballhandler to flourish.

Tyreke needs to play next to a spot-up shooter who can defend opposing PGs. Having nothing to do with the fact that he's a Celtic, Bradley would actually be a good fit.

I assume that's why the Kings thought Brooks would be a fit... that is before he forgot how to play basketball.

Title: Re: 3 Way Deal Bos/Tor/Sac (Simmons Idea)
Post by: Who on January 02, 2013, 09:44:32 PM
I don't think Tyreke and Calderon could co-exist.

Calderon, he needs a quite a bit of time on the ball to take advantage of his skills as a floor general, leader and facilitator offensively. Tyreke's game isn't conducive to that type of PG play. Too weak off the ball. Far too reliant on having the ball in his hands.

I think Lowry and Tyreke would work well together. Lowry is more of a scorer than Calderon. Can go and off the ball with greater ease without losing a large amount of his own individual effectiveness (unlike Calderon). Lowry and Tyreke would complement one another well. Give you a nice 1-2 punch in a pick and roll orientated offense.

Don't agree on Evans and Lowry. Both need to be primary ballhandler to flourish.

Tyreke needs to play next to a spot-up shooter who can defend opposing PGs. Having nothing to do with the fact that he's a Celtic, Bradley would actually be a good fit.

I assume that's why the Kings thought Brooks would be a fit... that is before he forgot how to play basketball.

Brooks is too selfish offensively to play alongside a guy like Tyreke. Between the two of them, it leads too much individualism offensively. A.Brooks is a massive liability as a defender/rebounder also. Bad fit.

I fully agree that Avery Bradley would be a great fit alongside Tyreke.
Title: Re: 3 Way Deal Bos/Tor/Sac (Simmons Idea)
Post by: LEHGOCELTICS on January 02, 2013, 09:54:22 PM
Any trade that involves our big three is dumb, period.

And this narrow-minded mentality is precisely why our team sucks as much as it does right now.
Title: Re: 3 Way Deal Bos/Tor/Sac (Simmons Idea)
Post by: LEHGOCELTICS on January 02, 2013, 09:55:57 PM
And all of those people that think Lowry is a mediocre point guard clearly have not been watching basketball this season. Aside from the assist-padding that Rondo excels at, Lowry has been better than Rondo in almost every other facet.
Title: Re: 3 Way Deal Bos/Tor/Sac (Simmons Idea)
Post by: gpap on January 02, 2013, 10:05:09 PM
I don't like it much for Toronto.

What if it was Calderon instead of Lowry?

I'd like it even better for the Celts if it was Calderon over Lowry. Not sure why so many here are so down on Calderon, but I think he's got great three point range. Something we badly need if you saw tonight's game (minus the 2 Terry treys in the 4th quarter.)
Title: Re: 3 Way Deal Bos/Tor/Sac (Simmons Idea)
Post by: StartOrien on January 02, 2013, 10:42:44 PM
I don't like it much for Toronto.

What if it was Calderon instead of Lowry?

I'd like it even better for the Celts if it was Calderon over Lowry. Not sure why so many here are so down on Calderon, but I think he's got great three point range. Something we badly need if you saw tonight's game (minus the 2 Terry treys in the 4th quarter.)

Even w/ concerns about his injuries, I'd much prefer Lowry. Again, I think pairing him alongside Bradley would be a lot of fun. That defense would be too much to pass up on, even if Calderon might be the better facilitator in this proposed offense.

Also, I believe the Jet could potentially play point if the team was built more to work inside-out.
Title: Re: 3 Way Deal Bos/Tor/Sac (Simmons Idea)
Post by: jambr380 on January 02, 2013, 11:12:52 PM
I think Danny would like it more if it were Tyreke instead of Lowry or Calderon. It would also cut out the third team in the equation.

The problem I see is that we are trying to turn multiple players into one very good player and in this scenario, we are taking our best player and turning him into two - kind of the opposite...although, apparently Cousins is 'supposed' to be as valuable as Rondo.
Title: Re: 3 Way Deal Bos/Tor/Sac (Simmons Idea)
Post by: indeedproceed on January 02, 2013, 11:16:51 PM
I wouldn't give up one of the top 3 PGs in the league and easily the best passing PG in the league for a headache head case like Cousins and a mediocre PG at best in Lowry. If I'm giving up Rondo and have to settle for Lowry at PG, I want something od a sure thing coming along with him, not Cousins who might be the biggest question mark in the league.

Nick burns with the heat of a thousand suns over the summer 2011 defeat.
Title: Re: 3 Way Deal Bos/Tor/Sac (Simmons Idea)
Post by: StartOrien on January 03, 2013, 12:05:55 AM
I think Danny would like it more if it were Tyreke instead of Lowry or Calderon. It would also cut out the third team in the equation.

The problem I see is that we are trying to turn multiple players into one very good player and in this scenario, we are taking our best player and turning him into two - kind of the opposite...although, apparently Cousins is 'supposed' to be as valuable as Rondo.

If you were going to build an offense around Kevin Garnett and Demarcus Cousins, I'd take myself, Deli Guy or present-day Mateen Cleeves over Tyreke Evans at point guard. 
Title: Re: 3 Way Deal Bos/Tor/Sac (Simmons Idea)
Post by: indeedproceed on January 03, 2013, 12:17:05 AM
I think Danny would like it more if it were Tyreke instead of Lowry or Calderon. It would also cut out the third team in the equation.

The problem I see is that we are trying to turn multiple players into one very good player and in this scenario, we are taking our best player and turning him into two - kind of the opposite...although, apparently Cousins is 'supposed' to be as valuable as Rondo.

If you were going to build an offense around Kevin Garnett and Demarcus Cousins, I'd take myself, Deli Guy or present-day Mateen Cleeves over Tyreke Evans at point guard.

Putting Mateen Cleaves next to deli guy is like putting a moth next to a flame. So really, it's just you.
Title: Re: 3 Way Deal Bos/Tor/Sac (Simmons Idea)
Post by: StartOrien on January 03, 2013, 12:19:59 AM
I've decided that I'd definitely do the trade, even if it was just for Calderon -

I'm convinced that we have a better chance at winning the title this year by having a strategic advantage (two elite post players) than we do currently. Moving forward in the future, I'd like to roll the dice on giving DMC a better supporting cast before his rookie contract expires.

Long term, I think he's the better option, too. My concern is with building around Rondo-

If this current roster is SO mediocre (at least for now), what makes us think that the future will be any better? How likely is it that we'll be able to build a more talented roster than the current one? This feels like rock bottom right now, and it doesn't seem like Rondo has become anymore assertive. Why would that change going on in the future.

Knucklehead or not, the talent is there for DeMarcus Cousins. If he can put it together great, if not, so be it. But I'm fairly confident Rondo isn't the guy either.
Title: Re: 3 Way Deal Bos/Tor/Sac (Simmons Idea)
Post by: indeedproceed on January 03, 2013, 12:33:14 AM
Id wait til Bradley gets some time with Rondo, and give the fellas a Lil more time to gel, and Danny a Lil more time to work and allow Jeff Green the chance to up his trade value.

But if this is the baseline, Id do it.
Title: Re: 3 Way Deal Bos/Tor/Sac (Simmons Idea)
Post by: Roy H. on January 03, 2013, 07:58:09 AM
I don't like it much for Toronto.

What if it was Calderon instead of Lowry?

I'd like it even better for the Celts if it was Calderon over Lowry. Not sure why so many here are so down on Calderon, but I think he's got great three point range. Something we badly need if you saw tonight's game (minus the 2 Terry treys in the 4th quarter.)

Calderon is one of the worst defending PGs in the NBA (Dan Dickau-esque), and he plays almost strictly on the perimeter.  There's a reason Toronto gave up a lottery pick to acquire Lowry (a very good defender, shooter, passer, and overall scorer.)
Title: Re: 3 Way Deal Bos/Tor/Sac (Simmons Idea)
Post by: pearljammer10 on January 03, 2013, 08:30:52 AM
I don't like it much for Toronto.

What if it was Calderon instead of Lowry?

I'd like it even better for the Celts if it was Calderon over Lowry. Not sure why so many here are so down on Calderon, but I think he's got great three point range. Something we badly need if you saw tonight's game (minus the 2 Terry treys in the 4th quarter.)

Calderon is one of the worst defending PGs in the NBA (Dan Dickau-esque), and he plays almost strictly on the perimeter.  There's a reason Toronto gave up a lottery pick to acquire Lowry (a very good defender, shooter, passer, and overall scorer.)

Imagine Calderon and Terry on the defensive end of the court for us at the same time.  :o
Title: Re: 3 Way Deal Bos/Tor/Sac (Simmons Idea)
Post by: AshyLarry on January 03, 2013, 08:48:55 AM
I just don't read anything that involves Rondo anymore.
Title: Re: 3 Way Deal Bos/Tor/Sac (Simmons Idea)
Post by: Chris on January 03, 2013, 09:04:27 AM
I liked Simmons' original deal better

http://espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=bl5ydks

I do think Toronto would be the main holdup in the deal, but with Lowry underperforming, Thomas continuing to look solid, and Evans still having the tantalizing star potential, I could see the value making sense...although it would come down to the personal preference of Toronto's GM.

For the C's, I think this is the kind of deal (short of a deal for a superstar like Paul) where you could give up Rondo.  You get a quality youngish PG in return, who may be a step below, but is still decent in Lowry, and you get a flier on a potential star with questionmarks in Cousins.

It also would be the type of deal Sacramento would likely jump at.  Rondo gives them a chance to start to try to win, and make better use of the offensive players they still have.  He also thrives in the up-tempo game they really want to play, and should work well in the pick and roll with Robinson.
Title: Re: 3 Way Deal Bos/Tor/Sac (Simmons Idea)
Post by: Moranis on January 03, 2013, 09:17:38 AM
I liked Simmons' original deal better

http://espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=bl5ydks

I do think Toronto would be the main holdup in the deal, but with Lowry underperforming, Thomas continuing to look solid, and Evans still having the tantalizing star potential, I could see the value making sense...although it would come down to the personal preference of Toronto's GM.

For the C's, I think this is the kind of deal (short of a deal for a superstar like Paul) where you could give up Rondo.  You get a quality youngish PG in return, who may be a step below, but is still decent in Lowry, and you get a flier on a potential star with questionmarks in Cousins.

It also would be the type of deal Sacramento would likely jump at.  Rondo gives them a chance to start to try to win, and make better use of the offensive players they still have.  He also thrives in the up-tempo game they really want to play, and should work well in the pick and roll with Robinson.
I don't think Sacto gives up Fredette in the trade, but it would be something I would do.  Think it gives Boston a better chance this year and probably sets it up better going forward as well.  Frankly, I think you could just cut Toronto out of that trade and just do a straight trade without them (since only Lowry is involved).  Financially it still works without Toronto and with or without Jimmer (I think you try to get Jimmer, but if they balk you say ok).

Thus the Boston lineup post-trade would be

PG - Evans, Thomas, Barbosa
SG - Bradley, Terry
SF - Pierce, Green
PF - Garnett, Bass, Sullinger, Hayes
C - Cousins, Wilcox, Collins

Seems like a team that would be closer to a title this year since the interior is the teams biggest weakness and that shores up nicely.  It also is a team that is younger and has a higher long term ceiling because of Cousins and Evans immense talent.
Title: Re: 3 Way Deal Bos/Tor/Sac (Simmons Idea)
Post by: ssspence on January 03, 2013, 09:23:35 AM
I don't like it much for Toronto.

What if it was Calderon instead of Lowry?

I'd like it even better for the Celts if it was Calderon over Lowry. Not sure why so many here are so down on Calderon, but I think he's got great three point range. Something we badly need if you saw tonight's game (minus the 2 Terry treys in the 4th quarter.)

Calderon is one of the worst defending PGs in the NBA (Dan Dickau-esque), and he plays almost strictly on the perimeter.  There's a reason Toronto gave up a lottery pick to acquire Lowry (a very good defender, shooter, passer, and overall scorer.)

I'm in no way interested in Calderon nor defending him, but it's worth pointing out that the Raps have been playing much better lately with Lowry out and Calderon on the floor. 
Title: Re: 3 Way Deal Bos/Tor/Sac (Simmons Idea)
Post by: Chris on January 03, 2013, 09:26:19 AM
I liked Simmons' original deal better

http://espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=bl5ydks

I do think Toronto would be the main holdup in the deal, but with Lowry underperforming, Thomas continuing to look solid, and Evans still having the tantalizing star potential, I could see the value making sense...although it would come down to the personal preference of Toronto's GM.

For the C's, I think this is the kind of deal (short of a deal for a superstar like Paul) where you could give up Rondo.  You get a quality youngish PG in return, who may be a step below, but is still decent in Lowry, and you get a flier on a potential star with questionmarks in Cousins.

It also would be the type of deal Sacramento would likely jump at.  Rondo gives them a chance to start to try to win, and make better use of the offensive players they still have.  He also thrives in the up-tempo game they really want to play, and should work well in the pick and roll with Robinson.
I don't think Sacto gives up Fredette in the trade, but it would be something I would do.  Think it gives Boston a better chance this year and probably sets it up better going forward as well.  Frankly, I think you could just cut Toronto out of that trade and just do a straight trade without them (since only Lowry is involved).  Financially it still works without Toronto and with or without Jimmer (I think you try to get Jimmer, but if they balk you say ok).

Thus the Boston lineup post-trade would be

PG - Evans, Thomas, Barbosa
SG - Bradley, Terry
SF - Pierce, Green
PF - Garnett, Bass, Sullinger, Hayes
C - Cousins, Wilcox, Collins

Seems like a team that would be closer to a title this year since the interior is the teams biggest weakness and that shores up nicely.  It also is a team that is younger and has a higher long term ceiling because of Cousins and Evans immense talent.

To me, Lowry is the key to the trade, because he takes it from a huge gamble with by far your most valuable asset, to a relatively low risk, high reward trade. 
Title: Re: 3 Way Deal Bos/Tor/Sac (Simmons Idea)
Post by: Moranis on January 03, 2013, 10:17:40 AM
I liked Simmons' original deal better

http://espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=bl5ydks

I do think Toronto would be the main holdup in the deal, but with Lowry underperforming, Thomas continuing to look solid, and Evans still having the tantalizing star potential, I could see the value making sense...although it would come down to the personal preference of Toronto's GM.

For the C's, I think this is the kind of deal (short of a deal for a superstar like Paul) where you could give up Rondo.  You get a quality youngish PG in return, who may be a step below, but is still decent in Lowry, and you get a flier on a potential star with questionmarks in Cousins.

It also would be the type of deal Sacramento would likely jump at.  Rondo gives them a chance to start to try to win, and make better use of the offensive players they still have.  He also thrives in the up-tempo game they really want to play, and should work well in the pick and roll with Robinson.
I don't think Sacto gives up Fredette in the trade, but it would be something I would do.  Think it gives Boston a better chance this year and probably sets it up better going forward as well.  Frankly, I think you could just cut Toronto out of that trade and just do a straight trade without them (since only Lowry is involved).  Financially it still works without Toronto and with or without Jimmer (I think you try to get Jimmer, but if they balk you say ok).

Thus the Boston lineup post-trade would be

PG - Evans, Thomas, Barbosa
SG - Bradley, Terry
SF - Pierce, Green
PF - Garnett, Bass, Sullinger, Hayes
C - Cousins, Wilcox, Collins

Seems like a team that would be closer to a title this year since the interior is the teams biggest weakness and that shores up nicely.  It also is a team that is younger and has a higher long term ceiling because of Cousins and Evans immense talent.

To me, Lowry is the key to the trade, because he takes it from a huge gamble with by far your most valuable asset, to a relatively low risk, high reward trade.
Honestly I'd rather have Evans and Thomas than Lowry.  Lowry is a better rebounder and defender, but he is always hurt and he is no where near the dynamic offensive player Evans is and Thomas is looking like he will be a solid player for a long time. 
Title: Re: 3 Way Deal Bos/Tor/Sac (Simmons Idea)
Post by: TripleOT on January 03, 2013, 10:26:03 AM
I don't see Toronto giving up Lowry for Evans and Thomas.  I'd prefer Lowry, but would probably do the trade with Evans and Thomas. 

I love Rondo, but he's the only real top level trade asset on the Celtics.  Cousins, Evans, Thomas, and Fredette is a pretty good haul for Rondo.  The wild card is Cousins, of course.  If he straightens out and gets the most of his ability, this deal is a slam dunk.  If he doesn't or even worst, plays well until he signs a max deal, and then goes back to the current behavior, this deal is a franchise killer. 
Title: Re: 3 Way Deal Bos/Tor/Sac (Simmons Idea)
Post by: Chris on January 03, 2013, 10:30:07 AM
I liked Simmons' original deal better

http://espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=bl5ydks

I do think Toronto would be the main holdup in the deal, but with Lowry underperforming, Thomas continuing to look solid, and Evans still having the tantalizing star potential, I could see the value making sense...although it would come down to the personal preference of Toronto's GM.

For the C's, I think this is the kind of deal (short of a deal for a superstar like Paul) where you could give up Rondo.  You get a quality youngish PG in return, who may be a step below, but is still decent in Lowry, and you get a flier on a potential star with questionmarks in Cousins.

It also would be the type of deal Sacramento would likely jump at.  Rondo gives them a chance to start to try to win, and make better use of the offensive players they still have.  He also thrives in the up-tempo game they really want to play, and should work well in the pick and roll with Robinson.
I don't think Sacto gives up Fredette in the trade, but it would be something I would do.  Think it gives Boston a better chance this year and probably sets it up better going forward as well.  Frankly, I think you could just cut Toronto out of that trade and just do a straight trade without them (since only Lowry is involved).  Financially it still works without Toronto and with or without Jimmer (I think you try to get Jimmer, but if they balk you say ok).

Thus the Boston lineup post-trade would be

PG - Evans, Thomas, Barbosa
SG - Bradley, Terry
SF - Pierce, Green
PF - Garnett, Bass, Sullinger, Hayes
C - Cousins, Wilcox, Collins

Seems like a team that would be closer to a title this year since the interior is the teams biggest weakness and that shores up nicely.  It also is a team that is younger and has a higher long term ceiling because of Cousins and Evans immense talent.

To me, Lowry is the key to the trade, because he takes it from a huge gamble with by far your most valuable asset, to a relatively low risk, high reward trade.
Honestly I'd rather have Evans and Thomas than Lowry.  Lowry is a better rebounder and defender, but he is always hurt and he is no where near the dynamic offensive player Evans is and Thomas is looking like he will be a solid player for a long time.

In a vaccuum, I agree.  When you are also banking on Cousins, and giving up Rondo, no thank you. 

Lowry lets you balance the risk with the reward, while Evans is going all in.

Not to mention, Evans is up to be resigned this summer, and it is always bad news to trade away your star for a young guy that needs to be signed.  Kills your leverage. 
Title: Re: 3 Way Deal Bos/Tor/Sac (Simmons Idea)
Post by: ssspence on January 03, 2013, 10:41:44 AM
I liked Simmons' original deal better

http://espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=bl5ydks

I do think Toronto would be the main holdup in the deal, but with Lowry underperforming, Thomas continuing to look solid, and Evans still having the tantalizing star potential, I could see the value making sense...although it would come down to the personal preference of Toronto's GM.

For the C's, I think this is the kind of deal (short of a deal for a superstar like Paul) where you could give up Rondo.  You get a quality youngish PG in return, who may be a step below, but is still decent in Lowry, and you get a flier on a potential star with questionmarks in Cousins.

It also would be the type of deal Sacramento would likely jump at.  Rondo gives them a chance to start to try to win, and make better use of the offensive players they still have.  He also thrives in the up-tempo game they really want to play, and should work well in the pick and roll with Robinson.
I don't think Sacto gives up Fredette in the trade, but it would be something I would do.  Think it gives Boston a better chance this year and probably sets it up better going forward as well.  Frankly, I think you could just cut Toronto out of that trade and just do a straight trade without them (since only Lowry is involved).  Financially it still works without Toronto and with or without Jimmer (I think you try to get Jimmer, but if they balk you say ok).

Thus the Boston lineup post-trade would be

PG - Evans, Thomas, Barbosa
SG - Bradley, Terry
SF - Pierce, Green
PF - Garnett, Bass, Sullinger, Hayes
C - Cousins, Wilcox, Collins

Seems like a team that would be closer to a title this year since the interior is the teams biggest weakness and that shores up nicely.  It also is a team that is younger and has a higher long term ceiling because of Cousins and Evans immense talent.

To me, Lowry is the key to the trade, because he takes it from a huge gamble with by far your most valuable asset, to a relatively low risk, high reward trade.
Honestly I'd rather have Evans and Thomas than Lowry.  Lowry is a better rebounder and defender, but he is always hurt and he is no where near the dynamic offensive player Evans is and Thomas is looking like he will be a solid player for a long time.

In a vaccuum, I agree.  When you are also banking on Cousins, and giving up Rondo, no thank you. 

Lowry lets you balance the risk with the reward, while Evans is going all in.

Not to mention, Evans is up to be resigned this summer, and it is always bad news to trade away your star for a young guy that needs to be signed.  Kills your leverage.

Agreed. Evans would be interesting next to Bradley, especially as this squad is set-up to be a half-court team (Rondo's weakness) as long as Pierce and KG are on the roster. Evans, Bradley, PP, KG, Cousins would be a very tough offensive team, and in my opinion every bit as good defensively as they currently exist.

But this would assume you knew Evans would agree to a reasonable deal this summer (i.e. not be unreasonable, play for the qualifying offer in 13-14, then be a UFA). For what its worth, I don't think he'll get big offers as a RFA, but hard to say what 3 months playing for the Cs could do for him.

Under the circumstances, Evans and Cousins together = very high risk.
Title: Re: 3 Way Deal Bos/Tor/Sac (Simmons Idea)
Post by: ssspence on January 03, 2013, 11:07:07 AM
I liked Simmons' original deal better

http://espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=bl5ydks

I do think Toronto would be the main holdup in the deal, but with Lowry underperforming, Thomas continuing to look solid, and Evans still having the tantalizing star potential, I could see the value making sense...although it would come down to the personal preference of Toronto's GM.

For the C's, I think this is the kind of deal (short of a deal for a superstar like Paul) where you could give up Rondo.  You get a quality youngish PG in return, who may be a step below, but is still decent in Lowry, and you get a flier on a potential star with questionmarks in Cousins.

It also would be the type of deal Sacramento would likely jump at.  Rondo gives them a chance to start to try to win, and make better use of the offensive players they still have.  He also thrives in the up-tempo game they really want to play, and should work well in the pick and roll with Robinson.

I agree his original idea made more sense, largely because I don't see why Toronto gives up on DeRozen.

However, I'd assume the Cs would be more interested in Evans than Lowry. We knew that Ainge has had interest in both Evans and Cousins, and as I note above Evans could thrive next to an off guard who can defend 1s like Bradley.

I guess my point is: if the Cs are going to go down the road of trading Rondo in a deal for Cousins, wouldn't the more likely 'who says no' scenario look more like the below?

Cs trade to SAC: Rondo, Bass and Wilcox
Cs receive from SAC: Evans, Cousins, Garcia and J. Johnson

Title: Re: 3 Way Deal Bos/Tor/Sac (Simmons Idea)
Post by: Chris on January 03, 2013, 11:11:10 AM
I liked Simmons' original deal better

http://espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=bl5ydks

I do think Toronto would be the main holdup in the deal, but with Lowry underperforming, Thomas continuing to look solid, and Evans still having the tantalizing star potential, I could see the value making sense...although it would come down to the personal preference of Toronto's GM.

For the C's, I think this is the kind of deal (short of a deal for a superstar like Paul) where you could give up Rondo.  You get a quality youngish PG in return, who may be a step below, but is still decent in Lowry, and you get a flier on a potential star with questionmarks in Cousins.

It also would be the type of deal Sacramento would likely jump at.  Rondo gives them a chance to start to try to win, and make better use of the offensive players they still have.  He also thrives in the up-tempo game they really want to play, and should work well in the pick and roll with Robinson.

I agree his original idea made more sense, largely because I don't see why Toronto gives up on DeRozen.

However, I'd assume the Cs would be more interested in Evans than Lowry. We knew that Ainge has had interest in both Evans and Cousins, and as I note above Evans could thrive next to an off guard who can defend 1s like Bradley.

I guess my point is: if the Cs are going to go down the road of trading Rondo in a deal for Cousins, wouldn't the more likely 'who says no' scenario look more like the below?

Cs trade to SAC: Rondo, Bass and Wilcox
Cs receive from SAC: Evans, Cousins, Garcia and J. Johnson

You may be right.  And I think that would be pretty tough for Danny to turn down, and adding in Toronto does complicate things.  I just think that is a big risk to basically trade your best player for the core of a terrible team. 

It really comes down to what Danny thinks of Evans at this point, and whether he is still as high on him...particularly playing next to Bradley. 
Title: Re: 3 Way Deal Bos/Tor/Sac (Simmons Idea)
Post by: TripleOT on January 03, 2013, 11:35:35 AM
Cousins with four straight double doubles since returning from suspension, with his team going 3-1.  His stats-- 16.5/12.5/5.8.

Someone's going to have to blow away the Kings to get him this season.  A pu pu platter of Green and Lee and a pick isn't going to do it. 
Title: Re: 3 Way Deal Bos/Tor/Sac (Simmons Idea)
Post by: ssspence on January 03, 2013, 11:45:54 AM
I liked Simmons' original deal better

http://espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=bl5ydks

I do think Toronto would be the main holdup in the deal, but with Lowry underperforming, Thomas continuing to look solid, and Evans still having the tantalizing star potential, I could see the value making sense...although it would come down to the personal preference of Toronto's GM.

For the C's, I think this is the kind of deal (short of a deal for a superstar like Paul) where you could give up Rondo.  You get a quality youngish PG in return, who may be a step below, but is still decent in Lowry, and you get a flier on a potential star with questionmarks in Cousins.

It also would be the type of deal Sacramento would likely jump at.  Rondo gives them a chance to start to try to win, and make better use of the offensive players they still have.  He also thrives in the up-tempo game they really want to play, and should work well in the pick and roll with Robinson.

I agree his original idea made more sense, largely because I don't see why Toronto gives up on DeRozen.

However, I'd assume the Cs would be more interested in Evans than Lowry. We knew that Ainge has had interest in both Evans and Cousins, and as I note above Evans could thrive next to an off guard who can defend 1s like Bradley.

I guess my point is: if the Cs are going to go down the road of trading Rondo in a deal for Cousins, wouldn't the more likely 'who says no' scenario look more like the below?

Cs trade to SAC: Rondo, Bass and Wilcox
Cs receive from SAC: Evans, Cousins, Garcia and J. Johnson

You may be right.  And I think that would be pretty tough for Danny to turn down, and adding in Toronto does complicate things.  I just think that is a big risk to basically trade your best player for the core of a terrible team. 

It really comes down to what Danny thinks of Evans at this point, and whether he is still as high on him...particularly playing next to Bradley.

Right. Probably not the best plan. But one that to me is more likely than either Simmons' suggestion or the one from the OP.

I do think that in the case I suggest neither team hangs up the phone all that fast.

I'm a believer that the Cs will continue to look for ways to move Rondo for what they see as a preferable overall package, no matter how long he's here.

And despite David Aldridge's very logical point about the Kings hesitance to add salary, I also think this would be a very tough package to turn down....

"NBA Team for Sale: Totally re-locatable team with Flashy Franchise PG on very reasonable deal for 2 more seasons, and 3 recent lottery picks to boot"
 
Title: Re: 3 Way Deal Bos/Tor/Sac (Simmons Idea)
Post by: LarBrd33 on January 03, 2013, 01:25:09 PM
I think I'd rather have Calderon than Lowry.  Calderon is one of the best shooters in the league and would probably average just as many assists as Rondo in this system.
Title: Re: 3 Way Deal Bos/Tor/Sac (Simmons Idea)
Post by: Moranis on January 03, 2013, 01:54:12 PM
How about this trade?

Boston - Cousins, Bargnani, Calderon, Garcia, Outlaw
Toronto - Evans, Bass, Lee, Fredette, Bos 2013 1st (top 3 prot.)
Sacramento - Rondo, Green, Melo

Not sure any team does this, but I think I'd like Boston's team after that

Guards - Calderon, Bradley, Terry, Barbosa
Wings - Pierce, Garcia, Outlaw
Big Guys - Cousins, Garnett, Bargnani (with Sully, Collins, and Wilcox)

Trade would really beef up the interior and provide a great offensive PG in Calderon (though the backcourt would be a bit small and not exactly awesome defensively)
Title: Re: 3 Way Deal Bos/Tor/Sac (Simmons Idea)
Post by: Chris on January 03, 2013, 01:57:44 PM
How about this trade?

Boston - Cousins, Bargnani, Calderon, Garcia, Outlaw
Toronto - Evans, Bass, Lee, Fredette, Bos 2013 1st (top 3 prot.)
Sacramento - Rondo, Green, Melo

Not sure any team does this, but I think I'd like Boston's team after that

Guards - Calderon, Bradley, Terry, Barbosa
Wings - Pierce, Garcia, Outlaw
Big Guys - Cousins, Garnett, Bargnani (with Sully, Collins, and Wilcox)

Trade would really beef up the interior and provide a great offensive PG in Calderon (though the backcourt would be a bit small and not exactly awesome defensively)

My problem with this deal is that I think it would leave the team still searching for an identity.  Cousins and Garcia fit with their old, tough, identity, while the other guys really need to play an up pace, offensive game. 

I really hope if Danny does make a trade this year, it is to solidify the teams identity, not to confuse it more. 
Title: Re: 3 Way Deal Bos/Tor/Sac (Simmons Idea)
Post by: StartOrien on January 07, 2013, 07:25:11 PM
What do you guys think of the following:

Quote
Boston Receives: Demarcus Cousins, Kyle Lowry, Chuck Hayes

Sacramento Receives: Rajon Rondo, Courtney Lee, Jason Collins

Toronto Receives: Tyreke Evans, Isiah Thomas, Fab Melo, Protected Boston 1st
Title: Re: 3 Way Deal Bos/Tor/Sac (Simmons Idea)
Post by: Accension13 on January 07, 2013, 08:36:35 PM
What do you guys think of the following:

Quote
Boston Receives: Demarcus Cousins, Kyle Lowry, Chuck Hayes

Sacramento Receives: Rajon Rondo, Courtney Lee, Jason Collins

Toronto Receives: Tyreke Evans, Isiah Thomas, Fab Melo, Protected Boston 1st

A good trade for all involved,  but if c's give up Rondo they should go all in to get Evans too. Maybe throw sully in to sweeten deal fit the Kings
Title: Re: 3 Way Deal Bos/Tor/Sac (Simmons Idea)
Post by: StartOrien on January 07, 2013, 08:59:32 PM
Dont like rekes fit next to dmc and kg
Title: Re: 3 Way Deal Bos/Tor/Sac (Simmons Idea)
Post by: StartOrien on January 07, 2013, 10:04:30 PM
Bump
Title: Re: 3 Way Deal Bos/Tor/Sac (Simmons Idea)
Post by: StartOrien on January 07, 2013, 10:59:39 PM
One more try
Title: Re: 3 Way Deal Bos/Tor/Sac (Simmons Idea)
Post by: D Dub on January 07, 2013, 11:25:21 PM
Seems like a fair deal from a GM perspective but think itll be tough getting folks behind trading Rondo.   That guy is too core, heart and soul of our squad