CelticsStrong
Celtics Basketball => Celtics Talk => Topic started by: diddybop on January 01, 2013, 12:58:01 PM
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There was a great piece written by Gary Washburn in the Globe, about how there seems to be a divide in the Celtics locker room:
http://www.boston.com/sports/2013/01/01/celtics-need-change/oH1GoguR0OiuTdNEJ39g1I/story.html (http://www.boston.com/sports/2013/01/01/celtics-need-change/oH1GoguR0OiuTdNEJ39g1I/story.html)
Washburn writes: "The Celtics are not on the same page. Some players continue to laugh and joke after losses, while others are furious. Some players expect the improvement will come and don’t appear worried about losses piling up, while others are very concerned."
Seems like some of the guys are just 'riding the wave of being a Celtic.' The piece doesn't mention any names, but we can come up with our own conclusions. This is somewhat troubling, and makes me wonder if a major shakeup is necessary to get this team on the same page.
I don't know who is taking the losses lightly, and joking around in the locker room, but that probably doesn't sit well with PP, KG and Rondo. Maybe it's Green, Lee, or whoever. There have been many threads about needing change, but I think this article really hammers that point home, because if the loses keep coming, it could turn into a pretty nasty locker room. Nobody likes losing obviously, but I think it really p---es off the old guard (PP, KG, RR) when guys are all jokes afterwards.
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Interesting and worrisome.
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The interesting part of the article is the divide between perception of Pierce vs. KG. Pierce is ever the optimist. But I think KG is the HONEST one of the two. KG wears his heart on his sleeve, and I've always felt that he was the more transparent of any Celtics player in this era. I think Pierce just WANTS to believe it will all turn around - why? - because it has in the past. KG doesn't think so. I tend to agree with him - there's something he's not seeing this year that Pierce isn't speaking of: HEART.
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I don't know who is taking the losses lightly
Jeff Green is the first name that comes to mind. Maybe Bass. Barbosa.
Those are my guesses.
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Interesting thought about Pierce vs KG.
If I had to guess I'd say Rondo, KG, Pierce are p---ed.
Lee, Green, Terry, Bass are more laid back and joking.
While Sully, Wilcox, and Collins are just getting out of the way.
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Players cant joke and laugh after a loss about other things in their life? please...now if theyre laughing and joking about the actual loss then its a problem
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So guys react differently to losses? Shocker. Guys react differently to different things. That doesn't mean there's a "locker room divide".
Washburn is probably the least credible beat writer in recent memory. Until there are actual reports of chemistry problems -- rather than Washburn reading the tea leaves because some guys are smiling and some guys are angry -- I think this is a non-story.
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That's why Kenyon Martin makes so much sense. While he might have his personality issues, the fact that he cares, will play hard, and will demand the same from his teammates can't be questioned.
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So guys react differently to losses? Shocker. Guys react differently to different things. That doesn't mean there's a "locker room divide".
Washburn is probably the least credible beat writer in recent memory. Until there are actual reports of chemistry problems -- rather than Washburn reading the tea leaves because some guys are smiling and some guys are angry -- I think this is a non-story.
I recognize that you're ever-the-optimist here, but what do you make of KG's comments? He doesn't see this the way Pierce does, and if you really look at KG's comments, there's a sense of fearful-urgency in his voice. That seems to line up with Washburn's article that you've discredited.
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That's why Kenyon Martin makes so much sense. While he might have his personality issues, the fact that he cares, will play hard, and will demand the same from his teammates can't be questioned.
Eh...I dont think Kenyon Martin cares more then our players or that he wouldnt be in a locker room laughing about something after a loss....I think thats exactly who he is actually.
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So guys react differently to losses? Shocker. Guys react differently to different things. That doesn't mean there's a "locker room divide".
Washburn is probably the least credible beat writer in recent memory. Until there are actual reports of chemistry problems -- rather than Washburn reading the tea leaves because some guys are smiling and some guys are angry -- I think this is a non-story.
Well said.
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That's why Kenyon Martin makes so much sense. While he might have his personality issues, the fact that he cares, will play hard, and will demand the same from his teammates can't be questioned.
Eh...I dont think Kenyon Martin cares more then our players or that he wouldnt be in a locker room laughing about something after a loss....I think thats exactly who he is actually.
Why do you think that?
Kenyon has always seemed to me as someone who is greatly committed to winning. Many of the problems he has had with coaches and teammates is when he didn't think they cared enough or weren't doing their job up to par. Winning was always central to his thinking.
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That's why Kenyon Martin makes so much sense. While he might have his personality issues, the fact that he cares, will play hard, and will demand the same from his teammates can't be questioned.
Eh...I dont think Kenyon Martin cares more then our players or that he wouldnt be in a locker room laughing about something after a loss....I think thats exactly who he is actually.
Why do you think that?
Kenyon has always seemed to me as someone who is greatly committed to winning. Many of the problems he has had with coaches and teammates is when he didn't think they cared enough or weren't doing their job up to par. Winning was always central to his thinking.
I think of those nuggets teams he was on with carmelo and Iverson and saw someone who fit in quite perfectly with not really caring...granted through the majority of his career you have a point although I think it's a little overstated, I don't see him caring more than the guys we have
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Just read the article, reads like a load of crap, much made about nothing.
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Wasn't it Gary Washburn that first reported last year Ray Allen's unhappiness after losing his starting job and almost being traded for OJ Mayo?
Wasn't there absolutely no quotes from Allen, just what most people considered garbage speculation(and yes, I was one of those people) on Washburn's part?
Wasn't Washburn proven to be right after Ray Allen left for Miami and all that stuff came out from Doc, Danny and some others?
Let's not be so fast to dismiss Washburn again as the last time he did this, he was right.
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Wasn't it Gary Washburn that first reported last year Ray Allen's unhappiness after losing his starting job and almost being traded for OJ Mayo?
Wasn't there absolutely no quotes from Allen, just what most people considered garbage speculation(and yes, I was one of those people) on Washburn's part?
Wasn't Washburn proven to be right after Ray Allen left for Miami and all that stuff came out from Doc, Danny and some others?
Let's not be so fast to dismiss Washburn again as the last time he did this, he was right.
Fair enough, but come on. This is a non-story.
Just because some guys laugh and joke after a loss, that's supposed to mean they don't care about it and aren't worried about how the team is playing? I don't care if Washburn is the best in the business, he's not reading anybody's mind. That could just be their way of dealing. Obviously KG is going to be furious after losing, that's how he's built. I don't think we should be worried because everybody isn't taking his lead on that.
And I wouldn't read so much into Pierce's confidence. Of course he thinks we're going to go on a run, I wouldn't mistake that for complacency.
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I'm not even going to blame Washburn. He didn't title his piece; "Divide in the Locker Room."
There's nothing in that article other than reporting that this is a frustrated team. Surprise! We weren't going to figure that one out without you, Gary.
We'll probably get a whole season's worth of speculations over the sources of "the splintered locker room" out of this bit of non-news, though.
That's how it works. Who's to blame? Who's the bad seed?
Nonsense.
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Wasn't it Gary Washburn that first reported last year Ray Allen's unhappiness after losing his starting job and almost being traded for OJ Mayo?
Wasn't there absolutely no quotes from Allen, just what most people considered garbage speculation(and yes, I was one of those people) on Washburn's part?
Wasn't Washburn proven to be right after Ray Allen left for Miami and all that stuff came out from Doc, Danny and some others?
Let's not be so fast to dismiss Washburn again as the last time he did this, he was right.
Fair enough, but come on. This is a non-story.
Just because some guys laugh and joke after a loss, that's supposed to mean they don't care about it and aren't worried about how the team is playing? I don't care if Washburn is the best in the business, he's not reading anybody's mind. That could just be their way of dealing. Obviously KG is going to be furious after losing, that's how he's built. I don't think we should be worried because everybody isn't taking his lead on that.
And I wouldn't read so much into Pierce's confidence. Of course he thinks we're going to go on a run, I wouldn't mistake that for complacency.
I tend to agree with you mgent. I thought Washburn's article last year looked like an op-ed and said as much. But he obviously knew stuff going on behind the scenes and didn't have permission to quote anyone.
Maybe the same thing is happening now. Maybe he is just speculating, which is what I think. But I am not 100% sure anymore after how he was the first to report Ray's discontent last year and it looked like wild speculation then.
If there's a major trade where some newer players leave, maybe we will have to revisit Washburn's reporting as more than just speculation.
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til i heard bout players scrappin dis aint a story man. different personalities react different to losses im sure Jeff Green was one of da guys who was laughin at losses lookin at his twitter account he's a laid back type of dude like dat
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If youre laughing and joking and you've done your job. Fine. But if Youre laughing and joking and not doing your job. Hit the road!
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Wasn't it Gary Washburn that first reported last year Ray Allen's unhappiness after losing his starting job and almost being traded for OJ Mayo?
Wasn't there absolutely no quotes from Allen, just what most people considered garbage speculation(and yes, I was one of those people) on Washburn's part?
Wasn't Washburn proven to be right after Ray Allen left for Miami and all that stuff came out from Doc, Danny and some others?
Let's not be so fast to dismiss Washburn again as the last time he did this, he was right.
Fair enough, but come on. This is a non-story.
Just because some guys laugh and joke after a loss, that's supposed to mean they don't care about it and aren't worried about how the team is playing? I don't care if Washburn is the best in the business, he's not reading anybody's mind. That could just be their way of dealing. Obviously KG is going to be furious after losing, that's how he's built. I don't think we should be worried because everybody isn't taking his lead on that.
And I wouldn't read so much into Pierce's confidence. Of course he thinks we're going to go on a run, I wouldn't mistake that for complacency.
I tend to agree with you mgent. I thought Washburn's article last year looked like an op-ed and said as much. But he obviously knew stuff going on behind the scenes and didn't have permission to quote anyone.
Maybe the same thing is happening now. Maybe he is just speculating, which is what I think. But I am not 100% sure anymore after how he was the first to report Ray's discontent last year and it looked like wild speculation then.
If there's a major trade where some newer players leave, maybe we will have to revisit Washburn's reporting as more than just speculation.
Washburn has been pretty spot on about his insight into the team imo. I think he does have a relationship with the team where he knows what's going on but can't flat out quote players or coaches or make precise accusations. As you said, he alluded to the Ray Allen issues last year, and he was right. Jackie MacMullen said everyone knew about the Ray Allen issues for a long time. I think he's trying to let us know subtly that KG and some of the vets are not at all happy with the attitudes of some of the new guys on the team. KG had made similar statements over a month ago too, and things apparently got worse since then.
We know KG, Paul and Rondo are the type of players who give everything to win, and take their goal of wining a title extremely seriously. The question is, which guys are not seriously dedicated to winning? I would think Terry is, considering he's a vet who won a ring on Dallas, but I'm having my doubts now about him, the way he's played defense so far. I think Lee is very dedicated. Bass and Green imo look like they are just happy to be in the NBA and getting paid. Sullinger is legit, and dedicated, he's just a rookie though.
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So trade Bass and Green they ought to be able to get something for those two.
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Wasn't it Gary Washburn that first reported last year Ray Allen's unhappiness after losing his starting job and almost being traded for OJ Mayo?
Wasn't there absolutely no quotes from Allen, just what most people considered garbage speculation(and yes, I was one of those people) on Washburn's part?
Wasn't Washburn proven to be right after Ray Allen left for Miami and all that stuff came out from Doc, Danny and some others?
Let's not be so fast to dismiss Washburn again as the last time he did this, he was right.
Fair enough, but come on. This is a non-story.
Just because some guys laugh and joke after a loss, that's supposed to mean they don't care about it and aren't worried about how the team is playing? I don't care if Washburn is the best in the business, he's not reading anybody's mind. That could just be their way of dealing. Obviously KG is going to be furious after losing, that's how he's built. I don't think we should be worried because everybody isn't taking his lead on that.
And I wouldn't read so much into Pierce's confidence. Of course he thinks we're going to go on a run, I wouldn't mistake that for complacency.
I tend to agree with you mgent. I thought Washburn's article last year looked like an op-ed and said as much. But he obviously knew stuff going on behind the scenes and didn't have permission to quote anyone.
Maybe the same thing is happening now. Maybe he is just speculating, which is what I think. But I am not 100% sure anymore after how he was the first to report Ray's discontent last year and it looked like wild speculation then.
If there's a major trade where some newer players leave, maybe we will have to revisit Washburn's reporting as more than just speculation.
Bottom line here: If there is a trade it's not going to have anything to do with players laughing and joking after losses.
I was never contesting, or even saying anything about Washburn's reporting. He's saying the team needs a change, and it's at a point in time where a trade is very likely, or at least much more likely than Ray leaving by free agency while KG stayed. Not sure I see the comparison. And I wouldn't really refer his evaluation of the locker room status as speculation. I'm sure the players make their emotions abundantly clear.
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Wasn't it Gary Washburn that first reported last year Ray Allen's unhappiness after losing his starting job and almost being traded for OJ Mayo?
Wasn't there absolutely no quotes from Allen, just what most people considered garbage speculation(and yes, I was one of those people) on Washburn's part?
Wasn't Washburn proven to be right after Ray Allen left for Miami and all that stuff came out from Doc, Danny and some others?
Let's not be so fast to dismiss Washburn again as the last time he did this, he was right.
Fair enough, but come on. This is a non-story.
Just because some guys laugh and joke after a loss, that's supposed to mean they don't care about it and aren't worried about how the team is playing? I don't care if Washburn is the best in the business, he's not reading anybody's mind. That could just be their way of dealing. Obviously KG is going to be furious after losing, that's how he's built. I don't think we should be worried because everybody isn't taking his lead on that.
And I wouldn't read so much into Pierce's confidence. Of course he thinks we're going to go on a run, I wouldn't mistake that for complacency.
I tend to agree with you mgent. I thought Washburn's article last year looked like an op-ed and said as much. But he obviously knew stuff going on behind the scenes and didn't have permission to quote anyone.
Maybe the same thing is happening now. Maybe he is just speculating, which is what I think. But I am not 100% sure anymore after how he was the first to report Ray's discontent last year and it looked like wild speculation then.
If there's a major trade where some newer players leave, maybe we will have to revisit Washburn's reporting as more than just speculation.
Bottom line here: If there is a trade it's not going to have anything to do with players laughing and joking after losses.
I was never contesting, or even saying anything about Washburn's reporting. He's saying the team needs a change, and it's at a point in time where a trade is very likely, or at least much more likely than Ray leaving by free agency while KG stayed. Not sure I see the comparison. And I wouldn't really refer his evaluation of the locker room status as speculation. I'm sure the players make their emotions abundantly clear.
I think the laughing and joking after losses is just an example and a subte way of saying some players are just not dedicated to winning like KG, Paul and Rondo are. If that's the case, I believe a guy like KG, giving his all to compete and win one more ring before he retires, would be extremely frustrated when they lose because some players are not really concerned about missing defensive rotations or fighting to get rebounds, loose balls, and shots in the paint instead of jacking up jumpers.
As for players making their emotions clear, the celtics have had a code all throughout the Doc Rivers-Danny Ainge era that internal conflicts stay private, and whatever issues players and coaches have are not discussed publicly.
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This kind of divide wouldn't suprise me. I remember either Doc or KG saying earlier this year that some guys think they can just put on a Celtic jersey and "be" a Celtic but that truly being a Celtic requires far, far more than that.
That's paraphrased obviously, but this "divide" sounds like just more of the same from what was said earlier this season.
If there are guys in the locker room playing with that attitude, I'd trade them for a fish taco if i had to. I'd rather take it on the chin then deal with that BS.
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I actually read the article and it clearly suggests PP and KG aren't on the same page...as far as their level of concern. Who here wouldn't expect that? I bet PP and Bass are among the guys trying to blow off losses and I highly doubt KG, Rajon and Terry are. Terry is a very serious competitor and and solid locker room guy and there is no way he is taking this lightly THOUGH like Paul he is optimistic by nature.
This all means nothing. Its just as well that some guys freak out and others stay optimistic.
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Wasn't it Gary Washburn that first reported last year Ray Allen's unhappiness after losing his starting job and almost being traded for OJ Mayo?
Wasn't there absolutely no quotes from Allen, just what most people considered garbage speculation(and yes, I was one of those people) on Washburn's part?
Wasn't Washburn proven to be right after Ray Allen left for Miami and all that stuff came out from Doc, Danny and some others?
Let's not be so fast to dismiss Washburn again as the last time he did this, he was right.
Fair enough, but come on. This is a non-story.
Just because some guys laugh and joke after a loss, that's supposed to mean they don't care about it and aren't worried about how the team is playing? I don't care if Washburn is the best in the business, he's not reading anybody's mind. That could just be their way of dealing. Obviously KG is going to be furious after losing, that's how he's built. I don't think we should be worried because everybody isn't taking his lead on that.
And I wouldn't read so much into Pierce's confidence. Of course he thinks we're going to go on a run, I wouldn't mistake that for complacency.
I tend to agree with you mgent. I thought Washburn's article last year looked like an op-ed and said as much. But he obviously knew stuff going on behind the scenes and didn't have permission to quote anyone.
Maybe the same thing is happening now. Maybe he is just speculating, which is what I think. But I am not 100% sure anymore after how he was the first to report Ray's discontent last year and it looked like wild speculation then.
If there's a major trade where some newer players leave, maybe we will have to revisit Washburn's reporting as more than just speculation.
Oh, come on. If a trade happens, you are going to credit Washburn for breaking the story based on that piece?
I've read at least a couple of dozen pieces here on CelticsBlog claiming that a trade of some kind is coming that are more convincing than Gary Washburn's latest.
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Wasn't it Gary Washburn that first reported last year Ray Allen's unhappiness after losing his starting job and almost being traded for OJ Mayo?
Wasn't there absolutely no quotes from Allen, just what most people considered garbage speculation(and yes, I was one of those people) on Washburn's part?
Wasn't Washburn proven to be right after Ray Allen left for Miami and all that stuff came out from Doc, Danny and some others?
Let's not be so fast to dismiss Washburn again as the last time he did this, he was right.
Fair enough, but come on. This is a non-story.
Just because some guys laugh and joke after a loss, that's supposed to mean they don't care about it and aren't worried about how the team is playing? I don't care if Washburn is the best in the business, he's not reading anybody's mind. That could just be their way of dealing. Obviously KG is going to be furious after losing, that's how he's built. I don't think we should be worried because everybody isn't taking his lead on that.
And I wouldn't read so much into Pierce's confidence. Of course he thinks we're going to go on a run, I wouldn't mistake that for complacency.
I tend to agree with you mgent. I thought Washburn's article last year looked like an op-ed and said as much. But he obviously knew stuff going on behind the scenes and didn't have permission to quote anyone.
Maybe the same thing is happening now. Maybe he is just speculating, which is what I think. But I am not 100% sure anymore after how he was the first to report Ray's discontent last year and it looked like wild speculation then.
If there's a major trade where some newer players leave, maybe we will have to revisit Washburn's reporting as more than just speculation.
Oh, come on. If a trade happens, you are going to credit Washburn for breaking the story based on that piece?
I've read at least a couple of dozen pieces here on CelticsBlog claiming that a trade of some kind is coming that are more convincing than Gary Washburn's latest.
I don't think he meant that we should credit Washburn for breaking a trade if it happens. I think he means if a trade does happen, maybe he was right that some players just don't want to compete and there was friction in the locker room. He in no way suggests a trade in the article though.
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Wasn't it Gary Washburn that first reported last year Ray Allen's unhappiness after losing his starting job and almost being traded for OJ Mayo?
Wasn't there absolutely no quotes from Allen, just what most people considered garbage speculation(and yes, I was one of those people) on Washburn's part?
Wasn't Washburn proven to be right after Ray Allen left for Miami and all that stuff came out from Doc, Danny and some others?
Let's not be so fast to dismiss Washburn again as the last time he did this, he was right.
Fair enough, but come on. This is a non-story.
Just because some guys laugh and joke after a loss, that's supposed to mean they don't care about it and aren't worried about how the team is playing? I don't care if Washburn is the best in the business, he's not reading anybody's mind. That could just be their way of dealing. Obviously KG is going to be furious after losing, that's how he's built. I don't think we should be worried because everybody isn't taking his lead on that.
And I wouldn't read so much into Pierce's confidence. Of course he thinks we're going to go on a run, I wouldn't mistake that for complacency.
I tend to agree with you mgent. I thought Washburn's article last year looked like an op-ed and said as much. But he obviously knew stuff going on behind the scenes and didn't have permission to quote anyone.
Maybe the same thing is happening now. Maybe he is just speculating, which is what I think. But I am not 100% sure anymore after how he was the first to report Ray's discontent last year and it looked like wild speculation then.
If there's a major trade where some newer players leave, maybe we will have to revisit Washburn's reporting as more than just speculation.
Oh, come on. If a trade happens, you are going to credit Washburn for breaking the story based on that piece?
I've read at least a couple of dozen pieces here on CelticsBlog claiming that a trade of some kind is coming that are more convincing than Gary Washburn's latest.
I don't think he meant that we should credit Washburn for breaking a trade if it happens. I think he means if a trade does happen, maybe he was right that some players just don't want to compete and there was friction in the locker room. He in no way suggests a trade in the article though.
How do you figure? You mean aside from him talking about how the new players are doing more bad than good, titling the artile "Celtics in need of a change," and outright saying it:
There is growing uncertainty as to whether these Celtics are capable of greatness.
That indifference could divide the locker room and force Ainge to make a major move.
Something has to change, and it’s highly unlikely the current Celtics are capable of a resurgence.
“To win, you’ve got to play well,” Rivers said. “Winning is hard. And I don’t know if all our guys get that yet. You have to play hard to win an NBA game, one game. It’s difficult, and we’re not doing it.”
Rivers can’t teach his players to play hard, that has to come from within.
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I actually read the article and it clearly suggests PP and KG aren't on the same page...as far as their level of concern. Who here wouldn't expect that? I bet PP and Bass are among the guys trying to blow off losses and I highly doubt KG, Rajon and Terry are. Terry is a very serious competitor and and solid locker room guy and there is no way he is taking this lightly THOUGH like Paul he is optimistic by nature.
This all means nothing. Its just as well that some guys freak out and others stay optimistic.
I agree with the first paragraph but not the second. I think that the differing senses of urgency that Pierce ang KG are feeling do mean something, especially to KG.
PP and Rondo feel that they (and the team)can turn it off and on at will. For someone like KG who NEVER turns it off, this can't sit real well.
+1 for the insight of your first paragraph.
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this is why Bradley should help as well. you KNOW he will play hard..
and it seemed like when other players saw how hard this kid was working out there they said "hey we gotta step up our game as well"
by the end of the year, I would actually like to see our starting lineup be Rondo/Bradley/Pierce/Sullinger/KG
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To be honest I seriously doubt Terry is one of the guys with a lack of caring.
Terry has always come across as very passionate about winning - his championship tatoo's and his historical tendancy to come up big in important games but hint at this. So far statistically he's been one of the top 4 players on the team. Doc has commented on how much he has loved Terry's defense, and the fact that he's kept him in the starting lineup (despite him usually being at his best as a 6th man) speaks volumes of Doc's faith in Terry.
He may be struggling with his shot, but I rarely see Terry with an emotionally look on his face when his team is down. After a loss also he always accepts responsiblility and always says the right things.
Likewise Wilcox - he looks serious every time I see him, and whie he may not be the perfect player he plays HARD every time he is on the court.
Same with Sullinger as well. The other night against Golden stat that guys face was red from fury when the team was down and he wasn't getting calls.
Personally I think it's Bass, Barbosa, Lee and possibly Green.
Bass was a pure energy guy last season, but ever since he got a new contact and his starting spot dissapeared it seems his interest has taken a nose dive. He doesn't play as hard, and his body language just suggests he's "just doing his job".
Barbosa has no shortage of comedic youtube videos out there, so wouldn't surprise me if he's joking around after losses.
Lee never looks to me like he's that into a game emotionally. Very much a 'poker face' type of player, a lot like Bass. His whole body language suggests he's just there to do a job and go home.
Take a look at the roster rotations and I think it tells you all you need to know. Doc initially signed Lee with the intention of starting him until Bradley returns, yet Lee has been coming off the bench the majority of the season. Why do you think that is? Doc appreciates guys who play hard and leave it all on the line, and Lee's inconsistent play may not be the only reason for him losing his starting spot.
Bass was a starter all of last season for Boston, and with him as a starter we went all the way to the ECF where we almost knocked off the eventual champions. He was in the starting lineup nmost of this season where he had been relatively ineffective and inconsistent - suddenly he's been riding the pine lately, and Sullinger is playing almost twice as many minutes as Bass is. Add to this Bass' comments earlier in the season suggesting his discomfort with the bench role, and that's about all you need to know.
Green, I'm not so sure. He's a quiet guy with a 'nice guy' persona, and he does sometimes play passive out there...but at the same time if you look at the times times where he flicks the switch he does really get in to the game emotionally. Lately his defense and his rebounding have improved, and those are hustle stats that usually come as a direct result of effort level. I don't think he's got the same level of emotional drive as Rondo, Pierce, Terry and Garnett but I do think he cares about the team and how they go. Especailly after they supported him through his medical issues, he really does seem appreciative of the team.
Personally I feel like Lee and Bass are the most emotionally disconnected right now. At least that's the vibe I get from them.
Possibly Barbosa as well, but Barbosa comes across to me as a guy who DOES care, but who just has a lighthearted way of dealing with things.
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So guys react differently to losses? Shocker. Guys react differently to different things. That doesn't mean there's a "locker room divide".
no sale Roy.
ever played a team sport at even a moderately high level ?
show me a team that jokes around after losses and i'll show you a loser. i saw it myself, first hand in college. my first year, we had guys (seniors) who yucked it up after losses - they graduated and the rest of us got serious the next season and started winning.
you have to have talent, yes - but after that, attitude, effort, togetherness, heart are what seperates good from titles.
if there are guys on this team right now who are not very upset about the current record, they need to go.
we are the Celtics, not the Kings.
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I bet many people in this thread concerned about "division" in the locker room also want to trade for DeMarcus Cousins.
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I think this sentence in the article does point fingers:
"Players such as Lee, Brandon Bass, and Jeff Green have to respond to this adversity because they were depended on to do more than ride the wave of being a Celtic."
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tend to agree with Roy, this seemed like a non-story to me and I passed over it as such
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in related news, there's a divide in the forums! some people joke after losses and some are very serious - there are even conflicting viewpoints!
unidentified sources are worried about the future of our forums and hint at future trade proposal threads if things don't turn around quickly
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Yup...I'm a happy go lucky person , except when it comes to earning a living or being professional .
Laughing and joking about losing in a locker room is "SERIOUS" business , if I'm a coach, owner , GM or another teammate . NBA is professional career, I would think most guys take it seriously especially when they are making the kind of money these guys get paid.
Guys that make fun of a losing in the locker room or on the bench have NO PLACE on a team.
If you are not serious then , leave the team .
If this is true , I hope DA dumps them.
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I think it's a bit unfair to buy into the suggestion that the trouble is all the new guys' fault because they don't care/don't work hard enough. What exactly was the reason a couple of years ago when this team played .500 ball for the last 2/3rds of the season and got beat by some of the worst teams in the league? From what I've seen, the only player on the Celtics exempt from criticism would be KG. Everyone else, including Pierce and Doc, looks like they're part of the problem and not the solution.
Mike
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Yup...I'm a happy go lucky person , except when it comes to earning a living or being professional .
Laughing and joking about losing in a locker room is "SERIOUS" business , if I'm a coach, owner , GM or another teammate . NBA is professional career, I would think most guys take it seriously especially when they are making the kind of money these guys get paid.
Guys that make fun of a losing in the locker room or on the bench have NO PLACE on a team.
If you are not serious then , leave the team .
If this is true , I hope DA dumps them.
Mickael Pietrus had a reputation for joking around (even after losses) and keeping things light. Is he a loser? Paul Pierce has been known to crack jokes in the middle of losing streaks, too. Is the the type of guy we should jettison?
Just because somebody can act light-hearted after a bad day on the job doesn't make them less of a competitor. That's true of athletes, lawyers, construction workers, teachers, etc. Laughing doesn't mean you don't care.
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I really think this team has a real problem, not so much between the new guys and veterans, but between the old guard and the new guard...or Rondo vs. KG and Pierce.
And (unlike with Ray), I don't think this is so much an outwardly hostile thing. I just think there is an issue with philosophy, trust and leadership, that is hard to resolve.
Here is where the issue lies:
1. I think the organization wants to transition this team to being Rondo's team. They want him to take over as the leader, and they want to build the team around him. They went out this summer with that in mind, and tried to surround him with guys who complement him.
2. KG and Pierce are both incredibly respected guys, with very strong personalities, and a natural leadership quality. Even though I think they may have bought into passing the torch to Rondo, I think their shadow is making it difficult for the other guys to look past them, and look to Rondo as their leader (I also think Doc has this problem as well). And I think Rondo has also tended to defer to them when things get tough, which hurts his credibility as a leader.
So, what you have is split leadership. When things are going well, they are fine with Rondo as the leader. However, as soon as things start going wrong, they revert to looking to the old guys (even Rondo does this I think).
I think this lack of consistent leadership leads to a lack of cohesion and chemistry.
And I am not sure I know what the answer is, short of trading a core guy...or Rondo just stepping up even more to really take hold of the leadership.
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Yup...I'm a happy go lucky person , except when it comes to earning a living or being professional .
Laughing and joking about losing in a locker room is "SERIOUS" business , if I'm a coach, owner , GM or another teammate . NBA is professional career, I would think most guys take it seriously especially when they are making the kind of money these guys get paid.
Guys that make fun of a losing in the locker room or on the bench have NO PLACE on a team.
If you are not serious then , leave the team .
If this is true , I hope DA dumps them.
Mickael Pietrus had a reputation for joking around (even after losses) and keeping things light. Is he a loser? Paul Pierce has been known to crack jokes in the middle of losing streaks, too. Is the the type of guy we should jettison?
Just because somebody can act light-hearted after a bad day on the job doesn't make them less of a competitor. That's true of athletes, lawyers, construction workers, teachers, etc. Laughing doesn't mean you don't care.
While I don't think its a huge story it has some merit.
I think there's also a difference between one guy playing the light hearted keeping guys loose role than several guys doing it.
It just doesn't look good no matter how you look at it. I mean what if every player was joking around after losses not seeming worried about losing etc? I mean, I wouldn't be too confident in a team like that
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I don't know who is taking the losses lightly
Jeff Green is the first name that comes to mind. Maybe Bass. Barbosa.
Those are my guesses.
Why exactly is Barbosa a problem? He hasn't been part of the rotation for weeks. Green? Bass? Have you ever seen Jeff Green and Brandon Bass laugh and joke about anything ever? I haven't.
My first guesses would be Paul Pierce and Jason Terry.
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It just doesn't look good no matter how you look at it. I mean what if every player was joking around after losses not seeming worried about losing etc? I mean, I wouldn't be too confident in a team like that
At the same time, a team that gets too upset after losses has a high risk of reaching burnout, especially during the regular season.
There needs to be balance. You can't have knuckleheads on the team like Mark Blount and Ricky Davis. However, it's perfectly consistent to be a hard-working, hard-playing professional without blowing your stack after losses.
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This article aside, I've had major concerns about Jeff Green's attitude throughout the season...to me, he continues to come off as someone who just doesn't care, one of those guys who's capable of All-Star numbers but doesn't show up some nights. That kind of glaring inconsistency from game-to-game is troubling, because he clearly has the talent, but apparently doesn't feel like playing some nights.
One game a few weeks back, they did a pregame interview with him at his locker, and he spent the whole interview with his headphones on, staring straight ahead, no eye contact, generic answers, etc. and seemed bored. You could argue it was pregame and he was trying to focus, but it came off as indifference rather than intensity.
To be clear, I don't think he's a negative or polarizing figure in the locker room, like say a DeMarcus Cousins or a Mark Blount or a Joseph Forte, but they seem to think he could be a leader of this team in the future, and I don't see that at all.
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I don't know who is taking the losses lightly
Jeff Green is the first name that comes to mind. Maybe Bass. Barbosa.
Those are my guesses.
Why exactly is Barbosa a problem? He hasn't been part of the rotation for weeks. Green? Bass? Have you ever seen Jeff Green and Brandon Bass laugh and joke about anything ever? I haven't.
My first guesses would be Paul Pierce and Jason Terry.
Pierce always seems devastated after the losses.
I really don't think this is really the issue with the team tho. I think a lot has to do with Doc talking about how guys don't realize that its hard to win an NBA against anyone in the league. It feels like guys go out there and casually play assuming that its good enough to win. But on any given night if Isiah Thomas or John Salmons plays harder than you, they are certainly good enough to beat you.
To me it feels like Lee, Green, Bass, Terry are just so passive. They aren't trying tonmess up and just kind of blending in. Even tho I wasn't huge fans if them being passive was never an issue for guys like Pietrus, Dooling, Nate, Baby, Sheed, among others. I mean even Sasha and quis weren't that passive.
Bradley isn't passive which should help but yeah to me these guys just haven't figured out how to be consistently good. They either are trying to be overly aggressive with no flow ir they just sit back and swing the ball around.
That's why Bradley will be refreshing and why Barbosa and Wilcox can be so refreshing sometimes.
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Sorry I just can't see guys making millions laughing about losing being an asset to a team. This has the effect of dividing the team , making other guys who care more sore at those who think its funny.
NBA is serious business. Go home and laugh all you want ....if you team plays like dog flop , don't party in my locker room after blowouts.
Dump em Danny
I'm hoping this is all just a rumor or hear say. I really don't see people standing aroundDoc or KG and laughing at a loss.
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To me it feels like Lee, Green, Bass, Terry are just so passive.
People keep saying this but I don't really know what they mean by passive. How are Lee and Bass passive? If Green had the exact same production but was more animated, would he still be passive? And Terry certainly isn't passive, he just sucks on defense.
Again, I think it's a little unfair to place all or most of the blame on the new guys.
Mike
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To me it feels like Lee, Green, Bass, Terry are just so passive.
People keep saying this but I don't really know what they mean by passive. How are Lee and Bass passive? If Green had the exact same production but was more animated, would he still be passive? And Terry certainly isn't passive, he just sucks on defense.
Again, I think it's a little unfair to place all or most of the blame on the new guys.
Mike
By passive I would consider not actively looking for your own shot, not diving to the floor for loose balls, not fighting in the paint for rebounds, not hustling every single play to stay in front of your man. I think Green, Bass, and Lee fit into this description, although Lee has gotten better.
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To me it feels like Lee, Green, Bass, Terry are just so passive.
People keep saying this but I don't really know what they mean by passive. How are Lee and Bass passive? If Green had the exact same production but was more animated, would he still be passive? And Terry certainly isn't passive, he just sucks on defense.
Again, I think it's a little unfair to place all or most of the blame on the new guys.
Mike
By passive I would consider not actively looking for your own shot, not diving to the floor for loose balls, not fighting in the paint for rebounds, not hustling every single play to stay in front of your man. I think Green, Bass, and Lee fit into this description, although Lee has gotten better.
Well, outside of looking for your own shot, I'd say Paul Pierce is about as guilty of the rest of that stuff as Green, Bass or Lee.
Mike
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To me it feels like Lee, Green, Bass, Terry are just so passive.
People keep saying this but I don't really know what they mean by passive. How are Lee and Bass passive? If Green had the exact same production but was more animated, would he still be passive? And Terry certainly isn't passive, he just sucks on defense.
Again, I think it's a little unfair to place all or most of the blame on the new guys.
Mike
By passive I would consider not actively looking for your own shot, not diving to the floor for loose balls, not fighting in the paint for rebounds, not hustling every single play to stay in front of your man. I think Green, Bass, and Lee fit into this description, although Lee has gotten better.
Well, outside of looking for your own shot, I'd say Paul Pierce is about as guilty of the rest of that stuff as Green, Bass or Lee.
Mike
I agree. At times, Rondo is guilty of it too. I would also add yelling at the refs after a non-foul call instead of running back on defense to that list.
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To me it feels like Lee, Green, Bass, Terry are just so passive.
People keep saying this but I don't really know what they mean by passive. How are Lee and Bass passive? If Green had the exact same production but was more animated, would he still be passive? And Terry certainly isn't passive, he just sucks on defense.
Again, I think it's a little unfair to place all or most of the blame on the new guys.
Mike
By passive I would consider not actively looking for your own shot, not diving to the floor for loose balls, not fighting in the paint for rebounds, not hustling every single play to stay in front of your man. I think Green, Bass, and Lee fit into this description, although Lee has gotten better.
Well, outside of looking for your own shot, I'd say Paul Pierce is about as guilty of the rest of that stuff as Green, Bass or Lee.
Mike
It doesn't have to do with their demeanor. Like I said i didn't think Marquis os Sasha we're passive for this team. Neither were JaJuan Johnson or Etuan Moore.
Maybe passive isn't the right word but they just look out of wack/lost confidence. I expected Terry to be flat out good. I thought he would at least be the focal point of the second unit and at times maybe shoot ourselves out of a game but at least consistently running that unit and carrying the load. He's just been bad. Lee looks like he never wants to shoot a corner 3 and will almost always pass up a shot. Bass looks like he's lost confidence in his bread and butter jumper and looks shakes taking that now.
I think Jeff Green has been the least passive actually.
What do u mean blaming the new guys? Bass and Green have been on the team. I praised Barbosa who's new. Sully doesn't really count in my book because being a rookie. I think Pierce has been bad especially of late but he looks to be similar as in the past just dropped off eight now as far as production. He still looks berth comfortable out there even when he plays bad.
Im also putting some of the blame on Doc. He hasn't been putting those guys in the best position to succeed either.
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So guys react differently to losses? Shocker. Guys react differently to different things. That doesn't mean there's a "locker room divide".
Washburn is probably the least credible beat writer in recent memory. Until there are actual reports of chemistry problems -- rather than Washburn reading the tea leaves because some guys are smiling and some guys are angry -- I think this is a non-story.
+1000000
and TP
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So guys react differently to losses? Shocker. Guys react differently to different things. That doesn't mean there's a "locker room divide".
Washburn is probably the least credible beat writer in recent memory. Until there are actual reports of chemistry problems -- rather than Washburn reading the tea leaves because some guys are smiling and some guys are angry -- I think this is a non-story.
I recognize that you're ever-the-optimist here, ...
You are talking about ... Roy?
;D
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So guys react differently to losses? Shocker. Guys react differently to different things. That doesn't mean there's a "locker room divide".
Washburn is probably the least credible beat writer in recent memory. Until there are actual reports of chemistry problems -- rather than Washburn reading the tea leaves because some guys are smiling and some guys are angry -- I think this is a non-story.
While I agree this is not the story, I do think there is a story in there. There are pretty clearly chemistry and leadership issues with this team. But it is something that we need someone like Jackie MacMullen to look into, not a hack like Washburn.
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So guys react differently to losses? Shocker. Guys react differently to different things. That doesn't mean there's a "locker room divide".
Washburn is probably the least credible beat writer in recent memory. Until there are actual reports of chemistry problems -- rather than Washburn reading the tea leaves because some guys are smiling and some guys are angry -- I think this is a non-story.
While I agree this is not the story, I do think there is a story in there. There are pretty clearly chemistry and leadership issues with this team. But it is something that we need someone like Jackie MacMullen to look into, not a hack like Washburn.
I don't know about that. Jackie mac embellishes like crazy in her article as well. She also is good at making non stories stories.
Im sorry but media people in general kind of suck
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As a former daily newspaper reporter, this line of thinking drives me crazy. Media people in general don't suck.
Second, reporters are always under pressure to produce stories. Even more so in this digital era when it's no longer important to be right, but to be first -- even if you are wrong. So, Washburn heard a few things and put a story together that probably has some credence. As has been mentioned earlier, he seems to be the first or one of the first to nail the Ray thing.
While I do not think this is a huge story, clearly there is something here. And, in my opinion, it might be part of the reason the team is playing like crap right now.
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So guys react differently to losses? Shocker. Guys react differently to different things. That doesn't mean there's a "locker room divide".
Washburn is probably the least credible beat writer in recent memory. Until there are actual reports of chemistry problems -- rather than Washburn reading the tea leaves because some guys are smiling and some guys are angry -- I think this is a non-story.
While I agree this is not the story, I do think there is a story in there. There are pretty clearly chemistry and leadership issues with this team. But it is something that we need someone like Jackie MacMullen to look into, not a hack like Washburn.
I don't know about that. Jackie mac embellishes like crazy in her article as well. She also is good at making non stories stories.
Im sorry but media people in general kind of suck
She embellishes, but she tends to find an actual story, rather than just throwing quotes against a wall.
She also has more of a rapport with some of the players, to get deeper into it.
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more often than not, when a talented team in any sport plays like crap, and there are no major injuries, it's likely due to internal conflict between players. Sure, the head coach always gets blamed first and most, but it's almost always the players not working together.
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As a former daily newspaper reporter, this line of thinking drives me crazy. Media people in general don't suck.
Okay, so only 99.9% suck ;)
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As a former daily newspaper reporter, this line of thinking drives me crazy. Media people in general don't suck.
Okay, so only 99.9% suck ;)
TP for you
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I don't know who is taking the losses lightly
Jeff Green is the first name that comes to mind. Maybe Bass. Barbosa.
Those are my guesses.
Why exactly is Barbosa a problem? He hasn't been part of the rotation for weeks. Green? Bass? Have you ever seen Jeff Green and Brandon Bass laugh and joke about anything ever? I haven't.
My first guesses would be Paul Pierce and Jason Terry.
This.
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I don't know who is taking the losses lightly
Jeff Green is the first name that comes to mind. Maybe Bass. Barbosa.
Those are my guesses.
Why exactly is Barbosa a problem? He hasn't been part of the rotation for weeks. Green? Bass? Have you ever seen Jeff Green and Brandon Bass laugh and joke about anything ever? I haven't.
My first guesses would be Paul Pierce and Jason Terry.
The reason those three guys would be the first ones to mind are:
Barbosa has always struck me as a player who seems accepting of losing. A player who is happiness depends most of all on his role offensively. How many touches and shot attempts he is getting. If he is getting them, he's good. If he's not, he's not happy.
To a lesser degree, I think Bass is the same.
As for Jeff Green, I don't think he is a driven player. Lacking in competitive spirit. He's also another player who's happiness is also heavily linked to how involved he feels offensively.
I also thought Chris Wilcox was a great selection by whomever mentioned him. I overlooked him. Wilcox has played for losing teams throughout most of his career and lots of bad (mental and otherwise) habits from all the time he spent on those teams.
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I don't know who is taking the losses lightly
Jeff Green is the first name that comes to mind. Maybe Bass. Barbosa.
Those are my guesses.
Why exactly is Barbosa a problem? He hasn't been part of the rotation for weeks. Green? Bass? Have you ever seen Jeff Green and Brandon Bass laugh and joke about anything ever? I haven't.
My first guesses would be Paul Pierce and Jason Terry.
This.
Sec22? How did I miss that you were back posting again?
Welcome back.