CelticsStrong
Celtics Basketball => Celtics Talk => Topic started by: edwardjkasche on December 30, 2012, 12:14:10 PM
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There hasn't been a more disappointing team this season that hasn't already fired its coach.
Fakers were disappointing, and Mike Brown lost his job.
Nets were disappointing (and ahead of Celtics in the standings), and Avery Johnson lost his job.
When does this become Doc's fault?
I tell you, I hate reading quotes like this (from last night's game): "And at some point, I thought, you've got to penetrate and take it to the basket. They don't have a lot of shot-blocking, and we didn't do that. But it's hard to tell a shooter not to shoot an open shot. So, as a coach, you're kind of stuck."
You're the COACH! Tell the shooter not to shoot. And, if they don't listen, play someone else.
Last night wasn't a game about making more shots. The Celtics lost by 18. The other night they lost by 29.
This is ALL effort and passion and focus.
And, if Doc can't get effort, passion, and focus out of the team, then he doesn't deserve to be coach.
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I tell you, I hate reading quotes like this (from last night's game): "And at some point, I thought, you've got to penetrate and take it to the basket. They don't have a lot of shot-blocking, and we didn't do that. But it's hard to tell a shooter not to shoot an open shot. So, as a coach, you're kind of stuck."
Yeah, I was thinking the same thing at one point during the game when Golden State had David Lee and Carl Landry out there ... but I looked around at who was on the floor for the Celtics and frankly I couldn't see anyone who could get to the rim consistently.
Not with Pierce struggling the way he was. Not a big believer. Terry and Lee don't offer much as dribble drive players. There wasn't much better options elsewhere on the bench either. Jeff Green was the only plausible option but I am not a big believer in him as a scorer either.
They just don't have that dribble penetration threat without Rondo in the lineup.
It was pretty depressing to see such a wonderful opening for Boston to attack the basket but nobody there capable of doing of the job.
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There hasn't been a more disappointing team this season that hasn't already fired its coach.
Fakers were disappointing, and Mike Brown lost his job.
Nets were disappointing (and ahead of Celtics in the standings), and Avery Johnson lost his job.
When does this become Doc's fault?
I tell you, I hate reading quotes like this (from last night's game): "And at some point, I thought, you've got to penetrate and take it to the basket. They don't have a lot of shot-blocking, and we didn't do that. But it's hard to tell a shooter not to shoot an open shot. So, as a coach, you're kind of stuck."
You're the COACH! Tell the shooter not to shoot. And, if they don't listen, play someone else.
Last night wasn't a game about making more shots. The Celtics lost by 18. The other night they lost by 29.
This is ALL effort and passion and focus.
And, if Doc can't get effort, passion, and focus out of the team, then he doesn't deserve to be coach.
We have an entirely new roster from last year. It wasn't going to magically happen overnight. We have faults, for sure. Doc, in my opinion, is struggling a little bit with the rotation. But he is trying out a bunch of guys to see what he has. I think he will settle on a core group soon and then go from there.
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It wasn't going to magically happen overnight.
This excuse has officially expired. The only late signing for Boston was Barbosa, so Doc had the off season, a full training camp, a full pre-season and now 29 games of the regular season with these players. If it takes you that long to get your team all on the same page, you're doing it wrong because even if everything magically clicks and you're playing well at the end of the season, you're at best the 4th or 5th seed and have made yourself a much tougher path through the playoffs.
Mike
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There hasn't been a more disappointing team this season that hasn't already fired its coach.
Fakers were disappointing, and Mike Brown lost his job.
Nets were disappointing (and ahead of Celtics in the standings), and Avery Johnson lost his job.
When does this become Doc's fault?
I tell you, I hate reading quotes like this (from last night's game): "And at some point, I thought, you've got to penetrate and take it to the basket. They don't have a lot of shot-blocking, and we didn't do that. But it's hard to tell a shooter not to shoot an open shot. So, as a coach, you're kind of stuck."
You're the COACH! Tell the shooter not to shoot. And, if they don't listen, play someone else.
Last night wasn't a game about making more shots. The Celtics lost by 18. The other night they lost by 29.
This is ALL effort and passion and focus.
And, if Doc can't get effort, passion, and focus out of the team, then he doesn't deserve to be coach.
Big difference is none of those coaches (fired) has won a championship. None of those coaches has been with their team as long as Doc has. None of them has worked with a terrible group of guys and strings of badlucks and still made something out of nothing (yea, I'm talking about last season) like Doc has done.
Please people, stop the madness. Where is our loyalty? Like Danny said, the guy has earned his stay here no matter how bad things get.
This is thesame coach that has displayed his genius and briliance over the years and considering the core and scrubs he's had to work with, he has done a fantastic job.
So this time our boat is being rocked a little and we're calling for him to get fired. Watching him on the courtside game after game and the way he keeps coaching players on the court, you could tell that he's doing his very best and most important of all, he cares. He's not doing anything he hasn't been doing for the past five years. If anything, he's cut down the defensive plays in half and result to basics just to make things easier on group of guys that seems so unfit and clueless. He's done is job...
My only grip with the guy this season was chasing Darko out of town because I think Darko would've made a big difference. But remember Darko had a wrist injury which would've affected him on the court. But I think he still could've gotten a chance.
Each player has to look in the mirror. They're not doing anything they're suppose to be doing. Outside of KG, Rondo, and Sullinger...everybody else has been a colossal disappointment this season with Paul Pierce, Jason Terry, and Jeff Green topping that list.
As far as I'm concern, this is not Doc's fault. We don't have a legit talented big outside of KG. It's a team full average backup guards and power forwards. We need a trade badly and with Avery back on the 2nd, we should be balling again. But all these Doc's blame is ridiculous to me
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Doc has issues but he's still a top coach in the NBA. No chance we get rid of him but I'm okay with him receiving some criticism.
We way over reached expectations last year. Maybe we don't this year. We still have above average talent. I think when push comes to shove, we can play teams tough.
If not, we go for a lotto pick and try again next year.
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This is thesame coach that has displayed his genius and briliance over the years and considering the core and scrubs he's had to work with, he has done a fantastic job.
Hold it. Everyone's always liked Doc, but NOBODY could have called him a genius or brilliant before he got KG and Ray in Boston. He was a coach with a mediocre record who had guided not one but two teams through historically long losing streaks.
Mike
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This is thesame coach that has displayed his genius and briliance over the years and considering the core and scrubs he's had to work with, he has done a fantastic job.
Hold it. Everyone's always liked Doc, but NOBODY could have called him a genius or brilliant before he got KG and Ray in Boston. He was a coach with a mediocre record who had guided not one but two teams through historically long losing streaks.
Mike
lol, you're on a roll.
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This is thesame coach that has displayed his genius and briliance over the years and considering the core and scrubs he's had to work with, he has done a fantastic job.
Hold it. Everyone's always liked Doc, but NOBODY could have called him a genius or brilliant before he got KG and Ray in Boston. He was a coach with a mediocre record who had guided not one but two teams through historically long losing streaks.
Mike
If that's the only part you chose to focus on. Phil Jackson or Pop wouldn't have been able to do anything with the goup he had
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If Doc were fired, KG and Paul would retire, and Rondo would ask for a trade.
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If Doc were fired, KG and Paul would retire, and Rondo would ask for a trade.
That's the truth, the only truth, and nothing but the truth.
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Sometimes I wonder if the Celtics might have been better off if Doc has retired a few years back and let Thibs take over.
Otherwise, I still think Doc can get this team motivated. I suspect he is still trying to figure out the best rotation to use, while limiting KG's minutes. That isn't an easy task. When Doc settles on a shorter, and more stable rotation (hopefully after a trade), I believe we will see improvement.
Sometimes it is a simple as the players just aren't cutting it. No amount of coaching can fix roster flaws.
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Sometimes I wonder if the Celtics might have been better off if Doc has retired a few years back and let Thibs take over.
Otherwise, I still think Doc can get this team motivated. I suspect he is still trying to figure out the best rotation to use, while limiting KG's minutes. That isn't an easy task. When Doc settles on a shorter, and more stable rotation (hopefully after a trade), I believe we will see improvement.
Sometimes it is a simple as the players just aren't cutting it. No amount of coaching can fix roster flaws.
Let me see if I have this right. Doc has had about six months to figure out how to mold this team and he has not, but you think he will get the team molded within a couple of weeks after a trade?
Oooooooooooooooooooookay!!
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doc has been exposed this season...like him but he's not a great coach like he's been credited with in recent years...Tom thibodeau was the genius behind our finals teams
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doc has been exposed this season...like him but he's not a great coach like he's been credited with in recent years...Tom thibodeau was the genius behind our finals teams
we did quite well the last 2 years without Thibs
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I think Danny sees the position of head coach as a long-term one, rather than having a results-oriented, what-have-you-done-for-me-lately viewpoint. I see Danny viewing Doc a lot the same way that the Pittsburgh Steelers handled Bill Cowher. In the late 90s, a lot of fans were calling for Cowher's head, but the team stuck with him, and went on to win another Super Bowl.
I've been as frustrated with Doc as anybody, but he's good at building relationships with his players, and we know he can reach the mountain top. He's won a championship, and arguably he's gotten his team to overachieve in the playoffs in three of the last four years. Danny was also happy with the way he developed some of the younger guys on the team. For better or for worse, then, Doc is probably here as long as he wants to be.
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I think Danny sees the position of head coach as a long-term one, rather than having a results-oriented, what-have-you-done-for-me-lately viewpoint. I see Danny viewing Doc a lot the same way that the Pittsburgh Steelers handled Bill Cowher. In the late 90s, a lot of fans were calling for Cowher's head, but the team stuck with him, and went on to win another Super Bowl.
I've been as frustrated with Doc as anybody, but he's good at building relationships with his players, and we know he can reach the mountain top. He's won a championship, and arguably he's gotten his team to overachieve in the playoffs in three of the last four years. Danny was also happy with the way he developed some of the younger guys on the team. For better or for worse, then, Doc is probably here as long as he wants to be.
This.
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I think Danny sees the position of head coach as a long-term one, rather than having a results-oriented, what-have-you-done-for-me-lately viewpoint. I see Danny viewing Doc a lot the same way that the Pittsburgh Steelers handled Bill Cowher. In the late 90s, a lot of fans were calling for Cowher's head, but the team stuck with him, and went on to win another Super Bowl.
I've been as frustrated with Doc as anybody, but he's good at building relationships with his players, and we know he can reach the mountain top. He's won a championship, and arguably he's gotten his team to overachieve in the playoffs in three of the last four years. Danny was also happy with the way he developed some of the younger guys on the team. For better or for worse, then, Doc is probably here as long as he wants to be.
I agree with some of this. I don't think we overachieved tho. I think we underachieved. Only one championship? Considering every year since the big 3 came together was a championship or bust year? That's not overachieving.
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is can't watch Jason terry anymore and pierce needs his minutes cut. this is docs problem relying on two lame horses.
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I think Danny sees the position of head coach as a long-term one, rather than having a results-oriented, what-have-you-done-for-me-lately viewpoint. I see Danny viewing Doc a lot the same way that the Pittsburgh Steelers handled Bill Cowher. In the late 90s, a lot of fans were calling for Cowher's head, but the team stuck with him, and went on to win another Super Bowl.
I've been as frustrated with Doc as anybody, but he's good at building relationships with his players, and we know he can reach the mountain top. He's won a championship, and arguably he's gotten his team to overachieve in the playoffs in three of the last four years. Danny was also happy with the way he developed some of the younger guys on the team. For better or for worse, then, Doc is probably here as long as he wants to be.
I agree with some of this. I don't think we overachieved tho. I think we underachieved. Only one championship? Considering every year since the big 3 came together was a championship or bust year? That's not overachieving.
Taking Orlando to 7 games in 2009 with no KG was overachieving.
Reaching the Finals in 2010 -- and leading in the 4th quarter even without Perk in Game 7 -- after finishing 4th in the East was overachieving.
Taking the Heat to 7 games last year in the Eastern Finals was overachieving.
This "championship or bust" talk is silly, and if that's how fans view our team, I guess I feel sorry for them. Sometimes, you have to honestly assess a team's championship hopes, and tip your cap to them for trying, but falling short. Outside of the self-inflicted collapse of the 2011 team, every year this team has left it's heart on the floor.
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Given everything, I thought both '09 & last season were overachieving.
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I've personally been very critical of Doc this season. I think he's a good coach who has done a poor job.
Anyway this thread got me thinking: what about other head coaches around the league who are heading underachieving teams?
Sixers - Even without Bynum, the Sixers have a lot of young, athletic, and talented players on their roster. But somehow they have a worse record than we do. At 14-17, I'd say they're underperforming. Should Doug Collins be fired?
Mavericks - Sure, the Mavs don't have any All-Stars outside of Dirk, who has only recently returned from injury. The Mavs roster has a lot of solid veterans, but they're having many of the same problems the C's have - poor defense, poor rebounding, and overall (seeming) lack of effort and grit. The Mavs are 12-18. Should Rick Carlisle be fired?
Nuggets - Typical George Karl team that doesn't play defense, but I see their roster and I think they should be better than 2 games over .500. Maybe the Nuggets don't qualify as an underachieving team, but they certainly could be better given the quality and depth of their roster. They have been very inconsistent over the season. Should Karl be fired?
I think all three of the coaches listed above are very good coaches, especially Collins and Carlisle. They deserve to be head coaches on their respective teams. And so does Doc.
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I've personally been very critical of Doc this season. I think he's a good coach who has done a poor job.
Anyway this thread got me thinking: what about other head coaches around the league who are heading underachieving teams?
Sixers - Even without Bynum, the Sixers have a lot of young, athletic, and talented players on their roster. But somehow they have a worse record than we do. At 14-17, I'd say they're underperforming. Should Doug Collins be fired?
Mavericks - Sure, the Mavs don't have any All-Stars outside of Dirk, who has only recently returned from injury. The Mavs roster has a lot of solid veterans, but they're having many of the same problems the C's have - poor defense, poor rebounding, and overall (seeming) lack of effort and grit. The Mavs are 12-18. Should Rick Carlisle be fired?
Nuggets - Typical George Karl team that doesn't play defense, but I see their roster and I think they should be better than 2 games over .500. Maybe the Nuggets don't qualify as an underachieving team, but they certainly could be better given the quality and depth of their roster. They have been very inconsistent over the season. Should Karl be fired?
I think all three of the coaches listed above are very good coaches, especially Collins and Carlisle. They deserve to be head coaches on their respective teams. And so does Doc.
I think Doug Collins has done an incredible job keeping his team alive without Andrew Bynum there. That team has no right to close to .500 right now. I think D.Collins is one of the early Coach of the Year candidates for the job he has been doing with Philly this season. Incredible.
I believe the Nuggets have played a very hard schedule to begin the season. I think they had a huge number of road games vs home games. So there W-L isn't really a surprise. They were expected to start slowly but finish strongly. 2 games above .500 is a fine return on a difficult opening to the season.
Dallas are a good solid team (high 40s win wise) with Dirk in the lineup but without him they are firmly a below .500 team. I thought Carlisle did a great job getting them to punch above their weight (12 wins, 15 losses) for as long as he while they were without Dirk. Now they are just trying to get Dirk back in game shape and work him into the team. Dallas is on the right track because of the quality of their coach.
I don't consider any of those teams to be underachieving.
Boston, on the other hand, are really struggling out there.
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I think Danny sees the position of head coach as a long-term one, rather than having a results-oriented, what-have-you-done-for-me-lately viewpoint. I see Danny viewing Doc a lot the same way that the Pittsburgh Steelers handled Bill Cowher. In the late 90s, a lot of fans were calling for Cowher's head, but the team stuck with him, and went on to win another Super Bowl.
I've been as frustrated with Doc as anybody, but he's good at building relationships with his players, and we know he can reach the mountain top. He's won a championship, and arguably he's gotten his team to overachieve in the playoffs in three of the last four years. Danny was also happy with the way he developed some of the younger guys on the team. For better or for worse, then, Doc is probably here as long as he wants to be.
I agree with some of this. I don't think we overachieved tho. I think we underachieved. Only one championship? Considering every year since the big 3 came together was a championship or bust year? That's not overachieving.
Taking Orlando to 7 games in 2009 with no KG was overachieving.
Reaching the Finals in 2010 -- and leading in the 4th quarter even without Perk in Game 7 -- after finishing 4th in the East was overachieving.
Taking the Heat to 7 games last year in the Eastern Finals was overachieving.
This "championship or bust" talk is silly, and if that's how fans view our team, I guess I feel sorry for them. Sometimes, you have to honestly assess a team's championship hopes, and tip your cap to them for trying, but falling short. Outside of the self-inflicted collapse of the 2011 team, every year this team has left it's heart on the floor.
I respectfully disagree.
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And, while some people keep pointing to last year, I believe this team is much more like the self-inflicted collapse team of 2011. As for Doc, he is a good to very good coach who can stay as long as he wants. He is part of the problem this year, but a much bigger problem is the players he has been given to coach.
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I've personally been very critical of Doc this season. I think he's a good coach who has done a poor job.
Anyway this thread got me thinking: what about other head coaches around the league who are heading underachieving teams?
Sixers - Even without Bynum, the Sixers have a lot of young, athletic, and talented players on their roster. But somehow they have a worse record than we do. At 14-17, I'd say they're underperforming. Should Doug Collins be fired?
Mavericks - Sure, the Mavs don't have any All-Stars outside of Dirk, who has only recently returned from injury. The Mavs roster has a lot of solid veterans, but they're having many of the same problems the C's have - poor defense, poor rebounding, and overall (seeming) lack of effort and grit. The Mavs are 12-18. Should Rick Carlisle be fired?
Nuggets - Typical George Karl team that doesn't play defense, but I see their roster and I think they should be better than 2 games over .500. Maybe the Nuggets don't qualify as an underachieving team, but they certainly could be better given the quality and depth of their roster. They have been very inconsistent over the season. Should Karl be fired?
I think all three of the coaches listed above are very good coaches, especially Collins and Carlisle. They deserve to be head coaches on their respective teams. And so does Doc.
I think Doug Collins has done an incredible job keeping his team alive without Andrew Bynum there. That team has no right to close to .500 right now. I think D.Collins is one of the early Coach of the Year candidates for the job he has been doing with Philly this season. Incredible.
I believe the Nuggets have played a very hard schedule to begin the season. I think they had a huge number of road games vs home games. So there W-L isn't really a surprise. They were expected to start slowly but finish strongly. 2 games above .500 is a fine return on a difficult opening to the season.
Dallas are a good solid team (high 40s win wise) with Dirk in the lineup but without him they are firmly a below .500 team. I thought Carlisle did a great job getting them to punch above their weight (12 wins, 15 losses) for as long as he while they were without Dirk. Now they are just trying to get Dirk back in game shape and work him into the team. Dallas is on the right track because of the quality of their coach.
I don't consider any of those teams to be underachieving.
Boston, on the other hand, are really struggling out there.
Philly is 2-8 in their last 10 games. They've had a tough schedule and did manage to beat Memphis, but they've been struggling. They even lost to us back on the 8th ;p. Considering their roster, even without Bynum, I would definitely say that they are underachieving.
Dallas also is 2-8 in their last 10, but they've played the Heat, Grizzlies, Spurs, Thunder, and Nuggets in their last 5 games, so I'll cut them some slack.
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I think Danny sees the position of head coach as a long-term one, rather than having a results-oriented, what-have-you-done-for-me-lately viewpoint. I see Danny viewing Doc a lot the same way that the Pittsburgh Steelers handled Bill Cowher. In the late 90s, a lot of fans were calling for Cowher's head, but the team stuck with him, and went on to win another Super Bowl.
I've been as frustrated with Doc as anybody, but he's good at building relationships with his players, and we know he can reach the mountain top. He's won a championship, and arguably he's gotten his team to overachieve in the playoffs in three of the last four years. Danny was also happy with the way he developed some of the younger guys on the team. For better or for worse, then, Doc is probably here as long as he wants to be.
I agree with some of this. I don't think we overachieved tho. I think we underachieved. Only one championship? Considering every year since the big 3 came together was a championship or bust year? That's not overachieving.
Taking Orlando to 7 games in 2009 with no KG was overachieving.
Reaching the Finals in 2010 -- and leading in the 4th quarter even without Perk in Game 7 -- after finishing 4th in the East was overachieving.
Taking the Heat to 7 games last year in the Eastern Finals was overachieving.
This "championship or bust" talk is silly, and if that's how fans view our team, I guess I feel sorry for them. Sometimes, you have to honestly assess a team's championship hopes, and tip your cap to them for trying, but falling short. Outside of the self-inflicted collapse of the 2011 team, every year this team has left it's heart on the floor.
I agree spot on Roy, yea I'll criticize Doc as with the players they are all at fault and deserve some blame do not want him fired though. As long as KG is here dont think Doc is going anywhere.
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doc has been exposed this season...like him but he's not a great coach like he's been credited with in recent years...Tom thibodeau was the genius behind our finals teams
we did quite well the last 2 years without Thibs
yeah..lose before the finals after mediocre regular seasons(both seasons where thibs teams finished first). losing thibs was rough... an actual coach to go along with docs managing of personalities
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Taking Orlando to 7 games in 2009 with no KG was overachieving.
Reaching the Finals in 2010 -- and leading in the 4th quarter even without Perk in Game 7 -- after finishing 4th in the East was overachieving.
Taking the Heat to 7 games last year in the Eastern Finals was overachieving.
This "championship or bust" talk is silly, and if that's how fans view our team, I guess I feel sorry for them. Sometimes, you have to honestly assess a team's championship hopes, and tip your cap to them for trying, but falling short. Outside of the self-inflicted collapse of the 2011 team, every year this team has left it's heart on the floor.
(http://www.watchfreeks.com/gallery/611/611_140927_450000000.jpg)
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It seems as though Doc has lost control of this team. No effort, no passion, it's brutal
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It seems as though Doc has lost control of this team. No effort, no passion, it's brutal
Collins will keep this team together.
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Good call Who. Denver has played the MOST difficult schedule in the entire league per the Sagarin ratings. We had played the 12th ranked schedule going into tonight's game against the 27th ranked team, so our schedule strength will drop.
When was the last time we lost to the 27th ranked team by 22 points?????????????????
We have lost the last 3 by 29, 18, and 22 points. An average of 23 points per loss.
Even Danny simply CANNOT put up with this for much longer. The owners simply will NOT put up with this.
Rondo gave up 27 points to Isaiah Thomas!!!! If he is still hurt, why did he play??????
Make a major trade on January 15th and/or fire Doc.
Smitty77
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BTW, Rondo had the worst +/- on our entire team, with the great PP a very close second, followed by the untradeable Brandon Bass.
Thanks Brandon for making sure we can't unload you on the Kings!!!!!!!!:-(((((((((((((
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I am really really really mad at doc.
and every single person player, AND gm on this team right now.