CelticsStrong
Around the League => Around the NBA => Topic started by: KG Living Legend on December 28, 2012, 12:23:36 AM
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That's what Doris Burke said Pregame last game. That Rondo has the second best shooting percentage among guards in the NBA. Two point mid range that is. Anybody got stats to back up Doris.
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he just made a long 3.
Rondo's 3-pt game is slowly becoming very efficient. He has a very good shot from 3, and its going in.
I personally believe rondo is and will continue to be one of the best shooters in the game.
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That's what Doris Burke said Pregame last game. That Rondo has the second best shooting percentage among guards in the NBA. Two point mid range that is. Anybody got stats to back up Doris.
Last time I saw the stats he was number one. Someone must have jumped in front of him by a few percentage points.
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That's what Doris Burke said Pregame last game. That Rondo has the second best shooting percentage among guards in the NBA. Two point mid range that is. Anybody got stats to back up Doris.
Last time I saw the stats he was number one. Someone must have jumped in front of him by a few percentage points.
according to yahoo, it looks like d-wade is in front of rondo by a mere 0.2%
http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/stats/byposition?pos=PG,SG,G,GF&conference=NBA&year=season_2012&sort=21&qualified=1
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http://www.hoopdata.com/shotstats.aspx?team=%25&type=pg&posi=G&yr=2013&gp2=0&mins=20
I'm guessing this is where Doris got her numbers.
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he is shooting better this season but i still get nervous every time he shoots. i prefer him going to the hoop. he can go by pretty much anyone, has great passing skills, and can finish at the rack. the only problem is he still stinks from the free throw line.
id like him to consistently be able to pull up off the dribble on penetration and hit a 10-15 footer. that one shot would open his game up so much.
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he is shooting better this season but i still get nervous every time he shoots. i prefer him going to the hoop. he can go by pretty much anyone, has great passing skills, and can finish at the rack. the only problem is he still stinks from the free throw line.
id like him to consistently be able to pull up off the dribble on penetration and hit a 10-15 footer. that one shot would open his game up so much.
What really bothers me is the distance Rondo put between himself and that ~10 foot running floater. He was lethal with that his first 3 years or so but then abandoned it in favor of more pass outs and crazy spinning layups off the backboard with no margin for error.
Being known for hitting a shot like that can do more for your game than a short range pull-up because you're not giving the defense that extra time it takes to come to a complete stop (from a full Rondo sprint to boot) and set your shot. That could bring him up to a Tony Parker or even Derrick Rose level scorer all by itself, without ever hitting a jumpshot.
Edit: It could be the difference between a game-winning hand-off from KG in OT and tripping over the floor trying to stop and take a pull-up.
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he is shooting better this season but i still get nervous every time he shoots. i prefer him going to the hoop. he can go by pretty much anyone, has great passing skills, and can finish at the rack. the only problem is he still stinks from the free throw line.
id like him to consistently be able to pull up off the dribble on penetration and hit a 10-15 footer. that one shot would open his game up so much.
He needs to keep shooting. Look at like setting up play action in football. It will draw defenders out and open the paint up for him, and his teammates. And thank God, his shot started falling consistently!
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No question at all Rondo's shooting is better.
But as stated above, he still doesn't attack the rim enough to suit me. He's at his most effective offensively when he does that, either looking to score or creating easy shots.
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Ben Wallace was a career 0.474 FG% shooter. If you never actually watched him play, you would assume he was good shooter. Truth is, he was one of the worst shooters in the history of the NBA. The stat is meaningless.
The same is true to an extent with the FG% stat with Rondo. Rondo is not one of the better shooters in the NBA. Every coach in the NBA knows this and that is why the defensive plan on Rondo is don't cover him, let him shoot.
I think Rondo has improved his shot and hopefully will continue to do that. He is also a very good player in spite of his glaring shooting weakness. But are people really serious in talking about him as if he is one of the better "shooters" in the game (mid range or otherwise)? He may in fact be the worst shooting PG in the game, at least among starters or rotation players.
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Ben Wallace was a career 0.474 FG% shooter. If you never actually watched him play, you would assume he was good shooter. Truth is, he was one of the worst shooters in the history of the NBA. The stat is meaningless.
Sure if you excise all information about his position, positional averages, and from where he took his shots.
Rondo is making a ton of his midrange jump shots. Now shooting percentage of all players is pretty darn noisy, especially jump shooting. He could just be on a 28 game hot streak that will average out.
But to say taking 3 such shots a game, and making over half of them is meaningless is strange. How is he supposed to show he's a "good shooter" other than taking and making those shots?
Unless you define a good shooter as also encompasing the ability to hit 3s or hit shots coming off screens. Rondo doesn't do those things, but neither does KG.
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http://www.hoopdata.com/shotstats.aspx?team=%25&type=pg&posi=G&yr=2013&gp2=0&mins=20
I'm guessing this is where Doris got her numbers.
Geez. Lee and Terry are both shooting 52% from 16-23' with Rondo shooting 57%.
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Ben Wallace was a career 0.474 FG% shooter. If you never actually watched him play, you would assume he was good shooter. Truth is, he was one of the worst shooters in the history of the NBA. The stat is meaningless.
Sure if you excise all information about his position, positional averages, and from where he took his shots.
Rondo is making a ton of his midrange jump shots. Now shooting percentage of all players is pretty darn noisy, especially jump shooting. He could just be on a 28 game hot streak that will average out.
But to say taking 3 such shots a game, and making over half of them is meaningless is strange. How is he supposed to show he's a "good shooter" other than taking and making those shots?
Unless you define a good shooter as also encompasing the ability to hit 3s or hit shots coming off screens. Rondo doesn't do those things, but neither does KG.
Yeah, you gotta love arguments that pull up vague stats out of context.
Another reason why the Wallace example is a silly one is that shooting 47% for a big who is just a garbage man is horrible. Perk could shoot around 60% as a garbage man.
Responding to a discussion of Rondo's shooting from a particular distance on the floor with some vague number seems like someone with an ax to grind and who would prefer to win an argument rather than understand what is actually going on.
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Ben Wallace was a career 0.474 FG% shooter. If you never actually watched him play, you would assume he was good shooter. Truth is, he was one of the worst shooters in the history of the NBA. The stat is meaningless.
The same is true to an extent with the FG% stat with Rondo. Rondo is not one of the better shooters in the NBA. Every coach in the NBA knows this and that is why the defensive plan on Rondo is don't cover him, let him shoot.
I think Rondo has improved his shot and hopefully will continue to do that. He is also a very good player in spite of his glaring shooting weakness. But are people really serious in talking about him as if he is one of the better "shooters" in the game (mid range or otherwise)? He may in fact be the worst shooting PG in the game, at least among starters or rotation players.
http://www.hoopdata.com/shotstats.aspx?team=%25&type=pg&posi=G&yr=2013&gp2=0&mins=20
I'm re-posting this, because it appears that you missed it. Look at his shooting percentage from 16-23 feet. It's the best in the league among guards, and he's taking a healthy number of those mid range jumpers.
There's absolutely no basis for saying he is "the worst shooting PG in the game." By whatever measure you use, that's completely false.
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http://www.hoopdata.com/shotstats.aspx?team=%25&type=pg&posi=G&yr=2013&gp2=0&mins=20
I'm guessing this is where Doris got her numbers.
Geez. Lee and Terry are both shooting 52% from 16-23' with Rondo shooting 57%.
KG is at 50% and Bass is at 46% I believe too.
That's why we shoot so many mid-range jump shots more than anything. We have a lot of players who are really good at it and use it frequently in their games.
We definitely could use more 3 point shots though, among many other things...
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you may be on to something here...it's not just the fg% from 16-23 ft...look at made and attempts:
http://www.hoopdata.com/shotstats.aspx?team=%25&type=pg&posi=G&yr=2013&gp2=0&mins=20
Top 6 FG % 16 - 23 ft:
Rondo / 20 games played / 57.0%
Chris Duhon / 21 games played / 57.0%
Kyle Korver / 16 games played / 55%
Danny Green / 24 games played / 53%
Courtney Lee / 23 games played / 52%
Jason Terry / 23 games played / 52%
Rondo is tied for 1st
Top 5 Made Per Game:
Rip Hamilton / 15 games played / 2.5 made per game
Kyrie Irving / 14 games played / 2.4 made per game
Stephen Curry / 23 games played / 2.4 made per game
Kobe Bryant / 25 games played / 2.0 made per game
Rondo / 20 games played / 2.0 made per game
Rondo is 5th
Top 5 Attempts Per Game:
Rip Hamilton / 15 games played / 5.5 attempts per game
Monta Ellis / 22 games played / 5.3 attempts per game
Stephen Curry / 23 games played / 5.3 attempts per game
Demar Derozen / 25 games played / 4.6 attempts per game
Jrue Holiday / 22 games played / 4.6 attempts per game
Rondo is tied for 22nd with 3.5 attempts ahead of Chris Paul, Jamal Crawford, Deron Williams and James Harden among others
Rondo is taking 2 less shots per game from 16 - 23 ft compared to Rip Hamilton at the top with 5.5 attempts per game
and here's the real kicker...
except for the top 3...rondo is taking at most one less shot per game from 16 -23 ft
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Ben Wallace was a career 0.474 FG% shooter. If you never actually watched him play, you would assume he was good shooter. Truth is, he was one of the worst shooters in the history of the NBA. The stat is meaningless.
The same is true to an extent with the FG% stat with Rondo. Rondo is not one of the better shooters in the NBA. Every coach in the NBA knows this and that is why the defensive plan on Rondo is don't cover him, let him shoot.
I think Rondo has improved his shot and hopefully will continue to do that. He is also a very good player in spite of his glaring shooting weakness. But are people really serious in talking about him as if he is one of the better "shooters" in the game (mid range or otherwise)? He may in fact be the worst shooting PG in the game, at least among starters or rotation players.
http://www.hoopdata.com/shotstats.aspx?team=%25&type=pg&posi=G&yr=2013&gp2=0&mins=20
I'm re-posting this, because it appears that you missed it. Look at his shooting percentage from 16-23 feet. It's the best in the league among guards, and he's taking a healthy number of those mid range jumpers.
There's absolutely no basis for saying he is "the worst shooting PG in the game." By whatever measure you use, that's completely false.
I am going by what I see when I watch the games. Rondo is not a good shooter by NBA PG standards, certainly not in the discussion as the best. His percentage is high because he is generally left with generous space to shoot while his man is sagging to double someone else.
Sometimes stats don't tell the whole story (sometimes they do). In this case, Rondo's shooting percentage stats don't tell the whole story. If he was even a good shooter, other teams would not play off him that way. They would be forced to respect his shot. So I guess it is just me and all of the other NBA coaches that are of the opinion that Rondo isn't a good shooter. Or maybe all of the coaches haven't seen the stats.
I am not trying to be glib but, really, you are getting on me for criticizing Rondo's jump shot? For not falling into the Rondo is a great shooter line?
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This would mean something if we won games on a consistent basis. But his shooting isn't helping when we need it.
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Ben Wallace was a career 0.474 FG% shooter. If you never actually watched him play, you would assume he was good shooter. Truth is, he was one of the worst shooters in the history of the NBA. The stat is meaningless.
The same is true to an extent with the FG% stat with Rondo. Rondo is not one of the better shooters in the NBA. Every coach in the NBA knows this and that is why the defensive plan on Rondo is don't cover him, let him shoot.
I think Rondo has improved his shot and hopefully will continue to do that. He is also a very good player in spite of his glaring shooting weakness. But are people really serious in talking about him as if he is one of the better "shooters" in the game (mid range or otherwise)? He may in fact be the worst shooting PG in the game, at least among starters or rotation players.
http://www.hoopdata.com/shotstats.aspx?team=%25&type=pg&posi=G&yr=2013&gp2=0&mins=20
I'm re-posting this, because it appears that you missed it. Look at his shooting percentage from 16-23 feet. It's the best in the league among guards, and he's taking a healthy number of those mid range jumpers.
There's absolutely no basis for saying he is "the worst shooting PG in the game." By whatever measure you use, that's completely false.
I am going by what I see when I watch the games. Rondo is not a good shooter by NBA PG standards, certainly not in the discussion as the best. His percentage is high because he is generally left with generous space to shoot while his man is sagging to double someone else.
Sometimes stats don't tell the whole story (sometimes they do). In this case, Rondo's shooting percentage stats don't tell the whole story. If he was even a good shooter, other teams would not play off him that way. They would be forced to respect his shot. So I guess it is just me and all of the other NBA coaches that are of the opinion that Rondo isn't a good shooter. Or maybe all of the coaches haven't seen the stats.
I am not trying to be glib but, really, you are getting on me for criticizing Rondo's jump shot? For not falling into the Rondo is a great shooter line?
people that quote un-named nba coaches like this remind me of crotor...
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The percentages mean nothing because Rondo is one of the few guards in the NBA who goes undefended on the perimeter. Rondo probably has 95%+ of those shots uncontested. Kobe would be lucky to have 5% of his uncontested, and the degree of difficulty on his shots are much greater; he might need to make a move to create a shot whereas Rondo is just taking practice jumpers.
Rondo's shot is still inconsistent. He still chucks enough air balls for your to remember and shots that go wide of the rim. Take good shooters like Pierce and Garnett; you see them do that once in a blue moon (excluding desperation shots).
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Actually I don't think most of Rondo's jumpers are much more open then Terry's or Lee's, or even Garnett's.
While Rondo does get his share where he's left wide open, these says he very rarely misses those shots. Aside from this I've seen him hit a LOT of contested jumpers as if he were wide open.
He still remains inconsistent with his three point shot, but from midrange I don't believe thathhis stats are as skewed as you think.
There are very few PG's in this league who I'd consider to be consistently food midrange shooters. Chris Paul? Stephen Curry? Steve Nash? There are maybe a handful (if that) at the position. Think of guys like Russel Westbrook, Jeff Teague, Deron Williams, Derek Rose, Jrue Holiday, Raymond Felton - none of these guys are known for being great midrange shooters, and I think Rondo is as good as any of them right now.
From three its a different story.
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You can't blame Rondo for being open, or being left open. Teams go under picks against Rondo because he's more lethal penetrating than taking the jumper. Teams play off him because he can easily drive by defenders who are crowding him.
The point of the "Rondo is the best percentage mid-range shooting guards" is that a guy who previously couldn't throw the ball into the ocean is now at the top of the league at converting mid-range shots. To me, that's very impressive and encouraging.
Hopefully, teams will stop leaving him open for the jumper, and he can use his penetrating ability more. Rondo converts 2/3s of his shots at the rim.
The mid-range shot is a sucker's bet, anyways. You've really got to hit half of them in order to make the shot worthwhile. Only 10 rotation guys in the entire league hit 50%+ of shots in the 17-23 foot range, of which Rondo's 57% is second to Bosh's 60%.
Rondo's three point percentage is creeping up, too. At 32%, he's almost at an acceptable level (league average is 36%).
The true test of Rondo's shooting improvement will be if he can incorporate a strong pull up game with the wide open makes he's converting.
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You can't blame Rondo for being open, or being left open.
Nobody's blaming him for that. The point is his shots are much easier than the average NBA player; that makes his average higher. But in reality he is not a good shooter. Can you imagine what Ray Allen would shoot from mid range if other teams just let him shoot; 70-80%+?
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Made a post about this a while back with stats. It's outdated, but the link isn't. Take a look :
http://forums.celticsblog.com/index.php?topic=61053.msg1353210#msg1353210 (http://forums.celticsblog.com/index.php?topic=61053.msg1353210#msg1353210)
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/r/rondora01/shooting/2013/ (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/r/rondora01/shooting/2013/)
You can't blame Rondo for being open, or being left open.
Nobody's blaming him for that. The point is his shots are much easier than the average NBA player; that makes his average higher. But in reality he is not a good shooter. Can you imagine what Ray Allen would shoot from mid range if other teams just let him shoot; 70-80%+?
Define "open". Rajon Rondo's defenders do not completely back off of him. During the pick and spot up behind the big man play (where Rondo gets most of his jumper looks), his man goes under the screen, but tries to contest his jumper if he goes up.
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You can't blame Rondo for being open, or being left open.
Nobody's blaming him for that. The point is his shots are much easier than the average NBA player; that makes his average higher. But in reality he is not a good shooter. Can you imagine what Ray Allen would shoot from mid range if other teams just let him shoot; 70-80%+?
I've been watching him shoot open 3s all season so far and what I've see is about 46%. Still very good but let's not think that he's Jesus or anything. Oh wait...
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My argument for the celts new offense where we o nly shoot 16 to 23 foot jump shots. The only players in the NBA to shot 52.0 percent or better as follows.
Courtney Lee
Duhon
Danny Grren
Jason Terry
Rondo 57 Percent
K Irving
And that's it. three out of the best six mid range shooters in the game. That's 53.6 percent average from deep jumps hots. Lets go Doc more deep two's from are great shooters.
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You can't blame Rondo for being open, or being left open.
Nobody's blaming him for that. The point is his shots are much easier than the average NBA player; that makes his average higher. But in reality he is not a good shooter. Can you imagine what Ray Allen would shoot from mid range if other teams just let him shoot; 70-80%+?
You act like "the average NBA player" has to go through the fires of hell to get an open look at the basket. You do have guys like Kobe, Monta, and Irving who can make a reasonable percentage of contested shots, but the vast majority of NBA players aren't expected to score that way. In fact, many of the players labeled "great shooters" only shoot the ball when they're wide open (Novak, Kidd, Allen and Terry at this stage in their careers, and many more).
Now, do I think Rondo is the second-best midrange shooter in the game? Not a chance. I do agree with you that he's a step below the Kobes and Kyries of the league by default. But I still think you're not giving him enough credit. At the very least, Rondo deserves to have the "not a good shooter" label removed from his resume based on the results so far this year.
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You can't blame Rondo for being open, or being left open.
Nobody's blaming him for that. The point is his shots are much easier than the average NBA player; that makes his average higher. But in reality he is not a good shooter. Can you imagine what Ray Allen would shoot from mid range if other teams just let him shoot; 70-80%+?
This is a silly argument. Allen gets left open because he's playing with serious offensive threats. 75% of his jumpers and 97% of his threes are assisted. Do we deride Allen's game because he can't generate his own offense?
You can't just look at one facet of the game and not consider the rest of it. Rondo gets open for two reasons. One, is that teams feel that leaving him open is a better percentage play than covering him tightly (because he's a great driver and a great set up man who plays with two HOF offensive players). Two is because in previous years he wasn't making the mid-range shot.
Rondo's percentages are up. If teams decide to crowd him because of it, his overall shooting percentage will of up further, because he will get to the hoop more often. Rondo's hitting 44% of his jumpers overall, with only a third of those shots assisted, so that tells me his pull up game is coming around. It's not like teams are locking him in the gym by himself to see if he'll hit a few shots. Even in the 16-23 foot range, six out of 10 makes aren't assisted.
For a guy like Rondo, with his quickness and dribbling ability, a strong pull up game is basically defense-proof.
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The percentages mean nothing because Rondo is one of the few guards in the NBA who goes undefended on the perimeter. Rondo probably has 95%+ of those shots uncontested. Kobe would be lucky to have 5% of his uncontested, and the degree of difficulty on his shots are much greater; he might need to make a move to create a shot whereas Rondo is just taking practice jumpers.
Rondo's shot is still inconsistent. He still chucks enough air balls for your to remember and shots that go wide of the rim. Take good shooters like Pierce and Garnett; you see them do that once in a blue moon (excluding desperation shots).
if percentages mean nothing then pay 100% of your income to the government as your share of the taxes...i guess 100% of rondo's shots go undefended...blanket statements like this make me want to contact Webster's Dictionary and give them a new definition of insanity
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You can't blame Rondo for being open, or being left open.
Nobody's blaming him for that. The point is his shots are much easier than the average NBA player; that makes his average higher. But in reality he is not a good shooter. Can you imagine what Ray Allen would shoot from mid range if other teams just let him shoot; 70-80%+?
You act like "the average NBA player" has to go through the fires of hell to get an open look at the basket. You do have guys like Kobe, Monta, and Irving who can make a reasonable percentage of contested shots, but the vast majority of NBA players aren't expected to score that way. In fact, many of the players labeled "great shooters" only shoot the ball when they're wide open (Novak, Kidd, Allen and Terry at this stage in their careers, and many more).
Now, do I think Rondo is the second-best midrange shooter in the game? Not a chance. I do agree with you that he's a step below the Kobes and Kyries of the league by default. But I still think you're not giving him enough credit. At the very least, Rondo deserves to have the "not a good shooter" label removed from his resume based on the results so far this year.
TP. Well put.
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I don't care if defenses are pulling out a folding chair and sitting down in front of Rondo. The following is impressive.
Besides strokin the 16/23 footer well, Rondo is hitting 43.6% of his overall jumpers, better than the following renowned scorers/shooters:
Curry: 40.% on jumpers
Kobe: 41.5% on jumpers
Wade: 37.6% on jumpers
Westbrook: 33.1 on jumpers
Harden: 35.3 on jumpers
Pierce: 38.3 on jumpers
Some of these guys have a higher jump shot eFG% because they stroke the three better than Rondo, but Rondo's 3pt.% is trending upward.
Just for perspective, Durant hits 44.4% of his jumpers, a hair better than Rondo's mark. Looking at Rondo's shooting numbers and where they stack up against some of the league's best scorers and shooters shows how hard Rondo has worked to fix his shot. Hopefully, this early season marksmanship isn't an aberration.
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Whether due to being left open or statistical noise, Rondo is still converting his jumpers at an excellent clip.
If he keeps it up, it's going to result in 1) easy jumpers, or 2) open drives to the basket. Both are good things.
Now, let's get those FTs over 70%.
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If Rondo is making all the jumpers he's left open for, thats the defense's fault. Not a problem with Rondo's jumper as long as he makes them. FT's are still horrid though
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Do we deride Allen's game because he can't generate his own offense?
Actually yes, that is fair criticism of Ray Allen. Great shooter but doesn't have the ability to create offense like some other top NBA players including Rondo.
Like Rondo though, Ray is so good at some aspects of the game that he can make up for weaknesses in other parts of his game. Rondo's biggest weakness is shooting. He just is not a good NBA shooter.
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Do we deride Allen's game because he can't generate his own offense?
Actually yes, that is fair criticism of Ray Allen. Great shooter but doesn't have the ability to create offense like some other top NBA players including Rondo.
Like Rondo though, Ray is so good at some aspects of the game that he can make up for weaknesses in other parts of his game. Rondo's biggest weakness is shooting. He just is not a good NBA shooter.
Are you saying Rondo hasn't been a good NBA shooter this year?