CelticsStrong
Around the League => Transaction Ideas and Rumors => Topic started by: syfy9 on December 25, 2012, 09:53:12 PM
-
Rajon Rondo and (insert Bass + Lee, Sully, etc.) for Kyrie Irving and Anderson Varejao.
I would, but I'm 95% sure the Cavs won't.
-
No, Rondo is a rare talent and a true celtic. Unless you get a Lebron or Durant you don't trade him.
-
Hmmm, yeah probably.
Kyrie is a great shooter and Varajeo is a beast on the boards.
I am also fairly certain Cleveland doesn't trade Irving, however.
-
Nope.
Now normally trading a 26 year old allstar point guard for 20 future allstar point guard is the right thing to do, buttttttttttt I'm a Rondo honk.
What Irving is doing at 20 yrs old is pretty amazing though.
-
I think Franchise > Franchise Player in this case.
If the difference between Rondo and Irving is +10, then adding Varejao would make that value sink down to -100. -105 if you don't like Lee/Bass.
At this point, I wouldn't trade Rondo for Irving straight up, but I Varejao makes it too enticing to refuse.
-
Yep. I'd feel bad about it, I've become a Rondo believer, but this is better for the Celtics long term, and I don't think it even kills our odds this season, although it would have to happen sooner rather than later.
-
I think Franchise > Franchise Player in this case.
If the difference between Rondo and Irving is +10, then adding Varejao would make that value sink down to -100. -105 if you don't like Lee/Bass.
At this point, I wouldn't trade Rondo for Irving straight up, but I Varejao makes it too enticing to refuse.
That's a pretty arbitrary numbering system, and one that I quite disagree with. There is no way that Varejao adds 10 times what Rondo brings over Irving.
- Rondo is much better than Irving, at least at this point in their respective careers.
- I think you are over-valuing Varejao. Especially when we could get someone to do what he does without giving up Rondo. See Omer Asik on the Rockets.
-
I agree that people are overvaluing Irving and Varejao. There is no doubt that they are very good, but their stats are inflated from playing on such a poor team.
-
I agree that people are overvaluing Irving and Varejao. There is no doubt that they are very good, but their stats are inflated from playing on such a poor team.
I think that's true with Varejao to a degree, but not Irving. Varejao is inflated because on a very good team, he shouldn't get more than 10-12 ppg, but he should still be a just below elite rebounder and defender.
It's hard to inflate Irving's value. Uncle Drew is 21 (or is it 22?) years old, and already the 2nd or 3rd best scoring point guardin the league. CP3 is ahead of him, then...?
-
Yes, without hesitation.
-
Drew is a stud and id love him but i dunno, maybe i just have an emotional attachment to rondo because he is my favorite player. 50/50 on it.
Id love to see a Mcgee/Kanter/Favours type come in for the celtics.
-
I think Franchise > Franchise Player in this case.
If the difference between Rondo and Irving is +10, then adding Varejao would make that value sink down to -100. -105 if you don't like Lee/Bass.
At this point, I wouldn't trade Rondo for Irving straight up, but I Varejao makes it too enticing to refuse.
That's a pretty arbitrary numbering system, and one that I quite disagree with. There is no way that Varejao adds 10 times what Rondo brings over Irving.
- Rondo is much better than Irving, at least at this point in their respective careers.
- I think you are over-valuing Varejao. Especially when we could get someone to do what he does without giving up Rondo. See Omer Asik on the Rockets.
I don't mean literally those numbers, but I was making a point that Varejao is a very good player. I'm probably overvaluing him, but there is no question that he is a competent, pure center, something the Celtics would love to get. He is one of, if not the, quickest centers in the NBA and will be great in our defensive system. And also, unlike Asik, he's not a liability on offense, but an asset.
Rondo is not MUCH better than Irving the same way that Rondo is not MUCH better than Derrick Rose.
Rondo is the best point guard in the NBA, but Irving is in that highest echelon along with Chris Paul, etc (at least this season). He's in that elite class this season, and the youngest prodigy of them all. So much potential.
-
I am torn but yes I would do this. The one problem with Kyrie is he has injury concerns.
-
I agree that people are overvaluing Irving and Varejao. There is no doubt that they are very good, but their stats are inflated from playing on such a poor team.
If the Celtics get Varejao, He is going to play hard on defense, on the boards, and will thrive playing off of KG. He'd become a role player that is near perfect for the Celtics system, and wouldn't be expected to do anything more.
Irving would still average 15-20 ppg this season if he was on the Celtics. His assists would escalate; coming out of college, experts were comparing him to Chris Paul for his outstanding court vision. Having Hall of Fame players around him that can make difficult jumpers would help him a lot (sound like somebody?). Think a Rondo that's always in scoring mode.
And all of that at the age of 20. Imagine how he'd be in his prime?
-
Not a
Chance
-
I do it if it's Rondo/Bass/Sully for Irving/Varejao. I think that would be a very tough trade to turn down. Fortunately the Cavs aren't offering and we don't have to part with my favorite 2nd NBA player. Of course Mr. Garnett is #1.
-
if only it was like in my 2k13 game where the celtics traded simply jeff green for drew......
-
It would be something to think about!! But Rondo is top 15 player in this league. Still i may do it
-
Rajon Rondo and (insert Bass + Lee, Sully, etc.) for Kyrie Irving and Anderson Varejao.
I would, but I'm 95% sure the Cavs won't.
Kyrie Irving is not getting traded.
-
I would accept it, but no chance CLE does.
-
Rajon Rondo and (insert Bass + Lee, Sully, etc.) for Kyrie Irving and Anderson Varejao.
in a heartbeat
-
Rondo should be worth both Irving and Varejao by himself. No way I'd throw in more. Irving has an injury history and Sideshow Bob is getting up there in age and isn't much of an offensive player. I'd actually try to finagle a conditional pick too from Cleveland if Irving can't play 2/3 the games in his first year. (not sure if that's allowed though)
-
as long as Irving is willing to sign long term i do it. Hate to see rondo go but have to pull the trigger on that deal. No way Cavs do it
-
Rondo should be worth both Irving and Varejao by himself. No way I'd throw in more. Irving has an injury history and Sideshow Bob is getting up there in age and isn't much of an offensive player. I'd actually try to finagle a conditional pick too from Cleveland if Irving can't play 2/3 the games in his first year. (not sure if that's allowed though)
Irving isn't THAT injury prone. The general consensus is that he is because he got injured in College and missed a lot of the season. He's healthy right now and has way more potential than Rondo. Rondo has had his fair share of injuries, but gambling a top 1 point guard for a top 5 point guard (this season) would make us 6 more seasons competitive theoretically, while giving us no less a chance to win it all this year. Add in Varejao and it should be a no brainer.
Varejao isn't an offensive force, but he is NOT a liability. Just because a player doesn't contribute a lot on offense (which is untrue with Varejao - he gives you hustle points and will convert easy baskets given the chance) doesn't mean he's not a good center. The fact of the matter is that the Celtics need a center that can help them out with interior defense. Varejao is one of the quickest centers in the NBA and will excel with KG, despite being 30. If the Celtics get Varejao, it would be for that reason; not to be a Hakeem caliber low post option or a Karl Malone caliber pick and role player, but someone who'll make our defense elite again.
Rondo isn't worth both Irving and Varejao.
-
Rajon Rondo and (insert Bass + Lee, Sully, etc.) for Kyrie Irving and Anderson Varejao.
I would, but I'm 95% sure the Cavs won't.
I'd do Rondo straight up for Kyrie in a nanosecond. I wouldn't even need Varejao. Totally different players. Rondo is a great passer, but Kyrie is an otherworldly shooter. Future superstar and he's like 7 years younger than Rondo. The fact Kyrie is on his rookie contract still tips the scale heavily in his favor.
NO way the cavs would do it, though. Kyrie already is arguably better than Rondo and he's only 20 years old.
-
What's that saying? "In a cocaine heartbeat"? Yeah, that.
-
Kyrie Irving's being absurdly over-rated around here in my opinion. He's a pretty good scorer, but he doesn't have anywhere near the same game changing speed and athleticism of Rajon Rondo. He's also not a great distributor. To me, he's pretty much a rich man's Brandon Jennings. That's not bad, but it's nowhere near worth trading Rondo for.
-
Kyrie Irving's being absurdly over-rated around here in my opinion. He's a pretty good scorer, but he doesn't have anywhere near the same game changing speed and athleticism of Rajon Rondo. He's also not a great distributor. To me, he's pretty much a rich man's Brandon Jennings. That's not bad, but it's nowhere near worth trading Rondo for.
Agreed
-
Kyrie Irving's being absurdly over-rated around here in my opinion. He's a pretty good scorer, but he doesn't have anywhere near the same game changing speed and athleticism of Rajon Rondo. He's also not a great distributor. To me, he's pretty much a rich man's Brandon Jennings. That's not bad, but it's nowhere near worth trading Rondo for.
A Rondo do for Irving trade would benefit us more in the future than now. I agree that Rondo is above him at the moment, but at only 20 his future looks brighter
-
Kyrie Irving's being absurdly over-rated around here in my opinion. He's a pretty good scorer, but he doesn't have anywhere near the same game changing speed and athleticism of Rajon Rondo. He's also not a great distributor. To me, he's pretty much a rich man's Brandon Jennings. That's not bad, but it's nowhere near worth trading Rondo for.
A Rondo do for Irving trade would benefit us more in the future than now. I agree that Rondo is above him at the moment, but at only 20 his future looks brighter
I'm not sold. I'm not saying he sucks, but I don't think he's necessarily going to be the kind of mega super star that many around here seem to.
-
Probably, but Bob would have to cut his hair.
-
I agree that people are overvaluing Irving and Varejao. There is no doubt that they are very good, but their stats are inflated from playing on such a poor team.
I think that's true with Varejao to a degree, but not Irving. Varejao is inflated because on a very good team, he shouldn't get more than 10-12 ppg, but he should still be a just below elite rebounder and defender.
It's hard to inflate Irving's value. Uncle Drew is 21 (or is it 22?) years old, and already the 2nd or 3rd best scoring point guardin the league. CP3 is ahead of him, then...?
Are you saying CP3 is the best scoring point guard in the game? I think it's pretty clearly Rose and Westbrook 1 and 2. You can make an argument for either Curry or Parker ahead of Irving too. Then Chris Paul, who should really be on the same level as Deron Williams.
-
What's that saying? "In a cocaine heartbeat"? Yeah, that.
Lol, good one. Gonna have to write that one down. :D
-
I agree that people are overvaluing Irving and Varejao. There is no doubt that they are very good, but their stats are inflated from playing on such a poor team.
I think that's true with Varejao to a degree, but not Irving. Varejao is inflated because on a very good team, he shouldn't get more than 10-12 ppg, but he should still be a just below elite rebounder and defender.
It's hard to inflate Irving's value. Uncle Drew is 21 (or is it 22?) years old, and already the 2nd or 3rd best scoring point guardin the league. CP3 is ahead of him, then...?
Are you saying CP3 is the best scoring point guard in the game? I think it's pretty clearly Rose and Westbrook 1 and 2. You can make an argument for either Curry or Parker ahead of Irving too. Then Chris Paul, who should really be on the same level as Deron Williams.
I think they are just higher volume shooters. I'm pretty sure CP3 has a better PPP and ORating than any other pg. He's also really good in the clutch. His raw numbers may not blow you away, but like KG, his sabermetrics numbers are off the chart. He is far and away the best PG in the NBA and clearly and underrated scorer. I'd trust no other PG (maybe G in general... Heck, maybe player) with the game on the line.
But as for the OP, I'd trade Rondo and Lee/Bass for Irving and Varejao without a doubt.
-
Kyrie Irving's being absurdly over-rated around here in my opinion. He's a pretty good scorer, but he doesn't have anywhere near the same game changing speed and athleticism of Rajon Rondo. He's also not a great distributor. To me, he's pretty much a rich man's Brandon Jennings. That's not bad, but it's nowhere near worth trading Rondo for.
A Rondo do for Irving trade would benefit us more in the future than now. I agree that Rondo is above him at the moment, but at only 20 his future looks brighter
I'm not sold. I'm not saying he sucks, but I don't think he's necessarily going to be the kind of mega super star that many around here seem to.
I am convinced that people who aren't sold on Kyrie Irving generally haven't watched him play enough. I think his talent is that undeniable.
He's very close to already being the best offensive guard in basketball, and he's 20 years old. He's got an amazing handle, and is incredibly efficient. For offensive skills, I'm not sure that there are many he is lacking.
(http://www.terezowens.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/614484318.gif)
-
I'd trade pretty much the entire Celtics team for Kyrie Irving and I wouldn't give it a second thought. Kyrie Irving is a superstar. His numbers as a rookie and now in his second year are incredible. He was the best rookie PG since Magic last year when you account for the total package (scoring, passing, rebounding, efficiency, etc.). He will only get better.
-
Kyrie Irving's being absurdly over-rated around here in my opinion. He's a pretty good scorer, but he doesn't have anywhere near the same game changing speed and athleticism of Rajon Rondo. He's also not a great distributor. To me, he's pretty much a rich man's Brandon Jennings. That's not bad, but it's nowhere near worth trading Rondo for.
A Rondo do for Irving trade would benefit us more in the future than now. I agree that Rondo is above him at the moment, but at only 20 his future looks brighter
I'm not sold. I'm not saying he sucks, but I don't think he's necessarily going to be the kind of mega super star that many around here seem to.
I am convinced that people who aren't sold on Kyrie Irving generally haven't watched him play enough. I think his talent is that undeniable.
He's very close to already being the best offensive guard in basketball, and he's 20 years old. He's got an amazing handle, and is incredibly efficient. For offensive skills, I'm not sure that there are many he is lacking.
(http://www.terezowens.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/614484318.gif)
He's an extremely talented scorer. There's no denying that. He's got great handles (as you illustrated), he can shoot the ball, and he can score from anywhere.
He's a good athlete, but he doesn't have elite level NBA explosiveness, speed or athleticism.
He's still young, but his 5.5 APG to 4 T0s per game is a pretty troubling stat. I don't even think that Russell Westbrook has ever had A/TO numbers that bad.
Anyway, I'm not saying that I don't like him as a player, I'm just saying there's no way in heck I'd trade him for Rajon Rondo.
-
Kyrie Irving's being absurdly over-rated around here in my opinion. He's a pretty good scorer, but he doesn't have anywhere near the same game changing speed and athleticism of Rajon Rondo. He's also not a great distributor. To me, he's pretty much a rich man's Brandon Jennings. That's not bad, but it's nowhere near worth trading Rondo for.
A Rondo do for Irving trade would benefit us more in the future than now. I agree that Rondo is above him at the moment, but at only 20 his future looks brighter
I'm not sold. I'm not saying he sucks, but I don't think he's necessarily going to be the kind of mega super star that many around here seem to.
I am convinced that people who aren't sold on Kyrie Irving generally haven't watched him play enough. I think his talent is that undeniable.
He's very close to already being the best offensive guard in basketball, and he's 20 years old. He's got an amazing handle, and is incredibly efficient. For offensive skills, I'm not sure that there are many he is lacking.
(http://www.terezowens.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/614484318.gif)
He's an extremely talented scorer. There's no denying that. He's got great handles (as you illustrated), he can shoot the ball, and he can score from anywhere.
He's a good athlete, but he doesn't have elite level NBA explosiveness, speed or athleticism.
He's still young, but his 5.5 APG to 4 T0s per game is a pretty troubling stat. I don't even think that Russell Westbrook has ever had A/TO numbers that bad.
Anyway, I'm not saying that I don't like him as a player, I'm just saying there's no way in heck I'd trade him for Rajon Rondo.
he is playing with a bunch of role players and scrubs....and he is very young. if he were on the celtics team right now, im sure his assists would go up and his turnovers would go down.
irving >>>> rondo
-
Kyrie Irving's being absurdly over-rated around here in my opinion. He's a pretty good scorer, but he doesn't have anywhere near the same game changing speed and athleticism of Rajon Rondo. He's also not a great distributor. To me, he's pretty much a rich man's Brandon Jennings. That's not bad, but it's nowhere near worth trading Rondo for.
Agreed
A "pretty good scorer"? He is the top scoring point guard in the NBA right now. And this is his second season in a row scoring a lot of points at a 46% fg clip which is awesome for a point guard, especially at that high of a volume.
A rich man's brandon jennings? Well first of all, jennings is a heck of a player. Second of all, Irving shoots at a much higher efficiency than Jennings. Don't just breeze past that, it is a big deal.
Irving has all the skills to run a CP-style pick and roll offense which is exactly what playoff basketball is all about.
I'd be 60-40 on trading Rondo for Irving straight up and it would be a tough choice. I don't think that Irving will be up to Rondo's level come this postseason, which is what leads me to think twice about that deal. But it won't take much longer for Irving to pass him and Varejao included in the trade idea make it absolutely worth it for the present and the future.
No way Cleveland does it though. Irving's ceiling is too high and he has so much all-star level basketball ahead of him. Rondo probably has 4 more elite level years left in him while Kyrie has at least 10. Kyrie's ability to shoot will extend his prime to a further age than Rondo's.
-
Kyrie Irving's being absurdly over-rated around here in my opinion. He's a pretty good scorer, but he doesn't have anywhere near the same game changing speed and athleticism of Rajon Rondo. He's also not a great distributor. To me, he's pretty much a rich man's Brandon Jennings. That's not bad, but it's nowhere near worth trading Rondo for.
Agreed
A "pretty good scorer"? He is the top scoring point guard in the NBA right now. And this is his second season in a row scoring a lot of points at a 46% fg clip which is awesome for a point guard, especially at that high of a volume.
A rich man's brandon jennings? Well first of all, jennings is a heck of a player. Second of all, Irving shoots at a much higher efficiency than Jennings. Don't just breeze past that, it is a big deal.
Irving has all the skills to run a CP-style pick and roll offense which is exactly what playoff basketball is all about.
I'd be 60-40 on trading Rondo for Irving straight up and it would be a tough choice. I don't think that Irving will be up to Rondo's level come this postseason, which is what leads me to think twice about that deal. But it won't take much longer for Irving to pass him and Varejao included in the trade idea make it absolutely worth it for the present and the future.
No way Cleveland does it though. Irving's ceiling is too high and he has so much all-star level basketball ahead of him. Rondo probably has 4 more elite level years left in him while Kyrie has at least 10. Kyrie's ability to shoot will extend his prime to a further age than Rondo's.
tp for saving me the time to respond.
-
I agree that people are overvaluing Irving and Varejao. There is no doubt that they are very good, but their stats are inflated from playing on such a poor team.
I think that's true with Varejao to a degree, but not Irving. Varejao is inflated because on a very good team, he shouldn't get more than 10-12 ppg, but he should still be a just below elite rebounder and defender.
It's hard to inflate Irving's value. Uncle Drew is 21 (or is it 22?) years old, and already the 2nd or 3rd best scoring point guardin the league. CP3 is ahead of him, then...?
Are you saying CP3 is the best scoring point guard in the game? I think it's pretty clearly Rose and Westbrook 1 and 2. You can make an argument for either Curry or Parker ahead of Irving too. Then Chris Paul, who should really be on the same level as Deron Williams.
I think they are just higher volume shooters. I'm pretty sure CP3 has a better PPP and ORating than any other pg. He's also really good in the clutch. His raw numbers may not blow you away, but like KG, his sabermetrics numbers are off the chart. He is far and away the best PG in the NBA and clearly and underrated scorer. I'd trust no other PG (maybe G in general... Heck, maybe player) with the game on the line.
But as for the OP, I'd trade Rondo and Lee/Bass for Irving and Varejao without a doubt.
I guess you could argue that for Westbrook, but he was the 5th leading scorer last year (6th now) whereas Chris Paul spends years around the top 40. Not for Rose though. He gets the ball to the rim like no other in the clutch, and is less likely to pull up for the jump shot than guys like Chris Paul and LeBron. I'd feel just as comfortable with him having the ball with the game on the line as anyone.
Irving and Curry are both significantly better shooters than Chris Paul and the two of them plus Tony Parker are all posting pretty much the same TS% and eFG% as Paul while scoring 3-7 more points and paying a much heavier price for poorer teammates.
-
No, Rondo is a rare talent and a true celtic. Unless you get a Lebron or Durant you don't trade him.
Absurd. I'd say every GM in the Association would take Irving over Rondo.
-
Kyrie Irving's being absurdly over-rated around here in my opinion. He's a pretty good scorer, but he doesn't have anywhere near the same game changing speed and athleticism of Rajon Rondo. He's also not a great distributor. To me, he's pretty much a rich man's Brandon Jennings. That's not bad, but it's nowhere near worth trading Rondo for.
Agreed
A "pretty good scorer"? He is the top scoring point guard in the NBA right now. And this is his second season in a row scoring a lot of points at a 46% fg clip which is awesome for a point guard, especially at that high of a volume.
A rich man's brandon jennings? Well first of all, jennings is a heck of a player. Second of all, Irving shoots at a much higher efficiency than Jennings. Don't just breeze past that, it is a big deal.
Irving has all the skills to run a CP-style pick and roll offense which is exactly what playoff basketball is all about.
I'd be 60-40 on trading Rondo for Irving straight up and it would be a tough choice. I don't think that Irving will be up to Rondo's level come this postseason, which is what leads me to think twice about that deal. But it won't take much longer for Irving to pass him and Varejao included in the trade idea make it absolutely worth it for the present and the future.
No way Cleveland does it though. Irving's ceiling is too high and he has so much all-star level basketball ahead of him. Rondo probably has 4 more elite level years left in him while Kyrie has at least 10. Kyrie's ability to shoot will extend his prime to a further age than Rondo's.
My intention was not to dismiss Brandon Jennings. I agree that he's a very good player. I also agree that Irving is probably better. I just thought he was a reasonable comparison as another small scoring guard.
I think it's very pessimistic to think that Rondo will stop being an elite player as soon as he hits thirty. I'd say he has a good eight years left of being an elite player. I guess that by that standard, I'd have to say that Irving has 14 years left of being an elite player. However, although, Irving is very, very good right now, he hasn't quite reached that elite status yet.
I'll reiterate that my point is not that I don't like Kyrie Irving as a player, but Rajon Rondo is a top ten player in the league today. I'm just not interested in trading him for someone who might someday reach that status.
-
No, Rondo is a rare talent and a true celtic. Unless you get a Lebron or Durant you don't trade him.
Absurd. I'd say every GM in the Association would take Irving over Rondo.
I seriously doubt that's the case. Of course, this argument can go nowhere except "what I say" vs. "what you say" unless one of us has a confirmed report about what all the league's gms have to say about the relative worths of Rondo and Irving.
-
I think it's very pessimistic to think that Rondo will stop being an elite player as soon as he hits thirty. I'd say he has a good eight years left of being an elite player. I guess that by that standard, I'd have to say that Irving has 14 years left of being an elite player. However, although, Irving is very, very good right now, he hasn't quite reached that elite status yet.
I'll reiterate that my point is not that I don't like Kyrie Irving as a player, but Rajon Rondo is a top ten player in the league today. I'm just not interested in trading him for someone who might someday reach that status.
It would be pessimistic if I thought so with no reason to back it. But Rondo's game is based on athleticism. When he hits 30, his athleticism will have begun to regress just like every other NBA superstar in the past has.
The players who are able to extend their primes are players who can change their game and mostly do it with a jumpshot. Look at Kobe, Pierce, Kidd, Billups, etc. All those players had very long primes and it is because when their quickness and speed dwindled, they were still able to beat their man off the dribble because they forced defenders to play them up close and honor their jumper. If Rondo develops a jumper, surely he could extend his prime. But I've seen little evidence of that coming.
We are all witnessing D Wade's game beginning to regress as he has hit age 30, is losing his supreme athleticism and doesn't possess the threat of a deadly jumper. And Rondo's game is not at the level that Wade's once was.
-
I think it's very pessimistic to think that Rondo will stop being an elite player as soon as he hits thirty. I'd say he has a good eight years left of being an elite player. I guess that by that standard, I'd have to say that Irving has 14 years left of being an elite player. However, although, Irving is very, very good right now, he hasn't quite reached that elite status yet.
I'll reiterate that my point is not that I don't like Kyrie Irving as a player, but Rajon Rondo is a top ten player in the league today. I'm just not interested in trading him for someone who might someday reach that status.
It would be pessimistic if I thought so with no reason to back it. But Rondo's game is based on athleticism. When he hits 30, his athleticism will have begun to regress just like every other NBA superstar in the past has.
The players who are able to extend their primes are players who can change their game and mostly do it with a jumpshot. Look at Kobe, Pierce, Kidd, Billups, etc. All those players had very long primes and it is because when their quickness and speed dwindled, they were still able to beat their man off the dribble because they forced defenders to play them up close and honor their jumper. If Rondo develops a jumper, surely he could extend his prime. But I've seen little evidence of that coming.
We are all witnessing D Wade's game beginning to regress as he has hit age 30, is losing his supreme athleticism and doesn't possess the threat of a deadly jumper. And Rondo's game is not at the level that Wade's once was.
Wade's an interesting comparison. I can't think of two players whose games are less alike. What has always made Wade an elite player is his overpowering athleticism and ability to get to the rack and finish. He has, however, never been a very good passer or decision maker. I see Derrick Rose and Russell Westbrook as much better comparisons to Wade.
Rondo's elite level (and I mean historically elite level) passing and vision are skills that won't deteriorate even when he begins to lose a step or two. That will hold him in really good stead as he gets older. Also, his jumper keeps showing steady improvement. He'll probably never be a great shooter, but he's already become much more efficient with the mid range jumper.
And, I'd be willing to bet that at thirty-two to thirty-four, Rondo will still be quicker than 95% of players in the league.
-
This is a very interesting thread. I would do the deal, but it was a close decision for me.
-
No, Rondo is a rare talent and a true celtic. Unless you get a Lebron or Durant you don't trade him.
Absurd. I'd say every GM in the Association would take Irving over Rondo.
I seriously doubt that's the case. Of course, this argument can go nowhere except "what I say" vs. "what you say" unless one of us has a confirmed report about what all the league's gms have to say about the relative worths of Rondo and Irving.
True, though I don't think it's really a stretch of a claim. Certainly the majority would.
Regardless, comparing Rondo to Durant or Lebron in value is a joke. Can't compare Irving to them either.
-
No, Rondo is a rare talent and a true celtic. Unless you get a Lebron or Durant you don't trade him.
Absurd. I'd say every GM in the Association would take Irving over Rondo.
I seriously doubt that's the case. Of course, this argument can go nowhere except "what I say" vs. "what you say" unless one of us has a confirmed report about what all the league's gms have to say about the relative worths of Rondo and Irving.
True, though I don't think it's really a stretch of a claim. Certainly the majority would.
Regardless, comparing Rondo to Durant or Lebron in value is a joke. Can't compare Irving to them either.
Depends on situation team is in.
If you are starting team from scratch maybe most would pick irving. Also its still a pretty small sample size of irving meaning that there would be greater risk taking him at this point.
OJ Mayo and Tyree Evans looked pretty good there rookie year too.
-
No, Rondo is a rare talent and a true celtic. Unless you get a Lebron or Durant you don't trade him.
Absurd. I'd say every GM in the Association would take Irving over Rondo.
I seriously doubt that's the case. Of course, this argument can go nowhere except "what I say" vs. "what you say" unless one of us has a confirmed report about what all the league's gms have to say about the relative worths of Rondo and Irving.
True, though I don't think it's really a stretch of a claim. Certainly the majority would.
Regardless, comparing Rondo to Durant or Lebron in value is a joke. Can't compare Irving to them either.
Depends on situation team is in.
If you are starting team from scratch maybe most would pick irving. Also its still a pretty small sample size of irving meaning that there would be greater risk taking him at this point.
OJ Mayo and Tyree Evans looked pretty good there rookie year too.
Irving's a rookie?
-
No, Rondo is a rare talent and a true celtic. Unless you get a Lebron or Durant you don't trade him.
Absurd. I'd say every GM in the Association would take Irving over Rondo.
I seriously doubt that's the case. Of course, this argument can go nowhere except "what I say" vs. "what you say" unless one of us has a confirmed report about what all the league's gms have to say about the relative worths of Rondo and Irving.
True, though I don't think it's really a stretch of a claim. Certainly the majority would.
Regardless, comparing Rondo to Durant or Lebron in value is a joke. Can't compare Irving to them either.
Depends on situation team is in.
If you are starting team from scratch maybe most would pick irving. Also its still a pretty small sample size of irving meaning that there would be greater risk taking him at this point.
OJ Mayo and Tyree Evans looked pretty good there rookie year too.
First, Irving is better in his second year than he was as a rookie. Second, Mayo and Evans were no where near as good as Irving as a rookie. Not even close. I said it earlier in this thread and will say it again. Kyrie Irving had the best and most complete rookie season of any PG since Magic Johnson, and I don't really think you could add anyone else to the discussion.
-
People don't understand how good he is. Kyrie at age 19 was arguably better than LeBron or Durant as rookie teenagers. Those two shot like 40% as rookies. He's unbelievable... he played like 11 games in College, stepped into the NBA and was already one of the best shooters in the entire league. It's incredible he was able to be that efficient with that supporting cast with that kind of attention. Incredible.
Rondo's a great player... I'd take Kyrie over him easily.
-
No, Rondo is a rare talent and a true celtic. Unless you get a Lebron or Durant you don't trade him.
Absurd. I'd say every GM in the Association would take Irving over Rondo.
I seriously doubt that's the case. Of course, this argument can go nowhere except "what I say" vs. "what you say" unless one of us has a confirmed report about what all the league's gms have to say about the relative worths of Rondo and Irving.
True, though I don't think it's really a stretch of a claim. Certainly the majority would.
Regardless, comparing Rondo to Durant or Lebron in value is a joke. Can't compare Irving to them either.
Depends on situation team is in.
If you are starting team from scratch maybe most would pick irving. Also its still a pretty small sample size of irving meaning that there would be greater risk taking him at this point.
OJ Mayo and Tyree Evans looked pretty good there rookie year too.
First, Irving is better in his second year than he was as a rookie. Second, Mayo and Evans were no where near as good as Irving as a rookie. Not even close. I said it earlier in this thread and will say it again. Kyrie Irving had the best and most complete rookie season of any PG since Magic Johnson, and I don't really think you could add anyone else to the discussion.
I don't know what you are using as your magic measuring stick, but I think a good case could be made that Evans' rookie year was at least close to as impressive as Irving's. Certainly, one could make a case that Paul's rookie season was as good, if not better than, Irving's.
Also, a case could be made that Irving's numbers so far this season are slightly worse than last years.
-
People don't understand how good he is. Kyrie at age 19 was arguably better than LeBron or Durant as rookie teenagers. Those two shot like 40% as rookies. He's unbelievable... he played like 11 games in College, stepped into the NBA and was already one of the best shooters in the entire league. It's incredible he was able to be that efficient with that supporting cast with that kind of attention. Incredible.
Rondo's a great player... I'd take Kyrie over him easily.
I understand how good he is, I just don't think it's a given that he'll ever be as good as Rondo.
-
I would do that trade in 2 seconds. I would also do Rondo for Kyrie straight up. Kyrie is going to be the best PG in the lkeague very soon.
-
Uh, yeah. I'd move Rondo in any deal I could get Irving.
And if I get Bob on the side, I'm sending that one to Stern before the Cleveland people put the coke or the alcohol away.
No. Brainer.
-
No, Rondo is a rare talent and a true celtic. Unless you get a Lebron or Durant you don't trade him.
Absurd. I'd say every GM in the Association would take Irving over Rondo.
I seriously doubt that's the case. Of course, this argument can go nowhere except "what I say" vs. "what you say" unless one of us has a confirmed report about what all the league's gms have to say about the relative worths of Rondo and Irving.
True, though I don't think it's really a stretch of a claim. Certainly the majority would.
Regardless, comparing Rondo to Durant or Lebron in value is a joke. Can't compare Irving to them either.
Depends on situation team is in.
If you are starting team from scratch maybe most would pick irving. Also its still a pretty small sample size of irving meaning that there would be greater risk taking him at this point.
OJ Mayo and Tyree Evans looked pretty good there rookie year too.
Irving's a rookie?
How many games has he played in? 80? Yeah he's basically a rookie
-
So thats what we base PG's these days is scoring? Isn't the PG 1st job is to get everyone involved & sacrifice his personal success to increase or maximize another potential? You guys are clueless sometimes.
Rondo vs. Irving
Passing: Rondo & by a longshot he's in "Kidd-Stockton-Magic" zone
Rebounding: Rondo
Shooting: Irving
FT Shooting: Irving
Defense: Rondo
Steals: Rondo
Speed: Rondo
Handle: Equal
Athletcism: Rondo
Durability: Rondo
Intangibles: Rondo
Body type: Rondo "7ft arm length, hands & vision"
Ability to dominate the game on both ends: Rondo "look at the triple doubles alrealdy accumulated"
Postseason clutchness: Rondo being we have no clue what Irving will do yet
-
No, Rondo is a rare talent and a true celtic. Unless you get a Lebron or Durant you don't trade him.
Absurd. I'd say every GM in the Association would take Irving over Rondo.
I seriously doubt that's the case. Of course, this argument can go nowhere except "what I say" vs. "what you say" unless one of us has a confirmed report about what all the league's gms have to say about the relative worths of Rondo and Irving.
True, though I don't think it's really a stretch of a claim. Certainly the majority would.
Regardless, comparing Rondo to Durant or Lebron in value is a joke. Can't compare Irving to them either.
Depends on situation team is in.
If you are starting team from scratch maybe most would pick irving. Also its still a pretty small sample size of irving meaning that there would be greater risk taking him at this point.
OJ Mayo and Tyree Evans looked pretty good there rookie year too.
First, Irving is better in his second year than he was as a rookie. Second, Mayo and Evans were no where near as good as Irving as a rookie. Not even close. I said it earlier in this thread and will say it again. Kyrie Irving had the best and most complete rookie season of any PG since Magic Johnson, and I don't really think you could add anyone else to the discussion.
Ugh how about Blake Griffins rookie season after a torn acl?
A couple years later and im not really sold on him becoming the greatest pf ever. Allen Iverson wasn't to shabby his rookie year either
If you say you would take Irving over everyone but Lebron than that makes sense.
My only point is that you can't just pencil him in right now as a HOF, at least I don't think you can
-
People don't understand how good he is. Kyrie at age 19 was arguably better than LeBron or Durant as rookie teenagers. Those two shot like 40% as rookies. He's unbelievable... he played like 11 games in College, stepped into the NBA and was already one of the best shooters in the entire league. It's incredible he was able to be that efficient with that supporting cast with that kind of attention. Incredible.
Rondo's a great player... I'd take Kyrie over him easily.
I understand how good he is, I just don't think it's a given that he'll ever be as good as Rondo.
I think he might be better than Rondo already. Hard to say. The fact that he's still a child and scoring that efficiently with no supporting cast (meaning he's getting all the attention of the defense) is sort of mind-blowing. It would be interesting to see what he'd do with a supporting cast like Rondo's.
Could Irving get 12 assists per game on Boston? Maybe
Could Rondo average 23 points on the Cavs while shooting 46% FG, 40% from three and 80% from the line? No.
Can't wait to see how good Irving is as an adult.
To be fair to Rondo, it's hard to compare anyone to him at the moment. Through 24 games, he's second only to the great Chris Paul in terms of efficiency. He's having the best season of his career so far.
-
People don't understand how good he is. Kyrie at age 19 was arguably better than LeBron or Durant as rookie teenagers. Those two shot like 40% as rookies. He's unbelievable... he played like 11 games in College, stepped into the NBA and was already one of the best shooters in the entire league. It's incredible he was able to be that efficient with that supporting cast with that kind of attention. Incredible.
Rondo's a great player... I'd take Kyrie over him easily.
I understand how good he is, I just don't think it's a given that he'll ever be as good as Rondo.
I think he might be better than Rondo already.
That would make you wrong.
-
People don't understand how good he is. Kyrie at age 19 was arguably better than LeBron or Durant as rookie teenagers. Those two shot like 40% as rookies. He's unbelievable... he played like 11 games in College, stepped into the NBA and was already one of the best shooters in the entire league. It's incredible he was able to be that efficient with that supporting cast with that kind of attention. Incredible.
Rondo's a great player... I'd take Kyrie over him easily.
I understand how good he is, I just don't think it's a given that he'll ever be as good as Rondo.
I think he might be better than Rondo already. Hard to say. The fact that he's still a child and scoring that efficiently with no supporting cast (meaning he's getting all the attention of the defense) is sort of mind-blowing. It would be interesting to see what he'd do with a supporting cast like Rondo's.
Could Irving get 12 assists per game on Boston? Maybe
Could Rondo average 23 points on the Cavs while shooting 46% FG, 40% from three and 80% from the line? No.
Can't wait to see how good Irving is as an adult.
Irving is by all means an adult. He's old enough to go to war for our country, he's an adult. Rondo could easily hit all of those averages on the Cavs AND have a much higher assist average, the only one he can't do is the FT% average.
-
People don't understand how good he is. Kyrie at age 19 was arguably better than LeBron or Durant as rookie teenagers. Those two shot like 40% as rookies. He's unbelievable... he played like 11 games in College, stepped into the NBA and was already one of the best shooters in the entire league. It's incredible he was able to be that efficient with that supporting cast with that kind of attention. Incredible.
Rondo's a great player... I'd take Kyrie over him easily.
I understand how good he is, I just don't think it's a given that he'll ever be as good as Rondo.
I think he might be better than Rondo already. Hard to say. The fact that he's still a child and scoring that efficiently with no supporting cast (meaning he's getting all the attention of the defense) is sort of mind-blowing. It would be interesting to see what he'd do with a supporting cast like Rondo's.
Could Irving get 12 assists per game on Boston? Maybe
Could Rondo average 23 points on the Cavs while shooting 46% FG, 40% from three and 80% from the line? no.
Can't wait to see how good Irving is as an adult.
I wouldn't say Irving's better RIGHT NOW, but down the road, I think Irving could make a case for best point guard in the league.
The fact that he's played less than 100 games collegiately/professionally and is already this goodies incredible. I hope he can get a really nice supporting cast around because the dude is going to be a beast.
As for the trade, I'm leaning towards accepting it. Irving and Varejao for Rondo? That could end up being a steal down the road.
-
People don't understand how good he is. Kyrie at age 19 was arguably better than LeBron or Durant as rookie teenagers. Those two shot like 40% as rookies. He's unbelievable... he played like 11 games in College, stepped into the NBA and was already one of the best shooters in the entire league. It's incredible he was able to be that efficient with that supporting cast with that kind of attention. Incredible.
Rondo's a great player... I'd take Kyrie over him easily.
I understand how good he is, I just don't think it's a given that he'll ever be as good as Rondo.
I think he might be better than Rondo already. Hard to say. The fact that he's still a child and scoring that efficiently with no supporting cast (meaning he's getting all the attention of the defense) is sort of mind-blowing. It would be interesting to see what he'd do with a supporting cast like Rondo's.
Could Irving get 12 assists per game on Boston? Maybe
Could Rondo average 23 points on the Cavs while shooting 46% FG, 40% from three and 80% from the line? No.
Can't wait to see how good Irving is as an adult.
Irving is by all means an adult. He's old enough to go to war for our country, he's an adult. Rondo could easily hit all of those averages on the Cavs AND have a much higher assist average, the only one he can't do is the FT% average.
Cool beans. When Rondo was Irving's age he averaged 6 points, 3.8 assists on 41% shooting, 20% from three and 65% from the line. I think it's adorable that you believe ROndo could play with that garbage supporting cast and suddenly start shooting 40% from three and 80% from the line (he's currently shooting 28%/64% respectively). I tend to think having players like Pierce (who can still drop 40 on a whim) takes a little attention off Rondo in Boston. It's certainly a luxury Irving doesn't have in Cleveland.
In terms of efficiency, Irving at 20 years old is slightly below Rondo at his absolute peak. The season isn't over yet, though. It would be interesting to see what Irving could do with Rondo's star teammates and vice versa. I have to give Rondo the slight nod at the moment simply because through 24 games, he's playing better than he's ever played... which makes sense since most players peak at his age. But Irving at age 20 is sensational... If I had the opportunity to trade Rondo for Irving, I'd do it. Pretty sure most GM's throughout the league would as well.
-
People don't understand how good he is. Kyrie at age 19 was arguably better than LeBron or Durant as rookie teenagers. Those two shot like 40% as rookies. He's unbelievable... he played like 11 games in College, stepped into the NBA and was already one of the best shooters in the entire league. It's incredible he was able to be that efficient with that supporting cast with that kind of attention. Incredible.
Rondo's a great player... I'd take Kyrie over him easily.
I understand how good he is, I just don't think it's a given that he'll ever be as good as Rondo.
I think he might be better than Rondo already. Hard to say. The fact that he's still a child and scoring that efficiently with no supporting cast (meaning he's getting all the attention of the defense) is sort of mind-blowing. It would be interesting to see what he'd do with a supporting cast like Rondo's.
Could Irving get 12 assists per game on Boston? Maybe
Could Rondo average 23 points on the Cavs while shooting 46% FG, 40% from three and 80% from the line? No.
Can't wait to see how good Irving is as an adult.
To be fair to Rondo, it's hard to compare anyone to him at the moment. Through 24 games, he's second only to the great Chris Paul in terms of efficiency. He's having the best season of his career so far.
It's just as absurd to think that Irving could average 12 assists for the Celtics as it is to think that Rondo would shoot 40% from three and eighty from the line for the Cavs.
Neither would happen. It's the ridiculously tired old argument that the only reason Rajon Rondo is such a good passer is because of the teammates he plays with. Oddly enough, as the "big three" has turned into "two" and one of them can only play 29 minutes a night and many fans are panicking that the other one is completely washed up, Rondo's assist numbers just keep climbing.
News flash: Rondo's a really, really good passer--like historically good passer, one of the best ever. His detractors should be able to recognize this by now.
-
People don't understand how good he is. Kyrie at age 19 was arguably better than LeBron or Durant as rookie teenagers. Those two shot like 40% as rookies. He's unbelievable... he played like 11 games in College, stepped into the NBA and was already one of the best shooters in the entire league. It's incredible he was able to be that efficient with that supporting cast with that kind of attention. Incredible.
Rondo's a great player... I'd take Kyrie over him easily.
I understand how good he is, I just don't think it's a given that he'll ever be as good as Rondo.
I think he might be better than Rondo already. Hard to say. The fact that he's still a child and scoring that efficiently with no supporting cast (meaning he's getting all the attention of the defense) is sort of mind-blowing. It would be interesting to see what he'd do with a supporting cast like Rondo's.
Could Irving get 12 assists per game on Boston? Maybe
Could Rondo average 23 points on the Cavs while shooting 46% FG, 40% from three and 80% from the line? No.
Can't wait to see how good Irving is as an adult.
Irving is by all means an adult. He's old enough to go to war for our country, he's an adult. Rondo could easily hit all of those averages on the Cavs AND have a much higher assist average, the only one he can't do is the FT% average.
Cool beans. When Rondo was Irving's age he averaged 6 points, 3.8 assists on 41% shooting, 20% from three and 65% from the line. I think it's adorable that you believe ROndo could play with that garbage supporting cast and suddenly start shooting 40% from three and 80% from the line (he's currently shooting 28%/64% respectively). I tend to think having players like Pierce (who can still drop 40 on a whim) takes a little attention off Rondo in Boston. It's certainly a luxury Irving doesn't have in Cleveland.
In terms of efficiency, Irving at 20 years old is slightly below Rondo at his absolute peak. The season isn't over yet, though. It would be interesting to see what Irving could do with Rondo's star teammates and vice versa. I have to give Rondo the slight nod at the moment simply because through 24 games, he's playing better than he's ever played... which makes sense since most players peak at his age. But Irving at age 20 is sensational... If I had the opportunity to trade Rondo for Irving, I'd do it. Pretty sure most GM's throughout the league would as well.
You may be correct, I just think that Rondo is one of those special players who does what his team needs and finds a way to win. I also don't think he has reached his peak yet. You can make the argument that if Rondo had a young, athletic supporting cast he would be even better, and his skills have not been the best match with the old vets he has been playing with. Dribbling out the clock waiting for Ray to get open off multiple screens just to have to take a last second contested 3 himself certainly didn't help.
As much as I'm glad that KG and Paul stayed for this year and the next, I was also looking forward to seeing what Rondo could do with a younger running team.
Either way, TP for making a sound, reasonable argument.
-
People don't understand how good he is. Kyrie at age 19 was arguably better than LeBron or Durant as rookie teenagers. Those two shot like 40% as rookies. He's unbelievable... he played like 11 games in College, stepped into the NBA and was already one of the best shooters in the entire league. It's incredible he was able to be that efficient with that supporting cast with that kind of attention. Incredible.
Rondo's a great player... I'd take Kyrie over him easily.
I understand how good he is, I just don't think it's a given that he'll ever be as good as Rondo.
I think he might be better than Rondo already. Hard to say. The fact that he's still a child and scoring that efficiently with no supporting cast (meaning he's getting all the attention of the defense) is sort of mind-blowing. It would be interesting to see what he'd do with a supporting cast like Rondo's.
Could Irving get 12 assists per game on Boston? Maybe
Could Rondo average 23 points on the Cavs while shooting 46% FG, 40% from three and 80% from the line? No.
Can't wait to see how good Irving is as an adult.
To be fair to Rondo, it's hard to compare anyone to him at the moment. Through 24 games, he's second only to the great Chris Paul in terms of efficiency. He's having the best season of his career so far.
It's just as absurd to think that Irving could average 12 assists for the Celtics as it is to think that Rondo would shoot 40% from three and eighty from the line for the Cavs.
Is it, though?
Is it?
Look... I'll admit off the bat that maybe I undervalue the difficulty of getting assists a bit. It does take talent. That said, Rondo's been playing on this team with this coach for 7 years now. Our offense is built around his weaknesses. He controls the ball constantly... players come off screens... he passes to the open guy. He's undeniably talented, but our system is structured for him to get tons of assists.
ROndo's averaging 13.7 points, 11.9 assists on 51% shooting, 29% from three and 64% from the line.
Irving is averaging 23 points, 5.5 assists on 46% shooting, 40% from three and 80% from the line.
Let's talk about their supporting cast, because it's absolutely relevant.
On the Cavs, there are a total of 6 players who have career shooting percentages above 43%.
Varejao - 51% - 7 PPG career average
Thompson - 45% - 8.5
Zeller - 44% - 7.7
Samuels - 45% - 5.9
Leuer - 49% - 4.6
Walton - 43% - 4.8
That's pathetic. Most of those guys are total dog crap players. This season, only three of them are shooting over 43%... Varejao, Thompson and Zeller. Nobody on that team has double digit career averages. The suddenly vastly overrated Varejao is averaging 14 points by default. It's a team of garbage. It's a wonder Irving can average 5.5 assists in the first place.
Now take a look at Rondo's supporting cast. He's got a total of 10 players with career shooting percentage above 43%.
Barbosa - 46% - 12.2 PPG career average
Bass - 49% - 8.4
Bradley - 48% - 5.6
KG - 50% - 19
Green - 44% - 13.5
LEe - 44% - 9.7
Pierce - 45% - 22
Sully - 47% - 5
Terry - 45% - 16
Wilcox - 54% - 8.5
In other words... Chris Wilcox is a better offensive player than ANYONE on the Cavs roster outside of Irving. Nobody on Cleveland is commanding attention other than IRving... it's nothing short of incredible that Irving can shoot as well as he does. 9 of the players on Boston are shooting over 43% this year as well (Barbosa hasn't had enough shots to get his percentage up). Is it at all surprising that a ball dominating player who only has to pass is averaging 12 assists with those scorers? No.
Is it at really all that unthinkable that Irving, in Rondo's role with Rondo's supporting cast would average 12 assists? Don't know. You tell me. Irving takes 7 more shots per night (because he has to) ... if he took 7 less shots playing with BOston's scorers, how many more assists would he get?
Would Rondo get 12 assists per game while playing with Varejao, Thompson and Zeller as opposed to Bass, KG, Green, Lee, Pierce, Terry, etc? ... Dunno. You tell me. Very unlikely since he'd be asked to score a lot more. Boston has 5 guys capable of dropping double digits every night... Cleveland has none. Would Rondo average a very efficient 23 points while playing with those Cleveland bums? Absolutely not. He's not capable of that kind of shooting.
I love Rondo. This is his best season ever. I'd trade him for Irving without question. I understand the rebuttal to all of this is, "It's not a pointguard's job to score!... it's to get people involved"... Fine. I get that. The truly great ones (like Magic, Isiah and CHris Paul) manage to do both.
-
People don't understand how good he is. Kyrie at age 19 was arguably better than LeBron or Durant as rookie teenagers. Those two shot like 40% as rookies. He's unbelievable... he played like 11 games in College, stepped into the NBA and was already one of the best shooters in the entire league. It's incredible he was able to be that efficient with that supporting cast with that kind of attention. Incredible.
Rondo's a great player... I'd take Kyrie over him easily.
I understand how good he is, I just don't think it's a given that he'll ever be as good as Rondo.
I think he might be better than Rondo already. Hard to say. The fact that he's still a child and scoring that efficiently with no supporting cast (meaning he's getting all the attention of the defense) is sort of mind-blowing. It would be interesting to see what he'd do with a supporting cast like Rondo's.
Could Irving get 12 assists per game on Boston? Maybe
Could Rondo average 23 points on the Cavs while shooting 46% FG, 40% from three and 80% from the line? No.
Can't wait to see how good Irving is as an adult.
To be fair to Rondo, it's hard to compare anyone to him at the moment. Through 24 games, he's second only to the great Chris Paul in terms of efficiency. He's having the best season of his career so far.
It's just as absurd to think that Irving could average 12 assists for the Celtics as it is to think that Rondo would shoot 40% from three and eighty from the line for the Cavs.
Is it, though?
Is it?
Look... I'll admit off the bat that maybe I undervalue the difficulty of getting assists a bit. It does take talent. That said, Rondo's been playing on this team with this coach for 7 years now. Our offense is built around his weaknesses. He controls the ball constantly... players come off screens... he passes to the open guy. He's undeniably talented, but our system is structured for him to get tons of assists.
ROndo's averaging 13.7 points, 11.9 assists on 51% shooting, 29% from three and 64% from the line.
Irving is averaging 23 points, 5.5 assists on 46% shooting, 40% from three and 80% from the line.
Let's talk about their supporting cast, because it's absolutely relevant.
On the Cavs, there are a total of 6 players who have career shooting percentages above 43%.
Varejao - 51% - 7 PPG career average
Thompson - 45% - 8.5
Zeller - 44% - 7.7
Samuels - 45% - 5.9
Leuer - 49% - 4.6
Walton - 43% - 4.8
That's pathetic. Most of those guys are total dog crap players. This season, only three of them are shooting over 43%... Varejao, Thompson and Zeller. Nobody on that team has double digit career averages. The suddenly vastly overrated Varejao is averaging 14 points by default. It's a team of garbage. It's a wonder Irving can average 5.5 assists in the first place.
Now take a look at Rondo's supporting cast. He's got a total of 10 players with career shooting percentage above 43%.
Barbosa - 46% - 12.2 PPG career average
Bass - 49% - 8.4
Bradley - 48% - 5.6
KG - 50% - 19
Green - 44% - 13.5
LEe - 44% - 9.7
Pierce - 45% - 22
Sully - 47% - 5
Terry - 45% - 16
Wilcox - 54% - 8.5
In other words... Chris Wilcox is a better offensive player than ANYONE on the Cavs roster outside of Irving. Nobody on Cleveland is commanding attention other than IRving... it's nothing short of incredible that Irving can shoot as well as he does. 9 of the players on Boston are shooting over 43% this year as well (Barbosa hasn't had enough shots to get his percentage up). Is it at all surprising that a ball dominating player who only has to pass is averaging 12 assists with those scorers? No.
Is it at really all that unthinkable that Irving, in Rondo's role with Rondo's supporting cast would average 12 assists? Don't know. You tell me. Would Rondo get 12 assists per game while playing with Varejao, Thompson and Zeller as opposed to Bass, KG, Green, Lee, Pierce, Terry, etc? ... Dunno. You tell me. Would Rondo average a very efficient 23 points while playing with those Cleveland bums? Absolutely not. He's not capable of that kind of shooting.
I love Rondo. This is his best season ever. I'd trade him for Irving without question.
You missed the 2nd best offensive player on the team, Dion Waiters. And there is no way that you can call Wilcox a better offensive player than anyone on the Cavs except Irving. That's just false. Field goal percentage is not an appropriate measure of how good an offensive player someone is. If a guy takes 2 shots a game, and both are ally-oop dunks from passes by Rondo, that doesn't make him a better offensive player than Varejao, Zeller, or anyone else. If you put Rondo with Varejao, he would get 5 times as many open dunks than Wilcox.
-
People don't understand how good he is. Kyrie at age 19 was arguably better than LeBron or Durant as rookie teenagers. Those two shot like 40% as rookies. He's unbelievable... he played like 11 games in College, stepped into the NBA and was already one of the best shooters in the entire league. It's incredible he was able to be that efficient with that supporting cast with that kind of attention. Incredible.
Rondo's a great player... I'd take Kyrie over him easily.
I understand how good he is, I just don't think it's a given that he'll ever be as good as Rondo.
I think he might be better than Rondo already. Hard to say. The fact that he's still a child and scoring that efficiently with no supporting cast (meaning he's getting all the attention of the defense) is sort of mind-blowing. It would be interesting to see what he'd do with a supporting cast like Rondo's.
Could Irving get 12 assists per game on Boston? Maybe
Could Rondo average 23 points on the Cavs while shooting 46% FG, 40% from three and 80% from the line? No.
Can't wait to see how good Irving is as an adult.
To be fair to Rondo, it's hard to compare anyone to him at the moment. Through 24 games, he's second only to the great Chris Paul in terms of efficiency. He's having the best season of his career so far.
It's just as absurd to think that Irving could average 12 assists for the Celtics as it is to think that Rondo would shoot 40% from three and eighty from the line for the Cavs.
Is it, though?
Is it?
Look... I'll admit off the bat that maybe I undervalue the difficulty of getting assists a bit. It does take talent. That said, Rondo's been playing on this team with this coach for 7 years now. Our offense is built around his weaknesses. He controls the ball constantly... players come off screens... he passes to the open guy. He's undeniably talented, but our system is structured for him to get tons of assists.
ROndo's averaging 13.7 points, 11.9 assists on 51% shooting, 29% from three and 64% from the line.
Irving is averaging 23 points, 5.5 assists on 46% shooting, 40% from three and 80% from the line.
Let's talk about their supporting cast, because it's absolutely relevant.
On the Cavs, there are a total of 6 players who have career shooting percentages above 43%.
Varejao - 51% - 7 PPG career average
Thompson - 45% - 8.5
Zeller - 44% - 7.7
Samuels - 45% - 5.9
Leuer - 49% - 4.6
Walton - 43% - 4.8
That's pathetic. Most of those guys are total dog crap players. This season, only three of them are shooting over 43%... Varejao, Thompson and Zeller. Nobody on that team has double digit career averages. The suddenly vastly overrated Varejao is averaging 14 points by default. It's a team of garbage. It's a wonder Irving can average 5.5 assists in the first place.
Now take a look at Rondo's supporting cast. He's got a total of 10 players with career shooting percentage above 43%.
Barbosa - 46% - 12.2 PPG career average
Bass - 49% - 8.4
Bradley - 48% - 5.6
KG - 50% - 19
Green - 44% - 13.5
LEe - 44% - 9.7
Pierce - 45% - 22
Sully - 47% - 5
Terry - 45% - 16
Wilcox - 54% - 8.5
In other words... Chris Wilcox is a better offensive player than ANYONE on the Cavs roster outside of Irving. Nobody on Cleveland is commanding attention other than IRving... it's nothing short of incredible that Irving can shoot as well as he does. 9 of the players on Boston are shooting over 43% this year as well (Barbosa hasn't had enough shots to get his percentage up). Is it at all surprising that a ball dominating player who only has to pass is averaging 12 assists with those scorers? No.
Is it at really all that unthinkable that Irving, in Rondo's role with Rondo's supporting cast would average 12 assists? Don't know. You tell me. Would Rondo get 12 assists per game while playing with Varejao, Thompson and Zeller as opposed to Bass, KG, Green, Lee, Pierce, Terry, etc? ... Dunno. You tell me. Would Rondo average a very efficient 23 points while playing with those Cleveland bums? Absolutely not. He's not capable of that kind of shooting.
I love Rondo. This is his best season ever. I'd trade him for Irving without question.
You missed the 2nd best offensive player on the team, Dion Waiters.
Dion Waiters is a rookie who is shooting 37% and 32% from three. He'd probably be playing on our d-league roster. Next question?
-
It's just as absurd to think that Irving could average 12 assists for the Celtics as it is to think that Rondo would shoot 40% from three and eighty from the line for the Cavs.
You have been making a lot of really weird statements in this thread. It's far more absurd to think that rondo would shoot 40% form three and 80% from the line. He can't even shoot 40% on wide open threes.
If Irving changed his game and decided to pass a lot instead of score, he'd likely give out 10+ assists per game on a team as good as the celtics. But that wouldn't benefit his current team, his team needs him to score the ball, so that's what he does. Assists are as much about mental mindset as ability. Rondo has a very pass-first mindset (in addition to an excellent ability to pass), which is wonderful and why he racks up so many assists. But this is something a player can change about his game. Ability to hit free throws is not a mindset, it is pure ability.
I'm not saying Irving *would* average 12 assists/game (he probably wouldn't), but he certainly *could* more easily than Rondo could shoot 80% from the stripe. Because one stat is about mindset and what the team needs and the other is about pure ability.
-
People don't understand how good he is. Kyrie at age 19 was arguably better than LeBron or Durant as rookie teenagers. Those two shot like 40% as rookies. He's unbelievable... he played like 11 games in College, stepped into the NBA and was already one of the best shooters in the entire league. It's incredible he was able to be that efficient with that supporting cast with that kind of attention. Incredible.
Rondo's a great player... I'd take Kyrie over him easily.
I understand how good he is, I just don't think it's a given that he'll ever be as good as Rondo.
I think he might be better than Rondo already. Hard to say. The fact that he's still a child and scoring that efficiently with no supporting cast (meaning he's getting all the attention of the defense) is sort of mind-blowing. It would be interesting to see what he'd do with a supporting cast like Rondo's.
Could Irving get 12 assists per game on Boston? Maybe
Could Rondo average 23 points on the Cavs while shooting 46% FG, 40% from three and 80% from the line? No.
Can't wait to see how good Irving is as an adult.
To be fair to Rondo, it's hard to compare anyone to him at the moment. Through 24 games, he's second only to the great Chris Paul in terms of efficiency. He's having the best season of his career so far.
It's just as absurd to think that Irving could average 12 assists for the Celtics as it is to think that Rondo would shoot 40% from three and eighty from the line for the Cavs.
Is it, though?
Is it?
Look... I'll admit off the bat that maybe I undervalue the difficulty of getting assists a bit. It does take talent. That said, Rondo's been playing on this team with this coach for 7 years now. Our offense is built around his weaknesses. He controls the ball constantly... players come off screens... he passes to the open guy. He's undeniably talented, but our system is structured for him to get tons of assists.
ROndo's averaging 13.7 points, 11.9 assists on 51% shooting, 29% from three and 64% from the line.
Irving is averaging 23 points, 5.5 assists on 46% shooting, 40% from three and 80% from the line.
Let's talk about their supporting cast, because it's absolutely relevant.
On the Cavs, there are a total of 6 players who have career shooting percentages above 43%.
Varejao - 51% - 7 PPG career average
Thompson - 45% - 8.5
Zeller - 44% - 7.7
Samuels - 45% - 5.9
Leuer - 49% - 4.6
Walton - 43% - 4.8
That's pathetic. Most of those guys are total dog crap players. This season, only three of them are shooting over 43%... Varejao, Thompson and Zeller. Nobody on that team has double digit career averages. The suddenly vastly overrated Varejao is averaging 14 points by default. It's a team of garbage. It's a wonder Irving can average 5.5 assists in the first place.
Now take a look at Rondo's supporting cast. He's got a total of 10 players with career shooting percentage above 43%.
Barbosa - 46% - 12.2 PPG career average
Bass - 49% - 8.4
Bradley - 48% - 5.6
KG - 50% - 19
Green - 44% - 13.5
LEe - 44% - 9.7
Pierce - 45% - 22
Sully - 47% - 5
Terry - 45% - 16
Wilcox - 54% - 8.5
In other words... Chris Wilcox is a better offensive player than ANYONE on the Cavs roster outside of Irving. Nobody on Cleveland is commanding attention other than IRving... it's nothing short of incredible that Irving can shoot as well as he does. 9 of the players on Boston are shooting over 43% this year as well (Barbosa hasn't had enough shots to get his percentage up). Is it at all surprising that a ball dominating player who only has to pass is averaging 12 assists with those scorers? No.
Is it at really all that unthinkable that Irving, in Rondo's role with Rondo's supporting cast would average 12 assists? Don't know. You tell me. Would Rondo get 12 assists per game while playing with Varejao, Thompson and Zeller as opposed to Bass, KG, Green, Lee, Pierce, Terry, etc? ... Dunno. You tell me. Would Rondo average a very efficient 23 points while playing with those Cleveland bums? Absolutely not. He's not capable of that kind of shooting.
I love Rondo. This is his best season ever. I'd trade him for Irving without question.
You missed the 2nd best offensive player on the team, Dion Waiters.
Dion Waiters is a rookie who is shooting 37% and 32% from three. He'd probably be playing on our d-league roster. Next question?
Waiters was the #4 pick in the draft and clearly the 2nd best offensive player on the Cavs. He would be a significant part of our offense, maybe even a starter on our team. And what about the fact that Varejao would get many, many more open looks that Wilcox does if Rondo was his teammate?
This season, Rondo's numbers are his best ever, and it is painfully clear that Pierce and KG just don't have the ability to get their own shots anymore like they used to. The offense is not built to hide Rondo's weaknesses, it's built to compensate for the regression in offensive ability of Pierce and KG. Their careers are extended because they play with Rondo. Pierce is coming off more screens to get a look than anytime ever in his career, and Doc clearly stated that it was a deliberate strategy to help him get looks now that he's older.
-
People don't understand how good he is. Kyrie at age 19 was arguably better than LeBron or Durant as rookie teenagers. Those two shot like 40% as rookies. He's unbelievable... he played like 11 games in College, stepped into the NBA and was already one of the best shooters in the entire league. It's incredible he was able to be that efficient with that supporting cast with that kind of attention. Incredible.
Rondo's a great player... I'd take Kyrie over him easily.
I understand how good he is, I just don't think it's a given that he'll ever be as good as Rondo.
I think he might be better than Rondo already. Hard to say. The fact that he's still a child and scoring that efficiently with no supporting cast (meaning he's getting all the attention of the defense) is sort of mind-blowing. It would be interesting to see what he'd do with a supporting cast like Rondo's.
Could Irving get 12 assists per game on Boston? Maybe
Could Rondo average 23 points on the Cavs while shooting 46% FG, 40% from three and 80% from the line? No.
Can't wait to see how good Irving is as an adult.
To be fair to Rondo, it's hard to compare anyone to him at the moment. Through 24 games, he's second only to the great Chris Paul in terms of efficiency. He's having the best season of his career so far.
It's just as absurd to think that Irving could average 12 assists for the Celtics as it is to think that Rondo would shoot 40% from three and eighty from the line for the Cavs.
Is it, though?
Is it?
Look... I'll admit off the bat that maybe I undervalue the difficulty of getting assists a bit. It does take talent. That said, Rondo's been playing on this team with this coach for 7 years now. Our offense is built around his weaknesses. He controls the ball constantly... players come off screens... he passes to the open guy. He's undeniably talented, but our system is structured for him to get tons of assists.
ROndo's averaging 13.7 points, 11.9 assists on 51% shooting, 29% from three and 64% from the line.
Irving is averaging 23 points, 5.5 assists on 46% shooting, 40% from three and 80% from the line.
Let's talk about their supporting cast, because it's absolutely relevant.
On the Cavs, there are a total of 6 players who have career shooting percentages above 43%.
Varejao - 51% - 7 PPG career average
Thompson - 45% - 8.5
Zeller - 44% - 7.7
Samuels - 45% - 5.9
Leuer - 49% - 4.6
Walton - 43% - 4.8
That's pathetic. Most of those guys are total dog crap players. This season, only three of them are shooting over 43%... Varejao, Thompson and Zeller. Nobody on that team has double digit career averages. The suddenly vastly overrated Varejao is averaging 14 points by default. It's a team of garbage. It's a wonder Irving can average 5.5 assists in the first place.
Now take a look at Rondo's supporting cast. He's got a total of 10 players with career shooting percentage above 43%.
Barbosa - 46% - 12.2 PPG career average
Bass - 49% - 8.4
Bradley - 48% - 5.6
KG - 50% - 19
Green - 44% - 13.5
LEe - 44% - 9.7
Pierce - 45% - 22
Sully - 47% - 5
Terry - 45% - 16
Wilcox - 54% - 8.5
In other words... Chris Wilcox is a better offensive player than ANYONE on the Cavs roster outside of Irving. Nobody on Cleveland is commanding attention other than IRving... it's nothing short of incredible that Irving can shoot as well as he does. 9 of the players on Boston are shooting over 43% this year as well (Barbosa hasn't had enough shots to get his percentage up). Is it at all surprising that a ball dominating player who only has to pass is averaging 12 assists with those scorers? No.
Is it at really all that unthinkable that Irving, in Rondo's role with Rondo's supporting cast would average 12 assists? Don't know. You tell me. Would Rondo get 12 assists per game while playing with Varejao, Thompson and Zeller as opposed to Bass, KG, Green, Lee, Pierce, Terry, etc? ... Dunno. You tell me. Would Rondo average a very efficient 23 points while playing with those Cleveland bums? Absolutely not. He's not capable of that kind of shooting.
I love Rondo. This is his best season ever. I'd trade him for Irving without question.
You missed the 2nd best offensive player on the team, Dion Waiters.
Dion Waiters is a rookie who is shooting 37% and 32% from three. He'd probably be playing on our d-league roster. Next question?
Waiters was the #4 pick in the draft and clearly the 2nd best offensive player on the Cavs. And what about the fact that Varejao would get many, many more open looks that Wilcox does if Rondo was his teammate?
Waiters is the #4 pick. K. He's not an efficient scorer. If that's their 2nd best offensive player, it explains why Irving is only averaging 5 assists, right? How many assists can you get when your top scorer (other than yourself) is only capable of shooting 37% and a dreadful 32% from three. That's Austin Rivers-esque... Not Pierce/KG/Green/Terry/Bass/Lee-esque
...
You know, maybe I'm crazy, but I seem to forget the 6 years that Varejao played with the king of basketball... the man who commands more attention than anyone in the league... an exceptional passer by the name of LeBron James. Remind me... was Varejao throwing down dunk-after-dunk-after-dunk playing with James? I seem to remember him averaging like 6 points.
Dude couldn't be more overrated right now. Srsly.
I think you're totally missing my point. If you have efficient scorers (Waiters isn't one yet) who are capable of efficient shooting (43% or higher)... and your only job is to pass to those efficient shooters... you're going to have a lot of assists, right? Am I over simplifying it here? If I'm playing with 4 guys who are good shooters and my main responsibility is to pass it to them when they are open... aren't I going to get a lot of assists when those shots go in? Rondo has 10 efficient scorers on his team. Irving has 3... maybe... if you want to call Varejao, Thompson and Zeller "scorers". In reality he probably has 0 scorers to pass to since nobody is going to mistake those 3 with a Paul Pierce, KEvin Garnett, Jason Terry, Jeff Green, etc.
-
People don't understand how good he is. Kyrie at age 19 was arguably better than LeBron or Durant as rookie teenagers. Those two shot like 40% as rookies. He's unbelievable... he played like 11 games in College, stepped into the NBA and was already one of the best shooters in the entire league. It's incredible he was able to be that efficient with that supporting cast with that kind of attention. Incredible.
Rondo's a great player... I'd take Kyrie over him easily.
I understand how good he is, I just don't think it's a given that he'll ever be as good as Rondo.
I think he might be better than Rondo already. Hard to say. The fact that he's still a child and scoring that efficiently with no supporting cast (meaning he's getting all the attention of the defense) is sort of mind-blowing. It would be interesting to see what he'd do with a supporting cast like Rondo's.
Could Irving get 12 assists per game on Boston? Maybe
Could Rondo average 23 points on the Cavs while shooting 46% FG, 40% from three and 80% from the line? No.
Can't wait to see how good Irving is as an adult.
To be fair to Rondo, it's hard to compare anyone to him at the moment. Through 24 games, he's second only to the great Chris Paul in terms of efficiency. He's having the best season of his career so far.
It's just as absurd to think that Irving could average 12 assists for the Celtics as it is to think that Rondo would shoot 40% from three and eighty from the line for the Cavs.
Is it, though?
Is it?
Look... I'll admit off the bat that maybe I undervalue the difficulty of getting assists a bit. It does take talent. That said, Rondo's been playing on this team with this coach for 7 years now. Our offense is built around his weaknesses. He controls the ball constantly... players come off screens... he passes to the open guy. He's undeniably talented, but our system is structured for him to get tons of assists.
ROndo's averaging 13.7 points, 11.9 assists on 51% shooting, 29% from three and 64% from the line.
Irving is averaging 23 points, 5.5 assists on 46% shooting, 40% from three and 80% from the line.
Let's talk about their supporting cast, because it's absolutely relevant.
On the Cavs, there are a total of 6 players who have career shooting percentages above 43%.
Varejao - 51% - 7 PPG career average
Thompson - 45% - 8.5
Zeller - 44% - 7.7
Samuels - 45% - 5.9
Leuer - 49% - 4.6
Walton - 43% - 4.8
That's pathetic. Most of those guys are total dog crap players. This season, only three of them are shooting over 43%... Varejao, Thompson and Zeller. Nobody on that team has double digit career averages. The suddenly vastly overrated Varejao is averaging 14 points by default. It's a team of garbage. It's a wonder Irving can average 5.5 assists in the first place.
Now take a look at Rondo's supporting cast. He's got a total of 10 players with career shooting percentage above 43%.
Barbosa - 46% - 12.2 PPG career average
Bass - 49% - 8.4
Bradley - 48% - 5.6
KG - 50% - 19
Green - 44% - 13.5
LEe - 44% - 9.7
Pierce - 45% - 22
Sully - 47% - 5
Terry - 45% - 16
Wilcox - 54% - 8.5
In other words... Chris Wilcox is a better offensive player than ANYONE on the Cavs roster outside of Irving. Nobody on Cleveland is commanding attention other than IRving... it's nothing short of incredible that Irving can shoot as well as he does. 9 of the players on Boston are shooting over 43% this year as well (Barbosa hasn't had enough shots to get his percentage up). Is it at all surprising that a ball dominating player who only has to pass is averaging 12 assists with those scorers? No.
Is it at really all that unthinkable that Irving, in Rondo's role with Rondo's supporting cast would average 12 assists? Don't know. You tell me. Would Rondo get 12 assists per game while playing with Varejao, Thompson and Zeller as opposed to Bass, KG, Green, Lee, Pierce, Terry, etc? ... Dunno. You tell me. Would Rondo average a very efficient 23 points while playing with those Cleveland bums? Absolutely not. He's not capable of that kind of shooting.
I love Rondo. This is his best season ever. I'd trade him for Irving without question.
You missed the 2nd best offensive player on the team, Dion Waiters.
Dion Waiters is a rookie who is shooting 37% and 32% from three. He'd probably be playing on our d-league roster. Next question?
Waiters was the #4 pick in the draft and clearly the 2nd best offensive player on the Cavs. And what about the fact that Varejao would get many, many more open looks that Wilcox does if Rondo was his teammate?
Waiters is the #4 pick. K. He's not an efficient scorer. If that's their 2nd best offensive player, it explains why Irving is only averaging 5 assists, right? How many assists can you get when your top scorer (other than yourself) is only capable of shooting 37% and a dreadful 32% from three. That's Austin Rivers-esque... Not Pierce/KG/Green/Terry/Bass/Lee-esque
...
You know, maybe I'm crazy, but I seem to forget the 6 years that Varejao played with the king of basketball... the man who commands more attention than anyone in the league... an exceptional passer by the name of LeBron James. Remind me... was Varejao throwing down dunk-after-dunk-after-dunk playing with James? I seem to remember him averaging like 6 points.
Dude couldn't be more overrated right now. Srsly.
maybe because the Cavs had like 6 other guys on the team who were very good shooters and the offense was built to spread the floor for James? He also took a lot more shots back then. He really didn't start passing a lot until he got to miami. He should have tried it a couple of years earlier.
So by that reasoning, are you saying you wouldn't trade Wilcox for Varejao right now?
Waiters was out about a month with an injury. His numbers are already climbing now that he's back. He's a legit scoring threat already early in his rookie season.
-
People don't understand how good he is. Kyrie at age 19 was arguably better than LeBron or Durant as rookie teenagers. Those two shot like 40% as rookies. He's unbelievable... he played like 11 games in College, stepped into the NBA and was already one of the best shooters in the entire league. It's incredible he was able to be that efficient with that supporting cast with that kind of attention. Incredible.
Rondo's a great player... I'd take Kyrie over him easily.
I understand how good he is, I just don't think it's a given that he'll ever be as good as Rondo.
I think he might be better than Rondo already. Hard to say. The fact that he's still a child and scoring that efficiently with no supporting cast (meaning he's getting all the attention of the defense) is sort of mind-blowing. It would be interesting to see what he'd do with a supporting cast like Rondo's.
Could Irving get 12 assists per game on Boston? Maybe
Could Rondo average 23 points on the Cavs while shooting 46% FG, 40% from three and 80% from the line? No.
Can't wait to see how good Irving is as an adult.
To be fair to Rondo, it's hard to compare anyone to him at the moment. Through 24 games, he's second only to the great Chris Paul in terms of efficiency. He's having the best season of his career so far.
It's just as absurd to think that Irving could average 12 assists for the Celtics as it is to think that Rondo would shoot 40% from three and eighty from the line for the Cavs.
Is it, though?
Is it?
Look... I'll admit off the bat that maybe I undervalue the difficulty of getting assists a bit. It does take talent. That said, Rondo's been playing on this team with this coach for 7 years now. Our offense is built around his weaknesses. He controls the ball constantly... players come off screens... he passes to the open guy. He's undeniably talented, but our system is structured for him to get tons of assists.
ROndo's averaging 13.7 points, 11.9 assists on 51% shooting, 29% from three and 64% from the line.
Irving is averaging 23 points, 5.5 assists on 46% shooting, 40% from three and 80% from the line.
Let's talk about their supporting cast, because it's absolutely relevant.
On the Cavs, there are a total of 6 players who have career shooting percentages above 43%.
Varejao - 51% - 7 PPG career average
Thompson - 45% - 8.5
Zeller - 44% - 7.7
Samuels - 45% - 5.9
Leuer - 49% - 4.6
Walton - 43% - 4.8
That's pathetic. Most of those guys are total dog crap players. This season, only three of them are shooting over 43%... Varejao, Thompson and Zeller. Nobody on that team has double digit career averages. The suddenly vastly overrated Varejao is averaging 14 points by default. It's a team of garbage. It's a wonder Irving can average 5.5 assists in the first place.
Now take a look at Rondo's supporting cast. He's got a total of 10 players with career shooting percentage above 43%.
Barbosa - 46% - 12.2 PPG career average
Bass - 49% - 8.4
Bradley - 48% - 5.6
KG - 50% - 19
Green - 44% - 13.5
LEe - 44% - 9.7
Pierce - 45% - 22
Sully - 47% - 5
Terry - 45% - 16
Wilcox - 54% - 8.5
In other words... Chris Wilcox is a better offensive player than ANYONE on the Cavs roster outside of Irving. Nobody on Cleveland is commanding attention other than IRving... it's nothing short of incredible that Irving can shoot as well as he does. 9 of the players on Boston are shooting over 43% this year as well (Barbosa hasn't had enough shots to get his percentage up). Is it at all surprising that a ball dominating player who only has to pass is averaging 12 assists with those scorers? No.
Is it at really all that unthinkable that Irving, in Rondo's role with Rondo's supporting cast would average 12 assists? Don't know. You tell me. Would Rondo get 12 assists per game while playing with Varejao, Thompson and Zeller as opposed to Bass, KG, Green, Lee, Pierce, Terry, etc? ... Dunno. You tell me. Would Rondo average a very efficient 23 points while playing with those Cleveland bums? Absolutely not. He's not capable of that kind of shooting.
I love Rondo. This is his best season ever. I'd trade him for Irving without question.
You missed the 2nd best offensive player on the team, Dion Waiters.
Dion Waiters is a rookie who is shooting 37% and 32% from three. He'd probably be playing on our d-league roster. Next question?
Waiters was the #4 pick in the draft and clearly the 2nd best offensive player on the Cavs. And what about the fact that Varejao would get many, many more open looks that Wilcox does if Rondo was his teammate?
Waiters is the #4 pick. K. He's not an efficient scorer. If that's their 2nd best offensive player, it explains why Irving is only averaging 5 assists, right? How many assists can you get when your top scorer (other than yourself) is only capable of shooting 37% and a dreadful 32% from three. That's Austin Rivers-esque... Not Pierce/KG/Green/Terry/Bass/Lee-esque
...
You know, maybe I'm crazy, but I seem to forget the 6 years that Varejao played with the king of basketball... the man who commands more attention than anyone in the league... an exceptional passer by the name of LeBron James. Remind me... was Varejao throwing down dunk-after-dunk-after-dunk playing with James? I seem to remember him averaging like 6 points.
Dude couldn't be more overrated right now. Srsly.
maybe because the Cavs had like 6 other guys on the team who were very good shooters and the offense was built to spread the floor for James? He also took a lot more shots back then. He really didn't start passing a lot until he got to miami. He should have tried it a couple of years earlier.
Waiters was out about a month with an injury. His numbers are already climbing now that he's back. He's a legit scoring threat already early in his rookie season.
His numbers aren't climbing. Are you just making stuff up? For the month of December he's averaging 12 points with a dreadful 35% shooting... a ghastly 16% from three.
(http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m5w9qpUKhq1r5jtugo1_400.gif)
Lol sorry I couldn't help myself.
-
People don't understand how good he is. Kyrie at age 19 was arguably better than LeBron or Durant as rookie teenagers. Those two shot like 40% as rookies. He's unbelievable... he played like 11 games in College, stepped into the NBA and was already one of the best shooters in the entire league. It's incredible he was able to be that efficient with that supporting cast with that kind of attention. Incredible.
Rondo's a great player... I'd take Kyrie over him easily.
I understand how good he is, I just don't think it's a given that he'll ever be as good as Rondo.
I think he might be better than Rondo already. Hard to say. The fact that he's still a child and scoring that efficiently with no supporting cast (meaning he's getting all the attention of the defense) is sort of mind-blowing. It would be interesting to see what he'd do with a supporting cast like Rondo's.
Could Irving get 12 assists per game on Boston? Maybe
Could Rondo average 23 points on the Cavs while shooting 46% FG, 40% from three and 80% from the line? No.
Can't wait to see how good Irving is as an adult.
To be fair to Rondo, it's hard to compare anyone to him at the moment. Through 24 games, he's second only to the great Chris Paul in terms of efficiency. He's having the best season of his career so far.
It's just as absurd to think that Irving could average 12 assists for the Celtics as it is to think that Rondo would shoot 40% from three and eighty from the line for the Cavs.
Is it, though?
Is it?
Look... I'll admit off the bat that maybe I undervalue the difficulty of getting assists a bit. It does take talent. That said, Rondo's been playing on this team with this coach for 7 years now. Our offense is built around his weaknesses. He controls the ball constantly... players come off screens... he passes to the open guy. He's undeniably talented, but our system is structured for him to get tons of assists.
ROndo's averaging 13.7 points, 11.9 assists on 51% shooting, 29% from three and 64% from the line.
Irving is averaging 23 points, 5.5 assists on 46% shooting, 40% from three and 80% from the line.
Let's talk about their supporting cast, because it's absolutely relevant.
On the Cavs, there are a total of 6 players who have career shooting percentages above 43%.
Varejao - 51% - 7 PPG career average
Thompson - 45% - 8.5
Zeller - 44% - 7.7
Samuels - 45% - 5.9
Leuer - 49% - 4.6
Walton - 43% - 4.8
That's pathetic. Most of those guys are total dog crap players. This season, only three of them are shooting over 43%... Varejao, Thompson and Zeller. Nobody on that team has double digit career averages. The suddenly vastly overrated Varejao is averaging 14 points by default. It's a team of garbage. It's a wonder Irving can average 5.5 assists in the first place.
Now take a look at Rondo's supporting cast. He's got a total of 10 players with career shooting percentage above 43%.
Barbosa - 46% - 12.2 PPG career average
Bass - 49% - 8.4
Bradley - 48% - 5.6
KG - 50% - 19
Green - 44% - 13.5
LEe - 44% - 9.7
Pierce - 45% - 22
Sully - 47% - 5
Terry - 45% - 16
Wilcox - 54% - 8.5
In other words... Chris Wilcox is a better offensive player than ANYONE on the Cavs roster outside of Irving. Nobody on Cleveland is commanding attention other than IRving... it's nothing short of incredible that Irving can shoot as well as he does. 9 of the players on Boston are shooting over 43% this year as well (Barbosa hasn't had enough shots to get his percentage up). Is it at all surprising that a ball dominating player who only has to pass is averaging 12 assists with those scorers? No.
Is it at really all that unthinkable that Irving, in Rondo's role with Rondo's supporting cast would average 12 assists? Don't know. You tell me. Would Rondo get 12 assists per game while playing with Varejao, Thompson and Zeller as opposed to Bass, KG, Green, Lee, Pierce, Terry, etc? ... Dunno. You tell me. Would Rondo average a very efficient 23 points while playing with those Cleveland bums? Absolutely not. He's not capable of that kind of shooting.
I love Rondo. This is his best season ever. I'd trade him for Irving without question.
You missed the 2nd best offensive player on the team, Dion Waiters.
Dion Waiters is a rookie who is shooting 37% and 32% from three. He'd probably be playing on our d-league roster. Next question?
Waiters was the #4 pick in the draft and clearly the 2nd best offensive player on the Cavs. And what about the fact that Varejao would get many, many more open looks that Wilcox does if Rondo was his teammate?
Waiters is the #4 pick. K. He's not an efficient scorer. If that's their 2nd best offensive player, it explains why Irving is only averaging 5 assists, right? How many assists can you get when your top scorer (other than yourself) is only capable of shooting 37% and a dreadful 32% from three. That's Austin Rivers-esque... Not Pierce/KG/Green/Terry/Bass/Lee-esque
...
You know, maybe I'm crazy, but I seem to forget the 6 years that Varejao played with the king of basketball... the man who commands more attention than anyone in the league... an exceptional passer by the name of LeBron James. Remind me... was Varejao throwing down dunk-after-dunk-after-dunk playing with James? I seem to remember him averaging like 6 points.
Dude couldn't be more overrated right now. Srsly.
maybe because the Cavs had like 6 other guys on the team who were very good shooters and the offense was built to spread the floor for James? He also took a lot more shots back then. He really didn't start passing a lot until he got to miami. He should have tried it a couple of years earlier.
Waiters was out about a month with an injury. His numbers are already climbing now that he's back. He's a legit scoring threat already early in his rookie season.
His numbers aren't climbing. Are you just making stuff up? For the month of December he's averaging 12 points with a dreadful 35% shooting... a ghastly 16% from three.
(http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m5w9qpUKhq1r5jtugo1_400.gif)
Lol sorry I couldn't help myself.
So tell me, would you refuse to trade Wilcox for Varejao?
-
People don't understand how good he is. Kyrie at age 19 was arguably better than LeBron or Durant as rookie teenagers. Those two shot like 40% as rookies. He's unbelievable... he played like 11 games in College, stepped into the NBA and was already one of the best shooters in the entire league. It's incredible he was able to be that efficient with that supporting cast with that kind of attention. Incredible.
Rondo's a great player... I'd take Kyrie over him easily.
I understand how good he is, I just don't think it's a given that he'll ever be as good as Rondo.
I think he might be better than Rondo already. Hard to say. The fact that he's still a child and scoring that efficiently with no supporting cast (meaning he's getting all the attention of the defense) is sort of mind-blowing. It would be interesting to see what he'd do with a supporting cast like Rondo's.
Could Irving get 12 assists per game on Boston? Maybe
Could Rondo average 23 points on the Cavs while shooting 46% FG, 40% from three and 80% from the line? No.
Can't wait to see how good Irving is as an adult.
To be fair to Rondo, it's hard to compare anyone to him at the moment. Through 24 games, he's second only to the great Chris Paul in terms of efficiency. He's having the best season of his career so far.
It's just as absurd to think that Irving could average 12 assists for the Celtics as it is to think that Rondo would shoot 40% from three and eighty from the line for the Cavs.
Is it, though?
Is it?
Look... I'll admit off the bat that maybe I undervalue the difficulty of getting assists a bit. It does take talent. That said, Rondo's been playing on this team with this coach for 7 years now. Our offense is built around his weaknesses. He controls the ball constantly... players come off screens... he passes to the open guy. He's undeniably talented, but our system is structured for him to get tons of assists.
ROndo's averaging 13.7 points, 11.9 assists on 51% shooting, 29% from three and 64% from the line.
Irving is averaging 23 points, 5.5 assists on 46% shooting, 40% from three and 80% from the line.
Let's talk about their supporting cast, because it's absolutely relevant.
On the Cavs, there are a total of 6 players who have career shooting percentages above 43%.
Varejao - 51% - 7 PPG career average
Thompson - 45% - 8.5
Zeller - 44% - 7.7
Samuels - 45% - 5.9
Leuer - 49% - 4.6
Walton - 43% - 4.8
That's pathetic. Most of those guys are total dog crap players. This season, only three of them are shooting over 43%... Varejao, Thompson and Zeller. Nobody on that team has double digit career averages. The suddenly vastly overrated Varejao is averaging 14 points by default. It's a team of garbage. It's a wonder Irving can average 5.5 assists in the first place.
Now take a look at Rondo's supporting cast. He's got a total of 10 players with career shooting percentage above 43%.
Barbosa - 46% - 12.2 PPG career average
Bass - 49% - 8.4
Bradley - 48% - 5.6
KG - 50% - 19
Green - 44% - 13.5
LEe - 44% - 9.7
Pierce - 45% - 22
Sully - 47% - 5
Terry - 45% - 16
Wilcox - 54% - 8.5
In other words... Chris Wilcox is a better offensive player than ANYONE on the Cavs roster outside of Irving. Nobody on Cleveland is commanding attention other than IRving... it's nothing short of incredible that Irving can shoot as well as he does. 9 of the players on Boston are shooting over 43% this year as well (Barbosa hasn't had enough shots to get his percentage up). Is it at all surprising that a ball dominating player who only has to pass is averaging 12 assists with those scorers? No.
Is it at really all that unthinkable that Irving, in Rondo's role with Rondo's supporting cast would average 12 assists? Don't know. You tell me. Would Rondo get 12 assists per game while playing with Varejao, Thompson and Zeller as opposed to Bass, KG, Green, Lee, Pierce, Terry, etc? ... Dunno. You tell me. Would Rondo average a very efficient 23 points while playing with those Cleveland bums? Absolutely not. He's not capable of that kind of shooting.
I love Rondo. This is his best season ever. I'd trade him for Irving without question.
You missed the 2nd best offensive player on the team, Dion Waiters.
Dion Waiters is a rookie who is shooting 37% and 32% from three. He'd probably be playing on our d-league roster. Next question?
Waiters was the #4 pick in the draft and clearly the 2nd best offensive player on the Cavs. And what about the fact that Varejao would get many, many more open looks that Wilcox does if Rondo was his teammate?
Waiters is the #4 pick. K. He's not an efficient scorer. If that's their 2nd best offensive player, it explains why Irving is only averaging 5 assists, right? How many assists can you get when your top scorer (other than yourself) is only capable of shooting 37% and a dreadful 32% from three. That's Austin Rivers-esque... Not Pierce/KG/Green/Terry/Bass/Lee-esque
...
You know, maybe I'm crazy, but I seem to forget the 6 years that Varejao played with the king of basketball... the man who commands more attention than anyone in the league... an exceptional passer by the name of LeBron James. Remind me... was Varejao throwing down dunk-after-dunk-after-dunk playing with James? I seem to remember him averaging like 6 points.
Dude couldn't be more overrated right now. Srsly.
maybe because the Cavs had like 6 other guys on the team who were very good shooters and the offense was built to spread the floor for James? He also took a lot more shots back then. He really didn't start passing a lot until he got to miami. He should have tried it a couple of years earlier.
Waiters was out about a month with an injury. His numbers are already climbing now that he's back. He's a legit scoring threat already early in his rookie season.
His numbers aren't climbing. Are you just making stuff up? For the month of December he's averaging 12 points with a dreadful 35% shooting... a ghastly 16% from three.
(http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m5w9qpUKhq1r5jtugo1_400.gif)
Lol sorry I couldn't help myself.
So tell me, would you refuse to trade Wilcox for Varejao?
Varejao is a more valuable player for a number of reasons ... but if we're purely talking scoring... Varejao has career scoring average of 7 points on 51% shooting... Wilcox has a career scoring average of 8.5 points on 54% shooting.
Maybe I was using a little hyperbole there.. but maybe not. You probably get my point... Cleveland has MAYBE 3 "efficient" scorers for Irving to pass the ball to... he takes 7 more shots a night and manages to average 5.5 assists in spite of his horrible supporting cast. Meanwhile, Boston has 10 "efficient" scorers for Rondo to pass the ball to. He takes 7 less shots a night and averages 12 assists... at least in part, because of his excellent (at least in terms of scoring) supporting cast.
Good debate hpantazo. Work is slow today with everyone out for the Holidays. Thanks for the back-and-forth. :)
-
People don't understand how good he is. Kyrie at age 19 was arguably better than LeBron or Durant as rookie teenagers. Those two shot like 40% as rookies. He's unbelievable... he played like 11 games in College, stepped into the NBA and was already one of the best shooters in the entire league. It's incredible he was able to be that efficient with that supporting cast with that kind of attention. Incredible.
Rondo's a great player... I'd take Kyrie over him easily.
I understand how good he is, I just don't think it's a given that he'll ever be as good as Rondo.
I think he might be better than Rondo already. Hard to say. The fact that he's still a child and scoring that efficiently with no supporting cast (meaning he's getting all the attention of the defense) is sort of mind-blowing. It would be interesting to see what he'd do with a supporting cast like Rondo's.
Could Irving get 12 assists per game on Boston? Maybe
Could Rondo average 23 points on the Cavs while shooting 46% FG, 40% from three and 80% from the line? No.
Can't wait to see how good Irving is as an adult.
To be fair to Rondo, it's hard to compare anyone to him at the moment. Through 24 games, he's second only to the great Chris Paul in terms of efficiency. He's having the best season of his career so far.
It's just as absurd to think that Irving could average 12 assists for the Celtics as it is to think that Rondo would shoot 40% from three and eighty from the line for the Cavs.
Is it, though?
Is it?
Look... I'll admit off the bat that maybe I undervalue the difficulty of getting assists a bit. It does take talent. That said, Rondo's been playing on this team with this coach for 7 years now. Our offense is built around his weaknesses. He controls the ball constantly... players come off screens... he passes to the open guy. He's undeniably talented, but our system is structured for him to get tons of assists.
ROndo's averaging 13.7 points, 11.9 assists on 51% shooting, 29% from three and 64% from the line.
Irving is averaging 23 points, 5.5 assists on 46% shooting, 40% from three and 80% from the line.
Let's talk about their supporting cast, because it's absolutely relevant.
On the Cavs, there are a total of 6 players who have career shooting percentages above 43%.
Varejao - 51% - 7 PPG career average
Thompson - 45% - 8.5
Zeller - 44% - 7.7
Samuels - 45% - 5.9
Leuer - 49% - 4.6
Walton - 43% - 4.8
That's pathetic. Most of those guys are total dog crap players. This season, only three of them are shooting over 43%... Varejao, Thompson and Zeller. Nobody on that team has double digit career averages. The suddenly vastly overrated Varejao is averaging 14 points by default. It's a team of garbage. It's a wonder Irving can average 5.5 assists in the first place.
Now take a look at Rondo's supporting cast. He's got a total of 10 players with career shooting percentage above 43%.
Barbosa - 46% - 12.2 PPG career average
Bass - 49% - 8.4
Bradley - 48% - 5.6
KG - 50% - 19
Green - 44% - 13.5
LEe - 44% - 9.7
Pierce - 45% - 22
Sully - 47% - 5
Terry - 45% - 16
Wilcox - 54% - 8.5
In other words... Chris Wilcox is a better offensive player than ANYONE on the Cavs roster outside of Irving. Nobody on Cleveland is commanding attention other than IRving... it's nothing short of incredible that Irving can shoot as well as he does. 9 of the players on Boston are shooting over 43% this year as well (Barbosa hasn't had enough shots to get his percentage up). Is it at all surprising that a ball dominating player who only has to pass is averaging 12 assists with those scorers? No.
Is it at really all that unthinkable that Irving, in Rondo's role with Rondo's supporting cast would average 12 assists? Don't know. You tell me. Would Rondo get 12 assists per game while playing with Varejao, Thompson and Zeller as opposed to Bass, KG, Green, Lee, Pierce, Terry, etc? ... Dunno. You tell me. Would Rondo average a very efficient 23 points while playing with those Cleveland bums? Absolutely not. He's not capable of that kind of shooting.
I love Rondo. This is his best season ever. I'd trade him for Irving without question.
You missed the 2nd best offensive player on the team, Dion Waiters.
Dion Waiters is a rookie who is shooting 37% and 32% from three. He'd probably be playing on our d-league roster. Next question?
Waiters was the #4 pick in the draft and clearly the 2nd best offensive player on the Cavs. And what about the fact that Varejao would get many, many more open looks that Wilcox does if Rondo was his teammate?
Waiters is the #4 pick. K. He's not an efficient scorer. If that's their 2nd best offensive player, it explains why Irving is only averaging 5 assists, right? How many assists can you get when your top scorer (other than yourself) is only capable of shooting 37% and a dreadful 32% from three. That's Austin Rivers-esque... Not Pierce/KG/Green/Terry/Bass/Lee-esque
...
You know, maybe I'm crazy, but I seem to forget the 6 years that Varejao played with the king of basketball... the man who commands more attention than anyone in the league... an exceptional passer by the name of LeBron James. Remind me... was Varejao throwing down dunk-after-dunk-after-dunk playing with James? I seem to remember him averaging like 6 points.
Dude couldn't be more overrated right now. Srsly.
maybe because the Cavs had like 6 other guys on the team who were very good shooters and the offense was built to spread the floor for James? He also took a lot more shots back then. He really didn't start passing a lot until he got to miami. He should have tried it a couple of years earlier.
Waiters was out about a month with an injury. His numbers are already climbing now that he's back. He's a legit scoring threat already early in his rookie season.
His numbers aren't climbing. Are you just making stuff up? For the month of December he's averaging 12 points with a dreadful 35% shooting... a ghastly 16% from three.
(http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m5w9qpUKhq1r5jtugo1_400.gif)
Lol sorry I couldn't help myself.
So tell me, would you refuse to trade Wilcox for Varejao?
Varejao is a more valuable player for a number of reasons ... but if we're purely talking scoring... Varejao has career scoring average of 7 points on 51% shooting... Wilcox has a career scoring average of 8.5 points on 54% shooting.
Maybe I was using a little hyperbole there.. but maybe not. You probably get my point... Cleveland has MAYBE 3 "efficient" scorers for Irving to pass the ball to... he takes 7 more shots a night and manages to average 5.5 assists in spite of his horrible supporting cast. Meanwhile, Boston has 10 "efficient" scorers for Rondo to pass the ball to. He takes 7 less shots a night and averages 12 assists... at least in part, because of his excellent (at least in terms of scoring) supporting cast.
Good debate hpantazo. Work is slow today with everyone out for the Holidays. Thanks for the back-and-forth. :)
Fair enough, although you can argue that playing with Rondo makes players more efficient scorers. Getting open dunks off Rondo's passes and penetration is much more efficient than posting up on the block or taking a contested jumper for example.
-
It's just as absurd to think that Irving could average 12 assists for the Celtics as it is to think that Rondo would shoot 40% from three and eighty from the line for the Cavs.
You have been making a lot of really weird statements in this thread. It's far more absurd to think that rondo would shoot 40% form three and 80% from the line. He can't even shoot 40% on wide open threes.
If Irving changed his game and decided to pass a lot instead of score, he'd likely give out 10+ assists per game on a team as good as the celtics. But that wouldn't benefit his current team, his team needs him to score the ball, so that's what he does. Assists are as much about mental mindset as ability. Rondo has a very pass-first mindset (in addition to an excellent ability to pass), which is wonderful and why he racks up so many assists. But this is something a player can change about his game. Ability to hit free throws is not a mindset, it is pure ability.
I'm not saying Irving *would* average 12 assists/game (he probably wouldn't), but he certainly *could* more easily than Rondo could shoot 80% from the stripe. Because one stat is about mindset and what the team needs and the other is about pure ability.
Only 21 times in the history of the game has anyone averaged more than 11.5 APG. If Rondo can stay above that mark for this season, he'll join Magic Johnson and John Stockton as the only players to have done it more than once.
It's an insult to the art of passing that so many of you seem to think that if some of these chuckers out there just stopped shooting so much and passing more, that all of a sudden they'd be in league with passers like Johnson, Stockton, and Rondo.
-
I think Irving will top out as more of an 8 assist per game type of guy.
I don't think he'll ever be a 20-10 type of PG. More of a 25-28ppg and 7-8apg type.
-
It's just as absurd to think that Irving could average 12 assists for the Celtics as it is to think that Rondo would shoot 40% from three and eighty from the line for the Cavs.
You have been making a lot of really weird statements in this thread. It's far more absurd to think that rondo would shoot 40% form three and 80% from the line. He can't even shoot 40% on wide open threes.
If Irving changed his game and decided to pass a lot instead of score, he'd likely give out 10+ assists per game on a team as good as the celtics. But that wouldn't benefit his current team, his team needs him to score the ball, so that's what he does. Assists are as much about mental mindset as ability. Rondo has a very pass-first mindset (in addition to an excellent ability to pass), which is wonderful and why he racks up so many assists. But this is something a player can change about his game. Ability to hit free throws is not a mindset, it is pure ability.
I'm not saying Irving *would* average 12 assists/game (he probably wouldn't), but he certainly *could* more easily than Rondo could shoot 80% from the stripe. Because one stat is about mindset and what the team needs and the other is about pure ability.
Only 21 times in the history of the game has anyone averaged more than 11.5 APG. If Rondo can stay above that mark for this season, he'll join Magic Johnson and John Stockton as the only players to have done it more than once.
It's an insult to the art of passing that so many of you seem to think that if some of these chuckers out there just stopped shooting so much and passing more, that all of a sudden they'd be in league with passers like Johnson, Stockton, and Rondo.
What Rondo is doing is great. Only Chris Paul is having a better season than he is right now.
But it's fair to point out that when Stockton was racking up those assists he was also averaging 15-17 points... when Magic was doing it, he was averaging 16-24 points. Rondo came into this season with the expectation of being one of our top scorers and is only averaging 13.7 per night. It's part of the reason Magic recently dogged him (a bit unfair, I think)... HE believes that Rondo needs to shoot more and pass less.
Again, what Rondo is doing is fantastic. His best season to date. He's at his peak. I can't really argue with how he's playing... through 24 games he's the 2nd best point guard in the league. But if I had an opportunity to trade Rondo for 20 year old Irving... I'd absolutely do it. I think Irving could have a MASSIVE career... Do I think it's possible we'd take a tiptoe back this season if the hypothetical trade happened? Yes. That's possible. I think Irving's shooting would actually open things up considerably for everyone else, but it's certainly possible we'd take a tiptoe backwards. But i think the fact that Irving is still locked into his rookie contract for couple seasons would make up for that. It would give us a bit more flexibility to build around Irving in the hypothetical scenario.
Doesn't matter regardless. Cavs would never do it. No way is Irving going anywhere.
-
I think Irving will top out as more of an 8 assist per game type of guy.
I don't think he'll ever be a 20-10 type of PG. More of a 25-28ppg and 7-8apg type.
So you'll think he'll end up a champion like Wade or an MVP like Rose... that sort of player... as opposed to a Jason Kidd or Rondo type. Fair enough. When you're that elite at scoring... you should score.
-
[quote author=LarBrd33 link=topic=61229.msg1359919#msg1359919
Again, what Rondo is doing is fantastic. His best season to date. He's at his peak. I can't really argue with how he's playing... through 24 games he's the 2nd best point guard in the league.
[/quote]
I'm hoping that after tonight's game, he's back to being the best point guard in the league.
-
I think Irving will top out as more of an 8 assist per game type of guy.
I don't think he'll ever be a 20-10 type of PG. More of a 25-28ppg and 7-8apg type.
Yeah, I think that's right.
I'll take 26 ppg and 7.5 assists per game from my PG any day, especially if he's scoring ultra-efficiently.
-
I think Irving will top out as more of an 8 assist per game type of guy.
I don't think he'll ever be a 20-10 type of PG. More of a 25-28ppg and 7-8apg type.
Yeah, I think that's right.
I'll take 26 ppg and 7.5 assists per game from my PG any day, especially if he's scoring ultra-efficiently.
And has ice-water in his veins in the clutch.
-
Facts about Kyrie Irving:
* First rookie since Tim Duncan, and the first guard since Michael Jordan, to average 18.0 points and have a .565 TS%
* He joined Oscar Robinson, Magic Johnson, Michael Jordan, Allen Iverson and LeBron James as the only No. 1 overall picks to average at least 18.0 points and 5.0 assists in their first year
* Kyrie Irving had a better rookie year than Derrick Rose, Deron Williams, Russell Westbrook, John Wall, Rajon Rondo, Steve Nash, and arguably, Chris Paul. Link (http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=irvinky01&y1=2012&p2=rosede01&y2=2009&p3=paulch01&y3=2006&p4=willide01&y4=2006&p5=westbru01&y5=2009&p6=walljo01&y6=2011)
“When we first started talking about Kyrie, the first comparison that came to mind was Chris Paul,” Scott, who coach Paul in New Orleans, said. “But one thing I can say about the two: Kyrie came in as a 19-year-old; Chris came in at 20. And at that particular point, Kyrie’s probably a better basketball player than Chris Paul was at this early stage of his career. It says a lot about where Kyrie is and what potential he has a point guard.”
-
I think Irving will top out as more of an 8 assist per game type of guy.
I don't think he'll ever be a 20-10 type of PG. More of a 25-28ppg and 7-8apg type.
Yeah, I think that's right.
I'll take 26 ppg and 7.5 assists per game from my PG any day, especially if he's scoring ultra-efficiently.
And has ice-water in his veins in the clutch.
(http://i39.tinypic.com/25qdwms.gif)
(http://i42.tinypic.com/20rplyf.gif)
Yeah.
-
And he's half Australian. I would pull the trigger
-
Yup. If not next year, then the one after, Kyrie will be better then Rondo. He's an incredible talent.
-
Yes
-
If you buy the premise that Rondo and Irving are about equal you have to keep in mind that from this point forward Irving is likely to play twice as many years. So it's like 2 Rondos for one. It's like getting a Rondo and then when Rondo is done someone says "Here. Let me hand you another Rondo"
I don't buy that Irving is better. I don't think he's as good a defender or a particularly healthy guy. But he's very good and right now Anderson is the best rebounder in the league which is exactly what we need. Say KG goes down in the playoffs. Or now for like 20 games. You're screwed. With Anderson you might get a ring. Did anyone see Bass made to look like he was standing in cement against Blake Griffin the other night? I don't know if I want to add Sully but basically I lean yes on this trade idea. I don't think Cleveland does it.
-
Yes.
-
most likely yes.
-
Yes
-
I think in a year Kyrie will be better.
-
Yes.
-
This would be a complete heist. Kyrie will be better than Rondo pretty soon, and the trade would not hinder our chances of competing this year. Rondo does. Plug Varejao makes it just too enticing to pass up.
-
Would you guys still do it if Bradley and Sully were included in the deal?
-
Absolutely!!
-
Yes
-
Thats what I'm sayn ....heck yes IN A NEW YORK SECOND ;D
-
hell yeah!
-
I said no initially...
Now I'm in the yes camp
-
I stand by my no. I don't mind being in the minority.
-
I'll even toss in Lee , Collins and Bass to sweetn the deal.
Please Danny get some real basketball players.
-
I really like Rondo. BUT... Irving is special.
The fact our man BBallTim hasn't chimed in says something.
-
I really like Rondo. BUT... Irving is special.
The fact our man BBallTim hasn't chimed in says something.
The trade is just not worth discussing.
-
Hell, I'll even do a Kyrie for Rondo trade straight up.
-
Bump? How about this now -
Rondo + Sullinger for Kyrie + Varejao (who would theoretically have his blood clot heal by late April)
-
Still a resounding NO!
SMH
-
Bump? How about this now -
Rondo + Sullinger for Kyrie + Varejao (who would theoretically have his blood clot heal by late April)
Yes.