CelticsStrong
Celtics Basketball => Celtics Talk => Topic started by: rutzan on December 24, 2012, 06:08:01 PM
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I could not put my finger on why our defense is worst this year so I came up with this:
Defense: This yr vs Last yr
Grading Scale:
5 – Major Positive Impact
4 – Minor Positive Impact
3 – No Effect
2 - Minor Negative Impact
1 - Major Negative Impact
2011 – 2012 Roster Departed:
Ray Allen 2
Marquis Daniels 4
Keyon Dooling 4
Ryan Hollins 4
JaJuan Johnson 3
E’Twaun Moore 3
Jermaine O’Neil 4
Sasha Pavlovic 4
Mickael Pietrus 4
Greg Stiemsma 5
Sean Williams 3
2012 – 2013 Roster Added:
Leandro Barbosa 2
Jason Collins 4
Jeff Green 2
Kris Joseph 3
Courtney Lee 4
Fab Melo 3
Darko Milicic 3
Jared Sullinger 2
Jason Terry 2
Jarvis Varnado 3
Observations:
1)Better defense sprinkled throughout last yr’s roster
2)No interiors defenders on this squad except maybe Collins
3)AB is one of the best, if not the best, defenders at the guard position in the nba…he has been sorely missed…he will have a big impact
4)DA went cheap on Stiemsa ala Tony Allen…Steamer may not be getting a lot of minutes in minny but he was perfect for us
5)Rondo’s defense is down this yr
6)We needed better outside shooting last yr so bass was a good pickup but baby’s defense and intensity looks like it is being missed now…albeit baby’s stats this yr are the result of good stats on a bad team...imo...but...you can't have your cake and eat it too...
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Last years squad was a better defensive team, sadly.
This years team has a lot of offensive talent though, all they need to get is the defensive scheme and defensive intensity, and they will be okay.
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I could not put my finger on why our defense is worst this year so I came up with this:
Defense: This yr vs Last yr
Grading Scale:
5 – Major Positive Impact
4 – Minor Positive Impact
3 – No Effect
2 - Minor Negative Impact
1 - Major Negative Impact
2011 – 2012 Roster Departed:
Ray Allen 2
Marquis Daniels 4
Keyon Dooling 4
Ryan Hollins 4
JaJuan Johnson 3
E’Twaun Moore 3
Jermaine O’Neil 4
Sasha Pavlovic 4
Mickael Pietrus 4
Greg Stiemsma 5
Sean Williams 3
2012 – 2013 Roster Added:
Leandro Barbosa 2
Jason Collins 4
Jeff Green 2
Kris Joseph 3
Courtney Lee 4
Fab Melo 3
Darko Milicic 3
Jared Sullinger 2
Jason Terry 2
Jarvis Varnado 3
Observations:
1)Better defense sprinkled throughout last yr’s roster
2)No interiors defenders on this squad except maybe Collins
3)AB is one of the best, if not the best, defenders at the guard position in the nba…he has been sorely missed…he will have a big impact
4)DA went cheap on Stiemsa ala Tony Allen…Steamer may not be getting a lot of minutes in minny but he was perfect for us
5)Rondo’s defense is down this yr
6)We needed better outside shooting last yr so bass was a good pickup but baby’s defense and intensity looks like it is being missed now…albeit baby’s stats this yr are the result of good stats on a bad team...imo...but...you can't have your cake and eat it too...
Yes, I pretty much said this before without the break down that you did. I said that we replaced a bunch of solid defenders with guys who excel on offense and are poor defenders. Someone quickly shot that idea down saying that the type of defense we play (a lot of helping) can cover for those who are not good on defense. While I know that to be true the person didn't realize that some people need a lot more help than others do, so that takes a toll on the helpers' energy and then someone has to help their man... there is only so much a team can do to cover up for so many inept defenders! KG is able to help hide other people's weaknesses but he is one man, you can't play him all game and he cant cover for everyone... that means at times we have to have a few bad defenders on the court at once, if they can't help themselves, what makes you think they can help others?
TP to you!
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Melo, Milicic, and Varnado shouldn't count yet, they haven't really played for this team.
Lee should be a 5, and Green a 4 imo. Sullinger should be a 3.
Last year, Moore was a 2, Pietrus was a 2 or a 3 at most, Williams and JJJ shouldn't be on the list. Steimsma by playoff time with his injuries was a 2, JO was gone by the playoffs, and Daniels shouldn't be on the list either.
I don't think this team is worse defensively than last year's team on a player to player comparison. If anything this team is better. The new players need to really get the defensive sets down pat. If they are not automatic, a half step off kills us.
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You can't "grade" defense individually. That's not how it works. Defense is a team effort -- and this year's team does not rotate or guard the pick and roll with any manner of consistency.
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You can't "grade" defense individually. That's not how it works. Defense is a team effort -- and this year's team does not rotate or guard the pick and roll with any manner of consistency.
exactly. I think a large part of that is getting the defensive rotations down. If players need to think about when/where to rotate, then the defense already failed. They will get there. If Ray Allen could do it, I'm sure Lee, Green, Terry and Sullinger can do it too.
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3 stands for No Effect or for lack of better words NA that is not applicable
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i would be willing to bet that this year's players are worse individually...i'm sure there are defensive stats out there to support this...any sabermetric gurus out there
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3 stands for No Effect or for lack of better words NA that is not applicable
Ok, NA is fair enough. Still, this year's team has the capability to be a better defensive team than last year's. We have an almost entirely new roster, they have a lot to learn.
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i would be willing to bet that this year's players are worse individually...i'm sure there are defensive stats out there to support this...any sabermetric gurus out there
Really? A hobbled, over the hill Pietrus, an injured D-league player in Steimsma, a guy who never played in Daniels, and the defensive terror that is Ray Allen were a better defensive group of players on an individual basis?!?!?
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i would still like some sabermetric guru to pitch in...btw...steamer is a better post defender than anyone on this yr's team except kg...hands down...not even a conversation...unless...they make a major trade...the c's are not going to get a very good post defender off the street or overseas or from the nbdl...unless lighting strikes twice from the nbdl with vanardo or fab melo makes a dramatic leap
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Ok, let's not overrate Stiemsma here. He was a mediocre post defender as evidenced by thefact that he was practically incapable of defending anybody without borderline fouling out of the game.
The guy blocked a lot of shots and he was usable offensively, but his defense outside of shotblocking was nothing special at all.
As for the above ratings, you rate Terry a 2 and JJJ a 3??? JaJuan Johnson was a horrendous defender!
Also a 5 for Lee? Pietrus was so much better defensively last than Lee is this year. People are overeating Lee's defense based on his athleticism and reputation, but i have not once seen him lockdown a player on defense the way Pietrus sis on a regular basis. I can justify a 4 for Lee, and Pietrus should be a 5 based on this scale, Stiensma a 4.
Dooling, Marquis and Pavlovic were all solid defensively - a 4 for each is about right.
Collins should be a 3 at best. Again people overeating him based on reputation but seemingly have not watched him play. He has defended horribly when he's been on the court and his statistics prove it - he's been our worst defender by a mile. Hollins was a MASSIVE improvement over Collins defensively.
Statistically Terry is our second beat defensive player after KG. This is based purely on stats, so take from that what you will!
Our key difference last year us we had two perimeter defenders who were either elite or borderline elite - Pietrus and Bradley. Those two guys were often on the floor together, and when they were (along with KG) our defense was exceptional.
This season we have one elite perimeter defender and he hasn't played a single game yet. We desperately need a Pietrus type on the perimeter - a strong, long, athletic defensive/hustle minded player. Lee is athletic but he's not big or strong enough to challenge bigger guys like LeBron / Carmello, whereas Pietrus, Daniela and Pavlovic were all capable of defending 3 positions. The ability to throw a mass of defenders at theae guys helped us overachieve as a team.
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Grading Scale:
5 – Major Positive Impact
4 – Minor Positive Impact
3 – No Effect
2 - Minor Negative Impact
1 - Major Negative Impact
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Ok, let's not overrate Stiemsma here. He was a mediocre post defender as evidenced by thefact that he was practically incapable of defending anybody without borderline fouling out of the game.
The guy blocked a lot of shots and he was usable offensively, but his defense outside of shotblocking was nothing special at all.
As for the above ratings, you rate Terry a 2 and JJJ a 3??? JaJuan Johnson was a horrendous defender!
Also a 5 for Lee? Pietrus was so much better defensively last than Lee is this year. People are overeating Lee's defense based on his athleticism and reputation, but i have not once seen him lockdown a player on defense the way Pietrus sis on a regular basis. I can justify a 4 for Lee, and Pietrus should be a 5 based on this scale, Stiensma a 4.
Dooling, Marquis and Pavlovic were all solid defensively - a 4 for each is about right.
Collins should be a 3 at best. Again people overeating him based on reputation but seemingly have not watched him play. He has defended horribly when he's been on the court and his statistics prove it - he's been our worst defender by a mile. Hollins was a MASSIVE improvement over Collins defensively.
Statistically Terry is our second beat defensive player after KG. This is based purely on stats, so take from that what you will!
Our key difference last year us we had two perimeter defenders who were either elite or borderline elite - Pietrus and Bradley. Those two guys were often on the floor together, and when they were (along with KG) our defense was exceptional.
This season we have one elite perimeter defender and he hasn't played a single game yet. We desperately need a Pietrus type on the perimeter - a strong, long, athletic defensive/hustle minded player. Lee is athletic but he's not big or strong enough to challenge bigger guys like LeBron / Carmello, whereas Pietrus, Daniela and Pavlovic were all capable of defending 3 positions. The ability to throw a mass of defenders at theae guys helped us overachieve as a team.
I agree that Steimsma is a poor post defender. Pietrus however was nowhere near a lockdown defender last year, or this year, or the year before. He's a shadow of his former self since his knee issues, and struggled a lot on defense last year. If he was anywhere near being the lockdown defender you suggest, we would have re-signed him. Instead he sat out half the season without a contract and then signed for the vet min to be a 3rd string player on the T-wolves. If he was such a great defender plenty of contenders would have been knocking down the door trying to sign him.
We should have never let Tony Allen leave. Losing him cost us 2 championships. He was much, much more needed than Perk.
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even if you think steamer is a poor post defender...he is still a better post defender than anyone but kg...not even close...that is an indictment of this yr's players...
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let's put it this way...would you ever put the phrase "post defender" in the same sentence as bass, green, wilcox, sullinger, collins...maybe collins...at best...
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let's put it this way...would you ever put the phrase "post defender" in the same sentence as bass, green, wilcox, sullinger, collins...maybe collins...at best...
All four of those players would play over Steimsma if he was here this year. His post defense was pathetic. Don't get fooled by his shot blocking.
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i totally disagree...steamer would def get minutes at center over all of them...guaranteed...
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let's put it this way...it would be far-fetched to call bass or green or sullinger or wilcox a good post defender...more to the point...none of them are centers...only collins might play over steamer at center...as far as post defense with steamer and collins...it's a toss up...
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I made a topic about this.
There is too much fake hustle when this team traps in double teams. They actually need to work harder to pressure the pass out of the double team or steal the ball.
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I can. New faces, no Bradley. Takes time toget the rotations down. No inside intimidation present. Fairly simple.
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the pieces are not fitting like a puzzle yet. With avery bradley back, our bolstered back court may be enough to assist our front court.
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Avery bradley makes a big difference...got this stat from celtics-hub..basically, the team is better with him in the starting lineup both offensively/defensively. Basically those stats above(and the .500 record) with allen starting are similar to what we are seeing with terry starting
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/yz7fOjmsoNfAJY3gV28hq5vHj-6Qe0wOrgECBs6WieLtu9xoQQjBGSPemCJrWzpQHFznOuPSRt1GYQlMRf81L0YhzYFiiUB7Cf5UC74gzGSAaNXKcDm9)
now, alot of people might be saying "well how does one player affect the defense so much!" just look at KG when he is on/off the court...whether people want to admit it or not, bradley is an elite defender and his presence affects this team in a hugely positive way
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Avery bradley makes a big difference...got this stat from celtics-hub..basically, the team is better with him in the starting lineup both offensively/defensively. Basically those stats above(and the .500 record) with allen starting are similar to what we are seeing with terry starting
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/yz7fOjmsoNfAJY3gV28hq5vHj-6Qe0wOrgECBs6WieLtu9xoQQjBGSPemCJrWzpQHFznOuPSRt1GYQlMRf81L0YhzYFiiUB7Cf5UC74gzGSAaNXKcDm9)
now, alot of people might be saying "well how does one player affect the defense so much!" just look at KG when he is on/off the court...whether people want to admit it or not, bradley is an elite defender and his presence affects this team in a hugely positive way
And this "stat" (screenshot from 82games.com, by the way) conveniently forgets to include the fact that a lineup without Bradley but with Jermaine O'Neal was even better defensively, allowing a measly 0.91 points per possession.
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Avery bradley makes a big difference...got this stat from celtics-hub..basically, the team is better with him in the starting lineup both offensively/defensively. Basically those stats above(and the .500 record) with allen starting are similar to what we are seeing with terry starting
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/yz7fOjmsoNfAJY3gV28hq5vHj-6Qe0wOrgECBs6WieLtu9xoQQjBGSPemCJrWzpQHFznOuPSRt1GYQlMRf81L0YhzYFiiUB7Cf5UC74gzGSAaNXKcDm9)
now, alot of people might be saying "well how does one player affect the defense so much!" just look at KG when he is on/off the court...whether people want to admit it or not, bradley is an elite defender and his presence affects this team in a hugely positive way
And this "stat" (screenshot from 82games.com, by the way) conveniently forgets to include the fact that a lineup without Bradley but with Jermaine O'Neal was even better defensively, allowing a measly 0.91 points per possession.
Yea but the bad defender Bass wasn't in a lineup with JO... I wonder if it would have been better w/ JO if Bass was in there... what I'm saying is if both lineups included Bass, I wonder which one would have been better...
Give me a lineup of AB, RR, KG, PP(healthy), and JO (healthy)... maybe it would be the best EVER lol.
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Avery bradley makes a big difference...got this stat from celtics-hub..basically, the team is better with him in the starting lineup both offensively/defensively. Basically those stats above(and the .500 record) with allen starting are similar to what we are seeing with terry starting
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/yz7fOjmsoNfAJY3gV28hq5vHj-6Qe0wOrgECBs6WieLtu9xoQQjBGSPemCJrWzpQHFznOuPSRt1GYQlMRf81L0YhzYFiiUB7Cf5UC74gzGSAaNXKcDm9)
now, alot of people might be saying "well how does one player affect the defense so much!" just look at KG when he is on/off the court...whether people want to admit it or not, bradley is an elite defender and his presence affects this team in a hugely positive way
And this "stat" (screenshot from 82games.com, by the way) conveniently forgets to include the fact that a lineup without Bradley but with Jermaine O'Neal was even better defensively, allowing a measly 0.91 points per possession.
Yea but the bad defender Bass wasn't in a lineup with JO... I wonder if it would have been better w/ JO if Bass was in there... what I'm saying is if both lineups included Bass, I wonder which one would have been better...
Give me a lineup of AB, RR, KG, PP(healthy), and JO (healthy)... maybe it would be the best EVER lol.
And yet Bass numbers wise was one of the better defenders across the entire league last year basically stats mean squat
I do agree though Avery will help us a lot
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Avery bradley makes a big difference...got this stat from celtics-hub..basically, the team is better with him in the starting lineup both offensively/defensively. Basically those stats above(and the .500 record) with allen starting are similar to what we are seeing with terry starting
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/yz7fOjmsoNfAJY3gV28hq5vHj-6Qe0wOrgECBs6WieLtu9xoQQjBGSPemCJrWzpQHFznOuPSRt1GYQlMRf81L0YhzYFiiUB7Cf5UC74gzGSAaNXKcDm9)
now, alot of people might be saying "well how does one player affect the defense so much!" just look at KG when he is on/off the court...whether people want to admit it or not, bradley is an elite defender and his presence affects this team in a hugely positive way
And this "stat" (screenshot from 82games.com, by the way) conveniently forgets to include the fact that a lineup without Bradley but with Jermaine O'Neal was even better defensively, allowing a measly 0.91 points per possession.
Yea but the bad defender Bass wasn't in a lineup with JO... I wonder if it would have been better w/ JO if Bass was in there... what I'm saying is if both lineups included Bass, I wonder which one would have been better...
Give me a lineup of AB, RR, KG, PP(healthy), and JO (healthy)... maybe it would be the best EVER lol.
And yet Bass numbers wise was one of the better defenders across the entire league last year basically stats mean squat
I do agree though Avery will help us a lot
Maybe so, I need to see those individual stats on him b/c while he got better once he learned our system (he did a really good job on Brinda in the playoffs at one point)... the eye test tells he isn't good, but my eyes have lied before. Could be a case of systems helping him, unless you have stats on him b4 coming here that say he is good...
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We are still a crazy great defensive team with KG out on the floor....we just suck without him.
And a big reason is because Rondo hasn't elevated his defensive game yet.
He still gambles too much and gets up too close letting his guy get by him.
Plus Lee hasn't been up to par defensively as projected.
We need much better perimeter defense especially when KG is not on the floor.
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I agree that Steimsma is a poor post defender. Pietrus however was nowhere near a lockdown defender last year, or this year, or the year before. He's a shadow of his former self since his knee issues, and struggled a lot on defense last year. If he was anywhere near being the lockdown defender you suggest, we would have re-signed him. Instead he sat out half the season without a contract and then signed for the vet min to be a 3rd string player on the T-wolves. If he was such a great defender plenty of contenders would have been knocking down the door trying to sign him.
Pietrus was no Avery Bradley or Tony Allen defensively, don't get me wrong. He wasn't an elite perimeter defender, he was however a very good one. He frequently took on the task of defending the opposing teams best SG/SF (including Lebron, Carmello, etc) when he was on the court, and as a general rule he did a very good job.
The thing with Pietrus is that he straight out played hard. He didn't always play well, but he put 150% effort every night. Another important factor is that he had a very good combination of size, strength and agility. He was quick enough to defend PGs and SGs, yet he was big and strong enough to defend SFs and even smaller PFs at a squeeze. He used his quickness to stay in front of guys and he used his strength to muscle them off their spots, and he was very effective at forcing people into tough or uncomfortable shots.
The reason we didn't re-sign him are:
1. He's a limited offensive player (really just a spot up shooter, and a streaky one at that)
2. He has been injury prone over the last few seasons
Doc knew we needed to get younger and more athletic. He knew he'd need much of our cap space to bring back KG, Bass and Green. After this he felt our next most important need was a legitimate 6th man (hence, Terry). By that point in time we could only afford vet minimum contracts, and Pietrus had declared he'd rather play overseas then sign for the Vet min.
The Celtics recognised a need to replace that perimeter defense, and they thought Lee would be that guy. The problem is that while Lee does have the quickness, he's not strong enough of physical enough to really hassle people the way Pietrus did. He's not the type to take charges, bump & grind and put his body on the line - he's a softer and more "finesse" type of player. When he defends he does a fairly good job of staying in front of his man with his lateral quickness, but he rarely every gets physical enough with them to force them into giving up the ball or taking a bad shot. The eye test suggests he's playing decent D, but at the end of the day his defensive assignment still manages to score. Lee's lack of strength and size means he is totally incapable of defending the bigger, stronger SFs (the Carmellos and Lebrons) in the league, let alone PFs.
Likewise Pietrus was a better team defender - Lee has not been very good at recovering on mismatches or closing out on shooters on defensive rotations. He plays OK man-to-man defense, but when there is a switch he closes out too slow and opponents tend to get wide open shots. Pietrus used to hustle and close out very well in these situations and gave up nowhere near as many baskets due to late rotations.
To be brutally honest when it comes to defense I would take either Pavlovic or Marquis over Lee. Both played better defense and were more versatile in their ability to guard multiple positions. Lee is just a dramatically overrated defender.
On the plus side Lee has the potential to be a MUCH better offensive player then either Pietrus, Marquis or Pavlovic. He's quick off the dribble, he's got a nice midrange jumper, he's lightning on the fast break and he has historically been a very good three point shooter.
Unfortunately for us I think the defensive loss has hurt us more than the offensive gain has helped.
Essentially I would say that Lee is a slightly above average on-ball defender and a below average team defender. Overall I'd say that ballances out to him being about average on defense which is fine for the second unit (he's very capable against opposing second string players) but barely adequate against starting lineups.
If the return of Bradley allows Lee to join Terry on the bench, then I think that role will suit him much better. I think he'll be a matchup problem for opposing teams on both sides of the floor when he's coming off the bench.
even if you think steamer is a poor post defender...he is still a better post defender than anyone but kg...not even close...that is an indictment of this yr's players...
Debatable. There have been times where both Sullinger and Bass have played better man-to-man low post defense then I ever say from Stiemsma. Several times I've seen both players do a very good job of bodying up and using their strength to force offensive players into difficult shots.
Unfortuantely neither Bass (low defensive IQ) or Sullinger (lack of agility) have been very good at team defense because they just don't do a good job of rotating to cover for weaknesses. Likewise the pure lack of size means that some bigger players (like Brook Lopez) can pretty much shoot staight over them, regardless of how well they defend.
I'd also say that Fab Melo is a better low post defender then Stiemsma from the limited action I've seen from him thus far. In the preseason he shows an impressive ablity to body up his defender, put his arms straight up in the air, and bother defenders with his length. He did this without moving or putting himself in the position to get a foul called against him. He played few minutes, but his lowpost defense was outstanding when he was in the game.
Collins I would argue is at least a match for Stiemsma in terms of his low post defense.
Problem with both Fab and Collins is that right now they both suck offensively, so you are basically playing 4/5 on offense whenever they are on the court. The fact that both are turnover prone only makes this worse.
The value of Stiemsma was that he didn't only block shots, he was also a decent rebounder, he scored fairly well inside and he had a pretty decent midrange jumper too. His tendancy to get into foul trouble along with his mediocre low post defense were his biggest weaknesses IMHO, but outside of those he was a remarkably solid player cosidering the low risk we took on him.
Still Stiemsma's lowpost D was pretty horrendous. Basically what it comes down to is that anytime he didn't either (1) block a shot or (2) send somebody to the line, they would score on him pretty much at will.
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And this "stat" (screenshot from 82games.com, by the way) conveniently forgets to include the fact that a lineup without Bradley but with Jermaine O'Neal was even better defensively, allowing a measly 0.91 points per possession.
True, but I'd imagine that Jermain O'neal probably hurt us offensively more than he helped us defensively.
Our offense seemed pretty horrible when he was out there - he couldn't hit a 5 footer to save his life, while Bass was giving us 12-14 PPG last season.
I'd imagine that the above lineup with Bradley + Bass was probably worse defensively then it would have been with O'neal out there, but probably still had ahigher net positive due to Bass' offensive production.
And yet Bass numbers wise was one of the better defenders across the entire league last year basically stats mean squat
I do agree though Avery will help us a lot
I find this VERY hard to believe. Not a single statistic I have looked at has suggested that he was much (if at all) above average defensively.
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even if you think steamer is a poor post defender...he is still a better post defender than anyone but kg...not even close...that is an indictment of this yr's players...
I'd actually argue that Collins, Bass and Sullinger are superior post defenders than Steimsma, they both have good footwork.
Steimsma was a great weak side shot blocker and rim protector but he was man handled in the post and teams exploited us by going at him knowing that he'd foul quickly and repeatedly- much like they're doing with Collins, who is a far superior post defender than Steimsma will ever be.
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In my opinion the Cs drop in defense has everything to do with slower rotations.
KG and Paul are another year old and another step slower.
Terry is a lot quicker than Ray but is also smaller and gives less length to the team.
Sullinger is slower and less lengthy than Stiemsma.
Green is a 3/4 and although he has great length at the 3 and average at the 4 is stuck in the middle in terms of quickness.
I still have alot of hope for this team as a defensive unit.
AB coming back will be huge.
A small trade to upgrade the bottom of the big man rotation would also be huge. This team needs to add anther player with some length. The fact that Collins is starting show cases this.
Green and Sully seems to be making small steps in the right direction.
Come playoff time i dont expect this D to be elite but at least much better than they have been to start the season
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even if you think steamer is a poor post defender...he is still a better post defender than anyone but kg...not even close...that is an indictment of this yr's players...
I'd actually argue that Collins, Bass and Sullinger are superior post defenders than Steimsma, they both have good footwork.
Steimsma was a great weak side shot blocker and rim protector but he was man handled in the post and teams exploited us by going at him knowing that he'd foul quickly and repeatedly- much like they're doing with Collins, who is a far superior post defender than Steimsma will ever be.
Yeah Steimsma was prone to fouling and getting pushed around in the post. Some of that was rookie inexperience and rookie whistles, but a lot was that he wasn't as strong as many NBA Cs.
His real value was his overall shot blocking and credible paint protection, not his one on one post defense.
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let's put it this way...would you ever put the phrase "post defender" in the same sentence as bass, green, wilcox, sullinger, collins...maybe collins...at best...
Excuse me, but the only thing Collins really does is post defense (as in, one-on-one, back to the basket, post-up defense). Too bad that's just a tiny component of playing center in the NBA.
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I am not a fan of trying to attribute the difference in defense by putting ratings on the individual players for 2 reasons.
First of all, those ratings are VERY subjective, and I think in many cases are colored by how the team is playing this year versus last year.
Second, the problem has had a lot more to do with team play than individuals IMO. You can have better defensive players, but if they don't know the system or click together, then you are not going to have a good defensive team.
Last year, the C's came together as a well oiled defensive machine down the stretch. They became greater than the sum of the parts. This year, they have been less than the sum of the parts.
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I am not a fan of trying to attribute the difference in defense by putting ratings on the individual players for 2 reasons.
First of all, those ratings are VERY subjective, and I think in many cases are colored by how the team is playing this year versus last year.
Second, the problem has had a lot more to do with team play than individuals IMO. You can have better defensive players, but if they don't know the system or click together, then you are not going to have a good defensive team.
Last year, the C's came together as a well oiled defensive machine down the stretch. They became greater than the sum of the parts. This year, they have been less than the sum of the parts.
I agree. The positive is that they've shown flashes of still being able to play that kind of defensive and that this is a correctable thing.
I feel confident that by season's end the Celtics will be where they belong--as a top five defensive team in the league.
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Just keeping it real…I don’t necessarily buy the they need time to gel
2011-2012 Roster New Additions(9)
Brandon Bass - Starter
Keyon Dooling - Rotation Player
Ryan Hollins - Rotation Player
Jajuan Johnson
E’twaun Moore
Mickael Pietrus - Rotation Player
Greg Stiemsma - Rotation Player
Chris Wilcox - Rotation Player
Sean Williams
Note:
Avery Bradley, Marquis Daniels, Jermaine O’Neil, Sasha Pavlovic were all limited in playing time for various reasons in 2010-2011
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Just keeping it real…I don’t necessarily buy the they need time to gel
2011-2012 Roster New Additions(9)
Brandon Bass - Starter
Keyon Dooling - Rotation Player
Ryan Hollins - Rotation Player
Jajuan Johnson
E’twaun Moore
Mickael Pietrus - Rotation Player
Greg Stiemsma - Rotation Player
Chris Wilcox - Rotation Player
Sean Williams
Note:
Avery Bradley, Marquis Daniels, Jermaine O’Neil, Sasha Pavlovic were all limited in playing time for various reasons in 2010-2011
Look back at their record in the first half of the season last year. They were pretty terrible for the first half of the season, and it took them a long time to gel.
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In my opinion the Cs drop in defense has everything to do with slower rotations.
While guys not rotating may have something to do with it, I think it's far more simple. I think it's more about not simply enough pressure on the ball and players not working hard enough to get around screens. No defense is going to hold up if players are constantly having to make that 3rd and 4th rotation.
I also suspect that the slow, grind-it-out offense Boston has fallen more and more into the last few years has something to do with it. It's a truism that guys who get involved offensively will give you better effort defensively. Likewise, when you're in an offense where you stand around for 18 to 20 seconds setting screens and getting yelled at about "spacing", that's probably not a great motivator on the other end of the court.
Mike
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i'm not saying this is an exact science but i would bet you that they were allowing less points per game in the first 25 games last year than the first 25 games this year...record not withstanding...let's face it...this is the worst defensive team of the kg era...no matter how you slice it...albeit so far...i still hope and believe they will improve...to elite status?...maybe with bradley's return...
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Thru 27 games
2012 – 2013
Record: 14 – 13
Pts allowed per game: 97.0 (+ 6.63)
2011 – 2012
Record: 15 – 12
Pts allowed per game: 90.37 (- 6.63)
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Note: 2011 - 2012 Celtics lost their next 5 games after Game #27...during that 5 game losing streak they gave up 98.2 pts per game...if history has anything to say about this...this next stretch is critical!