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Celtics Basketball => Celtics Talk => Topic started by: mr. dee on December 19, 2012, 08:42:25 PM

Title: Should Doc play Collins alongside with KG?
Post by: mr. dee on December 19, 2012, 08:42:25 PM
He is a poor man's Perk ,I know. But he provides size and clogs the paint. He can also slow down big guys.

But knowing Doc, he will stick with small ball.
Title: Re: Should Doc play Collins alongside with KG?
Post by: Celtics4ever on December 19, 2012, 09:58:26 PM
Did you watch the game tonight?  Death to small ball!
Title: Re: Should Doc play Collins alongside with KG?
Post by: Edgar on December 19, 2012, 10:01:13 PM
And Collins for President!!!

jason Collins is my boy

He clogged the lane almost perfect
helped team D
Play screens
Helped provoke turnovers
Send KG to cover his man
Foul people like a man
and give 6 amazing fouls to the team playing till the 4th

The answer is a LOUD YES!!
Title: Re: Should Doc play Collins alongside with KG?
Post by: cman88 on December 19, 2012, 10:02:25 PM
it may be because it was cleveland, but the defense looked ALOT better with Collins playing the 5 spot. amazing how ANY defensive center(even collins) makes the D look better

a shame we still dont have darko..I would like him as the starting center alot better
Title: Re: Should Doc play Collins alongside with KG?
Post by: Boston Garden Leprechaun on December 19, 2012, 10:09:56 PM
it may be because it was cleveland, but the defense looked ALOT better with Collins playing the 5 spot. amazing how ANY defensive center(even collins) makes the D look better

a shame we still dont have darko..I would like him as the starting center alot better

agreed but let's pray collins works out. he is usually hot garbage. I would still like Gortat though. gortat and KG start and wilcox and collins after them. move wilcox to the natural 4 spot.
Title: Re: Should Doc play Collins alongside with KG?
Post by: snively on December 19, 2012, 10:10:34 PM
No way.  Collins benefited from spending all of his time with a red hot Pierce, Terry and Rondo against a horrible Cleveland frontline (and team).  He was frequently too slow to rotate to Zeller's jumper, gave up several offensive boards, struggled to rotate quickly to dribble penetration and fouled 6 times in under 24 minutes, several times for and 1's.

If he's playing a major role on the team when it matters, we are in serious trouble.
Title: Re: Should Doc play Collins alongside with KG?
Post by: Edgar on December 19, 2012, 10:11:33 PM
it may be because it was cleveland, but the defense looked ALOT better with Collins playing the 5 spot. amazing how ANY defensive center(even collins) makes the D look better

a shame we still dont have darko..I would like him as the starting center alot better

agreed but let's pray collins works out. he is usually hot garbage. I would still like Gortat though. gortat and KG start and wilcox and collins after them. move wilcox to the natural 4 spot.

Darko idk, Gortat most likely as much as Varejao will be more consistant and better than Collins but for now, i am pretty much happy with this Juggernaut old Classy defendder who knows his job and his role
Title: Re: Should Doc play Collins alongside with KG?
Post by: Boston Garden Leprechaun on December 19, 2012, 10:16:03 PM
it may be because it was cleveland, but the defense looked ALOT better with Collins playing the 5 spot. amazing how ANY defensive center(even collins) makes the D look better

a shame we still dont have darko..I would like him as the starting center alot better

agreed but let's pray collins works out. he is usually hot garbage. I would still like Gortat though. gortat and KG start and wilcox and collins after them. move wilcox to the natural 4 spot.

Darko idk, Gortat most likely as much as Varejao will be more consistant and better than Collins but for now, i am pretty much happy with this Juggernaut old Classy defendder who knows his job and his role

yep. i am trying to find a glimmer of hope right now like most of us.
Title: Re: Should Doc play Collins alongside with KG?
Post by: Edgar on December 19, 2012, 10:19:26 PM
it may be because it was cleveland, but the defense looked ALOT better with Collins playing the 5 spot. amazing how ANY defensive center(even collins) makes the D look better

a shame we still dont have darko..I would like him as the starting center alot better

agreed but let's pray collins works out. he is usually hot garbage. I would still like Gortat though. gortat and KG start and wilcox and collins after them. move wilcox to the natural 4 spot.

Darko idk, Gortat most likely as much as Varejao will be more consistant and better than Collins but for now, i am pretty much happy with this Juggernaut old Classy defendder who knows his job and his role

yep. i am trying to find a glimmer of hope right now like most of us.


Theres one:


Pierce +29  Rondo +22 Collins +23

yes thats what deffese do

 ;D
Title: Re: Should Doc play Collins alongside with KG?
Post by: Fafnir on December 19, 2012, 10:20:32 PM
I'm not a fan, not against most match ups. Against a limited Cleveland PF/C combo it worked well enough I suppose. Maybe if we want to keep KG off a bigger guy to start the game.
Title: Re: Should Doc play Collins alongside with KG?
Post by: Edgar on December 19, 2012, 10:22:33 PM
I'm not a fan, not against most match ups. Against a limited Cleveland PF/C combo it worked well enough I suppose. Maybe if we want to keep KG off a bigger guy to start the game.

I think this is why Doc did it be4 or after knowing Varejao was out , but he managed Zeller ( who was as hot as anyone tonight)
HE also played great clogging the lane for small guys
Title: Re: Should Doc play Collins alongside with KG?
Post by: Fafnir on December 19, 2012, 10:26:56 PM
I'm not a fan, not against most match ups. Against a limited Cleveland PF/C combo it worked well enough I suppose. Maybe if we want to keep KG off a bigger guy to start the game.

I think this is why Doc did it be4 or after knowing Varejao was out , but he managed Zeller ( who was as hot as anyone tonight)
HE also played great clogging the lane for small guys
We gave up 13 offensive rebounds and Zeller scored 20.

I don't see it. Collins played okay defense, but he doesn't do anything else for you. No scoring, no rebounds, no passing, nothing else.
Title: Re: Should Doc play Collins alongside with KG?
Post by: PhoSita on December 19, 2012, 10:36:39 PM
Starting Wilcox at either big spot would make more sense.

Collins didn't really actually help our defense that much.  He doesn't rebound, and he can't score.  He's the center version of Scal.  Maybe he adds some things with intangibles and not doing anything really dumb, but that's about it.

Starting Collins just shows how desperate Doc is to try to give this team some size and a new kind of look.  Collins should not get rotation minutes on a healthy, decent team.
Title: Re: Should Doc play Collins alongside with KG?
Post by: Edgar on December 19, 2012, 10:39:25 PM
I'm not a fan, not against most match ups. Against a limited Cleveland PF/C combo it worked well enough I suppose. Maybe if we want to keep KG off a bigger guy to start the game.

I think this is why Doc did it be4 or after knowing Varejao was out , but he managed Zeller ( who was as hot as anyone tonight)
HE also played great clogging the lane for small guys
We gave up 13 offensive rebounds and Zeller scored 20.

I don't see it. Collins played okay defense, but he doesn't do anything else for you. No scoring, no rebounds, no passing, nothing else.

as I pointed somewhere else, hes a bigger scal without the  offensive power (lol) scal used to have
u know
sometimes its not in the Numbers
pressure, deffense, boxing , positioning. No numbers
as they used to say
untangibles


and I didnt read the Posita comment before posting the Scal part , and yes its an answer to desperation sadly
but right now he fit a role.
And No starting wilcox would not make more sense because he cant deffend like Collins do
Title: Re: Should Doc play Collins alongside with KG?
Post by: LarBrd33 on December 19, 2012, 11:00:14 PM
amazing you can put a total stiff like Jason COllins into our lineup and it actually makes a difference.  Just goes to show you how flawed this roster is.  We haven't been the same since Shaq hobbled off the court.  Clearly landing a legit big man for some of our assets would make a big improvement.
Title: Re: Should Doc play Collins alongside with KG?
Post by: Edgar on December 19, 2012, 11:03:34 PM
not only a difference
an important difference
and yes of course a legit big is the missing piece.

while you dont have it, please play the deffensive big over the offensive sub par tweeners and offensive i cant guard my player bigs, and see if we can play over .500 ball
Title: Re: Should Doc play Collins alongside with KG?
Post by: hpantazo on December 19, 2012, 11:03:43 PM
amazing you can put a total stiff like Jason COllins into our lineup and it actually makes a difference.  Just goes to show you how flawed this roster is.  We haven't been the same since Shaq hobbled off the court.  Clearly landing a legit big man for some of our assets would make a big improvement.

That's exactly right, and the biggest reason why we should trade our assets to get a legit starting big man. It makes a huge impact on the rest of our starters. An old Shaq, the corpe of JO, even Semih Erden all made a big difference. Imagine what a player like Gortat or even Dalembert would do .
Title: Re: Should Doc play Collins alongside with KG?
Post by: Edgar on December 19, 2012, 11:05:08 PM
and yes hopefully danny will try to get Andy now.

not a Gortat fan .... I wont say no to him either
Title: Re: Should Doc play Collins alongside with KG?
Post by: SHAQATTACK on December 19, 2012, 11:41:08 PM
Collins made a difference,  just being in the game and being a person to help clog up the paint.

I feel like Fab Melo should be able to play as well as Collins now, if not better soon.  Melo is a lot more active and threat to block a shot.

The Celtics just FLAT out are missing a center.  Plain and simple.


PLEASE DANNY ...TRADE FOR Varejao  ...PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE.
Title: Re: Should Doc play Collins alongside with KG?
Post by: crimson_stallion on December 20, 2012, 07:46:15 AM
I swear to everybody here that if Doc plays Fab instead of Collins in those minutes he will be a better player for us - at least after a 5-10 game window for him to get his feet wet.
Title: Re: Should Doc play Collins alongside with KG?
Post by: pearljammer10 on December 20, 2012, 08:24:39 AM
Did you watch the game tonight?  Death to small ball!

We can only hope!
Title: Re: Should Doc play Collins alongside with KG?
Post by: Moranis on December 20, 2012, 08:36:36 AM
amazing you can put a total stiff like Jason COllins into our lineup and it actually makes a difference.  Just goes to show you how flawed this roster is.  We haven't been the same since Shaq hobbled off the court.  Clearly landing a legit big man for some of our assets would make a big improvement.
We have exactly 5 assets: Garnett, Pierce, Rondo, Bradley, and Sullinger.  The first 3 aren't going to be moved unless it is an incredibly major deal and the last two don't have a ton of value as Bradley is always hurt and Sullinger is a rookie and neither has a large contract (thus would have to leave with a bad contract shrinking their value even more).  Boston isn't going to be able to add much of anything and is pretty much stuck with this team unless it can add another bad contract/headache. 
Title: Re: Should Doc play Collins alongside with KG?
Post by: mgent on December 20, 2012, 08:57:48 AM
I don't mind Collins but I don't see how anybody could like him.  He's certainly no Perk, in terms of offense, rebounding, passing, toughness, setting picks, or defense.  To even call him a poor man's Perk is a pretty hopeful comparison.

Maybe a change of scenery could jolt our team back where they're supposed to be, but it won't be because of his basketball skills.  Just simply not a starting caliber.
Title: Re: Should Doc play Collins alongside with KG?
Post by: Celtics18 on December 20, 2012, 09:43:53 AM
I really liked Collins in the starting lineup.  I'm hoping Doc stays with it.
Title: Re: Should Doc play Collins alongside with KG?
Post by: Kane3387 on December 20, 2012, 09:48:28 AM
It was Cleveland without Verajao. It wasn't that impressive of a win. Nothing out there made me think we found something with the lineup change.
Title: Re: Should Doc play Collins alongside with KG?
Post by: Celtics18 on December 20, 2012, 10:01:06 AM
It was Cleveland without Verajao. It wasn't that impressive of a win. Nothing out there made me think we found something with the lineup change.

Sure, we beat a bad team, but I saw enough to try it against good teams. 
Title: Re: Should Doc play Collins alongside with KG?
Post by: Celtics4ever on December 20, 2012, 11:47:54 AM
Yeah, I want to see it versus a good team.   Rotations seemed better because we had a back up defender and despite his bad stats he clogged up space.
Title: Re: Should Doc play Collins alongside with KG?
Post by: Yoki_IsTheName on December 20, 2012, 11:54:03 AM
I'd love to. Having two guys, one a shot altering presence, the other is a no nonsense banger will help our interior defense from start of games.
Title: Re: Should Doc play Collins alongside with KG?
Post by: Edgar on December 20, 2012, 12:25:32 PM
It was Cleveland without Verajao. It wasn't that impressive of a win. Nothing out there made me think we found something with the lineup change.

Well Zeller was killing us while Collins was out
and
Worse team already beat us this year so I will be happy with positive signs

Not to mention  Roseless bulls beat us.
Title: Re: Should Doc play Collins alongside with KG?
Post by: j804 on December 20, 2012, 12:36:04 PM
I really liked Collins in the starting lineup.  I'm hoping Doc stays with it.
Collins was HUGE don't care that it was just Cleveland and it goes beyond Varejao missing the game. If you can't see all the little things Collins did to help us win then you're not paying attention.

He set hard screens gave hard fouls when he needed to and was always at the right spot. His length and just big body being down there clogged the lane so it wasn't a layup drill like it feels at times down low. He showed when he had to and changed shots as well.
Title: Re: Should Doc play Collins alongside with KG?
Post by: TripleOT on December 20, 2012, 12:52:51 PM
I spent some time last night focusing on Collins at the defensive end.  He's very good at positioning his big frame, either to box someone out, or to veer a cutter or dribbler off his course. 

You can deride his other skills, maybe rightfully so, but he the Cs scored 23 more points than the Cavs in his 23 minutes.  No shots, one FT, one steal one block and 4 body slams of Cavs players. It was nice seeing the other team's players kit the floor for a change.

I hope he continues to get starts.  KG needs to play next to a big body to stay  fresh.  Bass gets to come off the bench, which is a better role for him. 
Title: Re: Should Doc play Collins alongside with KG?
Post by: Edgar on December 20, 2012, 04:08:55 PM
I spent some time last night focusing on Collins at the defensive end.  He's very good at positioning his big frame, either to box someone out, or to veer a cutter or dribbler off his course. 

You can deride his other skills, maybe rightfully so, but he the Cs scored 23 more points than the Cavs in his 23 minutes.  No shots, one FT, one steal one block and 4 body slams of Cavs players. It was nice seeing the other team's players kit the floor for a change.

I hope he continues to get starts.  KG needs to play next to a big body to stay  fresh.  Bass gets to come off the bench, which is a better role for him.

I wrote this for TripleOT but dont let him read that I said that.
Title: Re: Should Doc play Collins alongside with KG?
Post by: Fafnir on December 20, 2012, 04:13:44 PM
It was Cleveland without Verajao. It wasn't that impressive of a win. Nothing out there made me think we found something with the lineup change.

Well Zeller was killing us while Collins was out
and
Worse team already beat us this year so I will be happy with positive signs

Not to mention  Roseless bulls beat us.
Zeller scored 15 points on 7-10 FGA with 3 rebounds while Collins was on the court with him. Over 23 minutes.

With Collins off the court he got zero rebounds scored 5 points on 2-5 FGA in 13 minutes
Title: Re: Should Doc play Collins alongside with KG?
Post by: kozlodoev on December 20, 2012, 05:10:06 PM
It was Cleveland without Verajao. It wasn't that impressive of a win. Nothing out there made me think we found something with the lineup change.

Well Zeller was killing us while Collins was out
and
Worse team already beat us this year so I will be happy with positive signs

Not to mention  Roseless bulls beat us.
Zeller scored 15 points on 7-10 FGA with 3 rebounds while Collins was on the court with him. Over 23 minutes.

With Collins off the court he got zero rebounds scored 5 points on 2-5 FGA in 13 minutes
Yeah, Collins is not going to help you against a guy who likes to step back and take the jumper.
Title: Re: Should Doc play Collins alongside with KG?
Post by: ImShakHeIsShaq on December 20, 2012, 05:26:38 PM
It was Cleveland without Verajao. It wasn't that impressive of a win. Nothing out there made me think we found something with the lineup change.

Well Zeller was killing us while Collins was out
and
Worse team already beat us this year so I will be happy with positive signs

Not to mention  Roseless bulls beat us.
Zeller scored 15 points on 7-10 FGA with 3 rebounds while Collins was on the court with him. Over 23 minutes.

With Collins off the court he got zero rebounds scored 5 points on 2-5 FGA in 13 minutes

I knew someone would argue this point but how many of those were dunks? He was given those shots, he was hot, and he hit them... I'm sure they would give Zeller those shots again. If you take that alone you would think Collins stunk up the joint. Thing is, there are more things to look at and Collins had a very good game! He was setting very good picks (hard ones) and he played very good team defense (which allowed KG to not have to worry about helping 3 other people off of his man). When Collins and RR was in there Irving wasn't doing much of anything the entire game, only when they went out did he start killing us (once you let someone like him get hot it's not much you can do)... RR was playing the same defense he usually does but the difference was another big out there knowing what to do, that allowed RR to just be himself. Collins did the little things, I know it's hard to get past stats though... good thing his teammates appreciate what he did (they gave him the game ball even with PP's explosion)!


Now if we put a guy like Verejao or Gortat in there instead, wow could that do wonders for us! I just don't want AB in those packages.

No one is suggesting Collins is amazing but if you actually watched the game you would see that he had a really good game doing EXACTLY what was asked of him (a guy that has RARELY even sniffed the court this entire season)!
Title: Re: Should Doc play Collins alongside with KG?
Post by: Fafnir on December 20, 2012, 05:36:11 PM
I wouldn't give Zeller those shots again, too many in his sweet spots. He's very comfortable taking wide open jumpers from 15ish feet, especially baseline that was his spot in college. Now if you push him out to KG's range of 20 feet then he's out of his comfort zone.

He took 10 jump shots and 5 shots right in the paint.

Collins was fine, did what was expected of him and played within the team. But he wasn't a difference maker.
Title: Re: Should Doc play Collins alongside with KG?
Post by: blink on December 20, 2012, 05:41:51 PM
Sure Collins had a decent game.  He hustled, played solid, but not great D.  But he is too much of a liability on the other end to be a good long term solution. 

He isn't a great rebounder, isn't much of a threat to score, ever.  I like it that Doc was willing to shake things up a bit to see what sticks.  But we need a better big than Collins if we are going to get past the 1st round of the playoffs.

Title: Re: Should Doc play Collins alongside with KG?
Post by: Fafnir on December 20, 2012, 05:42:51 PM
Sure Collins had a decent game.  He hustled, played solid, but not great D.  But he is too much of a liability on the other end to be a good long term solution. 

He isn't a great rebounder, isn't much of a threat to score, ever.  I like it that Doc was willing to shake things up a bit to see what sticks.  But we need a better big than Collins if we are going to get past the 1st round of the playoffs.
He's not just "not great", he's legimately terrible rebounder. He does a solid job of team rebounding in boxing out, but he won't get the ball for you ever really.
Title: Re: Should Doc play Collins alongside with KG?
Post by: TripleOT on December 20, 2012, 05:46:45 PM
It was Cleveland without Verajao. It wasn't that impressive of a win. Nothing out there made me think we found something with the lineup change.

Well Zeller was killing us while Collins was out
and
Worse team already beat us this year so I will be happy with positive signs

Not to mention  Roseless bulls beat us.
Zeller scored 15 points on 7-10 FGA with 3 rebounds while Collins was on the court with him. Over 23 minutes.

With Collins off the court he got zero rebounds scored 5 points on 2-5 FGA in 13 minutes

All those jumpers led Zeller to a hefty minus 17 in his 36 minutes, second worst to gee's -21. 

Collins isn't the ideal guy to try to hang with a center who shoots 20 footers.  However, in those 23 minutes Collins played, the Cavs got outscored by 23 points. Feel free to bomb away, young Mr. Zeller.  You might want to learn how to do something else, though.  A rebound every 12 minutes ins't going to cut it, nor is letting KG get to his spots and rain turnaround jumpers on your head.       
Title: Re: Should Doc play Collins alongside with KG?
Post by: mmmmm on December 20, 2012, 06:16:57 PM
I'm not a fan, not against most match ups. Against a limited Cleveland PF/C combo it worked well enough I suppose. Maybe if we want to keep KG off a bigger guy to start the game.

I think this is why Doc did it be4 or after knowing Varejao was out , but he managed Zeller ( who was as hot as anyone tonight)
HE also played great clogging the lane for small guys
We gave up 13 offensive rebounds and Zeller scored 20.

I don't see it. Collins played okay defense, but he doesn't do anything else for you. No scoring, no rebounds, no passing, nothing else.

Well ... keep in mind that Cleveland missed 52 shots (they shot a horrid 40.9%).   That they grabbed 13 isn't exactly all that impressive - just 25%.   That's well below CLE's season avg of 31.1% - somewhat indicative of AV's absence, but also consistent with Collin's effect on his past teams (low personal DRBs, but high team DRB%).

On the flip side, the fact that we grabbed only 2 of our mere 23 misses is also low for us, though only two nicer bounces of the ball would have put us at our season average (our team ORB% is 19.2% this year).  That is probably indicative of Collins' eating a little into the minutes of the Sully/Bass/Wilcox trio, since they are the only guys on the team who routinely go after ORBs.   Collins is a pick setter on offense - he's not going to be crashing the boards or doing post-up so he's not going to be in position to grab ORBs.

Title: Re: Should Doc play Collins alongside with KG?
Post by: OttawaCeltic on December 20, 2012, 06:47:08 PM
IVE ALWAYS BEEN A FAN OF COLLINS SINCE HIS ARRIVAL (note my pic lol) Collins is a ceritfied starter for this team. He is already great at Defence(remember KG vs Collins in the Semis? He did an amazing job), and now as we already know, playing beside KG will give him more of an upside. Yeah i know his stats didnt look so good, but give him time to adjust!

#StartJCollinsDoc
Title: Re: Should Doc play Collins alongside with KG?
Post by: Fafnir on December 20, 2012, 08:04:15 PM
Pierce scores 40 points on 16 shots and Collins is getting credit for us creaming the Cavs with our starters?  ???

Zeller was -17 largely because he was on the court as Pierce destroyed them over and over again. I do agree Zeller didn't have an awesome game by any means, but neither did Collins!
Title: Re: Should Doc play Collins alongside with KG?
Post by: Edgar on December 20, 2012, 08:13:58 PM
Hey hey hey

I am not saying Collins is the next coming of Andres Varejao
but
with him as starter (andy) I can live with collins as out eternal backup center and be a fan of him while hes at it


And yes jumpshots fall bue also got a couple of important stops and help d. jeesh