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Celtics Basketball => Celtics Talk => Topic started by: Lightskinsmurf on December 19, 2012, 07:02:35 PM

Title: Collins To Start At Center Moves KG Back To The 4.
Post by: Lightskinsmurf on December 19, 2012, 07:02:35 PM
What do you guys think about this? I'm just excited to see doc do something that's not so predictable for once. Lets see how this plays out.
Title: Re: Collins To Start At Center Moves KG Back To The 4.
Post by: Eddie20 on December 19, 2012, 07:05:52 PM
Weird. This means that either Sully, Bass, or Wilcox will be on the outside looking in.

Now I really wish Darko were still here. He'd be a definite upgrade over Collins.

Title: Re: Collins To Start At Center Moves KG Back To The 4.
Post by: Lightskinsmurf on December 19, 2012, 07:06:56 PM
A little weird definitely but something to look out for tonight. Also forgot to mention terry is in the starting lineup again.
Title: Re: Collins To Start At Center Moves KG Back To The 4.
Post by: Edgar on December 19, 2012, 07:07:18 PM
I can live with that
Title: Re: Collins To Start At Center Moves KG Back To The 4.
Post by: Celts Fan 92 on December 19, 2012, 07:10:19 PM
Link? Collins is so offensively challenged tho i wouldnt want dis lineup all da time
Title: Re: Collins To Start At Center Moves KG Back To The 4.
Post by: crownontherocks on December 19, 2012, 07:11:34 PM
Link? Collins is so offensively challenged tho i wouldnt want dis lineup all da time


The Celtics will start Jason Collins at C on Wednesday and move Kevin Garnett back to PF.
The swap means Brandon Bass heads back to the bench as Doc Rivers tries to get the Celtics going. Collins' starting role is unlikely to change his minimal fantasy impact. However, the swap should be enough for Bass owners in 12-14 team leagues to part ways with the PF for any worthwhile free agent.
Related: Kevin Garnett, Brandon Bass
Source: Mike Petraglia on Twitter Dec 19 - 6:54 PM
Title: Re: Collins To Start At Center Moves KG Back To The 4.
Post by: Edgar on December 19, 2012, 07:13:48 PM
Link? Collins is so offensively challenged tho i wouldnt want dis lineup all da time


The Celtics will start Jason Collins at C on Wednesday and move Kevin Garnett back to PF.
The swap means Brandon Bass heads back to the bench as Doc Rivers tries to get the Celtics going. Collins' starting role is unlikely to change his minimal fantasy impact. However, the swap should be enough for Bass owners in 12-14 team leagues to part ways with the PF for any worthwhile free agent.
Related: Kevin Garnett, Brandon Bass
Source: Mike Petraglia on Twitter Dec 19 - 6:54 PM


lol
KG will be hot in fantasy this week specially if we win today

p.s. I think is an intelligent move against varejao
Title: Re: Collins To Start At Center Moves KG Back To The 4.
Post by: ScoobyDoo on December 19, 2012, 07:14:20 PM
It's not like what we're doing is crushing all comers. All for "any" change to mix it up. Let Collins get his minutes early.

Personally, I'd have done it a long time ago:

Collins
KG
Pierce
Lee
Rondo

Wilcox
Bass or Sully
Green
Barbosa (off guard)
Jet (Point Guard - let him run some pick and roll, plays where he can pull up for mid range jumpers off the dribble.

I don't like the "Jet" starting. He's been a bench guy for six years, leave him in that position. Plus with our rebounding woes, he makes us even smaller in the back court when playing with the starting unit.

But I would also bring Fab Melo up and let him get his backside handed to him about every three games just for fun. Again we ARE NOT world beaters at the moment.

Make it simple for Melo - no layups by the other team, none. - that's all you need to focus on. Protect the basket and lay some people out - three good, hard clean fouls in about 10 minutes of playing time would be optimal.

Who knows, in the process of laying people out and protecting the rim, he might block a few shots, alter a few others and grab a few rebounds.

Oh, I'd give him one other directive: I expect you to beat every big man on the floor - including KG if he's out there - yeah the 37 year old - up and down the court bo5th ways, every play. I say KG as well because I notice that he still seems to beat most other big men in the league up and down the court still - foul line to foul line. Amazing.   
Title: Re: Collins To Start At Center Moves KG Back To The 4.
Post by: Edgar on December 19, 2012, 07:15:35 PM
This game its not bad at all to play collins
Let Varejao fight for his rebounds and Let KG be a little rested against talented youg players

I like

p.s. Courtesy of Thristyboots18  ( If Varejao doent play tonight the trade is IN  ;)   )
Title: Re: Collins To Start At Center Moves KG Back To The 4.
Post by: Who on December 19, 2012, 07:16:24 PM
No ... this is only something to be done against physical power-based teams like Memphis and the Lakers.

Jason Collins should not be a regular starter. He is too limited a player. He'll do more harm than good to the team in this role.
Title: Re: Collins To Start At Center Moves KG Back To The 4.
Post by: ImShakHeIsShaq on December 19, 2012, 07:17:27 PM
It's not like what we're doing is crushing all comers. All for "any" change to mix it up. Let Collins get his minutes early.

Personally, I'd have done it a long time ago:

Collins
KG
Pierce
Lee
Rondo

Wilcox
Bass or Sully
Green
Barbosa (off guard)
Jet (Point Guard - let him run some pick and roll, plays where he can pull up for mid range jumpers off the dribble.

I don't like the "Jet" starting. He's been a bench guy for six years, leave him in that position. Plus with our rebounding woes, he makes us even smaller in the back court when playing with the starting unit.

But I would also bring Fab Melo up and let him get his backside handed to him about every three games just for fun. Again we ARE NOT world beaters at the moment.

Make it simple for Melo - no layups by the other team, none. - that's all you need to focus on. Protect the basket and lay some people out - three good, hard clean fouls in about 10 minutes of playing time would be optimal.

Who knows, in the process of laying people out and protecting the rim, he might block a few shots, alter a few others and grab a few rebounds.

Oh, I'd give him one other directive: I expect you to beat every big man on the floor - including KG if he's out there - yeah the 37 year old - up and down the court bo5th ways, every play. I say KG as well because I notice that he still seems to beat most other big men in the league up and down the court still - foul line to foul line. Amazing.


Jet won't be starting after AB comes back (Doc said it pregame) but he has to now b/c he needs RR (or be with Lee) because (per Doc) he needs to be more involved in the offense and the second unit has no one to help him on that front.
Title: Re: Collins To Start At Center Moves KG Back To The 4.
Post by: Roy H. on December 19, 2012, 07:19:14 PM
I wish Darko was still around.  He's simply better than Collins, who is perhaps the worst offensive player in the entire NBA, and is among the worst rebounding 7-footers.
Title: Re: Collins To Start At Center Moves KG Back To The 4.
Post by: Boston Garden Leprechaun on December 19, 2012, 07:21:44 PM
Weird. This means that either Sully, Bass, or Wilcox will be on the outside looking in.

Now I really wish Darko were still here. He'd be a definite upgrade over Collins.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^this^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

collins is HOT GARBAGE 
Title: Re: Collins To Start At Center Moves KG Back To The 4.
Post by: timobusa on December 19, 2012, 07:23:13 PM
Shoulda started Wilcox instead. Or Darko, welp, he's gone now, Should have done this earlier
Title: Re: Collins To Start At Center Moves KG Back To The 4.
Post by: jambr380 on December 19, 2012, 07:27:19 PM
I wish Darko was still around.  He's simply better than Collins, who is perhaps the worst offensive player in the entire NBA, and is among the worst rebounding 7-footers.

Yeah, it is really unfortunate we couldn't make things work with Darko. He is clearly a better player. Now we have about 4 pfs and Collins - great!  :-\
Title: Re: Collins To Start At Center Moves KG Back To The 4.
Post by: relja on December 19, 2012, 07:35:12 PM
Varejao is out tonight lol
Title: Re: Collins To Start At Center Moves KG Back To The 4.
Post by: rocknrollforyoursoul on December 19, 2012, 07:47:36 PM
Don't like Terry starting. He's used to being sixth man, and he'll be there once Bradley's back. If Doc wants Terry to be more involved (I think we all do), he should give Terry free rein to run the pick and roll and create for himself and others.

Collins is a big body ... that's about the only positive thing I have to say about that. I wish Doc would give Wilcox more minutes.
Title: Re: Collins To Start At Center Moves KG Back To The 4.
Post by: ScottHow on December 19, 2012, 07:53:38 PM
Id rather have Sulllllllllllllllly!!!
Title: Re: Collins To Start At Center Moves KG Back To The 4.
Post by: LooseCannon on December 19, 2012, 07:59:21 PM
Don't like Terry starting.

Don't like Lee starting, either.
Title: Re: Collins To Start At Center Moves KG Back To The 4.
Post by: PhoSita on December 19, 2012, 08:00:30 PM
I'd much prefer to start Wilcox at the 4.
Title: Re: Collins To Start At Center Moves KG Back To The 4.
Post by: Tr1boy on December 19, 2012, 10:40:05 PM
I'd much prefer to start Wilcox at the 4.

but it won't work bc kg has to play center. And he is not a Center. There are still lots of good centers in the league. Miami is like the only team that can get away playing small ball basketbal
Title: Re: Collins To Start At Center Moves KG Back To The 4.
Post by: Edgar on December 19, 2012, 10:48:55 PM
I'd much prefer to start Wilcox at the 4.

but it won't work bc kg has to play center. And he is not a Center. There are still lots of good centers in the league. Miami is like the only team that can get away playing small ball basketbal

and bc Wilcox cant deffend a chair
Title: Re: Collins To Start At Center Moves KG Back To The 4.
Post by: pearljammer10 on December 19, 2012, 11:37:43 PM
I really couldnt figure out why Collins was starting tonight. Hey, it was nice to see a legit lineup (size wise) start the game for once though.
Title: Re: Collins To Start At Center Moves KG Back To The 4.
Post by: SHAQATTACK on December 19, 2012, 11:45:45 PM
Melo can play as well as Collins right now . 

Collins helped KG , I thought,  he stood in there to clog the dribble penetration.

Varejao would be Sooooooooooooooooo useful to this team. We need his rebounds, interior defense and garbage buckets when Sully isn't in there.

Danny ...PLEASE TRADE for Varejao   ;D

Title: Re: Collins To Start At Center Moves KG Back To The 4.
Post by: Edgar on December 19, 2012, 11:49:50 PM
Melo can play as well as Collins right now . 

Collins helped KG , I thought,  he stood in there to clog the dribble penetration.

Varejao would be Sooooooooooooooooo useful to this team. We need his rebounds, interior defense and garbage buckets when Sully isn't in there.

Danny ...PLEASE TRADE for Varejao   ;D

Co signed
Title: Re: Collins To Start At Center Moves KG Back To The 4.
Post by: SHAQATTACK on December 20, 2012, 12:03:07 AM
Wilcox 's game is more offensive , he gets abused under bucket by guards in the lane , they aren't afraid of him. Wilcox plays a bit soft ... nice guy and he gets abused by smaller guys.

Collins size , is enought to make most guys think hard about how bad they want that interior shot. And all he is doing is moving around the paint area. A good center would make a night and day diff in the Celtics.

Gortat would help , no doubt, but , I can really see Varejao fitting  in with the mindset of this team.  A faster paced , where Anderson doesn't have to carry an offensive load, but can roam like Noah and disrupt the opposing team .

Title: Re: Collins To Start At Center Moves KG Back To The 4.
Post by: LooseCannon on December 20, 2012, 12:23:01 AM
Melo can play as well as Collins right now . 

I'm not convinced this is true.
Title: Re: Collins To Start At Center Moves KG Back To The 4.
Post by: BudweiserCeltic on December 20, 2012, 12:23:56 AM
Wilcox 's game is more offensive , he gets abused under bucket by guards in the lane , they aren't afraid of him. Wilcox plays a bit soft ... nice guy and he gets abused by smaller guys.

Collins size , is enought to make most guys think hard about how bad they want that interior shot. And all he is doing is moving around the paint area. A good center would make a night and day diff in the Celtics.

Gortat would help , no doubt, but , I can really see Varejao fitting  in with the mindset of this team.  A faster paced , where Anderson doesn't have to carry an offensive load, but can roam like Noah and disrupt the opposing team .

That said, Wilcox rarely plays with KG, and Wilcox's defense should be better playing alongside KG. If anything, I'd start Wilcox over Collins and see how it looks.
Title: Re: Collins To Start At Center Moves KG Back To The 4.
Post by: Galeto on December 20, 2012, 01:04:02 AM
I really liked seeing Collins out there with Garnett.  It was like having Perk out actually with the smart and physical defense Collins brought yet with even worse offense as hard as that's to imagine. 

Another benefit of playing Collins over Bass is that the fifth best offensive starter isn't taking shots away from his superior teammates.  Bass has been one of the least efficient players on the Celtics and he really shouldn't have been chucking up shots at the expense of Terry, Pierce, Garnett and Rondo.  Another plus is that without Bass to throw behind the back bounce passes to for mid-range jumpers, Rondo looked more aggressive offensively.  I like the attacking version of Rondo.

Title: Re: Collins To Start At Center Moves KG Back To The 4.
Post by: Yoki_IsTheName on December 20, 2012, 06:14:32 AM
Should have done this a long time ago with Darko when we had him...
Title: Re: Collins To Start At Center Moves KG Back To The 4.
Post by: Celtics4ever on December 20, 2012, 06:36:43 AM
Darko has never panned out as a player though, I don't get the fascination with him are you related?

Team defense was vastly improved but it was the Cavs.   I want to see it against a better team.
Title: Re: Collins To Start At Center Moves KG Back To The 4.
Post by: Yoki_IsTheName on December 20, 2012, 07:17:37 AM
Darko has never panned out as a player though, I don't get the fascination with him are you related?

Team defense was vastly improved but it was the Cavs.   I want to see it against a better team.

He has never panned out from the hype he got. But outside of that he's a solid Center. He blocks shots, physical and a good enough post defender.  He's obviously quicker, more agile, and a much more better offensive player than Collins.

All I'm saying is, I'd rather have him there than Collins. I don't expect #2 overall talent and production from him, we are all way passed that, we all know he was taken WAY too high. But he is a better option than Collins is at C. If Doc would have just done this (KG at 4 and a Center), we would still have Darko.
Title: Re: Collins To Start At Center Moves KG Back To The 4.
Post by: crimson_stallion on December 20, 2012, 07:42:46 AM
A little weird definitely but something to look out for tonight. Also forgot to mention terry is in the starting lineup again.

IIRC we started losing consecutive games the second took Terry out of the starting lineup.

Likewise at the start of the season, as soon as Terry got moved in to the starting 5 we started winning games.

Maybe I'm just imagining things - is there anyone have access to these stats and can post them up here?  To me it just feels like we are a winning team with Terry starting and a losing team with him on the bench.
Title: Re: Collins To Start At Center Moves KG Back To The 4.
Post by: pearljammer10 on December 20, 2012, 08:21:59 AM
Don't like Terry starting.

Don't like Lee starting, either.

Add me to that list.
Title: Re: Collins To Start At Center Moves KG Back To The 4.
Post by: Accension13 on December 20, 2012, 11:09:05 AM
Darko has never panned out as a player though, I don't get the fascination with him are you related?

Team defense was vastly improved but it was the Cavs.   I want to see it against a better team.

He has never panned out from the hype he got. But outside of that he's a solid Center. He blocks shots, physical and a good enough post defender.  He's obviously quicker, more agile, and a much more better offensive player than Collins.

All I'm saying is, I'd rather have him there than Collins. I don't expect #2 overall talent and production from him, we are all way passed that, we all know he was taken WAY too high. But he is a better option than Collins is at C. If Doc would have just done this (KG at 4 and a Center), we would still have Darko.

Great point.... darko is much better than Collins.  They should have gone to that lineup after the first week of the season instead of this fascination with small ball. Team would have a much better record now
Title: Re: Collins To Start At Center Moves KG Back To The 4.
Post by: MBunge on December 20, 2012, 11:27:33 AM
On the one hand, it's nice to see Doc responding to the team's bad play.  On the other hand, for Collins to go from being superglued to the bench at the beginning of the season to starting lineup, it indicates that Doc is just flailing right now.  He doesn't really know what's wrong with the team.  He doesn't have an idea how to fix it.  He's just guessing.

Mike
Title: Re: Collins To Start At Center Moves KG Back To The 4.
Post by: Chris on December 20, 2012, 11:33:22 AM
On the one hand, it's nice to see Doc responding to the team's bad play.  On the other hand, for Collins to go from being superglued to the bench at the beginning of the season to starting lineup, it indicates that Doc is just flailing right now.  He doesn't really know what's wrong with the team.  He doesn't have an idea how to fix it.  He's just guessing.

Mike

I don't think he's guessing, I think he is sending a message.  He doesn't WANT to play Collins, but he realized he needed to stop rewarding the other bigs for not playing defense. 

Last night (and I think it will continue for at least a few more games) was a big, flashing sign to Bass, Sully, and Wilcox, saying, if you want to start, you WILL play defense.
Title: Re: Collins To Start At Center Moves KG Back To The 4.
Post by: Celtics4ever on December 20, 2012, 11:49:03 AM
I Ainge had a talk with him.   I can't prove it but it was a 100% move from what he believes in small ball.  Someone upstairs had to have said something to him.
Title: Re: Collins To Start At Center Moves KG Back To The 4.
Post by: Chris on December 20, 2012, 12:05:41 PM
I Ainge had a talk with him.   I can't prove it but it was a 100% move from what he believes in small ball.  Someone upstairs had to have said something to him.

Or, maybe its the other way around.  Maybe this was Doc's message to Danny saying that he is tired of only having guys 6'8" and under, and that he is going to play the big man, even if he isn't very good. 
Title: Re: Collins To Start At Center Moves KG Back To The 4.
Post by: Who on December 20, 2012, 12:12:15 PM
On the one hand, it's nice to see Doc responding to the team's bad play.  On the other hand, for Collins to go from being superglued to the bench at the beginning of the season to starting lineup, it indicates that Doc is just flailing right now.  He doesn't really know what's wrong with the team.  He doesn't have an idea how to fix it.  He's just guessing.

Mike

I don't think he's guessing, I think he is sending a message.  He doesn't WANT to play Collins, but he realized he needed to stop rewarding the other bigs for not playing defense. 

Last night (and I think it will continue for at least a few more games) was a big, flashing sign to Bass, Sully, and Wilcox, saying, if you want to start, you WILL play defense.
Yeah, I think so too.
Title: Re: Collins To Start At Center Moves KG Back To The 4.
Post by: Yoki_IsTheName on December 20, 2012, 12:15:30 PM
I Ainge had a talk with him.   I can't prove it but it was a 100% move from what he believes in small ball.  Someone upstairs had to have said something to him.

Or, maybe its the other way around.  Maybe this was Doc's message to Danny saying that he is tired of only having guys 6'8" and under, and that he is going to play the big man, even if he isn't very good.

I don't know about that. Ainge gave him some people to work with(Darko 7'0", Collins 7'0", Melo 7'0" Wilcox 6'10").  Now they are not the ones that Doc probably wanted, but they were certainly there, but Doc never really used them.
Title: Re: Collins To Start At Center Moves KG Back To The 4.
Post by: j804 on December 20, 2012, 12:27:15 PM
Melo can play as well as Collins right now . 

Collins helped KG , I thought,  he stood in there to clog the dribble penetration.

Varejao would be Sooooooooooooooooo useful to this team. We need his rebounds, interior defense and garbage buckets when Sully isn't in there.

Danny ...PLEASE TRADE for Varejao   ;D

Co signed
if we had Verejao and were able to somehow keep Avery forgetaboutit

Title: Re: Collins To Start At Center Moves KG Back To The 4.
Post by: Chris on December 20, 2012, 12:39:13 PM
I Ainge had a talk with him.   I can't prove it but it was a 100% move from what he believes in small ball.  Someone upstairs had to have said something to him.

Or, maybe its the other way around.  Maybe this was Doc's message to Danny saying that he is tired of only having guys 6'8" and under, and that he is going to play the big man, even if he isn't very good.

I don't know about that. Ainge gave him some people to work with(Darko 7'0", Collins 7'0", Melo 7'0" Wilcox 6'10").  Now they are not the ones that Doc probably wanted, but they were certainly there, but Doc never really used them.

Darko was hurt, and very uneven, and then left the team before his chance really came around.  Melo is a project who shouldnt be anywhere near an NBA floor anytime soon.  Wilcox has been playing, but he doesn't play defense. 
Title: Re: Collins To Start At Center Moves KG Back To The 4.
Post by: BballTim on December 20, 2012, 12:46:13 PM
I Ainge had a talk with him.   I can't prove it but it was a 100% move from what he believes in small ball.  Someone upstairs had to have said something to him.

  I think this is one of those things people consider to be realistic because they see enough people saying on places like this blog. When he's had decent/good bigs (Perk, Shaq, Krstic, Sheed) he's played them. When he hasn't he's gone with talent over size. Not that he doesn't try and shake things up *occasionally* with small-ball lineups, but it's extremely unlikely that Danny had a talk with Doc about playing less small ball.
Title: Re: Collins To Start At Center Moves KG Back To The 4.
Post by: dark_lord on December 20, 2012, 12:48:02 PM
i'd rather see doc himself suit up b4 collins.
Title: Re: Collins To Start At Center Moves KG Back To The 4.
Post by: MBunge on December 20, 2012, 12:58:41 PM
On the one hand, it's nice to see Doc responding to the team's bad play.  On the other hand, for Collins to go from being superglued to the bench at the beginning of the season to starting lineup, it indicates that Doc is just flailing right now.  He doesn't really know what's wrong with the team.  He doesn't have an idea how to fix it.  He's just guessing.

Mike

I don't think he's guessing, I think he is sending a message.  He doesn't WANT to play Collins, but he realized he needed to stop rewarding the other bigs for not playing defense. 

Why did it take him 24 games to send that message?  Before last night, Collins had played in only 5 games all year and 4 of those were double digit losses.  Are we really supposed to think that Bass, Wilcox and Sully all play great defense in practice but then suck in games?  What was Doc seeing all training camp and in practice up to last night that prevented him from playing Collins?

Mike
Title: Re: Collins To Start At Center Moves KG Back To The 4.
Post by: Chris on December 20, 2012, 01:07:32 PM
On the one hand, it's nice to see Doc responding to the team's bad play.  On the other hand, for Collins to go from being superglued to the bench at the beginning of the season to starting lineup, it indicates that Doc is just flailing right now.  He doesn't really know what's wrong with the team.  He doesn't have an idea how to fix it.  He's just guessing.

Mike

I don't think he's guessing, I think he is sending a message.  He doesn't WANT to play Collins, but he realized he needed to stop rewarding the other bigs for not playing defense. 

Why did it take him 24 games to send that message?  Before last night, Collins had played in only 5 games all year and 4 of those were double digit losses.  Are we really supposed to think that Bass, Wilcox and Sully all play great defense in practice but then suck in games?  What was Doc seeing all training camp and in practice up to last night that prevented him from playing Collins?

Mike

Doc is a patient coach (perhaps to a fault...although his patience has paid off in the past).  He believes in letting veterans work things out and play through things, just like he believes in letting young guys get comfortable before throwing them into the fire.

To put it bluntly, Bass, Sully, and Wilcox are better players than Collins right now.  They bring more to the table overall, and in a vaccuum, should be the ones seeing the playing time.

However, what this team needed was defense.  And those guys continued coming up short.  Their rotations have all been pretty terrible, they have not defended the rim, and rebounding has not been a strongsuit. 

I think its pretty easy to assume that Doc has been hammering them all on that all season, to try to get them to improve in those areas, but it just wasn't happening...and it was affecting the rest of the team as well. 

So, he decided that he had given them enough of a leash, and decided it was time to sacrifice the other parts of the game, in order to try to get the teams defense back on track, and hopefully get through those guys thick skulls that if they don't shape up defensively, they won't be playing.
Title: Re: Collins To Start At Center Moves KG Back To The 4.
Post by: rocknrollforyoursoul on December 20, 2012, 01:13:08 PM
Don't like Terry starting.

Don't like Lee starting, either.

Ha! Good point.
Title: Re: Collins To Start At Center Moves KG Back To The 4.
Post by: rocknrollforyoursoul on December 20, 2012, 01:17:31 PM
Should have done this a long time ago with Darko when we had him...

Yup. And Darko is waaaay better than Collins, so imagine how good that would've worked out. Doc should start listening to us.  ;D