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Celtics Basketball => Celtics Talk => Topic started by: FatjohnReturns on December 19, 2012, 02:45:28 AM

Title: Time for Doc to go.
Post by: FatjohnReturns on December 19, 2012, 02:45:28 AM
This team isnt getting it done and its not the players fault. We have many talented players. Those players need to be put in a posistion to succeed.

This is from Simmons 07 for espn some excerpts.

"Boston blows a 22-point lead at MSG and the Knicks rally by running the same high screen with Nate Robinson and Channing Frye 27 consecutive times without the Celtics making a single defensive adjustment, followed by Doc blaming the players after the game for "having to get better defensively"

"If we're gunning for Oden next spring, either we could be blatant about this quest, fire Doc and hire Joe the Alcoholic Counter Guy from the Charlestown Store 24 ů or we could keep Doc and guarantee six more months of close losses, defensive breakdowns, stagnant offense, convoluted excuses and an NBA coach substituting players every 90 seconds like he's coaching a hockey team."

"we surged ahead in the final three minutes before the "everyone stand around and watch Paul" offense killed the momentum. Eventually, Orlando regained the lead and clinched the game on one of those "team grabs an offensive rebound off a missed free throw, then gets the backbreaking layup off a bad defensive switch" sequences that have defined the Doc era."

The article is here. http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=simmons/061115

The new Doc is the same as the old Doc. stagnant offense, questionable rotations, excuses. Oh wait its mental fatigue. We need a new voice in the locker room.
Title: Re: Time for Doc to go.
Post by: tarheelsxxiii on December 19, 2012, 02:55:43 AM
Goofy. The primary aim of the new NBA coach is to coddle.
Title: Re: Time for Doc to go.
Post by: Lightskinsmurf on December 19, 2012, 03:14:00 AM
I never was a big doc fan. Always thought he was a decent coach at best.
Title: Re: Time for Doc to go.
Post by: dunisho on December 19, 2012, 03:22:54 AM
bring in Phil Jackson!!
Title: Re: Time for Doc to go.
Post by: LarBrd33 on December 19, 2012, 04:01:16 AM
nah.  Doc's a great coach.  This team's lack of success doesn't have to do with coaching.  It's an issue of talent.  Even with Ray Allen we struggled for most of last year. Our best players are old.  Our days of being a contender are probably over unless we luck into a young superstar or two. 

We basically stopped being legitimate contenders on April 3rd 2011... any mild success we've had since then over the past 20 months has just been an aftershock of what we once were.
Title: Re: Time for Doc to go.
Post by: Celts Fan 92 on December 19, 2012, 04:10:30 AM
lol Doc aint goin nowhere dis year if he does bout half da team is leavin wit him nd we turn into da Bobcats. I was a celtics fan when we went on dat 18 game losin streak in 06 iont wanna see filth like dat again so yall blow it up people gotta chill
Title: Re: Time for Doc to go.
Post by: PhoSita on December 19, 2012, 04:13:13 AM
Even if it is "all Doc's fault," and I don't think the answer is that simple -- KG and Terry basically signed here this summer to play for Doc.  Pierce signed a couple years ago in part for the same reason.

Firing Doc at this point, unless the players are totally fed up with him, would only make things a lot worse, I think.
Title: Re: Time for Doc to go.
Post by: cltc5 on December 19, 2012, 05:44:41 AM
This is an immensely stupid thread and rather than write a 15-page post about it I'm just going to say that I'm very happy with Doc and wouldn't take any coach over him at this point. Give the team time to learn our defensive rotations and this team will be better than last year and a contender in the Spring.


While other teams have already learned their rotations?  Tired of mediocre efforts, coaching, playing, etc.  Nets, knicks, sixers, have all put it together.  Lakers and c's haven't cause coaches have no idea how to manage the teams
Title: Re: Time for Doc to go.
Post by: mctyson on December 19, 2012, 06:17:56 AM
This is an immensely stupid thread and rather than write a 15-page post about it I'm just going to say that I'm very happy with Doc and wouldn't take any coach over him at this point. Give the team time to learn our defensive rotations and this team will be better than last year and a contender in the Spring.

The Nets, Knicks, and Sixers have the same teams they had last year.  The Nets added Joe Johnson who, up to this point, has been pretty bad.  Sixers are the same team minus Iggy.  Same with the Knicks.

The Celtics have added Terry, Lee, Green, Sullinger, and to a smaller extent Wilcox to their rotation.  Our starting 5 is mostly the same excluding Ray Allen, but he wasn't even our full-time starter last year when AB was here.


While other teams have already learned their rotations?  Tired of mediocre efforts, coaching, playing, etc.  Nets, knicks, sixers, have all put it together.  Lakers and c's haven't cause coaches have no idea how to manage the teams
Title: Re: Time for Doc to go.
Post by: gpap on December 19, 2012, 07:40:57 AM
I somewhat agree with the premise of this thread. Though I don't think you can solely pin the team's problems on Doc, I will say that Doc isn't exactly helping the problem

I think he's got an archaic, ineffective method of coaching and/or I just don't think he's getting through to his players

I also don't think he's motivating them properly.

Finally, I will also say that I didn't really like when Doc threw Rondo and his team under the bus by not defending them and calling them soft following the Humphries incident

Can't help but wonder if that also caused at least a subtle rift between the players and Doc.

Doc gets so much praise for coaching the '08 championship team. What people don't realize is that team had so much talent, even I could've coached the team and they still would've won the title.
Title: Re: Time for Doc to go.
Post by: SHAQATTACK on December 19, 2012, 07:47:36 AM
Our days of being a contender are probably over unless we luck into a young superstar or two. 


I'm old.  And have too hard of time forgetting when the NBA was about who could build the best team.  The Celtics were very powerful in the 50-60-70's ,  if they needed a player , they BOUGHT or traded for who they needed.

Now with the cap controled so low,  teams pretty much have to tank and hope there are good players in the draft.

In the old days , the Celtics would have bought a few players and returned to the top . Now it takes alot of luck and 10 years  :-X
Title: Re: Time for Doc to go.
Post by: Eddie20 on December 19, 2012, 08:39:56 AM
I love Doc, but I do think he's done a less than stellar job this season. The juggling of Terry and Lee have been puzzling. Terry is better suited to bring offense off the bench and to use him as a starter for so many games probably stunted the continuity with the second unit.

I also think we need a new approach offensively. Having the ball in Rondo's hands for the majority of the shot clock, where it's basically one pass (from Rondo), followed by a perimeter jumper has grown stale. This makes it way too easy for the defense. I've always felt we were much better as a team when we were moving the ball collectively. This made us much harder to defend, had everyone involved offensively, and created better looks.
Title: Re: Time for Doc to go.
Post by: Roy H. on December 19, 2012, 08:54:40 AM
...its not the players fault.

I don't understand this sentiment.
Title: Re: Time for Doc to go.
Post by: Chris on December 19, 2012, 09:05:49 AM
...its not the players fault.

I don't understand this sentiment.

Me either.  While Doc is absolutely culpable for not getting his team playing to the best of their abilities, the players are absolutely responsible as well.

Personally, I think the players are much more responsible, because I am not sure what else Doc, or any other coach could do right now to get them on the same page...but that is still Doc's job description, so he needs to share the blame. 

Either way, it is still way too early to panic to the extent of firing Doc.  We have seen this team pull together too many times to not give them the chance to make that happen...and I don't think another coach is going to come in and turn it around.
Title: Re: Time for Doc to go.
Post by: kozlodoev on December 19, 2012, 09:29:14 AM
...its not the players fault.

I don't understand this sentiment.
Me neither. It's absolutely the players' fault. The a virtually identical core of the team who played so great last season is now unable to defend the proverbial chair.

Are we exposed by the fact that the rest of the league is no longer out of shape due to a lengthy lockout?
Title: Re: Time for Doc to go.
Post by: scaryjerry on December 19, 2012, 09:31:47 AM
I like Doc and think theres 0 chance he gets fired...but I wouldnt weep if he did...most overrated coach in the game. and one of the more overrated coaches of all time
Title: Re: Time for Doc to go.
Post by: scaryjerry on December 19, 2012, 09:36:39 AM
...its not the players fault.

I don't understand this sentiment.


Well it was because of the players  when we win too, we've never won because of coaching....Doc is just a  cheerleader. he gets all this credit for great plays after timeouts like hes a mastermind....uhh a high school dropout could draw up these plays.
Title: Re: Time for Doc to go.
Post by: Cman on December 19, 2012, 09:38:21 AM
How many times over the past half decade or so have I seen a "Time for Doc to go" thread?  A lot.
Title: Re: Time for Doc to go.
Post by: scaryjerry on December 19, 2012, 09:39:59 AM
How many times over the past half decade or so have I seen a "Time for Doc to go" thread?  A lot.

How many times over the past half decade have we won a game because of coaching?

When Thibodeau was here?
Title: Re: Time for Doc to go.
Post by: More Banners on December 19, 2012, 09:58:57 AM
Doc sort of reminds me of KC Jones a bit:  Figurehead.

The team will be as good as it's best few players.  Rondo has 'it' and so does KG for sure.  Pierce, for all his talent and honorary 'captain' status, has never been the leader of this team for real.  Early on, it was Antione, then during the real crap years, it was nobody, then KG showed up and defered to Pierce publicly, but KG is the real leader.

Rondo/KG are the heart of the team and it's leaders.  Doc clearly is not.
Title: Re: Time for Doc to go.
Post by: wdleehi on December 19, 2012, 10:01:03 AM
As long as this is a vet team, Doc as the coach works. 


Title: Re: Time for Doc to go.
Post by: MBunge on December 19, 2012, 10:14:15 AM
It's absolutely the players' fault. The a virtually identical core of the team who played so great last season is now unable to defend the proverbial chair.

And the players all got visited by the "Can't Play Defense Fairy" in the offseason?  Let's review.

1.  KG.  Been here for years.
2.  Pierce.  Been here for years.
3.  Rondo.  Been here for years.
4.  Bass.  With the team all last season.
5.  Terry and Lee.  Signed in the offseason.  Had full training camp.  Veteran players who've never been known as a truly atrocious defender before.
6.  Green and Wilcox.  With the team for the start of last season.  Around the team during the year.  Had full training camp.  Again, never known before for being truly atrocious defenders.
7.  Sully.  Rookie.
8.  Barbosa.  Late signing.

There are only two players who should be having any trouble picking up the defense, unless they've been visited by the previously mentioned fairy.

Did the players force Doc to start Sully over Bass, thereby throwing away whatever chemistry they team had at the end of last season?

Are the players forcing Doc to keep calling those baseline screen plays which had become increasingly ineffective with Ray and which neither Terry nor Lee have ever really run before?

Are the other players forcing Doc to call play after play to get Pierce shots when he's shooting the ball worse than he has his entire career?

Are the players responsible for the state of this team?  Sure.  What the heck is Doc getting paid millions of dollars for, though, if he apparently has little to no influence on how the team performs?  Why not just save money and let Ed Lacerte coach?

Mike
Title: Re: Time for Doc to go.
Post by: Bankshot on December 19, 2012, 10:36:27 AM
The Celtics need one or two more elite players.  Right now they only have one.  That's the problem, imo.  You don't win championships without at least a couple of elite players.  Pierce and KG are no longer elite top tier players.  No knocking them, as it is understandable because of their ages.  The last team that won without top tier elite players is Detroit, and that was because the Lakers, with too many stars and egos, imploded that year.
Title: Re: Time for Doc to go.
Post by: MBunge on December 19, 2012, 10:53:06 AM
The Celtics need one or two more elite players.

Maybe they need that to win a title.  You don't need that to be competitive and what's most bothersome about this team is how non-competitive they look at times.

Mike
Title: Re: Time for Doc to go.
Post by: esel1000 on December 19, 2012, 11:40:11 AM
...its not the players fault.

I don't understand this sentiment.


Well it was because of the players  when we win too, we've never won because of coaching....Doc is just a  cheerleader. he gets all this credit for great plays after timeouts like hes a mastermind....uhh a high school dropout could draw up these plays.

I dont think you really understanding what doc has done throughout his coaching career... remember that magical run to quarter 4 game 7 of the ECF last season? Pure coaching. Which is funny because at that moment nobody was calling for doc's head and everyone was praising him.

Threads like this are funny because he really is one of the best in the game and with the exception of teams like the Spurs, Sixers, Nuggets, and maybe OKC I guarantee any of the other teams in this league would jump at the chance to sign doc.

It's so easy to blame the coach, and I agree there are certain things he could do better this season (some small ball lineups have been flawed, etc). But he's not the main problem... the roster is. It's flawed to the max. We sat around pre-season thinking we had this great, deep team. Well its deep with a bunch of random pieces with no cohesion. Oh, and our biggest problem? KG is our ONLY big man with an ounce of talent. Wilcox is a good back up, but its not enough.

If you were coaching this team I guarantee you would have a ton of problems trying to create effective lineups. This roster needs a shakeup... ASAP. Thats going to happen before doc goes anywhere
Title: Re: Time for Doc to go.
Post by: scaryjerry on December 19, 2012, 11:48:26 AM
...its not the players fault.

I don't understand this sentiment.


Well it was because of the players  when we win too, we've never won because of coaching....Doc is just a  cheerleader. he gets all this credit for great plays after timeouts like hes a mastermind....uhh a high school dropout could draw up these plays.

I dont think you really understanding what doc has done throughout his coaching career... remember that magical run to quarter 4 game 7 of the ECF last season? Pure coaching. Which is funny because at that moment nobody was calling for doc's head and everyone was praising him.

Threads like this are funny because he really is one of the best in the game and with the exception of teams like the Spurs, Sixers, Nuggets, and maybe OKC I guarantee any of the other teams in this league would jump at the chance to sign doc.

It's so easy to blame the coach, and I agree there are certain things he could do better this season (some small ball lineups have been flawed, etc). But he's not the main problem... the roster is. It's flawed to the max. We sat around pre-season thinking we had this great, deep team. Well its deep with a bunch of random pieces with no cohesion. Oh, and our biggest problem? KG is our ONLY big man with an ounce of talent. Wilcox is a good back up, but its not enough.

If you were coaching this team I guarantee you would have a ton of problems trying to create effective lineups. This roster needs a shakeup... ASAP. Thats going to happen before doc goes anywhere

disagreed. doc was out coached in the Philadelphia series by Doug Collins and it was a reason among others that the series went 7 and came down to Rondo jumpers bailing US out... if the Miami series was about coaching doc didn't have his guys prepared in a closeout game at home and had his dumbest defensive game plan in the game 7 ....it's all about the players, as I said before we haven't won a game because of coaching since Tom Thibodeau walked out that door.
Title: Re: Time for Doc to go.
Post by: Boston Garden Leprechaun on December 19, 2012, 12:08:25 PM
As long as this is a vet team, Doc as the coach works.

i gave doc a pass last year due to almost making his 3rd finals in 5 years. however i now see where the criticisms of him come from and they are LEGIT!

he does not use the talent he has like he should. why do we rely on jumpers? should doc be telling them to get high% shots on dribble drives, dishes , cutters and post ups? It is almost suicidal how he does not correct these things. I'm not impressed at all with his offensive style or coaching and his defense sucks this year also. no more passes from me.
Title: Re: Time for Doc to go.
Post by: Boston Garden Leprechaun on December 19, 2012, 12:10:50 PM
Oh and I am not impressed with our assistant coaches either. What do they do? They all sit there like useless zombies and give everybody a fist bump. grow some cojones and get in somebody's grill for GOD's sake and shake this team up.
Title: Re: Time for Doc to go.
Post by: Chris on December 19, 2012, 12:13:57 PM
Oh and I am not impressed with our assistant coaches either. What do they do? They all sit there like useless zombies and give everybody a fist bump. grow some cojones and get in somebody's grill for GOD's sake and shake this team up.

Eh, assistant coaches job is on the practice court.  I have no problem with them sitting back during games.

With that said, they absolutely have some major culpability here for the lack of preparation of the players.  The head coach takes responsibility as any manager, however, generally the actual teaching is done by the assistants, and something appears to be lacking there.
Title: Re: Time for Doc to go.
Post by: dark_lord on December 19, 2012, 12:19:40 PM
every1 must take ownership for the short comings for the team, but saying doc has to go is crazy.  he is an outstanding coach, specifically with veterans.  virtually all teams would want him to coach their team if we dont want him, which tells you something.
Title: Re: Time for Doc to go.
Post by: SHAQATTACK on December 19, 2012, 12:23:30 PM
body language of several of the primary Celtics is wrong.  they are being out classed on the court and out played , out husseled . (except KG /Rondo/Sully) .   

Doc isn't looking very good as a coach in all this and the play of Pierce and Jet on court makes me think they aren't going to be a playoff team.





Title: Re: Time for Doc to go.
Post by: esel1000 on December 19, 2012, 12:26:35 PM
...its not the players fault.

I don't understand this sentiment.


Well it was because of the players  when we win too, we've never won because of coaching....Doc is just a  cheerleader. he gets all this credit for great plays after timeouts like hes a mastermind....uhh a high school dropout could draw up these plays.

I dont think you really understanding what doc has done throughout his coaching career... remember that magical run to quarter 4 game 7 of the ECF last season? Pure coaching. Which is funny because at that moment nobody was calling for doc's head and everyone was praising him.

Threads like this are funny because he really is one of the best in the game and with the exception of teams like the Spurs, Sixers, Nuggets, and maybe OKC I guarantee any of the other teams in this league would jump at the chance to sign doc.

It's so easy to blame the coach, and I agree there are certain things he could do better this season (some small ball lineups have been flawed, etc). But he's not the main problem... the roster is. It's flawed to the max. We sat around pre-season thinking we had this great, deep team. Well its deep with a bunch of random pieces with no cohesion. Oh, and our biggest problem? KG is our ONLY big man with an ounce of talent. Wilcox is a good back up, but its not enough.

If you were coaching this team I guarantee you would have a ton of problems trying to create effective lineups. This roster needs a shakeup... ASAP. Thats going to happen before doc goes anywhere

disagreed. doc was out coached in the Philadelphia series by Doug Collins and it was a reason among others that the series went 7 and came down to Rondo jumpers bailing US out... if the Miami series was about coaching doc didn't have his guys prepared in a closeout game at home and had his dumbest defensive game plan in the game 7 ....it's all about the players, as I said before we haven't won a game because of coaching since Tom Thibodeau walked out that door.

Doug Collins is one of the smartest coaches in the game and that same Sixers team knocked out the top seeded Bulls in 6 games the series before. Very underrated team last year...  Sure an argument could be made that the Celtics should have finished off that series in 5 or 6 but honestly during that series all I saw were two very smart coaches and two very hardworking teams going at it. Doc wasn't outcoached that series, that team just flat out didn't suck like a lot of people seem to assume, They were, after all, leading the atlantic for more than half the season
Title: Re: Time for Doc to go.
Post by: Interceptor on December 19, 2012, 12:38:23 PM
Doug Collins is one of the smartest coaches in the game and that same Sixers team knocked out the top seeded Bulls in 6 games the series before. Very underrated team last year...  Sure an argument could be made that the Celtics should have finished off that series in 5 or 6 but honestly during that series all I saw were two very smart coaches and two very hardworking teams going at it. Doc wasn't outcoached that series, that team just flat out didn't suck like a lot of people seem to assume, They were, after all, leading the atlantic for more than half the season
Not that I really disagree, but if we're going to call them the "top-seeded" Bulls, we should also call them the "Rose-less" Bulls after Game 1.
Title: Re: Time for Doc to go.
Post by: esel1000 on December 19, 2012, 01:13:05 PM
Doug Collins is one of the smartest coaches in the game and that same Sixers team knocked out the top seeded Bulls in 6 games the series before. Very underrated team last year...  Sure an argument could be made that the Celtics should have finished off that series in 5 or 6 but honestly during that series all I saw were two very smart coaches and two very hardworking teams going at it. Doc wasn't outcoached that series, that team just flat out didn't suck like a lot of people seem to assume, They were, after all, leading the atlantic for more than half the season
Not that I really disagree, but if we're going to call them the "top-seeded" Bulls, we should also call them the "Rose-less" Bulls after Game 1.

fair enough but the bulls played most of the season without rose anyway
Title: Re: Time for Doc to go.
Post by: Boston Garden Leprechaun on December 19, 2012, 01:18:20 PM
Doug Collins is one of the smartest coaches in the game and that same Sixers team knocked out the top seeded Bulls in 6 games the series before. Very underrated team last year...  Sure an argument could be made that the Celtics should have finished off that series in 5 or 6 but honestly during that series all I saw were two very smart coaches and two very hardworking teams going at it. Doc wasn't outcoached that series, that team just flat out didn't suck like a lot of people seem to assume, They were, after all, leading the atlantic for more than half the season
Not that I really disagree, but if we're going to call them the "top-seeded" Bulls, we should also call them the "Rose-less" Bulls after Game 1.

fair enough but the bulls played most of the season without rose anyway

and were still the top seed right? then they were still a top team no matter how anybody wants to spin it. case closed
Title: Re: Time for Doc to go.
Post by: BballTim on December 19, 2012, 01:22:50 PM
...its not the players fault.

I don't understand this sentiment.


Well it was because of the players  when we win too, we've never won because of coaching....Doc is just a  cheerleader. he gets all this credit for great plays after timeouts like hes a mastermind....uhh a high school dropout could draw up these plays.

I dont think you really understanding what doc has done throughout his coaching career... remember that magical run to quarter 4 game 7 of the ECF last season? Pure coaching. Which is funny because at that moment nobody was calling for doc's head and everyone was praising him.

Threads like this are funny because he really is one of the best in the game and with the exception of teams like the Spurs, Sixers, Nuggets, and maybe OKC I guarantee any of the other teams in this league would jump at the chance to sign doc.

It's so easy to blame the coach, and I agree there are certain things he could do better this season (some small ball lineups have been flawed, etc). But he's not the main problem... the roster is. It's flawed to the max. We sat around pre-season thinking we had this great, deep team. Well its deep with a bunch of random pieces with no cohesion. Oh, and our biggest problem? KG is our ONLY big man with an ounce of talent. Wilcox is a good back up, but its not enough.

If you were coaching this team I guarantee you would have a ton of problems trying to create effective lineups. This roster needs a shakeup... ASAP. Thats going to happen before doc goes anywhere

disagreed. doc was out coached in the Philadelphia series by Doug Collins and it was a reason among others that the series went 7 and came down to Rondo jumpers bailing US out... if the Miami series was about coaching doc didn't have his guys prepared in a closeout game at home and had his dumbest defensive game plan in the game 7 ....it's all about the players, as I said before we haven't won a game because of coaching since Tom Thibodeau walked out that door.

  It's not that hard to "out coach" someone when you have many more healthy players than they do. Doc didn't really have a ton of options with the team we had in the playoffs last year.
Title: Re: Time for Doc to go.
Post by: MBunge on December 19, 2012, 01:25:01 PM
Doc didn't really have a ton of options with the team we had in the playoffs last year.

And if Doc had had options, we might still not know how good Avery Bradly could be or known whether Steamer could play or not.

Mike
Title: Re: Time for Doc to go.
Post by: BballTim on December 19, 2012, 01:30:33 PM
Doc didn't really have a ton of options with the team we had in the playoffs last year.

And if Doc had had options, we might still not know how good Avery Bradly could be or known whether Steamer could play or not.

Mike

  I think the assumption that Doc never would have played Bradley is pretty ridiculous.
Title: Re: Time for Doc to go.
Post by: Boston Garden Leprechaun on December 19, 2012, 01:32:44 PM
Doc didn't really have a ton of options with the team we had in the playoffs last year.

And if Doc had had options, we might still not know how good Avery Bradly could be or known whether Steamer could play or not.

Mike

  I think the assumption that Doc never would have played Bradley is pretty ridiculous.

we'll never know now will we?
Title: Re: Time for Doc to go.
Post by: Kane3387 on December 19, 2012, 01:35:16 PM
Firing Doc is the dumbest thing I have seen on this board all year. Overreacting to a slow start way too much. You fire Doc and you punt this season. You lose the locker room, KG is gone. Rondo...who knows. Pierce will be traded. This would be the worst thing to happen to this franchise since the combination of hiring Pitino and missing out on Duncan.
Title: Re: Time for Doc to go.
Post by: BballTim on December 19, 2012, 01:39:33 PM
Doc didn't really have a ton of options with the team we had in the playoffs last year.

And if Doc had had options, we might still not know how good Avery Bradly could be or known whether Steamer could play or not.

Mike

  I think the assumption that Doc never would have played Bradley is pretty ridiculous.

we'll never know now will we?

   It true we'll never "know", it's also true that you can't point to any cases of Doc not playing players that were as good as Bradley. In fact I doubt you can come up with examples of players on Steimsma's level not getting chances under Doc.
Title: Re: Time for Doc to go.
Post by: cltc5 on December 19, 2012, 01:43:04 PM
Doc didn't really have a ton of options with the team we had in the playoffs last year.

And if Doc had had options, we might still not know how good Avery Bradly could be or known whether Steamer could play or not.

Mike

  I think the assumption that Doc never would have played Bradley is pretty ridiculous.

I think that statement is pretty ridiculous.  Bradley was forced in and so was steamer, while guys like jjj and Moore road the pine all year even during garbage time.  Holy crap does  anyone think spoelstra is a
great coach?  Prob not in his first year but they got to the finals.  Now do u think he woulda gotten anywhere without bron Wade and bosh?  The players make the team.
Title: Re: Time for Doc to go.
Post by: Interceptor on December 19, 2012, 01:46:47 PM
I think that statement is pretty ridiculous.  Bradley was forced in and so was steamer, while guys like jjj and Moore road the pine all year even during garbage time.  Holy crap does  anyone think spoelstra is a
great coach?  Prob not in his first year but they got to the finals.  Now do u think he woulda gotten anywhere without bron Wade and bosh?  The players make the team.
Bradley and Steamer both earned their playing time. JJJ isn't even in the NBA right now. I'll grant you E'Twaun, never understood that (maybe he was bad at team defense).

Fact is, Doc plays people who deserve to be played. Sullinger is getting a lot of burn this year, and it's not because we're riddled with injuries or because Bass sucks.
Title: Re: Time for Doc to go.
Post by: Edgar on December 19, 2012, 01:55:24 PM
I think that statement is pretty ridiculous.  Bradley was forced in and so was steamer, while guys like jjj and Moore road the pine all year even during garbage time.  Holy crap does  anyone think spoelstra is a
great coach?  Prob not in his first year but they got to the finals.  Now do u think he woulda gotten anywhere without bron Wade and bosh?  The players make the team.
Bradley and Steamer both earned their playing time. JJJ isn't even in the NBA right now. I'll grant you E'Twaun, never understood that (maybe he was bad at team defense).

Fact is, Doc plays people who deserve to be played. Sullinger is getting a lot of burn this year, and it's not because we're riddled with injuries or because Bass sucks.

not that he doesnt...

p.s. Doc isnt a good x o coach nor a good rotation coach ive been saying this for years
yes hes the best at motivation and mentoring but that isnt what this teams need
I cant believe how many sub par coaches with l˝esser players in paper outcoach him playing their strenghts while doc plays the same old book over and over again.
Title: Re: Time for Doc to go.
Post by: Interceptor on December 19, 2012, 01:59:08 PM
Bass does not suck. He's come down a little bit from last season, but he is still a solid player.
Title: Re: Time for Doc to go.
Post by: Boston Garden Leprechaun on December 19, 2012, 02:06:55 PM
I think that statement is pretty ridiculous.  Bradley was forced in and so was steamer, while guys like jjj and Moore road the pine all year even during garbage time.  Holy crap does  anyone think spoelstra is a
great coach?  Prob not in his first year but they got to the finals.  Now do u think he woulda gotten anywhere without bron Wade and bosh?  The players make the team.
Bradley and Steamer both earned their playing time. JJJ isn't even in the NBA right now. I'll grant you E'Twaun, never understood that (maybe he was bad at team defense).

Fact is, Doc plays people who deserve to be played. Sullinger is getting a lot of burn this year, and it's not because we're riddled with injuries or because Bass sucks.

not that he doesnt...

p.s. Doc isnt a good x o coach nor a good rotation coach ive been saying this for years
yes hes the best at motivation and mentoring but that isnt what this teams need
I cant believe how many sub par coaches with l˝esser players in paper outcoach him playing their strenghts while doc plays the same old book over and over again.


this is what doc rivers does regularly....................




Title: Re: Time for Doc to go.
Post by: MBunge on December 19, 2012, 02:58:58 PM
it's also true that you can't point to any cases of Doc not playing players that were as good as Bradley.

What other example do you need besides Bradley?  At the start of last season, he was still playing the sort of very, very limited minutes he did as a rookie and he still looked like crap.  Bradley looked closer to a guy who'd be out of the league soon than he did the starter on a playoff team.

It wasn't until injured FORCED Doc to play Bradley well over 20 minutes a game, allowing Avery to just think about playing, that he transformed.  And if you go back and check, Doc's immediate response to guys getting healthy was to shrink Bradley's minutes back down to nearly nothing.

Mike
Title: Re: Time for Doc to go.
Post by: Edgar on December 19, 2012, 02:59:52 PM
The problem with Doc is Not, not playing the young guys or the old guys or the pgs, or small ball

Is coaching desitions and rotations overall.


Not adjusting and all the things related with during game basketball.
Title: Re: Time for Doc to go.
Post by: Celts Fan 92 on December 19, 2012, 04:31:13 PM
Oh and I am not impressed with our assistant coaches either. What do they do? They all sit there like useless zombies and give everybody a fist bump. grow some cojones and get in somebody's grill for GOD's sake and shake this team up.
;D rofl lol hahahhahaha
Title: Re: Time for Doc to go.
Post by: FatjohnReturns on December 19, 2012, 04:52:48 PM
I think that statement is pretty ridiculous.  Bradley was forced in and so was steamer, while guys like jjj and Moore road the pine all year even during garbage time.  Holy crap does  anyone think spoelstra is a
great coach?  Prob not in his first year but they got to the finals.  Now do u think he woulda gotten anywhere without bron Wade and bosh?  The players make the team.
Bradley and Steamer both earned their playing time. JJJ isn't even in the NBA right now. I'll grant you E'Twaun, never understood that (maybe he was bad at team defense).

Fact is, Doc plays people who deserve to be played. Sullinger is getting a lot of burn this year, and it's not because we're riddled with injuries or because Bass sucks.

not that he doesnt...

p.s. Doc isnt a good x o coach nor a good rotation coach ive been saying this for years
yes hes the best at motivation and mentoring but that isnt what this teams need
I cant believe how many sub par coaches with l˝esser players in paper outcoach him playing their strenghts while doc plays the same old book over and over again.

good anaylsis agree 100%.
Title: Re: Time for Doc to go.
Post by: Boston Garden Leprechaun on December 19, 2012, 04:55:39 PM
The problem with Doc is Not, not playing the young guys or the old guys or the pgs, or small ball

Is coaching desitions and rotations overall.


Not adjusting and all the things related with during game basketball.

so he is a terrible in game coach? wow. your postings are confirming my assumptions from the evidence presented this year so far. sad indeed.
Title: Re: Time for Doc to go.
Post by: ManUp on December 19, 2012, 05:08:55 PM
Doc didn't really have a ton of options with the team we had in the playoffs last year.

And if Doc had had options, we might still not know how good Avery Bradly could be or known whether Steamer could play or not.

Mike

  I think the assumption that Doc never would have played Bradley is pretty ridiculous.

we'll never know now will we?

   It true we'll never "know", it's also true that you can't point to any cases of Doc not playing players that were as good as Bradley. In fact I doubt you can come up with examples of players on Steimsma's level not getting chances under Doc.

In 06/07, Big Al's break out year, Jefferson was coming off the bench behind Paul Pierce and Theo Ratliff who were starting PF/C. He was doing well off the bench, but didn't start until Ratliff got injured. If I remember correctly the starting lineup for the first few games was Telfair, T.Allen, Szczerbiack, Pierce, Ratliff.
Title: Re: Time for Doc to go.
Post by: BballTim on December 19, 2012, 06:07:47 PM
it's also true that you can't point to any cases of Doc not playing players that were as good as Bradley.

What other example do you need besides Bradley?  At the start of last season, he was still playing the sort of very, very limited minutes he did as a rookie and he still looked like crap.  Bradley looked closer to a guy who'd be out of the league soon than he did the starter on a playoff team.

It wasn't until injured FORCED Doc to play Bradley well over 20 minutes a game, allowing Avery to just think about playing, that he transformed.  And if you go back and check, Doc's immediate response to guys getting healthy was to shrink Bradley's minutes back down to nearly nothing.

Mike

  So your claim is basically that Bradley didn't get a ton of minutes when he played like crap. Remember, even when he was starting for Rondo he really did very little on the offensive end.
Title: Re: Time for Doc to go.
Post by: BballTim on December 19, 2012, 06:13:52 PM
Doc didn't really have a ton of options with the team we had in the playoffs last year.

And if Doc had had options, we might still not know how good Avery Bradly could be or known whether Steamer could play or not.

Mike

  I think the assumption that Doc never would have played Bradley is pretty ridiculous.

we'll never know now will we?

   It true we'll never "know", it's also true that you can't point to any cases of Doc not playing players that were as good as Bradley. In fact I doubt you can come up with examples of players on Steimsma's level not getting chances under Doc.

In 06/07, Big Al's break out year, Jefferson was coming off the bench behind Paul Pierce and Theo Ratliff who were starting PF/C. He was doing well off the bench, but didn't start until Ratliff got injured. If I remember correctly the starting lineup for the first few games was Telfair, T.Allen, Szczerbiack, Pierce, Ratliff.

  Ratliff only played 2 games that year, it wasn't the problem. Also remember that Al was having ankle injuries over the summer that extended into the season. Also Al was starting to rack up big minutes the year before until he went down with an injury.
Title: Re: Time for Doc to go.
Post by: BballTim on December 19, 2012, 06:16:02 PM
Doc didn't really have a ton of options with the team we had in the playoffs last year.

And if Doc had had options, we might still not know how good Avery Bradly could be or known whether Steamer could play or not.

Mike

  I think the assumption that Doc never would have played Bradley is pretty ridiculous.

I think that statement is pretty ridiculous.  Bradley was forced in and so was steamer, while guys like jjj and Moore road the pine all year even during garbage time.  Holy crap does  anyone think spoelstra is a
great coach?  Prob not in his first year but they got to the finals.  Now do u think he woulda gotten anywhere without bron Wade and bosh?  The players make the team.

  Bradley was forced into the lineup earlier in the year and didn't look anywhere near as good on offense as he did in the spring.
Title: Re: Time for Doc to go.
Post by: Edgar on December 19, 2012, 06:17:15 PM
The problem with Doc is Not, not playing the young guys or the old guys or the pgs, or small ball

Is coaching desitions and rotations overall.


Not adjusting and all the things related with during game basketball.

so he is a terrible in game coach? wow. your postings are confirming my assumptions from the evidence presented this year so far. sad indeed.

Yes.... he pretty much stinked in that

p.s.
IF the good thing youre as a coach is mentoring and motivation and youre not mentoring and your players are not motivated.... then......
Title: Re: Time for Doc to go.
Post by: Celtics4ever on December 19, 2012, 06:51:05 PM
Doc is only as good as his players most of the time.   He is good at the come from behind rallies but X and Os wise not so much.  He is a good leader but not a tactician on the court.
Title: Re: Time for Doc to go.
Post by: Who on December 19, 2012, 07:01:11 PM
Doc didn't really have a ton of options with the team we had in the playoffs last year.

And if Doc had had options, we might still not know how good Avery Bradly could be or known whether Steamer could play or not.

Mike

  I think the assumption that Doc never would have played Bradley is pretty ridiculous.

I think that statement is pretty ridiculous.  Bradley was forced in and so was steamer, while guys like jjj and Moore road the pine all year even during garbage time.  Holy crap does  anyone think spoelstra is a
great coach?  Prob not in his first year but they got to the finals.  Now do u think he woulda gotten anywhere without bron Wade and bosh?  The players make the team.

  Bradley was forced into the lineup earlier in the year and didn't look anywhere near as good on offense as he did in the spring.

I thought the main reason for Bradley's improved play in that second spell vs earlier in the year was because Bradley (SG) got to play alongside Rondo (PG) in that second spell.

A lot of those efficient scoring opportunities - the transition hoops, the off the ball cuts, the corner three pointers. They came when Rondo was alongside Bradley. That was what generated his improved offensive play.

Playing off the ball and off an elite playmaker like Rondo put Bradley in position to make / take advantage of those opportunities.

I think defensively Bradley was very strong early in the season (as a PG) and I think offensively his performance level was very similar to how he performed late on in the season when he was on the court without Rondo. When Rondo rested. Less efficient. More dribbling. Asked to make more decisions on the ball. More long twos at the top of the key instead of cuts to the rim and corner threes.
Title: Re: Time for Doc to go.
Post by: Edgar on December 19, 2012, 07:02:04 PM
Rondo saying that its not on the coach is good
Doc saying theyre not a good team right now is right but wrong

 >:(

I am even mad at Doc right now


And I agree with Tomy its difficult to find the rotations but hes paid to do that and supposed to be good at that
and blames the "team" not mention once that HE have to find a right rotation
To find a NEW WAY of winning (tommy)

Title: Re: Time for Doc to go.
Post by: Boston Garden Leprechaun on December 19, 2012, 07:23:37 PM
Rondo saying that its not on the coach is good
Doc saying theyre not a good team right now is right but wrong

 >:(

I am even mad at Doc right now


And I agree with Tomy its difficult to find the rotations but hes paid to do that and supposed to be good at that
and blames the "team" not mention once that HE have to find a right rotation
To find a NEW WAY of winning (tommy)

HOW ABOUT GLENN IS NOT A GOOD COACH RIGHT NOW? AND HIS OFFENSIVE STRATEGIES ARE GARBAGE.
Title: Re: Time for Doc to go.
Post by: Celticfankb on December 19, 2012, 08:03:47 PM
And replace Doc with who?

Those who are complaining about our offense must note that our personnel has been  mostly of the jump shooting style since 08. You can not implement a new offensive game plan with the same personnel.

Doc is a great coach. I'm sure if he had the horses he would most assuredly put in a few wrinkles to reflect such.
Title: Re: Time for Doc to go.
Post by: Who on December 19, 2012, 08:09:02 PM
And replace Doc with who?

Those who are complaining about our offense must note that our personnel has been  mostly of the jump shooting style since 08. You can not implement a new offensive game plan with the same personnel.

Doc is a great coach. I'm sure if he had the horses he would most assuredly put in a few wrinkles to reflect such.

Nate McMillan and Stan Van Gundy are my top two available head coaching options.
Title: Re: Time for Doc to go.
Post by: mr. dee on December 19, 2012, 08:22:56 PM
And replace Doc with who?

Those who are complaining about our offense must note that our personnel has been  mostly of the jump shooting style since 08. You can not implement a new offensive game plan with the same personnel.

Doc is a great coach. I'm sure if he had the horses he would most assuredly put in a few wrinkles to reflect such.
Jerry Sloan. He did wonders with Stock and Malone.
Title: Re: Time for Doc to go.
Post by: ManUp on December 19, 2012, 08:37:38 PM
And replace Doc with who?

Those who are complaining about our offense must note that our personnel has been  mostly of the jump shooting style since 08. You can not implement a new offensive game plan with the same personnel.

Doc is a great coach. I'm sure if he had the horses he would most assuredly put in a few wrinkles to reflect such.

Nate McMillan and Stan Van Gundy are my top two available head coaching options.

If I was picking between the 3 I'd go with McMillan.
Title: Re: Time for Doc to go.
Post by: ScottHow on December 19, 2012, 08:43:18 PM
Before we get rid of Doc, I'd rather get rid of Pierce and KG.

I know that might sound crazy to some, but look at the available coaches out there. Not much to pick from. This losing has nothing to do with Doc, it's about our team being full of old players who have declined too much over the offseason.

Last year Doc got credit for being a great coach, does anyone think he forgot how to be a great coach?
Title: Re: Time for Doc to go.
Post by: GreenFaith1819 on December 19, 2012, 09:46:45 PM
I agree wholeheartedly!

Time for Doc to go on coaching the Boston Celtics for the next few yrs.
Title: Re: Time for Doc to go.
Post by: Celticfankb on December 19, 2012, 09:50:00 PM
Replace Doc with who?

Those who are complaining about the offense should note that the offensive personnel has mostly consisted of jump shooters since 08.  In order to implement a different offensive scheme, we must have the right personnel to fit such.

Doc is a great and smart coach.  He most assuredly would add a few new plays, if he had the horses.
Title: Re: Time for Doc to go.
Post by: Edgar on December 19, 2012, 09:52:47 PM
Doc did well starting and playing a +23 Jason Collins tonight
Title: Re: Time for Doc to go.
Post by: Boston Garden Leprechaun on December 19, 2012, 09:58:44 PM
Doc did well starting and playing a +23 Jason Collins tonight

now if only collins can make some alley oops or lay ins under the basket...ya know maybe score a few buckets? :-\
Title: Re: Time for Doc to go.
Post by: European NBA fan on December 19, 2012, 09:59:20 PM
Doc did well starting and playing a +23 Jason Collins tonight

Our defense and small ball just doesn't fit together. Small ball should be reserved for teams where our inside defense doesn't matter that much.
Title: Re: Time for Doc to go.
Post by: Boston Garden Leprechaun on December 19, 2012, 10:01:33 PM
Doc did well starting and playing a +23 Jason Collins tonight

Our defense and small ball just doesn't fit together. Small ball should be reserved for teams where our inside defense doesn't matter that much.

most of us have said that from the get go...but doc knew best!  ::)
Title: Re: Time for Doc to go.
Post by: Edgar on December 19, 2012, 10:03:25 PM
Doc did well starting and playing a +23 Jason Collins tonight

Our defense and small ball just doesn't fit together. Small ball should be reserved for teams where our inside defense doesn't matter that much.

most of us have said that from the get go...but doc knew best!  ::)

as usual... Need is the mother of all virtues ( is that how you say that)

add to my original post that I am not for a second nothing even close to a Doc fan,
Title: Re: Time for Doc to go.
Post by: Boston Garden Leprechaun on December 19, 2012, 10:05:14 PM
Doc did well starting and playing a +23 Jason Collins tonight

Our defense and small ball just doesn't fit together. Small ball should be reserved for teams where our inside defense doesn't matter that much.

most of us have said that from the get go...but doc knew best!  ::)

as usual... Need is the mother of all virtues ( is that how you say that)

add to my original post that I am not for a second nothing even close to a Doc fan,

 ;D
Title: Re: Time for Doc to go.
Post by: BballTim on December 19, 2012, 10:08:22 PM
Doc didn't really have a ton of options with the team we had in the playoffs last year.

And if Doc had had options, we might still not know how good Avery Bradly could be or known whether Steamer could play or not.

Mike

  I think the assumption that Doc never would have played Bradley is pretty ridiculous.

I think that statement is pretty ridiculous.  Bradley was forced in and so was steamer, while guys like jjj and Moore road the pine all year even during garbage time.  Holy crap does  anyone think spoelstra is a
great coach?  Prob not in his first year but they got to the finals.  Now do u think he woulda gotten anywhere without bron Wade and bosh?  The players make the team.

  Bradley was forced into the lineup earlier in the year and didn't look anywhere near as good on offense as he did in the spring.

I thought the main reason for Bradley's improved play in that second spell vs earlier in the year was because Bradley (SG) got to play alongside Rondo (PG) in that second spell.

A lot of those efficient scoring opportunities - the transition hoops, the off the ball cuts, the corner three pointers. They came when Rondo was alongside Bradley. That was what generated his improved offensive play.

Playing off the ball and off an elite playmaker like Rondo put Bradley in position to make / take advantage of those opportunities.

I think defensively Bradley was very strong early in the season (as a PG) and I think offensively his performance level was very similar to how he performed late on in the season when he was on the court without Rondo. When Rondo rested. Less efficient. More dribbling. Asked to make more decisions on the ball. More long twos at the top of the key instead of cuts to the rim and corner threes.

  I don't disagree with that but Bradley clearly became more confident in looking for his own offense near the end of the season.
Title: Re: Time for Doc to go.
Post by: FatjohnReturns on December 21, 2012, 10:40:42 PM
 This is bad coaching these guys look lost. Without Pierces heroics we get beat down hard. Doc isnt getting it done.

1) Why is Terry being reduced to a catch and shoot player? Tonight he needed a couple freebies to get on tract. No pick and rolls or backdoor screens for Jason. Instead Doc has him float out on the perimeter and launch threes.

2)Why isnt Rondo running the ball up the court? Even Tommy on air is calling Rondo out for walking the ball up the court.

3)Why does our offense always struggle to score no matter who is on the roster?

4)Doc is playing KG too many minutes. When KG misses alot of jumpers its because his legs are gone. He is working his ass off on defense and he is like the second option on offense. When Sanders dunked over top of KG i could just tell his legs were totally gone. He is all we have though so Doc is overplaying him and also Pierce. You should have played Darko and KG together to start the season Doc.

Instead we got Doc's small ball dream. Now even Ainge is saying on record we need to play different. Way to stay ahead of it DOc.

Every run ends. Time for Doc to go
Title: Re: Time for Doc to go.
Post by: blink on December 21, 2012, 10:49:02 PM
I think doc deserves about 10% of the blame with our poor start.  Yeah he could have managed his rotations better.  but cmon, it comes down to our players.

RR, PP, KG have played pretty well, pretty consistent. 
Everyone else, no they haven't.  Bass, Terry, Jeff Green, Jet, C Lee...all have been disappointments to some degree.

add that to losing darko, who we thought might actually help leaves us really thin in players that consistently make a significant contribution.  I think Sully is the only player other than the big 3 who has exceeded my expectations for the season.

So to sum up, you have two old guys PP/KG who are still great but are showing their age, one superb point guard and then the drop off is pretty big.  Doc has no control over that.
Title: Re: Time for Doc to go.
Post by: vinnie on December 21, 2012, 10:50:44 PM
I think doc deserves about 10% of the blame with our poor start.  Yeah he could have managed his rotations better.  but cmon, it comes down to our players.

RR, PP, KG have played pretty well, pretty consistent. 
Everyone else, no they haven't.  Bass, Terry, Jeff Green, Jet, C Lee...all have been disappointments to some degree.

add that to losing darko, who we thought might actually help leaves us really thin in players that consistently make a significant contribution.  I think Sully is the only player other than the big 3 who has exceeded my expectations for the season.

So to sum up, you have two old guys PP/KG who are still great but are showing their age, one superb point guard and then the drop off is pretty big.  Doc has no control over that.

Not sure how Darko could have helped since he never got off the bench. I would put a lot more than 10 percent on Doc. Trying to force feed a system that worked for the old Celtics simply isn't going to get it done. Trying to make Jason Terry play like Ray Allen isn't going to get it done. Playing extreme small ball isn't going to get it done. And so on.
Title: Re: Time for Doc to go.
Post by: SHAQATTACK on December 21, 2012, 10:52:14 PM
Doc should have had the Guard drivng into the paint and attacking ... the Celtics built the ULTIMATE brick house tonight.  ....

When your best players aren't hitting , Ie KG and JET , the DOC needs to direct the offense into the paint.... every play , to at least get fouls to tread water , till the teams jumper returns


Maybe DOc needs to REWATCH his coaching on TV and SEE ALL the poor coaching he did.

He really sucked tonight.
Title: Re: Time for Doc to go.
Post by: Edgar on December 21, 2012, 10:54:55 PM
Outchoached with lesser players


see.... Mboute Matute or however you write his name
Title: Re: Time for Doc to go.
Post by: FatjohnReturns on December 21, 2012, 10:55:05 PM
I think doc deserves about 10% of the blame with our poor start.  Yeah he could have managed his rotations better.  but cmon, it comes down to our players.

RR, PP, KG have played pretty well, pretty consistent. 
Everyone else, no they haven't.  Bass, Terry, Jeff Green, Jet, C Lee...all have been disappointments to some degree.

add that to losing darko, who we thought might actually help leaves us really thin in players that consistently make a significant contribution.  I think Sully is the only player other than the big 3 who has exceeded my expectations for the season.

So to sum up, you have two old guys PP/KG who are still great but are showing their age, one superb point guard and then the drop off is pretty big.  Doc has no control over that.

Sorry your wrong. These same players with Jerry Sloan or Jeff Van Gundy would be second or third in the East.
Title: Re: Time for Doc to go.
Post by: blink on December 21, 2012, 10:55:38 PM
So you are saying it is Doc's fault that Darko left?  I don't think that is the case.

Doc is dealing with the players that he was given.  It isn't Doc's fault that we don't have a good def big to protect the paint.  It isn't completely Doc's fault when KG / Jet shoot 7/35.  Doc isn't faultless, but to me most of this is on the players.  We just don't have that talented of a team.  And what talent we do have is over the hill and needs help to win consistently.

We might get better as the season goes on, I really hope so.
Title: Re: Time for Doc to go.
Post by: vinnie on December 21, 2012, 10:56:29 PM
So you are saying it is Doc's fault that Darko left?  I don't think that is the case.

Doc is dealing with the players that he was given.  It isn't Doc's fault that we don't have a good def big to protect the paint.  It isn't completely Doc's fault when KG / Jet shoot 7/35.  Doc isn't faultless, but to me most of this is on the players.  We just don't have that talented of a team.  And what talent we do have is over the hill and needs help to win consistently.

We might get better as the season goes on, I really hope so.

No, I am saying Darko never got off the bench when he was here, so why would anyone think he was going to help the team?
Title: Re: Time for Doc to go.
Post by: Edgar on December 21, 2012, 10:57:55 PM
They only way whe could know if another coach can do better with this team is...................




Title: Re: Time for Doc to go.
Post by: blink on December 21, 2012, 10:58:52 PM
I think doc deserves about 10% of the blame with our poor start.  Yeah he could have managed his rotations better.  but cmon, it comes down to our players.

RR, PP, KG have played pretty well, pretty consistent. 
Everyone else, no they haven't.  Bass, Terry, Jeff Green, Jet, C Lee...all have been disappointments to some degree.

add that to losing darko, who we thought might actually help leaves us really thin in players that consistently make a significant contribution.  I think Sully is the only player other than the big 3 who has exceeded my expectations for the season.

So to sum up, you have two old guys PP/KG who are still great but are showing their age, one superb point guard and then the drop off is pretty big.  Doc has no control over that.

Sorry your wrong. These same players with Jerry Sloan or Jeff Van Gundy would be second or third in the East.

And how do you know that?  KG / PP wouldn't even have came back to play for either of those coaches.  What makes you think that our roster would be better off with another coach?  Just because you say something doesn't make it automatically true.

Everyone on this board has such a short memory.  Last year everyone was singing doc's praises.  I personally feel this is more on the players.  Just like any other pro sport. 
Title: Re: Time for Doc to go.
Post by: blink on December 21, 2012, 11:00:17 PM
So you are saying it is Doc's fault that Darko left?  I don't think that is the case.

Doc is dealing with the players that he was given.  It isn't Doc's fault that we don't have a good def big to protect the paint.  It isn't completely Doc's fault when KG / Jet shoot 7/35.  Doc isn't faultless, but to me most of this is on the players.  We just don't have that talented of a team.  And what talent we do have is over the hill and needs help to win consistently.

We might get better as the season goes on, I really hope so.

No, I am saying Darko never got off the bench when he was here, so why would anyone think he was going to help the team?

Well I was saying it within the context of one less big to help out.  Darko was better than Collins, but we have no idea what the real story is for why he left, or why he wasn't getting pt.

Title: Re: Time for Doc to go.
Post by: SHAQATTACK on December 21, 2012, 11:01:02 PM
Outchoached with lesser players



Thats it ... Doc didn't make the necessary moves to right the ship during the game,  heck even my zero IQ BBall wife ,  says ....WHAT is RIVERS doing...?   I could n't say anything , I was steaming mad and frustrated ..well I ... I flipped it off and watch something more important "ANCIENT ALIENS"
Title: Re: Time for Doc to go.
Post by: FatjohnReturns on December 21, 2012, 11:01:45 PM
So you are saying it is Doc's fault that Darko left?  I don't think that is the case.

Doc is dealing with the players that he was given.  It isn't Doc's fault that we don't have a good def big to protect the paint.  It isn't completely Doc's fault when KG / Jet shoot 7/35.  Doc isn't faultless, but to me most of this is on the players.  We just don't have that talented of a team.  And what talent we do have is over the hill and needs help to win consistently.

We might get better as the season goes on, I really hope so.

No, I am saying Darko never got off the bench when he was here, so why would anyone think he was going to help the team?

When he played preseason overseas he played well. We will never get to see him and KG together. Unless we make a trade he was the best option at Center.

 
Title: Re: Time for Doc to go.
Post by: FatjohnReturns on December 21, 2012, 11:04:10 PM
I think doc deserves about 10% of the blame with our poor start.  Yeah he could have managed his rotations better.  but cmon, it comes down to our players.

RR, PP, KG have played pretty well, pretty consistent. 
Everyone else, no they haven't.  Bass, Terry, Jeff Green, Jet, C Lee...all have been disappointments to some degree.

add that to losing darko, who we thought might actually help leaves us really thin in players that consistently make a significant contribution.  I think Sully is the only player other than the big 3 who has exceeded my expectations for the season.

So to sum up, you have two old guys PP/KG who are still great but are showing their age, one superb point guard and then the drop off is pretty big.  Doc has no control over that.

Sorry your wrong. These same players with Jerry Sloan or Jeff Van Gundy would be second or third in the East.

And how do you know that?  KG / PP wouldn't even have came back to play for either of those coaches.  What makes you think that our roster would be better off with another coach?  Just because you say something doesn't make it automatically true.

Everyone on this board has such a short memory.  Last year everyone was singing doc's praises.  I personally feel this is more on the players.  Just like any other pro sport.

"KG / PP wouldn't even have came back to play for either of those coaches"  "Just because you say something doesn't make it automatically true."
Title: Re: Time for Doc to go.
Post by: PhoSita on December 21, 2012, 11:04:43 PM
I don't think it's going too far to say that Doc is a very good manager of talent, and he's great at drawing up plays, but he's far from the best when it comes to adjusting his system and his gameplan when his roster calls for it.
Title: Re: Time for Doc to go.
Post by: Edgar on December 21, 2012, 11:06:29 PM
At least I have my soul clear.I ve never as in never, been a Doc Rivers with more than 8 players fan.
He seems to manage rotations as good as I manage learning and writing proper english
Title: Re: Time for Doc to go.
Post by: blink on December 21, 2012, 11:07:34 PM
I think doc deserves about 10% of the blame with our poor start.  Yeah he could have managed his rotations better.  but cmon, it comes down to our players.

RR, PP, KG have played pretty well, pretty consistent. 
Everyone else, no they haven't.  Bass, Terry, Jeff Green, Jet, C Lee...all have been disappointments to some degree.

add that to losing darko, who we thought might actually help leaves us really thin in players that consistently make a significant contribution.  I think Sully is the only player other than the big 3 who has exceeded my expectations for the season.

So to sum up, you have two old guys PP/KG who are still great but are showing their age, one superb point guard and then the drop off is pretty big.  Doc has no control over that.

Sorry your wrong. These same players with Jerry Sloan or Jeff Van Gundy would be second or third in the East.

And how do you know that?  KG / PP wouldn't even have came back to play for either of those coaches.  What makes you think that our roster would be better off with another coach?  Just because you say something doesn't make it automatically true.

Everyone on this board has such a short memory.  Last year everyone was singing doc's praises.  I personally feel this is more on the players.  Just like any other pro sport.

"KG / PP wouldn't even have came back to play for either of those coaches"  "Just because you say something doesn't make it automatically true."

Well both guys have gone on record that they wanted to play for Doc.  KG has basically said that he wasn't coming back unless Doc was.  So what is your point?

The random speculation about what other coaches could do is a lot different than something that players have actually said to the media.
Title: Re: Time for Doc to go.
Post by: Edgar on December 21, 2012, 11:09:19 PM
I think doc deserves about 10% of the blame with our poor start.  Yeah he could have managed his rotations better.  but cmon, it comes down to our players.

RR, PP, KG have played pretty well, pretty consistent. 
Everyone else, no they haven't.  Bass, Terry, Jeff Green, Jet, C Lee...all have been disappointments to some degree.

add that to losing darko, who we thought might actually help leaves us really thin in players that consistently make a significant contribution.  I think Sully is the only player other than the big 3 who has exceeded my expectations for the season.

So to sum up, you have two old guys PP/KG who are still great but are showing their age, one superb point guard and then the drop off is pretty big.  Doc has no control over that.

Sorry your wrong. These same players with Jerry Sloan or Jeff Van Gundy would be second or third in the East.

And how do you know that?  KG / PP wouldn't even have came back to play for either of those coaches.  What makes you think that our roster would be better off with another coach?  Just because you say something doesn't make it automatically true.

Everyone on this board has such a short memory.  Last year everyone was singing doc's praises.  I personally feel this is more on the players.  Just like any other pro sport.

"KG / PP wouldn't even have came back to play for either of those coaches"  "Just because you say something doesn't make it automatically true."

Well both guys have gone on record that they wanted to play for Doc.  KG has basically said that he wasn't coming back unless Doc was.  So what is your point?

The random speculation about what other coaches could do is a lot different than something that players have actually said to the media.

Well even KG can be wrong from time to time on what he wants
Title: Re: Time for Doc to go.
Post by: FatjohnReturns on December 21, 2012, 11:23:24 PM
I think doc deserves about 10% of the blame with our poor start.  Yeah he could have managed his rotations better.  but cmon, it comes down to our players.

RR, PP, KG have played pretty well, pretty consistent. 
Everyone else, no they haven't.  Bass, Terry, Jeff Green, Jet, C Lee...all have been disappointments to some degree.

add that to losing darko, who we thought might actually help leaves us really thin in players that consistently make a significant contribution.  I think Sully is the only player other than the big 3 who has exceeded my expectations for the season.

So to sum up, you have two old guys PP/KG who are still great but are showing their age, one superb point guard and then the drop off is pretty big.  Doc has no control over that.

Sorry your wrong. These same players with Jerry Sloan or Jeff Van Gundy would be second or third in the East.

And how do you know that?  KG / PP wouldn't even have came back to play for either of those coaches.  What makes you think that our roster would be better off with another coach?  Just because you say something doesn't make it automatically true.

Everyone on this board has such a short memory.  Last year everyone was singing doc's praises.  I personally feel this is more on the players.  Just like any other pro sport.

"KG / PP wouldn't even have came back to play for either of those coaches"  "Just because you say something doesn't make it automatically true."

Well both guys have gone on record that they wanted to play for Doc.  KG has basically said that he wasn't coming back unless Doc was.  So what is your point?

The random speculation about what other coaches could do is a lot different than something that players have actually said to the media.

Oh cmon man. What do you expect them to say?
KG and Pierce have Celtic pride and loyalty.

The bottom line is Doc isnt getting results.
Now its just my opinion but I believe he is a poor coach and others could do better with the same players.
Title: Re: Time for Doc to go.
Post by: blink on December 21, 2012, 11:32:08 PM
I think doc deserves about 10% of the blame with our poor start.  Yeah he could have managed his rotations better.  but cmon, it comes down to our players.

RR, PP, KG have played pretty well, pretty consistent. 
Everyone else, no they haven't.  Bass, Terry, Jeff Green, Jet, C Lee...all have been disappointments to some degree.

add that to losing darko, who we thought might actually help leaves us really thin in players that consistently make a significant contribution.  I think Sully is the only player other than the big 3 who has exceeded my expectations for the season.

So to sum up, you have two old guys PP/KG who are still great but are showing their age, one superb point guard and then the drop off is pretty big.  Doc has no control over that.

Sorry your wrong. These same players with Jerry Sloan or Jeff Van Gundy would be second or third in the East.

And how do you know that?  KG / PP wouldn't even have came back to play for either of those coaches.  What makes you think that our roster would be better off with another coach?  Just because you say something doesn't make it automatically true.

Everyone on this board has such a short memory.  Last year everyone was singing doc's praises.  I personally feel this is more on the players.  Just like any other pro sport.

"KG / PP wouldn't even have came back to play for either of those coaches"  "Just because you say something doesn't make it automatically true."

Well both guys have gone on record that they wanted to play for Doc.  KG has basically said that he wasn't coming back unless Doc was.  So what is your point?

The random speculation about what other coaches could do is a lot different than something that players have actually said to the media.

Oh cmon man. What do you expect them to say?
KG and Pierce have Celtic pride and loyalty.

The bottom line is Doc isnt getting results.
Now its just my opinion but I believe he is a poor coach and others could do better with the same players.

So you think KG's and PP's celtic pride is going to make them stick their neck out for a bad coach and a coach that they don't respect?  Makes no sense.

I just disagree with you.  You can say I am wrong, whatever.  I don't think we need to change coaches.  I think we need to play with more hustle, effort and consistency.  And maybe trade for a big man who can be a threat on both sides of the ball.

Title: Re: Time for Doc to go.
Post by: SHAQATTACK on December 21, 2012, 11:34:10 PM
I like Doc as person , and I think he is a good coach. 
BUttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttt



Doc needs to  "OWN"  this loss.....its a classic bit of NON- COACHING as I've seen lately.
Title: Re: Time for Doc to go.
Post by: Big Rondo on December 22, 2012, 12:30:29 AM
Lets give Terry Francona a run at the Cs.

Doc can go manage those BUMS over at Fenway.
Title: Re: Time for Doc to go.
Post by: Celtics18 on December 22, 2012, 12:33:42 AM
I thought that was a well coached game by Doc.  Someone remind me what he did so terribly wrong tonight?
Title: Re: Time for Doc to go.
Post by: hpantazo on December 22, 2012, 12:40:06 AM
Doc is our biggest draw for players, getting rid of him is crazy. KG, Pierce, Rondo are all on record saying they only want to play for Doc the rest of their careers. Lee, Bass, Pietrus, and Green all wanted to come here because of Doc specifically. We lost because Terry and KG couldn't hit the broadside of a barn tonight. It happens sometimes, that's not Doc's fault. When you stick with your players, they learn to respect you.
Title: Re: Time for Doc to go.
Post by: illestmcsgt on December 22, 2012, 01:04:51 AM
There is no way Ainge would fire him at this point. Doc wanted to retire last summer to spend time with his family. If it wasn't for him resigning, Garnett would have retired. Why would Ainge slap them both in the face and try to find a new coach already? Who is out there that is better than Doc besides Phil Jackson and Jerry Sloan?

We are not the Lakers!!!, Why is it when a team doesn't match expectations it's fire that guy and trade this guy. I have grown tired of fans who make statements like this that makes no sense. Look at it this way, if Doc goes, Garnett goes, and Pierce goes too... Without those three we are a lottery team like the Wizards. '06-07 again?
Title: Re: Time for Doc to go.
Post by: PhoSita on December 22, 2012, 01:15:02 AM
At least I have my soul clear.I ve never as in never, been a Doc Rivers with more than 8 players fan.
He seems to manage rotations as good as I manage learning and writing proper english

TP
Title: Re: Time for Doc to go.
Post by: Celtics18 on December 22, 2012, 01:19:10 AM
At least I have my soul clear.I ve never as in never, been a Doc Rivers with more than 8 players fan.
He seems to manage rotations as good as I manage learning and writing proper english

That's your harshest criticism of Doc yet.  It can't be that bad.
Title: Re: Time for Doc to go.
Post by: CelticsFan9 on December 22, 2012, 01:28:07 AM
I thought that was a well coached game by Doc.  Someone remind me what he did so terribly wrong tonight?

Played Terry way too much.
Title: Re: Time for Doc to go.
Post by: KGs Knee on December 22, 2012, 01:37:34 AM
"KG / PP wouldn't even have came back to play for either of those coaches"  "Just because you say something doesn't make it automatically true."

Turning a blind eye to reality doesn't make it any less real.

KG would have retired if Doc didn't come back.  Pierce probably comes back.  It would have been a farewell tour for Pierce, though. If the team struggles, he either asks for a trade, or retires at the end of the year.
Title: Re: Time for Doc to go.
Post by: Celtics18 on December 22, 2012, 01:52:13 AM
I thought that was a well coached game by Doc.  Someone remind me what he did so terribly wrong tonight?

Played Terry way too much.

Oh, that one.  I kept waiting for Jet to make a big shot late and make Doc look like a genius for sticking with him.  Alas, not to be.  And, hindsight is always 20/20.
Title: Re: Time for Doc to go.
Post by: Tai on December 22, 2012, 02:33:18 AM
This topic completely compromised it's credibility to me when it started talking about whether the young guys weren't being played enough.
Title: Re: Time for Doc to go.
Post by: j804 on December 22, 2012, 05:19:25 AM
I like Doc as person , and I think he is a good coach. 
BUttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttt



Doc needs to  "OWN"  this loss.....its a classic bit of NON- COACHING as I've seen lately.
what did Doc do wrong this game?

this loss had more to do with poor play from KG, Terry and Rondo not playing as good as needs to for us to be good
Title: Re: Time for Doc to go.
Post by: Galeto on December 22, 2012, 06:44:04 AM
I can't fault Doc for this game.  He even played KG for longer stretches like I've been desperately pleading for within the confines of my house.  I would've kept putting Terry back out there as well because he's too good of a shooter to keep missing wide open shots like he did.  They had to go in sometime (or not as it turned out, not even his long football style shot at the very end which should have gone in to complete his nightmare game) and regardless of what went on before, I would've taken my chances with Terry making a shot over Lee.

It wasn't like Doc didn't sit down Terry either.  He pulled Terry early in the third quarter after the misses kept piling up and didn't re-insert him until about 10 minutes of game time had elapsed.

My only quibble with Doc is that he didn't go back to Pierce and Green on the wing together.  The Celtics are one of the few teams who can put together a wing tandem with size, strength and post up ability.  He needs to utilize this advantage.  As well as it worked in the first quarter, I can't understand why he didn't go back to it, especially with Terry struggling.  Lee played well but Pierce and Green can be a more effective, dangerous duo.
Title: Re: Time for Doc to go.
Post by: mctyson on December 22, 2012, 07:42:31 AM
It's not Doc's fault Jason Terry went 1 for 1,230,932 from field.
Title: Re: Time for Doc to go.
Post by: Boston Garden Leprechaun on December 22, 2012, 07:49:11 AM
I like Doc as person , and I think he is a good coach. 
BUttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttt



Doc needs to  "OWN"  this loss.....its a classic bit of NON- COACHING as I've seen lately.
what did Doc do wrong this game?



this loss had more to do with poor play from KG, Terry and Rondo not playing as good as needs to for us to be good


real simple. when we could not hit a J to save our lives he has 3 dribble drivers and green and KG who can post up. did we try that? NO. not until OT then KG choked.
Title: Re: Time for Doc to go.
Post by: crownsy on December 22, 2012, 08:12:42 AM
I like Doc as person , and I think he is a good coach. 
BUttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttt



Doc needs to  "OWN"  this loss.....its a classic bit of NON- COACHING as I've seen lately.
what did Doc do wrong this game?



this loss had more to do with poor play from KG, Terry and Rondo not playing as good as needs to for us to be good


real simple. when we could not hit a J to save our lives he has 3 dribble drivers and green and KG who can post up. did we try that? NO. not until OT then KG choked.

Oh, so the secret to getting KG to play onthe block is just to tell him to post up?

You think every coach he's had in the league hasen't told him that? KG is nearly unstoppable on the low block, yet for going on what....17 years in the league now? the criticism of him is that he takes too many jump shots.

Whats more likely:

1) every coach he's had is an idiot, and hasen't figured out they should abuse him on the block

or

2) KG doesn't really like to play in the post, would rather run the pick and pop game.

This loss isn't on Doc, it's on not having a big who can rebound/ a shot blocker.

Teams have zero fear of driving the lane against us because who's going to block the shot? KG and that's it.

But he's easily neutralized by either having a jump shooting big man pull him out of the paint or just waiting till he goes to the bench.
Title: Re: Time for Doc to go.
Post by: Boston Garden Leprechaun on December 22, 2012, 08:28:16 AM
I like Doc as person , and I think he is a good coach. 
BUttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttt



Doc needs to  "OWN"  this loss.....its a classic bit of NON- COACHING as I've seen lately.
what did Doc do wrong this game?



this loss had more to do with poor play from KG, Terry and Rondo not playing as good as needs to for us to be good


real simple. when we could not hit a J to save our lives he has 3 dribble drivers and green and KG who can post up. did we try that? NO. not until OT then KG choked.

Oh, so the secret to getting KG to play onthe block is just to tell him to post up?

You think every coach he's had in the league hasen't told him that? KG is nearly unstoppable on the low block, yet for going on what....17 years in the league now? the criticism of him is that he takes too many jump shots.

Whats more likely:

1) every coach he's had is an idiot, and hasen't figured out they should abuse him on the block

or

2) KG doesn't really like to play in the post, would rather run the pick and pop game.

This loss isn't on Doc, it's on not having a big who can rebound/ a shot blocker.

Teams have zero fear of driving the lane against us because who's going to block the shot? KG and that's it.

But he's easily neutralized by either having a jump shooting big man pull him out of the paint or just waiting till he goes to the bench.

riiiiiiiiiiiight, let the players tell doc what they want. why even need doc then? marvelous!  ::)
Title: Re: Time for Doc to go.
Post by: SHAQATTACK on December 22, 2012, 08:38:41 AM
It's not Doc's fault Jason Terry went 1 for 1,230,932 from field.
What   ???Yes it is...Terry didn't put himself in the game, DOC is coach and put the brickster in the game when it was obvious to anyone with a TV set , that he was worthless against those young speedy guards .  No defense and no offense = SIT him on the bench.  He wasn't playing lockdown defense, he wasn't rebounding , be wasn't getting steals, what the blank was he doing in the game...it wasn't hitting shots...gee

Brilliant coaching job.   
Title: Re: Time for Doc to go.
Post by: Edgar on December 22, 2012, 08:44:34 AM
It's not Doc's fault Jason Terry went 1 for 1,230,932 from field.
What   ???Yes it is...Terry didn't put himself in the game, DOC is coach and put the brickster in the game when it was obvious to anyone with a TV set , that he was worthless against those young speedy guards .  No defense and no offense = SIT him on the bench.  He wasn't playing lockdown defense, he wasn't rebounding , be wasn't getting steals, what the blank was he doing in the game...it wasn't hitting shots...gee

Brilliant coaching job.   

To be honest is a little tough when Doc ALWAYS get the free pass. Even know he seems personally unwilling to take responsability. If you cant control your crew, sharks are the answer.
Title: Re: Time for Doc to go.
Post by: Rtpas11 on December 22, 2012, 08:48:56 AM
I've been saying it all along its time to give Kris Joseph a shot. I'm not sure what doc mindset is when choosing & playing players.

Kris Joseph has been awesome in the DLeafue to the exent the Celts recall him after every game he plays.

Micah Downs is another guy that played pretty well for us in the preseason. Rebounded well, hustled & shot decent. He's doing that plus more for the Red Claws right now. Not sure what Doc was thinking letting him go.

Release Collins & sign Micah. Trade Jeff & Bass to NOH for Ryan Anderson.

Danny its holiday vacation time, but you better be working.
Title: Re: Time for Doc to go.
Post by: Boston Garden Leprechaun on December 22, 2012, 08:54:38 AM
It's not Doc's fault Jason Terry went 1 for 1,230,932 from field.
What   ???Yes it is...Terry didn't put himself in the game, DOC is coach and put the brickster in the game when it was obvious to anyone with a TV set , that he was worthless against those young speedy guards .  No defense and no offense = SIT him on the bench.  He wasn't playing lockdown defense, he wasn't rebounding , be wasn't getting steals, what the blank was he doing in the game...it wasn't hitting shots...gee

Brilliant coaching job.   

To be honest is a little tough when Doc ALWAYS get the free pass. Even know he seems personally unwilling to take responsability. If you cant control your crew, sharks are the answer.

get someone who can. doc looks like a good ole boy coach. scared to make changes. scared to criticize vets. scared to bench vets. smashing square pegs into round holes over and over and over with his suicidal offensive schemes and styles. if we would pass the ball like other teams we would not even need rondo. i never thought i would say this but not only am i up for trading bass, lee, green etc. i am even up for trading rondo now. gasol? look, we are blowing this thing up in two years or shorter anyways. let's give it one last go. we really have nothing to lose. once PP and KG are gone rondo will be what? 30? are we really going to start from scratch with him at that age?
Title: Re: Time for Doc to go.
Post by: kozlodoev on December 22, 2012, 09:02:15 AM
get someone who can. doc looks like a good ole boy coach. scared to make changes. scared to criticize vets. scared to bench vets. smashing square pegs into round holes over and over and over with his suicidal offensive schemes and styles. if we would pass the ball like other teams we would not even need rondo. i never thought i would say this but not only am i up for trading bass, lee, green etc. i am even up for trading rondo now. gasol? look, we are blowing this thing up in two years or shorter anyways. let's give it one last go. we really have nothing to lose. once PP and KG are gone rondo will be what? 30? are we really going to start from scratch with him at that age?

That's exciting. But your imaginary picture of Doc just isn't true.
Title: Re: Time for Doc to go.
Post by: MBz on December 22, 2012, 09:03:24 AM
Hate to make this comparison but Doc is kind of like Terry Francona.  Sometimes, your players just get too comfortable and they need a change.  Doc is what he is.  We know what he's good at and what he's not.  His rotations and his offenses are his weaknesses.  Defense and plays out of timeouts are strengths.  He's definitely not worth the money he's getting paid, but he's not awful either.  If I had to guess, other then Pop he's probably the longest tenured coach in the league with one team.  Sometimes you just need change. 
Title: Re: Time for Doc to go.
Post by: Edgar on December 22, 2012, 09:05:00 AM
get someone who can. doc looks like a good ole boy coach. scared to make changes. scared to criticize vets. scared to bench vets. smashing square pegs into round holes over and over and over with his suicidal offensive schemes and styles. if we would pass the ball like other teams we would not even need rondo. i never thought i would say this but not only am i up for trading bass, lee, green etc. i am even up for trading rondo now. gasol? look, we are blowing this thing up in two years or shorter anyways. let's give it one last go. we really have nothing to lose. once PP and KG are gone rondo will be what? 30? are we really going to start from scratch with him at that age?

That's exciting. But your imaginary picture of Doc just isn't true.

the good ole boy part?
Title: Re: Time for Doc to go.
Post by: Boston Garden Leprechaun on December 22, 2012, 09:18:29 AM
get someone who can. doc looks like a good ole boy coach. scared to make changes. scared to criticize vets. scared to bench vets. smashing square pegs into round holes over and over and over with his suicidal offensive schemes and styles. if we would pass the ball like other teams we would not even need rondo. i never thought i would say this but not only am i up for trading bass, lee, green etc. i am even up for trading rondo now. gasol? look, we are blowing this thing up in two years or shorter anyways. let's give it one last go. we really have nothing to lose. once PP and KG are gone rondo will be what? 30? are we really going to start from scratch with him at that age?

That's exciting. But your imaginary picture of Doc just isn't true.

EL OH EL

wait, wait, you are right, he put in collins. great change. fabulous. That definitely got us to attack the basket more right? instead of shooting bricks?

Title: Re: Time for Doc to go.
Post by: Boston Garden Leprechaun on December 22, 2012, 09:23:45 AM
get someone who can. doc looks like a good ole boy coach. scared to make changes. scared to criticize vets. scared to bench vets. smashing square pegs into round holes over and over and over with his suicidal offensive schemes and styles. if we would pass the ball like other teams we would not even need rondo. i never thought i would say this but not only am i up for trading bass, lee, green etc. i am even up for trading rondo now. gasol? look, we are blowing this thing up in two years or shorter anyways. let's give it one last go. we really have nothing to lose. once PP and KG are gone rondo will be what? 30? are we really going to start from scratch with him at that age?

That's exciting. But your imaginary picture of Doc just isn't true.

the good ole boy part?
;D
everything i listed i have seen either anecdotal or empirical evidence of THIS YEAR. I am not talking about past years. he only benched RA last year because he had no choice.  :P
Title: Re: Time for Doc to go.
Post by: kozlodoev on December 22, 2012, 09:33:27 AM
get someone who can. doc looks like a good ole boy coach. scared to make changes. scared to criticize vets. scared to bench vets. smashing square pegs into round holes over and over and over with his suicidal offensive schemes and styles. if we would pass the ball like other teams we would not even need rondo. i never thought i would say this but not only am i up for trading bass, lee, green etc. i am even up for trading rondo now. gasol? look, we are blowing this thing up in two years or shorter anyways. let's give it one last go. we really have nothing to lose. once PP and KG are gone rondo will be what? 30? are we really going to start from scratch with him at that age?

That's exciting. But your imaginary picture of Doc just isn't true.

EL OH EL

wait, wait, you are right, he put in collins. great change. fabulous. That definitely got us to attack the basket more right? instead of shooting bricks?
He works with what he's got. And right now, he's got Collins, Garnett, Bass, and Sullinger to work with.

So you envision the problem being us not attacking the basket enough? How do you envision this happening? Benching Pierce (still our best offensive player at this point, sadly)? Playing Fab Melo? Not taking Rondo out of the game?

The problem of this team is that none of the new players (+ Bass) are performing at a level which their career numbers suggest they can, and that after Darko's departure our depth at center suddenly vanished in thin air.

Add to this the fact that Melo is clearly not ready, and Sullinger has been progressing slower than expected, and you got a team with issues.

"Passing the ball like other teams do"? This team is averaging 23 assist per game, which is good for second in the NBA (and shooting 47% from the floor in the process, fifth in the NBA).

The offense is clearly not the issue here. The inability to play any form of interior defense is. The really good Celtics teams from previous seasons thrived on solid interior rotations, stuffing penetration, and forcing other teams take long jumpers. This meant that we didn't have to doperforuble, trap, and engage in other funky business that left you ultimately exposed to easy baskets. Right now it's an easy basket galore against the Celtics. We're decidedly mediocre when it comes to opponent FG% and assists -- two things we've been good in preventing.

So no, it's not time for Doc to go. It's time for the personnel at hand to either perform, or brace for a trade.
Title: Re: Time for Doc to go.
Post by: kozlodoev on December 22, 2012, 09:38:47 AM
get someone who can. doc looks like a good ole boy coach. scared to make changes. scared to criticize vets. scared to bench vets. smashing square pegs into round holes over and over and over with his suicidal offensive schemes and styles. if we would pass the ball like other teams we would not even need rondo. i never thought i would say this but not only am i up for trading bass, lee, green etc. i am even up for trading rondo now. gasol? look, we are blowing this thing up in two years or shorter anyways. let's give it one last go. we really have nothing to lose. once PP and KG are gone rondo will be what? 30? are we really going to start from scratch with him at that age?

That's exciting. But your imaginary picture of Doc just isn't true.

the good ole boy part?
The part where he's an idiot who is afraid of change, and is trying to fit square pegs in round holes.

1. We've changed our defense radically this season. We double-team and trap. We had to, because our big men can't really stop anyone.

2. Doc is not ignoring an obvious solution for the situation. We have a center "hole", and a bunch of "pegs" that don't fit there very well. Wilcox doesn't defend, Collins does (sort of), but doesn't do anything else, and Melo is clearly not ready yet. If Darko was still on the roster, he'd be starting right now (and we'd probably be playing better). But he isn't, and the solution for the current situation is finding someone who can rebound, block shots, and rotate on defense off the scrap heap (good luck, 29 other teams are looking for this guy too).
Title: Re: Time for Doc to go.
Post by: MBunge on December 22, 2012, 10:05:31 AM
get someone who can. doc looks like a good ole boy coach. scared to make changes. scared to criticize vets. scared to bench vets. smashing square pegs into round holes over and over and over with his suicidal offensive schemes and styles. if we would pass the ball like other teams we would not even need rondo. i never thought i would say this but not only am i up for trading bass, lee, green etc. i am even up for trading rondo now. gasol? look, we are blowing this thing up in two years or shorter anyways. let's give it one last go. we really have nothing to lose. once PP and KG are gone rondo will be what? 30? are we really going to start from scratch with him at that age?

That's exciting. But your imaginary picture of Doc just isn't true.

the good ole boy part?
The part where he's an idiot who is afraid of change, and is trying to fit square pegs in round holes.

1. We've changed our defense radically this season. We double-team and trap. We had to, because our big men can't really stop anyone.

2. Doc is not ignoring an obvious solution for the situation. We have a center "hole", and a bunch of "pegs" that don't fit there very well. Wilcox doesn't defend, Collins does (sort of), but doesn't do anything else, and Melo is clearly not ready yet. If Darko was still on the roster, he'd be starting right now (and we'd probably be playing better). But he isn't, and the solution for the current situation is finding someone who can rebound, block shots, and rotate on defense off the scrap heap (good luck, 29 other teams are looking for this guy too).

1.  We don't blitz the pick abecause our big men can't stop anyone.  We do it because our permieter players, particularly Rondo, are terrible at fighting over picks and staying with their man.

2.  If our big men were really so worthless, we'd be double teaming like mad in the post and that's not really happening.  The defensive problems are in our rotations, which includes most everybody on the team and not just big men.

3.  Doc put Sully in the starting lineup.  He exiled Darko to the bench after one bad showing and never even bothered to give Collins a chance to have a bad showing.  He then just kept shuffling the same players back and forth until the season was nearly 14th over.

Mike
Title: Re: Time for Doc to go.
Post by: kozlodoev on December 22, 2012, 10:16:41 AM
get someone who can. doc looks like a good ole boy coach. scared to make changes. scared to criticize vets. scared to bench vets. smashing square pegs into round holes over and over and over with his suicidal offensive schemes and styles. if we would pass the ball like other teams we would not even need rondo. i never thought i would say this but not only am i up for trading bass, lee, green etc. i am even up for trading rondo now. gasol? look, we are blowing this thing up in two years or shorter anyways. let's give it one last go. we really have nothing to lose. once PP and KG are gone rondo will be what? 30? are we really going to start from scratch with him at that age?

That's exciting. But your imaginary picture of Doc just isn't true.

the good ole boy part?
The part where he's an idiot who is afraid of change, and is trying to fit square pegs in round holes.

1. We've changed our defense radically this season. We double-team and trap. We had to, because our big men can't really stop anyone.

2. Doc is not ignoring an obvious solution for the situation. We have a center "hole", and a bunch of "pegs" that don't fit there very well. Wilcox doesn't defend, Collins does (sort of), but doesn't do anything else, and Melo is clearly not ready yet. If Darko was still on the roster, he'd be starting right now (and we'd probably be playing better). But he isn't, and the solution for the current situation is finding someone who can rebound, block shots, and rotate on defense off the scrap heap (good luck, 29 other teams are looking for this guy too).

1.  We don't blitz the pick abecause our big men can't stop anyone.  We do it because our permieter players, particularly Rondo, are terrible at fighting over picks and staying with their man.

2.  If our big men were really so worthless, we'd be double teaming like mad in the post and that's not really happening.  The defensive problems are in our rotations, which includes most everybody on the team and not just big men.

3.  Doc put Sully in the starting lineup.  He exiled Darko to the bench after one bad showing and never even bothered to give Collins a chance to have a bad showing.  He then just kept shuffling the same players back and forth until the season was nearly 14th over.

Mike
1. Yes, and we don't blitz right now. We used to blitz a lot in previous seasons.

2. The problem with big men is that not that they give up points one-on-one. It's that they fail to rotate, giving up wide open layups. You don't fix that by double-teaming.

3. We didn't exile Darko after one bad showing. We just didn't play Darko (or Collins) at all. And Sullinger started because of our commitment to play Garnett at C, where he was excellent last year (I still think he's not best fit to play PF anymore, but when the personnel sucks so badly, you gotta try all combinations possible).

And by the time it became clear that the current lineup isn't performing, Darko wasn't here anymore.
Title: Re: Time for Doc to go.
Post by: Celtics18 on December 22, 2012, 11:08:09 AM
get someone who can. doc looks like a good ole boy coach. scared to make changes. scared to criticize vets. scared to bench vets. smashing square pegs into round holes over and over and over with his suicidal offensive schemes and styles. if we would pass the ball like other teams we would not even need rondo. i never thought i would say this but not only am i up for trading bass, lee, green etc. i am even up for trading rondo now. gasol? look, we are blowing this thing up in two years or shorter anyways. let's give it one last go. we really have nothing to lose. once PP and KG are gone rondo will be what? 30? are we really going to start from scratch with him at that age?

That's exciting. But your imaginary picture of Doc just isn't true.

EL OH EL

wait, wait, you are right, he put in collins. great change. fabulous. That definitely got us to attack the basket more right? instead of shooting bricks?
He works with what he's got. And right now, he's got Collins, Garnett, Bass, and Sullinger to work with.

So you envision the problem being us not attacking the basket enough? How do you envision this happening? Benching Pierce (still our best offensive player at this point, sadly)? Playing Fab Melo? Not taking Rondo out of the game?

The problem of this team is that none of the new players (+ Bass) are performing at a level which their career numbers suggest they can, and that after Darko's departure our depth at center suddenly vanished in thin air.

Add to this the fact that Melo is clearly not ready, and Sullinger has been progressing slower than expected, and you got a team with issues.

"Passing the ball like other teams do"? This team is averaging 23 assist per game, which is good for second in the NBA (and shooting 47% from the floor in the process, fifth in the NBA).

The offense is clearly not the issue here. The inability to play any form of interior defense is. The really good Celtics teams from previous seasons thrived on solid interior rotations, stuffing penetration, and forcing other teams take long jumpers. This meant that we didn't have to doperforuble, trap, and engage in other funky business that left you ultimately exposed to easy baskets. Right now it's an easy basket galore against the Celtics. We're decidedly mediocre when it comes to opponent FG% and assists -- two things we've been good in preventing.

So no, it's not time for Doc to go. It's time for the personnel at hand to either perform, or brace for a trade.

Is "doperforuble" a technical basketball term.  If it isn't, it should be. 
Title: Re: Time for Doc to go.
Post by: celtics2 on December 22, 2012, 11:21:43 AM

The offense is clearly not the issue here. The inability to play any form of interior defense is. The really good Celtics teams from previous seasons thrived on solid interior rotations, stuffing penetration, and forcing other teams take long jumpers. This meant that we didn't have to doperforuble, trap, and engage in other funky business that left you ultimately exposed to easy baskets. Right now it's an easy basket galore against the Celtics. We're decidedly mediocre when it comes to opponent FG% and assists -- two things we've been good in preventing.

So no, it's not time for Doc to go. It's time for the personnel at hand to either perform, or brace for a trade.
[/quote]

Is "doperforuble" a technical basketball term.  If it isn't, it should be.
[/quote]

Thibodeau made Doc. Without him he's a run of the mill average NBA Coach. And he's too close to his players to begin with.
Title: Re: Time for Doc to go.
Post by: Boston Garden Leprechaun on December 22, 2012, 11:48:00 AM
get someone who can. doc looks like a good ole boy coach. scared to make changes. scared to criticize vets. scared to bench vets. smashing square pegs into round holes over and over and over with his suicidal offensive schemes and styles. if we would pass the ball like other teams we would not even need rondo. i never thought i would say this but not only am i up for trading bass, lee, green etc. i am even up for trading rondo now. gasol? look, we are blowing this thing up in two years or shorter anyways. let's give it one last go. we really have nothing to lose. once PP and KG are gone rondo will be what? 30? are we really going to start from scratch with him at that age?

That's exciting. But your imaginary picture of Doc just isn't true.

the good ole boy part?
The part where he's an idiot who is afraid of change, and is trying to fit square pegs in round holes.

1. We've changed our defense radically this season. We double-team and trap. We had to, because our big men can't really stop anyone.

2. Doc is not ignoring an obvious solution for the situation. We have a center "hole", and a bunch of "pegs" that don't fit there very well. Wilcox doesn't defend, Collins does (sort of), but doesn't do anything else, and Melo is clearly not ready yet. If Darko was still on the roster, he'd be starting right now (and we'd probably be playing better). But he isn't, and the solution for the current situation is finding someone who can rebound, block shots, and rotate on defense off the scrap heap (good luck, 29 other teams are looking for this guy too).

1.  We don't blitz the pick abecause our big men can't stop anyone.  We do it because our permieter players, particularly Rondo, are terrible at fighting over picks and staying with their man.

2.  If our big men were really so worthless, we'd be double teaming like mad in the post and that's not really happening.  The defensive problems are in our rotations, which includes most everybody on the team and not just big men.

3.  Doc put Sully in the starting lineup.  He exiled Darko to the bench after one bad showing and never even bothered to give Collins a chance to have a bad showing.  He then just kept shuffling the same players back and forth until the season was nearly 14th over.

Mike
1. Yes, and we don't blitz right now. We used to blitz a lot in previous seasons.

2. The problem with big men is that not that they give up points one-on-one. It's that they fail to rotate, giving up wide open layups. You don't fix that by double-teaming.

3. We didn't exile Darko after one bad showing. We just didn't play Darko (or Collins) at all. And Sullinger started because of our commitment to play Garnett at C, where he was excellent last year (I still think he's not best fit to play PF anymore, but when the personnel sucks so badly, you gotta try all combinations possible).

And by the time it became clear that the current lineup isn't performing, Darko wasn't here anymore.

sorry, but assists do not= moving the ball like i have seen other teams do for wide open looks. we get assists. big deal. it does not mean we move it around like others. I'm talking about the 3 and 4 passes in arow to get to an open guy. making the extra passes. That is the point.
Title: Re: Time for Doc to go.
Post by: Boston Garden Leprechaun on December 22, 2012, 11:54:14 AM

The offense is clearly not the issue here. The inability to play any form of interior defense is. The really good Celtics teams from previous seasons thrived on solid interior rotations, stuffing penetration, and forcing other teams take long jumpers. This meant that we didn't have to doperforuble, trap, and engage in other funky business that left you ultimately exposed to easy baskets. Right now it's an easy basket galore against the Celtics. We're decidedly mediocre when it comes to opponent FG% and assists -- two things we've been good in preventing.

So no, it's not time for Doc to go. It's time for the personnel at hand to either perform, or brace for a trade.

Is "doperforuble" a technical basketball term.  If it isn't, it should be.
[/quote]

Thibodeau made Doc. Without him he's a run of the mill average NBA Coach. And he's too close to his players to begin with.
[/quote]

and you know what happens when you get too close? They will not listen to you like they used to. or they get mad. or both. No way to tell if doc is even telling them what to do offensively anyway after that aberration of a coaching performance last night.
Title: Re: Time for Doc to go.
Post by: Roy H. on December 22, 2012, 11:57:34 AM
I'd caution those calling for a new coach to not expect an immediate change for the better with a new coach.

I see Doc's coaching style as very similar to Terry Francona's.  A lot of folks said he got too close to his team, too, and had become too lax.  Those were pretty legit criticisms, but bringing in a disciplinarian didn't work any better.
Title: Re: Time for Doc to go.
Post by: LB3533 on December 22, 2012, 12:24:14 PM
Doc seems to know how to coach the team better when he has less to work with.

When Doc is given more pieces he doesn't quite know what to do.

Title: Re: Time for Doc to go.
Post by: Edgar on December 22, 2012, 12:49:54 PM
I'd caution those calling for a new coach to not expect an immediate change for the better with a new coach.

I see Doc's coaching style as very similar to Terry Francona's.  A lot of folks said he got too close to his team, too, and had become too lax.  Those were pretty legit criticisms, but bringing in a disciplinarian didn't work any better.

This is true
I think Doc can continue working if the rotation is shortened and get some D help Bradley being 50% and a starting big being another 50%.
Doc already showed he can work with 8 players, even with 6.

After that Doc with 8-9 players can easily have a .666 team at least and not the mirage theyre now.

If the team stays with 11 players at the same level it will be VERY difficult almost Imposible to doc to manage for whatever reason it is.
Title: Re: Time for Doc to go.
Post by: TripleOT on December 22, 2012, 01:06:06 PM
Out of the 30 NBA head coaches, a grand total of four have won NBA titles. To me, Doc  has been an excellent coach who understands his team and what it takes during a long, grueling regular season to get that team ready for the playoffs.

If you don't think Doc Rivers is a good coach, here's one question for you: Has there ever been a year in the KG era that he didn't get every drop of effort of his team in the playoffs? 

When he had all his weapons, he knew how to fire them and won.  When he didn't, he used whatever he could to get the team in position to win.  That's all you can ask of your head coach. 

I consider Doc a top level coach, with two of the other title winners, Pop and Carlisle, and Tom Thibs.  I feel that the Cs brass rightly feels the same way, and Doc will be here for as long as he wants to be here. 
Title: Re: Time for Doc to go.
Post by: Edgar on December 22, 2012, 01:13:15 PM
When he had all his weapons, he knew how to fire them and won. 

When he didn't, he used whatever he could to get the team in position to win.  That's all you can ask of your head coach. 

For the first parragraph I will say yes

For the second I am not sold

i am still worried why people consider this team still limited, on paper he have a super roster. If we had a Center on prime of course we should be better, but we should be better now too.

Very low % of people considered this team a .500 team 26 games ago.
Title: Re: Time for Doc to go.
Post by: Lightskinsmurf on December 22, 2012, 01:26:29 PM
Doc seems to know how to coach the team better when he has less to work with.

When Doc is given more pieces he doesn't quite know what to do.

Yup, overrated coach.
Title: Re: Time for Doc to go.
Post by: xmuscularghandix on December 22, 2012, 01:27:39 PM
I'd rather get rid of Rondo.
Title: Re: Time for Doc to go.
Post by: scaryjerry on December 22, 2012, 01:53:12 PM
Out of the 30 NBA head coaches, a grand total of four have won NBA titles. To me, Doc  has been an excellent coach who understands his team and what it takes during a long, grueling regular season to get that team ready for the playoffs.

If you don't think Doc Rivers is a good coach, here's one question for you: Has there ever been a year in the KG era that he didn't get every drop of effort of his team in the playoffs?

We won that title in spite of doc and almost got beat in round 1 and 2 against far inferior teams.....ive never seen a more up and down playoff team since kg has been here and we haven't been to the finals since thibodeau left.
Title: Re: Time for Doc to go.
Post by: The4Time2Doctor0 on December 22, 2012, 02:13:49 PM
I wouldn't say fire him, but he is not as intelligent as he is portrayed. he is a players coach, who can draw up a few good plays, but he has shown that if his plan doesn't work he does not adjust very fast. This has been true his entire coaching life.
Title: Re: Time for Doc to go.
Post by: 33_Larry Legend_33 on December 22, 2012, 02:36:09 PM
I think Doc is losing a bit of his touch with this team.  All these veterans - and that's fine - but someone has to have the stones to get in their faces.  Look, this team is not good enough to coast - they're not athletic enough, and lack any inside presence.

I also think Milicic was handled TERRIBLY - and for that I blame Doc.  We could use him right now.  It's like Doc has no consistency in how he coaches, yet he asks for the very thing from his players that he can't give.

If Doc were let go tomorrow I could care less.  Yeah, he's a nice guy, but he's not some magician with a magic touch.  He AND Danny both admit this team will coast - but they might just coast themselves into a lottery pick if they don't pick it up.

My opinion of this team right now is they're OVERpaid, and they're on the decline.  They remind me of the early 90's Celtics that just couldn't get it done...though this team is less talented. 

But I don't even find them that much fun to even watch anymore...  This team is poorly constructed...  And that's on both Doc and Danny.
Title: Re: Time for Doc to go.
Post by: Who on December 22, 2012, 03:52:18 PM
But I don't even find them that much fun to even watch anymore...
It's very frustrating to see the team hammered on the boards night after night. Worst rebounding team in the league.

I think they'll be more fun to watch when Bradley returns and the defense kicks on another gear.
Title: Re: Time for Doc to go.
Post by: LB3533 on December 22, 2012, 04:04:52 PM
When he had all his weapons, he knew how to fire them and won. 

When he didn't, he used whatever he could to get the team in position to win.  That's all you can ask of your head coach. 

For the first parragraph I will say yes

For the second I am not sold

i am still worried why people consider this team still limited, on paper he have a super roster. If we had a Center on prime of course we should be better, but we should be better now too.

Very low % of people considered this team a .500 team 26 games ago.

I love our '08 championship team, but we almost lost to a .500 Cavs team and to the Hawks. We dominated the regular season. Look up the C's point differential margin for that regular season...it is almost historic.

But then the playoffs happen and we didn't even know how to handle the 42 win Cavs. Doc didn't know how to play Eddie House.

I feel like when your teams' back is against the wall due to injuries are due to insufficient talent, Doc is your man as coach.

But if you give Doc too many pieces that he doesn't quite know how to utilize, we're in trouble.

Title: Re: Time for Doc to go.
Post by: LooseCannon on December 22, 2012, 05:30:39 PM
How many other current NBA coaches would you trade Doc for, if you could swap right now?

Title: Re: Time for Doc to go.
Post by: LooseCannon on December 22, 2012, 05:31:00 PM
But if you give Doc too many pieces that he doesn't quite know how to utilize, we're in trouble.

Obviously, the team has been too healthy.
Title: Re: Time for Doc to go.
Post by: Boston Garden Leprechaun on December 22, 2012, 06:26:55 PM
Out of the 30 NBA head coaches, a grand total of four have won NBA titles. To me, Doc  has been an excellent coach who understands his team and what it takes during a long, grueling regular season to get that team ready for the playoffs.

If you don't think Doc Rivers is a good coach, here's one question for you: Has there ever been a year in the KG era that he didn't get every drop of effort of his team in the playoffs?

We won that title in spite of doc and almost got beat in round 1 and 2 against far inferior teams.....ive never seen a more up and down playoff team since kg has been here and we haven't been to the finals since thibodeau left.

yep. sure is looking that way now.
Title: Re: Time for Doc to go.
Post by: Meadowlark_Scal on December 22, 2012, 08:39:57 PM
I logged in to post this today....Honestly.....how can you defend this coach anymore.....No rebounds...( rebounds ARE defense!) but he said time and time again he doesn't like them....always benches rebounders, never plays young centers, always goes small, defense schemes flat out suck.....how many times are we going to get beat by some almost-scrub that just stands on the block or in the paint, rebounds his teams shots, and lays them up uncontested...that type of breakdowns causes terrible infighting...and breaks the team spirit.... You see a shot go up, never anyone waiting in the paint for the rebound, and the whole team turns and runs before the ball even hits the rim....TERRRIBLE coaching philosephy...the WORST. MeadowLark SCAL could have coached this team to a championship with the teams he had...3x.....!!!
Title: Re: Time for Doc to go.
Post by: Meadowlark_Scal on December 22, 2012, 08:43:44 PM
And then compare and contrast what Popovich has done with pretty much the same teams.....how many championships, and look at the team he has now even still, on the way up....developing draft picks, running plays for "coming-along" guys...splitter ( our melo) yup.....THAT....is coaching......You'd think Doc at least would copy him.....live and learn......!!!
Title: Re: Time for Doc to go.
Post by: kozlodoev on December 22, 2012, 08:46:21 PM
"Pretty much the same team"? I'm sorry, we didn't have Duncan for 10+ seasons in his prime.
Title: Re: Time for Doc to go.
Post by: Meadowlark_Scal on December 22, 2012, 09:11:58 PM
we had garnett for how long now..?
Title: Re: Time for Doc to go.
Post by: Meadowlark_Scal on December 22, 2012, 09:24:46 PM
so since 2007 then.....so....still pop outshined doc...i know you like to discard all the surrounding FACTS.....makes it easier...huh..?
Title: Re: Time for Doc to go.
Post by: LooseCannon on December 22, 2012, 10:23:44 PM
splitter ( our melo)

Ian Mahinmi (who played 6 games as a 21-year-old rookie) is much better comp for how Popovich might develop Melo than Splitter (who played 60 games as a 26-year-old rookie).
Title: Re: Time for Doc to go.
Post by: LarBrd33 on December 22, 2012, 10:27:42 PM
Doc's not the problem. 

We overachieved at the end of last season.  We shouldn't have made it out of the 2nd round. 

Our roster isn't significantly improved this year.  A coach change wouldn't make us any better.
Title: Re: Time for Doc to go.
Post by: bfrombleacher on December 22, 2012, 10:48:38 PM
Obviously I wish Doc could be as good as Pop.

But Pop is a GOAT coach.

Doc is probably one of the best after Pop right now.

I don't agree with some of the things Doc does but don't think he should go. Just as I don't agree with some of the things Rondo does. I think Doc and this team will come together by playoffs.
Title: Re: Time for Doc to go.
Post by: tenn_smoothie on December 23, 2012, 02:08:53 AM
"We sat around pre-season thinking we had this great, deep team. Well its deep with a bunch of random pieces with no cohesion. Oh, and our biggest problem? KG is our ONLY big man with an ounce of talent. Wilcox is a good back up, but its not enough."

i believe this is the main problem - this team was thrown together with very little plan or design by Danny Boy. plus, two of his biggest acquisitions the past couple of years are overrated players - Green & Lee. Jason Terry's style doesn't mesh with this team. most of all, we are getting killed inside. the team has not been the same since the Perkins trade. sorry to keep bringing this up but it's true.

Danny has continued to water down the defense by adding mediocre defensive players and it has finally caught up with this team. they are painful to watch right now.
Title: Re: Time for Doc to go.
Post by: Meadowlark_Scal on December 23, 2012, 07:07:34 AM
what is a goat coach..? It would be good to bring melo in to try him, as  he seems to be doing very well in the D league. We brought steamer in, but in the beginning he was doing great, his shot was a very high %, which could spread the floor, he rebounded well, blocked a lot of shots, then...what happened....DOC benched him and kept his minutes low, pulled him every time he made a mistake....that is called KILLING someones confidence, maybe so he could then say "see, he doesn't have it" We have seen doc do this to many guys, pulls them when they get it working, why...maybe he is an oddball or a large ego.....he only wants the guys he thinks highly of to do good, and at the expense of the team, pulls the others till they lose their mojo.....it DOES happen in all aspects of life..this type of behavior...!
Title: Re: Time for Doc to go.
Post by: Sec22 on December 23, 2012, 09:15:44 AM
so since 2007 then.....so....still pop outshined doc...i know you like to discard all the surrounding FACTS.....makes it easier...huh..?

This thread is a little ridiculous, but while we're at it I'm wondering what FACTS you might be talking about. Doc has won more games since 2007 than Pop, and his teams have 2 Finals appearances and one ECF, while Pop's teams can't get out of the second round.

Title: Re: Time for Doc to go.
Post by: Kuberski1 on December 23, 2012, 09:24:31 AM
No....it's not time for Doc to go.   He goes, KG goes, Paul not far behind....just who do you think you'd replace him with?  Doc is not the problem...
Title: Re: Time for Doc to go.
Post by: SHAQATTACK on December 23, 2012, 10:16:21 AM
No....it's not time for Doc to go.   He goes, KG goes, Paul not far behind....just who do you think you'd replace him with?  Doc is not the problem...

Agreed, we need Doc , to recruit, coddle the stars and keep keep Rondo happy.  I also think Doc is patient with the young guys like AB and FAB .

There is more UPSIDE to keeping Doc for sure than getting a new coach.  Losing Tonm T . was a huge blow to the Celtics....more than people think.
Title: Re: Time for Doc to go.
Post by: Boston Garden Leprechaun on December 23, 2012, 11:22:54 AM
Doc's not the problem. 

We overachieved at the end of last season.  We shouldn't have made it out of the 2nd round. 

Our roster isn't significantly improved this year.  A coach change wouldn't make us any better.

yet you provide no rebuttal to the facts presented in this thread. I think most are not ****ing about results but the process of which he uses. Definitely flawed. As well as his style.
Title: Re: Time for Doc to go.
Post by: TripleOT on December 23, 2012, 01:31:42 PM
Didn't we have this same conversation last year at this time?

Title: Re: Time for Doc to go.
Post by: manl_lui on December 23, 2012, 01:46:18 PM
Didn't we have this same conversation last year at this time?

yes, yes we did
Title: Re: Time for Doc to go.
Post by: nostar on December 24, 2012, 01:13:57 PM
This thread is a little ridiculous, but while we're at it I'm wondering what FACTS you might be talking about. Doc has won more games since 2007 than Pop, and his teams have 2 Finals appearances and one ECF, while Pop's teams can't get out of the second round.

This is the best post I read in this absolutely ridiculous thread, TP for you.

Doc is a great coach. End of discussion.

http://probasketballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/04/19/doc-rivers-coach-players-most-want-to-play-for-stan-van-gundy-not-so-much/
Title: Re: Time for Doc to go.
Post by: MBunge on December 24, 2012, 01:44:50 PM
This thread is a little ridiculous, but while we're at it I'm wondering what FACTS you might be talking about. Doc has won more games since 2007 than Pop, and his teams have 2 Finals appearances and one ECF, while Pop's teams can't get out of the second round.

This is the best post I read in this absolutely ridiculous thread, TP for you.

Doc is a great coach. End of discussion.

http://probasketballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/04/19/doc-rivers-coach-players-most-want-to-play-for-stan-van-gundy-not-so-much/

Was KC Jones a great coach?  Is Vinny Del Negro?  How about Charles Woodson?  Mike D'Antoni?

When you look at his record, Doc is a good coach.  He's not a great one.

Mike
Title: Re: Time for Doc to go.
Post by: MBunge on December 24, 2012, 01:52:58 PM
Jason Terry's style doesn't mesh with this team.

And that would be one of the things that prevents Doc from being a great coach.  When you're handed a player like Jason Terry or Nate Robinson, you need to get the most out of them, not confine them within a role that doesn't fit their talents.

Mike
Title: Re: Time for Doc to go.
Post by: fairweatherfan on December 24, 2012, 01:57:58 PM
Didn't we have this same conversation last year at this time?

yes, yes we did

Last year at this time we were anxiously awaiting the XMas season opener with the Knicks  ;)

But yeah, I get your point.  Between this, the "LeBron's not getting called for fouls!" thread, DeMarcus Cousins having attitude problems, and a silly Kevin Love trade, we're pretty much rehashing the greatest hits of 2012.

...and I wouldn't have it any other way.  Merry Xmas Celticsblog!
Title: Re: Time for Doc to go.
Post by: Q_FBE on December 24, 2012, 02:07:44 PM
I cannot believe that I wasted Thirty Three minutes of my precious life reading this thread. Merry Christmas and tomorrow will be the start of the real Celtics Season.
Title: Re: Time for Doc to go.
Post by: nostar on December 24, 2012, 02:27:15 PM
Was KC Jones a great coach?  Is Vinny Del Negro?  How about Charles Woodson?  Mike D'Antoni?

When you look at his record, Doc is a good coach.  He's not a great one.

Mike

Yes to KC Jones, no to the other 2...and I think Charles Woodson plays in the NFL. I'm not saying Doc is the best coach of all time. I'm saying he's top 3 in the NBA right now and easily the best coach for this team. Just out of curiosity who would you guys replace him with? The only person I'd consider from a "better than Doc" standpoint would be Jerry Sloan. I wouldn't consider making the move until the post-Pierce era but I have always really admired Sloan.
Title: Re: Time for Doc to go.
Post by: MBunge on December 24, 2012, 03:39:41 PM
Just out of curiosity who would you guys replace him with?

The problem with replacing Doc is that the main reason for it would be to shake up the team culture, something Pierce and Rondo would probably fight like mad and thereby prevent it from being successful.

Mike
Title: Re: Time for Doc to go.
Post by: FatjohnReturns on January 22, 2013, 10:06:58 PM
Listening to Tommy in the postgame brought up two great points.


1)We should have tried playing a bigger player on Irving maybe Lee.

2) The coaching staff hasnt developed a goto scorer to help relieve the load of Pierce and Kg.

Tommy is spot on with this. Doc is a nonfactor for this team at the moment. If Irving is torching Rondo then switch it up.

Doc is not getting the job done. Time for Doc to go.
Title: Re: Time for Doc to go.
Post by: SHAQATTACK on January 22, 2013, 10:11:35 PM
Just out of curiosity who would you guys replace him with?

The problem with replacing Doc is that the main reason for it would be to shake up the team culture, something Pierce and Rondo would probably fight like mad and thereby prevent it from being successful.

Mike

I like the Coach for the NO Hornets . He'll be great one day.
Title: Re: Time for Doc to go.
Post by: Boston Garden Leprechaun on January 22, 2013, 10:12:45 PM
Listening to Tommy in the postgame brought up two great points.


1)We should have tried playing a bigger player on Irving maybe Lee.

2) The coaching staff hasnt developed a goto scorer to help relieve the load of Pierce and Kg.

Tommy is spot on with this. Doc is a nonfactor for this team at the moment. If Irving is torching Rondo then switch it up.

Doc is not getting the job done. Time for Doc to go.

doc is a terrible offensive coach. he does not make them attack enough and we have no post up game. pathetic. I'll bet you a bazillion dollars behind the scenes tommy LOATHES doc rivers for his terrible coaching style on offense.
Title: Re: Time for Doc to go.
Post by: Mazingerz on January 22, 2013, 10:14:07 PM
Is Larry Bird available?
Title: Re: Time for Doc to go.
Post by: Onslaught on January 22, 2013, 10:15:50 PM
Is Larry Bird available?
He only coaches teams that can win. And I can't see him taking orders from Danny.
Title: Re: Time for Doc to go.
Post by: MBunge on January 23, 2013, 10:44:46 AM
I don't know if Doc needs to go, but to go off on your team like he did and then MAKE ABSOLUTELY NO CHANGES THE NEXT GAME is inexcusable.  No changes to the starting line up.  No real changes to the rotation.  Nothing.  There's just no defense for that.

And what was the deal with Courtney Lee only getting 14 minutes last night?  Is that because he dared to actually show some aggression offensively?

Mike
Title: Re: Time for Doc to go.
Post by: kozlodoev on January 23, 2013, 10:47:03 AM
I don't know if Doc needs to go, but to go off on your team like he did and then MAKE ABSOLUTELY NO CHANGES THE NEXT GAME is inexcusable.  No changes to the starting line up.  No real changes to the rotation.  Nothing.  There's just no defense for that.

And what was the deal with Courtney Lee only getting 14 minutes last night?  Is that because he dared to actually show some aggression offensively?

Mike
Because the only cure for an underperforming team is making changes, right?
Title: Re: Time for Doc to go.
Post by: Birdman on January 23, 2013, 10:47:36 AM
Is Larry Bird available?
As a player or coach?? Because I take him right now as either one!!
Title: Re: Time for Doc to go.
Post by: pearljammer10 on January 23, 2013, 10:53:53 AM
Listening to Tommy in the postgame brought up two great points.


1)We should have tried playing a bigger player on Irving maybe Lee.

2) The coaching staff hasnt developed a goto scorer to help relieve the load of Pierce and Kg.

Tommy is spot on with this. Doc is a nonfactor for this team at the moment. If Irving is torching Rondo then switch it up.

Doc is not getting the job done. Time for Doc to go.

doc is a terrible offensive coach. he does not make them attack enough and we have no post up game. pathetic. I'll bet you a bazillion dollars behind the scenes tommy LOATHES doc rivers for his terrible coaching style on offense.

I was just about to say the same thing. I feel that Tommy does not see eye to eye with what Rivers is doing especially on the offensive end. I love Doc. He is a great role model/mentor and I think he really gains guys respect and can really control the locker room. However, his offensive coaching is pretty terrible.
Title: Re: Time for Doc to go.
Post by: slamtheking on January 23, 2013, 10:56:09 AM
Listening to Tommy in the postgame brought up two great points.


1)We should have tried playing a bigger player on Irving maybe Lee.

2) The coaching staff hasnt developed a goto scorer to help relieve the load of Pierce and Kg.

Tommy is spot on with this. Doc is a nonfactor for this team at the moment. If Irving is torching Rondo then switch it up.

Doc is not getting the job done. Time for Doc to go.

doc is a terrible offensive coach. he does not make them attack enough and we have no post up game. pathetic. I'll bet you a bazillion dollars behind the scenes tommy LOATHES doc rivers for his terrible coaching style on offense.
Doc's never been a good coach.  His main skill seems to be placating veterans on the roster. 

I don't see him going anywhere but I strongly feel a decent coach would be able to adjust to the skills of his players to get the most out of his roster.  Doc doesn't do that.

I don't think Tommy loathes Doc but he's definitely from a different coaching philosophy (one with proven results from the C's of the mid-70's) that contrasts with how Doc coaches. 
Title: Re: Time for Doc to go.
Post by: Birdman on January 23, 2013, 10:57:50 AM
Who going to replace him?? Phil jackson?? I say we keep him cause look at his past record with the Celtics. he knows this team better than anyone. He just dont have a legit big man!
Title: Re: Time for Doc to go.
Post by: MBunge on January 23, 2013, 11:01:03 AM
I don't know if Doc needs to go, but to go off on your team like he did and then MAKE ABSOLUTELY NO CHANGES THE NEXT GAME is inexcusable.  No changes to the starting line up.  No real changes to the rotation.  Nothing.  There's just no defense for that.

And what was the deal with Courtney Lee only getting 14 minutes last night?  Is that because he dared to actually show some aggression offensively?

Mike
Because the only cure for an underperforming team is making changes, right?

When you threaten to get rid of guys but then make NO CHANGES to either how they're being used or their playing time...what are you accomplishing?  How is that going to fix anything?  What was the point of that little rant?  Who was it directed at?  Because NOTHING Doc said had ANY affect on how he handled the team in the very next game.  Why should any of the players take Doc seriously?  How do any of them even know if they're the problem or what they're supposed to do about it?

Oh, wait.  We're talking about the Holy Doc, the most perfectest coach in the history of all sports.  My bad.

Mike
Title: Re: Time for Doc to go.
Post by: MBunge on January 23, 2013, 11:04:14 AM
Who going to replace him??

Jeff Van Gundy, and he's not the only legitimate candidate.

Doc has one championship to his credit and he did that with a great team.  He hasn't won 2 or 3 or 9.  He didn't win big in Orlando and he didn't win big in Boston before KG and Ray showed up.  Doc's proven to be a good coach, but his reputation for coaching genius has been greatly exaggerated.

Mike
Title: Re: Time for Doc to go.
Post by: kozlodoev on January 23, 2013, 11:05:26 AM
I don't know if Doc needs to go, but to go off on your team like he did and then MAKE ABSOLUTELY NO CHANGES THE NEXT GAME is inexcusable.  No changes to the starting line up.  No real changes to the rotation.  Nothing.  There's just no defense for that.

And what was the deal with Courtney Lee only getting 14 minutes last night?  Is that because he dared to actually show some aggression offensively?

Mike
Because the only cure for an underperforming team is making changes, right?

When you threaten to get rid of guys but then make NO CHANGES to either how they're being used or their playing time...what are you accomplishing?  How is that going to fix anything?  What was the point of that little rant?  Who was it directed at?  Because NOTHING Doc said had ANY affect on how he handled the team in the very next game.  Why should any of the players take Doc seriously?  How do any of them even know if they're the problem or what they're supposed to do about it?

Oh, wait.  We're talking about the Holy Doc, the most perfectest coach in the history of all sports.  My bad.

Mike
You threaten to get rid of guys because your roster stinks. Shuffling one underperforming player in for another will not change anything, and the players who actually do perform cannot play multiple positions at the same time.

A trade is imminent at this point, as soon as we find someone to take our junk, since it's quite evident that the pieces that we have are unable or unwilling to play their roles the way they should.
Title: Re: Time for Doc to go.
Post by: Donoghus on January 23, 2013, 11:07:43 AM
Most of this lies with the players, not the coach.

Lots of underachieving on the floor right now.
Title: Re: Time for Doc to go.
Post by: Boston Garden Leprechaun on January 23, 2013, 11:11:50 AM
Who going to replace him?? Phil jackson?? I say we keep him cause look at his past record with the Celtics. he knows this team better than anyone. He just dont have a legit big man!

rofl. like he would use a big man if he did have one. he does not use two dribble drivers correctly in green and the blur.
Title: Re: Time for Doc to go.
Post by: Boston Garden Leprechaun on January 23, 2013, 11:12:58 AM
Most of this lies with the players, not the coach.

Lots of underachieving on the floor right now.

disagree with point #1 and i agree with point #2. both are to blame.
Title: Re: Time for Doc to go.
Post by: MBunge on January 23, 2013, 11:18:48 AM
You threaten to get rid of guys because your roster stinks. Shuffling one underperforming player in for another will not change anything, and the players who actually do perform cannot play multiple positions at the same time.

A trade is imminent at this point, as soon as we find someone to take our junk, since it's quite evident that the pieces that we have are unable or unwilling to play their roles the way they should.

Last night...

Jeff Green, +7, 20 minutes.
Courtney Lee, +1, 14 minutes.
Jason Terry, +4, 20 minutes.
Kevin Garnett, -1, 31 minutes.
Jared Sullinger -4, 26 minutes.
Avery Bradley, -5, 26 minutes.
Brandon Bass, -7, 28 minutes.
Paul Pierce, -8, 37 minutes.
Rajon Rondo, -10, 39 minutes.
Chris Wilcox - DNP.
Leandro Barbosa - DNP.
Jason Collins - DNP.

KG is on firm limits and Sully had foul trouble, but tell me who from that list stinks and is underperforming and how that relates to their playing time.  And what exactly is Doc Rivers getting paid MILLIONS OF DOLLARS a year to do if he can't win unless he's got the bestest players who ever lived on his team?

Some of the folks around here would slit the throats of their own children if Doc told them to, because he can't ever be wrong about anything...can he?

Mike
Title: Re: Time for Doc to go.
Post by: Chris on January 23, 2013, 11:19:02 AM
Most of this lies with the players, not the coach.

Lots of underachieving on the floor right now.

I agree.  That's not to say Doc doesn't deserve some blame.  He is the coach, and this team is falling apart on his watch.  But ultimately, the players need to focus.

The thing is though, even if Doc did deserve to be fired, based on the current short leash that we see in sports in general, that completely goes against the C's overall philosophy.

They have built this team on patience.  Danny has consistently been incredibly patient and methodical with the way he builds the team, and Doc has followed suit by being very patient and methodical in his coaching.  They let things play out.  They wait for the right opportunity to present itself, and are prepared to act, but they rarely jump the gun.

Firing Doc at this point would be jumping the gun.  Not only would it be just creating a martyr in Rivers, but it would also be cutting off your nose to spite your face. 

Rivers has his issues.  He is not a perfect coach.  But be careful what you wish for.  When you look at the whole package, and take into account his recruiting and interpersonal skills, along with his organization and general respect around the league, you will find that he would not be easy to replace. 

This team needs a culture change.  But I think the first place to look will be the roster, and go from there.
Title: Re: Time for Doc to go.
Post by: Celtics18 on January 23, 2013, 11:23:36 AM
You threaten to get rid of guys because your roster stinks. Shuffling one underperforming player in for another will not change anything, and the players who actually do perform cannot play multiple positions at the same time.

A trade is imminent at this point, as soon as we find someone to take our junk, since it's quite evident that the pieces that we have are unable or unwilling to play their roles the way they should.

Last night...

Jeff Green, +7, 20 minutes.
Courtney Lee, +1, 14 minutes.
Jason Terry, +4, 20 minutes.
Kevin Garnett, -1, 31 minutes.
Jared Sullinger -4, 26 minutes.
Avery Bradley, -5, 26 minutes.
Brandon Bass, -7, 28 minutes.
Paul Pierce, -8, 37 minutes.
Rajon Rondo, -10, 39 minutes.
Chris Wilcox - DNP.
Leandro Barbosa - DNP.
Jason Collins - DNP.

KG is on firm limits and Sully had foul trouble, but tell me who from that list stinks and is underperforming and how that relates to their playing time.  And what exactly is Doc Rivers getting paid MILLIONS OF DOLLARS a year to do if he can't win unless he's got the bestest players who ever lived on his team?

Some of the folks around here would slit the throats of their own children if Doc told them to, because he can't ever be wrong about anything...can he?

Mike

I have no idea what your listing of the minutes for the Celtics players in last night's game is supposed to prove.  Who should have played more?  Who should have played less?  I'm curious.
Title: Re: Time for Doc to go.
Post by: Donoghus on January 23, 2013, 11:30:34 AM
Most of this lies with the players, not the coach.

Lots of underachieving on the floor right now.

I agree.  That's not to say Doc doesn't deserve some blame.  He is the coach, and this team is falling apart on his watch.  But ultimately, the players need to focus.

The thing is though, even if Doc did deserve to be fired, based on the current short leash that we see in sports in general, that completely goes against the C's overall philosophy.

They have built this team on patience.  Danny has consistently been incredibly patient and methodical with the way he builds the team, and Doc has followed suit by being very patient and methodical in his coaching.  They let things play out.  They wait for the right opportunity to present itself, and are prepared to act, but they rarely jump the gun.

Firing Doc at this point would be jumping the gun.  Not only would it be just creating a martyr in Rivers, but it would also be cutting off your nose to spite your face. 

Rivers has his issues.  He is not a perfect coach.  But be careful what you wish for.  When you look at the whole package, and take into account his recruiting and interpersonal skills, along with his organization and general respect around the league, you will find that he would not be easy to replace. 

This team needs a culture change.  But I think the first place to look will be the roster, and go from there.

I think this nails a lot of it.
Title: Re: Time for Doc to go.
Post by: kozlodoev on January 23, 2013, 11:31:22 AM
You threaten to get rid of guys because your roster stinks. Shuffling one underperforming player in for another will not change anything, and the players who actually do perform cannot play multiple positions at the same time.

A trade is imminent at this point, as soon as we find someone to take our junk, since it's quite evident that the pieces that we have are unable or unwilling to play their roles the way they should.

Last night...

Jeff Green, +7, 20 minutes.
Courtney Lee, +1, 14 minutes.
Jason Terry, +4, 20 minutes.
Kevin Garnett, -1, 31 minutes.
Jared Sullinger -4, 26 minutes.
Avery Bradley, -5, 26 minutes.
Brandon Bass, -7, 28 minutes.
Paul Pierce, -8, 37 minutes.
Rajon Rondo, -10, 39 minutes.
Chris Wilcox - DNP.
Leandro Barbosa - DNP.
Jason Collins - DNP.

KG is on firm limits and Sully had foul trouble, but tell me who from that list stinks and is underperforming and how that relates to their playing time.  And what exactly is Doc Rivers getting paid MILLIONS OF DOLLARS a year to do if he can't win unless he's got the bestest players who ever lived on his team?

Some of the folks around here would slit the throats of their own children if Doc told them to, because he can't ever be wrong about anything...can he?
Yes, and you forgot to mention that Collins is horrible and Wilcox is injured, so Bass has, technically, no alternative because Sullinger already plays as much as he can before fouling out.

So a large amount of your roster is locked into their time slots pretty much regardless of how they play -- although you seem to patently ignore this is a possibility.

So of the remaining players, Terry is underperforming to the point to which he's turned into Leandro Barbosa #2. Do you think we brought him in to give us next to nothing in 20 minutes? You think that swapping him for Barbosa #1 will do us any good?

So what is Doc supposed to do then? Bench Bass and Terry because they are underperforming, and field Barbosa and Collins who are inferior players and will give you inferior production even at their best? Any other brilliant ideas?
Title: Re: Time for Doc to go.
Post by: PhoSita on January 23, 2013, 11:45:30 AM

This team needs a culture change.  But I think the first place to look will be the roster, and go from there.

I think this nails a lot of it.

Absolutely.

Here's the problem.  Team culture is generally determined by the players at the top of the roster. 

It's hard for me to believe we're going to really change the culture on the team without drastically altering the core of the team.

At the very least I think guys we expected to play a very large role like Terry and Green absolutely have to go.  The problem is neither of those guys has particularly movable contracts.  To trade them we'll have to move them just for the sake of moving them, basically.
Title: Re: Time for Doc to go.
Post by: MBunge on January 23, 2013, 12:13:01 PM
You threaten to get rid of guys because your roster stinks. Shuffling one underperforming player in for another will not change anything, and the players who actually do perform cannot play multiple positions at the same time.

A trade is imminent at this point, as soon as we find someone to take our junk, since it's quite evident that the pieces that we have are unable or unwilling to play their roles the way they should.

Last night...

Jeff Green, +7, 20 minutes.
Courtney Lee, +1, 14 minutes.
Jason Terry, +4, 20 minutes.
Kevin Garnett, -1, 31 minutes.
Jared Sullinger -4, 26 minutes.
Avery Bradley, -5, 26 minutes.
Brandon Bass, -7, 28 minutes.
Paul Pierce, -8, 37 minutes.
Rajon Rondo, -10, 39 minutes.
Chris Wilcox - DNP.
Leandro Barbosa - DNP.
Jason Collins - DNP.

KG is on firm limits and Sully had foul trouble, but tell me who from that list stinks and is underperforming and how that relates to their playing time.  And what exactly is Doc Rivers getting paid MILLIONS OF DOLLARS a year to do if he can't win unless he's got the bestest players who ever lived on his team?

Some of the folks around here would slit the throats of their own children if Doc told them to, because he can't ever be wrong about anything...can he?
Yes, and you forgot to mention that Collins is horrible and Wilcox is injured, so Bass has, technically, no alternative because Sullinger already plays as much as he can before fouling out.

So a large amount of your roster is locked into their time slots pretty much regardless of how they play -- although you seem to patently ignore this is a possibility.

So of the remaining players, Terry is underperforming to the point to which he's turned into Leandro Barbosa #2. Do you think we brought him in to give us next to nothing in 20 minutes? You think that swapping him for Barbosa #1 will do us any good?

So what is Doc supposed to do then? Bench Bass and Terry because they are underperforming, and field Barbosa and Collins who are inferior players and will give you inferior production even at their best? Any other brilliant ideas?

If Collins is horrible, than why did the Holy Doc have him in as a starter?  And what kind of a moron continues to play someone, no matter how bad they actually perform, because of how good they're supposed to be?

Barbosa has only gotten to play more than 15 minutes in 4 games this season.  In those games, he went 3-5 for 9 points, 3-6 for 8 points, 5-11 for 17 points and 6-8 for 16 points.  That's at least comparable production to what Terry has been giving us.  Would he consistently be better than Terry?  I don't know, but Barbosa is a veteran player and Terry has just looked terrible at times, so I can't see any possible reason why you wouldn't at least try Barbosa out and see what happens.

Oh, wait.  There is a reason.  If you think Doc Rivers is God Himself and is incapable of ever making a mistake.

And Doc has played Green before at the 4 and loves playing small in general, so there is an option to simply playing Bass no matter how much he sucks.

I'm not sure why I bother responding to you because it's clear that Doc could take a dump on your face and you'd just ask for another load.

Mike
Title: Re: Time for Doc to go.
Post by: eugen on January 23, 2013, 12:25:13 PM
I do not think is time to get rid of Doc. Cs has to make a rebuild of the team...
Title: Re: Time for Doc to go.
Post by: Q_FBE on January 23, 2013, 12:36:11 PM
Nope...... It might be time for Danny, Doc, and all of the players to go and for Wyc to sell the team to Gary Hansen so the Celtics become the Sonics and I can Coach, GM and Belichick the new Sonics team.  ;D
Title: Re: Time for Doc to go.
Post by: Chris on January 23, 2013, 12:41:37 PM

This team needs a culture change.  But I think the first place to look will be the roster, and go from there.

I think this nails a lot of it.

Absolutely.

Here's the problem.  Team culture is generally determined by the players at the top of the roster. 

It's hard for me to believe we're going to really change the culture on the team without drastically altering the core of the team.

At the very least I think guys we expected to play a very large role like Terry and Green absolutely have to go.  The problem is neither of those guys has particularly movable contracts.  To trade them we'll have to move them just for the sake of moving them, basically.

You are absolutely right.  The problem is at the top of the roster.  Although you may also be right that the lesser guys might be the ones who take the fall, just because its easier to move guys like that.

But I really think this team will not get back on track, until they sort out the clash of styles and leadership at the top of the roster. 
Title: Re: Time for Doc to go.
Post by: kozlodoev on January 23, 2013, 01:19:30 PM
If Collins is horrible, than why did the Holy Doc have him in as a starter?  And what kind of a moron continues to play someone, no matter how bad they actually perform, because of how good they're supposed to be?
So, you want Doc to try anything to win, and then you'll blast him for trying everything. Yes, that surely makes a lot of sense.

And the "kind of moron continues to play someone" is the type of moron who doesn't have anyone else on the roster - a fact that, once again, you patently refuse to recognize.

Would he consistently be better than Terry?  I don't know
It's ok. The rest of us do.

Oh, wait.  There is a reason.  If you think Doc Rivers is God Himself and is incapable of ever making a mistake.
No, the reason is that you seem to have no idea what you're talking about. But that's ok, too.

And Doc has played Green before at the 4 and loves playing small in general, so there is an option to simply playing Bass no matter how much he sucks.
And then Green had his chest cut open, missed a full year, and lost, I don't know, 10+ lbs in the process? I'm amazed he can play the backup 3 in the NBA for 25 minutes as is, and surely don't think it's a good idea to put him out there to have players 30-40 lbs heavier bounce off of him.

And that's before we toss into the equation the fact that he wasn't a particularly good full-time PF even before the surgery.

I'm not sure why I bother responding to you because it's clear that Doc could take a dump on your face and you'd just ask for another load.
I'm not sure why you bother responding to anyone, but that's just me.
Title: Re: Time for Doc to go.
Post by: kgainez on January 24, 2013, 12:35:51 AM
You threaten to get rid of guys because your roster stinks. Shuffling one underperforming player in for another will not change anything, and the players who actually do perform cannot play multiple positions at the same time.

A trade is imminent at this point, as soon as we find someone to take our junk, since it's quite evident that the pieces that we have are unable or unwilling to play their roles the way they should.

Last night...

Jeff Green, +7, 20 minutes.
Courtney Lee, +1, 14 minutes.
Jason Terry, +4, 20 minutes.
Kevin Garnett, -1, 31 minutes.
Jared Sullinger -4, 26 minutes.
Avery Bradley, -5, 26 minutes.
Brandon Bass, -7, 28 minutes.
Paul Pierce, -8, 37 minutes.
Rajon Rondo, -10, 39 minutes.
Chris Wilcox - DNP.
Leandro Barbosa - DNP.
Jason Collins - DNP.

KG is on firm limits and Sully had foul trouble, but tell me who from that list stinks and is underperforming and how that relates to their playing time.  And what exactly is Doc Rivers getting paid MILLIONS OF DOLLARS a year to do if he can't win unless he's got the bestest players who ever lived on his team?

Some of the folks around here would slit the throats of their own children if Doc told them to, because he can't ever be wrong about anything...can he?

Mike

Hey, Mike...they don't want to hear this as it's too obvious LOL

Let me go on record to say, I don't think Doc should be fired. He just has the pieces but doesn't know **** to do with them.

And someone said Terry is sucking. And that's true. But that's not to say the line up with Jet/Lee/Green/Sully/KG are either our first or second best line up. I understand it's against the rules to play this line up to start...but this line up DOES things because the floor is truly spaced.

You know JET's confidence never wanders. He can hit the 3. Lee can hit the 3 and cut to the basket. Green can hit the 3 and post up. Sully has a jumper (that many do not respect) and is a BEAST on the boards. KG is your stretch 5....not many other line ups have this. oh...and it's unselfish and it's not fancy.

It just makes too much sense for Doc to play this more.
Title: Re: Time for Doc to go.
Post by: xmuscularghandix on January 24, 2013, 12:37:41 AM
The team has good players but it doesn't have any balls.
Title: Re: Time for Doc to go.
Post by: Change on January 24, 2013, 10:49:41 PM
I'm starting to believe Doc is as good as his assistant coaches. All he is a personality manager in the locker room. The brains are the assistant coaches.

In hindsight, Ainge should have hired Tom Thibodeau, and let Doc go home like he was intending a few seasons ago. Now we are stuck with him.
Title: Re: Time for Doc to go.
Post by: Kane3387 on January 24, 2013, 10:59:14 PM
Doc can't make shots for guys...

The Celtics played HARD tonight. The effort was consistently there. We just couldn't make a basket.

Boston is primarily a jump shooting team and no one could hit outside of Rondo and Pierce.

Our defense looked really good for most of the game. If we put forth that effort and intensity consistently then we will start winning games. Eventually these guys will start making shots.
Title: Re: Time for Doc to go.
Post by: FatjohnReturns on January 24, 2013, 11:01:05 PM
I'm starting to believe Doc is as good as his assistant coaches. All he is a personality manager in the locker room. The brains are the assistant coaches.

In hindsight, Ainge should have hired Tom Thibodeau, and let Doc go home like he was intending a few seasons ago. Now we are stuck with him.

Before the season started experts were predicting us to finish second in the East. This team is underachieving bigtime. Doc isn getting the job done.
Title: Re: Time for Doc to go.
Post by: kozlodoev on January 24, 2013, 11:02:04 PM
I'm starting to believe Doc is as good as his assistant coaches. All he is a personality manager in the locker room. The brains are the assistant coaches.

In hindsight, Ainge should have hired Tom Thibodeau, and let Doc go home like he was intending a few seasons ago. Now we are stuck with him.
I'm sure our players were throwing the ball in the stands, and passing open layups for ill-advised alley-oops under strict instructions from the bench.
Title: Re: Time for Doc to go.
Post by: kozlodoev on January 24, 2013, 11:03:09 PM
I'm starting to believe Doc is as good as his assistant coaches. All he is a personality manager in the locker room. The brains are the assistant coaches.

In hindsight, Ainge should have hired Tom Thibodeau, and let Doc go home like he was intending a few seasons ago. Now we are stuck with him.

Before the season started experts were predicting us to finish second in the East. This team is underachieving bigtime. Doc isn getting the job done.
Right, it has nothing to do that half of the roster is playing like crap. It's Doc's fault, naturally. The players are spectacular.
Title: Re: Time for Doc to go.
Post by: Boston Garden Leprechaun on January 24, 2013, 11:08:01 PM
While doc is a terrible offensive coach i will DEFEND doc tonight!!!!!

I heard him from the bench tell these guys to ATTACK! after that, guess what? NOBODY DID IT! NOBODY DID WHAT DOC TOLD THEM. I am not blaming doc tonight. nope. I blame the players tonight.
Title: Re: Time for Doc to go.
Post by: Change on January 24, 2013, 11:14:11 PM
I'm starting to believe Doc is as good as his assistant coaches. All he is a personality manager in the locker room. The brains are the assistant coaches.

In hindsight, Ainge should have hired Tom Thibodeau, and let Doc go home like he was intending a few seasons ago. Now we are stuck with him.
I'm sure our players were throwing the ball in the stands, and passing open layups for ill-advised alley-oops under strict instructions from the bench.

Don't single out few plays. You know very well this team has underachieved big time. What is a team with 2 all stars (one budding superstar) and quality role players doing being below .500? Something gotta give.

Title: Re: Time for Doc to go.
Post by: FatjohnReturns on January 24, 2013, 11:21:08 PM
I'm starting to believe Doc is as good as his assistant coaches. All he is a personality manager in the locker room. The brains are the assistant coaches.

In hindsight, Ainge should have hired Tom Thibodeau, and let Doc go home like he was intending a few seasons ago. Now we are stuck with him.

Before the season started experts were predicting us to finish second in the East. This team is underachieving bigtime. Doc isn getting the job done.
Right, it has nothing to do that half of the roster is playing like crap. It's Doc's fault, naturally. The players are spectacular.

You have to put players in a posistion to succeed. Doc isnt getting it done. The offense is too overcomplicated.

Jason Terrys confidence is completely gone and so is Barbosas. Leonardo was playing great to start the season and Doc has completely negated this.

What about posting up Jeff Green on mutiple possessions or running the offense inside/out through Sully. Tommy has been advocating for this almost nightly. The talent of this team has been marginalized by bad coaching. 

Title: Re: Time for Doc to go.
Post by: tgreanier on January 24, 2013, 11:41:02 PM
I'm starting to believe Doc is as good as his assistant coaches. All he is a personality manager in the locker room. The brains are the assistant coaches.

In hindsight, Ainge should have hired Tom Thibodeau, and let Doc go home like he was intending a few seasons ago. Now we are stuck with him.

Before the season started experts were predicting us to finish second in the East. This team is underachieving bigtime. Doc isn getting the job done.
Right, it has nothing to do that half of the roster is playing like crap. It's Doc's fault, naturally. The players are spectacular.

You have to put players in a posistion to succeed. Doc isnt getting it done. The offense is too overcomplicated.

Jason Terrys confidence is completely gone and so is Barbosas. Leonardo was playing great to start the season and Doc has completely negated this.

What about posting up Jeff Green on mutiple possessions or running the offense inside/out through Sully. Tommy has been advocating for this almost nightly. The talent of this team has been marginalized by bad coaching.

I have to admit, while I think Doc is a great coach and I trust him, I think the bulk of this Celtics squad has lost their faith in him. Doc is saying the right things, planning the right things and he knows this game inside and out - but a lot of the Celtics are just ignoring it. I don't get it, because players usually love Doc.

I could be wrong of course, it is easy to pick a target when thinking about where the problems lie, but if this team does still believe in Doc, I have no explanation for the play over the last several games.
Title: Re: Time for Doc to go.
Post by: triboy16f on January 24, 2013, 11:57:23 PM
Tonight you can blame Pierce more

But you can blame doc even more for letting him shoot as many he did in the 4th. Why isn't there plays for Jeff Green??

Title: Re: Time for Doc to go.
Post by: Edgar on January 25, 2013, 01:15:55 AM
Tonight you can blame Pierce more

But you can blame doc even more for letting him shoot as many he did in the 4th. Why isn't there plays for Jeff Green??

In general he should be thinking on more plays for Green and sully unlesss...theyre not what he is going to have on playoffs  ???  ???
Title: Re: Time for Doc to go.
Post by: Boston Garden Leprechaun on March 26, 2013, 07:41:45 AM
I'm starting to believe Doc is as good as his assistant coaches. All he is a personality manager in the locker room. The brains are the assistant coaches.

In hindsight, Ainge should have hired Tom Thibodeau, and let Doc go home like he was intending a few seasons ago. Now we are stuck with him.

Before the season started experts were predicting us to finish second in the East. This team is underachieving bigtime. Doc isn getting the job done.
Right, it has nothing to do that half of the roster is playing like crap. It's Doc's fault, naturally. The players are spectacular.

You have to put players in a posistion to succeed. Doc isnt getting it done. The offense is too overcomplicated.

Jason Terrys confidence is completely gone and so is Barbosas. Leonardo was playing great to start the season and Doc has completely negated this.

What about posting up Jeff Green on mutiple possessions or running the offense inside/out through Sully. Tommy has been advocating for this almost nightly. The talent of this team has been marginalized by bad coaching.




hmmmn, ya don't say? doc has his good nights(few and far between) but his offensive coaching is not good overall and terrible at times in how he uses his talent. nor is he consistent. he loves hammering a square peg into a round hole far too often.

Now again if they are not listening then players need to go. But I do not think it is just the players all this time. too large a sample size now. we will see what happens if KG and PP retire after this year. We will see if DA runs him off.
Title: Re: Time for Doc to go.
Post by: Snakehead on March 26, 2013, 08:12:36 AM
I'm starting to believe Doc is as good as his assistant coaches. All he is a personality manager in the locker room. The brains are the assistant coaches.

In hindsight, Ainge should have hired Tom Thibodeau, and let Doc go home like he was intending a few seasons ago. Now we are stuck with him.
I'm sure our players were throwing the ball in the stands, and passing open layups for ill-advised alley-oops under strict instructions from the bench.

Don't single out few plays. You know very well this team has underachieved big time. What is a team with 2 all stars (one budding superstar) and quality role players doing being below .500? Something gotta give.

One budding superstar?  What?  Who?  Rondo?

The lineup has been decimated.  All the "We don't need Rondo" talk, well here is what happens.  Sure we can put together a stretch, but it won't last.  And we have zero depth in the front court to begin with, never mind when KG is injured.

But yeah this is all Doc's fault.  You nailed it.

Seriously, who is this "budding superstar"?
Title: Re: Time for Doc to go.
Post by: ScottHow on March 26, 2013, 11:18:22 AM
I don't understand how anyone can look at our roster, look at our injuries....and point to Doc.
Title: Re: Time for Doc to go.
Post by: Fafnir on March 26, 2013, 05:29:24 PM
No reason to bump a 3 month dead thread, start a new one on the topic if you'd like.