CelticsStrong
Celtics Basketball => Celtics Talk => Topic started by: rocknrollforyoursoul on December 18, 2012, 05:02:47 PM
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I was just reading a Greg Payne story about Bass on ESPN Boston, and this sentence jumped out at me:
While there could be multiple reasons for Bass' woes – a common shooting slump, for example – what might be more problematic is him joining the Celtics' key support players in not appearing comfortable in Boston's offensive system.
The key part is the last phrase: "not appearing comfortable in Boston's offensive system." Is there something about this system that stifles the talents of our guys? Too many baseline screens? Too much Rondo pounding the ball at the top of the key?
I was hoping that Ray's departure would spell the end of the endless screens. And that the Cs would run more. And to be honest, there have been times before when I thought, "Why does it seem like players who were quite talented offensively before they came to Boston become so much less of a force after joining the Cs?" I get the team concept, with ball movement and unselfish play, but the system also seems to just drain guys of their offensive spark. I'm thinking specifically of guys like Marbury, Robinson, Lee, even Terry to some extent. I realize that Marbury was at the end of his career, but not Robinson or Lee, and Terry's still good enough (in my opinion) to be a scary threat off the bench.
What do you guys think?
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I think they should run more simple plays, simple pick and roll plays. 80% of the NBA teams are doing it with good results, they should attack the basket more often, and dont settle for jump shots. Pick and Roll, Pick and Pop. The offensive sets they're running is way too complex for 10 new guys to pick up, plus it takes so much time to execute.
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Is there a particular reason Bass would be less comfortable this year than last? With him, it's either a confidence or attentiveness issue. Terry's coming along, and while he's scoring a bit less than usual he has his highest TS% since he was in his 20s. I think that Lee's been figuring things out a little better lately as well although I wonder how many of his minutes will go to Bradley in a few weeks.
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This team doesn't move the ball as much as they need too. This might actually be one of the teams that benefits from a D'antoni offense. Keep the defense though lol.
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Yes
It has always been a problem under Doc. This is not a new situation.
Go back and watch the offense Jim Obrien ran when he had a young Pierce and Antoine. Doc is clueless.
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I've been thinking about this for a while now. It really does seem like Doc's system tends to handcuff players. For a system that involves ball movement the ball seems to get stuck in Rondo, Pierce, and KG's hands quite often.
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I've been thinking about this for a while now. It really does seem like Doc's system tends to handcuff players. For a system that involves ball movement the ball seems to get stuck in Rondo, Pierce, and KG's hands quite often.
I agree! 100% Simple plays = Easy Baskets + Better Defense = WINS.
They shouldnt come off 8 screens in 24 seconds just to get 2 points.
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I've been thinking about this for a while now. It really does seem like Doc's system tends to handcuff players. For a system that involves ball movement the ball seems to get stuck in Rondo, Pierce, and KG's hands quite often.
Great word choice. The system seems to not play to the players' strengths, instead forcing them into being something they aren't.
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Yup, our players are being handcuffed all the way to having one of the top FG%s in the league every season ::)
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Yup, our players are being handcuffed all the way to having one of the top FG%s in the league every season ::)
Shooting percentage isn't the end all, be all of offense. Number of shots, turnovers, offensive production in clutch situations and not having long scoring droughts also matter. Point differential is also not just about defending. If you play great defense but can't score yourself, you make every game tougher than it needs to be. And there's also "blowout-ability". Being able to get 15 to 20 points up and stay there against bad teams is a valuable offensive benefit in being able to rest players.
But perhaps I am blaspheming against the Holy Doc.
Mike
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No low post game, no inside out. Shaq might have been OLD but he forced defensive movement in and out. Good ball swing when that happens means good shots. Our offense is currently run sparingly then the weave. Solve the problem.
rondo, bradley, green, sully, kg starting lineup
sully and green on the box, kg mid range game and everyone (sully?) can run on that squad
subs of pierce, terry, bass etc is a good 1/2 court team who can run when the opportunity shows itself
neither unit would have the best players but both units would be GOOD, pressure an opposing team with that for a full game and we will wear people down
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Yup, our players are being handcuffed all the way to having one of the top FG%s in the league every season ::)
Shooting percentage isn't the end all, be all of offense. Number of shots, turnovers, offensive production in clutch situations and not having long scoring droughts also matter. Point differential is also not just about defending. If you play great defense but can't score yourself, you make every game tougher than it needs to be. And there's also "blowout-ability". Being able to get 15 to 20 points up and stay there against bad teams is a valuable offensive benefit in being able to rest players.
But perhaps I am blaspheming against the Holy Doc.
Mike
Great points, Mike. I've often thought, while watching a Celtics game in recent seasons, "Yeah, it's great that Boston holds opponents to like 88 points and 40% shooting, and it's great that Boston shoots 48% (or something like that), but Boston's scoring only 90 points a game, so bottom line, every game's a nailbiter, at best." We're scoring more points this season, which is nice, but I still think there's potential to be deadly on offense, but it's not happening. Not enough running or ball movement.
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We are long overdue for an some tweaking, or an outright overhaul of the system. Question remains, Can Doc put his ego aside and try something different? Pop did it with the Spurs, and Doc needs to do the same thing here. Opening up the offense will go a long way. Give players not named Rondo, Pierce, and Garnett opportunity to find their game rather than forcing them into box i.e Jason Terry. With all the firepower on this squad, Celtics must eclipse the century point mark every game. Anything short of that is a bad night.
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With all the firepower on this squad, Celtics must eclipse the century point mark every game. Anything short of that is a bad night.
Yeah, when I consider that we have Terry, Barbosa, Green, and Wilcox—in addition to the Big Three–I'm amazed when the points don't flow more freely.
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I think some of this is because of Rondo. Guys seems to think that they should always be able to convert a pass from Rondo. And if not it should go back to him so he can figure something else out. I'm a lot less irritated with the shots Rondo passes up for assists than I am with extra passes that aren't made by his teammates.
I think having the ball swing back and forth through Rondo so much hurts ball movement and makes it easier to defend.
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We are long overdue for an some tweaking, or an outright overhaul of the system. Question remains, Can Doc put his ego aside and try something different? Pop did it with the Spurs, and Doc needs to do the same thing here. Opening up the offense will go a long way. Give players not named Rondo, Pierce, and Garnett opportunity to find their game rather than forcing them into box i.e Jason Terry. With all the firepower on this squad, Celtics must eclipse the century point mark every game. Anything short of that is a bad night.
Doc is not Pop.
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Yes. Ball sits for too long in one guys hands. Advance the ball, attack the rim, take SMART three pointers... don't slowly dribble so that Rondo can run one play in 14 seconds, or pass it to KG or Paul just to attack a single matchup. Push it up the floor, get it inside, see what develops, cut to the rim, kick it back out off double teams... BE SMART BASKETBALL PLAYERS.
The best teams don't have the ball in one man's hands for the entire game, regardless of wether or not that man passes for assists or shoots from isolation sets... it's just not good when the entire defense isn't being forced to move their feet.
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Yes. Ball sits for too long in one guys hands. Advance the ball, attack the rim, take SMART three pointers... don't slowly dribble so that Rondo can run one play in 14 seconds, or pass it to KG or Paul just to attack a single matchup. Push it up the floor, get it inside, see what develops, cut to the rim, kick it back out off double teams... BE SMART BASKETBALL PLAYERS.
The best teams don't have the ball in one man's hands for the entire game, regardless of wether or not that man passes for assists or shoots from isolation sets... it's just not good when the entire defense isn't being forced to move their feet.
agree tp.
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Yup, our players are being handcuffed all the way to having one of the top FG%s in the league every season ::)
Shooting percentage isn't the end all, be all of offense. Number of shots, turnovers, offensive production in clutch situations and not having long scoring droughts also matter. Point differential is also not just about defending. If you play great defense but can't score yourself, you make every game tougher than it needs to be. And there's also "blowout-ability". Being able to get 15 to 20 points up and stay there against bad teams is a valuable offensive benefit in being able to rest players.
But perhaps I am blaspheming against the Holy Doc.
Mike
I don't think it's the team has big problems with long scoring droughts, no clutch scoring or too many turnovers. We don't need to change our offense to fix problems from previous seasons.
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Yes
It has always been a problem under Doc. This is not a new situation.
Go back and watch the offense Jim Obrien ran when he had a young Pierce and Antoine. Doc is clueless.
Haha. *That* was a juggernaut offense.
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It is a bit concerning that over the past few years a lot of players were better offensive basketball players before they came to Boston.
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It is a bit concerning that over the past few years a lot of players were better offensive basketball players before they came to Boston.
And many players improved when they came here.
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Yes. Ball sits for too long in one guys hands. Advance the ball, attack the rim, take SMART three pointers... don't slowly dribble so that Rondo can run one play in 14 seconds, or pass it to KG or Paul just to attack a single matchup. Push it up the floor, get it inside, see what develops, cut to the rim, kick it back out off double teams... BE SMART BASKETBALL PLAYERS.
The best teams don't have the ball in one man's hands for the entire game, regardless of wether or not that man passes for assists or shoots from isolation sets... it's just not good when the entire defense isn't being forced to move their feet.
That and doc's substitution patterns this year are awful
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It is a bit concerning that over the past few years a lot of players were better offensive basketball players before they came to Boston.
And many players improved when they came here.
such as? you might actually have an example but I'm struggling to come up with one player that played better offense under Doc than the team they played for previously.
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In a word, yes.
Way too much firepower on this team for it to be a middling team in terms of offensive efficiency. The terrible offensive rebounding is a part of the "offensive system," so that's not an adequate excuse.
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It is a bit concerning that over the past few years a lot of players were better offensive basketball players before they came to Boston.
And many players improved when they came here.
such as? you might actually have an example but I'm struggling to come up with one player that played better offense under Doc than the team they played for previously.
I'd start with players like Shaq, Krstic and Green (the year he was traded).
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In a word, yes.
Way too much firepower on this team for it to be a middling team in terms of offensive efficiency. The terrible offensive rebounding is a part of the "offensive system," so that's not an adequate excuse.
First of all we have a decent offense but not "way too much firepower to be a middling team". Secondly, the team scores pretty efficiently and takes decent care of the ball. The offense will only be so good with our OReb "system". Declaring that it's not an adequate excuse doesn't change the reality of the situation.
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My biggest problem with the C's offense is that they are still running Ray's plays way too often, but Terry and Lee are not Ray Allen. Even with Ray, the offense stagnated the last couple years as they waited for him to come off picks, but with these new guys, it not only stagnates, but when they get open, they can't finish like Ray could.
It is still early enough that I am going to give them more time. But they really need to do more to adjust to the talent they have.
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It is a bit concerning that over the past few years a lot of players were better offensive basketball players before they came to Boston.
And many players improved when they came here.
such as? you might actually have an example but I'm struggling to come up with one player that played better offense under Doc than the team they played for previously.
I'd start with players like Shaq
Shaq with the C's was a thing of beauty in the short time he was here. Shaq stays healthy, we win the chip that year.
Part of it was just Shaq's pure size and elite skill (while diminished) around the basket. Part of it was playing off of KG and Pierce, and part of it was Rondo's passing.
Point it, this team needs a big who can score in the post. A big you can go to, even when the team is offensively struggling, and count on for a bucket, is huge. Rondo needs a guy who can pick and roll, not just pick and pop. Currently, we just don't have anyone who excels in the "roll" part of a pick and roll. Wilcox is about the closest.
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I will keep repeating until someone hears me. The offense is stagnant because the players are. If movement occurs, the offense will pick up. People "pay" to watch, they "get paid" to move! Someone please explain it to the players. Rondo getting down the floor and then dribbling for 15 seconds while he waits for the offensive to set up is not working. The only thing setting up is the defense, causing turnovers and bad shots.
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I just heard this on ESPN radio and it sums it up good.
Celtics play only one player taller the 6'8, but don't play with speed that spreads out the defense.
Small and slow.
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I just heard this on ESPN radio and it sums it up good.
Celtics play only one player taller the 6'8, but don't play with speed that spreads out the defense.
Small and slow.
Wdleehi, I am, uh, surprised that someone on the blog actually listens to ESPN. ;)
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I just heard this on ESPN radio and it sums it up good.
Celtics play only one player taller the 6'8, but don't play with speed that spreads out the defense.
Small and slow.
Wdleehi, I am, uh, surprised that someone on the blog actually listens to ESPN. ;)
Better the Redskins radio at the moment.
No, I actually enjoy the national ESPN radio lineup for the most part.
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I just heard this on ESPN radio and it sums it up good.
Celtics play only one player taller the 6'8, but don't play with speed that spreads out the defense.
Small and slow.
The worst of both worlds. Doc doesn't want to go big (I have a feeling Darko would STILL be riding the pine if he was here), but he doesn't seem to be pushing guys to run, either. We're not taking advantage of our strengths, and we're offering up our weaknesses for opponents to exploit.
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I just heard this on ESPN radio and it sums it up good.
Celtics play only one player taller the 6'8, but don't play with speed that spreads out the defense.
Small and slow.
The worst of both worlds. Doc doesn't want to go big (I have a feeling Darko would STILL be riding the pine if he was here), but he doesn't seem to be pushing guys to run, either. We're not taking advantage of our strengths, and we're offering up our weaknesses for opponents to exploit.
I don't blame Doc.
The other "bigs" are not that talented.
And the smalls are not that fast or the great outside shooters.
This is still more of a personal issue that needs to be addressed in the near future.
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I just heard this on ESPN radio and it sums it up good.
Celtics play only one player taller the 6'8, but don't play with speed that spreads out the defense.
Small and slow.
The worst of both worlds. Doc doesn't want to go big (I have a feeling Darko would STILL be riding the pine if he was here), but he doesn't seem to be pushing guys to run, either. We're not taking advantage of our strengths, and we're offering up our weaknesses for opponents to exploit.
I think this is a direct result of the lack of defense and rebounding. They tried running earlier in the season, but were getting killed on the boards, because the guys underneath were not able to get the rebounds themselves, when the other guys were leaking out. So, to remedy that, they have stopped leaking guys out, and committed the whole team to rebounding, and it has taken away the fast break.
Unfortunately, there is not a very good solution to this, other than better defensive execution in general. If they can get guys rotating properly, then they will be in position to rebound, and still allow guys to leak out. But they are a long way off from that.
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I just heard this on ESPN radio and it sums it up good.
Celtics play only one player taller the 6'8, but don't play with speed that spreads out the defense.
Small and slow.
Sums it up completely.