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Celtics Basketball => Celtics Talk => Topic started by: PhoSita on December 17, 2012, 10:28:28 PM

Title: What Does This Season Say About Rondo?
Post by: PhoSita on December 17, 2012, 10:28:28 PM
By a number of metrics, Rondo is having his best season yet.  That makes sense, because Rondo is just about to enter his prime.  Barring injury, it's safe to assume that Rondo will play at this level for another few years, if not longer.

If that's the case, though, how do we reconcile that with how poorly the team has been playing?  As clear as it is that Rondo is having his best (statistical) season yet, it's also clear the the Celtics are at best a somewhat above average team.  Perhaps twenty three games is a small sample, but it isn't THAT small. 

The Celtics are neither elite offensively nor elite defensively.  Aside from offensive rebounding, they aren't terrible at anything, but they don't have a strong identity in any particular area.  That's translated to a record that's barely above .500, and no sustained stretches of excellence (they haven't won more than three games in a row yet this season).

Rondo is arguably one of the best 10-15 players in the league, and over the past few years he's really vindicated himself against the people who have doubted his ability to rise up and carry the team in key moments, particular in the playoffs.  The Celtics have a key roster-building advantage over a number of teams because they have a player like Rondo to build around.

But in light of how the team has played so far this year, even as Rondo has been so productive, I can't help but question the idea that putting a decent, talented supporting cast around Rondo will necessarily result in a 45-50 win season and a solid chance at being competitive in the playoffs.  The roster around Rondo this year is either far less talented than it appears to be on paper, terribly mismatched, or severely underperforming.  If either of the latter two options is the case, then despite Rondo's performance, he has failed to elevate the players around him to a high level of play. 

In this respect his season differs from seasons that great passing point guards have had in the past, when guys like Jason Kidd and Steve Nash have turned teams mostly comprised of specialists and role players into highly efficient units (either on defense or offense, if not both).  Heck, Jason Kidd seems to be having an almost inexplicable positive effect on the Knicks this season even at age 40.  So far there isn't much evidence that Rondo's prolific passing is making his teammates better.

So does that mean Rondo should be traded?  I'm not suggesting that, although I'm sure considering it much more than I would have at the start of the season.  For one thing, Rondo's value will never be higher than it is now.  He still has a couple years left on his contract, and once he hits his next deal, he'll go from being a major bargain (at $11 million per year), to a fairly paid max or near-max player ($15 million per year +++).  On the other hand, unless there's a superstar or great young player available for trade, it would be hard to get any kind of fair value for Rondo unless the goal of a trade was simply to bottom out and play the lottery, which is obviously a very unappealing prospect.
Title: Re: What Does This Season Say About Rondo?
Post by: BballTim on December 17, 2012, 10:34:25 PM


  Maybe we should trade him for Dwight Howard, he's got Kobe on his team and they're in worse shape than we are.
Title: Re: What Does This Season Say About Rondo?
Post by: PhoSita on December 17, 2012, 10:41:46 PM


  Maybe we should trade him for Dwight Howard, he's got Kobe on his team and they're in worse shape than we are.

I think the Lakers are a resounding, neon-bright example of the truism that it is impossible to succeed in this league without a legitimate point guard.  As mediocre as Derek Fisher was statistically, he still had an intangible, steadying quality, and he worked in that triangle system.  Without the triangle, and without a legitimate point guard to run the offense, the Lakers are horribly inconsistent.  On top of that, though Dwight is putting up career average numbers, he's obviously not 100% defensively, and Kobe is exerting too much energy on offense to put in full effort defensively.  Add that to the fact that D'Antoni is the coach, and you've got a team that's pretty mediocre defensively.

Despite that, the Lakers are still top 10 in both offensive efficiency and defensive efficiency -- something the Celtics cannot boast -- and they have more wide-margin wins than the Celtics do.  There's evidence to suggest that as bad as the Lakers have been, they should improve a lot as the season goes on -- and that doesn't even take into account that Steve Nash should be coming back at some point, and if he's healthy he could majorly improve their offense, though he won't help their defense.

To put it a bit more simply, right now the Lakers are a very poorly constructed team with no depth.  Can the same be said of the Celtics?  Bottom line, I don't think there's a fair comparison to be drawn between the Celtics and the Lakers.  The Celtics don't have any of the excuses that the Lakers have.
Title: Re: What Does This Season Say About Rondo?
Post by: ianboyextreme on December 17, 2012, 11:06:51 PM
I though the trade Rondo threads were over. Like, really over. Like never coming back. Like, even if we lose they are as dead as a doorknob. We are not losing games because of Rajon Rondo. Period. We are losing games because our defense has been bad.
Title: Re: What Does This Season Say About Rondo?
Post by: RJ87 on December 17, 2012, 11:10:52 PM
I don't think its fair to judge Rondo against how the team is performing. The cold facts: after Rondo, are 3 most important players (Paul, KG, and JET) are 35+. Paul at 35 years old is more suited to be a 2nd or 3rd option on a championship caliber team, not the primary scoring weapon. KG is still very effective, but only if he's logging 28-30 mins a game.

Now when you start to look at the youth on our roster (Green, Bass, Lee, Sullinger, Wilcox), they're not stars, they're just role players. IMO, Rondo has made guys like Bass and Wilcox look fantastic - especially Bass last season. This season, Bass, Lee, and Green just haven't been locked in 100%. Rondo can pass those guys the ball in their spots thousands of times, but is it his fault that Lee & Bass brick open jumper after wide open jumper? Is it his fault that Green passes the ball back out instead of attacking the rim?

As I see it, Rondo is holding up his end of the bargain this season. There are just some things this team needs (a younger primary scorer, another big man to protect the paint - especially with KG out, Kendrick Perkin's passion/toughness transplanted into Jeff Green) that Rondo can't provide.
Title: Re: What Does This Season Say About Rondo?
Post by: ScottHow on December 17, 2012, 11:37:57 PM
I think it says he's having a career year, when everyone else is declining. No one can do it alone.
Title: Re: What Does This Season Say About Rondo?
Post by: PhoSita on December 17, 2012, 11:49:16 PM
I though the trade Rondo threads were over. Like, really over. Like never coming back. Like, even if we lose they are as dead as a doorknob. We are not losing games because of Rajon Rondo. Period. We are losing games because our defense has been bad.

Not totally disagreeing with you -- nor, I hope you'll notice, am I saying WE NEED TO TRADE RONDO NOWWW -- but to play devil's advocate, our offense is not elite, either.  In fact, our offense is worse than our defense.  Despite having a great passing point guard, we have a decidedly average offense. 

Hard to argue that Rondo is making up for that by playing elite defense, either, though he is getting a fair amount of steals.
Title: Re: What Does This Season Say About Rondo?
Post by: PhoSita on December 17, 2012, 11:52:25 PM
I don't think its fair to judge Rondo against how the team is performing. The cold facts: after Rondo, are 3 most important players (Paul, KG, and JET) are 35+. Paul at 35 years old is more suited to be a 2nd or 3rd option on a championship caliber team, not the primary scoring weapon. KG is still very effective, but only if he's logging 28-30 mins a game.

Now when you start to look at the youth on our roster (Green, Bass, Lee, Sullinger, Wilcox), they're not stars, they're just role players. IMO, Rondo has made guys like Bass and Wilcox look fantastic - especially Bass last season. This season, Bass, Lee, and Green just haven't been locked in 100%. Rondo can pass those guys the ball in their spots thousands of times, but is it his fault that Lee & Bass brick open jumper after wide open jumper? Is it his fault that Green passes the ball back out instead of attacking the rim?

As I see it, Rondo is holding up his end of the bargain this season. There are just some things this team needs (a younger primary scorer, another big man to protect the paint - especially with KG out, Kendrick Perkin's passion/toughness transplanted into Jeff Green) that Rondo can't provide.

While I completely agree with you that Pierce, KG, and Terry are each too old to be the #1 offensive option (they're all good enough to be the #2 or #3, though), even at their age they are still better offensive options than the vast majority of young, in their prime scorers in the league.

If you're looking for offensive players significantly better than Pierce, KG, or Terry, you're starting to talk about young guys who are stars and who will get max contracts.  How realistic is it to expect the Celtics to get a player (or players) like that to put next to Rondo?
Title: Re: What Does This Season Say About Rondo?
Post by: RJ87 on December 18, 2012, 12:24:53 AM
I don't think its fair to judge Rondo against how the team is performing. The cold facts: after Rondo, are 3 most important players (Paul, KG, and JET) are 35+. Paul at 35 years old is more suited to be a 2nd or 3rd option on a championship caliber team, not the primary scoring weapon. KG is still very effective, but only if he's logging 28-30 mins a game.

Now when you start to look at the youth on our roster (Green, Bass, Lee, Sullinger, Wilcox), they're not stars, they're just role players. IMO, Rondo has made guys like Bass and Wilcox look fantastic - especially Bass last season. This season, Bass, Lee, and Green just haven't been locked in 100%. Rondo can pass those guys the ball in their spots thousands of times, but is it his fault that Lee & Bass brick open jumper after wide open jumper? Is it his fault that Green passes the ball back out instead of attacking the rim?

As I see it, Rondo is holding up his end of the bargain this season. There are just some things this team needs (a younger primary scorer, another big man to protect the paint - especially with KG out, Kendrick Perkin's passion/toughness transplanted into Jeff Green) that Rondo can't provide.

While I completely agree with you that Pierce, KG, and Terry are each too old to be the #1 offensive option (they're all good enough to be the #2 or #3, though), even at their age they are still better offensive options than the vast majority of young, in their prime scorers in the league.

If you're looking for offensive players significantly better than Pierce, KG, or Terry, you're starting to talk about young guys who are stars and who will get max contracts.  How realistic is it to expect the Celtics to get a player (or players) like that to put next to Rondo?

And this where the truth comes to light - if we can't get another near max caliber guy, can the Celtics be legitimate title contenders instead of just another middle of the pack playoff team? Look, I'd love to buy into the fantasy that Rondo + the 35 and over trio + a cast role players can get the C's an 18 banner, but I don't think this team is underperforming as severly as some think - it was always an miniscule shot that we'd be the dominant team of years past. I thought after this offseason that we would be an entertaining team to watch, we'd make the playoffs as a top 4 seed, but wouldn't have enough to beat Miami. In the 2012/2013 version of the NBA, you need another high impact player to truly compete for a title.
Title: Re: What Does This Season Say About Rondo?
Post by: PhoSita on December 18, 2012, 01:30:12 AM
I don't think its fair to judge Rondo against how the team is performing. The cold facts: after Rondo, are 3 most important players (Paul, KG, and JET) are 35+. Paul at 35 years old is more suited to be a 2nd or 3rd option on a championship caliber team, not the primary scoring weapon. KG is still very effective, but only if he's logging 28-30 mins a game.

Now when you start to look at the youth on our roster (Green, Bass, Lee, Sullinger, Wilcox), they're not stars, they're just role players. IMO, Rondo has made guys like Bass and Wilcox look fantastic - especially Bass last season. This season, Bass, Lee, and Green just haven't been locked in 100%. Rondo can pass those guys the ball in their spots thousands of times, but is it his fault that Lee & Bass brick open jumper after wide open jumper? Is it his fault that Green passes the ball back out instead of attacking the rim?

As I see it, Rondo is holding up his end of the bargain this season. There are just some things this team needs (a younger primary scorer, another big man to protect the paint - especially with KG out, Kendrick Perkin's passion/toughness transplanted into Jeff Green) that Rondo can't provide.

While I completely agree with you that Pierce, KG, and Terry are each too old to be the #1 offensive option (they're all good enough to be the #2 or #3, though), even at their age they are still better offensive options than the vast majority of young, in their prime scorers in the league.

If you're looking for offensive players significantly better than Pierce, KG, or Terry, you're starting to talk about young guys who are stars and who will get max contracts.  How realistic is it to expect the Celtics to get a player (or players) like that to put next to Rondo?

And this where the truth comes to light - if we can't get another near max caliber guy, can the Celtics be legitimate title contenders instead of just another middle of the pack playoff team? Look, I'd love to buy into the fantasy that Rondo + the 35 and over trio + a cast role players can get the C's an 18 banner, but I don't think this team is underperforming as severly as some think - it was always an miniscule shot that we'd be the dominant team of years past. I thought after this offseason that we would be an entertaining team to watch, we'd make the playoffs as a top 4 seed, but wouldn't have enough to beat Miami. In the 2012/2013 version of the NBA, you need another high impact player to truly compete for a title.

I'm on board with you.  I guess what I'm getting at here is -- are we in for the same deal as long as Rondo is our key guy?  Put another way, is this season going to more or less represent the status quo for the next 4-5+ years, similar to those teams built around Pierce and Walker? 

Are the 2012-2013 Celtics a lot closer to the 01-02 / 02-03 / 04-05 versions than the 09-10 / 10-11 / 11-12 versions (won't even mention the 07-08 and 08-09 versions)?
Title: Re: What Does This Season Say About Rondo?
Post by: ianboyextreme on December 18, 2012, 01:33:24 AM
I though the trade Rondo threads were over. Like, really over. Like never coming back. Like, even if we lose they are as dead as a doorknob. We are not losing games because of Rajon Rondo. Period. We are losing games because our defense has been bad.

Not totally disagreeing with you -- nor, I hope you'll notice, am I saying WE NEED TO TRADE RONDO NOWWW -- but to play devil's advocate, our offense is not elite, either.  In fact, our offense is worse than our defense.  Despite having a great passing point guard, we have a decidedly average offense. 

Hard to argue that Rondo is making up for that by playing elite defense, either, though he is getting a fair amount of steals.
I know your not saying that but I have seen many people say Rondo isnt truly great because we are not an elite offense. Most teams get a lot of points on offensive boards which we forfeit because of our defensive philosophy (which I agree with). The way to really see what Rondo does for our offense is to look at our fg% as a team which is over 50%.

Title: Re: What Does This Season Say About Rondo?
Post by: PhoSita on December 18, 2012, 01:34:41 AM
I though the trade Rondo threads were over. Like, really over. Like never coming back. Like, even if we lose they are as dead as a doorknob. We are not losing games because of Rajon Rondo. Period. We are losing games because our defense has been bad.

Not totally disagreeing with you -- nor, I hope you'll notice, am I saying WE NEED TO TRADE RONDO NOWWW -- but to play devil's advocate, our offense is not elite, either.  In fact, our offense is worse than our defense.  Despite having a great passing point guard, we have a decidedly average offense. 

Hard to argue that Rondo is making up for that by playing elite defense, either, though he is getting a fair amount of steals.
I know your not saying that but I have seen many people say Rondo isnt truly great because we are not an elite offense. Most teams get a lot of points on offensive boards which we forfeit because of our defensive philosophy (which I agree with). He does, however, get the team incredible looks which is why we shoot over 50% from the field as a team.

The looks Rondo gets our guys tend to be the lowest percentage looks in the game, though -- mid-range shots.

I guess it's fair to wonder how our offense would look if we surrounded Rondo with guys who shoot threes, and a few more guys like Wilcox who shoot 60-70% within 5-10 feet.


As for the point I was just making, looking through the Celtics teams of the last 10-12 years or so, you know what team this one reminds me of so far?

The 2004-2005 team.

Payton - Davis - Pierce - Walker - LaFraentz / Blount.

Won 45 games and lost in 7 games in the 1st round to the Pacers.
Title: Re: What Does This Season Say About Rondo?
Post by: ianboyextreme on December 18, 2012, 03:21:32 AM
I though the trade Rondo threads were over. Like, really over. Like never coming back. Like, even if we lose they are as dead as a doorknob. We are not losing games because of Rajon Rondo. Period. We are losing games because our defense has been bad.

Not totally disagreeing with you -- nor, I hope you'll notice, am I saying WE NEED TO TRADE RONDO NOWWW -- but to play devil's advocate, our offense is not elite, either.  In fact, our offense is worse than our defense.  Despite having a great passing point guard, we have a decidedly average offense. 

Hard to argue that Rondo is making up for that by playing elite defense, either, though he is getting a fair amount of steals.
I know your not saying that but I have seen many people say Rondo isnt truly great because we are not an elite offense. Most teams get a lot of points on offensive boards which we forfeit because of our defensive philosophy (which I agree with). He does, however, get the team incredible looks which is why we shoot over 50% from the field as a team.

The looks Rondo gets our guys tend to be the lowest percentage looks in the game, though -- mid-range shots.

I guess it's fair to wonder how our offense would look if we surrounded Rondo with guys who shoot threes, and a few more guys like Wilcox who shoot 60-70% within 5-10 feet.


As for the point I was just making, looking through the Celtics teams of the last 10-12 years or so, you know what team this one reminds me of so far?

The 2004-2005 team.

Payton - Davis - Pierce - Walker - LaFraentz / Blount.

Won 45 games and lost in 7 games in the 1st round to the Pacers.
We happen to have a team full of excellent mid range shooters, so thats perfect. And if the midrange jump shot is the worst percentage shot in the game (its not, the 3 and long two are), then why are we shooting a better percentage that 20 other teams in the league.

I remember the 04'- 05' team very very well because that was my first year as a Celtics fan. This team is NOT like that team. We have so much more talent as well as heart and leadership its not even funny.
Title: Re: What Does This Season Say About Rondo?
Post by: Galeto on December 18, 2012, 05:27:54 AM
I though the trade Rondo threads were over. Like, really over. Like never coming back. Like, even if we lose they are as dead as a doorknob. We are not losing games because of Rajon Rondo. Period. We are losing games because our defense has been bad.

Not totally disagreeing with you -- nor, I hope you'll notice, am I saying WE NEED TO TRADE RONDO NOWWW -- but to play devil's advocate, our offense is not elite, either.  In fact, our offense is worse than our defense.  Despite having a great passing point guard, we have a decidedly average offense. 

Hard to argue that Rondo is making up for that by playing elite defense, either, though he is getting a fair amount of steals.
I know your not saying that but I have seen many people say Rondo isnt truly great because we are not an elite offense. Most teams get a lot of points on offensive boards which we forfeit because of our defensive philosophy (which I agree with). The way to really see what Rondo does for our offense is to look at our fg% as a team which is over 50%.

A lack of offensive boards does not explain a bottom third offensive ranking the last three seasons including this current one.  From 2006 to 2009, the Phoenix Suns finished last in offensive rebounds but 2nd in offensive rating.  You can be a good or even great offense without offensive boards. 

I don't know what this says about Rondo but leading the league in assists while guiding a bottom third offense just doesn't sit well. I think this team leaves a lot of points on the floor by not even looking for secondary break opportunities due to the ball never being pushed away via the pass, wasting a ton of transition opportunities and shooting so many dang mid-range jumpers.  In the halfcourt, I don't think a team runs slower sets in the league.  The ball never zips around and too many shots are taken with ten seconds or less.
Title: Re: What Does This Season Say About Rondo?
Post by: BballTim on December 18, 2012, 05:53:16 AM


  Maybe we should trade him for Dwight Howard, he's got Kobe on his team and they're in worse shape than we are.

I think the Lakers are a resounding, neon-bright example of the truism that it is impossible to succeed in this league without a legitimate point guard.  As mediocre as Derek Fisher was statistically, he still had an intangible, steadying quality, and he worked in that triangle system.  Without the triangle, and without a legitimate point guard to run the offense, the Lakers are horribly inconsistent.  On top of that, though Dwight is putting up career average numbers, he's obviously not 100% defensively, and Kobe is exerting too much energy on offense to put in full effort defensively.  Add that to the fact that D'Antoni is the coach, and you've got a team that's pretty mediocre defensively.

Despite that, the Lakers are still top 10 in both offensive efficiency and defensive efficiency -- something the Celtics cannot boast -- and they have more wide-margin wins than the Celtics do.  There's evidence to suggest that as bad as the Lakers have been, they should improve a lot as the season goes on -- and that doesn't even take into account that Steve Nash should be coming back at some point, and if he's healthy he could majorly improve their offense, though he won't help their defense.

To put it a bit more simply, right now the Lakers are a very poorly constructed team with no depth.  Can the same be said of the Celtics?  Bottom line, I don't think there's a fair comparison to be drawn between the Celtics and the Lakers.  The Celtics don't have any of the excuses that the Lakers have.

  Yes, I suppose if the two teams aren't identical we should act like they have nothing in common.

  For the record, you're claiming that you don't expect to see any improvement by the Celts over the course of the season?
Title: Re: What Does This Season Say About Rondo?
Post by: BballTim on December 18, 2012, 05:57:40 AM
I though the trade Rondo threads were over. Like, really over. Like never coming back. Like, even if we lose they are as dead as a doorknob. We are not losing games because of Rajon Rondo. Period. We are losing games because our defense has been bad.

Not totally disagreeing with you -- nor, I hope you'll notice, am I saying WE NEED TO TRADE RONDO NOWWW -- but to play devil's advocate, our offense is not elite, either.  In fact, our offense is worse than our defense.  Despite having a great passing point guard, we have a decidedly average offense. 

  You really have to understand why the team's offense isn't elite, namely offensive rebounding. We do fine in the categories that Rondo would have more control over.
Title: Re: What Does This Season Say About Rondo?
Post by: BballTim on December 18, 2012, 06:01:38 AM
I though the trade Rondo threads were over. Like, really over. Like never coming back. Like, even if we lose they are as dead as a doorknob. We are not losing games because of Rajon Rondo. Period. We are losing games because our defense has been bad.

Not totally disagreeing with you -- nor, I hope you'll notice, am I saying WE NEED TO TRADE RONDO NOWWW -- but to play devil's advocate, our offense is not elite, either.  In fact, our offense is worse than our defense.  Despite having a great passing point guard, we have a decidedly average offense. 

Hard to argue that Rondo is making up for that by playing elite defense, either, though he is getting a fair amount of steals.
I know your not saying that but I have seen many people say Rondo isnt truly great because we are not an elite offense. Most teams get a lot of points on offensive boards which we forfeit because of our defensive philosophy (which I agree with). He does, however, get the team incredible looks which is why we shoot over 50% from the field as a team.

The looks Rondo gets our guys tend to be the lowest percentage looks in the game, though -- mid-range shots.


  While it's true that Rondo gets the guys shots they're comfortable taking, it's also true that we get a decent amount of shots at the rim and make them at a good clip, something that's impressive for a team that isn't loaded with low post players or even many "above the rim" types.
Title: Re: What Does This Season Say About Rondo?
Post by: mctyson on December 18, 2012, 07:06:16 AM
By a number of metrics, Rondo is having his best season yet. 

I don't agree with this at all.  His production this season is similar to his other seasons.  His assists are up, but so are his turnovers.  His steals are down.  Granted, he is shooting MUCH better than he did last year, but his overall FG% is slightly better than some of his other seasons.

If he gets his PER over 20, I will give him the nod.
Title: Re: What Does This Season Say About Rondo?
Post by: bfrombleacher on December 18, 2012, 07:10:56 AM
With no "3 hall of famers to pass to", seeing that one betrayed us and two have regressed so far (with KG only able to play 30 or less a game), that argument is FINALLY DEAD.

This team is at least somewhat flawed with the wing-player overflow. I think the lack of chemistry is worsened because of this.

Very few players can fix the problems that this team has at the moment on their own.

I still believe this team will come around though. I think there are things Doc has to figure out.
Title: Re: What Does This Season Say About Rondo?
Post by: PhoSita on December 18, 2012, 07:26:21 AM

We happen to have a team full of excellent mid range shooters, so thats perfect. And if the midrange jump shot is the worst percentage shot in the game (its not, the 3 and long two are), then why are we shooting a better percentage that 20 other teams in the league.


Midrange jumpshot, long two -- tomato, tomahto.

The Celtics hit a good percentage of the long twos that they're taking, but they are still long twos, which limits the offense because it makes it harder to get second chance opportunities, to get to the line, or to get extra points from behind the arc.

And no, the 3 is not the worst percentage shot in the game, when you adjust for effective field goal percentage.


  Yes, I suppose if the two teams aren't identical we should act like they have nothing in common.

  For the record, you're claiming that you don't expect to see any improvement by the Celts over the course of the season?

My point is that the key problems with the Lakers are not really similar to the issues that the Celtics have, so there's not much point in drawing a comparison.

As for improvement, I don't doubt that there will be some, but to this point in the season I haven't seen much to make me think that there's a lot of room for improvement.  Last season, a drastic change to the starting lineup and a return to health brought more consistency and a great record over most of the second half.  In 2010, it was clear a team full of talented vets was just coasting in the regular season, stepping up occasionally for big games.  I just haven't seen that "extra gear" this season, really at all. 

I think they will be better by the end of the season, and they'll step it up in the playoffs for sure.  But are they suddenly going to turn into a horse drawn carriage after being a pumpkin all season?  I don't see it.

By a number of metrics, Rondo is having his best season yet. 

I don't agree with this at all.  His production this season is similar to his other seasons.  His assists are up, but so are his turnovers.  His steals are down.  Granted, he is shooting MUCH better than he did last year, but his overall FG% is slightly better than some of his other seasons.

If he gets his PER over 20, I will give him the nod.

Well I guess the point is, do you think this season more or less represents the best we can expect from Rondo during the regular season? 

Rondo is definitely a different player in the post-season, but as far as leading the team to wins in the regular season, I think we pretty much know what to expect at this point.
Title: Re: What Does This Season Say About Rondo?
Post by: Celtics4ever on December 18, 2012, 07:40:27 AM
That he can't carry a geriatic team with a bad ineffective bench?
Title: Re: What Does This Season Say About Rondo?
Post by: SHAQATTACK on December 18, 2012, 07:54:09 AM
A bunch of 6 ' 8" role players are not as good as having a true 6' 11" or taller true Starting" center. who can play defend the paint

Good as he is , the team sucks without a Big dominating front line or youthful 4 's and 5's.

He is frustrated .
Title: Re: What Does This Season Say About Rondo?
Post by: wdleehi on December 18, 2012, 08:05:00 AM
We need the rest of the team to turn it around or a big trade made.



Otherwise, we could see the Celtics shop him while his value is up.  (not that I want them to but it is an option I can see the Celtics exploring if the team doesn't show some more life this season)
Title: Re: What Does This Season Say About Rondo?
Post by: SHAQATTACK on December 18, 2012, 08:17:43 AM
We need the rest of the team to turn it around or a big trade made.



Otherwise, we could see the Celtics shop him while his value is up.  (not that I want them to but it is an option I can see the Celtics exploring if the team doesn't show some more life this season)

This is way I see it too.   Rondo is NOT the problem , but maybe the solution , he is the only person that can bring in a center with trade value.

Maybe Cousins will get himself in more trouble and he can be traded for without out giving up Rondo.

I'm convinced the best player we can get without giving up ROndo might be Varejao., somehow....PLEASE DANNY figure it out.

The fans and coachs alike are waitng to see AB play , and his play might determine who is traded AB or ROndo for a center.

Or the Celtics can keep the current team and play .500 ball for the next 3 years.  Possibly make the playoffs.

I would never trade Rondo /AB /Sully for Gortat.
Title: Re: What Does This Season Say About Rondo?
Post by: wdleehi on December 18, 2012, 08:25:42 AM
We need the rest of the team to turn it around or a big trade made.



Otherwise, we could see the Celtics shop him while his value is up.  (not that I want them to but it is an option I can see the Celtics exploring if the team doesn't show some more life this season)

This is way I see it too.   Rondo is NOT the problem , but maybe the solution , he is the only person that can bring in a center with trade value.

Maybe Cousins will get himself in more trouble and he can be traded for without out giving up Rondo.

I'm convinced the best player we can get without giving up ROndo might be Varejao., somehow....PLEASE DANNY figure it out.

The fans and coachs alike are waitng to see AB play , and his play might determine who is traded AB or ROndo for a center.

Or the Celtics can keep the current team and play .500 ball for the next 3 years.  Possibly make the playoffs.

I would never trade Rondo /AB /Sully for Gortat.


If they do decide to shop Rondo, it is not going to be the Gortot/Side Show level player.


It will not be the Josh Smith level player.



It will be for someone they think can be a better foundation. 
Title: Re: What Does This Season Say About Rondo?
Post by: RJ87 on December 18, 2012, 08:58:51 AM
I don't think its fair to judge Rondo against how the team is performing. The cold facts: after Rondo, are 3 most important players (Paul, KG, and JET) are 35+. Paul at 35 years old is more suited to be a 2nd or 3rd option on a championship caliber team, not the primary scoring weapon. KG is still very effective, but only if he's logging 28-30 mins a game.

Now when you start to look at the youth on our roster (Green, Bass, Lee, Sullinger, Wilcox), they're not stars, they're just role players. IMO, Rondo has made guys like Bass and Wilcox look fantastic - especially Bass last season. This season, Bass, Lee, and Green just haven't been locked in 100%. Rondo can pass those guys the ball in their spots thousands of times, but is it his fault that Lee & Bass brick open jumper after wide open jumper? Is it his fault that Green passes the ball back out instead of attacking the rim?

As I see it, Rondo is holding up his end of the bargain this season. There are just some things this team needs (a younger primary scorer, another big man to protect the paint - especially with KG out, Kendrick Perkin's passion/toughness transplanted into Jeff Green) that Rondo can't provide.

While I completely agree with you that Pierce, KG, and Terry are each too old to be the #1 offensive option (they're all good enough to be the #2 or #3, though), even at their age they are still better offensive options than the vast majority of young, in their prime scorers in the league.

If you're looking for offensive players significantly better than Pierce, KG, or Terry, you're starting to talk about young guys who are stars and who will get max contracts.  How realistic is it to expect the Celtics to get a player (or players) like that to put next to Rondo?

And this where the truth comes to light - if we can't get another near max caliber guy, can the Celtics be legitimate title contenders instead of just another middle of the pack playoff team? Look, I'd love to buy into the fantasy that Rondo + the 35 and over trio + a cast role players can get the C's an 18 banner, but I don't think this team is underperforming as severly as some think - it was always an miniscule shot that we'd be the dominant team of years past. I thought after this offseason that we would be an entertaining team to watch, we'd make the playoffs as a top 4 seed, but wouldn't have enough to beat Miami. In the 2012/2013 version of the NBA, you need another high impact player to truly compete for a title.

I'm on board with you.  I guess what I'm getting at here is -- are we in for the same deal as long as Rondo is our key guy?  Put another way, is this season going to more or less represent the status quo for the next 4-5+ years, similar to those teams built around Pierce and Walker? 

Are the 2012-2013 Celtics a lot closer to the 01-02 / 02-03 / 04-05 versions than the 09-10 / 10-11 / 11-12 versions (won't even mention the 07-08 and 08-09 versions)?

Again, I think your logic is seriously flawed. As long as Rondo is our "key guy" is not the concern you should have - any great player needs a good team around him to win. Look at Kobe Bryant - he couldn't win in LA post-Shaq until Gasol arrived. Or Lebron in Cleveland, 2 MVP seasons but couldn't get it done until he got to MIA to team up with D.Wade and Bosh. Rondo as our "key guy" isn't the issue, the problem is Rondo needs some serious help. What this season has told me about Rondo: our PG position is in good shape for the next 6-7 yrs. But I absolutely cannot say that about any other position on this team.

Btw, the looks Rondo gets for his teammates are low percentage midrange jumpshots - but what do you expect when you have a team full of jumpshooters? All he can do is breakdown the defense and get guys OPEN looks, which he does pretty darn well. He's not going to magically make Brandon Bass into a capable post player. He's a PG, not a miracle worker.
Title: Re: What Does This Season Say About Rondo?
Post by: Chris on December 18, 2012, 09:04:31 AM
I am really curious whether Rondo is hurt at the moment.  He started the season playing the most consistent basketball of his career, especially on the defensive end.  He was making up for the rest of the team missing every rotation, by working his butt off on defense, and to me, he looked like he was making the leap to the consistent player I have wanted him to be for years.

However, over the last 2-3 weeks, his defense especially has really regressed.  He hasn't been fighting through the screens like he was earlier in the season, and he is constantly chasing his man, rather than beating him to the spot.  And I think his lack of perimeter defense (combined with the fact that they don't have much else to pick up the slack in that regard) has been an untold story of the teams recent struggles.

Its easy to blame the big men for not protecting the rim, but when your PG can't keep his man in front of him, your big men don't have much of a chance.

But he also has been constantly stretching and working his legs, which makes me think that perhaps he is hurting more than he is letting on.  His aggressiveness offensively has also dropped off a bit, and I think that would also point to injury.

And this is the problem with this team, as it stands.  They are now Rondo's team.  I think they are now closer to Lebron's Cavs or Paul's Hornets, than the C's teams of the last few years.  They have talent around their star, but they really do need their star carrying them to be anything more than a very mediocre team.  And, unfortunately, Rondo isn't Lebron, and he needs to be 100% to be able to carry the team on both ends of the floor like that. 
Title: Re: What Does This Season Say About Rondo?
Post by: D.o.s. on December 18, 2012, 09:08:26 AM
In regards to Chris's post--I hope this is just "regular season IDGAF" Rondo showing through.

'cause if he's trying to play through a nagging injury and exacerbates it enough that he can't play 100% in the playoffs, our season is done.
Title: Re: What Does This Season Say About Rondo?
Post by: guava_wrench on December 18, 2012, 09:10:56 AM


  Maybe we should trade him for Dwight Howard, he's got Kobe on his team and they're in worse shape than we are.

I think the Lakers are a resounding, neon-bright example of the truism that it is impossible to succeed in this league without a legitimate point guard.  As mediocre as Derek Fisher was statistically, he still had an intangible, steadying quality, and he worked in that triangle system.  Without the triangle, and without a legitimate point guard to run the offense, the Lakers are horribly inconsistent.
It isn't a truism because Fisher was bad. So were all the PGs that played with Jordan. So is Chalmers, in case you wanted to use the triangle offense argument to explain away all of Phil Jackson's bad PGs.

Pointing to "intangibles" is just a way to use magic to make a claim no one can respond to.

Championship teams are more likely to have good players at every position because they are very good teams. Yet no one position is mandatory, just an overall level of talent.
Title: Re: What Does This Season Say About Rondo?
Post by: celtics2 on December 18, 2012, 09:31:31 AM
Rondo is having an excellent year. He's won a ring, most NBA players can't state that. He will die on the vine here in Boston unless traded because we are going nowhere but down. It will take at least 2 seasons to rebuild and given Celtics past Management moves becoming a contender for him is a myth.
Title: Re: What Does This Season Say About Rondo?
Post by: ssspence on December 18, 2012, 09:37:34 AM
We need the rest of the team to turn it around or a big trade made.



Otherwise, we could see the Celtics shop him while his value is up.  (not that I want them to but it is an option I can see the Celtics exploring if the team doesn't show some more life this season)

This is way I see it too.   Rondo is NOT the problem , but maybe the solution , he is the only person that can bring in a center with trade value.

Maybe Cousins will get himself in more trouble and he can be traded for without out giving up Rondo.

I'm convinced the best player we can get without giving up ROndo might be Varejao., somehow....PLEASE DANNY figure it out.

The fans and coachs alike are waitng to see AB play , and his play might determine who is traded AB or ROndo for a center.

Or the Celtics can keep the current team and play .500 ball for the next 3 years.  Possibly make the playoffs.

I would never trade Rondo /AB /Sully for Gortat.


If they do decide to shop Rondo, it is not going to be the Gortot/Side Show level player.


It will not be the Josh Smith level player.



It will be for someone they think can be a better foundation.

This. I wouldn't rule out the idea that there could be a package of two players they'd prefer to Rondo, but I think that would be hard to find and unlikely at the same time.

Title: Re: What Does This Season Say About Rondo?
Post by: SHAQATTACK on December 18, 2012, 09:45:38 AM
We need the rest of the team to turn it around or a big trade made.



Otherwise, we could see the Celtics shop him while his value is up.  (not that I want them to but it is an option I can see the Celtics exploring if the team doesn't show some more life this season)

This is way I see it too.   Rondo is NOT the problem , but maybe the solution , he is the only person that can bring in a center with trade value.

Maybe Cousins will get himself in more trouble and he can be traded for without out giving up Rondo.

I'm convinced the best player we can get without giving up ROndo might be Varejao., somehow....PLEASE DANNY figure it out.

The fans and coachs alike are waitng to see AB play , and his play might determine who is traded AB or ROndo for a center.

Or the Celtics can keep the current team and play .500 ball for the next 3 years.  Possibly make the playoffs.

I would never trade Rondo /AB /Sully for Gortat.


If they do decide to shop Rondo, it is not going to be the Gortot/Side Show level player.


It will not be the Josh Smith level player.



It will be for someone they think can be a better foundation.

Yes,  I think your right.  If Danny can make the playoffs , that may be all he is actually after short term and just wait see what happens. Provide better than .500 ball entertainment if possible and make playoffs to keep the fans from panicking short term.  Then rebuild in another 2 years.

He probally won't trade Rondo /Pierce...without a disaster   ...DA might go for someone like JSMith or Varejao if they can be had with out giving up PP /Rondo.
Title: Re: What Does This Season Say About Rondo?
Post by: alajet on December 18, 2012, 09:54:57 AM
Well, if you are asking whether Rondo can single-handedly carry a team to a higher stratosphere, I would say no.
He isn't a scoring PG, so, he'll need dependable guys (not saying he needs superstars) at the very least to set them up.

For sure, without KG and Paul, Rondo would wrestle more of the scoring load, but still, look at the fact. Everybody is more or less agreeing that 35-year-old Paul shouldn't be our constant primary scoring weapon (again, not saying he shouldn't be our go-to player, but you cannot constantly leave the load to his shoulders), but a secondary option at this point, yet, Rondo didn't step up to push Paul into that position by any means.
Whether this is what Doc, or Paul, or Rondo wants, I don't really find it important. The thing is Rondo hasn't showed anything to suggest he can score 25 night in and night out in this league and without doing that, you cannot single-handedly carry a team to a completely new level.
Title: Re: What Does This Season Say About Rondo?
Post by: kozlodoev on December 18, 2012, 09:56:01 AM
The conclusion is that Rondo is not one of this guy who you can surround with half a dozen of "solid players" and expect a great season. And that's not necessarily bad -- Rondo is part of the solution, but the solution is to bring another all-star caliber player. Otherwise, you'll be the Orlando Magic with Dwight Howard for years to come.
Title: Re: What Does This Season Say About Rondo?
Post by: Chris on December 18, 2012, 10:04:05 AM
The conclusion is that Rondo is not one of this guy who you can surround with half a dozen of "solid players" and expect a great season. And that's not necessarily bad -- Rondo is part of the solution, but the solution is to bring another all-star caliber player. Otherwise, you'll be the Orlando Magic with Dwight Howard for years to come.

I agree, you can't surround Rondo with a half dozen solid players and have a great season.

However, you CAN surround Rondo with a half dozen solid players (actually, the C's have more than a half dozen), and beat ANY team in the league on a given night, if Rondo is healthy and focussed.  And that could be enough to make some real noise in the playoffs. 
Title: Re: What Does This Season Say About Rondo?
Post by: Snakehead on December 18, 2012, 10:17:10 AM
I though the trade Rondo threads were over. Like, really over. Like never coming back. Like, even if we lose they are as dead as a doorknob. We are not losing games because of Rajon Rondo. Period. We are losing games because our defense has been bad.

Not totally disagreeing with you -- nor, I hope you'll notice, am I saying WE NEED TO TRADE RONDO NOWWW -- but to play devil's advocate, our offense is not elite, either.  In fact, our offense is worse than our defense.  Despite having a great passing point guard, we have a decidedly average offense. 

Hard to argue that Rondo is making up for that by playing elite defense, either, though he is getting a fair amount of steals.
I know your not saying that but I have seen many people say Rondo isnt truly great because we are not an elite offense. Most teams get a lot of points on offensive boards which we forfeit because of our defensive philosophy (which I agree with). He does, however, get the team incredible looks which is why we shoot over 50% from the field as a team.

The looks Rondo gets our guys tend to be the lowest percentage looks in the game, though -- mid-range shots.


  While it's true that Rondo gets the guys shots they're comfortable taking, it's also true that we get a decent amount of shots at the rim and make them at a good clip, something that's impressive for a team that isn't loaded with low post players or even many "above the rim" types.

Agree here.

Rondo can't make players something they aren't.  Besides Rondo, step-slow Pierce, and Green, we don't have players who attack the rim.

Rondo can't change that.

The biggest thing, by far, that we are missing right now is defense.  Our offense has been weak some games but compared to years past I think it's more than fine.  We really need to pick up the defense though.  We have shown flashes, so I"m hopeful.

Bottom line is that Rondo is not to blame.
Title: Re: What Does This Season Say About Rondo?
Post by: BballTim on December 18, 2012, 10:45:53 AM
By a number of metrics, Rondo is having his best season yet. 

I don't agree with this at all.  His production this season is similar to his other seasons.  His assists are up, but so are his turnovers.  His steals are down.  Granted, he is shooting MUCH better than he did last year, but his overall FG% is slightly better than some of his other seasons.

If he gets his PER over 20, I will give him the nod.

Well I guess the point is, do you think this season more or less represents the best we can expect from Rondo during the regular season? 

Rondo is definitely a different player in the post-season, but as far as leading the team to wins in the regular season, I think we pretty much know what to expect at this point.

  I don't see why one of the worst seasons we've had with Rondo here (when even you are expecting improvement) is "the best we can expect". That's kind of like saying the more mediocre teams we've seen Paul or KG on is the best we can expect from them in terms of wins.
Title: Re: What Does This Season Say About Rondo?
Post by: soap07 on December 18, 2012, 10:54:35 AM
Part of the problem is the lack of offensive rebounding for the C's offense obviously. One of the problems is also Rondo is a fairly inefficient scorer. He rarely gets to the line and when he does, he doesn't shoot well from there. He obviously isn't hitting 3's. 13 points a game on 11 shots isn't very good. Teams know he won't look for his offense and don't bother guarding him. This is a drain on the offense.
Title: Re: What Does This Season Say About Rondo?
Post by: soap07 on December 18, 2012, 10:55:52 AM
Quote
  Yes, I suppose if the two teams aren't identical we should act like they have nothing in common.

  For the record, you're claiming that you don't expect to see any improvement by the Celts over the course of the season?

Er, the Lakers/C's aren't really all that identical. For one thing, the Lakers are a team with very little depth missing two top-caliber starters. Of course they're going to be under .500 in the West with a roster missing Gasol and Nash.
Title: Re: What Does This Season Say About Rondo?
Post by: BballTim on December 18, 2012, 11:34:36 AM
Part of the problem is the lack of offensive rebounding for the C's offense obviously. One of the problems is also Rondo is a fairly inefficient scorer. He rarely gets to the line and when he does, he doesn't shoot well from there. He obviously isn't hitting 3's. 13 points a game on 11 shots isn't very good. Teams know he won't look for his offense and don't bother guarding him. This is a drain on the offense.

  The average starting point guard gets about 14 points a game on 12 shots, 13 points on 11 shots seems pretty average. And you're seriously underestimating the effect of offensive rebounding on the Celt's offensive rating.
 
Title: Re: What Does This Season Say About Rondo?
Post by: BballTim on December 18, 2012, 11:36:48 AM


  Maybe we should trade him for Dwight Howard, he's got Kobe on his team and they're in worse shape than we are.

Despite that, the Lakers are still top 10 in both offensive efficiency and defensive efficiency -- something the Celtics cannot boast


  FYI, the Lakers are 17th in defensive efficiency, while the Celts are top 10 in that category.
Title: Re: What Does This Season Say About Rondo?
Post by: wdleehi on December 18, 2012, 11:40:01 AM
What does the Lakers and Howard have to do with the Celtics and Rondo?


Title: Re: What Does This Season Say About Rondo?
Post by: mgent on December 18, 2012, 11:53:45 AM
By a number of metrics, Rondo is having his best season yet. 

I don't agree with this at all.  His production this season is similar to his other seasons.  His assists are up, but so are his turnovers.  His steals are down.  Granted, he is shooting MUCH better than he did last year, but his overall FG% is slightly better than some of his other seasons.

If he gets his PER over 20, I will give him the nod.
Ah yes, a higher PER is what's holding him back.

And when he gets his win shares high enough he'll be a hall of famer....
Title: Re: What Does This Season Say About Rondo?
Post by: BballTim on December 18, 2012, 11:58:00 AM
What does the Lakers and Howard have to do with the Celtics and Rondo?

  He said that the Celts are playing poorly with Rondo so we should trade him. I suggested trading him for Howard since the Lakers are doing even worse. Shockingly, he decided that the Lakers trading Howard because the team is off to a slow start was a bad idea.
Title: Re: What Does This Season Say About Rondo?
Post by: Who on December 18, 2012, 12:13:07 PM
Part of the problem is the lack of offensive rebounding for the C's offense obviously. One of the problems is also Rondo is a fairly inefficient scorer. He rarely gets to the line and when he does, he doesn't shoot well from there. He obviously isn't hitting 3's. 13 points a game on 11 shots isn't very good. Teams know he won't look for his offense and don't bother guarding him. This is a drain on the offense.

  The average starting point guard gets about 14 points a game on 12 shots, 13 points on 11 shots seems pretty average. And you're seriously underestimating the effect of offensive rebounding on the Celt's offensive rating.

I don't like offensive rebounds being counted as a continuation of the same possession. I prefer offensive rebounds to be counted as a new and separate possession. An extra possession. So under those guidelines, I have the Celtics ranked 6th (last I checked) in offensive efficiency at 0.942 points per possession.

I also have the Celtics ranked 14 in defensive efficiency at .907 points per possession and 9th in the league in point differential per possession. 
Title: Re: What Does This Season Say About Rondo?
Post by: Vermont Green on December 18, 2012, 12:44:25 PM
What does the Lakers and Howard have to do with the Celtics and Rondo?

  He said that the Celts are playing poorly with Rondo so we should trade him. I suggested trading him for Howard since the Lakers are doing even worse. Shockingly, he decided that the Lakers trading Howard because the team is off to a slow start was a bad idea.

I think this season is telling us something about Rondo.  It is telling us if a team is "Rondo's" team with him as the best player, that team is not going to contend for a title.  At this point I don't even believe that he is the best player, I think KG and PP are 1a and 1b.

Now regarding the current state of play by PP and KG, yes, they have declined from HoFer level but they are both still really good.  I think this "supporting cast" for Rondo is the best he is going to see for sure unless he goes to a team with a clear super star.  Rondo could still change all of this if he develops a jump shot, but as things stand, he is not going to lead a team as their best player to the promised land.

Now all this Dwight talk, last year people thought I was nutty for thinking he was over-rated and not someone I wanted on the Celtics.  What is this season telling us about Howard?  There are quite a few players that I would trade Rondo for, DH is not one of them.
Title: Re: What Does This Season Say About Rondo?
Post by: BballTim on December 18, 2012, 12:52:09 PM
What does the Lakers and Howard have to do with the Celtics and Rondo?

  He said that the Celts are playing poorly with Rondo so we should trade him. I suggested trading him for Howard since the Lakers are doing even worse. Shockingly, he decided that the Lakers trading Howard because the team is off to a slow start was a bad idea.

I think this season is telling us something about Rondo.  It is telling us if a team is "Rondo's" team with him as the best player, that team is not going to contend for a title.  At this point I don't even believe that he is the best player, I think KG and PP are 1a and 1b.

  Two of the last 3 postseasons have shown the opposite. It might be the case that you don't think Rondo's our best player, that's probably been the minority view for the last couple of years.

Now regarding the current state of play by PP and KG, yes, they have declined from HoFer level but they are both still really good.  I think this "supporting cast" for Rondo is the best he is going to see for sure unless he goes to a team with a clear super star.  Rondo could still change all of this if he develops a jump shot, but as things stand, he is not going to lead a team as their best player to the promised land.

  Rondo's hitting long twos at better than a 50% clip, probably leading all point guards in that category. How much better would he need to do in order for you to say he's developing a jump shot? Leading the league?
Title: Re: What Does This Season Say About Rondo?
Post by: PhoSita on December 18, 2012, 01:04:26 PM


  Maybe we should trade him for Dwight Howard, he's got Kobe on his team and they're in worse shape than we are.

I think the Lakers are a resounding, neon-bright example of the truism that it is impossible to succeed in this league without a legitimate point guard.  As mediocre as Derek Fisher was statistically, he still had an intangible, steadying quality, and he worked in that triangle system.  Without the triangle, and without a legitimate point guard to run the offense, the Lakers are horribly inconsistent.
It isn't a truism because Fisher was bad. So were all the PGs that played with Jordan. So is Chalmers, in case you wanted to use the triangle offense argument to explain away all of Phil Jackson's bad PGs.

Pointing to "intangibles" is just a way to use magic to make a claim no one can respond to.

Championship teams are more likely to have good players at every position because they are very good teams. Yet no one position is mandatory, just an overall level of talent.

Look at what Fisher does with the Mavericks.  The guy has stuck in the league long after he's been a productive player, yet people still keep him around.  Why? 

Also, I should clarify that I mean that a team in the modern NBA cannot win without a legitimate point guard.  Yes, Chalmers counts -- though the Heat use LeBron or Wade as the point guard most of the time, so they can get by without Chalmers being any better than replacement level.
Title: Re: What Does This Season Say About Rondo?
Post by: PhoSita on December 18, 2012, 01:06:20 PM
What does the Lakers and Howard have to do with the Celtics and Rondo?

  He said that the Celts are playing poorly with Rondo so we should trade him. I suggested trading him for Howard since the Lakers are doing even worse. Shockingly, he decided that the Lakers trading Howard because the team is off to a slow start was a bad idea.

Woah. When did we have this conversation?  Because unless the "he" you're referring to was you talking to yourself, I never said any of those things that you're attributing to me.
Title: Re: What Does This Season Say About Rondo?
Post by: scaryjerry on December 18, 2012, 01:08:32 PM
that he's a rising star who's criticized too much within his own fan base.
Title: Re: What Does This Season Say About Rondo?
Post by: PhoSita on December 18, 2012, 01:09:21 PM
The conclusion is that Rondo is not one of this guy who you can surround with half a dozen of "solid players" and expect a great season. And that's not necessarily bad -- Rondo is part of the solution, but the solution is to bring another all-star caliber player. Otherwise, you'll be the Orlando Magic with Dwight Howard for years to come.

I agree, you can't surround Rondo with a half dozen solid players and have a great season.

However, you CAN surround Rondo with a half dozen solid players (actually, the C's have more than a half dozen), and beat ANY team in the league on a given night, if Rondo is healthy and focussed.  And that could be enough to make some real noise in the playoffs.

But that's exactly the point of this post, which some people seem to be missing.

Danny has surrounded Rondo with a collection of solid talent.  This should be enough to be a more than adequate supporting cast.  Rondo is having one of his best years yet, if not his best.

Yet the team looks decidedly mediocre.  Where's the disconnect?  That's all I'm asking.


By a number of metrics, Rondo is having his best season yet. 

I don't agree with this at all.  His production this season is similar to his other seasons.  His assists are up, but so are his turnovers.  His steals are down.  Granted, he is shooting MUCH better than he did last year, but his overall FG% is slightly better than some of his other seasons.

If he gets his PER over 20, I will give him the nod.

Well I guess the point is, do you think this season more or less represents the best we can expect from Rondo during the regular season? 

Rondo is definitely a different player in the post-season, but as far as leading the team to wins in the regular season, I think we pretty much know what to expect at this point.

  I don't see why one of the worst seasons we've had with Rondo here (when even you are expecting improvement) is "the best we can expect". That's kind of like saying the more mediocre teams we've seen Paul or KG on is the best we can expect from them in terms of wins.

I guess it's like those mediocre seasons we've seen from teams with Paul and KG if you think this supporting cast is analogous to those supporting casts.  Is this team on par with those Celtics and T-Wolves teams featuring guys like Wally Z, Sam Cassell, Antoine Walker, etc?  That may be so.

But if it is so, can we really expect Danny to put much more talent than this around Rondo?  When and how is that going to happen? 

If not, is "above average to pretty good" the best we can expect of teams built around Rondo? 

Or do you think that Rondo is going to take another step and become a guy who plays like a superstar almost every night, rather than just in nationally televised games, or two out of every three games in the playoffs?
Title: Re: What Does This Season Say About Rondo?
Post by: SHAQATTACK on December 18, 2012, 01:10:30 PM
The conclusion is that Rondo is not one of this guy who you can surround with half a dozen of "solid players" and expect a great season.

Thats well put,  LoL ...I think thats what has been on my mind all along.    Rondo is a star cal. player , but he an't Lebron or Jordon , he can't carry  the team on his back a whole season, just as CP3 can't do it by himself either,  he has some nice young bigs  :-X. Just adding some good role players like, Lee, Bass and Wilcox isn't going to put the Celtics on a deep playoff level.  I feel to put the Celtics "BACK" on the map so to speak , the addition or 1-2 star power bigs  will be required.   Or in the short term , a near-star such as Cousins would go along way to improve the team .  AB is part of the Solution, a pair of nice guards,  NOW we need SOME MEAT to go with them !!

I hope Danny can pull off a trade for a big , that won't break the back of the current Celtics too bad.
Title: Re: What Does This Season Say About Rondo?
Post by: Celtics18 on December 18, 2012, 01:11:07 PM
What does the Lakers and Howard have to do with the Celtics and Rondo?

  He said that the Celts are playing poorly with Rondo so we should trade him. I suggested trading him for Howard since the Lakers are doing even worse. Shockingly, he decided that the Lakers trading Howard because the team is off to a slow start was a bad idea.

I think this season is telling us something about Rondo.  It is telling us if a team is "Rondo's" team with him as the best player, that team is not going to contend for a title.  At this point I don't even believe that he is the best player, I think KG and PP are 1a and 1b.

Now regarding the current state of play by PP and KG, yes, they have declined from HoFer level but they are both still really good.  I think this "supporting cast" for Rondo is the best he is going to see for sure unless he goes to a team with a clear super star.  Rondo could still change all of this if he develops a jump shot, but as things stand, he is not going to lead a team as their best player to the promised land.

Now all this Dwight talk, last year people thought I was nutty for thinking he was over-rated and not someone I wanted on the Celtics.  What is this season telling us about Howard?  There are quite a few players that I would trade Rondo for, DH is not one of them.

When I read these "Rondo can't lead the team to a title" posts, I always wonder, "who can?"

Outside of Lebron James and Kevin Durant what players out there ensure, by simple virtue of being on the team--pretty much regardless of who is around them, that their teams will be in title contention?

Dwight Howard?  Chris Paul?  Carmelo Anthony?  Kevin Love?  Derrick Rose?  Deron Williams?  Blake Griffin?  I don't think so. 

I can't think of anyone who fits that bill, other than possibly James and Durant, and even they need help.

Rondo's a top ten player.  Surround him with the right talent and you've got a championship caliber team.  I'm not saying that's an easy task.  That's why only one in thirty teams wins the title each year. 

But, if there's one guy on this team who is an absolute keeper, it's Rajon Rondo.  We should consider ourselves very lucky to have a legitimate superstar caliber player making about $11million per year. 

Title: Re: What Does This Season Say About Rondo?
Post by: Chris on December 18, 2012, 01:12:06 PM
The conclusion is that Rondo is not one of this guy who you can surround with half a dozen of "solid players" and expect a great season. And that's not necessarily bad -- Rondo is part of the solution, but the solution is to bring another all-star caliber player. Otherwise, you'll be the Orlando Magic with Dwight Howard for years to come.

I agree, you can't surround Rondo with a half dozen solid players and have a great season.

However, you CAN surround Rondo with a half dozen solid players (actually, the C's have more than a half dozen), and beat ANY team in the league on a given night, if Rondo is healthy and focussed.  And that could be enough to make some real noise in the playoffs.

But that's exactly the point of this post, which some people seem to be missing.

Danny has surrounded Rondo with a collection of solid talent.  This should be enough to be a more than adequate supporting cast.  Rondo is having one of his best years yet, if not his best.

Yet the team looks decidedly mediocre.  Where's the disconnect?  That's all I'm asking.

And what I am saying is that I believe Rondo is not the type of player who can carry a team through a long season.  But, that doesn't mean he can't carry them in the playoffs. 

So, if you are looking for a guy to lead your team to win 60 games, we are looking at some evidence that Rondo might not be your guy.  But that might not translate to the same lack of success in the playoffs.
Title: Re: What Does This Season Say About Rondo?
Post by: Celtics18 on December 18, 2012, 01:12:36 PM
that he's a rising star who's criticized too much within his own fan base.

Succinct and true.  TP.
Title: Re: What Does This Season Say About Rondo?
Post by: BballTim on December 18, 2012, 01:14:10 PM
What does the Lakers and Howard have to do with the Celtics and Rondo?

  He said that the Celts are playing poorly with Rondo so we should trade him. I suggested trading him for Howard since the Lakers are doing even worse. Shockingly, he decided that the Lakers trading Howard because the team is off to a slow start was a bad idea.

Woah. When did we have this conversation?  Because unless the "he" you're referring to was you talking to yourself, I never said any of those things that you're attributing to me.

  So are you claiming that you said the Lakers should consider trading Howard because the Lakers are off to a bad start or that you didn't respond to my post?
Title: Re: What Does This Season Say About Rondo?
Post by: PhoSita on December 18, 2012, 01:16:35 PM
The conclusion is that Rondo is not one of this guy who you can surround with half a dozen of "solid players" and expect a great season. And that's not necessarily bad -- Rondo is part of the solution, but the solution is to bring another all-star caliber player. Otherwise, you'll be the Orlando Magic with Dwight Howard for years to come.

I agree, you can't surround Rondo with a half dozen solid players and have a great season.

However, you CAN surround Rondo with a half dozen solid players (actually, the C's have more than a half dozen), and beat ANY team in the league on a given night, if Rondo is healthy and focussed.  And that could be enough to make some real noise in the playoffs.

But that's exactly the point of this post, which some people seem to be missing.

Danny has surrounded Rondo with a collection of solid talent.  This should be enough to be a more than adequate supporting cast.  Rondo is having one of his best years yet, if not his best.

Yet the team looks decidedly mediocre.  Where's the disconnect?  That's all I'm asking.

And what I am saying is that I believe Rondo is not the type of player who can carry a team through a long season.  But, that doesn't mean he can't carry them in the playoffs. 

So, if you are looking for a guy to lead your team to win 60 games, we are looking at some evidence that Rondo might not be your guy.  But that might not translate to the same lack of success in the playoffs.

Okay, I see what you're saying.  And it's legitimate.  There's no doubt that Rondo is a different player in the playoffs.

But right now, this team doesn't look like it's going to get to 50 wins, let alone 60.

And how many teams go far in the playoffs without having home court advantage . . . ever?  Because even in the weak Eastern Conference you usually need to win at least 50 games to have a shot at home court in the first round, let alone beyond that. 

Indeed, in some more competitive years winning fewer than 48-50 games might see you missing the playoffs.
Title: Re: What Does This Season Say About Rondo?
Post by: PhoSita on December 18, 2012, 01:19:34 PM
What does the Lakers and Howard have to do with the Celtics and Rondo?

  He said that the Celts are playing poorly with Rondo so we should trade him. I suggested trading him for Howard since the Lakers are doing even worse. Shockingly, he decided that the Lakers trading Howard because the team is off to a slow start was a bad idea.

Woah. When did we have this conversation?  Because unless the "he" you're referring to was you talking to yourself, I never said any of those things that you're attributing to me.

  So are you claiming that you said the Lakers should consider trading Howard because the Lakers are off to a bad start or that you didn't respond to my post?

I'm claiming that you're drastically oversimplifying everything that I've said in response to your posts in order to make me sound like a fool.

1. I never said that because the Celtics are playing poorly they should trade Rondo.

2. What I said about the Lakers is that their early season struggles are not really similar nor do they have anything to do with the Celtics' struggles, so the comparison you made is a poor one, and not worth discussing further.

I sense that you don't particularly respect anybody who disagrees with you, but I'd ask that you at least make an effort to appear as though you do.
Title: Re: What Does This Season Say About Rondo?
Post by: Chris on December 18, 2012, 01:25:27 PM
The conclusion is that Rondo is not one of this guy who you can surround with half a dozen of "solid players" and expect a great season. And that's not necessarily bad -- Rondo is part of the solution, but the solution is to bring another all-star caliber player. Otherwise, you'll be the Orlando Magic with Dwight Howard for years to come.

I agree, you can't surround Rondo with a half dozen solid players and have a great season.

However, you CAN surround Rondo with a half dozen solid players (actually, the C's have more than a half dozen), and beat ANY team in the league on a given night, if Rondo is healthy and focussed.  And that could be enough to make some real noise in the playoffs.

But that's exactly the point of this post, which some people seem to be missing.

Danny has surrounded Rondo with a collection of solid talent.  This should be enough to be a more than adequate supporting cast.  Rondo is having one of his best years yet, if not his best.

Yet the team looks decidedly mediocre.  Where's the disconnect?  That's all I'm asking.

And what I am saying is that I believe Rondo is not the type of player who can carry a team through a long season.  But, that doesn't mean he can't carry them in the playoffs. 

So, if you are looking for a guy to lead your team to win 60 games, we are looking at some evidence that Rondo might not be your guy.  But that might not translate to the same lack of success in the playoffs.

Okay, I see what you're saying.  And it's legitimate.  There's no doubt that Rondo is a different player in the playoffs.

But right now, this team doesn't look like it's going to get to 50 wins, let alone 60.

And how many teams go far in the playoffs without having home court advantage . . . ever?  Because even in the weak Eastern Conference you usually need to win at least 50 games to have a shot at home court in the first round, let alone beyond that. 

Indeed, in some more competitive years winning fewer than 48-50 games might see you missing the playoffs.

Currently the C's are 1 game out of the 4th spot in the East.

Last year they were the 4 seed and went to the conference finals.  Last year they were on pace to win 48 games, had it been a 62 game season.  In 2010, they won 50 games, had the 4th seed, and went to the finals.

Boston needs to play better, but they are right in the thick of it. 
Title: Re: What Does This Season Say About Rondo?
Post by: SHAQATTACK on December 18, 2012, 01:26:15 PM
well it might be said that Rondos talent or star output level is highly dependent on the level of talent surrounding him. Which is two has beens and some average players.

He makes everybody better , but when used with Star bigs , ect...  he has point guard skills of taking a team to a level few other guards in history could. ...ie John Stockton , MJ , ect.

Right now , doesn't have the STAR power players in their prime to make that championship team come alive.  HE did with Allen , KG PP , 4 years ago.


The Celtics have TWO and 1/2 pieces .... AB and ROndo and KG  and a nice bench .  There needs to be a high quality big to depend on . and hope that Green is able to play SF in play of Pierce large minutes on day.
Title: Re: What Does This Season Say About Rondo?
Post by: PhoSita on December 18, 2012, 01:26:58 PM

When I read these "Rondo can't lead the team to a title" posts, I always wonder, "who can?"

Outside of Lebron James and Kevin Durant what players out there ensure, by simple virtue of being on the team--pretty much regardless of who is around them, that their teams will be in title contention?

. . .


Rondo's a top ten player.  Surround him with the right talent and you've got a championship caliber team.  I'm not saying that's an easy task.  That's why only one in thirty teams wins the title each year. 

But, if there's one guy on this team who is an absolute keeper, it's Rajon Rondo.  We should consider ourselves very lucky to have a legitimate superstar caliber player making about $11million per year.

I don't disagree with much of what you said.

1. Rondo is a very good player, one of the best 15-20 in the league during the regular season, and probably better than that in the playoffs.

2. Rondo is not good enough to single handedly lead a team to a championship, but most players not named LeBron James and Kevin Durant aren't, either.

3. Rondo is a great bargain at $11 million per year.

However:

a) It's going to take more than one top 15-20 player to build an elite team.  How are the Celtics going to surround Rondo with a better supporting cast than he's got this year?  That's the question I'm asking that nobody is even trying to answer.

b) Rondo isn't going to be a bargain after his current deal ends, which isn't that far off.  He'll get a max deal from somebody.  Once he's eating up a quarter of the cap, it'll be even harder to surround him with the talent we need to really go far.

Again, I'm not saying this because I think we definitely need to trade Rondo.  But I think there needs to be a conversation about this because it's worth asking -- how do we improve this team moving forward? 

If you think that more or less maintaining the status quo will be enough, then I can respect that.  Perhaps you think the sample size so far this year is too small, or you think the pieces just don't quite fit and a better arranged supporting cast would have more success.

I'm not convinced, though, and that's why I'm concerned. 
Title: Re: What Does This Season Say About Rondo?
Post by: PhoSita on December 18, 2012, 01:29:13 PM
The conclusion is that Rondo is not one of this guy who you can surround with half a dozen of "solid players" and expect a great season. And that's not necessarily bad -- Rondo is part of the solution, but the solution is to bring another all-star caliber player. Otherwise, you'll be the Orlando Magic with Dwight Howard for years to come.

I agree, you can't surround Rondo with a half dozen solid players and have a great season.

However, you CAN surround Rondo with a half dozen solid players (actually, the C's have more than a half dozen), and beat ANY team in the league on a given night, if Rondo is healthy and focussed.  And that could be enough to make some real noise in the playoffs.

But that's exactly the point of this post, which some people seem to be missing.

Danny has surrounded Rondo with a collection of solid talent.  This should be enough to be a more than adequate supporting cast.  Rondo is having one of his best years yet, if not his best.

Yet the team looks decidedly mediocre.  Where's the disconnect?  That's all I'm asking.

And what I am saying is that I believe Rondo is not the type of player who can carry a team through a long season.  But, that doesn't mean he can't carry them in the playoffs. 

So, if you are looking for a guy to lead your team to win 60 games, we are looking at some evidence that Rondo might not be your guy.  But that might not translate to the same lack of success in the playoffs.

Okay, I see what you're saying.  And it's legitimate.  There's no doubt that Rondo is a different player in the playoffs.

But right now, this team doesn't look like it's going to get to 50 wins, let alone 60.

And how many teams go far in the playoffs without having home court advantage . . . ever?  Because even in the weak Eastern Conference you usually need to win at least 50 games to have a shot at home court in the first round, let alone beyond that. 

Indeed, in some more competitive years winning fewer than 48-50 games might see you missing the playoffs.

Currently the C's are 1 game out of the 4th spot in the East.

Last year they were the 4 seed and went to the conference finals.  Last year they were on pace to win 48 games, had it been a 62 game season.  In 2010, they won 50 games, had the 4th seed, and went to the finals.

Boston needs to play better, but they are right in the thick of it.

I guess we'll see, Chris.

I understand that they started out poorly last year and turned things around.  The 2009-2010 team obviously was a picture of mediocrity most of the regular season.

But I tend to think that both of those situations were different.  I don't know that there's as much reason to think that this team can go to another level.

But I've been wrong before.  Hopefully what we see is not what we get with this team. 
Title: Re: What Does This Season Say About Rondo?
Post by: wdleehi on December 18, 2012, 01:30:36 PM
What does the Lakers and Howard have to do with the Celtics and Rondo?

  He said that the Celts are playing poorly with Rondo so we should trade him. I suggested trading him for Howard since the Lakers are doing even worse. Shockingly, he decided that the Lakers trading Howard because the team is off to a slow start was a bad idea.

Woah. When did we have this conversation?  Because unless the "he" you're referring to was you talking to yourself, I never said any of those things that you're attributing to me.

  So are you claiming that you said the Lakers should consider trading Howard because the Lakers are off to a bad start or that you didn't respond to my post?


Different situations.



Howard was just traded to the team.


Rondo has been here


Howard is a FA at the end of the season which will effect his trade value.



Rondo is locked up with a good contract.



Lakers have said they are committed to rebuilding around Howard.

Celtics have not said that about Rondo.
Title: Re: What Does This Season Say About Rondo?
Post by: BballTim on December 18, 2012, 01:32:36 PM
The conclusion is that Rondo is not one of this guy who you can surround with half a dozen of "solid players" and expect a great season. And that's not necessarily bad -- Rondo is part of the solution, but the solution is to bring another all-star caliber player. Otherwise, you'll be the Orlando Magic with Dwight Howard for years to come.

I agree, you can't surround Rondo with a half dozen solid players and have a great season.

However, you CAN surround Rondo with a half dozen solid players (actually, the C's have more than a half dozen), and beat ANY team in the league on a given night, if Rondo is healthy and focussed.  And that could be enough to make some real noise in the playoffs.

But that's exactly the point of this post, which some people seem to be missing.

Danny has surrounded Rondo with a collection of solid talent.  This should be enough to be a more than adequate supporting cast.  Rondo is having one of his best years yet, if not his best.

Yet the team looks decidedly mediocre.  Where's the disconnect?  That's all I'm asking.

  Maybe the disconnect is that you expect the team to play better than it is later in the season and you expect Rondo to play better than he is during the playoffs but you still posed this question like where we are now is the best we can expect with Rondo on the team.

By a number of metrics, Rondo is having his best season yet. 

I don't agree with this at all.  His production this season is similar to his other seasons.  His assists are up, but so are his turnovers.  His steals are down.  Granted, he is shooting MUCH better than he did last year, but his overall FG% is slightly better than some of his other seasons.

If he gets his PER over 20, I will give him the nod.

Well I guess the point is, do you think this season more or less represents the best we can expect from Rondo during the regular season? 

Rondo is definitely a different player in the post-season, but as far as leading the team to wins in the regular season, I think we pretty much know what to expect at this point.

  I don't see why one of the worst seasons we've had with Rondo here (when even you are expecting improvement) is "the best we can expect". That's kind of like saying the more mediocre teams we've seen Paul or KG on is the best we can expect from them in terms of wins.

I guess it's like those mediocre seasons we've seen from teams with Paul and KG if you think this supporting cast is analogous to those supporting casts.  Is this team on par with those Celtics and T-Wolves teams featuring guys like Wally Z, Sam Cassell, Antoine Walker, etc?  That may be so.

But if it is so, can we really expect Danny to put much more talent than this around Rondo?  When and how is that going to happen? 

If not, is "above average to pretty good" the best we can expect of teams built around Rondo? 

  No, we probably have a better (although not very cohesive) team tis year than many of the teams PP and KG had, but that still doesn't explain why you think that some of the worst play we've had on Rondo's team is the best we can expect from him. Do you generally think that the worst teams play with a given player leading them is the best they can do?

Or do you think that Rondo is going to take another step and become a guy who plays like a superstar almost every night, rather than just in nationally televised games, or two out of every three games in the playoffs?

  So you're saying that I could go back and look at the Celts games over the last couple of years and see markedly better play from Rondo on any nationally televised game?
Title: Re: What Does This Season Say About Rondo?
Post by: Chris on December 18, 2012, 01:35:50 PM
The conclusion is that Rondo is not one of this guy who you can surround with half a dozen of "solid players" and expect a great season. And that's not necessarily bad -- Rondo is part of the solution, but the solution is to bring another all-star caliber player. Otherwise, you'll be the Orlando Magic with Dwight Howard for years to come.

I agree, you can't surround Rondo with a half dozen solid players and have a great season.

However, you CAN surround Rondo with a half dozen solid players (actually, the C's have more than a half dozen), and beat ANY team in the league on a given night, if Rondo is healthy and focussed.  And that could be enough to make some real noise in the playoffs.

But that's exactly the point of this post, which some people seem to be missing.

Danny has surrounded Rondo with a collection of solid talent.  This should be enough to be a more than adequate supporting cast.  Rondo is having one of his best years yet, if not his best.

Yet the team looks decidedly mediocre.  Where's the disconnect?  That's all I'm asking.

And what I am saying is that I believe Rondo is not the type of player who can carry a team through a long season.  But, that doesn't mean he can't carry them in the playoffs. 

So, if you are looking for a guy to lead your team to win 60 games, we are looking at some evidence that Rondo might not be your guy.  But that might not translate to the same lack of success in the playoffs.

Okay, I see what you're saying.  And it's legitimate.  There's no doubt that Rondo is a different player in the playoffs.

But right now, this team doesn't look like it's going to get to 50 wins, let alone 60.

And how many teams go far in the playoffs without having home court advantage . . . ever?  Because even in the weak Eastern Conference you usually need to win at least 50 games to have a shot at home court in the first round, let alone beyond that. 

Indeed, in some more competitive years winning fewer than 48-50 games might see you missing the playoffs.

Currently the C's are 1 game out of the 4th spot in the East.

Last year they were the 4 seed and went to the conference finals.  Last year they were on pace to win 48 games, had it been a 62 game season.  In 2010, they won 50 games, had the 4th seed, and went to the finals.

Boston needs to play better, but they are right in the thick of it.

I guess we'll see, Chris.

I understand that they started out poorly last year and turned things around.  The 2009-2010 team obviously was a picture of mediocrity most of the regular season.

But I tend to think that both of those situations were different.  I don't know that there's as much reason to think that this team can go to another level.

But I've been wrong before.  Hopefully what we see is not what we get with this team.

See, I think it would be less of a surprise for this team to turn it around than it was for last years team.  Last years team had significantly less talent, after the injury bug hit them.  They came together, despite the fact that they were really piecing it together with their secondary pieces.

This year, they have a ton more talent, outside their core, which gives them a lot more room to grow.  Green, Sully, Lee, etc. are all guys they would have killed to have last year. 

Now, they still have to come together, and figure out their identity.  But, the talent is there, every bit as much as it was last season.
Title: Re: What Does This Season Say About Rondo?
Post by: BballTim on December 18, 2012, 01:36:55 PM
What does the Lakers and Howard have to do with the Celtics and Rondo?

  He said that the Celts are playing poorly with Rondo so we should trade him. I suggested trading him for Howard since the Lakers are doing even worse. Shockingly, he decided that the Lakers trading Howard because the team is off to a slow start was a bad idea.

Woah. When did we have this conversation?  Because unless the "he" you're referring to was you talking to yourself, I never said any of those things that you're attributing to me.

  So are you claiming that you said the Lakers should consider trading Howard because the Lakers are off to a bad start or that you didn't respond to my post?


Different situations.



Howard was just traded to the team.


Rondo has been here



  True, but both teams have made significant changes to their rotations.
Title: Re: What Does This Season Say About Rondo?
Post by: wdleehi on December 18, 2012, 01:40:16 PM
What does the Lakers and Howard have to do with the Celtics and Rondo?

  He said that the Celts are playing poorly with Rondo so we should trade him. I suggested trading him for Howard since the Lakers are doing even worse. Shockingly, he decided that the Lakers trading Howard because the team is off to a slow start was a bad idea.

Woah. When did we have this conversation?  Because unless the "he" you're referring to was you talking to yourself, I never said any of those things that you're attributing to me.

  So are you claiming that you said the Lakers should consider trading Howard because the Lakers are off to a bad start or that you didn't respond to my post?


Different situations.



Howard was just traded to the team.


Rondo has been here



  True, but both teams have made significant changes to their rotations.


True.


But the key players for the Celtics have stayed the same. 


I don' t think the Celtics will move Rondo but I would not to be surprised to hear rumors of shopping Rondo if the team doesn't pick up it's play. 
Title: Re: What Does This Season Say About Rondo?
Post by: Celtics18 on December 18, 2012, 01:46:44 PM

When I read these "Rondo can't lead the team to a title" posts, I always wonder, "who can?"

Outside of Lebron James and Kevin Durant what players out there ensure, by simple virtue of being on the team--pretty much regardless of who is around them, that their teams will be in title contention?

. . .


Rondo's a top ten player.  Surround him with the right talent and you've got a championship caliber team.  I'm not saying that's an easy task.  That's why only one in thirty teams wins the title each year. 

But, if there's one guy on this team who is an absolute keeper, it's Rajon Rondo.  We should consider ourselves very lucky to have a legitimate superstar caliber player making about $11million per year.

I don't disagree with much of what you said.

1. Rondo is a very good player, one of the best 15-20 in the league during the regular season, and probably better than that in the playoffs.

2. Rondo is not good enough to single handedly lead a team to a championship, but most players not named LeBron James and Kevin Durant aren't, either.

3. Rondo is a great bargain at $11 million per year.

However:

a) It's going to take more than one top 15-20 player to build an elite team.  How are the Celtics going to surround Rondo with a better supporting cast than he's got this year?  That's the question I'm asking that nobody is even trying to answer.

b) Rondo isn't going to be a bargain after his current deal ends, which isn't that far off.  He'll get a max deal from somebody.  Once he's eating up a quarter of the cap, it'll be even harder to surround him with the talent we need to really go far.

Again, I'm not saying this because I think we definitely need to trade Rondo.  But I think there needs to be a conversation about this because it's worth asking -- how do we improve this team moving forward? 

If you think that more or less maintaining the status quo will be enough, then I can respect that.  Perhaps you think the sample size so far this year is too small, or you think the pieces just don't quite fit and a better arranged supporting cast would have more success.

I'm not convinced, though, and that's why I'm concerned.

Good questions:

a)  I don't know the specific answers to that question.  I don't even think that Danny Ainge does at this point.  But, I do think we are in a fairly good place going forward with this team.  We've got more young assets than in the recent past; ergo, all the trade ideas and rumors involving guys like Lee, Bradley, Green, Bass, Sullinger, Melo, all our non essential players who might actually fetch us a player or two that make sense for the present as well as the future.  Or, some of those guys may end up having even more value as keepers. 

Also, we can finally (and sadly) start to see the end of the line for our aging stars.  Their leaving will free up money to make deals to bring in better players.

And, of course, we have one of the best players in the league on one of the best contracts in the league.  That's a good place to start.

b)Rondo is signed through the end of the 2014-2015 season.  Show me an elite level player that you think we can get for him that isn't already making substantially more money than Rondo or won't be sooner than by the end of the 2014-2015 season. 

I can't think of any. 
Title: Re: What Does This Season Say About Rondo?
Post by: PhoSita on December 18, 2012, 01:47:30 PM

  Maybe the disconnect is that you expect the team to play better than it is later in the season and you expect Rondo to play better than he is during the playoffs but you still posed this question like where we are now is the best we can expect with Rondo on the team.


Improving over the course of the season is one thing.

Going from a decidedly average team in every phase of the game except rebounding, where they are well below average, to an elite unit, is another.

We seem to agree that it's reasonable to expect this team to improve.  We clearly disagree about the room that there is for improvement.


  No, we probably have a better (although not very cohesive) team tis year than many of the teams PP and KG had, but that still doesn't explain why you think that some of the worst play we've had on Rondo's team is the best we can expect from him. Do you generally think that the worst teams play with a given player leading them is the best they can do?

See above.  It seems that we both agree that the team is drastically underperforming right now.  We disagree about how much improvement we can expect moving forward.

I gather that you don't really blame Rondo for that at all, and I understand that.  I don't blame him either, per se, but my point is that despite Rondo playing at a pretty high level, his play hasn't elevated the guys who are around him. 

Yet the value of a floor general like Rondo (in the tradition of players like Stockton or Kidd), one would think, is that he makes the guys around him better. 



Look, coming into this year I felt great about this team's chances.  For the first time, it seemed that Danny was building the roster with Rondo in mind, surrounding him with guys who better fit his style.  Yet if anything the team looks more disjointed than it ever has before.

From my perspective, the major selling point of building around a point guard like Rondo is that with a great passer captaining your ship the team can be much greater than the sum of its parts.  So far, this team is doing a fantastic job of getting less out of more -- and that's the case even though Rondo is playing at a high level more consistently than ever before.
Title: Re: What Does This Season Say About Rondo?
Post by: PhoSita on December 18, 2012, 01:50:48 PM


This year, they have a ton more talent, outside their core, which gives them a lot more room to grow.  Green, Sully, Lee, etc. are all guys they would have killed to have last year. 

Now, they still have to come together, and figure out their identity.  But, the talent is there, every bit as much as it was last season.

I tend to think so too, hence my concern, as I've already explained here in previous posts.

I guess I'm just not sure where the drastic improvement is going to come from.  Rondo is our most important player, but I can't imagine him elevating his play much higher than it already is, except in the playoffs where he takes on more of a scoring load and rebounds the ball more. 

That will help, but it won't give us the interior presence we so desperately lack, and it won't make the other guys more cohesive or their games more complementary.
Title: Re: What Does This Season Say About Rondo?
Post by: edwardjkasche on December 18, 2012, 01:51:02 PM
I never expected Rondo to LEAD a team to a title - PGs rarely do.

What I've learned from this season is something I already believed but that Rondo's play has made clear as day: Rondo cannot stay focused for 48 minutes a night, 82 games a year.

Not many players can, I know, but transcendent ones can (or can come close).  Rondo is not a transcendent player. 

Too often he disappears on offense or defense for stretches at a time, and when he disappears, others disappear with him (especially KG and Bass). 

A few years back, when Rondo would disappear, Doc simply gave the ball to Pierce or Allen and had them facilitate plays, but Allen is now gone, Pierce isn't the player he was, and Terry and Lee are still learning (or not fitting in). 

More is on Rondo's shoulders, and he doesn't seem to be able to carry the weight.  To be transcendent, you need to carry the weight when those around you cannot.  You actually need to want to carry the weight.  Rondo talks the talk but does not walk the walk.
Title: Re: What Does This Season Say About Rondo?
Post by: BballTim on December 18, 2012, 01:59:09 PM
What does the Lakers and Howard have to do with the Celtics and Rondo?

  He said that the Celts are playing poorly with Rondo so we should trade him. I suggested trading him for Howard since the Lakers are doing even worse. Shockingly, he decided that the Lakers trading Howard because the team is off to a slow start was a bad idea.

Woah. When did we have this conversation?  Because unless the "he" you're referring to was you talking to yourself, I never said any of those things that you're attributing to me.

  So are you claiming that you said the Lakers should consider trading Howard because the Lakers are off to a bad start or that you didn't respond to my post?


Different situations.



Howard was just traded to the team.


Rondo has been here



  True, but both teams have made significant changes to their rotations.


True.


But the key players for the Celtics have stayed the same.

  They have but they haven't. If you could choos the biggest issue with the Celts this year I don't see why you'd pick anything other than defense when KG's on the bench. So Steamer leaving wasn't a "key loss", but it really was. It's also true that much of our defensive issues are due to the newer players missing their rotations. So I'd say that the turnover has effected our defense more than our offense and our offense is better than last year's.


I don' t think the Celtics will move Rondo but I would not to be surprised to hear rumors of shopping Rondo if the team doesn't pick up it's play.

  That's an interesting issue. Do they dump Rondo and stick with KG and PP? I don't think that's very wise. Do they look at trading KG and PP and see how the new players look with Rondo? Do they keep all of the big three and try and flip the other players for another big?
Title: Re: What Does This Season Say About Rondo?
Post by: Chris on December 18, 2012, 02:00:50 PM


This year, they have a ton more talent, outside their core, which gives them a lot more room to grow.  Green, Sully, Lee, etc. are all guys they would have killed to have last year. 

Now, they still have to come together, and figure out their identity.  But, the talent is there, every bit as much as it was last season.

I tend to think so too, hence my concern, as I've already explained here in previous posts.

I guess I'm just not sure where the drastic improvement is going to come from.  Rondo is our most important player, but I can't imagine him elevating his play much higher than it already is, except in the playoffs where he takes on more of a scoring load and rebounds the ball more. 

That will help, but it won't give us the interior presence we so desperately lack, and it won't make the other guys more cohesive or their games more complementary.

I think it comes from a couple things.

Overall improvement by the team defense.  It is still work in progress.

Rondo playing defense again (hopefully with the help of Bradley).

Some shots starting to fall down the stretch by someone other than Jeff Green and Kevin Garnett.

Sully showing more consistent effort, so that he can take more of Bass' minutes.

And so on, and so forth.  Not only does this team have room to grow, but more importantly, they are not that far from being better in the first place. 

Yeah, they have a ways to go before they are competing with teams like the Heat, but they are not far off from being back in that second tier.
Title: Re: What Does This Season Say About Rondo?
Post by: BballTim on December 18, 2012, 02:06:26 PM

  Maybe the disconnect is that you expect the team to play better than it is later in the season and you expect Rondo to play better than he is during the playoffs but you still posed this question like where we are now is the best we can expect with Rondo on the team.


Improving over the course of the season is one thing.

Going from a decidedly average team in every phase of the game except rebounding, where they are well below average, to an elite unit, is another.

  I would disagree with this. Last year we were 20th in defensive rebounding, this year we're 7th. That's not well below average. Also, we score very efficiently (as Who pointed out). We also play very good defense when KG's in the game, if we can get somewhat better when he's on the bench we'll be back among the top defensive teams.
Title: Re: What Does This Season Say About Rondo?
Post by: Celtics18 on December 18, 2012, 02:31:10 PM

  Maybe the disconnect is that you expect the team to play better than it is later in the season and you expect Rondo to play better than he is during the playoffs but you still posed this question like where we are now is the best we can expect with Rondo on the team.


Improving over the course of the season is one thing.

Going from a decidedly average team in every phase of the game except rebounding, where they are well below average, to an elite unit, is another.

We seem to agree that it's reasonable to expect this team to improve.  We clearly disagree about the room that there is for improvement.


  No, we probably have a better (although not very cohesive) team tis year than many of the teams PP and KG had, but that still doesn't explain why you think that some of the worst play we've had on Rondo's team is the best we can expect from him. Do you generally think that the worst teams play with a given player leading them is the best they can do?

See above.  It seems that we both agree that the team is drastically underperforming right now.  We disagree about how much improvement we can expect moving forward.

I gather that you don't really blame Rondo for that at all, and I understand that.  I don't blame him either, per se, but my point is that despite Rondo playing at a pretty high level, his play hasn't elevated the guys who are around him. 

Yet the value of a floor general like Rondo (in the tradition of players like Stockton or Kidd), one would think, is that he makes the guys around him better. 



Look, coming into this year I felt great about this team's chances.  For the first time, it seemed that Danny was building the roster with Rondo in mind, surrounding him with guys who better fit his style.  Yet if anything the team looks more disjointed than it ever has before.

From my perspective, the major selling point of building around a point guard like Rondo is that with a great passer captaining your ship the team can be much greater than the sum of its parts.  So far, this team is doing a fantastic job of getting less out of more -- and that's the case even though Rondo is playing at a high level more consistently than ever before.

I think you've hit on a truth about this team here, but at the same time slightly missed the mark.  Where I agree is that I do think that Danny has started to build a roster around Rondo.  However, at the same time, we still are a team that relies heavily on the play of Paul Pierce and Kevin Garnett.  Those two are 35 and 36 respectively, and have grown to rely on playing a grind it out, defensive type game.

Doc's task is to incorporate the likes of Lee, Green, Bradley (when he returns), and Wilcox, the tempo guys--the guys who fit a Rondo style--in with the style of the older guys.  I don't think it's an easy task, but I also don't think it's an impossible task. 

We've got talent, but it's going to be a tricky thing to find the right balance, to get the most out of Pierce and Garnett this season, while getting the most out of Rondo and the more up-tempo players.

I think it'll happen.  And, when it does, I think we can be scary good.  When we turn that corner, a lot of folks might think that the transformation happened magically, but I won't think so.  I expect it. 

Title: Re: What Does This Season Say About Rondo?
Post by: ianboyextreme on December 18, 2012, 02:54:46 PM
Rondo is having an excellent year. He's won a ring, most NBA players can't state that. He will die on the vine here in Boston unless traded because we are going nowhere but down. It will take at least 2 seasons to rebuild and given Celtics past Management moves becoming a contender for him is a myth.
The purpose of you being here is to strengthen the faith of Celtic's fans who actually have faith in their team. Thank you for being an obstacle to overcome.
Title: Re: What Does This Season Say About Rondo?
Post by: Tr1boy on December 18, 2012, 10:26:05 PM
it says nothing. He is doing his job, actually exceeding it with what he has to work with. We need to pair him up with a younger kg player , someone with size that can handle alley hoops