CelticsStrong
Celtics Basketball => Celtics Talk => Topic started by: jdz101 on December 15, 2012, 10:58:56 PM
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I'm not going to post an apocalyptic style blow-it-up thread for a change, and just present some of the issues i saw with today's game.
1. Our guard defense is still poor.
Not enough effort being put in by rondo and co. to fight through screens and stay on their man.
2. Guys got caught ball-watching.
Bass was the main culprit of this. He let splitter sneak baseline several times. Terry also lost his man and gave up open threes. Sullinger was also guilty of this a couple of times in the small amount of minutes he played.
3. Lack of rebounding.
You cant give up second looks to a team like that. They will skin you alive on threes with second opportunities. The decision to bench sullinger when he was doing such a good job rebounding was an odd one, despite sully struggling with issue #2.
4. Green never gets helped out offensively.
Set green a pick for once. Why is Jeff Green's only play a post up or an iso? This guy can finish at the rim and is quick. Why not give him some separation with a pick?
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also Courtney Lee plays betta nd more aggressive without rondo for wateva reason idk
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They have TWO QUALITY CENTERS....WE REALLY HAVE NONE ...KG needs to be at PF ....
I feel sorry for the players ... Doc is coaching like total crap , trying to play a stupid type of ball , and the team has no CENTERS .... wut up ..day brain dade ? ???
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I think the main reason is they get into the lane easy. It creates havoc, wether its a kick out jumper or a layup. No shot blocking presence, no big body to cover up the paint. The offense in the 4th was alright, just couldn't make shots, but that's alright. Problem is, everyone can get to the lane easy. Everyone is towering over us, they get extra possessions because of it. I mean, De Colo got an offensive rebound because WE HAVE PIERCE AT 4. C'mon now.
We really need a Center bad. Either play Fab already or make a move.
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also Courtney Lee plays betta nd more aggressive without rondo for wateva reason idk
I don't think the reason is that obscure. When Rondo's out, Courtney gets to touch the ball a lot more consistently. He's like most players who play better when they can get into rhythm by being involved more.
When Rondo's out, Courtney actually gets to bring up the ball occasionally. He actually has the freedom to make a few dribbles up the court without having to see if Rondo's chasing him down for the ball. When Rondo's out, Lee actually gets passes thrown ahead to him where he can use his athleticism around the rim against a retreating defense.
The thing that bothers me most about Rondo is his refusal to pass the ball ahead. Not only do the Celtics have a poor fastbreak, they have by far the worst secondary break. You can't secondary break if the first pass comes at the 12 second mark or less a great deal of the time. This is not high school or college. If NBA players have space in front of them and the defense isn't set, they are incredibly dangerous and more effective. Rondo will not allow it.
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Lee had a transition layup against the Spurs that absolutely would not have happened if Rondo had been on the court. Instead of KG passing the ball up ahead to him, KG would have automatically passed it to Rondo who would have dribbled it up the court and Courtney's transition effort would have been wasted. Why can't the Celtics be like every other team and just freaking move the ball up the court any way possible? All the good teams do it. It's not only more effective but it's much more interesting to watch. There is nothing interesting with watching one guy dribble up the court over and over again to set up a half court offense.
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One thing that has bothered me all season is that when guys like Lee, Green, and Terry get the rebound, they always look to pass it to Rondo. I get that he's great at pushing the ball, but didn't we bring these guys in so Rajon didn't have to handle the ball all the time? Why don't they take. It the length of the court and make a play? It's really annoying.
Another issue is our perimeter D. I think everyone can agree that we give up far too many open threes, as well as drives to the rim. I'm not sure if this is a lack of discipline, or the guys are still learning. Bradley should help with this.
Rebounding will never improve until we get another big. It's that simple.
I've been trying my best to stay off the Varejao, Gortat, and Josh Smith bandwagons because I don't think they're a good fit, but as of now I'm beginning to think they are a necessity.
Overall, this team is mediocre. I've been very positive throughout the season so far, but the team's lack of progress is very frustrating. This is not to say I've given up, but rather that I think there needs to be a change.
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Live by the jump shot, die by the jump shot.
It would be nice to have a big with a half decent post up game to throw the ball to when no jumpers are dropping in.
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Here is what to take from the Spurs game: We would miss the playoffs if they started today. That is right, we are in the lottery. We are six games out of first already. This team is mediocre in every facet of the game and frankly looks like they have already given up. That is what to take from the Spurs game.
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Here is what to take from the Spurs game: We would miss the playoffs if they started today. That is right, we are in the lottery. We are six games out of first already. This team is mediocre in every facet of the game and frankly looks like they have already given up. That is what to take from the Spurs game.
Yeah I was actually looking for legitimate fan analysis, not some sort of generalized panic mongering that sounds like it's been recited from ESPN first take.
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Here is what to take from the Spurs game: We would miss the playoffs if they started today. That is right, we are in the lottery. We are six games out of first already. This team is mediocre in every facet of the game and frankly looks like they have already given up. That is what to take from the Spurs game.
Yeah I was actually looking for legitimate fan analysis, not some sort of generalized panic mongering that sounds like it's been recited from ESPN first take.
How am I panic mongering? The team is barely over .500, would miss the playoffs if they began today and has looked listless and mediocre all season which is now a quarter over. Why don't you face facts and stop living in Delusional Fan Land? My analysis is legitimate. The facts and our record bear it out.
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Here is what to take from the Spurs game: We would miss the playoffs if they started today. That is right, we are in the lottery. We are six games out of first already. This team is mediocre in every facet of the game and frankly looks like they have already given up. That is what to take from the Spurs game.
Yeah I was actually looking for legitimate fan analysis, not some sort of generalized panic mongering that sounds like it's been recited from ESPN first take.
How am I panic mongering? The team is barely over .500, would miss the playoffs if they began today and has looked listless and mediocre all season which is now a quarter over. Why don't you face facts and stop living in Delusional Fan Land? My analysis is legitimate. The facts and our record bear it out.
It's not really analysis to just state the team's record and then angrily rant about it.
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Here is what to take from the Spurs game: We would miss the playoffs if they started today. That is right, we are in the lottery. We are six games out of first already. This team is mediocre in every facet of the game and frankly looks like they have already given up. That is what to take from the Spurs game.
Yeah I was actually looking for legitimate fan analysis, not some sort of generalized panic mongering that sounds like it's been recited from ESPN first take.
How am I panic mongering? The team is barely over .500, would miss the playoffs if they began today and has looked listless and mediocre all season which is now a quarter over. Why don't you face facts and stop living in Delusional Fan Land? My analysis is legitimate. The facts and our record bear it out.
That's exactly my point. There is no analysis there. We all know the standings. Pointing out that the team isn't playing well because they're near .500 on the standings is stating the obvious.
I want to know what you guys think about why we're near .500. Thats all.
And I am in no way delusional about how we're playing. That said, every new game is an opportunity to get a win and get better. Dwelling on previous poor play is pointless unless you're learning something from it.
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Here is what to take from the Spurs game: We would miss the playoffs if they started today. That is right, we are in the lottery. We are six games out of first already. This team is mediocre in every facet of the game and frankly looks like they have already given up. That is what to take from the Spurs game.
Yeah I was actually looking for legitimate fan analysis, not some sort of generalized panic mongering that sounds like it's been recited from ESPN first take.
How am I panic mongering? The team is barely over .500, would miss the playoffs if they began today and has looked listless and mediocre all season which is now a quarter over. Why don't you face facts and stop living in Delusional Fan Land? My analysis is legitimate. The facts and our record bear it out.
Good thing there is still another 60 games then
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How am I panic mongering? The team is barely over .500
How amusing. Fifth placed Brooklyn is 1.0 game ahead of this team, so, they are also barely over .500.
would miss the playoffs if they began today
Playoffs are beginning four full months later.
Why don't you face facts and stop living in Delusional Fan Land?
Because we are fans. Fans support their team. They don't scream "Blow this up!" after mediocre periods of basketball. Fanship exactly requires that.
My analysis is legitimate. The facts and our record bear it out.
Analysis? Anyone with little reading and math skills is capable of looking at the standings, see we are just a tad above .500, and can also say we are out of playoff picture as of now.
I don't want to sound rude, but this is hardly an analysis of basketball.
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They have TWO QUALITY CENTERS....WE REALLY HAVE NONE ...KG needs to be at PF ....
I feel sorry for the players ... Doc is coaching like total crap , trying to play a stupid type of ball , and the team has no CENTERS .... wut up ..day brain dade ? ???
KG is a top 4 center in the east.
KG doesnt have the lateral quickness to play PF anymore. so stop with that foolishness.
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Main thing I take from this game is that the defense is still terrible and there has been little or no improvement through 23 games. I am sure it will get better at some point, but it is so much worse than last year it is staggering. Also, this team has zero inside presence. Finally, how long does it take to get this defense? A full pre-season and 23 games and they still look lost most nights. I am starting to think that there are players on this team that will never get it.
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I am generally a huge Doc supporter, but his rotations and schemes this season have been terrible. Terry and Lee haven't been playing great, admittedly, but they haven't been given the chance to create their own shots or handle the ball at all. Sullinger's defense isn't great, but it's not terrible, and he plays well in every other facet of the game, and deserves more minutes.
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My take aways was the Spurs game:
1) Spurs can play big and still hit jumpers and threes.
2) We have trouble with teams with two bigs.
3) Our D is weak and can't rotate that well.
4) Our bench is over rated.
5) We are old.
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Main thing I take from this game is that the defense is still terrible and there has been little or no improvement through 23 games. I am sure it will get better at some point, but it is so much worse than last year it is staggering. Also, this team has zero inside presence. Finally, how long does it take to get this defense? A full pre-season and 23 games and they still look lost most nights. I am starting to think that there are players on this team that will never get it.
Actually, the defense wasn't much better at this point in the season last year. Our defense was atrocious to start last season as well. We ended up with a top ranked defense anyway due to the turnaround about mid-way through the season.
Based on recent experience, I have reason to hope that our defense will come around again. As a matter of point, our defense has been getting better of late. It's had its poor moments still, certainly, but we've been steadily improving since the first few games of the year.
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Too short , too old , too slow , and Coach is off on a stupid coaching tangent of smallball .
We have no true impact players but KG and Rondo, and maybe AB when he gets back.
We need guys who can really ball.
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Last night's game was basically a microcosm of the season. There was poor defensive play by the front court players outside of kg, terrible perimeter defense by the guard, and core players under performing. With all that, too me the real problem is Docs coaching. I have always questioned Doc's status as an elite coach. He does not adapt to the strengths of the players on his roster. This year's bench is flawed because of the lack of a quality big man, but Doc is not getting the most of the talent he has. Green, Lee, Terry, and Barbosa are all either being misused or not used enough. They brought Terry in to be another player that could be used in the pic n roll, but they rarely use him that way. Instead, they have him running off Ray Allen screens mostly. Barbosa may be the most versatile scorer of the bench, but he either doesn't play or they force him to be the primary ball handler in an offense he doesn't know. Why not let Terry or Lee be the primary ball handlers when he is in, or play him more with Rondo.
Additionally, i think the fact that doc sticks to his minute limits so strictly that it makes the team to predictable and it often times kills momentum. Based on this, I don't know if any trade Danny makes will be effective. The team has talent now, but they are not being used properly. Another example of doc under utilizing a player was darko. Darko was flawed, but he was a talented big that should have gotten more than 1 opportunity to play. Why not try to play darko with kg instead of putting him out there with rookies and other bench players who don't know the schemes.
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hmmmm the myth the spurs are boring is the dumbest myth in the history of sports and they're elite and the Celtics are not...and we lose games and look horrible when Lee starts...coincidence I suppose
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hmmmm the myth the spurs are boring is the dumbest myth in the history of sports and they're elite and the Celtics are not...and we lose games and look horrible when Lee starts...coincidence I suppose
How can it be a myth when its an opinion?
They are freaking boring and aren't elite. They've sucked in the playoffs since 2006. Last year they finally were able to make a "run" but in general they flex their boring muscles in the regular season but suck in the playoffs, that's a fact.
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hmmmm the myth the spurs are boring is the dumbest myth in the history of sports and they're elite and the Celtics are not...and we lose games and look horrible when Lee starts...coincidence I suppose
How can it be a myth when its an opinion?
They are freaking boring and aren't elite. They've sucked in the playoffs since 2006. Last year they finally were able to make a "run" but in general they flex their boring muscles in the regular season but suck in the playoffs, that's a fact.
Whether the Spurs are boring or not is an opinion. I'm of the opinion that they're a boring team to watch. The Spurs generated lousy TV ratings for their Finals appearances in 03 and 06, and the 05 ratings were only bolstered by a Game 7. Their superstar is called the Big Fundamental, and that kind of player isn't going to create a lot of buzz.
Besides being boring, the Spurs are annoying. The ref every play, believe they've never committed a foul and react to the slightest contact like JFK's forehead in Dallas. I thoroughly enjoyed the Thunder ripping them apart in four straight last playoffs.
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I'm going to try to remember to post next October 20th that I'm really worried we would miss the playoffs if they started today.
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Main thing I take from this game is that the defense is still terrible and there has been little or no improvement through 23 games. I am sure it will get better at some point, but it is so much worse than last year it is staggering. Also, this team has zero inside presence. Finally, how long does it take to get this defense? A full pre-season and 23 games and they still look lost most nights. I am starting to think that there are players on this team that will never get it.
Actually, the defense wasn't much better at this point in the season last year. Our defense was atrocious to start last season as well. We ended up with a top ranked defense anyway due to the turnaround about mid-way through the season.
Based on recent experience, I have reason to hope that our defense will come around again. As a matter of point, our defense has been getting better of late. It's had its poor moments still, certainly, but we've been steadily improving since the first few games of the year.
The defense has not been this bad since before the new, big three era began
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Main thing I take from this game is that the defense is still terrible and there has been little or no improvement through 23 games. I am sure it will get better at some point, but it is so much worse than last year it is staggering. Also, this team has zero inside presence. Finally, how long does it take to get this defense? A full pre-season and 23 games and they still look lost most nights. I am starting to think that there are players on this team that will never get it.
Actually, the defense wasn't much better at this point in the season last year. Our defense was atrocious to start last season as well. We ended up with a top ranked defense anyway due to the turnaround about mid-way through the season.
Based on recent experience, I have reason to hope that our defense will come around again. As a matter of point, our defense has been getting better of late. It's had its poor moments still, certainly, but we've been steadily improving since the first few games of the year.
The defense has not been this bad since before the new, big three era began
The defensive numbers for the team that started out 15 and 17 were fairly atrocious. They had some pretty poor defensive performances down the stretch of the 2010-2011 season as I recall. Of course, the '08-'09 team that was missing Garnett for most of the season, wasn't great defensively either.
This team had been playing some good d for a nice stretch up until the last two games. If you want me to go back through the last five seasons and find a few sequences of two game stretches where the defensive numbers were as poor or worse than for the two games that we just completed, I'm sure I could.
My point here is that two games of poor defensive is hard to classify as a significant trend. It'll get better. It always does.
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Our guys bodies no longer obey their minds, it happens to all old guys at some point.
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Nickagneta has a great post about how poor the defense has been this year as compared to previous Celtics teams in the past 5 years: http://forums.celticsblog.com/index.php?topic=61084.0
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Nickagneta has a great post about how poor the defense has been this year as compared to previous Celtics teams in the past 5 years: http://forums.celticsblog.com/index.php?topic=61084.0
right, but that is taking into account the WHOLE season...I think he is referring to 50% of last season where we played below .500 ball
our defensive numbers ended up being good because we ended up posting SCARY defensive numbers when Bradley began to start.
and that is what I take away from the spurs game...we are SORELY missing thsi guy:
(http://cbsboston.files.wordpress.com/2012/08/avery-bradley.jpg?w=300)
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One thing that has bothered me all season is that when guys like Lee, Green, and Terry get the rebound, they always look to pass it to Rondo. I get that he's great at pushing the ball, but didn't we bring these guys in so Rajon didn't have to handle the ball all the time? Why don't they take. It the length of the court and make a play? It's really annoying.
Another issue is our perimeter D. I think everyone can agree that we give up far too many open threes, as well as drives to the rim. I'm not sure if this is a lack of discipline, or the guys are still learning. Bradley should help with this.
Rebounding will never improve until we get another big. It's that simple.
I've been trying my best to stay off the Varejao, Gortat, and Josh Smith bandwagons because I don't think they're a good fit, but as of now I'm beginning to think they are a necessity.
Overall, this team is mediocre. I've been very positive throughout the season so far, but the team's lack of progress is very frustrating. This is not to say I've given up, but rather that I think there needs to be a change.
exactly how i feel i was more optimistic but a slight roster shake up gotta be made
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Main thing I take from this game is that the defense is still terrible and there has been little or no improvement through 23 games. I am sure it will get better at some point, but it is so much worse than last year it is staggering. Also, this team has zero inside presence. Finally, how long does it take to get this defense? A full pre-season and 23 games and they still look lost most nights. I am starting to think that there are players on this team that will never get it.
Actually, the defense wasn't much better at this point in the season last year. Our defense was atrocious to start last season as well. We ended up with a top ranked defense anyway due to the turnaround about mid-way through the season.
Based on recent experience, I have reason to hope that our defense will come around again. As a matter of point, our defense has been getting better of late. It's had its poor moments still, certainly, but we've been steadily improving since the first few games of the year.
The defense has not been this bad since before the new, big three era began
I'll bet it was worse at the beginning of last year than it is now. And even this year it's been improving significantly over time. While the last few games haven't been great, a few weeks ago we were near the bottom of the league, now we're around top 10. We've probably been a top 2-3 defense over the time that we improved so drastically. Again, we've had a bad game or two, but aside from that the "our defense is terrible" posts missed the boat.
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3. Lack of rebounding.
You cant give up second looks to a team like that. They will skin you alive on threes with second opportunities. The decision to bench sullinger when he was doing such a good job rebounding was an odd one, despite sully struggling with issue #2.
11 offensive rebounds in a game like that isn't a lot.
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11 offensive rebounds in a game like that isn't a lot.
It is when the team shoots 47%.
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3. Lack of rebounding.
You cant give up second looks to a team like that. They will skin you alive on threes with second opportunities. The decision to bench sullinger when he was doing such a good job rebounding was an odd one, despite sully struggling with issue #2.
11 offensive rebounds in a game like that isn't a lot.
At one point in the second half (late third or early fourth), the Spurs had 10 offensive rebounds against 20 defensive rebounds for the Celtics. They were pulling down a third of their misses. A large number.
It wasn't until the fourth quarter after San Antonio had already built their 10-11 point lead that Boston started to even up the rebounding numbers.
I think the final box score made it look better than it was for Boston. The Celtics were chasing the game late on and out-rebounded SAS by 6 in final period ... but they never really threatened the Spurs in that final period. The damage was already done. The Celtics fourth quarter rebounding didn't carry much meaning.
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11 offensive rebounds in a game like that isn't a lot.
It is when the team shoots 47%.
First of all, it really isn't. And it's not the shooting percentage that matters, it's the number of missed shots.
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Nickagneta has a great post about how poor the defense has been this year as compared to previous Celtics teams in the past 5 years: http://forums.celticsblog.com/index.php?topic=61084.0
I've read Nick's post. I even responded to it. As I've already stated, the last two games weren't good defensively, but in the six games prior to that the team showed significant improvement, playing like a top defensive team in the league.
I will agree that there seems to be a problem with defensive consistency right now, but they've proven that they can still do it, and I expect the defensive consistency to come with this squad.
Who knows? Maybe, I'm just a foolish optimist. We'll see.
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3. Lack of rebounding.
You cant give up second looks to a team like that. They will skin you alive on threes with second opportunities. The decision to bench sullinger when he was doing such a good job rebounding was an odd one, despite sully struggling with issue #2.
11 offensive rebounds in a game like that isn't a lot.
At one point in the second half (late third or early fourth), the Spurs had 10 offensive rebounds against 20 defensive rebounds for the Celtics. They were pulling down a third of their misses. A large number.
It wasn't until the fourth quarter after San Antonio had already built their 10-11 point lead that Boston started to even up the rebounding numbers.
I think the final box score made it look better than it was for Boston. The Celtics were chasing the game late on and out-rebounded SAS by 6 in final period ... but they never really threatened the Spurs in that final period. The damage was already done. The Celtics fourth quarter rebounding didn't carry much meaning.
IIRC, Terry hoisted up a three down 6 almost halfway through the 4th. He missed, SAS (Parker?) hit a three, Terry missed another, and the lead ballooned from there.
The game was well within reach, and had Terry nailed that open three, the final minutes of the game could have been very different. In what could have been a 3 point game turned into an 11 point game in about 30 seconds. C's basically folded from there.
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3. Lack of rebounding.
You cant give up second looks to a team like that. They will skin you alive on threes with second opportunities. The decision to bench sullinger when he was doing such a good job rebounding was an odd one, despite sully struggling with issue #2.
11 offensive rebounds in a game like that isn't a lot.
At one point in the second half (late third or early fourth), the Spurs had 10 offensive rebounds against 20 defensive rebounds for the Celtics. They were pulling down a third of their misses. A large number.
It wasn't until the fourth quarter after San Antonio had already built their 10-11 point lead that Boston started to even up the rebounding numbers.
I think the final box score made it look better than it was for Boston. The Celtics were chasing the game late on and out-rebounded SAS by 6 in final period ... but they never really threatened the Spurs in that final period. The damage was already done. The Celtics fourth quarter rebounding didn't carry much meaning.
IIRC, Terry hoisted up a three down 6 almost halfway through the 4th. He missed, SAS (Parker?) hit a three, Terry missed another, and the lead ballooned from there.
The game was well within reach, and had Terry nailed that open three, the final minutes of the game could have been very different. In what could have been a 3 point game turned into an 11 point game in about 30 seconds. C's basically folded from there.
I don't think we played well enough to have any business winning that game.
We do have the team to beat them though.