CelticsStrong
Celtics Basketball => Celtics Talk => Topic started by: karimb on December 12, 2012, 09:15:28 PM
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It feels like Rondo always has assists on his mind. Even though his streak was broken, it still feels like he is thinking about racking up his assists numbers. He needs to really be more aggressive attacking the basket and let the assists come naturally.
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Hes a playmaker. Calm down.
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When Rondo scores we usually lose.
He is our main facilitator. Assists are equal to points.
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Hes a playmaker. Calm down.
This. He's always thinking about getting others involved and moving the ball to get the best shot possible. Sure sometimes he passes up open shots but I highly doubt that it's because he wants the stat
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It feels like Rondo always has assists on his mind. Even though his streak was broken, it still feels like he is thinking about racking up his assists numbers. He needs to really be more aggressive attacking the basket and let the assists come naturally.
Being that he's always been a pass first PG, him wanting to pass the ball is his natural inclination. He's not doing anything differently than he always has - he's always looked to pass 1st, 2nd, and 3rd. Its just that fans are now expecting him to become this breakout scorer. The expectations on him have changed, not his preference to pass.
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I dont mind him passing up shots because there are better shooters on this team but sometimes i would rather see him aggressive and drive to the hoop instead of kicking out for a three and we miss the shot...
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He did pass when he should have shot the ball a couple of times.
he is in relaxed mode tonight. but that's Rondo.
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ever watch a good jump shooting / shoot first point guard on a good team? jack their own shots and other guys are standing around
rondo actually goes out of his way to get the hot hand the ball, get guys who run or play good defense shots, miss matches, etc
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Here's something to think about, when you consider the pro's and con's of regular season rondo. When Rondo goes to the hoops he gets hit hard, and goes down hard.
In the interest of longevity, it only makes sense to change your style of play in the regular season, and while it is slightly less efficient to go for 13/13 instead of 20/10 that you tend to see from playoff rondo. It's not to the point where it will cost us many games.
When Rondo manipulates the defense and finds the open man. The open man tends to find the open shot and doesn't take any physical toll at all.
It's not a perfect mindset, but you also don't KNOW when you're going to take the hard set. So I think occasionally rondo will anticipate a hits coming a defer, and the hit doesn't come.
I don't think Rondo likes it when he does that, it probably eats at him a little, but its part of the game for regular season rondo.
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Here's something to think about, when you consider the pro's and con's of regular season rondo. When Rondo goes to the hoops he gets hit hard, and goes down hard.
In the interest of longevity, it only makes sense to change your style of play in the regular season, and while it is slightly less efficient to go for 13/13 instead of 20/10 that you tend to see from playoff rondo. It's not to the point where it will cost us many games.
When Rondo manipulates the defense and finds the open man. The open man tends to find the open shot and doesn't take any physical toll at all.
It's not a perfect mindset, but you also don't KNOW when you're going to take the hard set. So I think occasionally rondo will anticipate a hits coming a defer, and the hit doesn't come.
I don't think Rondo likes it when he does that, it probably eats at him a little, but its part of the game for regular season rondo.
Well said, especially considering that an injured Rondo won't help our team at all.
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Here's something to think about, when you consider the pro's and con's of regular season rondo. When Rondo goes to the hoops he gets hit hard, and goes down hard.
In the interest of longevity, it only makes sense to change your style of play in the regular season, and while it is slightly less efficient to go for 13/13 instead of 20/10 that you tend to see from playoff rondo. It's not to the point where it will cost us many games.
When Rondo manipulates the defense and finds the open man. The open man tends to find the open shot and doesn't take any physical toll at all.
It's not a perfect mindset, but you also don't KNOW when you're going to take the hard set. So I think occasionally rondo will anticipate a hits coming a defer, and the hit doesn't come.
I don't think Rondo likes it when he does that, it probably eats at him a little, but its part of the game for regular season rondo.
Good point. I would rather have a healthy Rondo in the playoffs and let him be more aggressive then. Rather then risking an injury now by attacking the hoop too much.
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This is NOT a new thing. This started years ago.
Doc must not care, because I know it would've been beaten into Rondo by now to be more aggressive offensively.
Too many easy points are lost by Rondo trading open layups for possible assists.
One of many things the Celtics do to flabbergast their fans.
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Yawn . . . another "Rondo passes too much" thread.
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Assists bring points to the board. Usually bringing points to the board is not a problem.
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This is NOT a new thing. This started years ago.
Doc must not care, because I know it would've been beaten into Rondo by now to be more aggressive offensively.
Too many easy points are lost by Rondo trading open layups for possible assists.
One of many things the Celtics do to flabbergast their fans.
Most of the time Rondo trades "open layups" for possible assists they aren't really open layups. Rondo drives into the paint and there's a defender nearby, but since Rondo doesn't try and shoot the ball the defender doesn't try and block the shot. Since nobody tried to block the (non) shot, people claim it was an open layup.
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Seriously? This again. Complain when he shoots. Complain when he passes. It's never ending. Rondos best asset is facilitating an passing the rock. Why on earth would you want him to stop doing that? Unbelievable.
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Seriously? This again. Complain when he shoots. Complain when he passes. It's never ending. Rondos best asset is facilitating an passing the rock. Why on earth would you want him to stop doing that? Unbelievable.
I hate when he breaths to much, I wish he'd just stop doing that, it throws everyone off ::)
Sarcasm aside, enough of these threads. Like pearl said, no matter what the kid does it's "oh he does x to much."
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His game is to facilitate and create shot opportunities for teammates. His assists equals to points. If he was trying really hard to get an assists to the point that he's desperately making outrageous passes then I get it, but he's always finding open teammates. It's not a bad thing.
This is why I said long ago that Rondo should be traded, immediately, just so he can get appreciated, because a lot here does not.
No matter what he does, it's never good enough or it's always too much for some people.
It's so unfair for him to be treated this way. There's a complain for every thing he does. There will be teams who would appreciate what he brings to the table.
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he's always played like this? now he's just a more efficient shooter now too, what's the problem?
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Seriously? This again. Complain when he shoots. Complain when he passes. It's never ending. Rondos best asset is facilitating an passing the rock. Why on earth would you want him to stop doing that? Unbelievable.
I don't think it's unbelievable. He passed up a wide open floater in the first quarter to drop the ball into traffic and turn it over yesterday. He makes mistakes when he tries to overpass, that's a fact. Luckily, these are fewer and farther between these days than they've been in the past.
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Have not read all the posts on this subject, but he loses his man a lot on defense(got away with a couple of steals off Mayo with backpokes though)
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Seriously? This again. Complain when he shoots. Complain when he passes. It's never ending. Rondos best asset is facilitating an passing the rock. Why on earth would you want him to stop doing that? Unbelievable.
I don't think it's unbelievable. He passed up a wide open floater in the first quarter to drop the ball into traffic and turn it over yesterday. He makes mistakes when he tries to overpass, that's a fact. Luckily, these are fewer and farther between these days than they've been in the past.
Floater isn't his shot, doesn't use it with a ton of confidence. Always has been more of an off the backboard shooter in the lane.
I wish he'd work on it more so he wouldn't have to pass when he gets deep intot the defense.
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Have not read all the posts on this subject, but he loses his man a lot on defense(got away with a couple of steals off Mayo with backpokes though)
He was crowding Mayo hard to deny the jump shot and trusting his help. Overall he did a good job until he started to get a bit gassed. Got hooked twice and shoved twice and only got the call once too.
Sadly late our help got tired too and Mayo hit some tough runners (and some easy ones)
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This is NOT a new thing. This started years ago.
Doc must not care, because I know it would've been beaten into Rondo by now to be more aggressive offensively.
Too many easy points are lost by Rondo trading open layups for possible assists.
One of many things the Celtics do to flabbergast their fans.
Most of the time Rondo trades "open layups" for possible assists they aren't really open layups. Rondo drives into the paint and there's a defender nearby, but since Rondo doesn't try and shoot the ball the defender doesn't try and block the shot. Since nobody tried to block the (non) shot, people claim it was an open layup.
So if defenders aren't going to attempt to block the shot, he needs to adjust and start shooting it.
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He turns the ball over a bit too much for my taste, but he does so trying to make plays. I can live with that.
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Seriously? This again. Complain when he shoots. Complain when he passes. It's never ending. Rondos best asset is facilitating an passing the rock. Why on earth would you want him to stop doing that? Unbelievable.
I don't think it's unbelievable. He passed up a wide open floater in the first quarter to drop the ball into traffic and turn it over yesterday. He makes mistakes when he tries to overpass, that's a fact. Luckily, these are fewer and farther between these days than they've been in the past.
I don't know if this is the same one I saw, but I definitely saw one too. I thought it was in the 3rd quarter though. Could be the same, could be a different instance. 8 feet from the hoop in the lane, in mid air, open and passed it into traffic for a turnover?
I love the accusations from the "Rondo supporters" that people who wonder if Rondo is thinking too much assists are are "Rondo haters" and criticize everything he does. Is it really so treasonous to be curious when a remarkably intelligent Rajon Rondo has a wide open shot from 8 feet, is literally uncontested in mid air about to take the wide open shot and decides to pass into traffic and turn the ball over?
I love Rajon and I love that he is a pass first point guard. But some of these passing plays are simply not intelligent plays and I didn't see from some of the most unselfish players of our time (Nash, Kidd, etc). I'm sure other intelligent players besides Rondo have questionable tendencies as well and I think it is right to be curious about all of them.
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Rondo had a bad decision making night last night. IMO, it was his worst of the year. Not only did he make a bunch of bad decisions with the ball, but he was a lot slower recognizing things than he normally is. A handful of times, it seems that he forced a pass when he saw the open man too late, and it led to a broken play or turnover.
But, overall, I think it was an aberation, based on the way he has played all season.
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Rondo had a bad decision making night last night. IMO, it was his worst of the year. Not only did he make a bunch of bad decisions with the ball, but he was a lot slower recognizing things than he normally is. A handful of times, it seems that he forced a pass when he saw the open man too late, and it led to a broken play or turnover.
But, overall, I think it was an aberation, based on the way he has played all season.
Maybe a few rough decisions here and there but not as bad as Mayo! I cant believe the Mavs almost hit the 30 turnover mark. And to not even get the ball in bounds with 5 seconds left of a double overtime game to get a shot towards the rim. I mean, why was everyone on the other side of half court? Go get the ball and make a run.
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Rondo had a bad decision making night last night. IMO, it was his worst of the year. Not only did he make a bunch of bad decisions with the ball, but he was a lot slower recognizing things than he normally is. A handful of times, it seems that he forced a pass when he saw the open man too late, and it led to a broken play or turnover.
But, overall, I think it was an aberation, based on the way he has played all season.
I thought he started the game off poorly in that regard but got better as the game went on.
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You know, I'm not a huge hater of Rondo going for assists as much as I am about Paul Pierce Iso Plays. Last night was so frustrating in that regard.
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Seriously? This again. Complain when he shoots. Complain when he passes. It's never ending. Rondos best asset is facilitating an passing the rock. Why on earth would you want him to stop doing that? Unbelievable.
I don't think it's unbelievable. He passed up a wide open floater in the first quarter to drop the ball into traffic and turn it over yesterday. He makes mistakes when he tries to overpass, that's a fact. Luckily, these are fewer and farther between these days than they've been in the past.
I don't know if this is the same one I saw, but I definitely saw one too. I thought it was in the 3rd quarter though. Could be the same, could be a different instance. 8 feet from the hoop in the lane, in mid air, open and passed it into traffic for a turnover?
I love the accusations from the "Rondo supporters" that people who wonder if Rondo is thinking too much assists are are "Rondo haters" and criticize everything he does. Is it really so treasonous to be curious when a remarkably intelligent Rajon Rondo has a wide open shot from 8 feet, is literally uncontested in mid air about to take the wide open shot and decides to pass into traffic and turn the ball over?
I think he generally decides what he's going to do before he's in mid-air but the play doesn't work out every time.
I love Rajon and I love that he is a pass first point guard. But some of these passing plays are simply not intelligent plays and I didn't see from some of the most unselfish players of our time (Nash, Kidd, etc). I'm sure other intelligent players besides Rondo have questionable tendencies as well and I think it is right to be curious about all of them.
Rondo takes better care of the ball than Nash or Kidd did. If they didn't have the same "questionable tendencies" that Rondo did, why did they turn the ball over more often? Inferior passing and ball-handling skills to Rondo's?
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Rondo takes better care of the ball than Nash or Kidd did. If they didn't have the same "questionable tendencies" that Rondo did, why did they turn the ball over more often? Inferior passing and ball-handling skills to Rondo's?
This is simply not true. Rondo and Nash are turning the ball over at approximately the same rate (2.9 for Nash, 2.7 for Rondo over approximately the same amount of minutes per game). Kidd is distinctly less turnover prone than both of them (1.9 in 36 mpg for career).
Undoubtedly, if you handle the ball a lot and are expected to make stuff happen, you'll turn it over more than, say, a spot-up shooter would. In the grand scheme of things, I don't think Rondo's propensity to make ill-advised passes is worse than, say, Pierce's propensity to take ill-advised shots at this point. But it's a real issue.
This doesn't in any way belittle the fact that rond's having a phenomenal year, but that's a different discussion altogether.
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Rondo takes better care of the ball than Nash or Kidd did. If they didn't have the same "questionable tendencies" that Rondo did, why did they turn the ball over more often? Inferior passing and ball-handling skills to Rondo's?
This is simply not true. Rondo and Nash are turning the ball over at approximately the same rate (2.9 for Nash, 2.7 for Rondo over approximately the same amount of minutes per game). Kidd is distinctly less turnover prone than both of them (1.9 in 36 mpg for career).
Of course it's true. Rondo has a better career assist/turnover ratio than either of them. It's also worth pointing out that Nash and Kidd both took better care of the ball as they got older. This is Rondo's 7th year in the league and his 5th straight year with an assist/turnover ratio better than 3/1. Kidd did that twice in his first 7 years, Nash did once (when he was 2 years older than Rondo is now).
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Rondo takes better care of the ball than Nash or Kidd did. If they didn't have the same "questionable tendencies" that Rondo did, why did they turn the ball over more often? Inferior passing and ball-handling skills to Rondo's?
This is simply not true. Rondo and Nash are turning the ball over at approximately the same rate (2.9 for Nash, 2.7 for Rondo over approximately the same amount of minutes per game). Kidd is distinctly less turnover prone than both of them (1.9 in 36 mpg for career).
Of course it's true. Rondo has a better career assist/turnover ratio than either of them. It's also worth pointing out that Nash and Kidd both took better care of the ball as they got older. This is Rondo's 7th year in the league and his 5th straight year with an assist/turnover ratio better than 3/1. Kidd did that twice in his first 7 years, Nash did once (when he was 2 years older than Rondo is now).
Of course it isn't.
Using assist to turnover ratio assumes that the only productive indicator of a possession is an assist. It patently ignores the fact that Nash takes a shot more per game, and Kidd takes two shots more per game, on average.
edit: I did, in fact, look at the wrong column on Kidd's stat sheet, so that talk about 1.9 TO per game is not qutie true :)
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Rondo takes better care of the ball than Nash or Kidd did. If they didn't have the same "questionable tendencies" that Rondo did, why did they turn the ball over more often? Inferior passing and ball-handling skills to Rondo's?
This is simply not true. Rondo and Nash are turning the ball over at approximately the same rate (2.9 for Nash, 2.7 for Rondo over approximately the same amount of minutes per game). Kidd is distinctly less turnover prone than both of them (1.9 in 36 mpg for career).
Of course it's true. Rondo has a better career assist/turnover ratio than either of them. It's also worth pointing out that Nash and Kidd both took better care of the ball as they got older. This is Rondo's 7th year in the league and his 5th straight year with an assist/turnover ratio better than 3/1. Kidd did that twice in his first 7 years, Nash did once (when he was 2 years older than Rondo is now).
Of course it isn't.
Using assist to turnover ratio assumes that the only productive indicator of a possession is an assist. It patently ignores the fact that Nash takes a shot more per game, and Kidd takes two shots more per game, on average.
The large majority of turnovers for all three players come from passes, not shooting the ball.
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The large majority of turnovers for all three players come from passes, not shooting the ball.
Certainly.
But the issue here is that if you choose to shoot instead of pass, that can still be "taking good care of the ball". You're excluding shots from the equation altogether, which is a problem.
Rondo's dead last in shots + assists to turnover ratio, and given that he takes the least shots of all three guys.
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The large majority of turnovers for all three players come from passes, not shooting the ball.
Certainly.
But the issue here is that if you choose to shoot instead of pass, that can still be "taking good care of the ball". You're excluding shots from the equation altogether, which is a problem.
Rondo's dead last in shots + assists to turnover ratio, and given that he takes the least shots of all three guys.
That's kind of silly, but if you want to go down that route then you'd need to explain why you consider missed shots to be "taking good care of the ball".
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Rondo had a bad decision making night last night. IMO, it was his worst of the year. Not only did he make a bunch of bad decisions with the ball, but he was a lot slower recognizing things than he normally is. A handful of times, it seems that he forced a pass when he saw the open man too late, and it led to a broken play or turnover.
But, overall, I think it was an aberation, based on the way he has played all season.
I thought he started the game off poorly in that regard but got better as the game went on.
I agree, I think Mayo got much better as the game went on. I was very impressed with him last night b/c of how well he finished the game
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Rondo had a bad decision making night last night. IMO, it was his worst of the year. Not only did he make a bunch of bad decisions with the ball, but he was a lot slower recognizing things than he normally is. A handful of times, it seems that he forced a pass when he saw the open man too late, and it led to a broken play or turnover.
But, overall, I think it was an aberation, based on the way he has played all season.
I thought he started the game off poorly in that regard but got better as the game went on.
I agree, I think Mayo got much better as the game went on. I was very impressed with him last night b/c of how well he finished the game
Obviously we weren't talking about Mayo, but he played the last 17 minutes of the game. Ignoring the buzzer-beating uncontested 3 after the game was decided he had 7 points, 2 rebound, 2 assists and 4 turnovers during that time. I don't know that I'd call that great finishing, but opinions vary.
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I agree, I think Mayo got much better as the game went on. I was very impressed with him last night b/c of how well he finished the game
How much of that was Mayo and how much of that was Rondo playing with five fouls and tired because Doc didn't give him a rest in the middle of the half?
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Rondo had a bad decision making night last night. IMO, it was his worst of the year. Not only did he make a bunch of bad decisions with the ball, but he was a lot slower recognizing things than he normally is. A handful of times, it seems that he forced a pass when he saw the open man too late, and it led to a broken play or turnover.
But, overall, I think it was an aberation, based on the way he has played all season.
I thought he started the game off poorly in that regard but got better as the game went on.
I agree, I think Mayo got much better as the game went on. I was very impressed with him last night b/c of how well he finished the game
Obviously we weren't talking about Mayo, but he played the last 17 minutes of the game. Ignoring the buzzer-beating uncontested 3 after the game was decided he had 7 points, 2 rebound, 2 assists and 4 turnovers during that time. I don't know that I'd call that great finishing, but opinions vary.
Oh, yup. Smooshed in your response here with the one above this from pearljammer as I was reading through the thread.
Those were his second half stats or just the last 17 minutes? Wow, for some reason I thought he had more after halftime (I don't know where to look that up). Or maybe his plays were just nice looking so jumped out to me? I did have a bit to drink while watching.
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I agree, I think Mayo got much better as the game went on. I was very impressed with him last night b/c of how well he finished the game
How much of that was Mayo and how much of that was Rondo playing with five fouls and tired because Doc didn't give him a rest in the middle of the half?
A combination of the two. Doc even mentioned it today when he talked to the media.
Mayo also definitely attacked aggressively when he was able to get switched onto Terry or even Lee. Rondo was really suffocating him while they were matched up for the most part. I was very happy with Rondo's effort last night.
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I agree, I think Mayo got much better as the game went on. I was very impressed with him last night b/c of how well he finished the game
How much of that was Mayo and how much of that was Rondo playing with five fouls and tired because Doc didn't give him a rest in the middle of the half?
A combination of the two. Doc even mentioned it today when he talked to the media.
Mayo also definitely attacked aggressively when he was able to get switched onto Terry or even Lee. Rondo was really suffocating him while they were matched up for the most part. I was very happy with Rondo's effort last night.
Rondo did a great job on Mayo in the first quarter from what I remember. I particularly remember being unimpressed with Lee's defense on Mayo. I'm one who usually raves on this blog about Lee's defense (and even started a thread about it).
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Rondo takes better care of the ball than Nash or Kidd did. If they didn't have the same "questionable tendencies" that Rondo did, why did they turn the ball over more often? Inferior passing and ball-handling skills to Rondo's?
This is simply not true. Rondo and Nash are turning the ball over at approximately the same rate (2.9 for Nash, 2.7 for Rondo over approximately the same amount of minutes per game). Kidd is distinctly less turnover prone than both of them (1.9 in 36 mpg for career).
Of course it's true. Rondo has a better career assist/turnover ratio than either of them. It's also worth pointing out that Nash and Kidd both took better care of the ball as they got older. This is Rondo's 7th year in the league and his 5th straight year with an assist/turnover ratio better than 3/1. Kidd did that twice in his first 7 years, Nash did once (when he was 2 years older than Rondo is now).
Of course it isn't.
Using assist to turnover ratio assumes that the only productive indicator of a possession is an assist. It patently ignores the fact that Nash takes a shot more per game, and Kidd takes two shots more per game, on average.
edit: I did, in fact, look at the wrong column on Kidd's stat sheet, so that talk about 1.9 TO per game is not qutie true :)
Yeah, assist/to ratio is not the best indicator of how well a player protects the ball. This would mean if a 30ppg scorer with great efficiency who averages 2 assist and 1 TO per game would be worse at "protecting the ball" than your typical point guard.
The large majority of turnovers for all three players come from passes, not shooting the ball.
Certainly.
But the issue here is that if you choose to shoot instead of pass, that can still be "taking good care of the ball". You're excluding shots from the equation altogether, which is a problem.
Rondo's dead last in shots + assists to turnover ratio, and given that he takes the least shots of all three guys.
That's kind of silly, but if you want to go down that route then you'd need to explain why you consider missed shots to be "taking good care of the ball".
This is actually an interesting conversation on what would be a good metric for "protecting the ball".
Initial and very raw idea - What about: (assists + FGmade)/ (TO + FGmissed)
Gotta run, but will check back on this thread later to see if this evolves
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ASsists are fine. What annoys me is when he walking the ball up , dribbling away precious offensive secs , not pushing the ball up court , and then throws the ball away with a horrible pass. It seems for every hi -lite miracle play he makes , there is a high school level turn over. Watching him is an emotional rollercoaster.
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The large majority of turnovers for all three players come from passes, not shooting the ball.
Certainly.
But the issue here is that if you choose to shoot instead of pass, that can still be "taking good care of the ball". You're excluding shots from the equation altogether, which is a problem.
Rondo's dead last in shots + assists to turnover ratio, and given that he takes the least shots of all three guys.
You are straining at the gnat and swallowing the camel: that's a much more flawed metric than the one you are trying to minimize. More shots does not equal taking better care of the ball.
To be sure, Rondo passes sometimes when he should shoot, but it's a minor flaw that gets exaggerated with over-familiarity.
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I love Rajon and I love that he is a pass first point guard. But some of these passing plays are simply not intelligent plays and I didn't see from some of the most unselfish players of our time (Nash, Kidd, etc). I'm sure other intelligent players besides Rondo have questionable tendencies as well and I think it is right to be curious about all of them.
Rondo takes better care of the ball than Nash or Kidd did. If they didn't have the same "questionable tendencies" that Rondo did, why did they turn the ball over more often? Inferior passing and ball-handling skills to Rondo's?
By the way, while this thread has gotten a little side-tracked, your original comment involved passing and the poor decisions that Rondo makes (that Kidd and Nash don't). Rondo's been a starter for 6 years, so I compared Rondo and Nash and Kidd in terms of assist/bad pass ratio over that time. If you just take a simple average (add their assist/bad pass ratios and divide by 6) Nash is 3.9/1, Kidd is 4.4/1 and Rondo is 5/1.
I didn't total the assists and bad passes over those 6 years for more accuracy but Rondo's lead is large enough that he'd still be ahead in such a case. Also, in those 6 years, Rondo had the best assist/bad pass ratio 4 times and tied for best the other two years. So for all the talk about fga and the like, there's no doubt that Rondo passes the ball more efficiently than either Nash or Kidd.
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I love Rajon and I love that he is a pass first point guard. But some of these passing plays are simply not intelligent plays and I didn't see from some of the most unselfish players of our time (Nash, Kidd, etc). I'm sure other intelligent players besides Rondo have questionable tendencies as well and I think it is right to be curious about all of them.
Rondo takes better care of the ball than Nash or Kidd did. If they didn't have the same "questionable tendencies" that Rondo did, why did they turn the ball over more often? Inferior passing and ball-handling skills to Rondo's?
By the way, while this thread has gotten a little side-tracked, your original comment involved passing and the poor decisions that Rondo makes (that Kidd and Nash don't). Rondo's been a starter for 6 years, so I compared Rondo and Nash and Kidd in terms of assist/bad pass ratio over that time. If you just take a simple average (add their assist/bad pass ratios and divide by 6) Nash is 3.9/1, Kidd is 4.4/1 and Rondo is 5/1.
I didn't total the assists and bad passes over those 6 years for more accuracy but Rondo's lead is large enough that he'd still be ahead in such a case. Also, in those 6 years, Rondo had the best assist/bad pass ratio 4 times and tied for best the other two years. So for all the talk about fga and the like, there's no doubt that Rondo passes the ball more efficiently than either Nash or Kidd.
Your question to me was "if they didn't have the same questionable tendencies..." but if you look back to my post, I actually said that "I'm sure they DO have questionable tendencies". Why do they have to be the same? Every player has different tendencies. It would be a pretty boring game if they didn't. I'm just discussing Rondo's because I'm a celtics fan and watch a lot of celtics games.
So, to get to the essence of that particular tendency of Rondo's in question, there's a difference between turnovers by terrible decision and by not executing the pass.
In the NBA, most passing turnovers are committed by not executing the pass properly. Often times, windows to pass through for assisted baskets are very small and the pass has to be thrown very precisely. Trying to make a bounce pass to a back door cutting Avery Bradley on the baseline that goes past your defenders leg and under Avery's defender's arm while Avery is sprinting full speed that hits him right where his hands will be is very difficult. Often times the ball simply won't make it to that spot. Rondo is one of the BEST in the game (if not the best) at executing these passes. Sometimes, these turnovers will be characterized as "poor decision making" because it was a poor decision to make a pass into such a small window with only a certain % chance of being received. That's understandable and makes sense, but it was still a turnover because the pass was not thrown exactly where it needed to be. The majority of passing turnovers will fall into this category. Rondo is an amazingly precise passer which is why his assist/turnover ratio is so great and his efficiency is better than Nash or Kidd (I didn't look up and will take you at your word).
My gripe is his the other kind of turnover... the one where he just blatantly makes the wrong decision of pass vs. shoot. That is when he is has a perfectly open and makable shot (inside of 10 feet), but he turns the shot down to pass and that pass is turned over. That's the tendency of Rondo that makes me wonder what's going on. I think he's too intelligent of a player to think that's the basketball play that will result in the best outcome in those situations.
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Rondo is the most selfish player in the NBA. All he thinks about is getting other people the ball. If we can't trade him, we should cut him. Bradley is coming back from injury and even though he's not a traditional PG, anything beats a pass happy Rondo. Rondo's assists aren't starting to be a problem, they've already cost us 5 titles in 3 years.
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Rondo is the most selfish player in the NBA. All he thinks about is getting other people the ball. If we can't trade him, we should cut him. Bradley is coming back from injury and even though he's not a traditional PG, anything beats a pass happy Rondo. Rondo's assists aren't starting to be a problem, they've already cost us 5 titles in 3 years.
5 titles in 3 years huh? why stop at 5? why not say 10?
Funny, some cb posters think its unthinkable to have any concern related to rondo's passing too much. NBA fans and the media were all over lebron for passing up shots at the end of games a few years ago (the pass to donyell marshall particularly comes to mind). Yet lebron was well defended and marshall was wide open on that play... and lebron got criticized for that play. Yet when someone calls to question rondo passing up wide open shots to give it to teammates who are already defended (and said passes end up being turnovers) posters here make it out to be utterly absurd.
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Rondo is the most selfish player in the NBA. All he thinks about is getting other people the ball. If we can't trade him, we should cut him. Bradley is coming back from injury and even though he's not a traditional PG, anything beats a pass happy Rondo. Rondo's assists aren't starting to be a problem, they've already cost us 5 titles in 3 years
Wat?
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Rondo is the most selfish player in the NBA. All he thinks about is getting other people the ball. If we can't trade him, we should cut him. Bradley is coming back from injury and even though he's not a traditional PG, anything beats a pass happy Rondo. Rondo's assists aren't starting to be a problem, they've already cost us 5 titles in 3 years.
;D
Rondo definitely keeps an eye on (and for) his own numbers, and since he's our PG we key in on his deficiencies rather than enjoying his style.
That said, when you watch 70 or more Celtics games a season, there are definitely times when he doesn't play up to the bar that we set for him.
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I love Rajon and I love that he is a pass first point guard. But some of these passing plays are simply not intelligent plays and I didn't see from some of the most unselfish players of our time (Nash, Kidd, etc). I'm sure other intelligent players besides Rondo have questionable tendencies as well and I think it is right to be curious about all of them.
Rondo takes better care of the ball than Nash or Kidd did. If they didn't have the same "questionable tendencies" that Rondo did, why did they turn the ball over more often? Inferior passing and ball-handling skills to Rondo's?
By the way, while this thread has gotten a little side-tracked, your original comment involved passing and the poor decisions that Rondo makes (that Kidd and Nash don't). Rondo's been a starter for 6 years, so I compared Rondo and Nash and Kidd in terms of assist/bad pass ratio over that time. If you just take a simple average (add their assist/bad pass ratios and divide by 6) Nash is 3.9/1, Kidd is 4.4/1 and Rondo is 5/1.
I didn't total the assists and bad passes over those 6 years for more accuracy but Rondo's lead is large enough that he'd still be ahead in such a case. Also, in those 6 years, Rondo had the best assist/bad pass ratio 4 times and tied for best the other two years. So for all the talk about fga and the like, there's no doubt that Rondo passes the ball more efficiently than either Nash or Kidd.
Your question to me was "if they didn't have the same questionable tendencies..." but if you look back to my post, I actually said that "I'm sure they DO have questionable tendencies". Why do they have to be the same? Every player has different tendencies. It would be a pretty boring game if they didn't. I'm just discussing Rondo's because I'm a celtics fan and watch a lot of celtics games.
So, to get to the essence of that particular tendency of Rondo's in question, there's a difference between turnovers by terrible decision and by not executing the pass.
In the NBA, most passing turnovers are committed by not executing the pass properly. Often times, windows to pass through for assisted baskets are very small and the pass has to be thrown very precisely. Trying to make a bounce pass to a back door cutting Avery Bradley on the baseline that goes past your defenders leg and under Avery's defender's arm while Avery is sprinting full speed that hits him right where his hands will be is very difficult. Often times the ball simply won't make it to that spot. Rondo is one of the BEST in the game (if not the best) at executing these passes. Sometimes, these turnovers will be characterized as "poor decision making" because it was a poor decision to make a pass into such a small window with only a certain % chance of being received. That's understandable and makes sense, but it was still a turnover because the pass was not thrown exactly where it needed to be. The majority of passing turnovers will fall into this category. Rondo is an amazingly precise passer which is why his assist/turnover ratio is so great and his efficiency is better than Nash or Kidd (I didn't look up and will take you at your word).
My gripe is his the other kind of turnover... the one where he just blatantly makes the wrong decision of pass vs. shoot. That is when he is has a perfectly open and makable shot (inside of 10 feet), but he turns the shot down to pass and that pass is turned over. That's the tendency of Rondo that makes me wonder what's going on. I think he's too intelligent of a player to think that's the basketball play that will result in the best outcome in those situations.
Rondo makes a number of difficult passes a game and connects on most of them. He might attempt, from your example, 6 of those seeing-eye bounce passes to Avery on cuts and end up with 2 turnovers and 4 layups. That doesn't mean that he made 4 good decisions and 2 bad ones, it means he made 6 good decisions and we ended up with 8 points in 6 trips, very efficient scoring.