CelticsStrong
Around the League => Around the NBA => Topic started by: JSD on December 08, 2012, 01:26:12 AM
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And it has a lot of us around here eating crow, including myself.
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And it has a lot of us around here eating crow, including myself.
How so??
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And it has a lot of us around here eating crow, including myself.
How so??
- Memphis is stacked and has one of the best records in the NBA.
- He pulled off what ended up being a brilliant trade when he acquired Marc Gasol.
- Signed Zach Randolph when everyone else thought he was a cancer.
- Locked up the best perimeter defender in the nba for multiple years at $3 million.
- He drafted Mike Conley Jr.
I could go on...
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He was terrible in Boston. He had to go.
But this is why I usually like the idea of giving the top jobs (coach and GM) to guys with real experience. Guy who have had the chance to have made mistakes (or witness them) and learned how to avoid the same ones.
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Luck is such a huge factor in this.
Same with coaches. What hits one year could change in am instant.
Doc gets fired one year and now is looked at as one of the best in the league. Same with Wallace.
Just because one situation didn't work out doesn't mean you are doomed for the next 302 years
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Its tough for me to make him one of the best GMs when he couldn't talk his owner out of Thabeet. (or worse was on board with picking him). Then there is the whole trading Kevin Love and pieces for OJ Mayo.
As for the Pau trade again, still a bad trade even though it ended up working out 4 years later. When people talk about it being good/brillant I think of the Antoine Walker trade. It worked out eventually, but it wasn't in and of itself a "good" move.
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And it has a lot of us around here eating crow, including myself.
How so??
- Memphis is stacked and has one of the best records in the NBA.
- He pulled off what ended up being a brilliant trade when he acquired Marc Gasol.
- Signed Zach Randolph when everyone else thought he was a cancer.
- Locked up the best perimeter defender in the nba for multiple years at $3 million.
- He drafted Mike Conley Jr.
I could go on...
- he got lucky on the Gasol trade. Marc wasn't expected to be as good as he is. it's like saying Chicago was brilliant for drafting Jordan 3rd in the draft. sometimes you just get lucky which is what happened here.
- Zach was a cancer. They lucked out he got his act together. He always had the talent.
- TA was looking for PT and got it there. It's not a big or expensive deal and IMO it was a no brainer to offer it to him. I think Danny botched it when he let TA go.
- drafting Conley was a stretch at that spot and his development time showed it was a stretch. Wallace stuck with Conley, to his credit, but with a #4 pick that young, a GM should stick with them unless a great deal drops in their lap (which apparently didn't happen).
I'd need to see something actually brilliant before I even consider him a good GM.
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Just because his team is good now, doesn't mean he's a genius.
I mean look at a guy like Joe Dumars? Everyone thought he was a genius back in 2004, then look what happened.
Look at Elgin Baylor, put together a good Clippers team in 2006, even won Executive of the Year. I wouldn't want to call him a GM genius because he had 1 good team in about 20 years as a GM.
If you can consistently build good teams and see value where others don't, I’ll call you a genius. If you put together one good team, (especially over a long career) then I’m probably going to call it luck.
Anybody can win the lottery, even a broken clock is right twice a day, [fill in any other cliché statement about idiot’s being right here], etc.
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Its tough for me to make him one of the best GMs when he couldn't talk his owner out of Thabeet. (or worse was on board with picking him). Then there is the whole trading Kevin Love and pieces for OJ Mayo.
As for the Pau trade again, still a bad trade even though it ended up working out 4 years later. When people talk about it being good/brillant I think of the Antoine Walker trade. It worked out eventually, but it wasn't in and of itself a "good" move.
There's merit in all of this. Love for Mayo was particularly bad.
What I believe is underrated about the Gasol trade is: Pau's reputation as a pouter had begun to stick around the league. He was a major danger to a very fragile NBA franchise. Wallace needed to get the guy gone fast, and he managed to make out pretty well with the package he got over time.
There's a tendency to call it 'dumb luck' that Memphis did as well as it did in the deal. Marc Gasol was essentially the only named player in that deal for them, and he got pretty good pretty fast. I think Wallace deserved credit for seeing something there. He certainly was in the minority.
I'd also point out that Lionel Hollins turned out to be a really good hire.
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He is better then he was in Boston. He has put together a good team.
He isn't one of the best though. The best would take that team and make the last big trade to put them over the top. I still do not see a title winning team there.
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He isn't one of the best though. The best would take that team and make the last big trade to put them over the top. I still do not see a title winning team there.
I don't think Memphis needs a big trade.
Just some better fitting small pieces. A bench that better complements it's starters.
More shooters.
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He isn't one of the best though. The best would take that team and make the last big trade to put them over the top. I still do not see a title winning team there.
I don't think Memphis needs a big trade. Just some better fitting small pieces. More shooters.
They did look pretty scary when Wayne Ellington nailed 7 3s against Miami.
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He is better then he was in Boston. He has put together a good team.
He isn't one of the best though. The best would take that team and make the last big trade to put them over the top. I still do not see a title winning team there.
Ill go with this. You cant knock the guy for putting together a good team, but at the same time he isnt brilliant by any means.
You can play the luck or strategy card all day long but you could really say that about any GM.
If KG blows out his knee in year one and we dont win a championship is Danny looked at as making a bad trade because we gave up too many assets for an old now injured PF/C?
If Patrick O Brian turns into a double double guy was Ainge a genius for bringing him in? The list is endless.
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Love for Mayo and Thabeet were particularly bad moves. Gay contract was high.
I think he's got a Supersonics type team - fun team to watch, can make runs in playoffs, not good enough to win it all, except the Sonics team was probably a bit better peak.
He's done a good job, net positive as GM, but not one of the top3, which would be one of the best.
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The Thabeet pick can't be ranked with the Love trade.
Real world scenario: If you had questionable job security in your second go around as as NBA GM, and despite making a good case for an alternative, the guy who signs your check -- who happened to be a pretty grumpy owner at that -- insisted on another player, would you plant some sort of stake in the ground? Put some sort of ultimatum on it?
When the owner's pick fails, it's not your fault, but had Wallace's alternative pick been anything less than a star, he'd have been blamed begrudgingly from that day on, and likely fired considering the heat he was still under for the Gasol trade.
At least most of the guys behind Thabeet were wings or tweeners. Atlanta's selection of Marvin Williams at the 2 in 2005, for example, was a far less defensible move.
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He makes mistake just like any other GM, but I have to give Wallace credit. He knows how to manipulate the cap (and make his owner money), and how to find diamonds in the rough as well as anyone.
I think Wallace is very similar to Morey (which makes sense, since I think Morey may have learned a lot from Wallace coming up).
Neither of them has shown the ability to take a team over the top, but they both have shown the skills to collect assets and put together a quality team of guys who other teams undervalued.
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Pau Gasol averaged 21 pts, 10 reb, 3.5 ass, and 2 blocks on 54% shooting and 75FT% the previous season.
Marc Gasol was the 48th pick overall.
No GM knew what Marc Gasol would become.
He averaged 3 points and 1 rebound with FCBarcelona. If Chris Wallace was such a genius and knew Marc Gasol would be better than Conley, why didn't he select him in the first round and roll out a Gay-Gasol-Gasol front court?
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Pau Gasol averaged 21 pts, 10 reb, 3.5 ass, and 2 blocks on 54% shooting and 75FT% the previous season.
Marc Gasol was the 48th pick overall.
No GM knew what Marc Gasol would become.
He averaged 3 points and 1 rebound with FCBarcelona. If Chris Wallace was such a genius and knew Marc Gasol would be better than Conley, why didn't he select him in the first round and roll out a Gay-Gasol-Gasol front court?
That trade had a lot to do with freeing up cap space too. So what he did with that space should be considered.
Take the KG trade, where all the stars aligned perfectly, away from Ainge, and one could make the argument that Wallace is right there with him.
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Pau Gasol averaged 21 pts, 10 reb, 3.5 ass, and 2 blocks on 54% shooting and 75FT% the previous season.
Marc Gasol was the 48th pick overall.
No GM knew what Marc Gasol would become.
He averaged 3 points and 1 rebound with FCBarcelona. If Chris Wallace was such a genius and knew Marc Gasol would be better than Conley, why didn't he select him in the first round and roll out a Gay-Gasol-Gasol front court?
Um. At the time of the trade Marc Gasol was in the middle of a MVP season for the second best league in the world. He averaged 16.6 ppg (3rd) and 8.4 rpg (1st) in the league that year. I'm not sure his exact numbers at the time of the trade, but he was an all star and had been player of the week multiple times before the trade.
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Pau Gasol averaged 21 pts, 10 reb, 3.5 ass, and 2 blocks on 54% shooting and 75FT% the previous season.
Marc Gasol was the 48th pick overall.
No GM knew what Marc Gasol would become.
He averaged 3 points and 1 rebound with FCBarcelona. If Chris Wallace was such a genius and knew Marc Gasol would be better than Conley, why didn't he select him in the first round and roll out a Gay-Gasol-Gasol front court?
Um. At the time of the trade Marc Gasol was in the middle of a MVP season for the second best league in the world. He averaged 16.6 ppg (3rd) and 8.4 rpg (1st) in the league that year. I'm not sure his exact numbers at the time of the trade, but he was an all star and had been player of the week multiple times before the trade.
Marc Gasol was seen as a quality backup center in the NBA at the time of the trade. Too slow and unathletic to be a starter in the NBA.
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Pau Gasol averaged 21 pts, 10 reb, 3.5 ass, and 2 blocks on 54% shooting and 75FT% the previous season.
Marc Gasol was the 48th pick overall.
No GM knew what Marc Gasol would become.
He averaged 3 points and 1 rebound with FCBarcelona. If Chris Wallace was such a genius and knew Marc Gasol would be better than Conley, why didn't he select him in the first round and roll out a Gay-Gasol-Gasol front court?
Don't see the point, considering both Conley and Gasol are still on the team, which is one of the best in the NBA.
They also acquired Zach Randolph using the money and starting spot they were afforded by trading Pau.
I'd rather have Conley & Randolph over Pau Gasol, wouldn't you?
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Would Wallace have done better with ownership that was less allergic to paying the luxury tax? Or would he have gone crazy and done stupid stuff with too much freedom?
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Would Wallace have done better with ownership that was less allergic to paying the luxury tax? Or would he have gone crazy and done stupid stuff with too much freedom?
This is the problem with analyzing Wallace. His whole career has been spent working for owners who were more interested in the bottom line than winning championships. So, a huge part of his job description has been to make the owner money.
The reason he got the job in Memphis is because they saw how good of a job he did financially in Boston, by making the owner money...and also absorbing the backlash from the fans for it.
I think it would be interesting to see him working for an owner with deeper pockets, to see whether he could function in that type of environment, or if he is simply a master of the small market, in a Billy Bean sort of way.
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Pau Gasol averaged 21 pts, 10 reb, 3.5 ass, and 2 blocks on 54% shooting and 75FT% the previous season.
Marc Gasol was the 48th pick overall.
No GM knew what Marc Gasol would become.
He averaged 3 points and 1 rebound with FCBarcelona. If Chris Wallace was such a genius and knew Marc Gasol would be better than Conley, why didn't he select him in the first round and roll out a Gay-Gasol-Gasol front court?
Um. At the time of the trade Marc Gasol was in the middle of a MVP season for the second best league in the world. He averaged 16.6 ppg (3rd) and 8.4 rpg (1st) in the league that year. I'm not sure his exact numbers at the time of the trade, but he was an all star and had been player of the week multiple times before the trade.
Marc Gasol was seen as a quality backup center in the NBA at the time of the trade. Too slow and unathletic to be a starter in the NBA.
then he lost 50 pounds.
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Would Wallace have done better with ownership that was less allergic to paying the luxury tax? Or would he have gone crazy and done stupid stuff with too much freedom?
This is the problem with analyzing Wallace. His whole career has been spent working for owners who were more interested in the bottom line than winning championships. So, a huge part of his job description has been to make the owner money.
The reason he got the job in Memphis is because they saw how good of a job he did financially in Boston, by making the owner money...and also absorbing the backlash from the fans for it.
I think it would be interesting to see him working for an owner with deeper pockets, to see whether he could function in that type of environment, or if he is simply a master of the small market, in a Billy Bean sort of way.
Very true crappy ownership is the ultimate excuse and/or reason.
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Pau Gasol averaged 21 pts, 10 reb, 3.5 ass, and 2 blocks on 54% shooting and 75FT% the previous season.
Marc Gasol was the 48th pick overall.
No GM knew what Marc Gasol would become.
He averaged 3 points and 1 rebound with FCBarcelona. If Chris Wallace was such a genius and knew Marc Gasol would be better than Conley, why didn't he select him in the first round and roll out a Gay-Gasol-Gasol front court?
Um. At the time of the trade Marc Gasol was in the middle of a MVP season for the second best league in the world. He averaged 16.6 ppg (3rd) and 8.4 rpg (1st) in the league that year. I'm not sure his exact numbers at the time of the trade, but he was an all star and had been player of the week multiple times before the trade.
Marc Gasol was seen as a quality backup center in the NBA at the time of the trade. Too slow and unathletic to be a starter in the NBA.
then he lost 50 pounds.
yeah and he was like 22. There are numerous quotes around the time of the trade from Chris Wallace in which he has high praise for Marc. Wallace specifically asked for him in the trade and he wanted him. They then signed him to like a 3 yr, 10 million dollar deal, which is pretty good money for a European big man that had never played in the league. Sure Marc exceeded all expectations, but Memphis knew he could be a player in the league and it is why they wanted him.
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Would Wallace have done better with ownership that was less allergic to paying the luxury tax? Or would he have gone crazy and done stupid stuff with too much freedom?
This is the problem with analyzing Wallace. His whole career has been spent working for owners who were more interested in the bottom line than winning championships. So, a huge part of his job description has been to make the owner money.
The reason he got the job in Memphis is because they saw how good of a job he did financially in Boston, by making the owner money...and also absorbing the backlash from the fans for it.
I think it would be interesting to see him working for an owner with deeper pockets, to see whether he could function in that type of environment, or if he is simply a master of the small market, in a Billy Bean sort of way.
Very true crappy ownership is the ultimate excuse and/or reason.
And its pretty impossible to determine which it is in cases like this.
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Personally, I think Memphis is a real contender. To be honest, I'm not sure why people think they're NOT. A favorite? By no means. But they are a real contender.
One thing I really like about Memphis is that they haven't given in to the idiotic "small ball" meme that's such a fad these days. I really don't know why people think "small ball" is some formula to automatically winning a basketball game. It is pretty well established that playing small ups the offense at the expense of defense (see: New York Knicks, Miami Heat this year), and only really works if you have a versatile star like Lebron.
Memphis is big, and they are making all these small teams suffer on the other end of the court. Marc Gasol is playing like a superstar, Zach Randolph is having a career revival, Rudy Gay is good, TA and Conley have always been extremely underrated, and their bench has given them consistent 3-point shooting and energy.
The only mark against them, really, is that Gasol and Randolph's play might not be sustainable. That is, it is possible they are just on hot streaks that will come to an end. On the other hand, how often does a hot streak line up with such a hard schedule as the Grizzlies have had so far?
I think they are really going to surprise people in the playoffs. Barring injury or major regression by one of their core players, I see them making the WCF (and losing to the Thunder in a close series). Honestly, I think they can beat the Heat in a Finals series if they manage to get there ... they have a punishing inside game, which the Heat have never been able to cope with, defensively.