CelticsStrong
Celtics Basketball => Celtics Talk => Topic started by: ianboyextreme on December 06, 2012, 05:26:17 PM
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All these people keep mentioning how Kobe is "right up there" with Michael. They're wrong. Kobe is a great player and a top 10 player all time (not top 5), but he simply is not better thank Larry and Magic.
Magic came out and said Kobe is the best Laker of all time (do you really believe that Magic or are you just trying to appear humble?). Im not making this thread to bash Kobe because I dont even dislike the guy. Its just annoying how they bypass the two greats who were without a doubt more complete, and all around better players than Kobe is.
anyways for the record, here is my top 10
1. MJ
2. Russell
3. Wilt
4a. Bird
4b. Magic
6. Kareem
7. Kobe
8. Olajuwon
9. Shaq
10. Oscar Robertson
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I'm not really convinced he's even better than Dr. J.
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he has the BIGGEST head ever in the NBA
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Kobe is top 15. I don't even have him over SHAQ. Shaq was a more dominate player than kobe and he was the man on those lakers teams.
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I don't see why he'd be seen as having a better career than Duncan or Garnett. I'd also say that, while he's had a much longer career, he's not a better player than LeBron especially at the same stage of his career.
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I'm glad yet shocked to see most of you not buying into the kobe hype. Hes great but once you try to put him top 3 or top 5 or *gasp* the greatest to ever play the game, he quickly becomes one of the most overrated players of all time.
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Currently, the ELO rankings at b-r.com (http://www.basketball-reference.com/friv/ratings.cgi) have Bryant at 276th, behind players such as Metta World Peace and Rony Seikaly.
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Off the top of my head, I'd say he's one of the very best players to have spent their entire careers on one team.
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Based on superficial numbers, the media has a great case. but I dont think its as strong as the numbers might suggest.
Kobe is difficult to gauge. despite his MVP and 5 titles and memorable performances and scorig acumen, Kobe still played with Shaq, when Shaq was the best player in the NBA. Never was Bird, Magic, or MJ the second best player on their own team.
But it's not like they did it alone either. We all know Larry's supporting all-star casts, but MJ had Pippen and Rodman for 3 titles, Magic had what, 3 other HOFers for 3 of his titles?
But none of them had a player who was as dominant as Shaq. And, in an expanded league. I don't think it's wrong to say Kobe is in Magic and Larry's class, but to say with certainty that he's better, erroneous.
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Based on superficial numbers, the media has a great case. but I dont think its as strong as the numbers might suggest.
Kobe is difficult to gauge. despite his MVP and 5 titles and memorable performances and scorig acumen, Kobe still played with Shaq, when Shaq was the best player in the NBA. Never was Bird, Magic, or MJ the second best player on their own team.
But it's not like they did it alone either. We all know Larry's supporting all-star casts, but MJ had Pippen and Rodman for 3 titles, Magic had what, 3 other HOFers for 3 of his titles?
But none of them had a player who was as dominant as Shaq. And, in an expanded league. I don't think it's wrong to say Kobe is in Magic and Larry's class, but to say with certainty that he's better, erroneous.
people forget how dominant shaq was. his play alone made all those rule changes.
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I don't see how you can have Kobe over Hakeem. Hakeem, while fasting for Ramadan, destroyed David Robinson, reigning MVP, and Robinson said it was the best game he had ever seen. The dream mentored Kobe. The dream is better, considerably.
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I'm not sure if Kobe is even Top 10 for me, to be honest.
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funny seeing what Celtics fans say about one of the greatest Lakers of all time.
Someone suggested he's not as good as Dr J?
lawl. Green glasses.
Without Kobe, Shaq's not beating the Kings or Garnetts T wolves or those Spurs teams. It's a two way street. I doubt Jordan is winning many rings without Pippen.
Kobe will go down as one of the GOAT's.
He's amazing even if he is a POS Laker scumbag.
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I'm not sure if Kobe is even Top 10 for me, to be honest.
Agree; mine is
MJ
Bill
Wilt
4a bird
B magic
Hakeem
Kareem
Oscar rob
Shaq
Tim Duncan
11th Kobe
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But none of them had a player who was as dominant as Shaq. And, in an expanded league. I don't think it's wrong to say Kobe is in Magic and Larry's class, but to say with certainty that he's better, erroneous.
I'd say it's pretty wrong to say Kobe was in Bird and Magic's class. Did you watch the 80s? The main reason Bird didn't win 4 straight MVPs was the voters got tired of giving it to him. People spent much of his prime discussing whether he was the best ever, something *nobody* was saying about Kobe (outside of LA at least). And it's not just homerism, Magic was in Bird's class, Kobe's just as far from that level.
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But none of them had a player who was as dominant as Shaq. And, in an expanded league. I don't think it's wrong to say Kobe is in Magic and Larry's class, but to say with certainty that he's better, erroneous.
I'd say it's pretty wrong to say Kobe was in Bird and Magic's class. Did you watch the 80s? The main reason Bird didn't win 4 straight MVPs was the voters got tired of giving it to him. People spent much of his prime discussing whether he was the best ever, something *nobody* was saying about Kobe (outside of LA at least). And it's not just homerism, Magic was in Bird's class, Kobe's just as far from that level.
People get so caught up in anointing Kobe the successor to MJ that they forget that Kobe doesn't do nearly as many things to help his team win as MJ did, or a number of other players who have been among the best to ever play the game.
MJ, Larry, Magic, Wilt, Kareem, Shaq, Duncan, Hakeem -- all did a lot more than just take a bunch of shots. And I'd take any of them in their prime over Kobe in his prime.
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But none of them had a player who was as dominant as Shaq. And, in an expanded league. I don't think it's wrong to say Kobe is in Magic and Larry's class, but to say with certainty that he's better, erroneous.
I'd say it's pretty wrong to say Kobe was in Bird and Magic's class. Did you watch the 80s? The main reason Bird didn't win 4 straight MVPs was the voters got tired of giving it to him. People spent much of his prime discussing whether he was the best ever, something *nobody* was saying about Kobe (outside of LA at least). And it's not just homerism, Magic was in Bird's class, Kobe's just as far from that level.
People get so caught up in anointing Kobe the successor to MJ that they forget that Kobe doesn't do nearly as many things to help his team win as MJ did, or a number of other players who have been among the best to ever play the game.
MJ, Larry, Magic, Wilt, Kareem, Shaq, Duncan, Hakeem -- all did a lot more than just take a bunch of shots. And I'd take any of them in their prime over Kobe in his prime.
Same here
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If by "media" you mean
(http://aram.dcmembers.com/wp-content/uploads/images/bspn.jpg)
...you should all just let it go ;)
(And yes, I post links to ESPN stuff too - luckily they don't do all bad articles every day.)
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Mike and Mike listed their top 5 (in no particular order)
Russ
Wilt
MJ
Kareem
Magic
Not seeing Kobe in the top 5 on their list. Just curious who this media is that puts Kobe in the top 5 and ahead of Bird and Magic.
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He's one of the greatest scorers that ever lived, I hate myself for saying this (Since I can't stand Kobe)
But as far as every other attribute in a basketball player, he barely makes the top 30
To call him the greatest NBA player is what makes him overrated
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he has the BIGGEST head ever in the NBA
LeBron?
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one of the greatest scorers for sure. very good defender when he's motivated. not much else. ball hog, passes only when he has to, lousy teammate.
I'd take a lot of players in their prime over him if I was drafting a team from all the players ever.
He's nowhere close to Bird or Magic. Hell, he's not even close to being the best Laker ever. He wouldn't crack the starting Laker guard rotation which to me would be Magic and West.
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All these people keep mentioning how Kobe is "right up there" with Michael. They're wrong. Kobe is a great player and a top 10 player all time (not top 5), but he simply is not better thank Larry and Magic.
Agreed 100%.
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I caught a part of espn first take yesterday and they were outright mocking Kevin durant for saying Larry bird is a player he likes, and wants to be/play like and enjoys watching old film on.....I was generally embarrassed and was impressed by durants quote and respect for a legend many people disregard these days. Smh even baffled why he wouldn't want to model after Kobe. ::) 8) .
That said I'm not sure anyone thinks hes better than magic
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Jordan
Magic
Bird
O'Neal
James
Olajouwan
Garnett
Duncan
Bryant
K. Malone
That's my list (off the top of my head) of the greatest players I've seen play in their prime (since the early '80)s. I have Bryant towards the bottom of the top ten of "modern" players.
Once you start adding in the old timers, Kobe would be lucky to make the top 20.
There's no shame in that. There have been a lot of extraordinary basketball players to play in the NBA. Bryant's one of them.
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I'm not a big stats guy but in this case, they're as clear as can be. Not only are Jordan's overall stats significantly better than Kobe's, but I believe his best seasons in every category are significantly better than the equivalent for Kobe.
If you're talking all time great scorers, Kobe would have to rank among the best. But his history of being such a bad teammate and team leader keeps him out of the best overall discussion all by itself.
Mike
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one of the greatest scorers for sure. very good defender when he's motivated. not much else. ball hog, passes only when he has to, lousy teammate.
I'd take a lot of players in their prime over him if I was drafting a team from all the players ever.
He's nowhere close to Bird or Magic. Hell, he's not even close to being the best Laker ever. He wouldn't crack the starting Laker guard rotation which to me would be Magic and West.
that says it all right there
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Kobe is difficult to gauge. despite his MVP and 5 titles and memorable performances and scorig acumen, Kobe still played with Shaq, when Shaq was the best player in the NBA. Never was Bird, Magic, or MJ the second best player on their own team.
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar disagrees with this statement.
Sure the '87 and '88 rings were all Magic.
But '80, '82, and '85 you can argue it was Kareem's team. (Magic get's credit for that 1 game in the '80 Finals where he played Center and Kareem was out, but Kareem averaged 32ppg/12rpg/4bpg/3apg/1spg in the playoffs that year and was league MVP).
Pretty similar to Kobe I think (as in first 3 rings it's Shaq team - although Kobe was clearly on his way to taking over, next 2 rings it was Kobe's team. 3 Finals MVP's for Magic to 2 for Kobe isn't that different). Just saying the Lakers were Kareem's team for the first half of the 80's.
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But none of them had a player who was as dominant as Shaq. And, in an expanded league. I don't think it's wrong to say Kobe is in Magic and Larry's class, but to say with certainty that he's better, erroneous.
I'd say it's pretty wrong to say Kobe was in Bird and Magic's class. Did you watch the 80s? The main reason Bird didn't win 4 straight MVPs was the voters got tired of giving it to him. People spent much of his prime discussing whether he was the best ever, something *nobody* was saying about Kobe (outside of LA at least). And it's not just homerism, Magic was in Bird's class, Kobe's just as far from that level.
As far as what?
But anyways, longevity and results have to matter. Kobe has 5 titles, 3 of which he was the best player on the floor, and is 6th all time in points scored. While I would state that both Magic and Larry had higher 'peaks', Kobe's career matches up nicely.
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Mike and Mike listed their top 5 (in no particular order)
Russ
Wilt
MJ
Kareem
Magic
Not seeing Kobe in the top 5 on their list. Just curious who this media is that puts Kobe in the top 5 and ahead of Bird and Magic.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/awards/simmons_pyramid.html
Well Bill Simmons had Magic #4, Larry #5, and Kobe #8 in his Book of Basketball (Oct 2009). Kobe's added a ring and 3 more 1st Team All-NBA since. I could see Kobe moving up a few notches in Simmons list now.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/awards/slam_500_greatest.html
And SLAM Magazine had Larry #9 and Kobe #10 in the SLAM 500 (Feb 2011). Just a couple of more 1st Team All-NBA selections for Kobe since. Not enough to get a big jump here I don't think.
Of course all this is subjective (and these lists are a couple of years old), but it's hard to judge active players. And a lot of people makes these statements loosely and could probably list 10 guys they'd consider Top 5 all time.
Unfortunately I think if the Lakers get another title or two (possible with the team on paper, not by looking at them now), a lot of the media will have him in that Top 5 all time spot a little above Bird, probably flip flopping with Magic from list to list. If his career ended today, he's still beneath them IMO, if he has a couple of more good years I can see a lot of the media having him above them.
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What is the criteria for the player rankings?
Career accomplishments?
Pure basketball skills?
Freak athleticism?
I really don't think you can compare players from different eras because the game is different.
The 3 point line changes stats.
The defensive shift and slow down game changes game style/tempo and impact statistics as well.
Can't forget team expansion and (star) player dilution either.
I have my own rankings, but they differ completely because of criteria and context.
For example: Modern Era is defined as pre-ABA merger
Bill Russell is #1 Ranked (when you factor pre-modern era and including career accomplishments)
And, or
Wilt Chamberlain is #1 Ranked (pre-modern era, career accomplishments not heavily weighted)
I have Larry Bird as #1 in the modern era just based on pure basketball-ness.
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Mike and Mike listed their top 5 (in no particular order)
Russ
Wilt
MJ
Kareem
Magic
Not seeing Kobe in the top 5 on their list. Just curious who this media is that puts Kobe in the top 5 and ahead of Bird and Magic.
And SLAM Magazine had Larry #9 and Kobe #10 in the SLAM 500 (Feb 2011). Just a couple of more 1st Team All-NBA selections for Kobe since. Not enough to get a big jump here I don't think.
by the way, I do NOT endorse SLAM magazine. ;)
IMHO, top 5 all time (in no particular order) are
Russell, Wilt, MJ, Bird, Magic. period. anyone deviating from that loses any credibility with me. I could understand making an argument for the big O ahead of Magic but I wouldn't buy into it.
Bird at #9 -- pure ignorance.
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I think a good way to approach is to suppose you are starting a team from scratch. What player would rather start a team with?
In the modern era it has to be MJ first, then I think you would see far more people picking Kareem, Bird and Magic than Kobe. I think Kobe would be on par with Shaq, Duncan, and Olajuwon. Not sure where Lebron fits, it's too early to tell.
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But none of them had a player who was as dominant as Shaq. And, in an expanded league. I don't think it's wrong to say Kobe is in Magic and Larry's class, but to say with certainty that he's better, erroneous.
I'd say it's pretty wrong to say Kobe was in Bird and Magic's class. Did you watch the 80s? The main reason Bird didn't win 4 straight MVPs was the voters got tired of giving it to him. People spent much of his prime discussing whether he was the best ever, something *nobody* was saying about Kobe (outside of LA at least). And it's not just homerism, Magic was in Bird's class, Kobe's just as far from that level.
As far as what?
But anyways, longevity and results have to matter. Kobe has 5 titles, 3 of which he was the best player on the floor, and is 6th all time in points scored. While I would state that both Magic and Larry had higher 'peaks', Kobe's career matches up nicely.
Higher 'peaks' = significantly better for all of the healthy years in their primes. Kobe's had a longer career, I agree, but Bird and Magic had enough healthy years and accomplished enough in those years to demonstrate that they were clearly better players than Kobe.
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Mike and Mike listed their top 5 (in no particular order)
Russ
Wilt
MJ
Kareem
Magic
Not seeing Kobe in the top 5 on their list. Just curious who this media is that puts Kobe in the top 5 and ahead of Bird and Magic.
And SLAM Magazine had Larry #9 and Kobe #10 in the SLAM 500 (Feb 2011). Just a couple of more 1st Team All-NBA selections for Kobe since. Not enough to get a big jump here I don't think.
by the way, I do NOT endorse SLAM magazine. ;)
IMHO, top 5 all time (in no particular order) are
Russell, Wilt, MJ, Bird, Magic. period. anyone deviating from that loses any credibility with me. I could understand making an argument for the big O ahead of Magic but I wouldn't buy into it.
Bird at #9 -- pure ignorance.
I agree 100percent. Kobe is an all time great but in no way shape or form is he in these guys leagues. He got to where he is by jacking up a TON of shots and missing a TON of them, FACT.
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The media is obsessed with whatever is NEW.
Kobe just joined an elite club, and he still sells jerseys, so the media labels him whatever they want in order to continue writing/selling stories.
They can't sell stories about Bird and Magic and Russell. They're old and retired.
At least this Kobe nonsense dragged the media away from "LeBron is the best player ever" for one week.
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Currently, the ELO rankings at b-r.com (http://www.basketball-reference.com/friv/ratings.cgi) have Bryant at 276th, behind players such as Metta World Peace and Rony Seikaly.
It also has Jason Kidd above Magic.
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If Bird had played alongside Shaq I'm fairly certain they would've won more titles than Kobe did with Shaq.
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I think a good way to approach is to suppose you are starting a team from scratch. What player would rather start a team with?
In the modern era it has to be MJ first, then I think you would see far more people picking Kareem, Bird and Magic than Kobe. I think Kobe would be on par with Shaq, Duncan, and Olajuwon. Not sure where Lebron fits, it's too early to tell.
http://forums.celticsblog.com/index.php?topic=56175.0 (http://forums.celticsblog.com/index.php?topic=56175.0)Here was the historical draft, which includes only players entering the league in the lottery era (1985 or later). You only had to use one season so it wasn't like you were picking careers so keep that in mind. I still think it is probably a pretty decent exercise to see where people rate. Some of the spots were skipped, but the picks in order were
Shaq
KG
Duncan
Lebron
Robinson
Dwight
Malone
Dirk
Kobe
Wade
Pippen
Ewing
Payton
Durant
Mutombo
And again you only use one year and not career, but I still think it gives a decent take on who you would take when starting a team and why you would take them.
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Kobe is difficult to gauge. despite his MVP and 5 titles and memorable performances and scorig acumen, Kobe still played with Shaq, when Shaq was the best player in the NBA. Never was Bird, Magic, or MJ the second best player on their own team.
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar disagrees with this statement.
Sure the '87 and '88 rings were all Magic.
But '80, '82, and '85 you can argue it was Kareem's team. (Magic get's credit for that 1 game in the '80 Finals where he played Center and Kareem was out, but Kareem averaged 32ppg/12rpg/4bpg/3apg/1spg in the playoffs that year and was league MVP).
Pretty similar to Kobe I think (as in first 3 rings it's Shaq team - although Kobe was clearly on his way to taking over, next 2 rings it was Kobe's team. 3 Finals MVP's for Magic to 2 for Kobe isn't that different). Just saying the Lakers were Kareem's team for the first half of the 80's.
I think it was only the first year or two that Kareem was better than Magic and frankly I think that was only because Magic got hurt in that second season. Kareem was still a terrific player but for my money Magic was better and more important to LA in those subsequent seasons.
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My top five would be = Russell, Kareem, Bird, Magic and Jordan.
Not sure who my next five would be. Probably Wilt, Oscar, Hakeem, Shaq and Duncan.
I would have Kobe in consideration for the next five after that. Along with guys like Moses Malone. Jerry West. Maybe Kevin Garnett.
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I don't see how you can have Kobe over Hakeem. Hakeem, while fasting for Ramadan, destroyed David Robinson, reigning MVP, and Robinson said it was the best game he had ever seen. The dream mentored Kobe. The dream is better, considerably.
Hakeem is one of my favorite players of all time and in a way is a 7 foot version of kobe- absurdly fundamentally sound scorer with similar game (i know Hakeem taught Kobe moves). I dunno, either one could be better.
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Mike and Mike listed their top 5 (in no particular order)
Russ
Wilt
MJ
Kareem
Magic
Not seeing Kobe in the top 5 on their list. Just curious who this media is that puts Kobe in the top 5 and ahead of Bird and Magic.
Stephen A Smith and Magic were the main guys I was thinking of with them annointing him "just behind Jordan". There were a few others too that i cant remember.
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I caught a part of espn first take yesterday and they were outright mocking Kevin durant for saying Larry bird is a player he likes, and wants to be/play like and enjoys watching old film on.....I was generally embarrassed and was impressed by durants quote and respect for a legend many people disregard these days. Smh even baffled why he wouldn't want to model after Kobe. ::) 8) .
That said I'm not sure anyone thinks hes better than magic
Man this is the other thing that i was disgusted by. Every basketball analyst fails to mention Larry when mentioning how Jordan was surpassing Magic. Like that was his only obstacle to being the best in the game. Are you kidding me? The Celtics are the most continually disrespected franchise in the league.
I mean on first take they were actually saying things like "Larry was a bad boy". Like that even needs saying? What are these guys smoking?
Every time the media compares someone to Larry Bird, hes white. Doesnt matter what his game is like, if he can shoot and hes white, hes like Larry Bird. Dirk can shoot? Oh hes like larry Bird. Kevin Love can shoot? Oh hes like Larry Bird. Even if thats the only part of their game that resembles Larry. They cant bear to compare a black player to Larry. I have though for a long time that Durant is the most like Larry since Larry and even he thinks it (he still has to be a way better defender, passer, and even rebounder). But the media doesnt feel comfortable comparing a black player to a white player.
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I caught a part of espn first take yesterday and they were outright mocking Kevin durant for saying Larry bird is a player he likes, and wants to be/play like and enjoys watching old film on.....I was generally embarrassed and was impressed by durants quote and respect for a legend many people disregard these days. Smh even baffled why he wouldn't want to model after Kobe. ::) 8) .
That said I'm not sure anyone thinks hes better than magic
Lol, yeah he said, "why not George Gervin?". Hmm, yeah why doesnt he want to be like a one dimensional scorer who never won a championship rather than a guy who did every thing that could ever be done on a basketball court better than almost everyone else who won several championships?
Not anything against Gervin, he was big time great, but between Larry and Gervin?
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I caught a part of espn first take yesterday and they were outright mocking Kevin durant for saying Larry bird is a player he likes, and wants to be/play like and enjoys watching old film on.....I was generally embarrassed and was impressed by durants quote and respect for a legend many people disregard these days. Smh even baffled why he wouldn't want to model after Kobe. ::) 8) .
That said I'm not sure anyone thinks hes better than magic
Man this is the other thing that i was disgusted by. Every basketball analyst fails to mention Larry when mentioning how Jordan was surpassing Magic. Like that was his only obstacle to being the best in the game. Are you kidding me? The Celtics are the most continually disrespected franchise in the league.
I mean on first take they were actually saying things like "Larry was a bad boy". Like that even needs saying? What are these guys smoking?
Every time the media compares someone to Larry Bird, hes white. Doesnt matter what his game is like, if he can shoot and hes white, hes like Larry Bird. Dirk can shoot? Oh hes like larry Bird. Kevin Love can shoot? Oh hes like Larry Bird. Even if thats the only part of their game that resembles Larry. They cant bear to compare a black player to Larry. I have though for a long time that Durant is the most like Larry since Larry and even he thinks it (he still has to be a way better defender, passer, and even rebounder). But the media doesnt feel comfortable comparing a black player to a white player.
the reality is by the time Jordan was ready to be in the discussion Bird and the Celtics were an afterthought. The Pistons and Lakers were the teams to beat, and those were the teams that Jordan had to get by when he was truly ready to do it. Bird's injuries made the Celtics less relevant at the very end of the 80's and the Celtics weren't a legit contender at all in the 90's. Sure if everything went right they would have had a shot, but they need everything to go their way to get through the Bulls, Pistons, and Lakers, and as we saw that just didn't happen.
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Kobe is a great player, but I do not understand how anyone can rank him above Shaq. Shaq in his prime was Dominant, and lead to 3 champs. Shaq earned another title with some help from Wade in his prime (help from refs). Kobe in his prime was not dominant, besides his 80 point game against toronto in the regular season. Kobe got 3 titles with the help of Shaq, and Kobe actually hit his prime when the lakers were very bad overall. Then kobe got a title in 2009 when the best team in the nba (celtics) had there best player injured (garnett), and then 2010 he barely won the title with a lot of help from Gasol who performed even better than kobe in the finals that year.
I never looked at Kobe as being dominant. The times he has been the best player in the nba, players like Durant, lebron, Pierce, Garnett, Duncan, were always right behind him (sometimes in front). When Shaq was dominant there was really no player close to affecting the game the way he did.
Kobe is great, Shaq was better.
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This starts to look a bit like RealGM general board... ;)
Whatever ESPN is saying must be wrong (ACF you got a TP), just because they act like basketball and the NBA were born when MJ started to win some playoff games. Then, you have the bias about current player, and so you have them talking Co-B Bryant into the top 10 or even top 5 all-time ranking. No way.
The GOAT is Bill Russell, by a lot. He changed the NCAA and he changed the NBA in his rookie season, and he has 11 rings. And not only that.
After him, I'd put Wilt because in terms of individual performance and dominance, he was the best. He didn't have more success just because of Bill Russell, that talks about Bill Russell's greatness and GOAT status.
Then you have MJ, Bird, Kareem and Magic. MJ won more than the other guys, but he had Stern, BSPN and Nike to pave his way. You put the other 3 in Jordan's position and they'd have win the same if not more.
Next tier, Mikan, Shaq, Hakeem, Duncan. All dominant bigmen, leading their teams to multiple titles.
Then you have Cousy, Hondo, Cowens, Isiah Thomas, Oscar Robertson, Doctor J, Baylor, Jerry West, and some other great players. You can put Co-B (and KG) here, and he'll be amongst the elite of the NBA. He doesn't belong higher, but I'll concede him the benefit of belonging here.
Following Shaq's lead wasn't that hard to do, even D-Wade could do it with some Stern help. And Pau was key for his other 2 titles, alongside KG's injury, Perk's injury and Joey Crawford et al. big performances.
Being the jerk Co-B is, and playing for the Fakers, that's being pretty generous.
Go Celtics!
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Based on superficial numbers, the media has a great case. but I dont think its as strong as the numbers might suggest.
Kobe is difficult to gauge. despite his MVP and 5 titles and memorable performances and scorig acumen, Kobe still played with Shaq, when Shaq was the best player in the NBA. Never was Bird, Magic, or MJ the second best player on their own team.
But it's not like they did it alone either. We all know Larry's supporting all-star casts, but MJ had Pippen and Rodman for 3 titles, Magic had what, 3 other HOFers for 3 of his titles?
But none of them had a player who was as dominant as Shaq. And, in an expanded league. I don't think it's wrong to say Kobe is in Magic and Larry's class, but to say with certainty that he's better, erroneous.
Wow..in that case, Hakeem was truly dominant.
Did he even have a HOFer on his HOU squads that he won back-back rings with? I know he had Kenny Smith, and he was a very good player, but I don't remember him being in the HOF.
Hakeem had Otis Thorpe, too...but besides a few ASGs, he's not in the HOF, either.
Hakeem Olajuwon was just dominant..he is one of the few Bigs that gets respect from Shaq.
There will never be another Hakeem.
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Your greatness can be measured by the ones you defeat to earn that greatness.
And for me, Kobe didn't have such an opposition in years to be considered in Larry and Magic's class.
He dominated his generation, but that's pretty much it. Legacy's aren't born out of nowhere.
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I'm biased, which everyone knows... BUT if Shaq isn't ahead of Kobe then I don't know what everyone was/are watching! If Shaq isn't top 5/10 then Kobe sure as heck isn't! Are we watching these guys or what??? 0.0
Someone needs to do a serious poll, who would you take in their primes, Shaq or Kobe? If Kobe can't beat Shaq in that regard then he isn't even top 10 much less better than Magic or Bird!
I can't even believe people were serious when saying this! I can't!
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The media ( and if it's media affiliated with the NBA in any way especially) usually promotes current players. I see it as marketing. No way today's guys were as good fundamentally or shooting wise as the eighty's guys and they could hand check back then, fight with impunity and hold jerseys. Athletically, they are better but skill wise, I just don't see it.
Rick Mahorn would leave Pau Gasol or guys of that ilk in a bloody pulp on the floor. McHale would be out of the league for the Rambis clothesline. Guys today are wimps who don't play hurt.
I think this is true outside of sports too. Guys today are a softer than guys from the past. I watch my son play and he is pretty old school but the majority of the guys he plays with are what I would call a wussy!
Kobe could not guard Magic but Magic could guard him. Kobe isn't as good as Jordan. Bird was a better all around player than Kobe especially shooting, leadership and rebounding. I would want Bird to take a shot with my life on the line over Kobe even to this day.
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Based on superficial numbers, the media has a great case. but I dont think its as strong as the numbers might suggest.
Kobe is difficult to gauge. despite his MVP and 5 titles and memorable performances and scorig acumen, Kobe still played with Shaq, when Shaq was the best player in the NBA. Never was Bird, Magic, or MJ the second best player on their own team.
But it's not like they did it alone either. We all know Larry's supporting all-star casts, but MJ had Pippen and Rodman for 3 titles, Magic had what, 3 other HOFers for 3 of his titles?
But none of them had a player who was as dominant as Shaq. And, in an expanded league. I don't think it's wrong to say Kobe is in Magic and Larry's class, but to say with certainty that he's better, erroneous.
Wow..in that case, Hakeem was truly dominant.
Did he even have a HOFer on his HOU squads that he won back-back rings with? I know he had Kenny Smith, and he was a very good player, but I don't remember him being in the HOF.
Hakeem had Otis Thorpe, too...but besides a few ASGs, he's not in the HOF, either.
Hakeem Olajuwon was just dominant..he is one of the few Bigs that gets respect from Shaq.
There will never be another Hakeem.
Drexler.
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I know it's debatable, but I consider Iverson to be among the all-time greats. Never once a little guy dominated that much. He brought the Sixers back to life, and he didn't have any All-Stars beside him for most of his career, yet he still made a push for the Finals, won MVP, led the league in scoring and in steals several times.
If he lasted longer in the league and practiced more, he would have been greater than Kobe.
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Based on superficial numbers, the media has a great case. but I dont think its as strong as the numbers might suggest.
Kobe is difficult to gauge. despite his MVP and 5 titles and memorable performances and scorig acumen, Kobe still played with Shaq, when Shaq was the best player in the NBA. Never was Bird, Magic, or MJ the second best player on their own team.
But it's not like they did it alone either. We all know Larry's supporting all-star casts, but MJ had Pippen and Rodman for 3 titles, Magic had what, 3 other HOFers for 3 of his titles?
But none of them had a player who was as dominant as Shaq. And, in an expanded league. I don't think it's wrong to say Kobe is in Magic and Larry's class, but to say with certainty that he's better, erroneous.
Wow..in that case, Hakeem was truly dominant.
Did he even have a HOFer on his HOU squads that he won back-back rings with? I know he had Kenny Smith, and he was a very good player, but I don't remember him being in the HOF.
Hakeem had Otis Thorpe, too...but besides a few ASGs, he's not in the HOF, either.
Hakeem Olajuwon was just dominant..he is one of the few Bigs that gets respect from Shaq.
There will never be another Hakeem.
Drexler.
Oh wow...how in the world did I miss THAT?
a big TP to you.
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I'm biased, which everyone knows... BUT if Shaq isn't ahead of Kobe then I don't know what everyone was/are watching! If Shaq isn't top 5/10 then Kobe sure as heck isn't! Are we watching these guys or what??? 0.0
Someone needs to do a serious poll, who would you take in their primes, Shaq or Kobe? If Kobe can't beat Shaq in that regard then he isn't even top 10 much less better than Magic or Bird!
I can't even believe people were serious when saying this! I can't!
I think it's a bit irrelevant. You always take the big man.
It's like asking if Kareem or Wilt would be picked over MJ or not. Of course, they would have been.
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I think my main reason for the big miss with Drexler was seeing Hakeem work his mojo back then.
All I remember from those Rockets days were those moves, lol.
Only other players that could hold a candle to this man was perhaps McHale, Duncan and arguably KG as far as bigs with various ways to score.
Hakeem went toe to toe with Shaq in his prime.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o5dQp-kXh4M
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rEQH5QRH60I
And I've never seen David Robinson man-handled like THIS:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hW4uXlRGAF0
Hakeem Olajuwon has got to be the most complete Big Man to ever play the game, no disrespect to Russell or Kareem.
He had Zero weaknesses.
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Bird was top 4 in MVP voting every year of his prime (79-88). Top 2 from 1981-1987. 4th was in his rookie year. Should have won the 81 and 87 MVPs. His competition in those years included Abdul Jabbar, Jordan Johnson, 3 guys usually put in the top 5-6 of all time, Moses Malone and Dr J who are what top 15?
Kobe doesn't compare.
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I think my main reason for the big miss with Drexler was seeing Hakeem work his mojo back then.
All I remember from those Rockets days were those moves, lol.
Only other players that could hold a candle to this man was perhaps McHale, Duncan and arguably KG as far as bigs with various ways to score.
Hakeem went toe to toe with Shaq in his prime.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o5dQp-kXh4M
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rEQH5QRH60I
And I've never seen David Robinson man-handled like THIS:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hW4uXlRGAF0
Hakeem Olajuwon has got to be the most complete Big Man to ever play the game, no disrespect to Russell or Kareem.
He had Zero weaknesses.
TP, this is what i was looking for.