CelticsStrong
Celtics Basketball => Celtics Talk => Topic started by: jdz101 on December 05, 2012, 11:53:22 PM
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I will start with a disclaimer: I like rondo and he is one of the better players in the league. He can also play excellent defense.
That said, right now Rondo's guard defense sucks something horrible. There is no other way to say it.
- He stands up straight, not even getting into a proper defensive position half the time.
- He gets a pretty feeble semi-screen set on him and instead of working to get over the screen he will immediately switch, putting the defense in a mismatch situation.
- Due to his poor stance, he doesn't cover penetration very well, either giving up an open layup or forcing the bigs/wings to help on the opposition point guard, opening up easy dunks or 3s for the opposition. (this was seen pretty clearly with ridnour and barea today.)
- He will let his guard breeze by him with the hope of slapping the ball away from behind, usually giving up further easy offense.
Ill elaborate to explain how important this is.
Opposition Point Guard Totals Against Rondo
Mario Chalmers - 8 Points (Above his average) [LOSS]
Brandon Jennings - 21 Points (Above his average) [LOSS]
AJ Price - 8 points (His average) [WIN]
AJ Price - 15 points (Double his average) [WIN]
Jrue Holiday - 21 points (Above his average) [LOSS]
Brandon Jennings - 4 points (Well below his average) [WIN]
Nate Robinson - 11 points (His average) [WIN]
Mo Williams - 14 points (His average) [WIN]
Jose Calderon - 10 points (His average) [WIN]
Brandon Knight - 6 points (Below his average) [LOSS]
Tony Parker - 26 points (Above his average) [LOSS]
Russell Westbrook - 26 points (Above his average) [WIN]
Jameer Nelson - 20 points (Above his average) [WIN]
Luke Ridnour - 11 points (His average) [WIN]
14 games rondo has played (not counting the brooklyn fight)
11 of these games the opposition point guards have scored their average points total or above.
Of the 5 losses in this sample, 4 times the opposition point guard have scored over their average.
To sum up, basically, Rondo needs to play better defense. When he plays lazy defense on his opposite number, it correlates pretty strongly to the celtics losing the basketball game. We are playing Jrue Holiday twice in the next two games. For the celtics to take these next two, rondo has to switch on.
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Correlation does not imply causation.
But yes, I wish he'd play better D because he totally can.
It's a vicious cycle though. Rondo saves energy on D to play 40 a game but the bad D he plays leads to him needing to play more minutes.
Hopefully Bradley's return inspires Rondo in addition to reducing the minutes Rondo needs to play.
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I agree. Rondo was bad on D tonight, and has been pretty average all year on D in my eyes. He lost his man on 2 or 3 straight possessions that was all just court awareness tonight.
I wish he would abandon the matador defensive approach for a more straight forward stay in between your man and the basket approach. Less penetration means fewer switches and better defense overall.
I think the reason we all harp on Rondo when he isn't playing stellar D is that we have seen him be so outstanding at times. More flip switching I guess. And I am in the 'Rondo is a top 2 point guard in the league' club.
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We know the drill with Rondo by now. He will give 100% effort on both sides in the playoffs. If that means he has to coast on D during the season, I'll take the trade.
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We know the drill with Rondo by now. He will give 100% effort on both sides in the playoffs. If that means he has to coast on D during the season, I'll take the trade.
That's not going to be good enough if we end up the 7th or 8th seed.
He needs to improve.
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The guy expends so much energy on offense for this team now that it only makes sense that it would show up on the defensive end.
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Rondo's been bad about going through screens from what I've seen. I don't really have a problem with his overall defense though.
As for your correlation, I don't think you've shown it exists. Mostly because the data you work with isn't really indicative of how well Rondo's been playing on defense. Quick example I remember Jameer going off on Barbosa and not Rondo, so I went and looked at the play by play.
Jameer scored 11 points on 4-5 shooting while Barbosa was in, his one miss was blocked by Lee. While Rondo was in he scored 9 points on 4-12 shooting with 1-1 fta (a foul he drew on Rondo)
That's just one example, I'm sure other games the majority of the points are scored when Rondo is on the opposing PG. My point is that just looking at the point totals of opposing point guards is a poor way to determine things.
http://www.82games.com/1213/1213BOS5.HTM
Opposing PGs don't pop out as what's killing us. Instead its basically been opposing PFs along with shaking production at SG.
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Rondo's been bad about going through screens from what I've seen. I don't really have a problem with his overall defense though.
As for your correlation, I don't think you've shown it exists. Mostly because the data you work with isn't really indicative of how well Rondo's been playing on defense. Quick example I remember Jameer going off on Barbosa and not Rondo, so I went and looked at the play by play.
Jameer scored 11 points on 4-5 shooting while Barbosa was in, his one miss was blocked by Lee. While Rondo was in he scored 9 points on 4-12 shooting with 1-1 fta (a foul he drew on Rondo)
That's just one example, I'm sure other games the majority of the points are scored when Rondo is on the opposing PG. My point is that just looking at the point totals of opposing point guards is a poor way to determine things.
http://www.82games.com/1213/1213BOS5.HTM
Opposing PGs don't pop out as what's killing us. Instead its basically been opposing PFs along with shaking production at SG.
Part of the problem with Rondo and PG's is not the production of the PGs per se, but that it forces our bigs to over-help to stop penetration or a layup.
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Rondo's been bad about going through screens from what I've seen. I don't really have a problem with his overall defense though.
As for your correlation, I don't think you've shown it exists. Mostly because the data you work with isn't really indicative of how well Rondo's been playing on defense. Quick example I remember Jameer going off on Barbosa and not Rondo, so I went and looked at the play by play.
Jameer scored 11 points on 4-5 shooting while Barbosa was in, his one miss was blocked by Lee. While Rondo was in he scored 9 points on 4-12 shooting with 1-1 fta (a foul he drew on Rondo)
That's just one example, I'm sure other games the majority of the points are scored when Rondo is on the opposing PG. My point is that just looking at the point totals of opposing point guards is a poor way to determine things.
http://www.82games.com/1213/1213BOS5.HTM
Opposing PGs don't pop out as what's killing us. Instead its basically been opposing PFs along with shaking production at SG.
Part of the problem with Rondo and PG's is not the production of the PGs per se, but that it forces our bigs to over-help to stop penetration or a layup.
Agreed. And that's particularly problematic when A) KG isn't on the floor, and B) you've got guys like Bass who aren't great help defenders.
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I prescribe a dose of "watch any other point guard play defense." Rondo does get tired and get beat occasionally, but you only remember the times when he gets beat and not the many many more times he doesn't. He's a fantastic defender.
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I wish he would abandon the matador defensive approach for a more straight forward stay in between your man and the basket approach. Less penetration means fewer switches and better defense overall.
This has been the defensive approach he has been guilty of on many cases not just this season, but throughout his career. It's very annoying to me b/c he can't get away with that against a lot of the top PGs in the game like Rose and Westbrook who seem to torch him. Granted, I understand that nobody can just shut these players down, but its inexcusable for a "first team NBA defender" (as many people claim) to routinely allow these players to score above their average.
He certainly has the ability and has shown that against the likes of Chris Paul and Deron Williams in recent matchups. He just needs to bring it consistently.
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Rondo's been bad about going through screens from what I've seen. I don't really have a problem with his overall defense though.
As for your correlation, I don't think you've shown it exists. Mostly because the data you work with isn't really indicative of how well Rondo's been playing on defense. Quick example I remember Jameer going off on Barbosa and not Rondo, so I went and looked at the play by play.
Jameer scored 11 points on 4-5 shooting while Barbosa was in, his one miss was blocked by Lee. While Rondo was in he scored 9 points on 4-12 shooting with 1-1 fta (a foul he drew on Rondo)
That's just one example, I'm sure other games the majority of the points are scored when Rondo is on the opposing PG. My point is that just looking at the point totals of opposing point guards is a poor way to determine things.
http://www.82games.com/1213/1213BOS5.HTM
Opposing PGs don't pop out as what's killing us. Instead its basically been opposing PFs along with shaking production at SG.
What's really concerning is noticing that opposing centers put up a higher PER than ours. I guess KG only playing 29mpg has something to do with that. But still concerning that all the positives that KG bring are basically undone when KG comes out.
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I prescribe a dose of "watch any other point guard play defense." Rondo does get tired and get beat occasionally, but you only remember the times when he gets beat and not the many many more times he doesn't. He's a fantastic defender.
He hasnt been fantastic this year. I've watched every single game he's played and many other games other point guards have and they dont give away anywhere near as much penetration on D as rondo does.
As for your correlation, I don't think you've shown it exists.
Jameer scored 11 points on 4-5 shooting while Barbosa was in, his one miss was blocked by Lee. While Rondo was in he scored 9 points on 4-12 shooting with 1-1 fta (a foul he drew on Rondo)
That's just one example, I'm sure other games the majority of the points are scored when Rondo is on the opposing PG. My point is that just looking at the point totals of opposing point guards is a poor way to determine things.
http://www.82games.com/1213/1213BOS5.HTM
Opposing PGs don't pop out as what's killing us. Instead its basically been opposing PFs along with shaking production at SG.
A good point. I didnt want to spend hours and hours on analysis. :P
To address your point though, you dig deeper into jrue holiday's stats in the game against philly and not only does he have 21 points but he also has 14 assists....Both he and rondo spent most of the time on the court, 41 minutes each.
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We know the drill with Rondo by now. He will give 100% effort on both sides in the playoffs. If that means he has to coast on D during the season, I'll take the trade.
That's not going to be good enough if we end up the 7th or 8th seed.
He needs to improve.
Exactly, he's the first line of defense. His coasting is costing the team wins because of the ripple effect. His teammates are being forced to pickup fouls that shouldn't happen.
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this is why Bradley is such a good fit with rondo. I'm bored with rondos defense sucks threads.
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The top 5 points in the League have their way with him. Never was a good defender but liked to gamble on defense deceiving those who thought he could play defense. The likes of Dennis Johnson would have won 2 Rings with the Big 3. Rondo is overrated but very good. His big problem is he's too fast for the Team he represents.
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The top 5 points in the League have their way with him. Never was a good defender but liked to gamble on defense deceiving those who thought he could play defense. The likes of Dennis Johnson would have won 2 Rings with the Big 3. Rondo is overrated but very good. His big problem is he's too fast for the Team he represents.
Lol...rondo has his way with any pg he wants...the Dennis Johnson would have won 2 rings is absurd...we would've won 3 if kg never gets hurt and isn't hobbling and getting dominated by gasol in the 2009 finals. The team around rondo is too slow and his speed is a game changer. Very good but overrated...what does that even mean
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this is why Bradley is such a good fit with rondo. I'm bored with rondos defense sucks threads.
BAradley will be locking down elite pg's and smaller two guards while Rondo plays the passing lanes with those long arms and huge hands for steals and immediate fast beak opportunities .
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Rondo's been bad about going through screens from what I've seen. I don't really have a problem with his overall defense though.
As for your correlation, I don't think you've shown it exists. Mostly because the data you work with isn't really indicative of how well Rondo's been playing on defense. Quick example I remember Jameer going off on Barbosa and not Rondo, so I went and looked at the play by play.
Jameer scored 11 points on 4-5 shooting while Barbosa was in, his one miss was blocked by Lee. While Rondo was in he scored 9 points on 4-12 shooting with 1-1 fta (a foul he drew on Rondo)
That's just one example, I'm sure other games the majority of the points are scored when Rondo is on the opposing PG. My point is that just looking at the point totals of opposing point guards is a poor way to determine things.
http://www.82games.com/1213/1213BOS5.HTM
Opposing PGs don't pop out as what's killing us. Instead its basically been opposing PFs along with shaking production at SG.
What's really concerning is noticing that opposing centers put up a higher PER than ours. I guess KG only playing 29mpg has something to do with that. But still concerning that all the positives that KG bring are basically undone when KG comes out.
So does that mean other Centers do well agains't the Celtics because the Celtics bigs have to switch off their men to help stop the point guard that Rondo allowed to drive to the hoop? Could that also be part of the reason that they give up so many offensive rebounds, again because they have to leave their man making it rather difficult to box them out. I'm not saying to sole reason, but partly?
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I agree with the main posting 100%. The writer nailed everything that Rondo is doing poorly.
Plain and simple, Rondo has been LAZY.
And, don't start with that "conserving energy" nonsense. It doesn't take energy to put yourself in a defensive stance. That alone would improve Rondo's D tremendously.
By far the worst thing Rondo is doing is gambling for steals from behind. He lets his man get past him so he can swat at the ball, but he needs to realize that this gamble is what is leading to the breakdown of the interior defense.
STAY IN FRONT OF YOUR MAN, RONDO!
I mentioned about a week ago that when Bradley returns he'll be guarding the opposing PG, except in cases like Miami, where he'll be on Wade. This will allow Rondo to switch over to guarding SGs, taking him off the ball.
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I'm sure that by season's end Rondo will once again be voted to one of the all NBA defensive teams by the league's coaches. I guess NBA coaches don't watch the games as closely or with as much understanding of the game as many of the posters here on Celtics Blog.
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This is an undeniable fact. Rondo plays lazy defense. Especially in the regular season. I have an 8th grade son who plays point and have sat there and rewound tape time and time again showing him Rondo defending as an example of what NOT to do. No one can argue that he uses his unreal speed to keep his feet in front of his man. No one can argue he gives 100% to get through the pick. No one can argue he doesn't drift away from his man usually losing sight of them. He has the physical tools to do all of these against almost every player in the game. He chooses to gamble in passing lanes, try and poke the ball out from behind, and hope his team helps recover from his poor effort.
That being said, he definitely increases his level of play during the playoffs. This is likely what frustrates fans the most. He gets paid 134k each game in the regular season to do a job. Why he chooses some nights to give 100% and some nights not to is beyond me. If he did, he'd be hands down the best PG in the game. Instead he is just in the running. I definitely have left the idea of trading him because you'd never get equal value for him, however I sure wish the guy had as much pride in his effort as an NBA player ought to. I don't expect 82 straight games of 100%, however lazy defense should be the exception, not the usual.
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Rondo's effort really irritates me sometimes. The OP is spot-on, and I'll be burning incense, sacrificing chickens, and helping old ladies across the street in the hopes that AB can cover up for Rondo's lazy regular season defense when he comes back.
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Rondo's effort really irritates me sometimes. The OP is spot-on, and I'll be burning incense, sacrificing chickens, and helping old ladies across the street in the hopes that AB can cover up for Rondo's lazy regular season defense when he comes back.
TP. This is not only funny, but a good point. Just like in Rec league ball with kids, the coach is going to put his best defender on their ball handler. AB will be the one putting pressure on their PG and Rondo will be guarding the two where he can more easily play his gambling lane wandering defense. Then we will be complaining on here that his man knocked down 3 after 3 because he moved to an open spot when Rondo's back was turned to him! ;D
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This is an undeniable fact. Rondo plays lazy defense. Especially in the regular season. I have an 8th grade son who plays point and have sat there and rewound tape time and time again showing him Rondo defending as an example of what NOT to do. No one can argue that he uses his unreal speed to keep his feet in front of his man. No one can argue he gives 100% to get through the pick. No one can argue he doesn't drift away from his man usually losing sight of them. He has the physical tools to do all of these against almost every player in the game. He chooses to gamble in passing lanes, try and poke the ball out from behind, and hope his team helps recover from his poor effort.
That being said, he definitely increases his level of play during the playoffs. This is likely what frustrates fans the most. He gets paid 134k each game in the regular season to do a job. Why he chooses some nights to give 100% and some nights not to is beyond me. If he did, he'd be hands down the best PG in the game. Instead he is just in the running. I definitely have left the idea of trading him because you'd never get equal value for him, however I sure wish the guy had as much pride in his effort as an NBA player ought to. I don't expect 82 straight games of 100%, however lazy defense should be the exception, not the usual.
You don't know the difference between an "undeniable fact" and an opinion. Don't worry, it's a common problem. You're not alone.
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This is an undeniable fact. Rondo plays lazy defense. Especially in the regular season. I have an 8th grade son who plays point and have sat there and rewound tape time and time again showing him Rondo defending as an example of what NOT to do. No one can argue that he uses his unreal speed to keep his feet in front of his man. No one can argue he gives 100% to get through the pick. No one can argue he doesn't drift away from his man usually losing sight of them. He has the physical tools to do all of these against almost every player in the game. He chooses to gamble in passing lanes, try and poke the ball out from behind, and hope his team helps recover from his poor effort.
While Rondo's defense hasn't been his best it's still been pretty good. But I think much of the criticism of Rondo's defense is based on his not defending in the style posters personally wish that he did. I always see things like "He chooses to gamble in passing lanes" as if he's not supposed to. He creates a lot of havoc for opposing teams when he "gambles in the passing lanes". I don't think it's the case that Doc tells Rondo to stick to his man like glue and not cheat into the passing lanes, but a lot of people think that how well he sticks to his man is the only way to measure how well he defends.
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Tell this to the All NBA first defensive award committee.
Ok yes hes lazy, but not in the national spotlight. on National broadcast and in the playoffs he steps it up. Last night was pretty pathetic though, Barea had two wide open layups back to back and Rondo was nowhere in sight.
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While Rondo's defense hasn't been his best it's still been pretty good. But I think much of the criticism of Rondo's defense is based on his not defending in the style posters personally wish that he did. I always see things like "He chooses to gamble in passing lanes" as if he's not supposed to. He creates a lot of havoc for opposing teams when he "gambles in the passing lanes". I don't think it's the case that Doc tells Rondo to stick to his man like glue and not cheat into the passing lanes, but a lot of people think that how well he sticks to his man is the only way to measure how well he defends.
Seriously, if every player on the team had his defense scrutinized the way Rondo does, fans would be sorely disappointed and surprised at some of the lapses - including KG's. It happens. Nobody's perfect. Rondo's defense is very good to great overall.
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Tell this to the All NBA first defensive award committee.
Ok yes hes lazy, but not in the national spotlight. on National broadcast and in the playoffs he steps it up. Last night was pretty pathetic though, Barea had two wide open layups back to back and Rondo was nowhere in sight.
Barea was coming off of picks and going directly to the hoop. There's no chance any point guard is going to come off the pick behind Barea and end up in front of him in the time it takes him to get from the three point line to the hoop.
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Tell this to the All NBA first defensive award committee.
Ok yes hes lazy, but not in the national spotlight. on National broadcast and in the playoffs he steps it up. Last night was pretty pathetic though, Barea had two wide open layups back to back and Rondo was nowhere in sight.
Barea was coming off of picks and going directly to the hoop. There's no chance any point guard is going to come off the pick behind Barea and end up in front of him in the time it takes him to get from the three point line to the hoop.
Barrea is also quick as lightning.
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OP .., has some words of truth. Rondo is a GREAT defender ... "IF" he wants to be or if he chooses to defend and spend the energy. Another part of his tempermental attitude.
Rondo also is probally instructed not to defend TOO hard by Doc and watch his fouls, ROndo needs to be in the game for offense at the end of the game. Doc has him holding back maybe some , cause there is no good point guard replacement if he fouls out.
So some of the "LAX" may be to Docs wanting ROndo around at the end of the game. ???
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Rondo's been fine defensively though he does have an irritating tendency to drift/sink off ball - gives up more 3s than he should as a result.
The defensive problems with this team are at the 2, the 4, and off the bench. Terry's a sizable defensive liability as a starting 2-guard, Bass is a quick-footed but wild pick and roll defender (gets way out of position too often), Sully & Wilcox are foul machines and poor individual defenders (Sully's a slow team defender to boot), we have no defensive quality at the 5 behind KG.
KG and to a lesser extent Rondo and Pierce are the team's defensive assets. Lee to an even lesser extent. The rest of the rotation is comprised of average (Bass/Green) to bad (Terry/Barbosa/Sully/Wilcox) defenders.
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I really think AB has spoiled fans. Rondo has always been a gambler, but imo only since AB had his run has the Rondo's D sucks threads really come out.
It's not realistic to want a pg his size to give 100% effort on both ends for 82 games plus playoffs. Not to mention his key role in the offense and how our whole team relies on him for open looks.
I've been much more concerned about Lee's D, considering that's basically the only thing we are asking from him(besides 3 pt shooting)
So don't expect AB type D, and wait til the playoffs for the Real Rondo to show up because he saved his body by coasting on D.
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I really think AB has spoiled fans. Rondo has always been a gambler, but imo only since AB had his run has the Rondo's D sucks threads really come out.
It's not realistic to want a pg his size to give 100% effort on both ends for 82 games plus playoffs. Not to mention his key role in the offense and how our whole team relies on him for open looks.
I've been much more concerned about Lee's D, considering that's basically the only thing we are asking from him(besides 3 pt shooting)
So don't expect AB type D, and wait til the playoffs for the Real Rondo to show up because he saved his body by coasting on D.
I've personally been harping about Rondo's defense since the Big 3 have been with us, so this is nothing new to me. Some days he looks great, and others he falls back into bad habits. Part of his problem is his defensive stance is not conductive to stay in front of a player.
I personally have little problem with him gambling on the passing lanes, I think that's a worthy risk as it's a timing thing which he usually does correctly.
What I don't like is his lazy defensive effort to stop penetration and sometimes on how he fights through screens, that's indefensible in my opinion. The only redeeming facet of this is that he's one of the best playing from behind the ball (stripping the ball and blocking the shot from behind), but it puts our bigs in a very bad situation more often than not.
Coincidentally, he does well bodying up bigger players like SGs and SFs.
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This is an undeniable fact. Rondo plays lazy defense. Especially in the regular season. I have an 8th grade son who plays point and have sat there and rewound tape time and time again showing him Rondo defending as an example of what NOT to do. No one can argue that he uses his unreal speed to keep his feet in front of his man. No one can argue he gives 100% to get through the pick. No one can argue he doesn't drift away from his man usually losing sight of them. He has the physical tools to do all of these against almost every player in the game. He chooses to gamble in passing lanes, try and poke the ball out from behind, and hope his team helps recover from his poor effort.
That being said, he definitely increases his level of play during the playoffs. This is likely what frustrates fans the most. He gets paid 134k each game in the regular season to do a job. Why he chooses some nights to give 100% and some nights not to is beyond me. If he did, he'd be hands down the best PG in the game. Instead he is just in the running. I definitely have left the idea of trading him because you'd never get equal value for him, however I sure wish the guy had as much pride in his effort as an NBA player ought to. I don't expect 82 straight games of 100%, however lazy defense should be the exception, not the usual.
You don't know the difference between an "undeniable fact" and an opinion. Don't worry, it's a common problem. You're not alone.
Sorry buddy. I DO know the difference, and it IS an undeniable fact. It is provable. All you have to do is watch the games, rewind the tape if you need to pay a little closer attention, and unless you are just a Rondo excuser you will see that these are true facts.
Fact - Rondo is one of the FASTEST players in the NBA. This means that very few guards have the foot speed to beat him off the dribble if he is playing fundamental defense. See Bradley and the way he keeps his feet in front of his defender...
Fact - Rondo consistently lets his man past him and tries to POKE the ball out from behind. This isn't debatable. It is clear for you to see if you want to. This is NOT fundamental defense. It is gambling lazy defense. That is a fact.
Fact - Rondo cheats the passing lanes and often turns his back to his man when the ball is not in their hands. Clearly he is trying to jump the lanes and steal the ball. I get that, however as often as he steals the ball, his man gets a wide open shot. Not great defense and if you watch the tape it is undeniable.
Fact - When they are on national TV or it is playoff time he plays a different level of defense. All you have to do is watch the tape. He steps up his effort and plays at an elite level. This is also an undeniable fact.
I am not sure what you could possibly argue above to be an opinion. If it is provable, which it is, it is a fact. Doesn't make Rondo a bad player. Just means he could be better than he is. If he is satisfied with that then I don't get it. If you refuse to admit that then I don't get that either.
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Tell this to the All NBA first defensive award committee.
Ok yes hes lazy, but not in the national spotlight. on National broadcast and in the playoffs he steps it up. Last night was pretty pathetic though, Barea had two wide open layups back to back and Rondo was nowhere in sight.
Barea was coming off of picks and going directly to the hoop. There's no chance any point guard is going to come off the pick behind Barea and end up in front of him in the time it takes him to get from the three point line to the hoop.
Barrea is also quick as lightning.
Sorry you dont make excuses for those defensive possessions. Watch the footage again. If you see a screen coming (like rondo did) and make zero effort to get through it and at least hassle your man on his way to the hoop that is laziness. Nobody switched on rondo's man because they were the most feeble, pathetic pick'n'pop screens ever that any NBA player should have gotten through.
As for Barea being quick, ridnour also exploited this last night.
I'm not trying to get into Rondo personally here, but a lot of defensive problems right now stem from our 3, 4 and 5 man helping out on rondo's man, leaving their man open.
We have two games against jrue holiday coming up, and its going to get mighty frustrating if rondo doesnt pick up his guy properly in the half court.
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This is an undeniable fact. Rondo plays lazy defense. Especially in the regular season. I have an 8th grade son who plays point and have sat there and rewound tape time and time again showing him Rondo defending as an example of what NOT to do. No one can argue that he uses his unreal speed to keep his feet in front of his man. No one can argue he gives 100% to get through the pick. No one can argue he doesn't drift away from his man usually losing sight of them. He has the physical tools to do all of these against almost every player in the game. He chooses to gamble in passing lanes, try and poke the ball out from behind, and hope his team helps recover from his poor effort.
That being said, he definitely increases his level of play during the playoffs. This is likely what frustrates fans the most. He gets paid 134k each game in the regular season to do a job. Why he chooses some nights to give 100% and some nights not to is beyond me. If he did, he'd be hands down the best PG in the game. Instead he is just in the running. I definitely have left the idea of trading him because you'd never get equal value for him, however I sure wish the guy had as much pride in his effort as an NBA player ought to. I don't expect 82 straight games of 100%, however lazy defense should be the exception, not the usual.
You don't know the difference between an "undeniable fact" and an opinion. Don't worry, it's a common problem. You're not alone.
Sorry buddy. I DO know the difference, and it IS an undeniable fact. It is provable. All you have to do is watch the games, rewind the tape if you need to pay a little closer attention, and unless you are just a Rondo excuser you will see that these are true facts.
Fact - Rondo is one of the FASTEST players in the NBA. This means that very few guards have the foot speed to beat him off the dribble if he is playing fundamental defense. See Bradley and the way he keeps his feet in front of his defender...
Fact - Rondo consistently lets his man past him and tries to POKE the ball out from behind. This isn't debatable. It is clear for you to see if you want to. This is NOT fundamental defense. It is gambling lazy defense. That is a fact.
Fact - Rondo cheats the passing lanes and often turns his back to his man when the ball is not in their hands. Clearly he is trying to jump the lanes and steal the ball. I get that, however as often as he steals the ball, his man gets a wide open shot. Not great defense and if you watch the tape it is undeniable.
Fact - When they are on national TV or it is playoff time he plays a different level of defense. All you have to do is watch the tape. He steps up his effort and plays at an elite level. This is also an undeniable fact.
I am not sure what you could possibly argue above to be an opinion. If it is provable, which it is, it is a fact. Doesn't make Rondo a bad player. Just means he could be better than he is. If he is satisfied with that then I don't get it. If you refuse to admit that then I don't get that either.
I agree with many of your observations. I just have drawn different conclusions.
I think there are only a handful of guards (if there are any) who are as good man defenders as Avery Bradley. So your point is kind of moot there. And, even Bradley's man gets in the lane on occasion off the pick play.
Yes, Rondo tries to poke the ball away when the man gets by him. I would argue that it is more that he is still trying to make a play after the guy gets past him than that he is purposefully letting the guy get past him.
Yes, he cheats off certain guys looking to make plays off the ball. I think that is partially by design, but I will admit that I've heard Doc say that he sometimes does it more than he'd like. Of course, in hindsight, it's always a good play when it leads to a steal, a turnover, or a bad shot, but it's a mistake when it leads to an open jumper.
Yes, I agree that he has a tendency to step up his play in the biggest games.
While I have made many of the same observations as you have in watching Rondo's defense, those observations don't add up to your opinion that Rondo "plays lazy defense." I, along with most NBA experts, believe that he's one of the best defensive point guards in the game. He makes plays on the defensive end of the floor, he's a disruptor. To me, that's what you want defensively out of your point guard. He's one of the best at that.
With all the pick and roll play that happens in this league, coupled with the elite ability of lead guards to make plays off the dribble, you won't find a single guard who single-handedly keeps the opposing team's best ball handling guards out of the lane for an entire game. It that's what you are looking for and anything else equals failure, you are setting yourself up to only see failure.
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With all the pick and roll play that happens in this league, coupled with the elite ability of lead guards to make plays off the dribble, you won't find a single guard who single-handedly keeps the opposing team's best ball handling guards out of the lane for an entire game. It that's what you are looking for and anything else equals failure, you are setting yourself up to only see failure.
That isn't what I'm asking for. All I'm asking for is for him to fight through a single screen or at least hassle his man on the way to the basket. It is no coincidence that great driving guards like Tony Parker and Russell Westbrook consistently go off against the Celtics. These guys aren't Chris Paul. All they do is make a step and drive in a straight line to one side of the basket, either making a pass or scoring themselves.
I also get that this team likes to trap on the baseline, using it as a defender and then surrounding the ball handler, but rondo uses that as an excuse to let his man blow by him at the top of the key. There is no trap coming if the help cant get there in time.
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With all the pick and roll play that happens in this league, coupled with the elite ability of lead guards to make plays off the dribble, you won't find a single guard who single-handedly keeps the opposing team's best ball handling guards out of the lane for an entire game. It that's what you are looking for and anything else equals failure, you are setting yourself up to only see failure.
That isn't what I'm asking for. All I'm asking for is for him to fight through a single screen or at least hassle his man on the way to the basket. It is no coincidence that great driving guards like Tony Parker and Russell Westbrook consistently go off against the Celtics. These guys aren't Chris Paul. All they do is make a step and drive in a straight line to one side of the basket, either making a pass or scoring themselves.
I also get that this team likes to trap on the baseline, using it as a defender and then surrounding the ball handler, but rondo uses that as an excuse to let his man blow by him at the top of the key. There is no trap coming if the help cant get there in time.
If I had time, I'd look up Tony Parker and Russell Westbrook's total individual numbers against the Celtics since Rondo has been our starting point guard. I haven't looked it up, but my guess is they'd be down from their overall numbers during that time span.
Regardless of that, though, I do think that the help in the lane has to come faster and more decisively for this team to play the kind of D we've grown accustomed to seeing. It's been getting better the last few games, but it's on everybody to step it up.
Rondo is at his best defensively when he knows he can trust his back line defenders to rotate and make plays. It frees him up to do the things he does well which are getting in passing lanes and playing his free safety role.
When those things are all happening together, our defense is very, very good.
When the defense is struggling, it's the easy way out to look at the point guard and put it all on him. He's the guy matched up with the guy with the ball in his hands whose job is to get in the lane. When that guy gets in the lane, and the help isn't there, the point guard is the player who ends up looking bad.
Rondo's defensive "mistakes" are the easiest to see. He's generally the guy guarding the ball. Anyway, this is all part of why I'm so excited to see Bradley come back. His return should help free Rondo up to do the things he does best defensively off the ball and in passing lanes as Avery spends a lot of time covering the other team's best ball handlers.
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This is an undeniable fact. Rondo plays lazy defense. Especially in the regular season. I have an 8th grade son who plays point and have sat there and rewound tape time and time again showing him Rondo defending as an example of what NOT to do. No one can argue that he uses his unreal speed to keep his feet in front of his man. No one can argue he gives 100% to get through the pick. No one can argue he doesn't drift away from his man usually losing sight of them. He has the physical tools to do all of these against almost every player in the game. He chooses to gamble in passing lanes, try and poke the ball out from behind, and hope his team helps recover from his poor effort.
That being said, he definitely increases his level of play during the playoffs. This is likely what frustrates fans the most. He gets paid 134k each game in the regular season to do a job. Why he chooses some nights to give 100% and some nights not to is beyond me. If he did, he'd be hands down the best PG in the game. Instead he is just in the running. I definitely have left the idea of trading him because you'd never get equal value for him, however I sure wish the guy had as much pride in his effort as an NBA player ought to. I don't expect 82 straight games of 100%, however lazy defense should be the exception, not the usual.
You don't know the difference between an "undeniable fact" and an opinion. Don't worry, it's a common problem. You're not alone.
Sorry buddy. I DO know the difference, and it IS an undeniable fact. It is provable. All you have to do is watch the games, rewind the tape if you need to pay a little closer attention, and unless you are just a Rondo excuser you will see that these are true facts.
Fact - Rondo is one of the FASTEST players in the NBA. This means that very few guards have the foot speed to beat him off the dribble if he is playing fundamental defense. See Bradley and the way he keeps his feet in front of his defender...
It's not a fact that Rondo gets beat off the dribble very often. Almost every time Rondo's man gets into the lane it's because they used a pick to get by Rondo. Bradley hasn't played this year but he got beat off the dribble at least as often as Rondo, and offensive players went at Bradley more often than they went at Rondo.
Fact - Rondo consistently lets his man past him and tries to POKE the ball out from behind. This isn't debatable. It is clear for you to see if you want to. This is NOT fundamental defense. It is gambling lazy defense. That is a fact.
It's a fact that Rondo tries to poke the ball out from behind when his man gets past him. It's not a fact that he consistently lets his man go past him on purpose. I guess your opinion of fundamental defense is to *not* try and poke the ball loose when your man gets past you, I disagree.