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Celtics Basketball => Celtics Talk => Topic started by: edwardjkasche on December 05, 2012, 10:11:21 AM

Title: Yeah, I wish we still had Perkins...
Post by: edwardjkasche on December 05, 2012, 10:11:21 AM
...even if we would have overpaid to keep him.

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/nba--kendrick-perkins-soothes-egos--resolves-issues-in-thunder-locker-room-071044932.html

This is just another story about how Perkins helps out his team and teammates.

Doc and KG sure helped shape a good young man who is growing into a useful intelligent veteran.

Miss 'ya, Perk.
Title: Re: Yeah, I wish we still had Perkins...
Post by: wdleehi on December 05, 2012, 10:15:01 AM
I read that.  Good reason why the Thunder like him on the team.



It is also something the Celtics do not needs as much because of KG and Pierce. 



(not that I don't miss Perk)
Title: Re: Yeah, I wish we still had Perkins...
Post by: Moranis on December 05, 2012, 10:23:57 AM
As bad a contract as Perkins signed, I'd rather pay him than Green that awful contract. 
Title: Re: Yeah, I wish we still had Perkins...
Post by: Edgar on December 05, 2012, 10:29:09 AM
I wish we have Kevin Seraphin - New fan here

(http://ts1.mm.bing.net/th?id=I.4707284939637540&pid=15.1)
Title: Re: Yeah, I wish we still had Perkins...
Post by: scaryjerry on December 05, 2012, 10:40:22 AM
Agreed.....I don't care how many people come here and say what a scrub Perkins is(same people who said we lost a game 7 of the finals because he was hurt) he was like family to this team, was brilliant defensively with kg, was Rondos  best friend and a positive influence on him....and he brought mental and physical toughness period
Title: Re: Yeah, I wish we still had Perkins...
Post by: pearljammer10 on December 05, 2012, 10:48:01 AM
Ive been saying this and beatin this dead horse since the trade. Hated the trade then, hated the trade in the middle, still greatly hate the trade now. Perkins was our attitude, our chemistry, and a leader in our brotherhood. Loosing him was the Celtics biggest mistake of the last few years.
Title: Re: Yeah, I wish we still had Perkins...
Post by: scaryjerry on December 05, 2012, 10:51:09 AM
I read that.  Good reason why the Thunder like him on the team.



It is also something the Celtics do not needs as much because of KG and Pierce. 



(not that I don't miss Perk)

Eh I don't see young players or rondo calling kg or pierce to vent...that's why dooling was the mentor last season because it use to be Perkins...why else did he and others  go into a shell after the trade?
Title: Re: Yeah, I wish we still had Perkins...
Post by: Cman on December 05, 2012, 10:52:57 AM
Ive been saying this and beatin this dead horse since the trade. Hated the trade then, hated the trade in the middle, still greatly hate the trade now. Perkins was our attitude, our chemistry, and a leader in our brotherhood. Loosing him was the Celtics biggest mistake of the last few years.

I thought the trade made sense at the time. 9 times out of 10 I make that trade. In retrospect it didn't work out for the Celtics. Basically everything that could have gone wrong with that trade from the Cs point of view went wrong. But the odds of that happening were/are small.

Title: Re: Yeah, I wish we still had Perkins...
Post by: crownsy on December 05, 2012, 10:57:15 AM
Ive been saying this and beatin this dead horse since the trade. Hated the trade then, hated the trade in the middle, still greatly hate the trade now. Perkins was our attitude, our chemistry, and a leader in our brotherhood. Loosing him was the Celtics biggest mistake of the last few years.

He's been injured and generally awful at 9 million a year since the trade. 2008 Perk is dead and buried, ever since he blew out that knee in 2010 he's been a shell of his former self. What makes you think that's any different had he stayed? our amazing medial staff  ???

I know people get nostalgic, and JG certainly isn't a knock out for us, but lets ask OCK how they feel about their 9 million dollar a year center.

oh, you want to amnistiy him you say? he doesn't see the floor late in games in favor of collision?

I have no desire to get perk back unless they toss in a dolorian that takes him back to pre knee injury, or he gets bought out and comes cheap. 
Title: Re: Yeah, I wish we still had Perkins...
Post by: scaryjerry on December 05, 2012, 10:59:39 AM
Ive been saying this and beatin this dead horse since the trade. Hated the trade then, hated the trade in the middle, still greatly hate the trade now. Perkins was our attitude, our chemistry, and a leader in our brotherhood. Loosing him was the Celtics biggest mistake of the last few years.

He's been injured and generally awful at 9 million a year since the trade. 2008 Perk is dead and buried, ever since he blew out that knee in 2010 he's been a shell of his former self. What makes you think that's any different had he stayed? our amazing medial staff  ???

I know people get nostalgic, and JG certainly isn't a knock out for us, but lets ask OCK how they feel about their 9 million dollar a year center.

oh, you want to amnistiy him you say? he doesn't see the floor late in games in favor of collision?

I have no desire to get perk back unless they toss in a dolorian that takes him back to pre knee injury, or he gets bought out and comes cheap.

Jeff green has been more consistently injured and generally more awful and needs to be mentored as opposed to being a mentor. He deserves more than Jeff green. Id rather have him then Jeff green.
Title: Re: Yeah, I wish we still had Perkins...
Post by: pearljammer10 on December 05, 2012, 11:12:18 AM
Ive been saying this and beatin this dead horse since the trade. Hated the trade then, hated the trade in the middle, still greatly hate the trade now. Perkins was our attitude, our chemistry, and a leader in our brotherhood. Loosing him was the Celtics biggest mistake of the last few years.

He's been injured and generally awful at 9 million a year since the trade. 2008 Perk is dead and buried, ever since he blew out that knee in 2010 he's been a shell of his former self. What makes you think that's any different had he stayed? our amazing medial staff  ???

I know people get nostalgic, and JG certainly isn't a knock out for us, but lets ask OCK how they feel about their 9 million dollar a year center.

oh, you want to amnistiy him you say? he doesn't see the floor late in games in favor of collision?

I have no desire to get perk back unless they toss in a dolorian that takes him back to pre knee injury, or he gets bought out and comes cheap.

Jeff green has been more consistently injured and generally more awful and needs to be mentored as opposed to being a mentor. He deserves more than Jeff green. Id rather have him then Jeff green.

Haha yeah, its ironic that in your post you point out Perks injuries but what about the guy who missed and entire season for being injured? Does it say somewhere in Greens old contract that we get a dolorian to give us the 2009 and 2010 Jeff Green?

And Perkins might not be on the floor late in games for the Thunder... During 08 he wasnt in late games for us either. Doc loved using the Posey lineup that year (Rondo, Allen, Pierce, Posey, Garnett) late in games to stretch the floor and turn up the D. He also went to PJ late in games a few times for offense.

The Perk trade lost so much for the celtics, that we will never be able to get back.
Title: Re: Yeah, I wish we still had Perkins...
Post by: crownsy on December 05, 2012, 11:21:18 AM
Ive been saying this and beatin this dead horse since the trade. Hated the trade then, hated the trade in the middle, still greatly hate the trade now. Perkins was our attitude, our chemistry, and a leader in our brotherhood. Loosing him was the Celtics biggest mistake of the last few years.

He's been injured and generally awful at 9 million a year since the trade. 2008 Perk is dead and buried, ever since he blew out that knee in 2010 he's been a shell of his former self. What makes you think that's any different had he stayed? our amazing medial staff  ???

I know people get nostalgic, and JG certainly isn't a knock out for us, but lets ask OCK how they feel about their 9 million dollar a year center.

oh, you want to amnistiy him you say? he doesn't see the floor late in games in favor of collision?

I have no desire to get perk back unless they toss in a dolorian that takes him back to pre knee injury, or he gets bought out and comes cheap.

Jeff green has been more consistently injured and generally more awful and needs to be mentored as opposed to being a mentor. He deserves more than Jeff green. Id rather have him then Jeff green.

at 9 million per? you'd rather have a defensive center who can no longer jump, which has limited him defensively?

In what way is that better?

I love perk, if he gets bought out/ amnistied by the thunder count me in for a cheap contract, but this whole "man, if we had perk we'd be a much tougher team inside" is a flawed argument.

Would they be tougher? sure, they can't get any softer, but for 9 million a year? no thanks. he wasen't worth that pre injury, and certainly isn't worth in with how he currently plays.

Title: Re: Yeah, I wish we still had Perkins...
Post by: crownsy on December 05, 2012, 11:31:58 AM
Ive been saying this and beatin this dead horse since the trade. Hated the trade then, hated the trade in the middle, still greatly hate the trade now. Perkins was our attitude, our chemistry, and a leader in our brotherhood. Loosing him was the Celtics biggest mistake of the last few years.

He's been injured and generally awful at 9 million a year since the trade. 2008 Perk is dead and buried, ever since he blew out that knee in 2010 he's been a shell of his former self. What makes you think that's any different had he stayed? our amazing medial staff  ???

I know people get nostalgic, and JG certainly isn't a knock out for us, but lets ask OCK how they feel about their 9 million dollar a year center.

oh, you want to amnistiy him you say? he doesn't see the floor late in games in favor of collision?

I have no desire to get perk back unless they toss in a dolorian that takes him back to pre knee injury, or he gets bought out and comes cheap.

Jeff green has been more consistently injured and generally more awful and needs to be mentored as opposed to being a mentor. He deserves more than Jeff green. Id rather have him then Jeff green.

Haha yeah, its ironic that in your post you point out Perks injuries but what about the guy who missed and entire season for being injured? Does it say somewhere in Greens old contract that we get a dolorian to give us the 2009 and 2010 Jeff Green?

And Perkins might not be on the floor late in games for the Thunder... During 08 he wasnt in late games for us either. Doc loved using the Posey lineup that year (Rondo, Allen, Pierce, Posey, Garnett) late in games to stretch the floor and turn up the D. He also went to PJ late in games a few times for offense.

The Perk trade lost so much for the celtics, that we will never be able to get back.

This is where I don't understand your argument. I haven't, to my knowledge, ever disagreed with you that Jeff Green is currently a giant bust, so pointing out to me that he sucks doesn't actually do anything to disprove my point. I agree, though I still hold out a fools hope that he will at least become serviceable this year.

but I don't see how that relates to the fact that Perk has ALSO been awful since the trade.

essentially, the trade has been crap for both teams. we got JG, who currently is a huge disapointment. They got a guy who blew out a knee and isn't who they thought they were getting, PLUS it cost them James Harden.

my assertion is not that we "won" the trade, it is that statements like the one i bolded are not factually accurate or supportable. They are based on nostalgia

They rely on the assumption that had perk stayed here and signed the contract he wanted (a huge if, as the celtics were not going to offer him the clownshoes money OKC did.) then he would still be a tough rebounder, shot blocker, and overall defensive anchor.

That perk died in 2010 with his ACL. at the moment he is an average, at best, defensive center. he is clearly limited physically, and he shouldn't be this far removed from the ACL.

Would he be better than what we currently have? sure, what we have sucks. but I don't want him at his absurd contract, and to pretend we'd be getting the Perk from 2007-2010 that we all loved is inaccurate.

If he gets amnestied, as it has been rumored, then im on board for much lower money.

Title: Re: Yeah, I wish we still had Perkins...
Post by: pearljammer10 on December 05, 2012, 11:42:35 AM
Ive been saying this and beatin this dead horse since the trade. Hated the trade then, hated the trade in the middle, still greatly hate the trade now. Perkins was our attitude, our chemistry, and a leader in our brotherhood. Loosing him was the Celtics biggest mistake of the last few years.

He's been injured and generally awful at 9 million a year since the trade. 2008 Perk is dead and buried, ever since he blew out that knee in 2010 he's been a shell of his former self. What makes you think that's any different had he stayed? our amazing medial staff  ???

I know people get nostalgic, and JG certainly isn't a knock out for us, but lets ask OCK how they feel about their 9 million dollar a year center.

oh, you want to amnistiy him you say? he doesn't see the floor late in games in favor of collision?

I have no desire to get perk back unless they toss in a dolorian that takes him back to pre knee injury, or he gets bought out and comes cheap.

Jeff green has been more consistently injured and generally more awful and needs to be mentored as opposed to being a mentor. He deserves more than Jeff green. Id rather have him then Jeff green.

at 9 million per? you'd rather have a defensive center who can no longer jump, which has limited him defensively?

In what way is that better?

I love perk, if he gets bought out/ amnistied by the thunder count me in for a cheap contract, but this whole "man, if we had perk we'd be a much tougher team inside" is a flawed argument.

Would they be tougher? sure, they can't get any softer, but for 9 million a year? no thanks. he wasen't worth that pre injury, and certainly isn't worth in with how he currently plays.

I would absolutely take it. I think Perk would have singed here for a little less, but look at any starting center in the league not on a rookie contract. They are pretty much all at or above 8 mil a year while most are making 10+ millions a year. Desagna Diop has a 7 mil expiring this year. For a center, thats the going rate. Overpriced? Yes. But it fills a needs.

True centers are hard to come by. Especially one who brings so much to your team off the court, in the locker room, and to your defense. When a teammates is trusted by your veterans, no matter how terrible they are on the offensive end, that plays a huge difference in the whole scheme of things. Back up swing men playing a reserve role are a lot easier to sign and are usually a lot cheaper.

At the time, and currently, we needed/need a player who can come in to play 15 minutes a game behind Pierce. Green fits the role terribly. Guys like Josh Howard, Matt Barnes, Peitrus, Corey Brewer etc... all would have done the job perfectly, and were all at one point available for us to obtain somehow. Green playing 15 - 20 minutes a game isn't going to benefit anyone from my eyes.
Title: Re: Yeah, I wish we still had Perkins...
Post by: pearljammer10 on December 05, 2012, 11:44:10 AM
Ive been saying this and beatin this dead horse since the trade. Hated the trade then, hated the trade in the middle, still greatly hate the trade now. Perkins was our attitude, our chemistry, and a leader in our brotherhood. Loosing him was the Celtics biggest mistake of the last few years.

He's been injured and generally awful at 9 million a year since the trade. 2008 Perk is dead and buried, ever since he blew out that knee in 2010 he's been a shell of his former self. What makes you think that's any different had he stayed? our amazing medial staff  ???

I know people get nostalgic, and JG certainly isn't a knock out for us, but lets ask OCK how they feel about their 9 million dollar a year center.

oh, you want to amnistiy him you say? he doesn't see the floor late in games in favor of collision?

I have no desire to get perk back unless they toss in a dolorian that takes him back to pre knee injury, or he gets bought out and comes cheap.

Jeff green has been more consistently injured and generally more awful and needs to be mentored as opposed to being a mentor. He deserves more than Jeff green. Id rather have him then Jeff green.

Haha yeah, its ironic that in your post you point out Perks injuries but what about the guy who missed and entire season for being injured? Does it say somewhere in Greens old contract that we get a dolorian to give us the 2009 and 2010 Jeff Green?

And Perkins might not be on the floor late in games for the Thunder... During 08 he wasnt in late games for us either. Doc loved using the Posey lineup that year (Rondo, Allen, Pierce, Posey, Garnett) late in games to stretch the floor and turn up the D. He also went to PJ late in games a few times for offense.

The Perk trade lost so much for the celtics, that we will never be able to get back.

This is where I don't understand your argument. I haven't, to my knowledge, ever disagreed with you that Jeff Green is currently a giant bust, so pointing out to me that he sucks doesn't actually do anything to disprove my point. I agree, though I still hold out a fools hope that he will at least become serviceable this year.

but I don't see how that relates to the fact that Perk has ALSO been awful since the trade.

essentially, the trade has been crap for both teams. we got JG, who currently is a huge disapointment. They got a guy who blew out a knee and isn't who they thought they were getting, PLUS it cost them James Harden.

my assertion is not that we "won" the trade, it is that statements like the one i bolded are not factually accurate or supportable. They are based on nostalgia

They rely on the assumption that had perk stayed here and signed the contract he wanted (a huge if, as the celtics were not going to offer him the clownshoes money OKC did.) then he would still be a tough rebounder, shot blocker, and overall defensive anchor.

That perk died in 2010 with his ACL. at the moment he is an average, at best, defensive center. he is clearly limited physically, and he shouldn't be this far removed from the ACL.

Would he be better than what we currently have? sure, what we have sucks. but I don't want him at his absurd contract, and to pretend we'd be getting the Perk from 2007-2010 that we all loved is inaccurate.

If he gets amnestied, as it has been rumored, then im on board for much lower money.

I could care less about stats. The Thunder MADE THE FINALS with Perk as their STARTING center. That alone makes him worth it.
Title: Re: Yeah, I wish we still had Perkins...
Post by: scaryjerry on December 05, 2012, 11:46:16 AM
Not my money so yup and even if it was id rather give Perkins the money than Jeff green
Title: Re: Yeah, I wish we still had Perkins...
Post by: Fafnir on December 05, 2012, 11:48:31 AM
The Cavaliers MADE THE FINALS with Larry Hughes as their STARTING point guard.

That alone made him worth his contract.
Title: Re: Yeah, I wish we still had Perkins...
Post by: Josh88 on December 05, 2012, 11:53:30 AM
It still baffles me to this day that the Cavs chose to sign Hughes over Joe Johnson that offseason, and for more money. I just never understood that. 
Title: Re: Yeah, I wish we still had Perkins...
Post by: pearljammer10 on December 05, 2012, 11:55:25 AM
The Cavaliers MADE THE FINALS with Larry Hughes as their STARTING point guard.

That alone made him worth his contract.

Larry Hughes was a very underrated player that suffered from bad shot selection and way too many injuries. He still had a high basketball IQ and played well until going to the Bulls in 07 and dropping off the face of the earth.

Best season; Averaged 22 points 6 boards 5 assists and 3 steals a game in 61 games for the Wizards in 04 - 05 who were 45 and 37 and made it to the Eastern Conference Semis.
Title: Re: Yeah, I wish we still had Perkins...
Post by: Josh88 on December 05, 2012, 12:04:40 PM
If I were a GM I would always steer clear of players who put up career numbers in contract years.
Title: Re: Yeah, I wish we still had Perkins...
Post by: Fafnir on December 05, 2012, 12:10:04 PM
The Cavaliers MADE THE FINALS with Larry Hughes as their STARTING point guard.

That alone made him worth his contract.

Larry Hughes was a very underrated player that suffered from bad shot selection and way too many injuries. He still had a high basketball IQ and played well until going to the Bulls in 07 and dropping off the face of the earth.

Best season; Averaged 22 points 6 boards 5 assists and 3 steals a game in 61 games for the Wizards in 04 - 05 who were 45 and 37 and made it to the Eastern Conference Semis.
I know you love yourself some Perkins, but you're going to try and defend Larry Hughes (and his contract from the Cavs)?

He had his career year in his contract year and never again approached that level of production. He was passed around like most bad contracts are, from team to team as ballast for a different bad contract to make things work.
Title: Re: Yeah, I wish we still had Perkins...
Post by: pearljammer10 on December 05, 2012, 12:13:54 PM
The Cavaliers MADE THE FINALS with Larry Hughes as their STARTING point guard.

That alone made him worth his contract.

Larry Hughes was a very underrated player that suffered from bad shot selection and way too many injuries. He still had a high basketball IQ and played well until going to the Bulls in 07 and dropping off the face of the earth.

Best season; Averaged 22 points 6 boards 5 assists and 3 steals a game in 61 games for the Wizards in 04 - 05 who were 45 and 37 and made it to the Eastern Conference Semis.
I know you love yourself some Perkins, but you're going to try and defend Larry Hughes (and his contract from the Cavs)?

He had his career year in his contract year and never again approached that level of production. He was passed around like most bad contracts are, from team to team as ballast for a different bad contract to make things work.

Yes I love me some Perkins. But I love Green as well. I think Green is a better player I just think Perkins fits our team better and we would be better with him.

As for Hughes I am in no way trying to defend his contract from the Cavs. It was an absurd contract. All Im am saying is that as a player, I think Hughes gets a bad wrap. Like I said bad shot selection and suffered from injury after injury after injury.

Comparable to Baron Davis for me even though Davis better. Both great talents, both lazy, both injury prone, somewhat dumb at points, but man can they play and turn it on when they want to.
Title: Re: Yeah, I wish we still had Perkins...
Post by: Celtics4ever on December 05, 2012, 12:15:12 PM
Perkins is damaged goods and not the same player that ship has sailed.
Title: Re: Yeah, I wish we still had Perkins...
Post by: edwardjkasche on December 05, 2012, 12:49:34 PM
Remember when the trade was initially made and it came out that Ainge had asked for Harden before Green, but Presti wouldn't give up Harden.  Ainge knew then which player was better.  I'm surprised he settled for Green.  He should have nixed the deal.  In the end, Green's been useless, Perk is on a championship contender, and Presti got rid of Harden anyway.

Pierce has never been the kind of leader that rallies the young guys and gets everyone together.  I admire his work in the community and he is The Captain of the team, but the people that wrote that no one is calling Pierce at night to talk things out are right.  Pierce isn't that type of leader.

KG is soft without a big with attitude behind him.  Yeah, I said it.  Perkins's toughness allowed KG to be who he was.  When Perk was traded, the two O'Neals were brought in to supply that, but neither did.  Now we're stuck with Rondo sticking up for KG.  Can you imagine how many rows deeper into the stands Perk would have driven Humphries?

I miss Perk.  At least he boxes out his man.
Title: Re: Yeah, I wish we still had Perkins...
Post by: crownsy on December 05, 2012, 12:56:12 PM
Remember when the trade was initially made and it came out that Ainge had asked for Harden before Green, but Presti wouldn't give up Harden.  Ainge knew then which player was better.  I'm surprised he settled for Green.  He should have nixed the deal.  In the end, Green's been useless, Perk is on a championship contender, and Presti got rid of Harden anyway.

Pierce has never been the kind of leader that rallies the young guys and gets everyone together.  I admire his work in the community and he is The Captain of the team, but the people that wrote that no one is calling Pierce at night to talk things out are right.  Pierce isn't that type of leader.

KG is soft without a big with attitude behind him.  Yeah, I said it.  Perkins's toughness allowed KG to be who he was.  When Perk was traded, the two O'Neals were brought in to supply that, but neither did.  Now we're stuck with Rondo sticking up for KG.  Can you imagine how many rows deeper into the stands Perk would have driven Humphries?

I miss Perk.  At least he boxes out his man.

they got rid of harden BECAUSE of perk. Perks 9/mill per limited them in what they could offer Harden. you really think they don't want a do over on that one?



Title: Re: Yeah, I wish we still had Perkins...
Post by: scaryjerry on December 05, 2012, 01:07:09 PM
Perkins is damaged goods and not the same player that ship has sailed.


Jeff green is worse and a worse fit. Perkins helps the thunder greatly as evidenced by article in op
Title: Re: Yeah, I wish we still had Perkins...
Post by: moiso on December 05, 2012, 01:12:08 PM
The Cavaliers MADE THE FINALS with Larry Hughes as their STARTING point guard.

That alone made him worth his contract.

Larry Hughes was a very underrated player that suffered from bad shot selection and way too many injuries. He still had a high basketball IQ and played well until going to the Bulls in 07 and dropping off the face of the earth.

Best season; Averaged 22 points 6 boards 5 assists and 3 steals a game in 61 games for the Wizards in 04 - 05 who were 45 and 37 and made it to the Eastern Conference Semis.
I think he was overrated for a long time due to that one fluke year.
Title: Re: Yeah, I wish we still had Perkins...
Post by: pearljammer10 on December 05, 2012, 01:28:54 PM
Remember when the trade was initially made and it came out that Ainge had asked for Harden before Green, but Presti wouldn't give up Harden.  Ainge knew then which player was better.  I'm surprised he settled for Green.  He should have nixed the deal.  In the end, Green's been useless, Perk is on a championship contender, and Presti got rid of Harden anyway.

Pierce has never been the kind of leader that rallies the young guys and gets everyone together.  I admire his work in the community and he is The Captain of the team, but the people that wrote that no one is calling Pierce at night to talk things out are right.  Pierce isn't that type of leader.

KG is soft without a big with attitude behind him.  Yeah, I said it.  Perkins's toughness allowed KG to be who he was.  When Perk was traded, the two O'Neals were brought in to supply that, but neither did.  Now we're stuck with Rondo sticking up for KG.  Can you imagine how many rows deeper into the stands Perk would have driven Humphries?

I miss Perk.  At least he boxes out his man.

they got rid of harden BECAUSE of perk. Perks 9/mill per limited them in what they could offer Harden. you really think they don't want a do over on that one?

TP for edward. You hit the nail on the head. Plus I think Harden was gone whether Perk was there or not the Thunder never wanted to give Harden a max contract. Without Harden or Martin's contracts (not including Perks either), the Thunder are already at the cap without any additions. Ibaka, Westbrook, and Durant make up for 46 million between the three of them.
Title: Re: Yeah, I wish we still had Perkins...
Post by: KGs Knee on December 05, 2012, 01:33:11 PM

they got rid of harden BECAUSE of perk. Perks 9/mill per limited them in what they could offer Harden. you really think they don't want a do over on that one?

And this statement right here sums up how OKC feels about Perk.

The fact, that instead of amnestying Perk they traded Harden, says a lot.  Obviously it doesn't mean Perk is better than Harden, but that what Harden was giving them was more easily replaced through trade then what Perk brings.  Maybe OKC would like to be paying less for Perk, but they need his interior defense and toughness.

The vast majority of the quality big men are out west.  Perk is NOT GETTING AMNESTIED.  People really need to stop peddling the false statement, as if it has a shred of truth.  It's bogus.
Title: Re: Yeah, I wish we still had Perkins...
Post by: crownsy on December 05, 2012, 01:36:43 PM
Perkins is damaged goods and not the same player that ship has sailed.


Jeff green is worse and a worse fit. Perkins helps the thunder greatly as evidenced by article in op

Yes, I often contemplate amnestying players who are  vital to my ball club.  ::)

He's a decent player for them, not near the player they thought they were getting when they traded for him, and certainly not worth 10 million on thier cap next year.

again, 2007-2010 Perk, sign me up.

Post ACL reconstruction perk - sign me up only at a much reduced cap hit

Title: Re: Yeah, I wish we still had Perkins...
Post by: crownsy on December 05, 2012, 01:38:26 PM

they got rid of harden BECAUSE of perk. Perks 9/mill per limited them in what they could offer Harden. you really think they don't want a do over on that one?

And this statement right here sums up how OKC feels about Perk.

The fact, that instead of amnestying Perk they traded Harden, says a lot.  Obviously it doesn't mean Perk is better than Harden, but that what Harden was giving them was more easily replaced through trade then what Perk brings.  Maybe OKC would like to be paying less for Perk, but they need his interior defense and toughness.

The vast majority of the quality big men are out west.  Perk is NOT GETTING AMNESTIED.  People really need to stop peddling the false statement, as if it has a shred of truth.  It's bogus.


No, they didn't amnesty him, according to sources, because while they'd get him off the cap, you still have to pay him the contract. There owner didn't want to pay the balance of the contract AND have to pay Harden + a replacement big man.

amnestying a guy isn't a get out of jail free card, it just removes the cap hit.
Title: Re: Yeah, I wish we still had Perkins...
Post by: pearljammer10 on December 05, 2012, 01:40:51 PM

they got rid of harden BECAUSE of perk. Perks 9/mill per limited them in what they could offer Harden. you really think they don't want a do over on that one?

And this statement right here sums up how OKC feels about Perk.

The fact, that instead of amnestying Perk they traded Harden, says a lot.  Obviously it doesn't mean Perk is better than Harden, but that what Harden was giving them was more easily replaced through trade then what Perk brings.  Maybe OKC would like to be paying less for Perk, but they need his interior defense and toughness.

The vast majority of the quality big men are out west.  Perk is NOT GETTING AMNESTIED.  People really need to stop peddling the false statement, as if it has a shred of truth.  It's bogus.

Im throwing out another TP this time to you! Exactly. This is the point I was trying to make about Jeff Green not filling a role here. We easily could have put Josh Howard, Corey Brewer, other names Ive mentioned, in his role, kept Perk, and have been much better off the past couple years.

Best post Ive seen all day.
Title: Re: Yeah, I wish we still had Perkins...
Post by: KGs Knee on December 05, 2012, 01:43:15 PM

they got rid of harden BECAUSE of perk. Perks 9/mill per limited them in what they could offer Harden. you really think they don't want a do over on that one?

And this statement right here sums up how OKC feels about Perk.

The fact, that instead of amnestying Perk they traded Harden, says a lot.  Obviously it doesn't mean Perk is better than Harden, but that what Harden was giving them was more easily replaced through trade then what Perk brings.  Maybe OKC would like to be paying less for Perk, but they need his interior defense and toughness.

The vast majority of the quality big men are out west.  Perk is NOT GETTING AMNESTIED.  People really need to stop peddling the false statement, as if it has a shred of truth.  It's bogus.


No, they didn't amnesty him, according to sources, because while they'd get him off the cap, you still have to pay him the contract. There owner didn't want to pay the balance of the contract AND have to pay Harden + a replacement big man.

amnestying a guy isn't a get out of jail free card, it just removes the cap hit.

I know what the amnesty provision entails.

I'm telling you it doesn't matter.  OKC has never had any intentions of using it on Perk.  NONE!

The only talk ther has ever been, to my knowledge, were some unsubstantiated rumors put forth by random TV talking heads and bloggers.  OKC values Perk's contributions very much.

Perk might not be what he once was, but he still fulfills a very specific and difficult to fill role.  Intetior defenders are not easy to come by, not at his level.
Title: Re: Yeah, I wish we still had Perkins...
Post by: scaryjerry on December 05, 2012, 02:30:39 PM
Perkins is damaged goods and not the same player that ship has sailed.


Jeff green is worse and a worse fit. Perkins helps the thunder greatly as evidenced by article in op

Yes, I often contemplate amnestying players who are  vital to my ball club.  ::)

He's a decent player for them, not near the player they thought they were getting when they traded for him, and certainly not worth 10 million on thier cap next year.

again, 2007-2010 Perk, sign me up.

Post ACL reconstruction perk - sign me up only at a much reduced cap hit

can I get some proof they contemplated amnestying Perkins or is this based on bloggers and bill Simmons ideas?
Hes better and would be better for us than Jeff green
Title: Re: Yeah, I wish we still had Perkins...
Post by: wdleehi on December 05, 2012, 02:39:54 PM
I thought Harden was traded because he wanted to be payed max money and the Thunder wanted to pay him third star money. 


If they had not offered him a big contract, I could see Perk being the reason he was traded.
Title: Re: Yeah, I wish we still had Perkins...
Post by: pearljammer10 on December 05, 2012, 02:44:47 PM
This sums up everything I think about Perk. From an article today at YahooSports. (via hoopshype).

Quote
In victory and defeat, the ball belongs to the NBA's two best 20-something scorers and everyone else is left to sort through the scraps of shots. "I get phone calls at all hours of the night from different teammates," Perkins told Yahoo Sports. "And I've got to tell them: OK, you didn't get yours tonight but… " Perkins told Yahoo! Sports. "So OK, take Serge [Ibaka]. I'll tell him, "OK man, you got seven points tonight, then you need to go get eight blocks. Some nights it's not going to be your night, where you can touch the ball. It's like that on this team, especially when you've got scorers like Russ, K.D. and Kevin Martin leading the league in scoring."



And the biggest one:

Quote
Within the Thunder organization, they understand Perkins' value extends far beyond the modest statistics. These Thunder are undergoing the natural evolution of a rising power, where shots and minutes are rubbing egos the wrong way. Perkins plays the part of traffic cop, counseling in ways significant and slight. Yahoo! Sports

Like KGsKnee said earlier... They weren't planning on Amnestying a player like Perk. And Ill say it again, we havent been the same since Perk left.



And for good measure this was part of the article too.

Quote
Ask him about playing those months in excruciating pain, and he shrugs and grumbles and says, "That groin injury, it was definitely… Ah, I don't like to make excuses, but … that groin injury was definitely a pain in the ass." For everyone else suggesting these Thunder will go to the Finals for years to come, that this young core will go on for years and years, Perkins simply says, "I was there when we lost 18 in a row in Boston. I'll never take this for granted."
Title: Re: Yeah, I wish we still had Perkins...
Post by: mctyson on December 05, 2012, 05:02:17 PM
...even if we would have overpaid to keep him.

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/nba--kendrick-perkins-soothes-egos--resolves-issues-in-thunder-locker-room-071044932.html

This is just another story about how Perkins helps out his team and teammates.

Doc and KG sure helped shape a good young man who is growing into a useful intelligent veteran.

Miss 'ya, Perk.

You do realize that he is arguably the worst starting C in the entire league, right?
Title: Re: Yeah, I wish we still had Perkins...
Post by: mctyson on December 05, 2012, 05:13:08 PM

they got rid of harden BECAUSE of perk. Perks 9/mill per limited them in what they could offer Harden. you really think they don't want a do over on that one?

And this statement right here sums up how OKC feels about Perk.

The fact, that instead of amnestying Perk they traded Harden, says a lot.  Obviously it doesn't mean Perk is better than Harden, but that what Harden was giving them was more easily replaced through trade then what Perk brings.  Maybe OKC would like to be paying less for Perk, but they need his interior defense and toughness.

The vast majority of the quality big men are out west.  Perk is NOT GETTING AMNESTIED.  People really need to stop peddling the false statement, as if it has a shred of truth.  It's bogus.

No, it says that Presti had to manage his cap according to the owners' requirements, and that meant letting Harden go.  I am sure he proposed amnestying Perkins to the owners, who then said "wait, you want us to pay him $9M to NOT play?" and then said "NO." 

There is no doubt in my mind Presti regrets the Perk signing, but he had to sign him.  It was too much to give up for a Perk rental.

Having Dwight Howard on the Lakers has made Perkins more valuable to OKC, not doubt.  But he is still a horrifically overpaid player for what he does on the court.
Title: Re: Yeah, I wish we still had Perkins...
Post by: ScottHow on December 05, 2012, 05:14:31 PM
It's pretty crazy we went from the "biggest" team that season to now one of the smallest and softest.
Title: Re: Yeah, I wish we still had Perkins...
Post by: D.o.s. on December 05, 2012, 05:36:51 PM
Great hands, though.



(http://cdn3.sbnation.com/uploads/chorus_image/image/4449065/20121204_kkt_aw8_211.0_standard_783.0.jpg)

 ;)
Title: Re: Yeah, I wish we still had Perkins...
Post by: GreenFaith1819 on December 05, 2012, 05:38:39 PM
...even if we would have overpaid to keep him.

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/nba--kendrick-perkins-soothes-egos--resolves-issues-in-thunder-locker-room-071044932.html

This is just another story about how Perkins helps out his team and teammates.

Doc and KG sure helped shape a good young man who is growing into a useful intelligent veteran.

Miss 'ya, Perk.

You do realize that he is arguably the worst starting C in the entire league, right?

And a bonafide Dwight and Bynum stopper.

No other center does THAT better.

That fact alone pretty much guarantees OKC's ticket is punched to the finals once again.
Title: Re: Yeah, I wish we still had Perkins...
Post by: jdz101 on December 05, 2012, 06:16:50 PM
...even if we would have overpaid to keep him.

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/nba--kendrick-perkins-soothes-egos--resolves-issues-in-thunder-locker-room-071044932.html

This is just another story about how Perkins helps out his team and teammates.

Doc and KG sure helped shape a good young man who is growing into a useful intelligent veteran.

Miss 'ya, Perk.

You do realize that he is arguably the worst starting C in the entire league, right?

And a bonafide Dwight and Bynum stopper.

No other center does THAT better.

That fact alone pretty much guarantees OKC's ticket is punched to the finals once again.

With all the respect in the world, Perkins ain't stopping anyone.

The excuse used to be that "this guy is a bad matchup for perk because he's too long and mobile and athletic."

Right now everyone is a bad matchup for perk. How would Perkins defend chris bosh on single coverage? Good luck with that.
Title: Re: Yeah, I wish we still had Perkins...
Post by: GreenFaith1819 on December 05, 2012, 07:00:51 PM
...even if we would have overpaid to keep him.

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/nba--kendrick-perkins-soothes-egos--resolves-issues-in-thunder-locker-room-071044932.html

This is just another story about how Perkins helps out his team and teammates.

Doc and KG sure helped shape a good young man who is growing into a useful intelligent veteran.

Miss 'ya, Perk.

You do realize that he is arguably the worst starting C in the entire league, right?

And a bonafide Dwight and Bynum stopper.

No other center does THAT better.

That fact alone pretty much guarantees OKC's ticket is punched to the finals once again.

With all the respect in the world, Perkins ain't stopping anyone.

The excuse used to be that "this guy is a bad matchup for perk because he's too long and mobile and athletic."

Right now everyone is a bad matchup for perk. How would Perkins defend chris bosh on single coverage? Good luck with that.

But Perk wouldn't be on Bosh in single coverage - Serge would. OKC has always matched Perk up with the slowest big. And even with that he's not as immobile as you believe:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hHVszkaxZf4

And for all of Perk's supposed issues, he's still starting for one of the best teams in the NBA.

I guess Presti still has some faith in him.
Title: Re: Yeah, I wish we still had Perkins...
Post by: soap07 on December 06, 2012, 12:53:48 AM
Again, people understand that Kendrick Perkins can't rebound, pass, dribble or play offense right? And he's getting a lot of money to do that?

He hasn't had an above average PER since 2009-2010. Above average while getting paid between 8-10 mill a year.

His TRB% is 11 percent - a career low, and an embarrassment for a starting center. That's awful.

Quote
And for all of Perk's supposed issues, he's still starting for one of the best teams in the NBA.

I don't know why we don't resign Sasha or Larry Hughes then. They're not "supposed" issues. They're issues. A starting center who is a liability on one end of the floor, can't rebound and has bad knees has issues.


Quote
And a bonafide Dwight and Bynum stopper.

Yeah, because Andrew Bynum and Dwight Howard are causing so many headaches for defenses this year.

Quote
Perk might not be what he once was, but he still fulfills a very specific and difficult to fill role.  Intetior defenders are not easy to come by, not at his level.

A. Perkins is not the defender he used to be.
B. His role is actually fairly easy to fill.  The defense is marginally better on the court with him on it - it gives up 103 drtg with him off the floor - 102 with him on it. Offensively? OKC has an 111 ortg, compared to a 116 with him off it. Perkins is a net negative for the Thunder. On top of that, he doesn't rebound. He's a liability in two facets of the game - offensively and rebounding. Say what you want about Green - yes, he disappears. But he's not a liability in the way Perkins is now.
Title: Re: Yeah, I wish we still had Perkins...
Post by: KGs Knee on December 06, 2012, 01:33:58 AM
I must say, I can not help but laugh when someone uses cumulative stats to quantify Perk's performance, or, contributions.  His overall numbers will never look great, or likely, even good.

There are a few reasons for this.  First, yes, he just isn't as good as he was before the knee injury.  Second, there are not a large number of teams with "big" centers.  Many teams use PFs to masquerade as centers.

None of that matters once you are in the playoffs, going aganst guys like Howard, Marc Gasol, Tim Duncan, Bynum, etc.  Perk is still highly capable of defending these type of centers very well.  Being able to do so, in the playoffs, is worth its weight in gold.  Not many guys can.

Perk earns that $9m paycheck in just a handful of games, the rest of the time, he's just a great "veteran leader".

I'd gladly trade Green for him right now.  OKC wouldn't in a million years though.
Title: Re: Yeah, I wish we still had Perkins...
Post by: OsirusCeltics on December 06, 2012, 01:46:59 AM
Not necessarily Perkins himself, but a guy like Perkins
Big, physical body, who can rebound and set good screens

Just hope people don't think Perkins was so special as a player, and was the main reason Celtics won the title in 2008. Please oh please I hope not
Title: Re: Yeah, I wish we still had Perkins...
Post by: jdz101 on December 06, 2012, 02:03:57 AM
...even if we would have overpaid to keep him.

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/nba--kendrick-perkins-soothes-egos--resolves-issues-in-thunder-locker-room-071044932.html

This is just another story about how Perkins helps out his team and teammates.

Doc and KG sure helped shape a good young man who is growing into a useful intelligent veteran.

Miss 'ya, Perk.

You do realize that he is arguably the worst starting C in the entire league, right?

And a bonafide Dwight and Bynum stopper.

No other center does THAT better.

That fact alone pretty much guarantees OKC's ticket is punched to the finals once again.

With all the respect in the world, Perkins ain't stopping anyone.

The excuse used to be that "this guy is a bad matchup for perk because he's too long and mobile and athletic."

Right now everyone is a bad matchup for perk. How would Perkins defend chris bosh on single coverage? Good luck with that.

But Perk wouldn't be on Bosh in single coverage - Serge would. OKC has always matched Perk up with the slowest big. And even with that he's not as immobile as you believe:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hHVszkaxZf4

And for all of Perk's supposed issues, he's still starting for one of the best teams in the NBA.

I guess Presti still has some faith in him.

Who is the slowest big on the Miami heat if you put ibaka on bosh?
Title: Re: Yeah, I wish we still had Perkins...
Post by: mctyson on December 06, 2012, 07:08:40 AM
I must say, I can not help but laugh when someone uses cumulative stats to quantify Perk's performance, or, contributions.  His overall numbers will never look great, or likely, even good.

Then why do we even use stats at all?  Why do we use them to evaluate Ryan Hollins or Greg Stiesma?  Or - GASP - Jeff Green? 

Why not just use our own biased opinions about one player, because we are know-it-alls?  Make it all subjective, let's throw every stat out the window.

Why is Kendrick Perkins the exception to the rule that every other NBA or professional athlete is held to?
Title: Re: Yeah, I wish we still had Perkins...
Post by: jdz101 on December 06, 2012, 07:30:09 AM
I must say, I can not help but laugh when someone uses cumulative stats to quantify Perk's performance, or, contributions.  His overall numbers will never look great, or likely, even good.

Then why do we even use stats at all?  Why do we use them to evaluate Ryan Hollins or Greg Stiesma?  Or - GASP - Jeff Green? 

Why not just use our own biased opinions about one player, because we are know-it-alls?  Make it all subjective, let's throw every stat out the window.

Why is Kendrick Perkins the exception to the rule that every other NBA or professional athlete is held to?

Have a TP sir.

I love how stats dont lie when they're evaluating Jeff Green, but when it comes to Perk, he does immeasurable things.
Title: Re: Yeah, I wish we still had Perkins...
Post by: scaryjerry on December 06, 2012, 07:47:25 AM
yeah that Perkins guy will be totally useless in the west playoffs against guys like Tim Duncan, Zach Randolph, Dwight Howard and others..just put Nick Collison on them :-X

oh wait...

perk is a perfect fit with okc and his post defense will be extremely vital if the thunder want to make it back to the finals.
Title: Re: Yeah, I wish we still had Perkins...
Post by: scaryjerry on December 06, 2012, 07:49:33 AM
I must say, I can not help but laugh when someone uses cumulative stats to quantify Perk's performance, or, contributions.  His overall numbers will never look great, or likely, even good.

Then why do we even use stats at all?  Why do we use them to evaluate Ryan Hollins or Greg Stiesma?  Or - GASP - Jeff Green? 

Why not just use our own biased opinions about one player, because we are know-it-alls?  Make it all subjective, let's throw every stat out the window.

Why is Kendrick Perkins the exception to the rule that every other NBA or professional athlete is held to?

Have a TP sir.

I love how stats dont lie when they're evaluating Jeff Green, but when it comes to Perk, he does immeasurable things.

uh yeah that's because Jeff green doesn't bring anything that doesn't show up on the stat sheet and Perkins does? gee
Title: Re: Yeah, I wish we still had Perkins...
Post by: jdz101 on December 06, 2012, 07:15:52 PM
I must say, I can not help but laugh when someone uses cumulative stats to quantify Perk's performance, or, contributions.  His overall numbers will never look great, or likely, even good.

Then why do we even use stats at all?  Why do we use them to evaluate Ryan Hollins or Greg Stiesma?  Or - GASP - Jeff Green? 

Why not just use our own biased opinions about one player, because we are know-it-alls?  Make it all subjective, let's throw every stat out the window.

Why is Kendrick Perkins the exception to the rule that every other NBA or professional athlete is held to?

Have a TP sir.

I love how stats dont lie when they're evaluating Jeff Green, but when it comes to Perk, he does immeasurable things.

uh yeah that's because Jeff green doesn't bring anything that doesn't show up on the stat sheet and Perkins does? gee

Pretty convenient that there's no way to prove that.  :P
Title: Re: Yeah, I wish we still had Perkins...
Post by: Mr October on December 06, 2012, 07:19:12 PM
I wish the Celtics had the 2009 version of Perkins, the 2008 version of Posey, etc.

Those players aren't the same and haven't been for a long time.
Title: Re: Yeah, I wish we still had Perkins...
Post by: SHAQATTACK on December 06, 2012, 07:56:05 PM
Not necessarily Perkins himself, but a guy like Perkins
Big, physical body, who can rebound and set good screens


oh , you mean like Darko ? 
Title: Re: Yeah, I wish we still had Perkins...
Post by: Celtics4ever on December 06, 2012, 08:12:34 PM
Darko????  Now that was funny I didn't realize it was April's Fools Day.
Title: Re: Yeah, I wish we still had Perkins...
Post by: SHAQATTACK on December 06, 2012, 08:16:21 PM
Darko????  Now that was funny I didn't realize it was April's Fools Day.


Yup. that big strong tuff defense minded fellow about Perks size


I guess if Doc had wanted a Perk back he'd played Darko.
Title: Re: Yeah, I wish we still had Perkins...
Post by: D.o.s. on December 07, 2012, 01:06:29 AM
I wish the Celtics had the 2009 version of Perkins, the 2008 version of Posey, etc.

Those players aren't the same and haven't been for a long time.

TP for you sir.
Title: Re: Yeah, I wish we still had Perkins...
Post by: chambers on December 07, 2012, 03:27:37 AM
Perkins is a bum.
Nothing more to it.
He'll be traded with their 1st round pick from Houston and the Lamb kid+their own first round pick for Anderson Verajao  soon enough.
Title: Re: Yeah, I wish we still had Perkins...
Post by: mrpoundforpound on December 07, 2012, 06:38:08 PM
Ive been saying this and beatin this dead horse since the trade. Hated the trade then, hated the trade in the middle, still greatly hate the trade now. Perkins was our attitude, our chemistry, and a leader in our brotherhood. Loosing him was the Celtics biggest mistake of the last few years.

He's been injured and generally awful at 9 million a year since the trade. 2008 Perk is dead and buried, ever since he blew out that knee in 2010 he's been a shell of his former self. What makes you think that's any different had he stayed? our amazing medial staff  ???

I know people get nostalgic, and JG certainly isn't a knock out for us, but lets ask OCK how they feel about their 9 million dollar a year center.

oh, you want to amnistiy him you say? he doesn't see the floor late in games in favor of collision?

I have no desire to get perk back unless they toss in a dolorian that takes him back to pre knee injury, or he gets bought out and comes cheap.

JG is way better than Perkins and though not a steal still came at a cheap price considering his potential. He will be more than servicable in the year. I thought you were one of the few who supported jeff but i guess the influence of the board has gotten to you as well. I still believe he will be an all star maybe not this year but next year.
Title: Re: Yeah, I wish we still had Perkins...
Post by: mrpoundforpound on December 07, 2012, 06:39:41 PM
Ive been saying this and beatin this dead horse since the trade. Hated the trade then, hated the trade in the middle, still greatly hate the trade now. Perkins was our attitude, our chemistry, and a leader in our brotherhood. Loosing him was the Celtics biggest mistake of the last few years.

He's been injured and generally awful at 9 million a year since the trade. 2008 Perk is dead and buried, ever since he blew out that knee in 2010 he's been a shell of his former self. What makes you think that's any different had he stayed? our amazing medial staff  ???

I know people get nostalgic, and JG certainly isn't a knock out for us, but lets ask OCK how they feel about their 9 million dollar a year center.

oh, you want to amnistiy him you say? he doesn't see the floor late in games in favor of collision?

I have no desire to get perk back unless they toss in a dolorian that takes him back to pre knee injury, or he gets bought out and comes cheap.

Jeff green has been more consistently injured and generally more awful and needs to be mentored as opposed to being a mentor. He deserves more than Jeff green. Id rather have him then Jeff green.

at 9 million per? you'd rather have a defensive center who can no longer jump, which has limited him defensively?

In what way is that better?

I love perk, if he gets bought out/ amnistied by the thunder count me in for a cheap contract, but this whole "man, if we had perk we'd be a much tougher team inside" is a flawed argument.

Would they be tougher? sure, they can't get any softer, but for 9 million a year? no thanks. he wasen't worth that pre injury, and certainly isn't worth in with how he currently plays.

I would absolutely take it. I think Perk would have singed here for a little less, but look at any starting center in the league not on a rookie contract. They are pretty much all at or above 8 mil a year while most are making 10+ millions a year. Desagna Diop has a 7 mil expiring this year. For a center, thats the going rate. Overpriced? Yes. But it fills a needs.

True centers are hard to come by. Especially one who brings so much to your team off the court, in the locker room, and to your defense. When a teammates is trusted by your veterans, no matter how terrible they are on the offensive end, that plays a huge difference in the whole scheme of things. Back up swing men playing a reserve role are a lot easier to sign and are usually a lot cheaper.

At the time, and currently, we needed/need a player who can come in to play 15 minutes a game behind Pierce. Green fits the role terribly. Guys like Josh Howard, Matt Barnes, Peitrus, Corey Brewer etc... all would have done the job perfectly, and were all at one point available for us to obtain somehow. Green playing 15 - 20 minutes a game isn't going to benefit anyone from my eyes.

Matt barnes is horrible. There is a reason he was undrafted and jeff green is a top 5 pick and getting paid. the owners and managers see more to jeff beyond his box score.
Title: Re: Yeah, I wish we still had Perkins...
Post by: mrpoundforpound on December 07, 2012, 06:46:40 PM
I must say, I can not help but laugh when someone uses cumulative stats to quantify Perk's performance, or, contributions.  His overall numbers will never look great, or likely, even good.

Then why do we even use stats at all?  Why do we use them to evaluate Ryan Hollins or Greg Stiesma?  Or - GASP - Jeff Green? 

Why not just use our own biased opinions about one player, because we are know-it-alls?  Make it all subjective, let's throw every stat out the window.

Why is Kendrick Perkins the exception to the rule that every other NBA or professional athlete is held to?

Have a TP sir.

I love how stats dont lie when they're evaluating Jeff Green, but when it comes to Perk, he does immeasurable things.

Exactly we all know that what Jeff brings to this team goes way beyond his stats just like what Perkins does. He has the potential to be an all star as well which is something perkins will never have. Hes also younger.
Title: Re: Yeah, I wish we still had Perkins...
Post by: Celtics4ever on December 07, 2012, 08:34:03 PM
In retrospect, neither team won at this deal.
Title: Re: Yeah, I wish we still had Perkins...
Post by: jowwwman on December 07, 2012, 08:38:02 PM
In retrospect, neither team won at this deal.

OKC won by unloading their garbage onto us.
Title: Re: Yeah, I wish we still had Perkins...
Post by: mjokc on December 08, 2012, 01:51:48 AM
Perkins has definitely made his impact felt here in OKC.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JtBBgcT7aBw
Title: Re: Yeah, I wish we still had Perkins...
Post by: jdz101 on December 08, 2012, 01:55:22 AM
In retrospect, neither team won at this deal.

When you throw in the pick we won.
Title: Re: Yeah, I wish we still had Perkins...
Post by: vinnie on December 08, 2012, 11:51:44 AM
Perk looked good last night against the Lakers. Doing everything the Thunder need him to do -- setting great picks, playing tough defense, and continually irritating the hell out of the opponent. This team misses a lot of what Perk brings to the game.
Title: Re: Yeah, I wish we still had Perkins...
Post by: BudweiserCeltic on December 08, 2012, 11:58:39 AM
Perk looked good last night against the Lakers. Doing everything the Thunder need him to do -- setting great picks, playing tough defense, and continually irritating the hell out of the opponent. This team misses a lot of what Perk brings to the game.

That said, Howard grabbed 18 rebounds and went 9-17 shooting for 23 points, 3 assists, 1 block (and 6 TOs).

Perk went 0-2, 3 rebs, 2 assists, 1 block, 2 TOs, and 5 fouls in 23 minutes of play.

I don't think yesterday was a game to salivate over Perk about.
Title: Re: Yeah, I wish we still had Perkins...
Post by: crownsy on December 08, 2012, 12:05:52 PM
Perk looked good last night against the Lakers. Doing everything the Thunder need him to do -- setting great picks, playing tough defense, and continually irritating the hell out of the opponent. This team misses a lot of what Perk brings to the game.

Yea see above. what are you talking about?

he got murdered  ???

I think I can find the above stat line vs howard for less than 10 mill a year.
Title: Re: Yeah, I wish we still had Perkins...
Post by: vinnie on December 08, 2012, 06:03:51 PM
Perk looked good last night against the Lakers. Doing everything the Thunder need him to do -- setting great picks, playing tough defense, and continually irritating the hell out of the opponent. This team misses a lot of what Perk brings to the game.

Yea see above. what are you talking about?

he got murdered  ???

I think I can find the above stat line vs howard for less than 10 mill a year.

Who won the game? Once again, we resort to stats when we talk about Perk. Where did I say I wanted to pay Perk $10 million a year and wanted him back? What I did say is the Celts miss the attitude and toughness that a guy like Perk brings to a team. But wait, there is no stat like that, so I guess I don't know anything about basketball.  ::)
Title: Re: Yeah, I wish we still had Perkins...
Post by: j804 on December 08, 2012, 06:11:18 PM
Perk looked good last night against the Lakers. Doing everything the Thunder need him to do -- setting great picks, playing tough defense, and continually irritating the hell out of the opponent. This team misses a lot of what Perk brings to the game.

Yea see above. what are you talking about?

he got murdered  ???

I think I can find the above stat line vs howard for less than 10 mill a year.
Stat lines don't tell everything other than in the first quarter a bit Howard was not a factor at all and Perkins along with Collison were a reason why
Title: Re: Yeah, I wish we still had Perkins...
Post by: TripleOT on December 09, 2012, 08:48:17 PM

I think I can find the above stat line vs howard for less than 10 mill a year.

How many times are you going to inflate the amount of money Perk makes?  Can you post a link for the number you are using, or are you purposely misstating his salary to bolster your argument. 

Here's a link to NBA salaries

http://hoopshype.com/salaries.htm

Here's another one

http://storytellerscontracts.info/

Here's Perk's deal with OKC

2012-2013 $8.3m per Storytellers, $7.8m per Hoopshype


In this thread, you claimed

He's been injured and generally awful at 9 million a year since the trade.

they got rid of harden BECAUSE of perk. Perks 9/mill per limited them in what they could offer Harden. you really think they don't want a do over on that one?

His cap hit is $8.9m next yer per Storytellers.

Do you have a different site where you get these salary numbers?


Title: Re: Yeah, I wish we still had Perkins...
Post by: chambers on December 09, 2012, 09:15:53 PM
Perk looked good last night against the Lakers. Doing everything the Thunder need him to do -- setting great picks, playing tough defense, and continually irritating the hell out of the opponent. This team misses a lot of what Perk brings to the game.
Did Perk play in the second half?
He was garbage in the first half.
Title: Re: Yeah, I wish we still had Perkins...
Post by: jdz101 on December 09, 2012, 09:18:08 PM
Perk looked good last night against the Lakers. Doing everything the Thunder need him to do -- setting great picks, playing tough defense, and continually irritating the hell out of the opponent. This team misses a lot of what Perk brings to the game.

Perkins was terrible in that game.

In no way did he change what howard was going to get offensively.
Title: Re: Yeah, I wish we still had Perkins...
Post by: crownsy on December 09, 2012, 09:27:29 PM

I think I can find the above stat line vs howard for less than 10 mill a year.

How many times are you going to inflate the amount of money Perk makes?  Can you post a link for the number you are using, or are you purposely misstating his salary to bolster your argument. 

Here's a link to NBA salaries

http://hoopshype.com/salaries.htm

Here's another one

http://storytellerscontracts.info/

Here's Perk's deal with OKC

2012-2013 $8.3m per Storytellers, $7.8m per Hoopshype


In this thread, you claimed

He's been injured and generally awful at 9 million a year since the trade.

they got rid of harden BECAUSE of perk. Perks 9/mill per limited them in what they could offer Harden. you really think they don't want a do over on that one?

His cap hit is $8.9m next yer per Storytellers.

Do you have a different site where you get these salary numbers?

Sorry, I missed on his cap hit by a million, a TP for your research.

Let me rephrase. I can find a guy to play defense and have a much better statline than that against howard for 8.3 million this year, and 8.9 next year.

Savvy?
Title: Re: Yeah, I wish we still had Perkins...
Post by: SHAQATTACK on December 09, 2012, 09:29:37 PM
Perk looked good last night against the Lakers. Doing everything the Thunder need him to do -- setting great picks, playing tough defense, and continually irritating the hell out of the opponent. This team misses a lot of what Perk brings to the game.

 

Perkins was terrible in that game.

In no way did he change what howard was going to get offensively.

True this , I love Perk and wish he wasn't traded, but he sucked so bad , total non factor......Perk was there ...thats about I can say.... Durrant , West Brook and Ibaka destroyed the Lakers .  I thought OKC was going to fall asleep it was so easy stomping LA.

Title: Re: Yeah, I wish we still had Perkins...
Post by: crownsy on December 09, 2012, 09:33:24 PM
Perk looked good last night against the Lakers. Doing everything the Thunder need him to do -- setting great picks, playing tough defense, and continually irritating the hell out of the opponent. This team misses a lot of what Perk brings to the game.

Yea see above. what are you talking about?

he got murdered  ???

I think I can find the above stat line vs howard for less than 10 mill a year.

Who won the game? Once again, we resort to stats when we talk about Perk. Where did I say I wanted to pay Perk $10 million a year and wanted him back? What I did say is the Celts miss the attitude and toughness that a guy like Perk brings to a team. But wait, there is no stat like that, so I guess I don't know anything about basketball.  ::)

are you honestly going to sit here and say his awful play was actually good because "they won the game?"

they won the game because they have 3 dominate players in Durant, Westbrook and Ibaka.

And a TP for you as well good sir, I have apparently offended the nostialga crowd by misspeaking on his deal by a mill. I will again rephrase.

Post 2010, he is not worth his 8.3/8.9 Million cap hit.

This does not, since it will be the first thing thrown at me, mean I have a hard on for Jeff green or the trade in general.

This means I am a realist, and actually watch that team, and he is not good right now, at this moment. It doesn't diminish the player he was during the Championship run and beyond, but that guys gone, at least for now.

I love the big fella, I dearly hope he will return to pre-ACL injury form at some point, but that injury was a long time ago and he hasen't regained his lift, so I'm beginning to lose that hope.

This whole staunch "you can't say bad stuff about perk, remember 2007-2010!!!!?" movement reminds me SO MUCH of leon. you couldn't point out how he was a different player after the injury without people coming out of the wood work to tell you how stupid you were.  ::)

Title: Re: Yeah, I wish we still had Perkins...
Post by: tenn_smoothie on December 09, 2012, 09:56:48 PM
Ive been saying this and beatin this dead horse since the trade. Hated the trade then, hated the trade in the middle, still greatly hate the trade now. Perkins was our attitude, our chemistry, and a leader in our brotherhood. Loosing him was the Celtics biggest mistake of the last few years.

absolutely - we have missed him on & off the court since Danny gave him away - i still say the Celts win the title in 2011 if Danny doesn't try to get clever with the worst trade since John Y was here.
Title: Re: Yeah, I wish we still had Perkins...
Post by: European NBA fan on December 09, 2012, 10:14:59 PM

I think I can find the above stat line vs howard for less than 10 mill a year.

How many times are you going to inflate the amount of money Perk makes?  Can you post a link for the number you are using, or are you purposely misstating his salary to bolster your argument. 

Here's a link to NBA salaries

http://hoopshype.com/salaries.htm

Here's another one

http://storytellerscontracts.info/

Here's Perk's deal with OKC

2012-2013 $8.3m per Storytellers, $7.8m per Hoopshype


In this thread, you claimed

He's been injured and generally awful at 9 million a year since the trade.

they got rid of harden BECAUSE of perk. Perks 9/mill per limited them in what they could offer Harden. you really think they don't want a do over on that one?

His cap hit is $8.9m next yer per Storytellers.

Do you have a different site where you get these salary numbers?

Shamsports.com and Hoopsworld.com are usually the most accurate along with Storytellers. Hoopshype probably doesn't include likely incentives.

Storytellers', Shamsports' and Hoopsworld's numbers:
This Season: 8.3 M $
2013-14: 9.0 M $ (8.977 should be rounded up, not down)
2014-15: 9.7 M $
So 9 M $/year seems to be a fair call. Or 8.6 M $/year if you include last season.
Title: Re: Yeah, I wish we still had Perkins...
Post by: jdz101 on December 09, 2012, 10:19:20 PM
Ive been saying this and beatin this dead horse since the trade. Hated the trade then, hated the trade in the middle, still greatly hate the trade now. Perkins was our attitude, our chemistry, and a leader in our brotherhood. Loosing him was the Celtics biggest mistake of the last few years.

absolutely - we have missed him on & off the court since Danny gave him away - i still say the Celts win the title in 2011 if Danny doesn't try to get clever with the worst trade since John Y was here.

If we're missing slow ineptitude im pretty sure we could grab eddy curry from somewhere.
Title: Re: Yeah, I wish we still had Perkins...
Post by: vinnie on December 10, 2012, 12:49:26 PM
The OKC Thunder made it to the NBA Finals last year and are tied for the best record in the NBA this year, in spite of the slow, untalented, worthless, joke of a center they start each game. And, it is amazing to me how stupid they are. They still start this guy every game despite how poorly they have played since they got him. I would fire the GM and coach right now. I mean seriously. You would think that they could start a 260-pound piece of cement at center and have a better record than they do starting Perkins. What a stupid organization.
Title: Re: Yeah, I wish we still had Perkins...
Post by: LooseCannon on December 10, 2012, 12:53:53 PM
Do they play Perk at the end of games?
Title: Re: Yeah, I wish we still had Perkins...
Post by: vinnie on December 10, 2012, 12:54:52 PM
Do they play Perk at the end of games?

They have the ones I have watched this year.
Title: Re: Yeah, I wish we still had Perkins...
Post by: D.o.s. on December 10, 2012, 01:04:01 PM
Ive been saying this and beatin this dead horse since the trade. Hated the trade then, hated the trade in the middle, still greatly hate the trade now. Perkins was our attitude, our chemistry, and a leader in our brotherhood. Loosing him was the Celtics biggest mistake of the last few years.

absolutely - we have missed him on & off the court since Danny gave him away - i still say the Celts win the title in 2011 if Danny doesn't try to get clever with the worst trade since John Y was here.

But who plays backup SF after 'Quis goes down with that spinal injury?
Title: Re: Yeah, I wish we still had Perkins...
Post by: kozlodoev on December 10, 2012, 01:20:47 PM
...even if we would have overpaid to keep him.

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/nba--kendrick-perkins-soothes-egos--resolves-issues-in-thunder-locker-room-071044932.html

This is just another story about how Perkins helps out his team and teammates.

Doc and KG sure helped shape a good young man who is growing into a useful intelligent veteran.

Miss 'ya, Perk.
And I wish we had a team which didn't need a babysitter.
Title: Re: Yeah, I wish we still had Perkins...
Post by: SHAQATTACK on December 10, 2012, 02:13:00 PM
Perk does a good job of staying out of the way of Durrant  and letting the other four guys play the game. He is a huge cheerleader and tuff man who has everybodies back. Durrant is built like a twig.   

He is sorta just there as the 5 man on the court...sorta a place keeper... ;D

Still would take Perk back over Collins....I just LOVE Perks scowl ....priceless.   I love Perk staring down the Heat players.

Bring him back DA 
Title: Re: Yeah, I wish we still had Perkins...
Post by: pearljammer10 on December 10, 2012, 02:20:26 PM
Ive been saying this and beatin this dead horse since the trade. Hated the trade then, hated the trade in the middle, still greatly hate the trade now. Perkins was our attitude, our chemistry, and a leader in our brotherhood. Loosing him was the Celtics biggest mistake of the last few years.

absolutely - we have missed him on & off the court since Danny gave him away - i still say the Celts win the title in 2011 if Danny doesn't try to get clever with the worst trade since John Y was here.

But who plays backup SF after 'Quis goes down with that spinal injury?

We could have easily replaced Quis' 5 points and 2 rebounds and 19 minutes a game by a number of players in the free agency market.
Title: Re: Yeah, I wish we still had Perkins...
Post by: TripleOT on December 10, 2012, 02:23:05 PM
BTW, the Oklahoman beat writer has Perk earning $7.8m a year. Last night, Perk held Roy Hibbert to 10 points on 9 shots, and 6 rebounds.  Perk had 4 points on 2 shots and 9 rebounds.

Perk also did a solid job in the final minutes, pulling down a bunch of defensive rebounds. 

The Thunder are now 89-23 since jettisoning Jeff Green. I'm sure none of this success has to do with Perkins.     
Title: Re: Yeah, I wish we still had Perkins...
Post by: kozlodoev on December 10, 2012, 03:05:13 PM
The Thunder are now 89-23 since jettisoning Jeff Green. I'm sure none of this success has to do with Perkins.     
Yes, I'm sure it's because of Perkins, who's clearly half the player he was before the injury (to the extent to which one-on-one defense has become his only tangible skill), and nothing to do with the emergence of Westbrook, Durant, and Ibaka.  Not to mention Harden, while he was there ::)

If I could have those three, I'd give Jeff Green back to OKC _and_ let them keep Perkins.
Title: Re: Yeah, I wish we still had Perkins...
Post by: jdz101 on December 10, 2012, 03:37:39 PM
BTW, the Oklahoman beat writer has Perk earning $7.8m a year. Last night, Perk held Roy Hibbert to 10 points on 9 shots, and 6 rebounds.  Perk had 4 points on 2 shots and 9 rebounds.

Perk also did a solid job in the final minutes, pulling down a bunch of defensive rebounds. 

The Thunder are now 89-23 since jettisoning Jeff Green. I'm sure none of this success has to do with Perkins.     

That's what Hibberts been getting anyway, with or without Perkins.

How'd they go against D.west?
Title: Re: Yeah, I wish we still had Perkins...
Post by: scaryjerry on December 10, 2012, 04:07:35 PM
The Thunder are now 89-23 since jettisoning Jeff Green. I'm sure none of this success has to do with Perkins.     
Yes, I'm sure it's because of Perkins, who's clearly half the player he was before the injury (to the extent to which one-on-one defense has become his only tangible skill), and nothing to do with the emergence of Westbrook, Durant, and Ibaka.  Not to mention Harden, while he was there ::)

If I could have those three, I'd give Jeff Green back to OKC _and_ let them keep Perkins.

Perkins has helped those guys grow off the floor and has been a leader on the floor does the dirty work and lets them get all the glory which they do deserve because they're great players but every Jordan needs his rodman(I realize hes not Dennis)....they have no one else who can defend Roy hibbert, Tim Duncan, zach randolph and others....Perkins has helped them in ways his stats wont tell you....why cant you except it? They're going nowhere in the west playoffs without him playing well alongside ibaka against the great frointcourts in the west.
Title: Re: Yeah, I wish we still had Perkins...
Post by: kozlodoev on December 11, 2012, 09:53:18 AM
The Thunder are now 89-23 since jettisoning Jeff Green. I'm sure none of this success has to do with Perkins.     
Yes, I'm sure it's because of Perkins, who's clearly half the player he was before the injury (to the extent to which one-on-one defense has become his only tangible skill), and nothing to do with the emergence of Westbrook, Durant, and Ibaka.  Not to mention Harden, while he was there ::)

If I could have those three, I'd give Jeff Green back to OKC _and_ let them keep Perkins.

Perkins has helped those guys grow off the floor and has been a leader on the floor does the dirty work and lets them get all the glory which they do deserve because they're great players but every Jordan needs his rodman(I realize hes not Dennis)....they have no one else who can defend Roy hibbert, Tim Duncan, zach randolph and others....Perkins has helped them in ways his stats wont tell you....why cant you except it? They're going nowhere in the west playoffs without him playing well alongside ibaka against the great frointcourts in the west.
Oh, I can accept that he's helped them. You should probably accept you're vastly overrating how much he's helped them. That team lives and dies by Durant, Westbrook and Ibaka, make no mistake.

Also, Jordan won three titles without Rodman, for whatever that comparison's worth (the Thunder haven't really won anything yet).
Title: Re: Yeah, I wish we still had Perkins...
Post by: wdleehi on December 11, 2012, 10:00:33 AM
The Thunder are now 89-23 since jettisoning Jeff Green. I'm sure none of this success has to do with Perkins.     
Yes, I'm sure it's because of Perkins, who's clearly half the player he was before the injury (to the extent to which one-on-one defense has become his only tangible skill), and nothing to do with the emergence of Westbrook, Durant, and Ibaka.  Not to mention Harden, while he was there ::)

If I could have those three, I'd give Jeff Green back to OKC _and_ let them keep Perkins.

Perkins has helped those guys grow off the floor and has been a leader on the floor does the dirty work and lets them get all the glory which they do deserve because they're great players but every Jordan needs his rodman(I realize hes not Dennis)....they have no one else who can defend Roy hibbert, Tim Duncan, zach randolph and others....Perkins has helped them in ways his stats wont tell you....why cant you except it? They're going nowhere in the west playoffs without him playing well alongside ibaka against the great frointcourts in the west.
Oh, I can accept that he's helped them. You should probably accept you're vastly overrating how much he's helped them. That team lives and dies by Durant, Westbrook and Ibaka, make no mistake.

Also, Jordan won three titles without Rodman, for whatever that comparison's worth (the Thunder haven't really won anything yet).


He had other guys doing the dirty work then (Cartwright, Grant, Scott Williams and Purdue)
Title: Re: Yeah, I wish we still had Perkins...
Post by: kozlodoev on December 11, 2012, 10:47:26 AM
Sti
He had other guys doing the dirty work then (Cartwright, Grant, Scott Williams and Purdue)
Durant had Sefolosha, Mohammed, and Jeff Green to do the dirty work.
Title: Re: Yeah, I wish we still had Perkins...
Post by: wdleehi on December 11, 2012, 11:22:32 AM
Sti
He had other guys doing the dirty work then (Cartwright, Grant, Scott Williams and Purdue)
Durant had Sefolosha, Mohammed, and Jeff Green to do the dirty work.


Two of those guys are swingmen and one is not very good. 
Title: Re: Yeah, I wish we still had Perkins...
Post by: kozlodoev on December 11, 2012, 11:27:16 AM
Sti
He had other guys doing the dirty work then (Cartwright, Grant, Scott Williams and Purdue)
Durant had Sefolosha, Mohammed, and Jeff Green to do the dirty work.


Two of those guys are swingmen and one is not very good.
Dennis Rodman was a perimeter defender, and Williams and Perdue were not very good.
Title: Re: Yeah, I wish we still had Perkins...
Post by: wdleehi on December 11, 2012, 12:19:36 PM
Sti
He had other guys doing the dirty work then (Cartwright, Grant, Scott Williams and Purdue)
Durant had Sefolosha, Mohammed, and Jeff Green to do the dirty work.


Two of those guys are swingmen and one is not very good.
Dennis Rodman was a perimeter defender, and Williams and Perdue were not very good.


Rodman was a anywhere defender.  He was a big time rebounder. 

Perdue was a good backup C/PF.  That's why he played the role on title teams in Chicago and SA. 


Williams was good. 
Title: Re: Yeah, I wish we still had Perkins...
Post by: kozlodoev on December 11, 2012, 12:24:33 PM
Williams was good.
I find it hard to fathom how you can claim this, given that Nazr Mohammed has been, throughout his career, unquestionably a better player than Scott Williams.

Guess there's no point trying to convince you that the role of Perkins in OKC's success is not as large as many think.
Title: Re: Yeah, I wish we still had Perkins...
Post by: wdleehi on December 11, 2012, 12:32:14 PM
Williams was good.
I find it hard to fathom how you can claim this, given that Nazr Mohammed has been, throughout his career, unquestionably a better player than Scott Williams.

Guess there's no point trying to convince you that the role of Perkins in OKC's success is not as large as many think.


Good is overstating it.


He played his roll off the bench for that team. 





Perkins helps his team.  He plays a roll for them they did not have before the trade.  He is giving something that has improved a playoff team to a contender. 


No one is saying the Thunder are winning just because of Perk.  They are saying the trade that brought them Perk has made them a better team. 
Title: Re: Yeah, I wish we still had Perkins...
Post by: kozlodoev on December 11, 2012, 12:42:30 PM
No one is saying the Thunder are winning just because of Perk.  They are saying the trade that brought them Perk has made them a better team.
Actually I thought someone did just that by pointing out that they have 80 wins since the trade. I have no doubt they were made a better team -- they gave up a redundant piece for a player that addresses a need. But I'd say that 90% of the Thunder's is attributed to the emergence of Westbrook, Durant, Harden and Ibaka. That team would have probably been able to get 70 wins with someone like Brendan Haywood, Zaza Pachulia, or Emeka Okafor instead of Perkins.
Title: Re: Yeah, I wish we still had Perkins...
Post by: SHAQATTACK on December 11, 2012, 01:04:43 PM
No one is saying the Thunder are winning just because of Perk.  They are saying the trade that brought them Perk has made them a better team.
Actually I thought someone did just that by pointing out that they have 80 wins since the trade. I have no doubt they were made a better team -- they gave up a redundant piece for a player that addresses a need. But I'd say that 90% of the Thunder's is attributed to the emergence of Westbrook, Durant, Harden and Ibaka. That team would have probably been able to get 70 wins with someone like Brendan Haywood, Zaza Pachulia, or Emeka Okafor instead of Perkins.

exactly. !!   Thunder are more sucessful and continue to become better in spite of Perk happening to be their big man , than because of any significant contributions he has made. 

Alot of the OKC sucess is just all the guys maturing and playing better as a team.
Title: Re: Yeah, I wish we still had Perkins...
Post by: wdleehi on December 11, 2012, 01:48:47 PM
No one is saying the Thunder are winning just because of Perk.  They are saying the trade that brought them Perk has made them a better team.
Actually I thought someone did just that by pointing out that they have 80 wins since the trade. I have no doubt they were made a better team -- they gave up a redundant piece for a player that addresses a need. But I'd say that 90% of the Thunder's is attributed to the emergence of Westbrook, Durant, Harden and Ibaka. That team would have probably been able to get 70 wins with someone like Brendan Haywood, Zaza Pachulia, or Emeka Okafor instead of Perkins.

exactly. !!   Thunder are more sucessful and continue to become better in spite of Perk happening to be their big man , than because of any significant contributions he has made. 

Alot of the OKC sucess is just all the guys maturing and playing better as a team.


And they all rapidly matured the second the trade happened. 


That sounds like quite the miracle coincidence. 
Title: Re: Yeah, I wish we still had Perkins...
Post by: kozlodoev on December 11, 2012, 02:06:06 PM
And they all rapidly matured the second the trade happened. 

That sounds like quite the miracle coincidence.
Nope. You seem to be ignoring the fact that the team was already very good for a while before Perkins even played a game, as evidenced by their 92-55 record in the season and three quarters prior to his debut.

More specifically, they had 50 wins the prior season, and were on track for 52 wins prior to getting Perkins (and finished with 55). Then they were on track for 58 wins in the lockout season, and are likely to win 60+ this year.

So yeah, maybe adding Perkins got resulted in a couple of extra wins each season. But nothing "miraculously" happened the minute they made the trade. The evidence for gradual improvement, likely due to their best players coming into their own, much stronger.
Title: Re: Yeah, I wish we still had Perkins...
Post by: wdleehi on December 11, 2012, 02:24:15 PM
And they all rapidly matured the second the trade happened. 

That sounds like quite the miracle coincidence.
Nope. You seem to be ignoring the fact that the team was already very good for a while before Perkins even played a game, as evidenced by their 92-55 record in the season and three quarters prior to his debut.

More specifically, they had 50 wins the prior season, and were on track for 52 wins prior to getting Perkins (and finished with 55). Then they were on track for 58 wins in the lockout season, and are likely to win 60+ this year.

So yeah, maybe adding Perkins got resulted in a couple of extra wins each season. But nothing "miraculously" happened the minute they made the trade. The evidence for gradual improvement, likely due to their best players coming into their own, much stronger.


What ignoring? 


I called them a playoff team before the trade?


I said the trade pushed them from playoff team (a strong one at that) to contender. 
Title: Re: Yeah, I wish we still had Perkins...
Post by: pearljammer10 on December 11, 2012, 02:33:32 PM
No one is saying the Thunder are winning just because of Perk.  They are saying the trade that brought them Perk has made them a better team.
Actually I thought someone did just that by pointing out that they have 80 wins since the trade. I have no doubt they were made a better team -- they gave up a redundant piece for a player that addresses a need. But I'd say that 90% of the Thunder's is attributed to the emergence of Westbrook, Durant, Harden and Ibaka. That team would have probably been able to get 70 wins with someone like Brendan Haywood, Zaza Pachulia, or Emeka Okafor instead of Perkins.

To relate the same scenario to the 08 Celts. I think the Celts have a much harder time winning the 08 championship with one of these three replacing perk in  the playoffs.
Title: Re: Yeah, I wish we still had Perkins...
Post by: LooseCannon on December 11, 2012, 02:35:43 PM
The Celtics also have a much harder time winning the 08 championship with 12-13 Perkins replacing 08 Perkins.
Title: Re: Yeah, I wish we still had Perkins...
Post by: kozlodoev on December 11, 2012, 02:36:46 PM
And they all rapidly matured the second the trade happened. 

That sounds like quite the miracle coincidence.
Nope. You seem to be ignoring the fact that the team was already very good for a while before Perkins even played a game, as evidenced by their 92-55 record in the season and three quarters prior to his debut.

More specifically, they had 50 wins the prior season, and were on track for 52 wins prior to getting Perkins (and finished with 55). Then they were on track for 58 wins in the lockout season, and are likely to win 60+ this year.

So yeah, maybe adding Perkins got resulted in a couple of extra wins each season. But nothing "miraculously" happened the minute they made the trade. The evidence for gradual improvement, likely due to their best players coming into their own, much stronger.


What ignoring? 


I called them a playoff team before the trade?


I said the trade pushed them from playoff team (a strong one at that) to contender.
So what's the "miracle coincidence" you're talking about? There's miracle, because there's no coincidence. Their team improved gradually over time, it didn't magically transform with the advent of Perkins.

The fact that they managed to drop the rapidly calcifying remains of Nazr Mohammed from the starting lineup was a piece in that. But it didn't "push" them into anything that another average NBA center wouldn't have.
Title: Re: Yeah, I wish we still had Perkins...
Post by: kozlodoev on December 11, 2012, 02:38:26 PM
The Celtics also have a much harder time winning the 08 championship with 12-13 Perkins replacing 08 Perkins.
I love Perk as much as the next guy, but the injury reduced him from a difference-maker on defense to an average, at best, contributor.
Title: Re: Yeah, I wish we still had Perkins...
Post by: D.o.s. on December 11, 2012, 02:58:16 PM
No one is saying the Thunder are winning just because of Perk.  They are saying the trade that brought them Perk has made them a better team.
Actually I thought someone did just that by pointing out that they have 80 wins since the trade. I have no doubt they were made a better team -- they gave up a redundant piece for a player that addresses a need. But I'd say that 90% of the Thunder's is attributed to the emergence of Westbrook, Durant, Harden and Ibaka. That team would have probably been able to get 70 wins with someone like Brendan Haywood, Zaza Pachulia, or Emeka Okafor instead of Perkins.

To relate the same scenario to the 08 Celts. I think the Celts have a much harder time winning the 08 championship with one of these three replacing perk in  the playoffs.

This is either brilliant, borderline Kaufman posting, or sheer laziness.

The Perk trade helped the Thunder peak because they were able to give Harden and Ibaka more minutes, and those guys responded by growing into the players Presti and Brooks believed they could be.

That's why Danny was angling for Harden instead--his ceiling is/was much higher than Jeff Green. But the minute Marquis went down we needed a backup SF, and JG was the best one available.
Title: Re: Yeah, I wish we still had Perkins...
Post by: TripleOT on December 11, 2012, 03:08:54 PM
I really have to question whether people posting in this thread actually watch a lot of Thunder games.  They talk about Perkins and his "injury" like he's walking around with a cane or something. 

This season, Perk is moving around pretty well, and is going a lot of the things he did in Boston - setting picks, mucking up the paint, boxing out, rebounding, playing team defense and bodying up low post offensive players. 

He takes very few shots, 3.6 a game, and only grabs a rebound every five minutes, but his rebounding role in OKC is to seal off the opposing big man, and let either skinny Ibaka or Durant sky to clear the glass.  That's their scheme, and it works for them. They're a team rebounding team, and they rely on their centers Perk and Collison primarily as box out guys.

Perk fills a vital role on OKC both on the court and in the locker room.  Critics can poo poo that role, and point to stats to bolster their argument, but everything I hear out of OKC is that they' re thrilled with Perkins. 

Basketball is a team game, and good synergy goes a long way. OKC, with Perkins instead of Green, has good synergy.  Boston, with Green instead of Perkins, has bad synergy.  That's undeniable.     
Title: Re: Yeah, I wish we still had Perkins...
Post by: wdleehi on December 11, 2012, 03:26:48 PM
And they all rapidly matured the second the trade happened. 

That sounds like quite the miracle coincidence.
Nope. You seem to be ignoring the fact that the team was already very good for a while before Perkins even played a game, as evidenced by their 92-55 record in the season and three quarters prior to his debut.

More specifically, they had 50 wins the prior season, and were on track for 52 wins prior to getting Perkins (and finished with 55). Then they were on track for 58 wins in the lockout season, and are likely to win 60+ this year.

So yeah, maybe adding Perkins got resulted in a couple of extra wins each season. But nothing "miraculously" happened the minute they made the trade. The evidence for gradual improvement, likely due to their best players coming into their own, much stronger.


What ignoring? 


I called them a playoff team before the trade?


I said the trade pushed them from playoff team (a strong one at that) to contender.
So what's the "miracle coincidence" you're talking about? There's miracle, because there's no coincidence. Their team improved gradually over time, it didn't magically transform with the advent of Perkins.

The fact that they managed to drop the rapidly calcifying remains of Nazr Mohammed from the starting lineup was a piece in that. But it didn't "push" them into anything that another average NBA center wouldn't have.


Response to this.

Quote
Thunder are more sucessful and continue to become better in spite of Perk


and

Quote
sucess is just all the guys maturing and playing better as a team.



Which magically happened when the trade happened. 



Perkins completed that teams inside.  He filled a leadership role.  The Thunder improved because of it. 


Title: Re: Yeah, I wish we still had Perkins...
Post by: kozlodoev on December 11, 2012, 03:28:52 PM
I really have to question whether people posting in this thread actually watch a lot of Thunder games.  They talk about Perkins and his "injury" like he's walking around with a cane or something. 

This season, Perk is moving around pretty well, and is going a lot of the things he did in Boston - setting picks, mucking up the paint, boxing out, rebounding, playing team defense and bodying up low post offensive players. 
I have to question this as purely subjective, as nothing I've seen supports it. Perkins' PER has markedly dropped since the injury. Moreover, last year, he was giving up 15 PER to opposing counterpart while having a 9 PER himself. This year, the situation is even worse (19 and 11).

Somewhat surprisingly, his rebounding rate has stayed the same over time. But he's no longer blocking shots, and his FG% has fallen off a cliff.

You can harp about his "mentoring role" all you want, but swap Zaza Pachulia for Perkins, and the Thunder will still be a contender.
Title: Re: Yeah, I wish we still had Perkins...
Post by: kozlodoev on December 11, 2012, 03:30:49 PM
Response to this.

Quote
Thunder are more sucessful and continue to become better in spite of Perk


and

Quote
sucess is just all the guys maturing and playing better as a team.



Which magically happened when the trade happened. 



Perkins completed that teams inside.  He filled a leadership role.  The Thunder improved because of it.
1. I did not say this. Someone else did.

and

2. The maturation is a process that started long before Perk arrived, and has seemingly been continuing at a steady pace for the last ~4 years.
Title: Re: Yeah, I wish we still had Perkins...
Post by: wdleehi on December 11, 2012, 03:34:13 PM
Response to this.

Quote
Thunder are more sucessful and continue to become better in spite of Perk


and

Quote
sucess is just all the guys maturing and playing better as a team.



Which magically happened when the trade happened. 



Perkins completed that teams inside.  He filled a leadership role.  The Thunder improved because of it.
1. I did not say this.

and

2. The maturation is a process that started long before Perk arrived, and has seemingly been continuing at a steady pace for the last ~4 years.


I know you didn't say it, but the quote you took of mine was a response to those quotes of another poster.
 

I agree the Thunder players have been maturing.  Just like I agree the talent level of the Thunder players.


The addition of Perkins improved their team.  They are happy about it. 
Title: Re: Yeah, I wish we still had Perkins...
Post by: D.o.s. on December 11, 2012, 07:05:05 PM
Response to this.

Quote
Thunder are more sucessful and continue to become better in spite of Perk


and

Quote
sucess is just all the guys maturing and playing better as a team.



Which magically happened when the trade happened. 



Perkins completed that teams inside.  He filled a leadership role.  The Thunder improved because of it.
1. I did not say this.

and

2. The maturation is a process that started long before Perk arrived, and has seemingly been continuing at a steady pace for the last ~4 years.


I know you didn't say it, but the quote you took of mine was a response to those quotes of another poster.
 

I agree the Thunder players have been maturing.  Just like I agree the talent level of the Thunder players.


The addition of Perkins improved their team.  They are happy about it.

Sure, but it was addition by subtraction. Perk (as a player) was relatively unimportant to the trade.
Title: Re: Yeah, I wish we still had Perkins...
Post by: wdleehi on December 11, 2012, 08:43:28 PM
Response to this.

Quote
Thunder are more sucessful and continue to become better in spite of Perk


and

Quote
sucess is just all the guys maturing and playing better as a team.



Which magically happened when the trade happened. 



Perkins completed that teams inside.  He filled a leadership role.  The Thunder improved because of it.
1. I did not say this.

and

2. The maturation is a process that started long before Perk arrived, and has seemingly been continuing at a steady pace for the last ~4 years.


I know you didn't say it, but the quote you took of mine was a response to those quotes of another poster.
 

I agree the Thunder players have been maturing.  Just like I agree the talent level of the Thunder players.


The addition of Perkins improved their team.  They are happy about it.

Sure, but it was addition by subtraction. Perk (as a player) was relatively unimportant to the trade.


I take it you are not a Green fan.
Title: Re: Yeah, I wish we still had Perkins...
Post by: Edgar on December 11, 2012, 08:45:29 PM
Response to this.

Quote
Thunder are more sucessful and continue to become better in spite of Perk


and

Quote
sucess is just all the guys maturing and playing better as a team.



Which magically happened when the trade happened. 



Perkins completed that teams inside.  He filled a leadership role.  The Thunder improved because of it.
1. I did not say this.

and

2. The maturation is a process that started long before Perk arrived, and has seemingly been continuing at a steady pace for the last ~4 years.


I know you didn't say it, but the quote you took of mine was a response to those quotes of another poster.
 

I agree the Thunder players have been maturing.  Just like I agree the talent level of the Thunder players.


The addition of Perkins improved their team.  They are happy about it.

Sure, but it was addition by subtraction. Perk (as a player) was relatively unimportant to the trade.
he filled a role.............

just like.............
in here
Title: Re: Yeah, I wish we still had Perkins...
Post by: D.o.s. on December 11, 2012, 09:08:00 PM
Response to this.

Quote
Thunder are more sucessful and continue to become better in spite of Perk


and

Quote
sucess is just all the guys maturing and playing better as a team.



Which magically happened when the trade happened. 



Perkins completed that teams inside.  He filled a leadership role.  The Thunder improved because of it.
1. I did not say this.

and

2. The maturation is a process that started long before Perk arrived, and has seemingly been continuing at a steady pace for the last ~4 years.


I know you didn't say it, but the quote you took of mine was a response to those quotes of another poster.
 

I agree the Thunder players have been maturing.  Just like I agree the talent level of the Thunder players.


The addition of Perkins improved their team.  They are happy about it.

Sure, but it was addition by subtraction. Perk (as a player) was relatively unimportant to the trade.


I take it you are not a Green fan.

I'm actually solidly in the Green camp. I think he's a much better fit for our team as we transition out of the KG/Pierce era and really start to key our team around Rondo. I thought the trade was a good idea (aside from the timing, but we needed a wing in the worst way possible).

The addition by subtraction comment was for the Thunder--for that roster, at that time, moving Green so Harden and Ibaka could get more minutes made perfect sense. The fact that they got Perkins to replace Mohammed was icing on the cake, but that's all it was--icing.
Title: Re: Yeah, I wish we still had Perkins...
Post by: mctyson on December 12, 2012, 07:32:04 AM
I have to question this as purely subjective, as nothing I've seen supports it. Perkins' PER has markedly dropped since the injury. Moreover, last year, he was giving up 15 PER to opposing counterpart while having a 9 PER himself. This year, the situation is even worse (19 and 11).

Somewhat surprisingly, his rebounding rate has stayed the same over time. But he's no longer blocking shots, and his FG% has fallen off a cliff.

You can harp about his "mentoring role" all you want, but swap Zaza Pachulia for Perkins, and the Thunder will still be a contender.

I posted in this thread that Perk, using PER stats, is arguably one of the worst starting Centers in the league.  He has been for a few years now.

On Celticsblog, Perk defenders will constantly rebut any measure of Perk's play using conventional or advanced stats with subjective accounts of his greatness.  This is what happens when your primary contribution as a player is setting illegal picks, dropping passes, and missing free throws.  Defenders will talk about how great a leader he is, how he mentors OKC's benchwarmers, how he is mean and tough and scowls and rotates well on defense. 

The main stat they will use to back this up is OKC's record, and how they are a "better team" with since the day OKC traded for Perk.  Of course, there is no direct causal link - we could also say that OKC simply has gotten better as their stars have gained experience and Perk has simply gone along for the ride (much like he did in Boston.)  The one thing we do know, for certain, is that his production the past few years has been his worst since he became a starter in the league.  He is getting worse, not better, and his contract will be a terrible burden for OKC in the near future.  Actually, it already is.

Title: Re: Yeah, I wish we still had Perkins...
Post by: Celtics4ever on December 12, 2012, 07:39:08 AM
That ship has sailed.

I too think Perk was a little more than mediocre on the boards and offensively.  He could play some D though and I liked his personality.

Trouble is today, there are not many centers.  So a guy like Perk looks better than what he is in reality and then you have the whole home town fan thing going.
Title: Re: Yeah, I wish we still had Perkins...
Post by: TripleOT on December 12, 2012, 12:42:43 PM
I have to question this as purely subjective, as nothing I've seen supports it. Perkins' PER has markedly dropped since the injury. Moreover, last year, he was giving up 15 PER to opposing counterpart while having a 9 PER himself. This year, the situation is even worse (19 and 11).

Somewhat surprisingly, his rebounding rate has stayed the same over time. But he's no longer blocking shots, and his FG% has fallen off a cliff.

You can harp about his "mentoring role" all you want, but swap Zaza Pachulia for Perkins, and the Thunder will still be a contender.

I posted in this thread that Perk, using PER stats, is arguably one of the worst starting Centers in the league.  He has been for a few years now.

On Celticsblog, Perk defenders will constantly rebut any measure of Perk's play using conventional or advanced stats with subjective accounts of his greatness.  This is what happens when your primary contribution as a player is setting illegal picks, dropping passes, and missing free throws.  Defenders will talk about how great a leader he is, how he mentors OKC's benchwarmers, how he is mean and tough and scowls and rotates well on defense. 

The main stat they will use to back this up is OKC's record, and how they are a "better team" with since the day OKC traded for Perk.  Of course, there is no direct causal link - we could also say that OKC simply has gotten better as their stars have gained experience and Perk has simply gone along for the ride (much like he did in Boston.)  The one thing we do know, for certain, is that his production the past few years has been his worst since he became a starter in the league.  He is getting worse, not better, and his contract will be a terrible burden for OKC in the near future.  Actually, it already is.

If this is the case, why is almost everything I head or read out of OKC the opposite?  Why did Wojo take the time to write an entire column about Perk's positive influence on the Thunder?  Why are KD and Westbrooks so happy with Perkins?

I see the Perkins issue as a litmus test on fans.  Do you truly understand NBA basketball, how physical it is and how important it is to have a paint presence?  Or are you more of a stat guy, who is sued to suing stats to form your opinion? 

Advanced statistics has been the rage lately with the NBA, but basketball isn't like baseball.  The teamwork that goes on in basketball is different than baseball.  There's no stat that shows how many times a Perkins type boxed out the other team's best rebounder so that Westbrooks or KD could pull down a defensive rebound.    One can look at points per 100 possessions, but there isn't a true metric (that I know of anyways) to figure out how important a Perkins setting solid screens all game affects an opponents defense (especially later in games after running into him a bunch of times already).

The 89-24 record since OKC traded for Perk tells me a couple of things that are indisputable.  Jettisoning Jeff Green and Nedad Kristic, two soft players, and adding Perk and Muhammed, two physical players, changed the culture of the team.  Opening up more minutes and more of a role for Ibaka and Harden made the team more potent. Putting a wide body next to Ibaka helped him, as did having a widebody playing next to KG when Perk was in Boston.  Perkins championship pedigree and mentorship has helped the Thunder.

We can debate about Perk forever (and we probably will) but as long as that team wins around 80% of its games with Perkins as their starting center and "tough guy," I'm going to give him some credit for it.

As we (should have) learned in 2008, it's essential to have tough role players willing to do the dirty work on a championship team.   

 
Title: Re: Yeah, I wish we still had Perkins...
Post by: RyNye on December 12, 2012, 01:18:20 PM
As we (should have) learned in 2008, it's essential to have tough role players willing to do the dirty work on a championship team.   

I don't think it is essential to have a tough role player. It's a load of hogwash. There have been plenty of championship teams without an enforcer or anything similar (the Spurs, the Heat, etc.).

That said, I think it is a matter of systems. In the Boston system, Perk, although not a very good basketball player, had an important role. His style of play (regardless of how you qualify it as tough or what have you) just happened to fit alongside KG and our defensive scheme. The biggest proof of this is the 2010 Finals, and our team performance pre- and post-injury.

You can't just plug Perk in on any team to fill that role, because he honestly isn't talented enough to adapt his play to fill even slightly different roles. Although his locker room presence may be welcomed in OKC, his on-court performance has mostly hurt them, unfortunately. Maybe it is because of the injury, but I think it has a lot more to do with the fact that he just isn't suited for their system as much as he was in Boston.

It irritates me when people say shallow things like "WE NEED AN ENFORCER LOL LOL". It's completely meaningless to say stuff like that. It has nothing to do with intimidation or being tough, it has to do with understanding and fitting the system, which Perk did once upon a time. No more, no less.
Title: Re: Yeah, I wish we still had Perkins...
Post by: Brendan on December 12, 2012, 01:55:16 PM
That said, I think it is a matter of systems. In the Boston system, Perk, although not a very good basketball player, had an important role. His style of play (regardless of how you qualify it as tough or what have you) just happened to fit alongside KG and our defensive scheme. The biggest proof of this is the 2010 Finals, and our team performance pre- and post-injury.
2010 finals? You mean the one game sample, where after going 3-3 over the previous 6 games, the Celts had and lost a lead, where PP and RA couldn't hit a shot, but Artest couldn't miss?

Hardly proves the point.

I think we were a better team in 2011 when Shaq was healthy over Perk playing - (and Shaq 2011 was not close to Shaq 2000 or even Shaq 2006). A better summary IMO would be that Perk's glaring weaknesses were very well covered by the remaining starters in Boston - allowing his strengths to be taken advantage of. That was a unique situation, and his value is much lower elsewhere and even here would be less now than then.

If they magically added Shaq in place of Darko during training camp, I think Perk would have been KGs backup. At least that would've been the best use/role for him.
Title: Re: Yeah, I wish we still had Perkins...
Post by: Who on December 12, 2012, 02:16:59 PM
That said, I think it is a matter of systems. In the Boston system, Perk, although not a very good basketball player, had an important role. His style of play (regardless of how you qualify it as tough or what have you) just happened to fit alongside KG and our defensive scheme. The biggest proof of this is the 2010 Finals, and our team performance pre- and post-injury.
2010 finals? You mean the one game sample, where after going 3-3 over the previous 6 games, the Celts had and lost a lead, where PP and RA couldn't hit a shot, but Artest couldn't miss?

Hardly proves the point.

I think we were a better team in 2011 when Shaq was healthy over Perk playing - (and Shaq 2011 was not close to Shaq 2000 or even Shaq 2006). A better summary IMO would be that Perk's glaring weaknesses were very well covered by the remaining starters in Boston - allowing his strengths to be taken advantage of. That was a unique situation, and his value is much lower elsewhere and even here would be less now than then.

If they magically added Shaq in place of Darko during training camp, I think Perk would have been KGs backup. At least that would've been the best use/role for him.

I think Perk's strengths and weaknesses are well compensated for and necessary to the success of the Oklahoma City Thunder.

Mainly Ibaka. That is the most important partnership for Perk and for Oklahoma's team defense. Ibaka lacks the physical size/bulk to handle bigger opponents + Ibaka's main strength is ability to roam defensively and create havoc with his team defense. To block and alter shots.

Perk's physical power based defense is the perfect complement to Ibaka's roaming defense. And likewise, Ibaka's quick footed defense is a necessary complement to Perk's plodding ways.

They need each other. They maximize one another's defensive skill-sets ... oh, and rebounding - with Perk great at boxing out and Ibaka brilliant at multiple effort plays and pulling down rebounds out of his area.

It was the same with Ben Wallace. He always preferred to play alongside someone with physical size/power who freed him up to roam defensively. It made him much more effective as a defender. Especially later in his career during the Chicago and Cleveland years. 

Offensively also, Ibaka's midrange and long two point jump-shooting is key to providing adequate spacing for his rest of the lineup. Without Ibaka's jump-shooting, Perk's limitations offensively would be a much larger issue.

Oklahoma have the right personnel and do a great job of incorporating and building around both Perkins' strengths and his weaknesses. Especially Ibaka. Ibaka and Perk do a great deal to help one another succeed on the court. They have a great partnership.
Title: Re: Yeah, I wish we still had Perkins...
Post by: mctyson on December 12, 2012, 06:27:42 PM
If this is the case, why is almost everything I head or read out of OKC the opposite?  Why did Wojo take the time to write an entire column about Perk's positive influence on the Thunder?  Why are KD and Westbrooks so happy with Perkins?

I see the Perkins issue as a litmus test on fans.  Do you truly understand NBA basketball, how physical it is and how important it is to have a paint presence?  Or are you more of a stat guy, who is sued to suing stats to form your opinion? 

Advanced statistics has been the rage lately with the NBA, but basketball isn't like baseball.  The teamwork that goes on in basketball is different than baseball.  There's no stat that shows how many times a Perkins type boxed out the other team's best rebounder so that Westbrooks or KD could pull down a defensive rebound.    One can look at points per 100 possessions, but there isn't a true metric (that I know of anyways) to figure out how important a Perkins setting solid screens all game affects an opponents defense (especially later in games after running into him a bunch of times already).

The 89-24 record since OKC traded for Perk tells me a couple of things that are indisputable.  Jettisoning Jeff Green and Nedad Kristic, two soft players, and adding Perk and Muhammed, two physical players, changed the culture of the team.  Opening up more minutes and more of a role for Ibaka and Harden made the team more potent. Putting a wide body next to Ibaka helped him, as did having a widebody playing next to KG when Perk was in Boston.  Perkins championship pedigree and mentorship has helped the Thunder.

We can debate about Perk forever (and we probably will) but as long as that team wins around 80% of its games with Perkins as their starting center and "tough guy," I'm going to give him some credit for it.

As we (should have) learned in 2008, it's essential to have tough role players willing to do the dirty work on a championship team.   

I will ignore the not-so-subtle swipe that, because I use basic numbers to backup my opinions - opinions I derive from watching the NBA - that somehow I do not "truly understand NBA basketball."

I had season tickets before I left MA.  This was 2006-2007.  You know, the year they won less than 30% of their games, set a record for consecutive losses, etc.  I didn't see them win one game that year.  I left halfway through the season.

Perkins was on that team.  It was his 4th year in the league.  He was awful.  He did not play any role in making that team better.  In fact, he was a main reason they only won 24 games.  He had a PER of 9.5, the worst of his career up to that point.  He was playing 21 minutes a game.

Fast forward to next year - he is playing 24 minutes a game, an increase for sure, but nothing major.  The team wins 66 games, wins the NBA championship, and the rest is history.  Perk puts up a PER of 13.3, a much better year than the previous, but similar to the numbers he put up in 2005 and 2004.  In no way do I attribute his play on that 07-08 team to them winning a championship.  They won that year because of Kevin Garnett and Ray Allen.

Fast forward some more to this year.  Perk has put up PERs of 9.1, 8.7, and now 10 in his 3 seasons in OKC.  His offensive rebounds, defensive rebounds, blocks, and points are at all time lows for him.  He is actually producing less than the year the C's won 24 games.

Perks best years as a player were beside KG and being coached by Doc.  I understand why Celtics fans are attached to Perk.  He was a big, chubby, young high school kid who shaped himself into the best possible player he could ever be.  Plus, from what I read, he is a really nice person.  But the facts are that he has always been a very poor starting NBA center by almost every possible measure.  He is now paid close to $10M a year by OKC to be that very poor player, and OKC most likely had to trade James Harden (a member of our Olympic squad) to avoid using the amnesty clause on a guy they signed just 2 years ago.

The 89-24 record OKC had since Perk arrive tells me one thing:  Kevin Durant and Brian Westbrook and Serge Ibaka and (formerly) Harden are awesome.  That team would be where they are with Perkins, Pachulia, Kristic, or Nick Collison.  I'd bet the ranch on that.
Title: Re: Yeah, I wish we still had Perkins...
Post by: GreenFaith1819 on December 12, 2012, 06:35:37 PM
Quote
That team would be where they are with Perkins, Pachulia, Kristic, or Nick Collison.  I'd bet the ranch on that.

So could Pachulia, Kristic or Nick Collison defend Dwight or Bynum?
Title: Re: Yeah, I wish we still had Perkins...
Post by: kozlodoev on December 12, 2012, 06:57:30 PM
Quote
That team would be where they are with Perkins, Pachulia, Kristic, or Nick Collison.  I'd bet the ranch on that.

So could Pachulia, Kristic or Nick Collison defend Dwight or Bynum?
I hear both Bynum and Howard have been bounced from the playoffs recently by teams that didn't have Kendrick Perkins. Shocker.
Title: Re: Yeah, I wish we still had Perkins...
Post by: pearljammer10 on December 12, 2012, 07:01:49 PM
Quote
That team would be where they are with Perkins, Pachulia, Kristic, or Nick Collison.  I'd bet the ranch on that.

So could Pachulia, Kristic or Nick Collison defend Dwight or Bynum?
I hear both Bynum and Howard have been bounced from the playoffs recently by teams that didn't have Kendrick Perkins. Shocker.

We had Kristic. We sucked with him. Perk stays instead of Kristic and we'd have number 18.
Title: Re: Yeah, I wish we still had Perkins...
Post by: kozlodoev on December 12, 2012, 07:07:25 PM
Quote
That team would be where they are with Perkins, Pachulia, Kristic, or Nick Collison.  I'd bet the ranch on that.

So could Pachulia, Kristic or Nick Collison defend Dwight or Bynum?
I hear both Bynum and Howard have been bounced from the playoffs recently by teams that didn't have Kendrick Perkins. Shocker.

We had Kristic. We sucked with him. Perk stays instead of Kristic and we'd have number 18.
Leaving aside the fact that this statement is quite questionable, how is it related to the success of OKC?
Title: Re: Yeah, I wish we still had Perkins...
Post by: SHAQATTACK on December 12, 2012, 07:07:45 PM
Quote
That team would be where they are with Perkins, Pachulia, Kristic, or Nick Collison.  I'd bet the ranch on that.

So could Pachulia, Kristic or Nick Collison defend Dwight or Bynum?
I hear both Bynum and Howard have been bounced from the playoffs recently by teams that didn't have Kendrick Perkins. Shocker.

We had Kristic. We sucked with him. Perk stays instead of Kristic and we'd have number 18.


I 'd felt better about our chanced going for the banner with Perk .  Never cared for no-nads
Title: Re: Yeah, I wish we still had Perkins...
Post by: GreenFaith1819 on December 12, 2012, 07:19:36 PM
Quote
That team would be where they are with Perkins, Pachulia, Kristic, or Nick Collison.  I'd bet the ranch on that.

So could Pachulia, Kristic or Nick Collison defend Dwight or Bynum?
I hear both Bynum and Howard have been bounced from the playoffs recently by teams that didn't have Kendrick Perkins. Shocker.

Haha.

C'mon now, Kozlodoev...you watched OKC-LA in 2010-11 and 11-12, just like the rest of us.

The job that Perk (and Serge) did on Pau-Drew basically negated LA's strength, which WAS their twin towers.

Perk held Bynum to relatively modest gains in that series. He had a similar effect last yr. If OKC-LA meet again, and Pau and Dwight are still together, Kendrick-Serge stand a great shot at beating them once again - regardless of what Nash does.

Give him credit. He plays his role well - so well, in fact, that I bet that if you sat down with Sam Presti he'd tell you that he is ECSTATIC about Kendrick Perkins, his leadership, him anchoring OKC's defense, etc, etc...

I think the rub with Perk is that some of us here just find it hard to believe that, for once in a while -

Statistics just don't matter.
Title: Re: Yeah, I wish we still had Perkins...
Post by: TripleOT on December 12, 2012, 07:48:19 PM

I will ignore the not-so-subtle swipe that, because I use basic numbers to backup my opinions - opinions I derive from watching the NBA - that somehow I do not "truly understand NBA basketball."

I had season tickets before I left MA.  This was 2006-2007.  You know, the year they won less than 30% of their games, set a record for consecutive losses, etc.  I didn't see them win one game that year.  I left halfway through the season.

Perkins was on that team.  It was his 4th year in the league.  He was awful.  He did not play any role in making that team better.  In fact, he was a main reason they only won 24 games.  He had a PER of 9.5, the worst of his career up to that point.  He was playing 21 minutes a game.

Fast forward to next year - he is playing 24 minutes a game, an increase for sure, but nothing major.  The team wins 66 games, wins the NBA championship, and the rest is history.  Perk puts up a PER of 13.3, a much better year than the previous, but similar to the numbers he put up in 2005 and 2004.  In no way do I attribute his play on that 07-08 team to them winning a championship.  They won that year because of Kevin Garnett and Ray Allen.

Fast forward some more to this year.  Perk has put up PERs of 9.1, 8.7, and now 10 in his 3 seasons in OKC.  His offensive rebounds, defensive rebounds, blocks, and points are at all time lows for him.  He is actually producing less than the year the C's won 24 games.

Perks best years as a player were beside KG and being coached by Doc.  I understand why Celtics fans are attached to Perk.  He was a big, chubby, young high school kid who shaped himself into the best possible player he could ever be.  Plus, from what I read, he is a really nice person.  But the facts are that he has always been a very poor starting NBA center by almost every possible measure.  He is now paid close to $10M a year by OKC to be that very poor player, and OKC most likely had to trade James Harden (a member of our Olympic squad) to avoid using the amnesty clause on a guy they signed just 2 years ago.

The 89-24 record OKC had since Perk arrive tells me one thing:  Kevin Durant and Brian Westbrook and Serge Ibaka and (formerly) Harden are awesome.  That team would be where they are with Perkins, Pachulia, Kristic, or Nick Collison.  I'd bet the ranch on that.

I went to many of the games in 07-08 and all the home playoff games, sitting 13 rows from the court.  It was apparent to me that the physicality Perk brought to the starting line up allowed KG to freelance for boards.  Perk boxed out, KG rose up for rebounds.  The past couple of years, KG has had to battle the hoards of offensive bigs crashing the boards because there's no big bodies playing next to him (KG is horrendous at boxing out). Is there a stat for that? Do you really think there's no value having a guy who can seal off the other team's big man on the boards? 

How about a guy who can play low post defense? I love how the stat heads who deride Perk never pull up that stat. One article I read quoted a Synergy Sports stat saying that Perk allowed only .77 points per shot in the post and held his opponent to 38% shooting. Can Krstic do that?

If a team can defend the low post one on one, it totally changes what the offense has to do to score. In a conference with a good amount of low post threats, there's a lot of value in that - about $7.8 million.

I know one way to settle this argument.  What do Pierce, Rondo and KG think about it?  I'm guessing the'd be in the pro-Perkins camp. I know KG benefits from playing next to a widebody.         

BTW, Perk makes $7.8m a year.  That's no where near $10m. 


Title: Re: Yeah, I wish we still had Perkins...
Post by: TripleOT on December 13, 2012, 06:50:25 PM
90-24 since jettisoning Jeff Green and adding Perkins. 
Title: Re: Yeah, I wish we still had Perkins...
Post by: European NBA fan on December 13, 2012, 08:27:31 PM
         

BTW, Perk makes $7.8m a year.  That's no where near $10m.

He makes $8.3 M this year, $9.0 M next year and $9.7 M the year after. You are using the numbers without likely incentives.