CelticsStrong
Celtics Basketball => Celtics Talk => Topic started by: OttawaCeltic on December 01, 2012, 09:45:35 AM
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I am not a Green defender or anything, but for the sake of accuracy, let's look at his game logs.
It is tough to really define what a "good" game is versus a bad one, but I gave it a shot.
Here are his good games this season:
19 pts / 3 rebounds / 2 assists / 4 steals / 1 block (vs Portland)
17 pts / 2 rebounds / 1 steal / 1 block (vs OKC)
9 pts / 2 rebounds / 2 assists (vs Toronto)
16 pts / 4 rebounds / 2 assists (vs Utah)
7 pts / 5 rebounds (vs Chicago, only 15 minutes of action)
12 pts / 3 rebounds / 1 steal / 2 blocks (vs Milwaukee)
11 pts / 2 rebounds / 1 steal (vs Washington)
11 pts / 1 rebound / 2 steals / 1 block (vs. Milwaukee)
So that's 8 good games by my fairly arbitrary standards. In these 8 games, he is averaging:
12.75 pts / 2.75 rebounds / .75 assists / 1.125 steals / .625 blocks
In his other 8 games, the bad ones, he is averaging
4 pts / 2.4 rebounds / .75 assists / .125 steals / .375 blocks
The Celtics are 7-1 in Jeff's good games, and 2-6 in his bad games.
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yes, I think he is. last night is the reason green is being paid 9million$...the guy is freakishly athletic and with a couple of moves can generally get by his man.
the thing is he has to KEEP doing it, and do it consistently.
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As Ive been saying all season, when Green gets big minutes he can produce like this. He needs to be in the game for long stretches because he will never be an instant offense guy, he needs minutes to get into his rhythm. Last night he played the entire 2nd quarter and he had his best stretch of basketball this season.
He is never going to be able to produce in spurts of 3 and 4 minutes at a time but if we can find him minutes to leave him in for long stretches he is going to continue to play like this.
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reduce PP minutes. Does Doc have the guts?
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reduce PP minutes. Does Doc have the guts?
He wouldn't even play Darko. I doubt it.
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reduce PP minutes. Does Doc have the guts?
He wouldn't even play Darko. I doubt it.
What makes you think Darko was any good?
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reduce PP minutes. Does Doc have the guts?
He wouldn't even play Darko. I doubt it.
What makes you think Darko was any good?
Thank you for asking that. Darko's performance on the court (at all of his stops) never measured up with the expectations of many on this forum.
There really is no evidence that Darko was any good.
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reduce PP minutes. Does Doc have the guts?
Doc had the guts to bench Ray for the rest of the season over a 2nd year guy.
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I think he needs to produce for us to be successful, but he's not the "X-Factor." As long as he gives us 10-12 points, 5-7 rebounds, and solid defense, he'll be fine. He''s certainly not trash.
They keys to this year are health and chemistry. Keeping our guys on the court is a given, but chemistry takes time. One of the main reasons we were able to compete the last five years was because Rondo, KG, Pierce, and Allen developed great on-court chemistry. This year's squad needs to find a rhythm in order to compete for the chip.
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As Ive been saying all season, when Green gets big minutes he can produce like this. He needs to be in the game for long stretches because he will never be an instant offense guy, he needs minutes to get into his rhythm. Last night he played the entire 2nd quarter and he had his best stretch of basketball this season.
He is never going to be able to produce in spurts of 3 and 4 minutes at a time but if we can find him minutes to leave him in for long stretches he is going to continue to play like this.
I didn't see much of the game although I did see some of Green's play. But you have to ask, does he do well when he gets more minutes, or does he get more minutes because he was playing well?
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I am not a Green defender or anything, but for the sake of accuracy, let's look at his game logs.
It is tough to really define what a "good" game is versus a bad one, but I gave it a shot.
Here are his good games this season:
19 pts / 3 rebounds / 2 assists / 4 steals / 1 block (vs Portland)
17 pts / 2 rebounds / 1 steal / 1 block (vs OKC)
9 pts / 2 rebounds / 2 assists (vs Toronto)
16 pts / 4 rebounds / 2 assists (vs Utah)
7 pts / 5 rebounds (vs Chicago, only 15 minutes of action)
12 pts / 3 rebounds / 1 steal / 2 blocks (vs Milwaukee)
11 pts / 2 rebounds / 1 steal (vs Washington)
11 pts / 1 rebound / 2 steals / 1 block (vs. Milwaukee)
So that's 8 good games by my fairly arbitrary standards. In these 8 games, he is averaging:
12.75 pts / 2.75 rebounds / .75 assists / 1.125 steals / .625 blocks
In his other 8 games, the bad ones, he is averaging
4 pts / 2.4 rebounds / .75 assists / .125 steals / .375 blocks
The Celtics are 7-1 in Jeff's good games, and 2-6 in his bad games.
What concerns me about his bad games is that they were against the superior teams, the teams that we really need him for (except for Det and Orl):
MIA
Phil
Brooklyn
Brooklyn
SA
Orlando
Detroit
The only quality team that he had a good game against is OKC, and that was kind of a "see what you gave up" message from him to his old team.
He obviously has the talent, that's every night. But he doesn't have the fire that he brought against his former team every night.
KG has got to make him cry like Big Baby. That seemed to work for Davis, maybe it will work for Green.
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He is an X-factor who sometimes plays like trash.
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reduce PP minutes. Does Doc have the guts?
I 'm now on the bandwagon for Green starting at few games to see if it helps , and Pierce comming off the bench. Pierce is still "KING" and most important , but.... Green just seems to have trouble comming in cold . It might be better to get GREEN off to a good start and then play Pierce , who can seem to turn up the wick sooner.
Might be that if Green is provide offense the Celtics expect...he may have to start some.
DOC should AT LEAST give it a shot a few games and see what happens. ???? ???
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reduce PP minutes. Does Doc have the guts?
I 'm now on the bandwagon for Green starting at few games to see if it helps , and Pierce comming off the bench. Pierce is still "KING" and most important , but.... Green just seems to have trouble comming in cold . It might be better to get GREEN off to a good start and then play Pierce , who can seem to turn up the wick sooner.
Might be that if Green is provide offense the Celtics expect...he may have to start some.
DOC should AT LEAST give it a shot a few games and see what happens. ???? ???
I agree with this. I also agree with the OP yesterday who suggested Green start alongside Pierce at the 2-3.
On D, Green has the athleticism to guard the opponents 2. On O, one of Pierce/Green could post up and present problems for the 2 who is guarding them or just shoot over them. If the opponent has a big 2, like Joe Johnson, that's a or better matchup for us than Lee/Jet or even Bradley on him.
When Pierce gets tired, move Green to the 3, bring in Jet and we're good to go.
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We need Jeff Green to be more consistent, and that will come with time.
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reduce PP minutes. Does Doc have the guts?
I 'm now on the bandwagon for Green starting at few games to see if it helps , and Pierce comming off the bench. Pierce is still "KING" and most important , but.... Green just seems to have trouble comming in cold . It might be better to get GREEN off to a good start and then play Pierce , who can seem to turn up the wick sooner.
Might be that if Green is provide offense the Celtics expect...he may have to start some.
DOC should AT LEAST give it a shot a few games and see what happens. ???? ???
I agree with this. I also agree with the OP yesterday who suggested Green start alongside Pierce at the 2-3.
On D, Green has the athleticism to guard the opponents 2. On O, one of Pierce/Green could post up and present problems for the 2 who is guarding them or just shoot over them. If the opponent has a big 2, like Joe Johnson, that's a or better matchup for us than Lee/Jet or even Bradley on him.
When Pierce gets tired, move Green to the 3, bring in Jet and we're good to go.
I'd love to start Green and Pierce, but our wing roster is not built for that. Maybe when Bradley returns, or if you want to use more Joseph instead of Barbosa.
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As Ive been saying all season, when Green gets big minutes he can produce like this. He needs to be in the game for long stretches because he will never be an instant offense guy, he needs minutes to get into his rhythm. Last night he played the entire 2nd quarter and he had his best stretch of basketball this season.
He is never going to be able to produce in spurts of 3 and 4 minutes at a time but if we can find him minutes to leave him in for long stretches he is going to continue to play like this.
I didn't see much of the game although I did see some of Green's play. But you have to ask, does he do well when he gets more minutes, or does he get more minutes because he was playing well?
thats a good question, but I think doc needs to give him consistent minutes to get him going....it seemed like early in the season one night he would get 30 and the next 15...its hard to build a rhythm that way
no matter how many bricks hes shooting up, Bass still gets his minutes/shots. guys like Terry/Barbosa are guys who can just come off the bench and hit 3 shots in a row(as we saw barbosa score something like 11points in 4minutes)
Green seems more like the sort of guy that takes alittle while to get going, but once he does you cant stop him
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I'm on board with Green starting over Pierce. I think they could cut Barbosa out of the rotation and play something like this:
Rondo (36) / Terry (12)
Lee (24) / Terry (18) / Pierce (6)
Green (28) / Pierce (20)
Sully (22) / Bass (24) / Pierce (2)
KG (28) / Wilcox (20)
(Sully, Bass, Wilcox are basically interchangeable.)
I'm not convinced it will improve the team, but absent a trade I think its the best chance to improve the overall team performance.
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I don't think starting Green is necessary or beneficial. Pierce is not he dominant force he once was, but there us still no one else on this team who can take over games in spurts the way Pierce can. When he decides to turn it on he is practically impossible to defend
I definitely think Green is our X factor though. IMHO this Celtics team will go as Jeff goes. Far as bench scorers go Terry is a handful for any team once he gets hot - very tough to stop. We have all seen what Green is capable of when he gets hot. Imagine if Green plays like that consistently AND Terry continues to play the way he has...and both of those guys are coming off our bench? What second unit in this league could compete with that? You're talking 30 points off the bench from two guys.
I think both Terry and Jeff need 28-30 minutes off the bench to really give their best for us.
I'm thinking something like this:
PG: Rondo (32), Terry (8), Barbosa (8)
SG: Lee (28), Terry (20)
SF: Pierce (28), Green (20)
PF: Bass (20), Sullinger (20), Green (8)
C: Garnett (28), Wilcox (20)
This puts both Terry and Green at starter-like minutes (28 per night) while is also gives Pierce and Rondo more rest which I think is needed. Also much as I like seeing Bass start, I don't think he's done any more that Sullinger to earn minutes. I'd start Bass (veteran respect) but split the playing time between he and Sully. I think Sully (like Green) is more effective when he gets solid playing time.
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well, another solid game from Green.
18points, 6rebounds in 24 minutes off the bench.
I was interested to see how he would play after his performance in Portland last night.
has he flipped the switch? I can only hope so because he makes our offense alot better.
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Green has been solid 3 out of the last 5 games and for the first time this year he put together back-to-back good outings. He is going to need to do this on a regular basis for this team to have any shot at anything. That and another big man, Danny.
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You can tell when his confidence is there, not only does he rebound and shoot the rock alot better, but his high bball IQ shows through alot more.
Is he our best scorer?
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Green has been solid 3 out of the last 5 games and for the first time this year he put together back-to-back good outings. He is going to need to do this on a regular basis for this team to have any shot at anything.
If he can have a good, solid game around half the time and have the rest of his appearances be mainly mediocre games with few true stinkers, he would be a very useful player who, if not worth his contract, would be overpaid by only a few million with reason to believe he can be better next season.
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You can tell when his confidence is there, not only does he rebound and shoot the rock alot better, but his high bball IQ shows through alot more.
Is he our best scorer?
Not our best scorer by any stretch. That said now his jumper is falling and his corner 3, he has no trouble scoring 10-12 in a quarter, which is definitely making him more explosive as a scorer than some of the older guys.
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I couldn't watch tonight, but what the heck happened? His boxscore looks great til you see his plus minus. Was his defense atrocious, or was he solid but the unit terrible?
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I couldn't watch tonight, but what the heck happened? His boxscore looks great til you see his plus minus. Was his defense atrocious, or was he solid but the unit terrible?
He didn't do much wrong.
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You can tell when his confidence is there, not only does he rebound and shoot the rock alot better, but his high bball IQ shows through alot more.
Is he our best scorer?
Not our best scorer by any stretch. That said now his jumper is falling and his corner 3, he has no trouble scoring 10-12 in a quarter, which is definitely making him more explosive as a scorer than some of the older guys.
If he attempted shots at the same clip as pierce he easily could be. His efficiency is absurdly good when hes in his rhythm and hes as good a slasher as anyone on this team.
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I couldn't watch tonight, but what the heck happened? His boxscore looks great til you see his plus minus. Was his defense atrocious, or was he solid but the unit terrible?
Things pretty much went downhill for the team as a whole after the opening stretch when they were up 17-0.
So I'd say it's not really his fault more than anybody else.
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I couldn't watch tonight, but what the heck happened? His boxscore looks great til you see his plus minus. Was his defense atrocious, or was he solid but the unit terrible?
His units were terrible. But also consider that the Bucks have one of the more productive benches in the league. But yeah, Collins 14 minutes, Bad-Barbosa playing, Sullinger couldn't do much today, etc.
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reduce PP minutes. Does Doc have the guts?
He wouldn't even play Darko. I doubt it.
What makes you think Darko was any good?
or not injured (wrist)?
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Green is definitely one of our best and most versatile scorers. And it's not really that close.
He has the quickness/explosiveness, shooting touch, and some nice footwork. If Pierce still had any quickness or explosiveness at all, then the nod goes to PP, but Green is a more potent offensive weapon right now.
I'm not sure beyond Pierce who would even be in the conversation.
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Anyone find it funny that in the past five games we've seen Jeff Green's three best games of the season and his two worst as well?
Anyway, Green's showing confidence and more cohesion with the squad. What I'm wondering is that if this is just the beginning of something great or just a tease? Green had stretches of great play in 2011 too and I distinctly remember Thunder fans telling me that Green's fatal flaw is consistency.
If Green does continue to play like this the Celtics are in good hands for this year and beyond. Unfortunately that puts a lot of pressure on the guy who folded in pressure times with the C's last year.
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He certainly could be the x factor. If he can continue to play at the level he has the last two games, he'd be the sixth man of the year.
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Has anyone noticed that Jeff Green has been quietly clutch from 3 this this season? The late 3 from the Bucks game is like the third 3 I've seen him hit in late game situations. Doesn't excuse his poor play overall but still..
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Green is definitely one of our best and most versatile scorers. And it's not really that close.
He has the quickness/explosiveness, shooting touch, and some nice footwork. If Pierce still had any quickness or explosiveness at all, then the nod goes to PP, but Green is a more potent offensive weapon right now.
I'm not sure beyond Pierce who would even be in the conversation.
He's certainly more explosive than Pierce is now, but he's not more effective.
Pierce still has a higher TS% this year (Shooting 41% as he's struggled from 2 point and at the rim) than Jeff Green has ever had in his career. Higher assist rate and free throw rate as well.
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Green is definitely one of our best and most versatile scorers. And it's not really that close.
He has the quickness/explosiveness, shooting touch, and some nice footwork. If Pierce still had any quickness or explosiveness at all, then the nod goes to PP, but Green is a more potent offensive weapon right now.
I'm not sure beyond Pierce who would even be in the conversation.
He's certainly more explosive than Pierce is now, but he's not more effective.
Pierce still has a higher TS% this year (Shooting 41% as he's struggled from 2 point and at the rim) than Jeff Green has ever had in his career. Higher assist rate and free throw rate as well.
Stats geek. ;)
Green surely has a ways to go, but I'm pretty impressed with his skills (apparently that's a minority opinion), and given his skills, I'm impressed with his contract, too.
No question he needs work, but when he stops trying to fit in and starts trying to score the g-d ball, he seems to be incredibly effective and versatile. Better than Pierce, IMO, whose slowness is a factor. Pierce has generally been pretty easy to stop with a double team, too (terrible at passing out of them).
In any case, if Green keeps learning from Pierce how to get his shot off in that midrange game, he'll be a force. From what I've seen (mainly in the OKC game), he has the tools to take over games when the reigns come off.
The %ages, I'm not worred about.
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I'd rather see Green shoot more threes and attack the rim more rather than work on his midrange game.
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I just don't see it, for every moment Jeff Green looks good he's dribbled right into help or bounced the ball off his foot. He's turning the ball over at a greater rate than Pierce when he's had it even.
Tools aren't performance, his tools are good but I have yet to see anything from him that indicates he'll be suprassing Pierce anytime this year.
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I'd rather see Green shoot more threes and attack the rim more rather than work on his midrange game.
I'd like him to look for more opportunities to take 3s. (he hesistates to often to shoot of the catch)
As for attacking the rim, Green needs to grasp when he should take a step back jumper better. He's dribbled into a lot of turnovers when if he just stopped he'd have an open jumper. Once he does that the lane to the rim only will get easier.
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I'd rather see Green shoot more threes and attack the rim more rather than work on his midrange game.
I'd like him to look for more opportunities to take 3s. (he hesistates to often to shoot of the catch)
As for attacking the rim, Green needs to grasp when he should take a step back jumper better. He's dribbled into a lot of turnovers when if he just stopped he'd have an open jumper. Once he does that the lane to the rim only will get easier.
He needs to learn how to go left.
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I just don't see it, for every moment Jeff Green looks good he's dribbled right into help or bounced the ball off his foot. He's turning the ball over at a greater rate than Pierce when he's had it even.
Actually, Pierce is turning it over at a greater rate than Jeff. Both are turning the ball over more than they should, but Pierce has so far been worse this season.
Pierce has 42 turnovers across 17 games (about 2.47 per game), and Jeff has 26 turnovers across 17 games (1.53 per game). Obviously, they play different minutes ...\
Pierce has 42 turnovers across 573 minutes. That's approximately one turnover every 13.6 minutes of playing time. Jeff has 26 turnovers across 368 minutes, which is approximately one turnover every 14.2 minutes.
Not that Jeff doesn't need to drastically improve in terms of taking care of the ball, but there's no point in making inaccurate claims.
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I just don't see it, for every moment Jeff Green looks good he's dribbled right into help or bounced the ball off his foot. He's turning the ball over at a greater rate than Pierce when he's had it even.
Actually, Pierce is turning it over at a greater rate than Jeff. Both are turning the ball over more than they should, but Pierce has so far been worse this season.
Pierce has 42 turnovers across 17 games (about 2.47 per game), and Jeff has 26 turnovers across 17 games (1.53 per game). Obviously, they play different minutes ...\
Pierce has 42 turnovers across 573 minutes. That's approximately one turnover every 13.6 minutes of playing time. Jeff has 26 turnovers across 368 minutes, which is approximately one turnover every 14.2 minutes.
Not that Jeff doesn't need to drastically improve in terms of taking care of the ball, but there's no point in making inaccurate claims.
Specifically I was refering to TOV%
TOV%
Turnover Percentage (available since the 1977-78 season in the NBA); the formula is 100 * TOV / (FGA + 0.44 * FTA + TOV). Turnover percentage is an estimate of turnovers per 100 plays.
Pierce not only plays a lot more minutes than Jeff Green but he also handles the ball a lot more than Jeff Green.
He takes more shots per minute, draws more free throws per minute, and he gets more assists per minute. (assists don't factor into TOV%, but usually players with high assists have more turnovers as a result of bad passes. Green gets so many fewer than Pierce I don't think that's a factor we need to work into our thought for these two)
Now while its not impossible to get turnovers off the ball I don't think those compose many of Pierce/Green's turnovers. When Jeff Green's taken shots or tried to get assists he's turned the ball over even more than Paul.