CelticsStrong
Celtics Basketball => Celtics Talk => Topic started by: Bossco on November 30, 2012, 05:16:32 AM
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It is not Jeff Green's fault that the Celtics are so called "soft". It is Danny Ainge's (and doc's because he went along with it).
I can clearly remember an interview that DA gave after the trade where he was unwilling to even admit that he gave up the best defender in the trade!? I couldn't believe my ears. Did Danny know something that we didn't? Well so far - NO! So far it looks like trading Perk and getting JG and paying him that contract was a major blunder.
NBA basketball has been around for a while and the center and point guard positions are usuallly the most pivotal.
We were all set at both positions then and for the future.
What happens? We trade our young heart and soul defensive/ toughness guy and then supposedly shop Rondo all over the league.
I knew the moment that we traded Perk that we were in trouble. We used to hang our hat on defense. Can you imagine a team with Perk and KG on it ever being called soft? Small ball is ok sometimes, but size, strength and toughness are needed as well. Guarding the rim used to be a given.
Team basketball is not about stats or salaries. It is about roles. Perk had a role and he played it well. We never lost a playoff series with him in the starting lineup.
Ainge made a terrible mistake trading Perk. He could have been our corner stone defensive presence for a long time, but instead poor KG is left all by himself back there. We used to be a well oiled machine defensively, now the wheels seem to be coming off.
DA obviously thought that it would easy to replace Perk, but our window was now and he never should have tinkered with the team's defensive chemistry that way. He gambled and we all suffer now because of it.
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KG made Perkins look like a better defender that he was or is.
He's a decent low post defender ( he was when his knees were 100%). He's now basically an overpaid back up center, you shouldn't get 9 million because you can attempt to rough up Pau Gasol or bark at Zac Randolph.
This team isn't soft. Doc is trying to get them fired up, trying to ignite something under them.
We have two guys who just came off major heart surgery and are playing in the NBA after having their chest cavities opened up and played with, sewn back up, barely walking 9 months ago- now THAT is tough.
A team that takes the Miami Heat to 7 games in their court and gets through the ECF when Rondo gets suspended and wins that Hawks game, with Ray on one leg, Avery's shoulder cooked etc. Rondo playing the year before with a broken arm, or scoring 44 points and 15 assists in an epic series.
That ain't soft.
Anyone who claims Perkins was the key to our 'toughness' is kidding themselves. He was a godchild of KG.
We still have KG playing like he's 26 every night at age 36. That's tough.
It's 15 games in. Oh and by the way, Perkins 'toughness' ain't that special if OKC wish they unloaded him a while ago. Problem is no one will take that contract lol.
I know who the Heat are not wanting to see in the ECF this year. They don't care about those overpaid bums on the Nets. They don't care about the hyped up Knicks. They don't care about the 76ers without Bynum.
But they are well and truly worried about the Celtics team with 8 new players and wondering how long it will take before their much improved roster starts paying dividends.
As I said, it's 15 games in. People need to think back to last year, everyone ALWAYS hits the panic button- it's an 82 game season. It takes TIME to develop chemistry- but don't question our toughness. Doc doesn't, he's using psychology on the younger guys to get them going, to buy in. He knows he's got KG, Rondo, Pierce and Bass- 4 of the toughest SOB's in the NBA who went to war with the Heat and almost came out on top- he just wants more from the new guys and he'll find a way to get it. Terry's already got it. Lee's got it even if his shot isn't falling.
When Avery gets back it will just solidify our defensive toughness and probably spark the others into playing some real defense.
They're coming for all the haters.
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KG made Perkins look like a better defender that he was or is.
He's a decent low post defender ( he was when his knees were 100%). He's now basically an overpaid back up center, you shouldn't get 9 million because you can attempt to rough up Pau Gasol or bark at Zac Randolph.
This team isn't soft. Doc is trying to get them fired up, trying to ignite something under them.
We have two guys who just came off major heart surgery and are playing in the NBA after having their chest cavities opened up and played with, sewn back up, barely walking 9 months ago- now THAT is tough.
A team that takes the Miami Heat to 7 games in their court and gets through the ECF when Rondo gets suspended and wins that Hawks game, with Ray on one leg, Avery's shoulder cooked etc. Rondo playing the year before with a broken arm, or scoring 44 points and 15 assists in an epic series.
That ain't soft.
Anyone who claims Perkins was the key to our 'toughness' is kidding themselves. He was a godchild of KG.
We still have KG playing like he's 26 every night at age 36. That's tough.
It's 15 games in. Oh and by the way, Perkins 'toughness' ain't that special if OKC wish they unloaded him a while ago. Problem is no one will take that contract lol.
I know who the Heat are not wanting to see in the ECF this year. They don't care about those overpaid bums on the Nets. They don't care about the hyped up Knicks. They don't care about the 76ers without Bynum.
But they are well and truly worried about the Celtics team with 8 new players and wondering how long it will take before their much improved roster starts paying dividends.
As I said, it's 15 games in. People need to think back to last year, everyone ALWAYS hits the panic button- it's an 82 game season. It takes TIME to develop chemistry- but don't question our toughness. Doc doesn't, he's using psychology on the younger guys to get them going, to buy in. He knows he's got KG, Rondo, Pierce and Bass- 4 of the toughest SOB's in the NBA who went to war with the Heat and almost came out on top- he just wants more from the new guys and he'll find a way to get it. Terry's already got it. Lee's got it even if his shot isn't falling.
When Avery gets back it will just solidify our defensive toughness and probably spark the others into playing some real defense.
They're coming for all the haters.
TP'd for truth
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(http://humorcastle.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/Edward-Norton-Closing-Laptop.gif)
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If Perk was the key to toughness why is OKC so soft? Perk was nothing more than a cog in the wheel and hard working average center with some attitude.
I think age has caused our softness. I heard this qoute in Band of Brothers , I think "The worst part of growing old is that other men cease to fear you."
I think that is what has caused our softness.
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If Perk was the key to toughness why is OKC so soft? Perk was nothing more than a cog in the wheel and hard working average center with some attitude.
I think age has caused our softness. I heard this qoute in Band of Brothers , I think "The worst part of growing old is that other men cease to fear you."
I think that is what has caused our softness.
Time and time again this league has shown that unless youre the san antonio spurs, the old guys take 25-30 games to really get in shape and in rhythm, especially when the players around them are completely different.
There are definitely some things that require fixing, but I honestly think time and getting games into these guys will be the best medicine.
Perkins is a terrible basketball player right now an was last season aswell. He's not helping anyone's toughness.
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When Avery Bradley was starting last season, we were the best defensive team in the NBA, and some argued a historically good defense.
So...you are wrong.
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Been saying this for years. As soo as Perk was traded our whole swagger and attitude went out the door with him. We were no longer the big bad Celtics we became the mediocre, quickly aging Celtics. Teams saw the chance to get in the paint without our enforcer and took advantage of it. No longer were we intimidating, we just became a team everyone wanted to beat and could on any given night.
Like Doc always said...Never lost a playoff series with that starting five, still havent.
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Been saying this for years. As soo as Perk was traded our whole swagger and attitude went out the door with him. We were no longer the big bad Celtics we became the mediocre, quickly aging Celtics. Teams saw the chance to get in the paint without our enforcer and took advantage of it. No longer were we intimidating, we just became a team everyone wanted to beat and could on any given night.
Like Doc always said...Never lost a playoff series with that starting five, still havent.
The "soft Celtics" were still a top three defensive team in the league last year who got better as the playoffs rolled around. This was a team that made it to the ECF and took the mighty Heat to seven, despite almost everyone predicting that they would be out of the playoffs by the second round.
It'll come this year.
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Been saying this for years. As soo as Perk was traded our whole swagger and attitude went out the door with him. We were no longer the big bad Celtics we became the mediocre, quickly aging Celtics. Teams saw the chance to get in the paint without our enforcer and took advantage of it. No longer were we intimidating, we just became a team everyone wanted to beat and could on any given night.
Like Doc always said...Never lost a playoff series with that starting five, still havent.
The "soft Celtics" were still a top three defensive team in the league last year who got better as the playoffs rolled around. This was a team that made it to the ECF and took the mighty Heat to seven, despite almost everyone predicting that they would be out of the playoffs by the second round.
It'll come this year.
And if we had that swagger, attitude, and non softness...We would have beat them in the playoffs.
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Been saying this for years. As soo as Perk was traded our whole swagger and attitude went out the door with him. We were no longer the big bad Celtics we became the mediocre, quickly aging Celtics. Teams saw the chance to get in the paint without our enforcer and took advantage of it. No longer were we intimidating, we just became a team everyone wanted to beat and could on any given night.
Like Doc always said...Never lost a playoff series with that starting five, still havent.
The "soft Celtics" were still a top three defensive team in the league last year who got better as the playoffs rolled around. This was a team that made it to the ECF and took the mighty Heat to seven, despite almost everyone predicting that they would be out of the playoffs by the second round.
It'll come this year.
And if we had that swagger, attitude, and non softness...We would have beat them in the playoffs.
O.K.
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Losing Shaq and Perk blew the bottom out of the Celtics inside tuffness.
When they left the swagger left.
Bradley popularity is due in part to he has FILLED IN this missing swagger . He plays with passion and grit.
There were definelty intanglables lost with the Perk trade.
And some important team chemistry.
Trading for Green was a poor judgement call at the wrong time.
My hope is Fab Melo can make up for it one day . I have no faith that Jeff Green is going to take Pierces spot one day.
I personally think Kris Joseph is going to be a more highly regarded player than Jeff Green ever will one day before its all said and dun.
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The Celtics were nowhere close to being a "soft" team last year when they played historically great defense from the All-Star break on.
/thread.
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They lost a lot of their ability to intimidate in the middle.
They still have KG, but many of the top teams can now pull him out of the middle plus, the Celtics need him to be in as little foul trouble as possible.
They do need that 2nd big man teams have to think twice about attacking the middle. A big man that can afford to get into foul trouble.
Celtics are still a good team defense. One of the best.
But there are two holes: top notch defensive rebounding and a second enforcer.
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We became soft when we lost Powe. He was our last interior presence.
It's not about getting technicals and staring players down angrily. What makes a team tough is their play in the paint. You need hustling guys down low that make their presence known offensively, defensively, and on the boards (Perk helped but he was only 1 for 3). We won because we had 3 guys like that (with Brown and KG), we were clearly the best team in the league for 2 years until Powe and KG got hurt, and we only returned to the top when we picked up another one in Shaq (followed by a big dropoff when he got hurt and it was just KG again.).
Only having one interior presence makes being soft unavoidable. That's why we get especially killed every time KG sits down.
If we're talking about losing our swagger/chemistry, that didn't go with Perk either. Ubuntu was lost with Posey.
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Milsap or Verajao alone can out rebound the WHOLE freakin celtics team and they are n' the biggest guys . Even Kevin love fights tooth and nail and he is flatfooted .
This team needs major trades and maybe a new coach.
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Here's a summary of what Danny has said recently about the current state of affairs:
Quick hits after Celtics director of basketball operations Danny Ainge's weekly appearance on Boston sports radio WEEI (93.7 FM) on Thursday afternoon.
* On the "soft" label Doc Rivers used after Wednesday's loss: "I see us as a not good rebounding team, and we're not big, and I think the thing that really hurts our rebounding is not just rebounding itself, but we're getting beat off the dribble too much, on the perimeter. And every time we get beat off the dribble, it takes one of our big guys to step up and it's 2-on-1 on the offensive glass, and when you take a team that's big like New Jersey, they really make you pay for that, because that's one of their strengths. ... So, I don't know, I'm not going to comment on whether they're soft. I will just say that we're not big, we're not strong, like a team like New Jersey, who's big and strong. We have to win in different ways."
* On whether Rajon Rondo getting himself tossed was beneficial: "Taking yourself out of the game, I don't think it's a fair trade off -- Rondo for Kris Humphries. I don't think that's helping your team. Ultimately that's what you have to do. I think that KG probably does appreciate it, and that's probably why KG sort of got back in there to try to help and rescue Rondo after it, because he knew he had come to his defense. So, I just think you can't do it in today's [game]. In old school basketball you were able to do those things. But in today's day in age, you just can't do that. Hopefully this is just another learning experience, not just for Rajon, but our whole team."
* On Celtics maintaining a consistent level of effort: "A frustrating thing that I've had with this team over the last two years, not just this year -- matter of fact it might be less this year than it was last year -- as we got off to a really bad start and we turned it on later in the year as we came together. And the year before we went all the way to Game 7 in the NBA Finals after going 27-27. So, I think that that's our pattern and that's frustrating, again, that we're on cruise control, and trying to turn it on when we think we have a chance to win and our fourth quarters are more intense than other parts of the game. Are we understanding how hard it is to win games in the game of basketball, in the NBA right now? You can't just show up to play, but you have to show up to win, and winning is much harder."
* On the inconsistent play of Jeff Green: "I think that there's a lot of things. I think Doc also mentioned -- at least he mentioned to me -- that they're trying to figure out how to best utilize Jeff, and a lot of it is on Jeff. But, Jeff's just been inconsistent. I think everybody's making too much out of this whole thing. Too much too soon. But, Jeff has not been consistent. He has not played consistent minutes, hasn't earned consistent minutes. But Jeff is a terrific talent, terrific player, and we think that he can give us a lot off the bench this year."
* On the drop-off the Celtics see when KG leaves the floor: "I think that there's a couple of issues here. It's not as simple as that. I think that when we start the game, often, I think the first six minutes of the game, our guys are always ready. They come out and play with energy and passion. And then when KG goes to the bench early in the first quarter, I see our energy level drop, and I don't think it's just because KG goes to the bench and someone comes in to replace him, or that player that's coming in to replace him is so much worse than KG. I think that we're not defending the ball as well anymore, like we did in the first segment. We're resting now. We're not defending the screen-and-rolls, we're not getting back and rebounding, and it's not just the matter of the drop-off of KG's talent. I think there's a lot more factors that go into play."
* On how the Celtics can control their emotional ups and downs: "Well, I think it comes from our best players. I think they've got to do it. They've got to be the leaders. ... I think that you're right, that's a tendency. Whenever you have veteran teams, I think that a tendency is to think you can do it by pacing yourself, as opposed to, like the younger players typically play with that energy and passion throughout the whole game."
Source: http://espn.go.com/blog/boston/celtics/post/_/id/4699511/quick-hits-from-danny-ainge-3
Personally speaking, I'm very happy that Rajon stood up for KG. Although a little upsetting that the biggest fight is in the smallest dog. Cs better find the eye of the tiger soon or more teams are going to be pushing us around at home.
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TP to the OP. I miss Perk.
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Fact not opinion.
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KG made Perkins look like a better defender that he was
And Perkins made kg look tougher then he really was....they were good together....what other defender has looked better next to kg before or since ? Please
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Agree with Shaqattack's and Pearljammer's. Can't recall a team, across sports, that won a 'chip without guys that picked up all the intangibles and an enforcer or two.
To think Perk was not a loss to our team is to completely disregard the reason we won championships, and lost that game 7. I've seen it mentioned KG made Perk look better - ask yourself, honestly... has KG not gotten soft, physically? He spends 2/3 of the game 20 feet from the basket and his bark is 3x worse than his bite at this point in his career. I love the man, and mentally/emotionally, he's tough... the reason we got to ECF last year. But Perk made KG look a hell of a lot better on defense. He had a lane stuffer and an absolute animal behind him at all times...that luxury allowed him to roam free and play help defense all game.
Ainge solidified his badge of a clown with that move. Aside from some differences of opinion - which make for good dialogue and fun avenues for discussion such as celticsblog - the 99% population sample I've had contact with hated that move. That many fans can't all be wrong.
To lend further credence to the claim... this is as tough as Green will get. I've no doubt he sits down to pee. I do too, but there is no hope on my shoulders to beat the Heat this year!
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Agree w you OP 100%
TP
perk trade = self inflicted end to this fun era.
it's too bad