CelticsStrong
Celtics Basketball => Celtics Talk => Topic started by: PhoSita on November 28, 2012, 09:26:44 PM
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I don't think it's overly negative or reactionary to say that, right now, the Celtics are a far worse team than most people expected them to be coming into the season. Personally, I felt very good about their roster.
I felt that they were going to have a strong start to their season -- perhaps not as strong as 2009 or 2011, but pretty strong. Instead, they are muddling around .500 and so far they have been superior only to the Raptors in the Atlantic division.
A quick look at the numbers -- which accords with my hunch based on just watching the games -- is that the defense, which the Celtics have relied on to win them games in the past, is nowhere, absolutely nowhere, close to where it was just last season.
But let's put our heads together and try to make a comprehensive list to make sense of this very discouraging start to the season. How do we account for the huge dropoff? I don't think that just saying "the new pieces need to figure out how to work together" is a sufficient explanation.
There are plenty of teams with many new pieces playing much better ball already this season. The Cs played such a team tonight and got their clocks cleaned.
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Bench Sullinger until he is willing to box out. Getting killed by Evans and Blatche.
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Bench Sullinger until he is willing to box out. Getting killed by Evans and Blatche.
Jared was working hard early in the game, but he racked up fouls quickly because Evans and Blatche have years of experience being tricky and dirty under the basket, drawing fouls on other people and finding ways to not get boxed out by young'ns like Sully.
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alot of new pieces still learning our defensive rotations and not comfortable in their roles. as well as some key pieces currently slumping (jeff green, Courtney lee) even Terry while showing flashes hasnt been consistent.
but, its fair to take note there are still 68 games left in the season...thats alot of games. and I see this team hitting its peak near the allstar break
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alot of new pieces still learning our defensive rotations and not comfortable in their roles. as well as some key pieces currently slumping (jeff green, Courtney lee) even Terry while showing flashes hasnt been consistent.
Well, the question is WHY those guys all slumping? With Green there's an excuse, but Lee and Terry are just baffling.
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We need to look into to make a blockbuster trade. In the NBA, depth doesn't win you championships, star-talent does.
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oops
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doublepost
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Shouldn't they be getting better by game 15? They aren't.
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Shouldn't they be getting better by game 15? They aren't.
how many games will it take???? we stunk the place up tonight. no excuses. Do we have too much depth and not enough starting talent?
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Would you have posted this if we won today?
Probably not.
I get we that we didn't play very well tonight. However not every loss is a sign of larger scale problems spelling doom for the entire year.
As for our problem in THIS PARTICULAR GAME. The biggest one I could see is perimeter defense. Players are switching faaaaar too quickly and not putting enough effort into staying in front of their man. This causes the D to collapse, leaving shooters open. Other guys then rush out to the shooters, which leaves rebounders open. It is a domino effect of the worst kind. Stop over-switching on defense.
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I thought the defense looked better tonight..unfortunately we left our offense back in orlando. for all the hate on Lee. I thought he played some solid defense on williams out there
theres WAY too much overreaction on this site....I cant remember the last meaningful NBA game thats been played in november..its game 15..at allstar break last year people were calling for the team to be broken up and we came back and ended up playing inspired ball all the way to game 7 of the finals.
and that team looked ALOT worse than we do now...I expect that by January this team will look alot different than we do now
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We need to look into to make a blockbuster trade. In the NBA, depth doesn't win you championships, star-talent does.
I really think it'll happen. Either December 15 or January 15.
Last time we had this much depth The Boston Three Party assembled.
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However the C's look in a month or two they don't have the players to solve their rebounding woes. Ainge will have to make a trade for a big man.
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The team hasn't been bad, it has been mediocre. Which when you're in "win now" is a big problem.
Most of it is due to poor pick and roll defense. Pick and rolls are allowing offensive rebounding to occur and open threes for spot up shooters.
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We need to look into to make a blockbuster trade. In the NBA, depth doesn't win you championships, star-talent does.
Well, you're definitely right about that.
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We have one quality big - KG, period. The rest are bench guys that includes Sully. PP is a wing.
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The team hasn't been bad, it has been mediocre. Which when you're in "win now" is a big problem.
Most of it is due to poor pick and roll defense. Pick and rolls are allowing offensive rebounding to occur and open threes for spot up shooters.
the positive is that defense can improve over time...players will eventually know the rotations...and bradley coming back in a couple weeks will also help out in that area.
Once this team starts playing D like they are accustomed to I think everything will start to come together.
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just not looking for things to get better till
1 st .... near midseason.
2 nd Bradley returns
3 rd..... DA trades for a big center or Josh Smith
Don't think we'll know the TRUE nature of this team till ALL-Star break.
Something will have to change.
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The team hasn't been bad, it has been mediocre. Which when you're in "win now" is a big problem.
Most of it is due to poor pick and roll defense. Pick and rolls are allowing offensive rebounding to occur and open threes for spot up shooters.
I just don't get it. We should be better. Looks like it might just be up and down until the all star break.
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just not looking for things to get better till
1 st .... near midseason.
2 nd Bradley returns
3 rd..... DA trades for a big center or Josh Smith
Don't think we'll know the TRUE nature of this team till ALL-Star break.
Something will have to change.
Precisely. My patience with this team will be prolonged until DA is finally unleashed to make a move.
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just not looking for things to get better till
1 st .... near midseason.
2 nd Bradley returns
3 rd..... DA trades for a big center or Josh Smith
Don't think we'll know the TRUE nature of this team till ALL-Star break.
Something will have to change.
Agree 100 percent. There will be a huge trade before the all star break
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-Stars are slipping (Pierce a little slower, less dynamic; KG further from the rim on offense again, a little slower on D).
-Rising star (Rondo) not able to make up the difference (Major inability to score for himself is a significant handicap)
-Lack of size with real talent (KG plays low minutes; no starting quality PF to make up the difference with KG at C and no good backup C)
-Bradley Injury hurts
-Lack of impact from drafting (depleted talent)
-Very poor ability to utilize MLE/BAE/Vet contracts to lock up bargain deals (results in depleted talent...a lot of good teams always seem to have that player that signed a 2-3 year deal and ended up being surprisingly good; the C's such signings are either terrible players or signed so short they then leave for a raise).
-Very poor bargain youth scouting (instead going after the expensive ineffective very short term patch that uses money and doesn't help...Wallace, JO, etc.)
-Major overvaluing of jeff green (we'd probably have the same record without him and have a much more flexible financial future AND not be burdened by the defacto "hard cap" this year that significantly hampers trade possibilities).
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We have one quality big - KG, period. The rest are bench guys that includes Sully. PP is a wing.
agreed. Wilcox has done ok for being a bench guy. But we need another starter quality BIG. get one that can switch with KG at center have each play 24 minutes if we want to put wilcox or sully or bass starting whomever is left after a trade or put KG back to the 4.
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I know theres a group that will disagree with me. But Bradley returning is going to fix alot of these problems.
it puts someone in the starting lineup who KNOWS the defense and CAN stay in front of his man. and puts Terry(a scorer more than a defender) back on the bench.
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I know theres a group that will disagree with me. But Bradley returning is going to fix alot of these problems.
it puts someone in the starting lineup who KNOWS the defense and CAN stay in front of his man. and puts Terry(a scorer more than a defender) back on the bench.
Hope so. Just don't think he comes back ready to go right away. Everything just seems destined for this team to hit their stride in February.
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I know theres a group that will disagree with me. But Bradley returning is going to fix alot of these problems.
it puts someone in the starting lineup who KNOWS the defense and CAN stay in front of his man. and puts Terry(a scorer more than a defender) back on the bench.
Hope so. Just don't think he comes back ready to go right away. Everything just seems destined for this team to hit their stride in February.
can we afford to wait til midseason to get things together? How many games back will we be in the division?
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too small.
we're small on the perimeter with Lee, Terry, and Barbosa, and we're small in the middle with Bass, Sully, and Wilcox.
NJs big guards were dribbling past and shooting over us, and their bigs were moving easily in the paint.
We just don't have impact defensive players. AB, Piertrus, Steamer weren't world-beaters, but they had an impact when they came in the game.
AB coming back should help some...
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-Stars are slipping (Pierce a little slower, less dynamic; KG further from the rim on offense again, a little slower on D).
-Rising star (Rondo) not able to make up the difference (Major inability to score for himself is a significant handicap)
-Lack of size with real talent (KG plays low minutes; no starting quality PF to make up the difference with KG at C and no good backup C)
-Bradley Injury hurts
-Lack of impact from drafting (depleted talent)
-Very poor ability to utilize MLE/BAE/Vet contracts to lock up bargain deals (results in depleted talent...a lot of good teams always seem to have that player that signed a 2-3 year deal and ended up being surprisingly good; the C's such signings are either terrible players or signed so short they then leave for a raise).
-Very poor bargain youth scouting (instead going after the expensive ineffective very short term patch that uses money and doesn't help...Wallace, JO, etc.)
-Major overvaluing of jeff green (we'd probably have the same record without him and have a much more flexible financial future AND not be burdened by the defacto "hard cap" this year that significantly hampers trade possibilities).
All of these things are dead on. I was very surprised when we went with Melo as our second draft pick, as I thought the idea was to try and win now. He isn't going to see the floor this year. Sullinger though has looked pretty good.
Not having ANY interior presence outside of Sullinger in the post has been a major downside to this team.
Doc always resorts to putting Bass back in at the end of games, regardless of how well Sullinger or Wilcox are playing. I have seen this multiple times. We lose our interior offense/rebounding when this happens.
I think the kind of player that we need is a Demarcus Cousins kind of guy, one that can score and move people around in the paint.
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All of these things are dead on. I was very surprised when we went with Melo as our second draft pick, as I thought the idea was to try and win now. He isn't going to see the floor this year. Sullinger though has looked pretty good.
Imagine if we had drafted Jeff Taylor instead. He's playing on the Bobcats, granted, but so far this season he's been a better player than both Lee and Green. For rookie money.
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All of these things are dead on. I was very surprised when we went with Melo as our second draft pick, as I thought the idea was to try and win now. He isn't going to see the floor this year. Sullinger though has looked pretty good.
Imagine if we had drafted Jeff Taylor instead. He's playing on the Bobcats, granted, but so far this season he's been a better player than both Lee and Green. For rookie money.
I think we would have benefited the most from someone like Jae Crowder if we wanted impactful energy off the bench that wouldn't make us so small.
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This team is bad, because assembling a group of men to play professional basketball NEVER guarantees results - especially results deemed expectant by impatient fans
Why is the sky blue when the sun is out?
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This team isn't bad, The rebounding is bad.. Quite frankly awful. Rebounding wins basketball games. Close 2nd is our defense is not playing well either. I think some of that changes with AB coming back and being able to stop the ball dead in its tracks. But when this team rebounds well the play better and beat up on teams. When you have games like tonight where I didn't watch all if it but over heard Mike say Blatche had 10 rebounds in 7 minutes that just cant be going on if you wanna win basketball games.
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It's still November. It's too early too call this one yet. It's so early in the season, the Wiz, Raps and Cavs still has a shot to make the playoffs. Also, we have a winning record too.
They are not living up to expectations I can tell you that. But a bad team? Because we lost while losing our best player in a scuffle? C'mon, overreacting much?
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Pierce is very inconsistent, and Terry hasn't gelled yet. Plus, our bench as a whole is still finding their identity. I think that's a good summation.
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so hard to judge the celtics in the first half of the regular season. Lee, Green, Bradley and even Bass should be breaking out this season, and when they do this team will be a solid contender.
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We need to look into to make a blockbuster trade. In the NBA, depth doesn't win you championships, star-talent does.
I really think it'll happen. Either December 15 or January 15.
Last time we had this much depth The Boston Three Party assembled.
And with depth you mean Wally Sz, Delonte, young big al and Gerald. ;D
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It's still November. It's too early too call this one yet. It's so early in the season, the Wiz, Raps and Cavs still has a shot to make the playoffs. Also, we have a winning record too.
They are not living up to expectations I can tell you that. But a bad team? Because we lost while losing our best player in a scuffle? C'mon, overreacting much?
They have been, in a word, mediocre. It would be charitable to say that they've been one of the best 10-15 teams in the league so far this season. That means they've played like a borderline playoff team. In a few games they have looked quite good (e.g. against the Thunder), but for the most part, they haven't impressed.
Considering the players on the roster, I think it's fair to call them "bad" so far. I think I made pretty clear in the original post that I'm just saying they're "bad" right now. Not claiming I believe or know that they will be bad three months from now. But I'm worried, because the signs so far aren't encouraging, even with patience and perspective and keeping in mind that they've had mid-season turnarounds in the past.
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We need a Varejao player, yes a Varejao player... without missing Rondo, KG , Pierce and Terry, that could make it.
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We need a Varejao player, yes a Varejao player... without missing Rondo, KG , Pierce and Terry, that could make it.
I've long felt that Andy V represents exactly the kind of player the Celtics need to put next to KG in order to become a truly elite team again. Andy V should be available . . . but I'm not sure that the Celtics have the assets, unless they want to put Bradley and / or Sully on the table.
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Pierce is very inconsistent, and Terry hasn't gelled yet. Plus, our bench as a whole is still finding their identity. I think that's a good summation.
What's frustrating about the identity thing is that this team should not have any questions about their identity. Their only path to success against the best teams has to be tough, physical, swarming defense. The kind the Nets have been playing to get to 10-4.
As I described at length in another post, I think the bench was put together this off-season with the idea in mind that they would score, because trying to maintain the defense when KG isn't on the floor is a very difficult endeavor with the current roster options available. As you are perhaps suggesting, though, this creates an issue of identity, because we have mostly the same starting lineup which has hung its hat on slow, efficient half-court offense and tough D, but a bench that wants to play up-tempo and try to outscore the opponent.
What we've gotten as a result is a team that is scoring more, but is still nowhere close to an elite group on that end. Meanwhile, the overall defense has gone into the toilet because any unit without KG anchoring is a complete sieve.
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We need a Varejao player, yes a Varejao player... without missing Rondo, KG , Pierce and Terry, that could make it.
I've long felt that Andy V represents exactly the kind of player the Celtics need to put next to KG in order to become a truly elite team again. Andy V should be available . . . but I'm not sure that the Celtics have the assets, unless they want to put Bradley and / or Sully on the table.
and if thats what it takes i will do it in a second
you always give guard talent for big man talent.
AV injuries seems to worry but andy is always ready when it counts.
hes not a dumb player and he knows his baggage
he takes care of himself thats what you learn from kid.
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I see nothing but a defeated, bad team that is scared to get beat. This is officially the end of this celtics run as we know it. I know I was more than excited about this team as DA put them together but it can be nothing less that a complete debacle at this point. Not sure what team others are watching but this C's team is pretty bad.
Can Jeff Green be amnestied? Some changes need to be made and I think they need to start dumping salaries and assets for youngs and picks.
Do you see the look in Docs face when he says this team is soft and has NO aggression? Ask yourself what exactly is going to change this teams entire dynamic and demeanor?
For why its bad is pretty simple. As much as we love PP and the Kid they're old, rest of the team other than Rondo? They simply suck.
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p.s. a team have to be flexible as long as it´s not domminant
-Edgar-
;D
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I see nothing but a defeated, bad team that is scared to get beat. This is officially the end of this celtics run as we know it. I know I was more than excited about this team as DA put them together but it can be nothing less that a complete debacle at this point. Not sure what team others are watching but this C's team is pretty bad.
Can Jeff Green be amnestied? Some changes need to be made and I think they need to start dumping salaries and assets for youngs and picks.
Do you see the look in Docs face when he says this team is soft and has NO aggression? Ask yourself what exactly is going to change this teams entire dynamic and demeanor?
For why its bad is pretty simple. As much as we love PP and the Kid they're old, rest of the team other than Rondo? They simply suck.
Just to play devil's advocate here -- they looked twice as soft and half as interested in playing good basketball for most of the 2009-2010 season. Of course, as far as I know there are no Rasheeds on this team. I sure hope none of the new guys has that kind of attitude (Terry?).
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I see nothing but a defeated, bad team that is scared to get beat. This is officially the end of this celtics run as we know it. I know I was more than excited about this team as DA put them together but it can be nothing less that a complete debacle at this point. Not sure what team others are watching but this C's team is pretty bad.
Can Jeff Green be amnestied? Some changes need to be made and I think they need to start dumping salaries and assets for youngs and picks.
Do you see the look in Docs face when he says this team is soft and has NO aggression? Ask yourself what exactly is going to change this teams entire dynamic and demeanor?
For why its bad is pretty simple. As much as we love PP and the Kid they're old, rest of the team other than Rondo? They simply suck.
1) Pierce is still Pierce as in he will surprise you more often than not, as much as i will never give him the ball in ISOS again
2) KG is playing well. really, in a new role or in his old role if we finally find a center
3) the KG center experiment really have to be over.
4) Rondo is a great create for others pg-
5)Doc can put Elmos face, i still think hes the one called to make things work with the right rotations and not only saying things in front of cameras.
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I don't think it's overly negative or reactionary to say that, right now, the Celtics are a far worse team than most people expected them to be coming into the season. Personally, I felt very good about their roster.
I still feel very good about their roster. No question this is the deepest Celtics team we have had since 2008. I focus on 3 major, glaring weaknesses we have:
1) Defensive effort. It is simply not there, especially from Rondo. We need Avery Bradley back and soon.
2) Rebounding differential. We are last in the league. Creates more chances for opponents and less chances for us, plus it is demoralizing.
3) Sloppy play. It may not show up in the stats but we are sloppy as hell on the offensive end, nowhere near a crisp product like the Spurs. This is mostly a function of relying on Rondo as a playmaker. I think this will improve over time once the team gets used to each other.
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We need a Varejao player, yes a Varejao player... without missing Rondo, KG , Pierce and Terry, that could make it.
I've long felt that Andy V represents exactly the kind of player the Celtics need to put next to KG in order to become a truly elite team again. Andy V should be available . . . but I'm not sure that the Celtics have the assets, unless they want to put Bradley and / or Sully on the table.
You gotta give up lots of guys to fit in Varejao and Luke Walton's deals. If the cabs trade Varejao, luke Walton goes with him.
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welcome to at least 3 years of mediocrity. This is exactly what I thought this team would be, which is why I have been saying for months Ainge totally blew this off season. Unmitigated disaster of an off season and unfortunately I just don't see a way out for Boston as there are just too many awful contracts to mediocre players and no real up and coming stars (at least not any that can stay healthy). The next three years will be like the 2004-7 seasons (playoffs this year, then slowly worse the next two) with Rondo being the star that Pierce was. I just hope we can land a Jefferson esque player in the draft at some point (maybe Sully turns into that sort of player).
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Yea this is very hard to watch! I love PP but he looks brutally slow and sometimes seeming to put on little effort. If Green was worth $9m I would move him to starter and PP to the bench, but Green looks more like a $3m player :'(. Another thing I don't understand is if KG is only going to play 28 mins a game why not play him the last 7 mins of each quarter? Doc has to do something here, I'm not seeing good effort, and their passing looks like grade school level.
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Bench Sullinger until he is willing to box out. Getting killed by Evans and Blatche.
Jared was working hard early in the game, but he racked up fouls quickly because Evans and Blatche have years of experience being tricky and dirty under the basket, drawing fouls on other people and finding ways to not get boxed out by young'ns like Sully.
This exactly CORRECT !!! Sully was trying, but they were flopping, acting, and ABUSING him like a little red headed step child. He was WILLING to battle, but the refs would have just fouled him out in 1-2 Quarters. ANd basically from what I saw it was SULLY against 3-4 extremely ruff and dirty bigs ( BY HIMSELF )..
Without Darko or Perk , all we have is SKINNY OLD KG and a 20 year old KId SUlly to throw in there. Collins is WORTHLESS period.
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Some reminding words from the truth himself
Each and every game is important for us but at the end of the day our goal isn’t to win the division... our goal is to go out there and win a championship.
I dont think this is something Doc necessarily agrees with but hey its the truth.
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alot of new pieces still learning our defensive rotations
Most of the players on this team had the whole offseason, a full training camp and now 15 games of the regular season. Most of the guys are also veterans who've been around the league for several years. If they're STILL having trouble just learning the defensive rotations, that's a system problem and not a player problem.
Mike
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Lack of focus and lack of desire.
Last night's game and the Piston's game, they looked like they didn't care.
Missed free throws, turnovers, poor rebounding all point to lack of focus or desire.
Where was the aggression? They didn't take the ball to the hole much, especially in the first half. Was Tommy right when he said that Terry's illegal D freethrow was the first for the Cs of the game? And that was real late in I think the first quarter, but it might have been late in the first half.
Anybody remember?
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This team isn't bad, The rebounding is bad.. Quite frankly awful.
Why do people keep saying this? Even after last night's fiasco, the Celtics are ranked seventh in defensive rebounding rate. Clearly they are protecting the defensive boards.
Of course their overall rebounding rate is low because the offensive rebounding rate is spectacularly low. But the thing is, the Celtics never try to get offensive rebounds, so it doesn't make sense to criticize them for something aren't trying to do. something they haven't done four years running now.
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It just looks like nobody wants to play out there. Everyone with the exception of KG 85% of the time, Wilcox 75% of the time, Terry 50% of the time, and Rondo 30% of the time, is on auto pilot.
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This team isn't bad, The rebounding is bad.. Quite frankly awful.
Why do people keep saying this? Even after last night's fiasco, the Celtics are ranked seventh in defensive rebounding rate. Clearly they are protecting the defensive boards.
Of course their overall rebounding rate is low because the offensive rebounding rate is spectacularly low. But the thing is, the Celtics never try to get offensive rebounds, so it doesn't make sense to criticize them for something aren't trying to do. something they haven't done four years running now.
Yes but four years ago we were the best defense in the NBA KG and Pierce were younger. We had a true center in Perk. Those things four years ago aren't working right now. In my post if you can see I put when we rebound well we win. But a close second is our poor defense right now. And you can look at all the games we have lost we have been out-rebounded by a large margin. Rebounds and Defense win you games. We rebound decent we usually win but when we don't we give up offensive rebounds and then we get tired because we are on defense a whole lot. These are things you cant do. Four years ago we could give up and offensive rebound because we were most likely going to stop you again. This is KG being 32 he is 36 and yes while i consider him still a top 5 PF and amazing on defense still, He does have the athletic ability to do what he did 4 years ago.
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I see nothing but a defeated, bad team that is scared to get beat. This is officially the end of this celtics run as we know it. I know I was more than excited about this team as DA put them together but it can be nothing less that a complete debacle at this point. Not sure what team others are watching but this C's team is pretty bad.
Can Jeff Green be amnestied? Some changes need to be made and I think they need to start dumping salaries and assets for youngs and picks.
Do you see the look in Docs face when he says this team is soft and has NO aggression? Ask yourself what exactly is going to change this teams entire dynamic and demeanor?
For why its bad is pretty simple. As much as we love PP and the Kid they're old, rest of the team other than Rondo? They simply suck.
It's way way WAY too early in the season for posts like this.
...Step away from the ledge.
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Our team has no inside presence and is completely lost on defense when KG is off the floor. I'd rather have decent shooting and solid defense. Too bad there is neither.
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defensive rotations.
any team right now exploits us with 2 or 3 passes. sometimes, we get the first rotation right. never, we get the second or third. we are no where close to the 'on a string' mentality that we had from 08-10.
coaching staff has really got to step up.
other than Pierce who is a step slower, everyone else (Bass, Lee, Green, Sully, Melo) is more than capable of rotating quickly and effectively. how is it we look slower after adding all these young legs?
if our rotations were Celtic Level; we'd score 115 a night running circles around our opponents.
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The players are not making winning plays out there to put it Blountly and sounding Belichickean.
I take this one game at a time as I am still learning about our new team. Some pieces are good, other pieces are disappointing.
I suspect that the Celtics are a lot better than they have shown so far.
They need to take care of business against the lesser teams and at home, then find a winning formula against good teams on the road in 2013.
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The players are not making winning plays out there to put it Blountly and sounding Belichickean.
I take this one game at a time as I am still learning about our new team. Some pieces are good, other pieces are disappointing.
I suspect that the Celtics are a lot better than they have shown so far.
They need to take care of business against the lesser teams and at home, then find a winning formula against good teams on the road in 2013.
Playing down to lesser ream and getting push around and punished is no way for team with championship hopes to conduct themselves.
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We have one quality big - KG, period. The rest are bench guys that includes Sully. PP is a wing.
Hes Our only big that's actually tall...if all our big guys were actually big we would be fine. Kg hasn't been that great...hes been ok