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Celtics Basketball => Celtics Talk => Topic started by: rutzan on November 27, 2012, 01:52:58 PM

Title: Bradley or Sully: Who do you trade?
Post by: rutzan on November 27, 2012, 01:52:58 PM
Sully...and i'll tell you why...i like both of them...but...bradley has higher upside...and...i'll tell you why...bradley is already a lock-down defender...that means he is already great in one category...his handle is avg with a little upside...shooting and attacking the hole are good with more upside...sully will prob be good to very good at rebounding and inside scoring...but...i don't think he'll ever be great at one thing...think about it like this...great players have at least one great skill that they complement with other skills that are good...they can make a difference in a game and change a game because they have a great skill to fall back on
Title: Re: Bradley or Sully: Who do you trade?
Post by: wdleehi on November 27, 2012, 01:55:54 PM
Who are the Celtics getting back?


What other pieces are also going out?
Title: Re: Bradley or Sully: Who do you trade?
Post by: Lightskinsmurf on November 27, 2012, 02:04:56 PM
Sully but the more i think about it the more id rather just keep everyone. Wait till ab comes back, sign  KMART or Birdman and call it a day.
Title: Re: Bradley or Sully: Who do you trade?
Post by: AB_Celtic on November 27, 2012, 02:08:57 PM
Who are the Celtics getting back?


What other pieces are also going out?

Exactly. It depends so much on the trade itself. You can't say one player definitively for every trade.
Title: Re: Bradley or Sully: Who do you trade?
Post by: Celtics18 on November 27, 2012, 02:10:15 PM
I'm not looking to trade anyone just for the sake of it, but Bradley is way higher on my list of keepers than Sullinger. 
Title: Re: Bradley or Sully: Who do you trade?
Post by: pearljammer10 on November 27, 2012, 02:23:36 PM
It all comes down to the package we get in return. And whatever can net us a better player/fill a bigger need. I think we are going to see one of two deals happen.

Bradley, Bass, and picks

or

Lee, Sully and picks

I feel that both SGs (Lee and Bradley) and both PFs (Bass and Sully) give us equal production and can adapt to our strengths no matter what we end up with. Im guessing we will trade on young, and one vet.
Title: Re: Bradley or Sully: Who do you trade?
Post by: Fafnir on November 27, 2012, 02:24:42 PM
I rate Bradley higher than Sullinger without knowing anything about the details of such a trade.
Title: Re: Bradley or Sully: Who do you trade?
Post by: Kane3387 on November 27, 2012, 02:36:40 PM
Depends on the contract being shipped out with him, but I would give Sullinger up before I gave Bradley up.

I still think Sullinger has an outside chance to be the better player. Kevin Love has made me a believer that a guy like Sully can be an All-NBAer. But I really love AB's ability to play D wade straight up.
Title: Re: Bradley or Sully: Who do you trade?
Post by: crimson_stallion on November 27, 2012, 02:50:01 PM
Sully, but it would be painful to let him go.

Thing is that Bradley is the same age as Sully pretty much, but he's already been with the team 2 years - better chemistry.

At his age he is also already an elite (top 5) perimeter defender in the NBA.  Sully is a very good rebounder, and a capable scorer, but he's not top 10 at either yet.

Also Bradley is exceptionally athletic, and athletic guys usually have greater upside - Bradley running the floor with Rondo for example is like magic.

Finally while Bradley might be undersized for a SG, Sully is also undersized at PF.  Difference is that Bradley plays bigger than he is - he can play multiple positions effectively and can defend guys 2"-3" taller than him.  Sully is really only effective at PF and struggles against bigger opponents on both ends of the floor.
Title: Re: Bradley or Sully: Who do you trade?
Post by: Big Rondo on November 27, 2012, 02:55:19 PM
I'd give up Bradley.

Sully has a much higher basketball IQ and does a lot more of the little things that help a team win games. Bradley is good at one thing and one thing only and that's man defense; Sully will make the extra pass, use his body to box out and rebound, make smart cuts to the basket... He has more range on his jumper than Bradley as well.

Lockdown defenders come and go but finding a basketball player as smart as Sully at such a young age is hard to do. Sully has boundless potential, very likely to be the next Paul Millsap. Bradley at best is Tony Allen with a corner 3. Give me the heady, all-around talent to the defensive specialist all day every day.

Best of luck with your career, AB, hope things work out for the best.
Title: Re: Bradley or Sully: Who do you trade?
Post by: Lightskinsmurf on November 27, 2012, 03:03:27 PM
I'd give up Bradley.

Sully has a much higher basketball IQ and does a lot more of the little things that help a team win games. Bradley is good at one thing and one thing only and that's man defense; Sully will make the extra pass, use his body to box out and rebound, make smart cuts to the basket... He has more range on his jumper than Bradley as well.

Lockdown defenders come and go but finding a basketball player as smart as Sully at such a young age is hard to do. Sully has boundless potential, very likely to be the next Paul Millsap. Bradley at best is Tony Allen with a corner 3. Give me the heady, all-around talent to the defensive specialist all day every day.

Best of luck with your career, AB, hope things work out for the best.

Well, bradley isn't just GOOD at defense, hes excellent, elite, superb, one of the best in the game. Sully is good at some things but he isnt great at anything or elite. He can be replaced alot easier than bradley can. Also, defensive players like AB do not just come and go i assure you lol.
Title: Re: Bradley or Sully: Who do you trade?
Post by: Fafnir on November 27, 2012, 03:03:42 PM
Sully has a much higher basketball IQ and does a lot more of the little things that help a team win games. Bradley is good at one thing and one thing only and that's man defense; Sully will make the extra pass, use his body to box out and rebound, make smart cuts to the basket... He has more range on his jumper than Bradley as well.
Your list confuses me.

Bradley isn't a ball stopper either, he'll pass the ball.

Bradley is an aggressive cutter, far more effective than Sullinger is in that role.

Bradley also was solid at hitting the corner three and his 2 point jump shots percentage is better than Sullinger's. Sullinger is only shooting around 33% on his jump shots. Their TS% (AVery's last year and Sullinger's this year) are almost identical.

Sullinger is a better rebounder certainly.
Title: Re: Bradley or Sully: Who do you trade?
Post by: angryguy77 on November 27, 2012, 03:09:41 PM
Neither. Sully was a steal, and AB will be a key piece for this team in the future, if not this year.

I want them to win it all this year like the rest of you, but I don't think anyone that we could get(right now) outweighs the potential these two guys have. If we trade any of these two and don't win it all, I would lose a lot of faith in Danny.
Title: Re: Bradley or Sully: Who do you trade?
Post by: Ersatz on November 27, 2012, 03:10:55 PM
It would depend on the actual trade, but in  general, Bradley is much more valuable.

In fact, as a general rule I'd say this if I were Danny Ainge: If you want Bradley, you have to take Jeff Green too.

Then again, Doc and Danny, inexplicably, like Jeff Green, despite the fact that he's a below average player.
Title: Re: Bradley or Sully: Who do you trade?
Post by: Change on November 27, 2012, 03:12:26 PM
Sullinger is a nice backup power forward thats all. There is very little upside when you are chubby un-athletic undersized power-forward. I can see him being same player ten years from now that he is now. A solid player but nothing special.

Avery is a defensive superstar already. And we saw flashes what he is capable of on offense. Potential could become hybrid between Tony Allen (defense) and Russel Westbrook (offense).
Title: Re: Bradley or Sully: Who do you trade?
Post by: Ersatz on November 27, 2012, 03:13:48 PM
I'd give up Bradley.

Lockdown defenders come and go


Wait, what? How many lockdown defenders at the 2 position can you name? Tony Allen and Bradley are the only two that I can think of. Kobe and Wade are very good, when they decide to be, but they aren't for entire games.

Bradley is a special, special defender.
Title: Re: Bradley or Sully: Who do you trade?
Post by: GreenEnvy on November 27, 2012, 03:13:59 PM
Yeah I'd wait and see how we play when AB comes back. He may be the solution. If we don't get significantly better, only then DA should explore all options. I don't think he should explore a major move until February, give AB time to get back into his groove and Lee time to get his act together.
Title: Re: Bradley or Sully: Who do you trade?
Post by: SHAQATTACK on November 27, 2012, 03:15:35 PM
NEITHER >:(

ANS....You trade Green and LEE ;D
Title: Re: Bradley or Sully: Who do you trade?
Post by: Lightskinsmurf on November 27, 2012, 03:19:08 PM
Yeah I'd wait and see how we play when AB comes back. He may be the solution. If we don't get significantly better, only then DA should explore all options. I don't think he should explore a major move until February, give AB time to get back into his groove and Lee time to get his act together.

No dude, you're thinking far too logically and being way too patient. A trade needs to happen and it needs to happen now! Idc if its gortat smith or gasol give meeeeee something!!  >:(
Title: Re: Bradley or Sully: Who do you trade?
Post by: wdleehi on November 27, 2012, 03:21:10 PM
I am not sure how you can rate either player clearly higher then the other yet.


AB had one really good but really short run, but has been injured since.


Sully is a rookie who slide in the draft because of health concerns and has not received the same opportunity that AB got to start for a longer stretch. 


Not to mention AB had a whole season and then some before he showed anything. 



Now both could reach the potential some have mentioned.  Or both could be role players. 
Title: Re: Bradley or Sully: Who do you trade?
Post by: Lightskinsmurf on November 27, 2012, 03:40:12 PM
I am not sure how you can rate either player clearly higher then the other yet.


AB had one really good but really short run, but has been injured since.


Sully is a rookie who slide in the draft because of health concerns and has not received the same opportunity that AB got to start for a longer stretch. 


Not to mention AB had a whole season and then some before he showed anything. 



Now both could reach the potential some have mentioned.  Or both could be role players.

The only thing questionable about AB as far as his game goes is his offense. His defense alone *Which we know he will bring night in and night out* is enough for me to pick him over sully.
Title: Re: Bradley or Sully: Who do you trade?
Post by: Chris on November 27, 2012, 03:47:28 PM
I am not sure how you can rate either player clearly higher then the other yet.


AB had one really good but really short run, but has been injured since.


Sully is a rookie who slide in the draft because of health concerns and has not received the same opportunity that AB got to start for a longer stretch. 


Not to mention AB had a whole season and then some before he showed anything. 



Now both could reach the potential some have mentioned.  Or both could be role players.

The only thing questionable about AB as far as his game goes is his offense. His defense alone *Which we know he will bring night in and night out* is enough for me to pick him over sully.

While I agree, his position is also an issue.  I question whether he can cover SGs full time going forward.  He is at his best covering PGs, but can't really play the point on offense.  I personally think covering guys so much bigger than him, played a role in his shoulder injuries last year.  He can do it, but it is a lot of wear and tear on a guy who plays so aggressively against guys bigger and stronger.

Ideally, you would pair him up with a big PG who can defend SGs, but that is not always easy.
Title: Re: Bradley or Sully: Who do you trade?
Post by: OsirusCeltics on November 27, 2012, 03:52:15 PM
Bass in a heartbeat
Title: Re: Bradley or Sully: Who do you trade?
Post by: Section301 on November 27, 2012, 03:57:38 PM
Not for nothing but...it seems a little premature to judge Sullinger's potential value 14 games into his career.  I would certainly say that his level of contribution at this point far exceeds Bradley's at the same point in his career.  If this is his starting point, there is an argument to be made that by the time he reaches year three (where Bradley is now) he will be a much more valuable player than Bradley is currently.  I don't know if I want to make that argument.  I'm just saying it's a little early to be talking about moving him.

As far as I'm concerned, I don't move either of them until you tell me what we're getting back. 
Title: Re: Bradley or Sully: Who do you trade?
Post by: Moranis on November 27, 2012, 04:00:56 PM
I'd give up Bradley.

Sully has a much higher basketball IQ and does a lot more of the little things that help a team win games. Bradley is good at one thing and one thing only and that's man defense; Sully will make the extra pass, use his body to box out and rebound, make smart cuts to the basket... He has more range on his jumper than Bradley as well.

Lockdown defenders come and go but finding a basketball player as smart as Sully at such a young age is hard to do. Sully has boundless potential, very likely to be the next Paul Millsap. Bradley at best is Tony Allen with a corner 3. Give me the heady, all-around talent to the defensive specialist all day every day.

Best of luck with your career, AB, hope things work out for the best.

Well, bradley isn't just GOOD at defense, hes excellent, elite, superb, one of the best in the game. Sully is good at some things but he isnt great at anything or elite. He can be replaced alot easier than bradley can. Also, defensive players like AB do not just come and go i assure you lol.
depends on the type of player Bradley is guarding on just how good his defense is.  He is susceptible to the bigger stronger SG's just backing him down or posting him up.  He does well against the smaller quicker guys (like a Wade), but a guy like Kobe Bryant just brutalizes him because of his size. 
Title: Re: Bradley or Sully: Who do you trade?
Post by: Lightskinsmurf on November 27, 2012, 04:12:57 PM
I'd give up Bradley.

Sully has a much higher basketball IQ and does a lot more of the little things that help a team win games. Bradley is good at one thing and one thing only and that's man defense; Sully will make the extra pass, use his body to box out and rebound, make smart cuts to the basket... He has more range on his jumper than Bradley as well.

Lockdown defenders come and go but finding a basketball player as smart as Sully at such a young age is hard to do. Sully has boundless potential, very likely to be the next Paul Millsap. Bradley at best is Tony Allen with a corner 3. Give me the heady, all-around talent to the defensive specialist all day every day.

Best of luck with your career, AB, hope things work out for the best.

Well, bradley isn't just GOOD at defense, hes excellent, elite, superb, one of the best in the game. Sully is good at some things but he isnt great at anything or elite. He can be replaced alot easier than bradley can. Also, defensive players like AB do not just come and go i assure you lol.
depends on the type of player Bradley is guarding on just how good his defense is.  He is susceptible to the bigger stronger SG's just backing him down or posting him up.  He does well against the smaller quicker guys (like a Wade), but a guy like Kobe Bryant just brutalizes him because of his size.

I don't recall AB ever getting brutalized. Not saying it didn't happen but i don't recall. Can you point it out?
Title: Re: Bradley or Sully: Who do you trade?
Post by: LarBrd33 on November 27, 2012, 04:15:07 PM
(http://i.imgur.com/FPT2T.jpg)
Title: Re: Bradley or Sully: Who do you trade?
Post by: 2short on November 27, 2012, 04:18:12 PM
gulp gulp gulp
(excuse me, drinking green kool aid)

in my world you trade no one, the celtics improve to play an amazing 100% defense with everyone coming in and playing excellent, seamless play from starters to subs
we run teams into the ground

use that last spot (darkos) to sign a vet buyout, whatever position we need help at with injuries
WAIT green kool aid we don't have any injuries
Title: Re: Bradley or Sully: Who do you trade?
Post by: LarBrd33 on November 27, 2012, 04:24:00 PM
I can't wait until Bradley comes back and all this hyperbole about him can end. 

I don't think anyone really knows how great or mediocre he'll be... but calling him a "Top 5 defender" after what amounts to roughly 13 games is like calling Jeremy Lin a "top 5 point guard" after 11 games of Linsanity.
Title: Re: Bradley or Sully: Who do you trade?
Post by: Fafnir on November 27, 2012, 04:28:00 PM
I can't wait until Bradley comes back and all this hyperbole about him can end. 

I don't think anyone really knows how great or mediocre he'll be... but calling him a "Top 5 defender" after what amounts to roughly 13 games is like calling Jeremy Lin a "top 5 point guard" after 11 games of Linsanity.
38 games, roughly 38 games as a starter playing heavy minutes.
Title: Re: Bradley or Sully: Who do you trade?
Post by: alajet on November 27, 2012, 04:32:00 PM
I can't wait until Bradley comes back and all this hyperbole about him can end. 

I don't think anyone really knows how great or mediocre he'll be... but calling him a "Top 5 defender" after what amounts to roughly 13 games is like calling Jeremy Lin a "top 5 point guard" after 11 games of Linsanity.

And you know that they are going to hype him up whatever you may suggest, so, just let it go.
I was thinking the same way about Jeremy Lin and Houston GM fell for it.
At least, here we are fans, not GMs.

If a package containing either Bradley or Sullinger (or both) nets a solid player (preferably bringing in size and rebounding as a starter), I'm doing that trade.
Can't exactly come up with a possible trade scenario at the moment, though.
Title: Re: Bradley or Sully: Who do you trade?
Post by: Change on November 27, 2012, 04:35:37 PM

Well, bradley isn't just GOOD at defense, hes excellent, elite, superb, one of the best in the game. Sully is good at some things but he isnt great at anything or elite. He can be replaced alot easier than bradley can. Also, defensive players like AB do not just come and go i assure you lol.

To say Avery Bradley is one of best perimeter defenders is  understatement of the century. With all due respect to Gary Payton...Avery Bradley will go down as THE greatest perimeter defender ever.
Title: Re: Bradley or Sully: Who do you trade?
Post by: dtrader on November 27, 2012, 04:36:11 PM
I'd give up Bradley.

Sully has a much higher basketball IQ and does a lot more of the little things that help a team win games. Bradley is good at one thing and one thing only and that's man defense; Sully will make the extra pass, use his body to box out and rebound, make smart cuts to the basket... He has more range on his jumper than Bradley as well.

Lockdown defenders come and go but finding a basketball player as smart as Sully at such a young age is hard to do. Sully has boundless potential, very likely to be the next Paul Millsap. Bradley at best is Tony Allen with a corner 3. Give me the heady, all-around talent to the defensive specialist all day every day.

Best of luck with your career, AB, hope things work out for the best.

Well, bradley isn't just GOOD at defense, hes excellent, elite, superb, one of the best in the game. Sully is good at some things but he isnt great at anything or elite. He can be replaced alot easier than bradley can. Also, defensive players like AB do not just come and go i assure you lol.
depends on the type of player Bradley is guarding on just how good his defense is.  He is susceptible to the bigger stronger SG's just backing him down or posting him up.  He does well against the smaller quicker guys (like a Wade), but a guy like Kobe Bryant just brutalizes him because of his size.

I don't recall AB ever getting brutalized. Not saying it didn't happen but i don't recall. Can you point it out?


Gordon Hayward, Gerald Henderson, and joe Johnson were all able to use their height to get anything they wanted over Bradley. John wall was able to use his speed to run by Bradley at will. If Bradley's defense was judged simply against shooting guards (his position), he wouldn't even be average.  Fortunately for him, we've been able to put him against PGs more often than not, and have other players cover for the opposing SG. Plus, even of they don't "come and go", I don't think there's ever Been a player elected to an all star game or even considered a star, who was a liability on offense (which Bradley has been the majority of his career, and IMO would continue to be if he was given any respect by opposing defenders or showcased on a team where he wasn't surrounded by other scorers).

Id easily let Bradley go before sully. You can't teach height. Bradley will always be undersized to play SG (if he learned to dribble or pass like a Point guard I'd take away this entire judgement and let sully go).  Silly has good size, strength, and skills for his position. The league is moving towards shorter more mobile post players, and bigger stronger wings. That trend favors sully, and will increasingly expose Bradley. 

Title: Re: Bradley or Sully: Who do you trade?
Post by: erisred on November 27, 2012, 04:44:50 PM
Neither. Sully was a steal, and AB will be a key piece for this team in the future, if not this year.

This!!

Without a lot more info on who the C's get back, I'd make neither available.

However, in the totally abstract... I'm still not sold on Sullinger being more than an undersized backup PF. I'm waiting for him to convince me he's more than that. Bradley, otoh, I've thought was good since we drafted him, suffered through the injuries and doubts, felt justified during his streak last year, and still feel confident he is going to be very special when he gets back...fully. Getting Bradley should take a very special deal, one I don't see out there.
Title: Re: Bradley or Sully: Who do you trade?
Post by: Lightskinsmurf on November 27, 2012, 04:48:12 PM
I'd give up Bradley.

Sully has a much higher basketball IQ and does a lot more of the little things that help a team win games. Bradley is good at one thing and one thing only and that's man defense; Sully will make the extra pass, use his body to box out and rebound, make smart cuts to the basket... He has more range on his jumper than Bradley as well.

Lockdown defenders come and go but finding a basketball player as smart as Sully at such a young age is hard to do. Sully has boundless potential, very likely to be the next Paul Millsap. Bradley at best is Tony Allen with a corner 3. Give me the heady, all-around talent to the defensive specialist all day every day.

Best of luck with your career, AB, hope things work out for the best.

Well, bradley isn't just GOOD at defense, hes excellent, elite, superb, one of the best in the game. Sully is good at some things but he isnt great at anything or elite. He can be replaced alot easier than bradley can. Also, defensive players like AB do not just come and go i assure you lol.
depends on the type of player Bradley is guarding on just how good his defense is.  He is susceptible to the bigger stronger SG's just backing him down or posting him up.  He does well against the smaller quicker guys (like a Wade), but a guy like Kobe Bryant just brutalizes him because of his size.

I don't recall AB ever getting brutalized. Not saying it didn't happen but i don't recall. Can you point it out?


Gordon Hayward, Gerald Henderson, and joe Johnson were all able to use their height to get anything they wanted over Bradley. John wall was able to use his speed to run by Bradley at will. If Bradley's defense was judged simply against shooting guards (his position), he wouldn't even be average.  Fortunately for him, we've been able to put him against PGs more often than not, and have other players cover for the opposing SG. Plus, even of they don't "come and go", I don't think there's ever Been a player elected to an all star game or even considered a star, who was a liability on offense (which Bradley has been the majority of his career, and IMO would continue to be if he was given any respect by opposing defenders or showcased on a team where he wasn't surrounded by other scorers).

Id easily let Bradley go before sully. You can't teach height. Bradley will always be undersized to play SG (if he learned to dribble or pass like a Point guard I'd take away this entire judgement and let sully go).  Silly has good size, strength, and skills for his position. The league is moving towards shorter more mobile post players, and bigger stronger wings. That trend favors sully, and will increasingly expose Bradley.

I don't recall any of those moments so i can't comment. All i can tell you is our defense was the best in the league once AB was inserted into the starting lineup. To say that is a coincidence is nothing short of ignorance. Also once KG moved to center.

Also i like sully don't get me wrong but bradleys defense is harder to replace than sullys........what? Rebounding. Gortat replaces sullys rebounding easily. Sully doesn't shoot the ball any better than ab. Are you forgetting sully is also undersized at his position? He gets blocked dang near every time he goes up for a shot. What does sully do that can't be replaced by gortat? Nothing. Ab on the other hand, hes a special kind of breed.
Title: Re: Bradley or Sully: Who do you trade?
Post by: LooseCannon on November 27, 2012, 04:48:58 PM
I don't think anyone really knows how great or mediocre he'll be... but calling him a "Top 5 defender" after what amounts to roughly 13 games is like calling Jeremy Lin a "top 5 point guard" after 11 games of Linsanity.

Bradley's defensive ability was obvious even during his rookie season.
Title: Re: Bradley or Sully: Who do you trade?
Post by: Fafnir on November 27, 2012, 04:52:18 PM
I don't think anyone really knows how great or mediocre he'll be... but calling him a "Top 5 defender" after what amounts to roughly 13 games is like calling Jeremy Lin a "top 5 point guard" after 11 games of Linsanity.

Bradley's defensive ability was obvious even during his rookie season.
As was the annual rookie hazing of calling him for a foul whenever possible.
Title: Re: Bradley or Sully: Who do you trade?
Post by: BballTim on November 27, 2012, 05:02:48 PM
I'd give up Bradley.

Sully has a much higher basketball IQ and does a lot more of the little things that help a team win games. Bradley is good at one thing and one thing only and that's man defense; Sully will make the extra pass, use his body to box out and rebound, make smart cuts to the basket... He has more range on his jumper than Bradley as well.


  Bradley's offense really improved as the season went on. I don't think it's true that he's only good at one thing and I don't think we've really seen any evidence that Sully has more range on his jumper than Bradley.
Title: Re: Bradley or Sully: Who do you trade?
Post by: ScoobyDoo on November 27, 2012, 05:15:40 PM
If we're trading for a stud off guard, I'd trade Bradley maybe

If we're trading for a stud PF / big man, I'd probably trade Sully.

I'd be hesitant to trade Avery at this point if it meant we'd be depending on Courtney Lee as our starting off guard. I'd be much more comfortable trading Sully, Lee and picks, for example, if it meant we got Gortat in return.

On pure talent - at this point I'd trade Sully before Bradley. Bradley has "game changer" written all over him. His ball pressure changes games and perhaps more importantly his intensity ignites raises the emotional quotient of the team as a whole. He inspires his teammates, that is an intangible quality that is very valuable and very hard to come by.

Ideally, like someone else said, I'd really rather just keep everyone, let Bradley come back in, see how we play and then just add one more Vet big man either via free agency or through a small trade.

Come back next year with Rondo, Bradley, Joseph, Green, Sully and Melo all a year older and a year better.   
Title: Re: Bradley or Sully: Who do you trade?
Post by: Yogi on November 27, 2012, 05:16:57 PM
I don't believe any player is "untradeable" but unless we are getting a transcendent player, I mean of the Kobe, James, Howard, Dirk, Duncan, KG variety I would be very hesitant to trade away either Bradley or Sullinger.  These two kids have a good chance of being special players and they are 22 and 20 years old. 
Title: Re: Bradley or Sully: Who do you trade?
Post by: Lightskinsmurf on November 27, 2012, 05:28:06 PM
Well, somebody is gonna look like a complete moron once ab returns. I know that much lol. I have enough confidence in the kid to say that moron won't be me. If it is tho, ill own up to it like im hoping all you non AB believers will too. My prediction is, AB returns and we take off defensively and as a team similar to last year.
Title: Re: Bradley or Sully: Who do you trade?
Post by: lightspeed5 on November 27, 2012, 05:36:00 PM
neither because both have a fairly high ceiling that they havent gotten close to
Title: Re: Bradley or Sully: Who do you trade?
Post by: LarBrd33 on November 27, 2012, 05:36:58 PM
I can't wait until Bradley comes back and all this hyperbole about him can end. 

I don't think anyone really knows how great or mediocre he'll be... but calling him a "Top 5 defender" after what amounts to roughly 13 games is like calling Jeremy Lin a "top 5 point guard" after 11 games of Linsanity.
38 games, roughly 38 games as a starter playing heavy minutes.

It's misleading.  A lot of those starts you are referring to came in January when he was pretty dreadful.  He was getting heavy minutes and finished the month averaging 4.8 points, 1.3 turnovers and .7 steals... 40% shooting...10% from three... 64% from the line.  Yeck.

Or the 10 games he started in the playoffs where he averaged 6.7 points, 1 turnover, .8 steals 37% shooting, 27% from three and 66% from the line.

What everyone is salivating over is about 17 games towards the end of March and April (the tail end of a lockout shortened season) where he shot out of his freakin mind and played exceptionally aggressive defense.   It inflated his averages considerably.  I was impressed by it as well.  Made him look like he was a 50%/40%/80% kinda guy.  We beat Miami three times that month and everyone assumed we had their number. 

In game 1 on April 1st, Wade was "held" to a mere 15 points.  Of course, that was partially because Wade was dealing with a knee injury that caused him to miss the very  next game.

We met them again on April 10th ... Wade his missed the game prior with an ankle injury.  Once again, Bradley (who played 25 minutes) "shut down" an injured Wade by holding him to 20 points.  Celtics took game #2.

In Game 3 on April 24th... NONE of Miami's big 3 played.  Boston won. 

Those high profile games at the end of the season in the midst of KG's resurgence and Bradley's ridiculous shooting have inflated Bradley's stock around these parts to Linsanity proportions.    Maybe he's legit... maybe I'm just a worry-wart.  But there hasn't been enough evidence to suggest this guy is a "can't miss" prospect.  There's more evidence suggesting he's going to be a solid miniature Bruce Bowen/Tony Allen off the bench.  A rich man's Marcus Banks.


---

As for Sully.  I like what I see out of him.  Looks like a less emotional Glen Davis.  I'd peg his value about the same as Brandon Bass. 
Title: Re: Bradley or Sully: Who do you trade?
Post by: Meadowlark_Scal on November 27, 2012, 05:37:23 PM
Why are you talking trade....? You won't get anyone for sully......except..another sully...! AB..not a good idea either.
Title: Re: Bradley or Sully: Who do you trade?
Post by: ManUp on November 27, 2012, 05:39:30 PM
The fat one, duh!
Title: Re: Bradley or Sully: Who do you trade?
Post by: Evantime34 on November 27, 2012, 05:42:23 PM
You trade Sullinger because his ceiling is limited with his athleticism. Bradley already plays elite defense has good habits and is a very good athlete.
Title: Re: Bradley or Sully: Who do you trade?
Post by: Vermont Green on November 27, 2012, 05:44:27 PM
For all those who are selling on Sullinger, be careful when you compare Sullinger so far this year with what you think Bradley will be this year.  Think if we were having this conversation and Bradley was still a rookie as well.  He was pretty bad that year as compared to Sullinger this year.

I am not saying that Sullinger is more of a keeper than Bradley, just playing devil's advocate a little.  Sullinger will get better just like Bradley did (and will continue to).

My bottom line would be to keep Bradley becasue he is more valuable (assuming recovery from surgeries) this year and we need to stay in the present with this team.
Title: Re: Bradley or Sully: Who do you trade?
Post by: Eja117 on November 27, 2012, 05:52:38 PM
D Wade hopes we trade Avery
Title: Re: Bradley or Sully: Who do you trade?
Post by: bfrombleacher on November 27, 2012, 05:56:55 PM
I'd trade neither.

But if I absolutely had to, I'd trade AB simply because we do have defense from CLee and plenty of guards. Having a decent big man on the team next to KG pretty much means we're unbeatable. The thought of that is incredibly alluring.

I'm, however, on the side of those who think if this team can figure it out, it's a contender for the next 3 years.

All of our young players' values will only go up at this point.

Plus a core of AB, Rondo, Sully, Bass is solid contenders when you add another star.
Title: Re: Bradley or Sully: Who do you trade?
Post by: Lightskinsmurf on November 27, 2012, 06:05:36 PM
D Wade hopes we trade Avery

lol hell yeah. I recall somebody telling avery to "Chill out" on defense because he was playing so well all game long it was annoying the other team LOL!.
Title: Re: Bradley or Sully: Who do you trade?
Post by: More Banners on November 27, 2012, 06:19:23 PM
Trading either would have to be a win-now move, which means Sully is the one to go, being less able to contribute in the Finals this year.

But I'm not sure I want to bother to give up anything on the roster in trade to simply return another journeyman.  Maybe Melo, but I'm keeping Joseph even.  It's just not worth the trouble to reshuffle the chairs.

But if it comes down to trading up for a current allstart talent (or nearly so), I'd have to say do what it takes.  But I'm so high on both that I think I'd have a hard time letting both go for anything but a star or allstar.

Bradley, Sullinger, Joseph, Pick is one heck of a start to a package, especially when they can be matched with two journeymen starters, a guard (Lee) and forward (Bass).  Add it up, and it's a nice deal to a rebuilding team:

Lee+Bass=$11M+Bradley+Sullinger=$15M-$16M for an allstar?

What's left:

Rondo/Barbosa
Terry/_______
Pierce/Green/Joseph
________/Wilcox
KG/Collins/Melo

Need to add a couple of min contracts or take back 2nd rounders or something cheap to stay under the cap, but that's a rotation that coule make it with, oh, say, Josh Smith extended? 

Enough chips to cash in, enough horses to win with that rotation+Smith?

I say trade all or none!


Title: Re: Bradley or Sully: Who do you trade?
Post by: dtrader on November 27, 2012, 06:21:27 PM
I'd give up Bradley.

Sully has a much higher basketball IQ and does a lot more of the little things that help a team win games. Bradley is good at one thing and one thing only and that's man defense; Sully will make the extra pass, use his body to box out and rebound, make smart cuts to the basket... He has more range on his jumper than Bradley as well.

Lockdown defenders come and go but finding a basketball player as smart as Sully at such a young age is hard to do. Sully has boundless potential, very likely to be the next Paul Millsap. Bradley at best is Tony Allen with a corner 3. Give me the heady, all-around talent to the defensive specialist all day every day.

Best of luck with your career, AB, hope things work out for the best.

Well, bradley isn't just GOOD at defense, hes excellent, elite, superb, one of the best in the game. Sully is good at some things but he isnt great at anything or elite. He can be replaced alot easier than bradley can. Also, defensive players like AB do not just come and go i assure you lol.
depends on the type of player Bradley is guarding on just how good his defense is.  He is susceptible to the bigger stronger SG's just backing him down or posting him up.  He does well against the smaller quicker guys (like a Wade), but a guy like Kobe Bryant just brutalizes him because of his size.

I don't recall AB ever getting brutalized. Not saying it didn't happen but i don't recall. Can you point it out?


Gordon Hayward, Gerald Henderson, and joe Johnson were all able to use their height to get anything they wanted over Bradley. John wall was able to use his speed to run by Bradley at will. If Bradley's defense was judged simply against shooting guards (his position), he wouldn't even be average.  Fortunately for him, we've been able to put him against PGs more often than not, and have other players cover for the opposing SG. Plus, even of they don't "come and go", I don't think there's ever Been a player elected to an all star game or even considered a star, who was a liability on offense (which Bradley has been the majority of his career, and IMO would continue to be if he was given any respect by opposing defenders or showcased on a team where he wasn't surrounded by other scorers).

Id easily let Bradley go before sully. You can't teach height. Bradley will always be undersized to play SG (if he learned to dribble or pass like a Point guard I'd take away this entire judgement and let sully go).  Silly has good size, strength, and skills for his position. The league is moving towards shorter more mobile post players, and bigger stronger wings. That trend favors sully, and will increasingly expose Bradley.

I don't recall any of those moments so i can't comment. All i can tell you is our defense was the best in the league once AB was inserted into the starting lineup. To say that is a coincidence is nothing short of ignorance. Also once KG moved to center.

Also i like sully don't get me wrong but bradleys defense is harder to replace than sullys........what? Rebounding. Gortat replaces sullys rebounding easily. Sully doesn't shoot the ball any better than ab. Are you forgetting sully is also undersized at his position? He gets blocked dang near every time he goes up for a shot. What does sully do that can't be replaced by gortat? Nothing. Ab on the other hand, hes a special kind of breed.

The fact that you're using gortat (a true center whos arguably top 10 at his center position), to a rookie PF says a lot.  Add in the fact that gortat is a sought after player with a 7 + million contract that most think is cheap, and you see even more where sullys value can be.  Additionally, sully ( for his position), is a great rebounder, above average passer, and well above average ball handler. As I explained before, the league is moving towards smaller front courts and bigger stronger wings, so size is only against Bradley.

You're talking about Bradley's defense being irreplaceable, but what defense are you talking about?  When have you seen him lock down a premiere shooting guard? Supposedly that's his position, but I've never seen it.  He's had a few highlight reel plays, but in total, I've never seen him shut down a good SG. He has destroyed second tier point guards. I agree the celts played great when he was starting, but like you said...that's also due to KGs increased production moving to center, and the fact that Brandon bass had a stretch of some of the best games of his career.

In my eyes, Avery Bradley is so far a one trick pony. He excels at guarding other small players (especially those slower than him).  He is a below average shooter at the 2 spot, and he is a below average ball handler and passer than most starting guards.  I think he literally averages about as many turnovers as he does assists. He's a below average rebounder at his position as well.

At his position (PF), sully is above average across the board, and borderline elite at rebounding.  His only area of weakness ( if you can even call it that since hes a great defensive rebounder), is defense, and almost every rookie big man struggles there.

Title: Re: Bradley or Sully: Who do you trade?
Post by: Big Rondo on November 27, 2012, 06:30:54 PM

Well, bradley isn't just GOOD at defense, hes excellent, elite, superb, one of the best in the game. Sully is good at some things but he isnt great at anything or elite. He can be replaced alot easier than bradley can. Also, defensive players like AB do not just come and go i assure you lol.

To say Avery Bradley is one of best perimeter defenders is  understatement of the century. With all due respect to Gary Payton...Avery Bradley will go down as THE greatest perimeter defender ever.

(http://gifsoup.com/webroot/animatedgifs4/2101092_o.gif)

#bradleysanity
Title: Re: Bradley or Sully: Who do you trade?
Post by: Change on November 27, 2012, 06:58:29 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B160-NrWQvg

This kid has a sweet Jumper. Future 20+ppg scorer imo.
Title: Re: Bradley or Sully: Who do you trade?
Post by: BballTim on November 27, 2012, 07:00:19 PM
I can't wait until Bradley comes back and all this hyperbole about him can end. 

I don't think anyone really knows how great or mediocre he'll be... but calling him a "Top 5 defender" after what amounts to roughly 13 games is like calling Jeremy Lin a "top 5 point guard" after 11 games of Linsanity.
38 games, roughly 38 games as a starter playing heavy minutes.

It's misleading.  A lot of those starts you are referring to came in January when he was pretty dreadful.  He was getting heavy minutes and finished the month averaging 4.8 points, 1.3 turnovers and .7 steals... 40% shooting...10% from three... 64% from the line.  Yeck.

Or the 10 games he started in the playoffs where he averaged 6.7 points, 1 turnover, .8 steals 37% shooting, 27% from three and 66% from the line.

What everyone is salivating over is about 17 games towards the end of March and April (the tail end of a lockout shortened season) where he shot out of his freakin mind and played exceptionally aggressive defense.   It inflated his averages considerably.  I was impressed by it as well.  Made him look like he was a 50%/40%/80% kinda guy.  We beat Miami three times that month and everyone assumed we had their number. 

  I don't know how many games you actually watch, but you're talking about scoring and shooting percentages in a conversation about his defense. His good defensive play was pretty noticeable back in January, in fact he had his signature game vs Jameer during that stretch. His offense picked up a lot in the spring, not his defense.
Title: Re: Bradley or Sully: Who do you trade?
Post by: BballTim on November 27, 2012, 07:02:30 PM

Well, bradley isn't just GOOD at defense, hes excellent, elite, superb, one of the best in the game. Sully is good at some things but he isnt great at anything or elite. He can be replaced alot easier than bradley can. Also, defensive players like AB do not just come and go i assure you lol.

To say Avery Bradley is one of best perimeter defenders is  understatement of the century. With all due respect to Gary Payton...Avery Bradley will go down as THE greatest perimeter defender ever.

  Did you actually see Payton play?
Title: Re: Bradley or Sully: Who do you trade?
Post by: bfrombleacher on November 27, 2012, 07:13:45 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B160-NrWQvg

This kid has a sweet Jumper. Future 20+ppg scorer imo.

Fab Melo might be as good as Hollins on the offensive end right now...possibly better on D too (at least man to man).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l66HguwskuU

Edit: also, neither have any rebounding to speak of so that's a wash
Title: Re: Bradley or Sully: Who do you trade?
Post by: hpantazo on November 27, 2012, 07:25:33 PM

Well, bradley isn't just GOOD at defense, hes excellent, elite, superb, one of the best in the game. Sully is good at some things but he isnt great at anything or elite. He can be replaced alot easier than bradley can. Also, defensive players like AB do not just come and go i assure you lol.

To say Avery Bradley is one of best perimeter defenders is  understatement of the century. With all due respect to Gary Payton...Avery Bradley will go down as THE greatest perimeter defender ever.

  Did you actually see Payton play?

It's amazing how Bradley's legend grows the more he sits out. People forget that he has played very few games, and during his first year and a half in the NBA most people on here wanted to straight up cut him and insisted he was not an NBA level player. He played good defense for a short stretch, had one good block on DWade while Wade was injured, and suddenly he's the greatest defender of all time!!! If that were only true, we could actually trade him for an all-star.

Let's not forget that he has about a 50% ratio of having his pocked picked when he brings the ball up the floor, often looking like a high school player, and he makes a ton of errors on offense that leave people scratching their heads.
Title: Re: Bradley or Sully: Who do you trade?
Post by: SHAQATTACK on November 27, 2012, 07:44:02 PM
D Wade hopes we trade Avery

TP !!!
Title: Re: Bradley or Sully: Who do you trade?
Post by: droopdog7 on November 27, 2012, 07:46:10 PM
I'd give up Bradley.

Sully has a much higher basketball IQ and does a lot more of the little things that help a team win games. Bradley is good at one thing and one thing only and that's man defense; Sully will make the extra pass, use his body to box out and rebound, make smart cuts to the basket... He has more range on his jumper than Bradley as well.

Lockdown defenders come and go but finding a basketball player as smart as Sully at such a young age is hard to do. Sully has boundless potential, very likely to be the next Paul Millsap. Bradley at best is Tony Allen with a corner 3. Give me the heady, all-around talent to the defensive specialist all day every day.

Best of luck with your career, AB, hope things work out for the best.

Well, bradley isn't just GOOD at defense, hes excellent, elite, superb, one of the best in the game. Sully is good at some things but he isnt great at anything or elite. He can be replaced alot easier than bradley can. Also, defensive players like AB do not just come and go i assure you lol.
depends on the type of player Bradley is guarding on just how good his defense is.  He is susceptible to the bigger stronger SG's just backing him down or posting him up.  He does well against the smaller quicker guys (like a Wade), but a guy like Kobe Bryant just brutalizes him because of his size.

I don't recall AB ever getting brutalized. Not saying it didn't happen but i don't recall. Can you point it out?
When we played the Hawks, Bradley had to be taken off Joe Johnson because he was just too big for him.  I agree that Bradley would not do well against certain guys (e.g., kobe, and JJ) but there aren't that many of them.
Title: Re: Bradley or Sully: Who do you trade?
Post by: SHAQATTACK on November 27, 2012, 07:51:38 PM
I'd give up Bradley.

Sully has a much higher basketball IQ and does a lot more of the little things that help a team win games. Bradley is good at one thing and one thing only and that's man defense; Sully will make the extra pass, use his body to box out and rebound, make smart cuts to the basket... He has more range on his jumper than Bradley as well.

Lockdown defenders come and go but finding a basketball player as smart as Sully at such a young age is hard to do. Sully has boundless potential, very likely to be the next Paul Millsap. Bradley at best is Tony Allen with a corner 3. Give me the heady, all-around talent to the defensive specialist all day every day.

Best of luck with your career, AB, hope things work out for the best.

Well, bradley isn't just GOOD at defense, hes excellent, elite, superb, one of the best in the game. Sully is good at some things but he isnt great at anything or elite. He can be replaced alot easier than bradley can. Also, defensive players like AB do not just come and go i assure you lol.
depends on the type of player Bradley is guarding on just how good his defense is.  He is susceptible to the bigger stronger SG's just backing him down or posting him up.  He does well against the smaller quicker guys (like a Wade), but a guy like Kobe Bryant just brutalizes him because of his size.

I don't recall AB ever getting brutalized. Not saying it didn't happen but i don't recall. Can you point it out?
When we played the Hawks, Bradley had to be taken off Joe Johnson because he was just too big for him.  I agree that Bradley would not do well against certain guys (e.g., kobe, and JJ) but there aren't that many of them.

I'm hoping Joseph can take that job on the taller guards one day. 
Title: Re: Bradley or Sully: Who do you trade?
Post by: Lightskinsmurf on November 27, 2012, 08:25:38 PM

Well, bradley isn't just GOOD at defense, hes excellent, elite, superb, one of the best in the game. Sully is good at some things but he isnt great at anything or elite. He can be replaced alot easier than bradley can. Also, defensive players like AB do not just come and go i assure you lol.

To say Avery Bradley is one of best perimeter defenders is  understatement of the century. With all due respect to Gary Payton...Avery Bradley will go down as THE greatest perimeter defender ever.

  Did you actually see Payton play?

It's amazing how Bradley's legend grows the more he sits out.

Its also amazing how the longer he sits out the more of a bum he becomes that had little to do with our complete turn around in the second half of last year.
Title: Re: Bradley or Sully: Who do you trade?
Post by: hpantazo on November 27, 2012, 08:29:53 PM

Well, bradley isn't just GOOD at defense, hes excellent, elite, superb, one of the best in the game. Sully is good at some things but he isnt great at anything or elite. He can be replaced alot easier than bradley can. Also, defensive players like AB do not just come and go i assure you lol.

To say Avery Bradley is one of best perimeter defenders is  understatement of the century. With all due respect to Gary Payton...Avery Bradley will go down as THE greatest perimeter defender ever.

  Did you actually see Payton play?

It's amazing how Bradley's legend grows the more he sits out.

Its also amazing how the longer he sits out the more of a bum he becomes that had little to do with our complete turn around in the second half of last year.

I don't see a single person on here calling him a bum. I think he's a good player. He has limitations however and still has to prove himself in many ways. He is nowhere near being a "franchise savior" or "greatest defender of all-time". That is crazy talk.

As for our turnaround last year, Bradley missed our entire playoff run, where we played excellent team defense and where within 5 minutes in game 7 of the ECF of beating  the eventual champs, all without Bradley.
Title: Re: Bradley or Sully: Who do you trade?
Post by: cman88 on November 27, 2012, 08:33:15 PM
finally the C's have two good young players with upside who can help us NOW and in the future and all the threads are..'oh lets trade them!"
Title: Re: Bradley or Sully: Who do you trade?
Post by: MJohnnyboy on November 27, 2012, 08:35:59 PM
I'd give up Bradley.

Sully has a much higher basketball IQ and does a lot more of the little things that help a team win games. Bradley is good at one thing and one thing only and that's man defense; Sully will make the extra pass, use his body to box out and rebound, make smart cuts to the basket... He has more range on his jumper than Bradley as well.

Lockdown defenders come and go but finding a basketball player as smart as Sully at such a young age is hard to do. Sully has boundless potential, very likely to be the next Paul Millsap. Bradley at best is Tony Allen with a corner 3. Give me the heady, all-around talent to the defensive specialist all day every day.

Best of luck with your career, AB, hope things work out for the best.

Well, bradley isn't just GOOD at defense, hes excellent, elite, superb, one of the best in the game. Sully is good at some things but he isnt great at anything or elite. He can be replaced alot easier than bradley can. Also, defensive players like AB do not just come and go i assure you lol.
depends on the type of player Bradley is guarding on just how good his defense is.  He is susceptible to the bigger stronger SG's just backing him down or posting him up.  He does well against the smaller quicker guys (like a Wade), but a guy like Kobe Bryant just brutalizes him because of his size.

I don't recall AB ever getting brutalized. Not saying it didn't happen but i don't recall. Can you point it out?
When we played the Hawks, Bradley had to be taken off Joe Johnson because he was just too big for him.  I agree that Bradley would not do well against certain guys (e.g., kobe, and JJ) but there aren't that many of them.

I'm hoping Joseph can take that job on the taller guards one day.

There's a man I'd like to introduce you to. His name is Courtney Lee.
Title: Re: Bradley or Sully: Who do you trade?
Post by: Lightskinsmurf on November 27, 2012, 08:37:38 PM

Well, bradley isn't just GOOD at defense, hes excellent, elite, superb, one of the best in the game. Sully is good at some things but he isnt great at anything or elite. He can be replaced alot easier than bradley can. Also, defensive players like AB do not just come and go i assure you lol.

To say Avery Bradley is one of best perimeter defenders is  understatement of the century. With all due respect to Gary Payton...Avery Bradley will go down as THE greatest perimeter defender ever.

  Did you actually see Payton play?

It's amazing how Bradley's legend grows the more he sits out.

Its also amazing how the longer he sits out the more of a bum he becomes that had little to do with our complete turn around in the second half of last year.

I don't see a single person on here calling him a bum. I think he's a good player. He has limitations however and still has to prove himself in many ways. He is nowhere near being a "franchise savior" or "greatest defender of all-time". That is crazy talk.

I'm glad you said that because that's how i feel when i read alot of your comments. If anybody is hyping up bradley its the people that are in favor of trading him lol. Who called him a franchise savior? You're being a hypocrite right now. He is the best defender on this team after KG. He was a huge part in us turning our season around last year. True or false?
Title: Re: Bradley or Sully: Who do you trade?
Post by: Fafnir on November 27, 2012, 08:42:23 PM


As for our turnaround last year, Bradley missed our entire playoff run, where we played excellent team defense and where within 5 minutes in game 7 of the ECF of beating  the eventual champs, all without Bradley.
He played in the first 10 playoff games. He didn't shoot well but overall we continued to kill the opposition with our starting unit with him in it.
Title: Re: Bradley or Sully: Who do you trade?
Post by: hpantazo on November 27, 2012, 08:45:20 PM

Well, bradley isn't just GOOD at defense, hes excellent, elite, superb, one of the best in the game. Sully is good at some things but he isnt great at anything or elite. He can be replaced alot easier than bradley can. Also, defensive players like AB do not just come and go i assure you lol.

To say Avery Bradley is one of best perimeter defenders is  understatement of the century. With all due respect to Gary Payton...Avery Bradley will go down as THE greatest perimeter defender ever.

  Did you actually see Payton play?

It's amazing how Bradley's legend grows the more he sits out.

Its also amazing how the longer he sits out the more of a bum he becomes that had little to do with our complete turn around in the second half of last year.

I don't see a single person on here calling him a bum. I think he's a good player. He has limitations however and still has to prove himself in many ways. He is nowhere near being a "franchise savior" or "greatest defender of all-time". That is crazy talk.

I'm glad you said that because that's how i feel when i read alot of your comments. If anybody is hyping up bradley its the people that are in favor of trading him lol. Who called him a franchise savior? You're being a hypocrite right now. He is the best defender on this team after KG. He was a huge part in us turning our season around last year. True or false?

False. Again, we made our playoff run without him. We were within 5 minutes in game 7 of the ECF of beating the eventual champs, without him. Most people who followed this team closely the last 3 years know that these guys, for better or worse, take many games off and play hard only when they need to, mostly only during the playoffs.

I like Bradley, he's a very good player, an excellent defender, and may get better. He has some limitations though. He needs to improve his ball handling, his passing, and his overall understanding of the game. He also needs to prove he can stay healthy for at least a whole season. Hopefully he will do all of those things. I just think it's very premature to say that we can't contend without him and that he will be the greatest defender of all-time, as highlighted in your post above.
Title: Re: Bradley or Sully: Who do you trade?
Post by: LooseCannon on November 27, 2012, 08:48:21 PM
I don't see a single person on here calling him a bum. I think he's a good player. He has limitations however and still has to prove himself in many ways.

I just want people to accept that Bradley's height is not a severe limitation that makes it practically impossible for him to ever become an above-average NBA starting shooting guard.
Title: Re: Bradley or Sully: Who do you trade?
Post by: Lightskinsmurf on November 27, 2012, 08:56:41 PM

Well, bradley isn't just GOOD at defense, hes excellent, elite, superb, one of the best in the game. Sully is good at some things but he isnt great at anything or elite. He can be replaced alot easier than bradley can. Also, defensive players like AB do not just come and go i assure you lol.

To say Avery Bradley is one of best perimeter defenders is  understatement of the century. With all due respect to Gary Payton...Avery Bradley will go down as THE greatest perimeter defender ever.

  Did you actually see Payton play?

It's amazing how Bradley's legend grows the more he sits out.

Its also amazing how the longer he sits out the more of a bum he becomes that had little to do with our complete turn around in the second half of last year.

I don't see a single person on here calling him a bum. I think he's a good player. He has limitations however and still has to prove himself in many ways. He is nowhere near being a "franchise savior" or "greatest defender of all-time". That is crazy talk.

I'm glad you said that because that's how i feel when i read alot of your comments. If anybody is hyping up bradley its the people that are in favor of trading him lol. Who called him a franchise savior? You're being a hypocrite right now. He is the best defender on this team after KG. He was a huge part in us turning our season around last year. True or false?

False. Again, we made our playoff run without him. We were within 5 minutes in game 7 of the ECF of beating the eventual champs, without him. Most people who followed this team closely the last 3 years know that these guys, for better or worse, take many games off and play hard only when they need to, mostly only during the playoffs.

I like Bradley, he's a very good player, an excellent defender, and may get better. He has some limitations though. He needs to improve his ball handling, his passing, and his overall understanding of the game. He also needs to prove he can stay healthy for at least a whole season. Hopefully he will do all of those things. I just think it's very premature to say that we can't contend without him and that he will be the greatest defender of all-time, as highlighted in your post above.

How are you gonna say false and then say a false claim yourself. I can't take you seriously anymore. We didn't make a playoff run without him. We were under 500 and in danger of missing the playoffs and blowing the whole team up if we didn't turn things around when we did.

AB played in the playoffs he just didn't play in the miami series. Also i wasn't even just talking about the playoffs i was talking about when we were under 500 and looking terrible. But to give bradley no credit for turning our season around last year.......i simply can't take you seriously anymore.

Title: Re: Bradley or Sully: Who do you trade?
Post by: hpantazo on November 27, 2012, 09:07:17 PM

Well, bradley isn't just GOOD at defense, hes excellent, elite, superb, one of the best in the game. Sully is good at some things but he isnt great at anything or elite. He can be replaced alot easier than bradley can. Also, defensive players like AB do not just come and go i assure you lol.

To say Avery Bradley is one of best perimeter defenders is  understatement of the century. With all due respect to Gary Payton...Avery Bradley will go down as THE greatest perimeter defender ever.

  Did you actually see Payton play?

It's amazing how Bradley's legend grows the more he sits out.

Its also amazing how the longer he sits out the more of a bum he becomes that had little to do with our complete turn around in the second half of last year.

I don't see a single person on here calling him a bum. I think he's a good player. He has limitations however and still has to prove himself in many ways. He is nowhere near being a "franchise savior" or "greatest defender of all-time". That is crazy talk.

I'm glad you said that because that's how i feel when i read alot of your comments. If anybody is hyping up bradley its the people that are in favor of trading him lol. Who called him a franchise savior? You're being a hypocrite right now. He is the best defender on this team after KG. He was a huge part in us turning our season around last year. True or false?

False. Again, we made our playoff run without him. We were within 5 minutes in game 7 of the ECF of beating the eventual champs, without him. Most people who followed this team closely the last 3 years know that these guys, for better or worse, take many games off and play hard only when they need to, mostly only during the playoffs.

I like Bradley, he's a very good player, an excellent defender, and may get better. He has some limitations though. He needs to improve his ball handling, his passing, and his overall understanding of the game. He also needs to prove he can stay healthy for at least a whole season. Hopefully he will do all of those things. I just think it's very premature to say that we can't contend without him and that he will be the greatest defender of all-time, as highlighted in your post above.

How are you gonna say false and then say a false claim yourself. I can't take you seriously anymore. We didn't make a playoff run without him. We were under 500 and in danger of missing the playoffs and blowing the whole team up if we didn't turn things around when we did.

AB played in the playoffs he just didn't play in the miami series. Also i wasn't even just talking about the playoffs i was talking about when we were under 500 and looking terrible. But to give bradley no credit for turning our season around last year.......i simply can't take you seriously anymore.

Yep, you just ignored all the points I made about these celtics teams not giving a full effort for large parts of the regular season the last few years. Bradley helped for sure, but he in no way turned our season around, KG, Paul, Rondo, and Ray finally decided to turn the switch on and play hard, as they did the year before when we went to game 7 of the NBA Finals after everyone wrote us off and booed the celtics off the floor in midseason for sucking badly against poor teams. Bradley had nothing at all to do with our success that year.
Title: Re: Bradley or Sully: Who do you trade?
Post by: cman88 on November 27, 2012, 09:10:37 PM
it all comes down to ball pressure and dribble penetration...the way bradley took on the opposing team's guard half-court just took them out of their sets, leaving them 10-15seconds to do anything.

also, his ability to stay in front of his man allowed KG/Bass to stay in the paint and not help as much

our starting lineup is 4/5 the same but we are having trouble with the pick & roll, and last year we had one of the scariest defenses after he began to start...the only difference? bradley.

now, whether his offense returns to form remains to be seen, but his defense Clearly made us a better team last year.

Title: Re: Bradley or Sully: Who do you trade?
Post by: hpantazo on November 27, 2012, 09:12:26 PM
I don't see a single person on here calling him a bum. I think he's a good player. He has limitations however and still has to prove himself in many ways.

I just want people to accept that Bradley's height is not a severe limitation that makes it practically impossible for him to ever become an above-average NBA starting shooting guard.

It's not at all a severe limitation. Joe Dumars for example was a great SG at that height. His current limitations are lack of ball handling/passing skills and overall understanding of the game, along with long term durability health wise.
Title: Re: Bradley or Sully: Who do you trade?
Post by: hpantazo on November 27, 2012, 09:13:22 PM
it all comes down to ball pressure and dribble penetration...the way bradley took on the opposing team's guard half-court just took them out of their sets, leaving them 10-15seconds to do anything.

also, his ability to stay in front of his man allowed KG/Bass to stay in the paint and not help as much

our starting lineup is 4/5 the same but we are having trouble with the pick & roll, and last year we had one of the scariest defenses after he began to start...the only difference? bradley. Ray Allen

now, whether his offense returns to form remains to be seen, but his defense Clearly made us a better team last year.

Fixed that for you.
Title: Re: Bradley or Sully: Who do you trade?
Post by: bfrombleacher on November 27, 2012, 09:15:51 PM
I don't see a single person on here calling him a bum. I think he's a good player. He has limitations however and still has to prove himself in many ways.

I just want people to accept that Bradley's height is not a severe limitation that makes it practically impossible for him to ever become an above-average NBA starting shooting guard.

It's not at all a severe limitation. Joe Dumars for example was a great SG at that height. His current limitations are lack of ball handling/passing skills and overall understanding of the game, along with long term durability health wise.

For a shooting guard his handles seem okay. Although, of course, if they start scouting his offense his handles might come under the spotlight.

As a scoring guard he's been pretty good. He's always been a pretty good scorer.
Title: Re: Bradley or Sully: Who do you trade?
Post by: bfrombleacher on November 27, 2012, 09:18:00 PM
it all comes down to ball pressure and dribble penetration...the way bradley took on the opposing team's guard half-court just took them out of their sets, leaving them 10-15seconds to do anything.

also, his ability to stay in front of his man allowed KG/Bass to stay in the paint and not help as much

our starting lineup is 4/5 the same but we are having trouble with the pick & roll, and last year we had one of the scariest defenses after he began to start...the only difference? bradley. Ray Allen

now, whether his offense returns to form remains to be seen, but his defense Clearly made us a better team last year.

Fixed that for you.

Naw...

It's Garnett playing 30< a game and no 7 footer to back him up on top of the fact that this team has only just been thrown together.

"He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named" hasn't been playing good defense from what I've heard.
Title: Re: Bradley or Sully: Who do you trade?
Post by: cman88 on November 27, 2012, 09:21:24 PM
it all comes down to ball pressure and dribble penetration...the way bradley took on the opposing team's guard half-court just took them out of their sets, leaving them 10-15seconds to do anything.

also, his ability to stay in front of his man allowed KG/Bass to stay in the paint and not help as much

our starting lineup is 4/5 the same but we are having trouble with the pick & roll, and last year we had one of the scariest defenses after he began to start...the only difference? bradley. Ray Allen

now, whether his offense returns to form remains to be seen, but his defense Clearly made us a better team last year.

Fixed that for you.


um...this team didnt actually start to improve until Bradley was moved into the starting lineup and KG was moved to center.

Ray allen was decent defensively in the playoffs...but we didnt start to post scary Defensive numbers until Bradley started

and even when Ray came back, Doc clearly thought Bradley's defense was good enough to keep bradley starting
Title: Re: Bradley or Sully: Who do you trade?
Post by: Celtics4ever on November 27, 2012, 09:23:05 PM
I think Bradley did change the tone of the team when he played last year.   It was subtle but D picked up when other guys saw him in his stance.  Effort can be contagious, Bradley has that to some degree.  Guys dig in.

Some of the penetration will stop when he gets back because he eats up a lot of shot clock by playing such good man on ball defense.   
Title: Re: Bradley or Sully: Who do you trade?
Post by: More Banners on November 27, 2012, 09:45:57 PM
Can we get another poll:  Do you package Bradley, Sullinger, Joseph, Melo, 2014 #1, and Bass for a shot and a near-star?

What contracts might that amount of money add up to?

EDIT:

Shooting the whole wad at once:

Bass for salary and Sullinger, Bradley, Joseph, and Melo for talent (1 for 5) could net us....Al Horford, giving an 8-player rotation of

Rondo
Terry
Pierce
Horford
KG

Barbosa
Green
Wilcox

Collins
Min pick-ups/old summer league guys or whatever:  good cheer leaders.
Title: Re: Bradley or Sully: Who do you trade?
Post by: BballTim on November 27, 2012, 09:48:28 PM

How are you gonna say false and then say a false claim yourself. I can't take you seriously anymore. We didn't make a playoff run without him. We were under 500 and in danger of missing the playoffs and blowing the whole team up if we didn't turn things around when we did.


  There were a lot of things that led to our turnaround. PP and KG getting into shape, Bradley and Bass replacing Ray and JO, and Doc giving Rondo more control of the offense (and Rondo going on the assist streak). You can't point to any one thing as the reason.

 I give a lot of credit to Bass and Bradley going into the starting lineup but that doesn't make them more than our 4th and 5th most important players. The team with Rondo/Ray/PP/KG/JO was way too old and unathletic to compete, putting in a couple of players like Bradley and Bass brought about a much better mix of players.
Title: Re: Bradley or Sully: Who do you trade?
Post by: Lightskinsmurf on November 27, 2012, 09:51:04 PM

How are you gonna say false and then say a false claim yourself. I can't take you seriously anymore. We didn't make a playoff run without him. We were under 500 and in danger of missing the playoffs and blowing the whole team up if we didn't turn things around when we did.


  There were a lot of things that led to our turnaround. PP and KG getting into shape, Bradley and Bass replacing Ray and JO, and Doc giving Rondo more control of the offense (and Rondo going on the assist streak). You can't point to any one thing as the reason.

 I give a lot of credit to Bass and Bradley going into the starting lineup but that doesn't make them more than our 4th and 5th most important players. The team with Rondo/Ray/PP/KG/JO was way too old and unathletic to compete, putting in a couple of players like Bradley and Bass brought about a much better mix of players.

Never once claimed bradley was the sole reason. He was certainly one of the biggest tho along with KG.
Title: Re: Bradley or Sully: Who do you trade?
Post by: Kane3387 on November 27, 2012, 10:34:24 PM
Props to Ainge for getting these guys so low in the draft. He does really well with these picks outside the lottery that aren't at the end of the first round.
Title: Re: Bradley or Sully: Who do you trade?
Post by: indeedproceed on November 27, 2012, 10:43:35 PM
Sullinger, you go for the ceiling, not the basement when dealing with prospects.
Title: Re: Bradley or Sully: Who do you trade?
Post by: action781 on November 27, 2012, 10:54:42 PM
Sullinger, you go for the ceiling, not the basement when dealing with prospects.

I'm actually not sure which player has the higher ceiling.  Would you argue that Sullinger's ceiling is not a Zach Randolph?  I think Avery Bradley's too unique of a player to pin down a comparison, but I'm not sure if there was it would be a player of too much higher caliber than Z-Bo.  I absolutely love Bradley, but I don't see a multiple all-star appearance ceiling from Bradley, which is what I think it would take to have a higher ceiling than Sullinger.

That said, I would also rather trade Sullinger because I think we're in a much better situation to contend now then we will be down the road and Bradley can help us in the now more than Sullinger can.
Title: Re: Bradley or Sully: Who do you trade?
Post by: indeedproceed on November 27, 2012, 11:01:37 PM
Sullinger, you go for the ceiling, not the basement when dealing with prospects.

I'm actually not sure which player has the higher ceiling.  Would you argue that Sullinger's ceiling is not a Zach Randolph?  I think Avery Bradley's too unique of a player to pin down a comparison, but I'm not sure if there was it would be a player of too much higher caliber than Z-Bo.  I absolutely love Bradley, but I don't see a multiple all-star appearance ceiling from Bradley, which is what I think it would take to have a higher ceiling than Sullinger.

That said, I would also rather trade Sullinger because I think we're in a much better situation to contend now then we will be down the road and Bradley can help us in the now more than Sullinger can.

I'd think the ceiling is more Boozer than Z-Bo. I think Bradley's ceiling is a bit higher.
Title: Re: Bradley or Sully: Who do you trade?
Post by: crimson_stallion on November 27, 2012, 11:46:22 PM
Yep, you just ignored all the points I made about these celtics teams not giving a full effort for large parts of the regular season the last few years. Bradley helped for sure, but he in no way turned our season around, KG, Paul, Rondo, and Ray finally decided to turn the switch on and play hard, as they did the year before when we went to game 7 of the NBA Finals after everyone wrote us off and booed the celtics off the floor in midseason for sucking badly against poor teams. Bradley had nothing at all to do with our success that year.

Wait a second - you just completely contradicted yourself.  First you say "Bradley helped for sure", and then you followed that with "Bradley had nothing at all to do with our success that year". 

Either way this entire quote is just plain garbage. Firstly most of our Celtics teams since 2008 actually started seasons strong:

* 2008 - strong start, won title
* 2009 - strong start, then lost KG to injury & defeated by Orlando in ECF
* 2010 - strong start, then lost Perk & defeated by Lakers in Finals
* 2011 - strong start, then lost Shaq due to injury, lost Perk in trade, defeated by Miami in ECSF

In 2012 we had a poor start.  We lost Ray, Jermaine and Wilcox to early health issues and after the All-Star break we had pretty much no choice but to start Avery at SG, start Bass at PF and moved KG over to center as a temporary fix to all of our injury issues.  From this moment on our team almost instantly transformed from mediocre to one of the most dominant teams in the NBA.

Our offense sucked royally - we couldn't score to save our lives.  We couldn't rebound to save our lives.  We were at or near the bottom of the league in both categories.  We were still an elite team after the break because of our defense. 

I will not by any means say that this improvement was ALL on Avery Bradley.  KG's move to center seemed to revitalise him, and Bass found a niche' starting for us at PF.  A LOT of our improvement however came from the impact Avery Bradley had on defense.

From the very first game AB started he immediately made an impact on the defensive end of the floor.  He struggled offensively at the start (with his shooting, ball handling and decision making) but his defense was so good from the get-go that it keept him in the starting lineup, and it kept us winning games.  Initially this was a temporary solution until Ray Allen returned, but once he started to gain confidence his offensive game improved dramatically and at this point his overall impact on the team became so significant that Ray never got his starting job back.     

Look at his numbers.  Look at the our performance with him on vs off the court.  Look at the Net efficiency of our starting lineup with Bradley at SG and compare that to the efficiency of the same lineup with Ray Allen at SG.

You say he had no impact on the playoffs because he was out.  Really? Let me quote a few passages for you.

Quote #1:

Quote
With Avery Bradley on the floor last season the Boston Celtics defensive rating 92.9, the team’s best mark among their regular contributors.  Additionally, Boston also fared worse defensively when Bradley was on the bench more than any other player, registering a defensive rating of 97.5.

Quote #2:

Quote
Beginning with a March 25th win in Philadelphia that saw Bradley play a career-high 40 minutes, the Celtics registered an incredible defensive rating of 92.1 over the final 19 games of the season.  Not coincidentally, Bradley played 25 or more minutes in all of them and Boston went 14-5, storming back from a disappointing 26-22 record to win the Atlantic Division.

Quote #3:

Quote
in the 10 playoff games Bradley took part in before injuring his shoulder, he took things to a whole ‘nother level.  His on-court defensive rating in the postseason? A team-low 87.9.  Boston’s defensive rating when their dynamo defender was on the bench? 100.4, second higher on the team behind Kevin Garnett’s mind-boggling number of 116.5.  Opponents shot a team-low (among regular) 38.2% when Bradley was on the floor, compared to 44.3% when he was riding the pine.  Again, only Garnett’s trumps Bradley’s latter number, truly indicative of KG’s absurd worth to Boston’s playoff success.  But aside from him, the statistics show that no player had as much of a positive impact in the postseason for the Celtics as Bradley.

The intersting part?

Last year our pace was 90.6, last in the league.  This year it's 94.6 which is 19th in the league, so we are playing at a significantly faster pace.  Faster pace means more, possessions and more possessions means more points scored by both teams - keep that in mind. 

When Bradley was our starting SG in the playoffs our defensive rating was 87.9 when he was on the court.  Our defensive rating was 100.4 when he was NOT the court.

This year our defensive rating as a team (without Bradley) is 103.9, and the 4 other starters are the same.  If you consider the faster pace we play at, that's roughly equivalent to what we were allowing in the playoffs last season without Bradley on the court. 

Now this number isn't foolproof because it also factors in our entire team (rather than just the starting linup), but it's something to think about when you consider that our starting linup is playing roughly 70% of our total minutes. 

When AB is back in the roster and back in shape (say 10 games in) it's very possible (actually probable) that our Def Rating will drop by about 12 points per 100 possession when he is on the court.  Our overall team's defensive rating could very easily drop from about 7 points, down from from 103.9 to about 96.9, which would rank us as the second best defense in the NBA behind Atlanta (95.6).

Looking at AB's general statistics, there is no evidence at all to suggest a change like that not possible - in fact it's highly likely.

Take look at guys like Paul Pierce, Ray Allen, Kevin Garnett.  Even the greatest shooters have nights when they are hot, and nights when they are cold.  Look at rebounds - even if you get great position, sometimes the ball just doesn't bounce your way.  Defense is the one single aspect of the game that you ALWAYS have control over.  This is why an elite defensive player can impact a game more then even the most insanely good offensive player over an 82 game season.  This is why KG still has more impact on us as a team than Rondo does.  This is why AB is a MASSIVELY critical piece for this team, and why his extra minutes on the court were a huge contributer to the Celtic's improvement after the All-star break last year.
Title: Re: Bradley or Sully: Who do you trade?
Post by: LooseCannon on November 27, 2012, 11:46:30 PM
I absolutely love Bradley, but I don't see a multiple all-star appearance ceiling from Bradley, which is what I think it would take to have a higher ceiling than Sullinger.

I like the Joe Dumars comparison as an idea of Bradley's ceiling.  Joe D was a six-time NBA All-Star.
Title: Re: Bradley or Sully: Who do you trade?
Post by: BballTim on November 27, 2012, 11:49:31 PM

How are you gonna say false and then say a false claim yourself. I can't take you seriously anymore. We didn't make a playoff run without him. We were under 500 and in danger of missing the playoffs and blowing the whole team up if we didn't turn things around when we did.


  There were a lot of things that led to our turnaround. PP and KG getting into shape, Bradley and Bass replacing Ray and JO, and Doc giving Rondo more control of the offense (and Rondo going on the assist streak). You can't point to any one thing as the reason.

 I give a lot of credit to Bass and Bradley going into the starting lineup but that doesn't make them more than our 4th and 5th most important players. The team with Rondo/Ray/PP/KG/JO was way too old and unathletic to compete, putting in a couple of players like Bradley and Bass brought about a much better mix of players.

Never once claimed bradley was the sole reason. He was certainly one of the biggest tho along with KG.

  I don't disagree, but Bradley's contribution was as much keeping Ray off the court as what Avery actually did when he played.
Title: Re: Bradley or Sully: Who do you trade?
Post by: indeedproceed on November 28, 2012, 12:14:53 AM

How are you gonna say false and then say a false claim yourself. I can't take you seriously anymore. We didn't make a playoff run without him. We were under 500 and in danger of missing the playoffs and blowing the whole team up if we didn't turn things around when we did.


  There were a lot of things that led to our turnaround. PP and KG getting into shape, Bradley and Bass replacing Ray and JO, and Doc giving Rondo more control of the offense (and Rondo going on the assist streak). You can't point to any one thing as the reason.

 I give a lot of credit to Bass and Bradley going into the starting lineup but that doesn't make them more than our 4th and 5th most important players. The team with Rondo/Ray/PP/KG/JO was way too old and unathletic to compete, putting in a couple of players like Bradley and Bass brought about a much better mix of players.

Never once claimed bradley was the sole reason. He was certainly one of the biggest tho along with KG.

  I don't disagree, but Bradley's contribution was as much keeping Ray off the court as what Avery actually did when he played.

I think putting Ray off the floor as equal contribution sells both Ray and Bradley considerably short. It implies that another person, almost any other capable person (say Pietrus) could've done half as much. I don't think that to be the case.
Title: Re: Bradley or Sully: Who do you trade?
Post by: crimson_stallion on November 28, 2012, 01:07:03 AM
I absolutely love Bradley, but I don't see a multiple all-star appearance ceiling from Bradley, which is what I think it would take to have a higher ceiling than Sullinger.

I like the Joe Dumars comparison as an idea of Bradley's ceiling.  Joe D was a six-time NBA All-Star.

Agreed. 

Plus I don't see Sullinger getting multiple all star appearances.  Honestly, I don't think he'll ever be quite All-Star level.

Look at Carlos Boozer, Zach Randolf - how many All Star appearances?  How about Tyson Chandler?    Monta Ellis?  Latrell Sprewell?  Al Jefferson?  Al Harrington? Joakim Noah?

There have been a lot of very good players who have rarely (if ever) made the All Star game.  I don't see Sullinger getting much better than any of those guys mentioned above.  That said, I wouldn't complain about having any one of those guys on my ream in their prime.

I think sully has little chance if making it because he is a very good all rounder, but isn't elite at any one thing.

I think Bradley has a better shot because he has an elite talent in his defense.  If he ever becomes a consistently solid offensive player combined with his defense and athleticism he could very easily have All-Star potential.  He reminds me of small guard version of Iggy, who has been a borderline All-Star for years on end.
Title: Re: Bradley or Sully: Who do you trade?
Post by: BudweiserCeltic on November 28, 2012, 01:44:46 AM

How are you gonna say false and then say a false claim yourself. I can't take you seriously anymore. We didn't make a playoff run without him. We were under 500 and in danger of missing the playoffs and blowing the whole team up if we didn't turn things around when we did.


  There were a lot of things that led to our turnaround. PP and KG getting into shape, Bradley and Bass replacing Ray and JO, and Doc giving Rondo more control of the offense (and Rondo going on the assist streak). You can't point to any one thing as the reason.

 I give a lot of credit to Bass and Bradley going into the starting lineup but that doesn't make them more than our 4th and 5th most important players. The team with Rondo/Ray/PP/KG/JO was way too old and unathletic to compete, putting in a couple of players like Bradley and Bass brought about a much better mix of players.

Never once claimed bradley was the sole reason. He was certainly one of the biggest tho along with KG.

  I don't disagree, but Bradley's contribution was as much keeping Ray off the court as what Avery actually did when he played.

I think putting Ray off the floor as equal contribution sells both Ray and Bradley considerably short. It implies that another person, almost any other capable person (say Pietrus) could've done half as much. I don't think that to be the case.

And ignores that Ray had a very good start to the season until he got injured. If everyone had come ready to play as Ray had, we wouldn't have struggled to begin the season in the first place.

Rondo started well too, but then regressed until the all-star break or so where he become more aggressive and ran the team at a much better pace, which coincided with KG and Pierce doing their job and Bradley becoming a very big contributor to this team.

And this giving more control to Rondo is pure crap in my opinion, Rondo has had pretty much full control of our offense for quite a while now. He's simply been inconsistent on some facets of running the team.
Title: Re: Bradley or Sully: Who do you trade?
Post by: xmuscularghandix on November 28, 2012, 01:59:36 AM
(http://www.bostonglobe.com/rf/image_r/Boston/2011-2020/2012/05/22/BostonGlobe.com/Sports/Images/1650673716001.r.jpg)
Title: Re: Bradley or Sully: Who do you trade?
Post by: BballTim on November 28, 2012, 06:03:59 AM

How are you gonna say false and then say a false claim yourself. I can't take you seriously anymore. We didn't make a playoff run without him. We were under 500 and in danger of missing the playoffs and blowing the whole team up if we didn't turn things around when we did.


  There were a lot of things that led to our turnaround. PP and KG getting into shape, Bradley and Bass replacing Ray and JO, and Doc giving Rondo more control of the offense (and Rondo going on the assist streak). You can't point to any one thing as the reason.

 I give a lot of credit to Bass and Bradley going into the starting lineup but that doesn't make them more than our 4th and 5th most important players. The team with Rondo/Ray/PP/KG/JO was way too old and unathletic to compete, putting in a couple of players like Bradley and Bass brought about a much better mix of players.

Never once claimed bradley was the sole reason. He was certainly one of the biggest tho along with KG.

  I don't disagree, but Bradley's contribution was as much keeping Ray off the court as what Avery actually did when he played.

I think putting Ray off the floor as equal contribution sells both Ray and Bradley considerably short. It implies that another person, almost any other capable person (say Pietrus) could've done half as much. I don't think that to be the case.

And ignores that Ray had a very good start to the season until he got injured. If everyone had come ready to play as Ray had, we wouldn't have struggled to begin the season in the first place.


  Ray wasn't playing well when he was taken out of the lineup. The fact that his season got off to a fairly good start isn't really the point, it's the Ray struggling with injuries that Bradley replaced.
Title: Re: Bradley or Sully: Who do you trade?
Post by: Rickretro on November 28, 2012, 06:46:22 AM
Sullinger. 
Title: Re: Bradley or Sully: Who do you trade?
Post by: mctyson on November 28, 2012, 07:23:03 AM
This is an illogical question without knowing whom/what you are trading for.

If you are asking how Celticsblog feels about the "trade value" of said players, I think it is obvious that Bradley probably has more trade value.  Sullinger wouldn't be that far behind though.
Title: Re: Bradley or Sully: Who do you trade?
Post by: action781 on November 28, 2012, 08:28:59 AM
I absolutely love Bradley, but I don't see a multiple all-star appearance ceiling from Bradley, which is what I think it would take to have a higher ceiling than Sullinger.

I like the Joe Dumars comparison as an idea of Bradley's ceiling.  Joe D was a six-time NBA All-Star.

I've heard that thrown around and Dumars was slightly before my day, so I didn't see him play much.  But I don't see Avery ever being a 23.5ppg scorer in the NBA, so I'd have to disagree.  I don't even see him ever being a 20ppg scorer (even in a more guard-friendly NBA now) unless its on a horrible team.  Dumars scored 20+ ppg 3 times in his career and it was on a contending team.  So I'd say Bradley's ceiling is lower than that, but again, I didn't really see Dumars play.
Title: Re: Bradley or Sully: Who do you trade?
Post by: jdz101 on November 28, 2012, 08:31:42 AM
I would do my best not to trade either of them.

They are both good players. You don't trade good players on cheap money unless you get a cracking deal in return. EG: kevin garnett trade.
Title: Re: Bradley or Sully: Who do you trade?
Post by: hpantazo on November 28, 2012, 08:34:15 AM
Yep, you just ignored all the points I made about these celtics teams not giving a full effort for large parts of the regular season the last few years. Bradley helped for sure, but he in no way turned our season around, KG, Paul, Rondo, and Ray finally decided to turn the switch on and play hard, as they did the year before when we went to game 7 of the NBA Finals after everyone wrote us off and booed the celtics off the floor in midseason for sucking badly against poor teams. Bradley had nothing at all to do with our success that year.

Wait a second - you just completely contradicted yourself.  First you say "Bradley helped for sure", and then you followed that with "Bradley had nothing at all to do with our success that year". 

Either way this entire quote is just plain garbage. Firstly most of our Celtics teams since 2008 actually started seasons strong:

* 2008 - strong start, won title
* 2009 - strong start, then lost KG to injury & defeated by Orlando in ECF
* 2010 - strong start, then lost Perk & defeated by Lakers in Finals
* 2011 - strong start, then lost Shaq due to injury, lost Perk in trade, defeated by Miami in ECSF

In 2012 we had a poor start.  We lost Ray, Jermaine and Wilcox to early health issues and after the All-Star break we had pretty much no choice but to start Avery at SG, start Bass at PF and moved KG over to center as a temporary fix to all of our injury issues.  From this moment on our team almost instantly transformed from mediocre to one of the most dominant teams in the NBA.

Our offense sucked royally - we couldn't score to save our lives.  We couldn't rebound to save our lives.  We were at or near the bottom of the league in both categories.  We were still an elite team after the break because of our defense. 

I will not by any means say that this improvement was ALL on Avery Bradley.  KG's move to center seemed to revitalise him, and Bass found a niche' starting for us at PF.  A LOT of our improvement however came from the impact Avery Bradley had on defense.

From the very first game AB started he immediately made an impact on the defensive end of the floor.  He struggled offensively at the start (with his shooting, ball handling and decision making) but his defense was so good from the get-go that it keept him in the starting lineup, and it kept us winning games.  Initially this was a temporary solution until Ray Allen returned, but once he started to gain confidence his offensive game improved dramatically and at this point his overall impact on the team became so significant that Ray never got his starting job back.     

Look at his numbers.  Look at the our performance with him on vs off the court.  Look at the Net efficiency of our starting lineup with Bradley at SG and compare that to the efficiency of the same lineup with Ray Allen at SG.

You say he had no impact on the playoffs because he was out.  Really? Let me quote a few passages for you.

Quote #1:

Quote
With Avery Bradley on the floor last season the Boston Celtics defensive rating 92.9, the team’s best mark among their regular contributors.  Additionally, Boston also fared worse defensively when Bradley was on the bench more than any other player, registering a defensive rating of 97.5.

Quote #2:

Quote
Beginning with a March 25th win in Philadelphia that saw Bradley play a career-high 40 minutes, the Celtics registered an incredible defensive rating of 92.1 over the final 19 games of the season.  Not coincidentally, Bradley played 25 or more minutes in all of them and Boston went 14-5, storming back from a disappointing 26-22 record to win the Atlantic Division.

Quote #3:

Quote
in the 10 playoff games Bradley took part in before injuring his shoulder, he took things to a whole ‘nother level.  His on-court defensive rating in the postseason? A team-low 87.9.  Boston’s defensive rating when their dynamo defender was on the bench? 100.4, second higher on the team behind Kevin Garnett’s mind-boggling number of 116.5.  Opponents shot a team-low (among regular) 38.2% when Bradley was on the floor, compared to 44.3% when he was riding the pine.  Again, only Garnett’s trumps Bradley’s latter number, truly indicative of KG’s absurd worth to Boston’s playoff success.  But aside from him, the statistics show that no player had as much of a positive impact in the postseason for the Celtics as Bradley.

The intersting part?

Last year our pace was 90.6, last in the league.  This year it's 94.6 which is 19th in the league, so we are playing at a significantly faster pace.  Faster pace means more, possessions and more possessions means more points scored by both teams - keep that in mind. 

When Bradley was our starting SG in the playoffs our defensive rating was 87.9 when he was on the court.  Our defensive rating was 100.4 when he was NOT the court.

This year our defensive rating as a team (without Bradley) is 103.9, and the 4 other starters are the same.  If you consider the faster pace we play at, that's roughly equivalent to what we were allowing in the playoffs last season without Bradley on the court. 

Now this number isn't foolproof because it also factors in our entire team (rather than just the starting linup), but it's something to think about when you consider that our starting linup is playing roughly 70% of our total minutes. 

When AB is back in the roster and back in shape (say 10 games in) it's very possible (actually probable) that our Def Rating will drop by about 12 points per 100 possession when he is on the court.  Our overall team's defensive rating could very easily drop from about 7 points, down from from 103.9 to about 96.9, which would rank us as the second best defense in the NBA behind Atlanta (95.6).

Looking at AB's general statistics, there is no evidence at all to suggest a change like that not possible - in fact it's highly likely.

Take look at guys like Paul Pierce, Ray Allen, Kevin Garnett.  Even the greatest shooters have nights when they are hot, and nights when they are cold.  Look at rebounds - even if you get great position, sometimes the ball just doesn't bounce your way.  Defense is the one single aspect of the game that you ALWAYS have control over.  This is why an elite defensive player can impact a game more then even the most insanely good offensive player over an 82 game season.  This is why KG still has more impact on us as a team than Rondo does.  This is why AB is a MASSIVELY critical piece for this team, and why his extra minutes on the court were a huge contributer to the Celtic's improvement after the All-star break last year.

Once again, the points I made were completely ingnored for more Bradley propaganda. Oh well. The rest of the team actually getting in shape, healthy, and giving 100 pecent is the biggest reason for our turnaround last year, AND, for our turnaround the year before when Bradley never played, but you conveniently ignore that part.
Title: Re: Bradley or Sully: Who do you trade?
Post by: Fafnir on November 28, 2012, 09:00:26 AM
Yep, you just ignored all the points I made about these celtics teams not giving a full effort for large parts of the regular season the last few years. Bradley helped for sure, but he in no way turned our season around, KG, Paul, Rondo, and Ray finally decided to turn the switch on and play hard, as they did the year before when we went to game 7 of the NBA Finals after everyone wrote us off and booed the celtics off the floor in midseason for sucking badly against poor teams. Bradley had nothing at all to do with our success that year.

Wait a second - you just completely contradicted yourself.  First you say "Bradley helped for sure", and then you followed that with "Bradley had nothing at all to do with our success that year". 

Either way this entire quote is just plain garbage. Firstly most of our Celtics teams since 2008 actually started seasons strong:

* 2008 - strong start, won title
* 2009 - strong start, then lost KG to injury & defeated by Orlando in ECF
* 2010 - strong start, then lost Perk & defeated by Lakers in Finals
* 2011 - strong start, then lost Shaq due to injury, lost Perk in trade, defeated by Miami in ECSF

In 2012 we had a poor start.  We lost Ray, Jermaine and Wilcox to early health issues and after the All-Star break we had pretty much no choice but to start Avery at SG, start Bass at PF and moved KG over to center as a temporary fix to all of our injury issues.  From this moment on our team almost instantly transformed from mediocre to one of the most dominant teams in the NBA.

Our offense sucked royally - we couldn't score to save our lives.  We couldn't rebound to save our lives.  We were at or near the bottom of the league in both categories.  We were still an elite team after the break because of our defense. 

I will not by any means say that this improvement was ALL on Avery Bradley.  KG's move to center seemed to revitalise him, and Bass found a niche' starting for us at PF.  A LOT of our improvement however came from the impact Avery Bradley had on defense.

From the very first game AB started he immediately made an impact on the defensive end of the floor.  He struggled offensively at the start (with his shooting, ball handling and decision making) but his defense was so good from the get-go that it keept him in the starting lineup, and it kept us winning games.  Initially this was a temporary solution until Ray Allen returned, but once he started to gain confidence his offensive game improved dramatically and at this point his overall impact on the team became so significant that Ray never got his starting job back.     

Look at his numbers.  Look at the our performance with him on vs off the court.  Look at the Net efficiency of our starting lineup with Bradley at SG and compare that to the efficiency of the same lineup with Ray Allen at SG.

You say he had no impact on the playoffs because he was out.  Really? Let me quote a few passages for you.

Quote #1:

Quote
With Avery Bradley on the floor last season the Boston Celtics defensive rating 92.9, the team’s best mark among their regular contributors.  Additionally, Boston also fared worse defensively when Bradley was on the bench more than any other player, registering a defensive rating of 97.5.

Quote #2:

Quote
Beginning with a March 25th win in Philadelphia that saw Bradley play a career-high 40 minutes, the Celtics registered an incredible defensive rating of 92.1 over the final 19 games of the season.  Not coincidentally, Bradley played 25 or more minutes in all of them and Boston went 14-5, storming back from a disappointing 26-22 record to win the Atlantic Division.

Quote #3:

Quote
in the 10 playoff games Bradley took part in before injuring his shoulder, he took things to a whole ‘nother level.  His on-court defensive rating in the postseason? A team-low 87.9.  Boston’s defensive rating when their dynamo defender was on the bench? 100.4, second higher on the team behind Kevin Garnett’s mind-boggling number of 116.5.  Opponents shot a team-low (among regular) 38.2% when Bradley was on the floor, compared to 44.3% when he was riding the pine.  Again, only Garnett’s trumps Bradley’s latter number, truly indicative of KG’s absurd worth to Boston’s playoff success.  But aside from him, the statistics show that no player had as much of a positive impact in the postseason for the Celtics as Bradley.

The intersting part?

Last year our pace was 90.6, last in the league.  This year it's 94.6 which is 19th in the league, so we are playing at a significantly faster pace.  Faster pace means more, possessions and more possessions means more points scored by both teams - keep that in mind. 

When Bradley was our starting SG in the playoffs our defensive rating was 87.9 when he was on the court.  Our defensive rating was 100.4 when he was NOT the court.

This year our defensive rating as a team (without Bradley) is 103.9, and the 4 other starters are the same.  If you consider the faster pace we play at, that's roughly equivalent to what we were allowing in the playoffs last season without Bradley on the court. 

Now this number isn't foolproof because it also factors in our entire team (rather than just the starting linup), but it's something to think about when you consider that our starting linup is playing roughly 70% of our total minutes. 

When AB is back in the roster and back in shape (say 10 games in) it's very possible (actually probable) that our Def Rating will drop by about 12 points per 100 possession when he is on the court.  Our overall team's defensive rating could very easily drop from about 7 points, down from from 103.9 to about 96.9, which would rank us as the second best defense in the NBA behind Atlanta (95.6).

Looking at AB's general statistics, there is no evidence at all to suggest a change like that not possible - in fact it's highly likely.

Take look at guys like Paul Pierce, Ray Allen, Kevin Garnett.  Even the greatest shooters have nights when they are hot, and nights when they are cold.  Look at rebounds - even if you get great position, sometimes the ball just doesn't bounce your way.  Defense is the one single aspect of the game that you ALWAYS have control over.  This is why an elite defensive player can impact a game more then even the most insanely good offensive player over an 82 game season.  This is why KG still has more impact on us as a team than Rondo does.  This is why AB is a MASSIVELY critical piece for this team, and why his extra minutes on the court were a huge contributer to the Celtic's improvement after the All-star break last year.

Once again, the points I made were completely ingnored for more Bradley propaganda. Oh well. The rest of the team actually getting in shape, healthy, and giving 100 pecent is the biggest reason for our turnaround last year, AND, for our turnaround the year before when Bradley never played, but you conveniently ignore that part.
Well given that you're characterizing his opinions as "propoganda" to just repeat what you said, perhaps you both can just happily ignore each other.

Also once again Bradley didn't miss our playoff run, in fact in the playoffs we played our best ball as a team when he was able to stay on the court.
Title: Re: Bradley or Sully: Who do you trade?
Post by: wdleehi on November 28, 2012, 09:27:07 AM
The wrong question keeps getting asked.



It is not how good could these two be and/or are.




It is "does the trade make the team better now and give them a better chance to get past the Heat?"


If the answer is "NO", don't make the move.

If the answer is "YES", make the move.
Title: Re: Bradley or Sully: Who do you trade?
Post by: Chris on November 28, 2012, 09:35:57 AM
The wrong question keeps getting asked.



It is not how good could these two be and/or are.




It is "does the trade make the team better now and give them a better chance to get past the Heat?"


If the answer is "NO", don't make the move.

If the answer is "YES", make the move.

I think this is the first question.  If the answer is Yes, I think you make the move.  If the answer is no, then you need to go on to question 2.

"Does this move give the team a better chance to remain competitive in the long-term?"

If the answer for that is Yes, then you still make the move IMO.

I think there could be moves that might not put this team over the top this year, but give us a building block perhaps better than the young guy we are trading.  I don't think its likely, because I think both of those guys values are not nearly as high as others think...but you never know if a GM would fall in love with one of them.
Title: Re: Bradley or Sully: Who do you trade?
Post by: Fafnir on November 28, 2012, 09:41:44 AM
Yeah I think Bradley's value is too high for Boston for this season compared to what other team's think of him.

Sullinger I can see moved more easily, but even then I'm not sure. A guy like him who can play right now but whose long term future is somewhat shaky, reminds me of Blair. It seems to me those guys have the most value for a win now team who needs cheap production out of young players.
Title: Re: Bradley or Sully: Who do you trade?
Post by: wdleehi on November 28, 2012, 09:47:01 AM
The wrong question keeps getting asked.



It is not how good could these two be and/or are.




It is "does the trade make the team better now and give them a better chance to get past the Heat?"


If the answer is "NO", don't make the move.

If the answer is "YES", make the move.

I think this is the first question.  If the answer is Yes, I think you make the move.  If the answer is no, then you need to go on to question 2.

"Does this move give the team a better chance to remain competitive in the long-term?"

If the answer for that is Yes, then you still make the move IMO.

I think there could be moves that might not put this team over the top this year, but give us a building block perhaps better than the young guy we are trading.  I don't think its likely, because I think both of those guys values are not nearly as high as others think...but you never know if a GM would fall in love with one of them.


Very true.
Title: Re: Bradley or Sully: Who do you trade?
Post by: Chris on November 28, 2012, 09:55:01 AM
Sullinger I can see moved more easily, but even then I'm not sure. A guy like him who can play right now but whose long term future is somewhat shaky, reminds me of Blair. It seems to me those guys have the most value for a win now team who needs cheap production out of young players.

I agree to a point.  For Sully, I really think its too early to tell though.  It just seems like he is just starting to settle in over the last few games.  I think there is a chance he could really explode over the next two months, particularly if he gets to play more next to KG, who is the perfect compliment to him.  And if thats the case, his value could skyrocket above what it should be.  But right now, I think he is still seen as a dime a dozen bruiser.
Title: Re: Bradley or Sully: Who do you trade?
Post by: SHAQATTACK on November 28, 2012, 11:58:33 AM
Sully is a gold nugget , I just don't see Danny trading his young fellow off. He is YEARS ahead of most college stars like JJJ .  JJJ may NEVER become the player Sully is now.

Kids head is screwed on straight and thats hard to come by in these days of spoiled divas.  He is mature beyound his years in more than basketball. Both guys have work ethics that are uncommon for their ages.

I look for AB and Sully to be a part of this team a long time. It would have to be a very special player for Danny to trade the Celtics future off.

Frankly the future looks good with Rondo, Melo and Joseph.

 
   

Title: Re: Bradley or Sully: Who do you trade?
Post by: BudweiserCeltic on November 28, 2012, 12:23:15 PM

How are you gonna say false and then say a false claim yourself. I can't take you seriously anymore. We didn't make a playoff run without him. We were under 500 and in danger of missing the playoffs and blowing the whole team up if we didn't turn things around when we did.


  There were a lot of things that led to our turnaround. PP and KG getting into shape, Bradley and Bass replacing Ray and JO, and Doc giving Rondo more control of the offense (and Rondo going on the assist streak). You can't point to any one thing as the reason.

 I give a lot of credit to Bass and Bradley going into the starting lineup but that doesn't make them more than our 4th and 5th most important players. The team with Rondo/Ray/PP/KG/JO was way too old and unathletic to compete, putting in a couple of players like Bradley and Bass brought about a much better mix of players.

Never once claimed bradley was the sole reason. He was certainly one of the biggest tho along with KG.

  I don't disagree, but Bradley's contribution was as much keeping Ray off the court as what Avery actually did when he played.

I think putting Ray off the floor as equal contribution sells both Ray and Bradley considerably short. It implies that another person, almost any other capable person (say Pietrus) could've done half as much. I don't think that to be the case.

And ignores that Ray had a very good start to the season until he got injured. If everyone had come ready to play as Ray had, we wouldn't have struggled to begin the season in the first place.


  Ray wasn't playing well when he was taken out of the lineup. The fact that his season got off to a fairly good start isn't really the point, it's the Ray struggling with injuries that Bradley replaced.

And? The point was that it wasn't much of a roster change that gave us the improvement last year, but people just starting to play as they should've been in the first place.

The Bradley emergence to me is the only thing noteworthy on that regard, not the subtraction of Ray Allen. In the first half of the season we weren't losing because of Ray Allen injuries. He played very well last season until somewhere in February, and his stats still looked quite good regardless that month.
Title: Re: Bradley or Sully: Who do you trade?
Post by: snively on November 28, 2012, 03:18:21 PM
Sullinger - not so much because I rank Bradley much higher than Sully long-term, but because Bradley is much more important to our immediate team.  Sully's a very strong prospect (his combination of range, rebounding, skill and intelligence is quite impressive) who can't be depended on as more than a 20-25mpg spot starter at this point of his career.  In contrast, Bradley has already proven to be a potent member of a dominant foursome with Rondo/Pierce/KG.

I have a feeling Ainge and Doc aren't too eager to trade either.  They may want see what they have with a Rondo/Bradley/Pierce/Sully/KG quintet
Title: Re: Bradley or Sully: Who do you trade?
Post by: OsirusCeltics on November 28, 2012, 05:38:57 PM
(http://www.bostonglobe.com/rf/image_r/Boston/2011-2020/2012/05/22/BostonGlobe.com/Sports/Images/1650673716001.r.jpg)

Finally, someone understands!!!
Title: Re: Bradley or Sully: Who do you trade?
Post by: Lightskinsmurf on November 28, 2012, 06:02:06 PM
Everybody on this team seems like they really love being on this team. Id hate to trade anyone unless it makes us CLEARLY a better team. I'm willing to roll the dice with the team we have now. We still have one roster spot open to sign one more player. KMART/Birdman?
Title: Re: Bradley or Sully: Who do you trade?
Post by: dtrader on November 28, 2012, 06:59:37 PM
I don't think the Joe dumats comparison makes sense.  Joe may have been the same height, but he was bigger and stronger than Ab.  Plus, dumars was a great passer. AB is a bad passer.  Dumars was a floor general who could run an offense. AB can't run an offense. Dumars was also a better ball handler.  That's all above and beyond the fact that dumars was known for his clutch shooting, which AB clearly isn't.

Saying he's like a smaller iguodala doesn't work for me, because iguodala is special because he can pass well, run an offense, has great rebounding, and can guard multiple positions (pg to sf at. Least).  AB lacks all of that AND lacks iggys size.


I absolutely love Bradley, but I don't see a multiple all-star appearance ceiling from Bradley, which is what I think it would take to have a higher ceiling than Sullinger.

I like the Joe Dumars comparison as an idea of Bradley's ceiling.  Joe D was a six-time NBA All-Star.

Agreed. 

Plus I don't see Sullinger getting multiple all star appearances.  Honestly, I don't think he'll ever be quite All-Star level.

Look at Carlos Boozer, Zach Randolf - how many All Star appearances?  How about Tyson Chandler?    Monta Ellis?  Latrell Sprewell?  Al Jefferson?  Al Harrington? Joakim Noah?

There have been a lot of very good players who have rarely (if ever) made the All Star game.  I don't see Sullinger getting much better than any of those guys mentioned above.  That said, I wouldn't complain about having any one of those guys on my ream in their prime.

I think sully has little chance if making it because he is a very good all rounder, but isn't elite at any one thing.

I think Bradley has a better shot because he has an elite talent in his defense.  If he ever becomes a consistently solid offensive player combined with his defense and athleticism he could very easily have All-Star potential.  He reminds me of small guard version of Iggy, who has been a borderline All-Star for years on end.
Title: Re: Bradley or Sully: Who do you trade?
Post by: action781 on November 28, 2012, 09:39:51 PM
I absolutely love Bradley, but I don't see a multiple all-star appearance ceiling from Bradley, which is what I think it would take to have a higher ceiling than Sullinger.

I like the Joe Dumars comparison as an idea of Bradley's ceiling.  Joe D was a six-time NBA All-Star.

Agreed. 

Plus I don't see Sullinger getting multiple all star appearances.  Honestly, I don't think he'll ever be quite All-Star level.

Look at Carlos Boozer, Zach Randolf - how many All Star appearances?  How about Tyson Chandler?    Monta Ellis?  Latrell Sprewell?  Al Jefferson?  Al Harrington? Joakim Noah?

There have been a lot of very good players who have rarely (if ever) made the All Star game.  I don't see Sullinger getting much better than any of those guys mentioned above.  That said, I wouldn't complain about having any one of those guys on my ream in their prime.

I think sully has little chance if making it because he is a very good all rounder, but isn't elite at any one thing.

I think Bradley has a better shot because he has an elite talent in his defense.  If he ever becomes a consistently solid offensive player combined with his defense and athleticism he could very easily have All-Star potential.  He reminds me of small guard version of Iggy, who has been a borderline All-Star for years on end.

Elite talent in perimeter defense doesn't get you an all-star appearance.  Bruce bowen - 5x all first defensive team, 0x all-star.  Raja Bell and Tony Allen also come to mind as a couple of the best perimeter defenders we've seen in the last decade, both not even close to any all-star appearances.