CelticsStrong
Celtics Basketball => Celtics Talk => Topic started by: ScoobyDoo on November 26, 2012, 04:01:34 PM
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I read the Fab article on the main page today and saw the phrases "athletically gifted" and "crazy athleticism" used to describe him.
I watched him in summer league and while I thought he was a "decent" athlete for a seven footer, I also thought he looked like a typical seven footer, that is, a little slow, awkward and cumbersome at times.
When I think of athletically gifted 7 footers names like David Robinson, Kevin Garnett, Dwight Howard and DeAndre Jordan type guys (athleticism only, not talent...) come to mind.
Do you guys look at Melo and think "athletically gifted"?
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fab is huge and is very quick and nimble. So yes, a great athlete.
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I wouldn't say Melo is a great athlete. I think he is very long, and very mobile for a big man, but he has never been a real explosive athlete.
Of course, his athleticism is not the problem. He is plenty athletic enough to be an excellent NBA big man. The question is whether he understands how to play the game.
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Javale McGee= athlete
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Well, firstly people strike too hard at him. He has been playing basketball since like 15? He doesn't even have a 10 year experience like most kids in the US.. He has a soccer background and a result of that is his good court awareness and vision.. He is athletic and has significant size but like many people said: the talent is there, he just needs to learn the fundamentals and he's good to go.
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Yeah, Ok. That's how I see it pretty much. I mean, he is big and fairly long, but he just doesn't strike me as this run/jump uber athlete.
But as you said lightspeed5, "quick" and "nimble" are viable athletic traits as well. Pierce isn't a jaw dropping athlete, but he is certainly a great athlete in terms of strength, footwork and deceptive quickness on the drive.
Likewise, Bird wasn't a "run/jump" athlete, but he certainly was a great athlete in terms of strength, deception and hand/foot speed, court vision.
I guess if Melo figures it out, he could be something special then - or at least he has the physical tools to be...
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Still, I find the terms "athletically gifted" and "crazy athleticism" odd ones when applied to him.
Maybe that will become more apparent when he "gets it" and that athleticism will therefore then become more glaringly apparent.
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Still, I find the terms "athletically gifted" and "crazy athleticism" odd ones when applied to him.
Maybe that will become more apparent when he "gets it" and that athleticism will therefore then become more glaringly apparent.
Yeah, exactly.
I would describe him as "long" and "mobile". Leave athletically gifted for the human pogosticks.
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Still, I find the terms "athletically gifted" and "crazy athleticism" odd ones when applied to him.
Maybe that will become more apparent when he "gets it" and that athleticism will therefore then become more glaringly apparent.
Yeah, exactly.
I would describe him as "long" and "mobile". Leave athletically gifted for the human pogosticks.
Pretty much.
Bears out in Melo's measureables too, compared to Joakim Noah he's roughly as agile/fast as Noah while being much longer. His vertical measured both ways is several inches less.
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Well, firstly people strike too hard at him. He has been playing basketball since like 15? He doesn't even have a 10 year experience like most kids in the US.. He has a soccer background and a result of that is his good court awareness and vision.. He is athletic and has significant size but like many people said: the talent is there, he just needs to learn the fundamentals and he's good to go.
Exactly. Well said.
He's Hasheem Thabeet of Celtics roster.
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Still, I find the terms "athletically gifted" and "crazy athleticism" odd ones when applied to him.
Maybe that will become more apparent when he "gets it" and that athleticism will therefore then become more glaringly apparent.
Yeah, exactly.
I would describe him as "long" and "mobile". Leave athletically gifted for the human pogosticks.
Pretty much.
Bears out in Melo's measureables too, compared to Joakim Noah he's roughly as agile/fast as Noah while being much longer. His vertical measured both ways is several inches less.
And I wouldn't even call Noah a spectacular athlete. I think Noah is also more of a "mobile" big man.
I leave the great athlete modiker for guys like Howard, McGee, Chris Anderson, the kid Detroit drafted (I am drawing a blank on his name) and guys like that.
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Still, I find the terms "athletically gifted" and "crazy athleticism" odd ones when applied to him.
Maybe that will become more apparent when he "gets it" and that athleticism will therefore then become more glaringly apparent.
Yeah, exactly.
I would describe him as "long" and "mobile". Leave athletically gifted for the human pogosticks.
Pretty much.
Bears out in Melo's measureables too, compared to Joakim Noah he's roughly as agile/fast as Noah while being much longer. His vertical measured both ways is several inches less.
And I wouldn't even call Noah a spectacular athlete. I think Noah is also more of a "mobile" big man.
I leave the great athlete modiker for guys like Howard, McGee, Chris Anderson, the kid Detroit drafted (I am drawing a blank on his name) and guys like that.
Drummond? Add deandre Jordan to that list too.
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for what it is worth, here is a link to a highlight reel on youtube. yes, it is a highlight reel, so keep that in mind. but aside from making every shot, watch his "athleticism."
he is pretty good. more than enough basic ability to make the nba. what he lacks is training and experience. maybe in about 1 1/2 to 2 years he might be good enough to stay on the floor.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LKyP3Por3xI (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LKyP3Por3xI)
and here is his draft video to boot. :)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IFFZOYgcbzQ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IFFZOYgcbzQ)
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Soccer has made him nimble and quick on his feet. Better than some forwards and guards even.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4b0M-N3UHvI
I feel like that play was more from soccer and instinct than the 5 years basketball experience he had.
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Melo is a mobile athlete, his combine numbers were not spectacular. Middle of the road, as I recall.
http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Fab-Melo-5715/
31" is a nice vertical for a seven footer but some others were way above him. His bench press was a measly nine and that is horrible.
I think we over rate him it's part of being a fan.
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Long and mobile sounds much better. Outside of that there is nothing really dynamic about his athleticism to me.
He's a big, solid athlete. Michael Jordan and Kevin Garnett, even Rajon Rondo are "gifted" athletes to me.
Now, this being said, if Melo has a good motor and Bradley kind of desire buried in there - he could take that decent athleticism and length and turn into a true force in the paint.
Do you guys see that in him - within, as someone said, 1-2 years?
Because if so, I "do" think:
1. He is well worth the wait.
2. That he and Sullinger would then become a very formidable duo in the paint as Melo would have great ability to cover Sullinger's lack of height and Sully would help cover Melo's lack of dominant rebounding - they would actually be a good compliment to each other.
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I remember that play you posted, the break away dunk in summer league. Agree that a lot of that ability definitely comes form the soccer background.
Hopefully he can figure out how to use that big backside, the hips and his size to seal and hold guys off so he can up his rebounding numbers.
It seems like he should be a real space eater if he can understand how to use his body correctly in the paint.
It took Perk 3-4 years.. and you can clearly see that this guy has much more length and athleticism.
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He needs to really work on his strength upper body wise.
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If he can survive the trades , he'll be a decent asset in another year. Just will make me mad , if we trade him off and then another team uses him to destroy us down the road, becasue we were too impatient . I know we need a big man now, but I HATE trading the good prospects off. :(
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He's agile and quick off of his feet, but not particularly fast or explosive. He's a good athlete, especially compared to the average seven footer. I'd say he's on par with present day KG, maybe a little better.
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I would say he is well above average for his size. Hes no Dwight Howard, but hes also no Roy Hibbert. He certainly has all the athleticism he needs to be a very good defender.
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His body is NBA ready and needs no work in my opinion. Strength, speed and length are just fine. He just has to learn how to use this body.
If someone teaches him fundamental things like getting into position for rebounds, boxing out, how to help defend and some post moves, he could turn into a Tyson Chandler type of center. And that would be really awesome.
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His body is NBA ready and needs no work in my opinion. Strength, speed and length are just fine. He just has to learn how to use this body.
If someone teaches him fundamental things like getting into position for rebounds, boxing out, how to help defend and some post moves, he could turn into a Tyson Chandler type of center. And that would be really awesome.
I think Tyson Chandler is shooting a little high, but yeah, he could be a very good center.
I do think it needs to pointed out that this stuff is not easy to teach. It really is a rare player who comes into the league (particularly at 22 or however old Melo is) with such weak fundamentals, and is able to be even a quality rotation player, let alone a top center like Chandler.
He is YEARS behind other guys in his development, many of whom are just as gifted.
That is not to say he won't be a very good player, but it is going to take spectacular discipline and commitment from him to learn how to play this game.
I think as a C's fan, it is easy to look at a guy like Perk, who made a similar transformation, and assume that its easy. But Perk really is the exception, and not the rule. Hopefully Melo can follow in Perk's footsteps, and be another exception. But it is not so easy as some make it sound.
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I didnt mean the compare him straight up with Chandler, just the body and the athleticism reminded me of Chandler. And with a good work ethic and discipline his seeling could be a Chandler like center.
Defensive stopper with some offensive moves. I'd say Fab is two, three years away from a significant role on an nba team/contender.
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His body is NBA ready and needs no work in my opinion. Strength, speed and length are just fine. He just has to learn how to use this body.
Wrong on the body, he is weak upper body.
http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Fab-Melo-5715/
http://nbadraft.net/2012-nba-combine-athleticism-analysis
The NBA only uses 185 lbs. I could do 225 lbs 28 times in my 20s. To be able to do 185 lbs 9 times is a joke. I can do that at 45 no problem and I am not a short armed guy.
http://www.topendsports.com/testing/tests/max-bench-press.htm
http://www.topendsports.com/sport/basketball/testing-nba-draft.htm
Keep in my mind he weighs over 200 lbs. I know his arms are long and that makes it more difficult. I have a 83" wingspan and I could 28 times.
He needs to work on his upper body strength. It will really help him. He could not Chandler's jockstrap athletically.
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So many people use athleticism exclusively to refer to jumping ability when talking about basketball.
Anyone who played a lot of soccer will be able to run forever and be relatively agile.
So it depends on how you're defining athletic?
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I keep forgetting we have this kid. Anyone else?
I think he'll turn into a very serviceable NBA center. Good for 15-20 minutes in a couple of years.
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His body is NBA ready and needs no work in my opinion. Strength, speed and length are just fine. He just has to learn how to use this body.
Wrong on the body, he is weak upper body.
http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Fab-Melo-5715/
http://nbadraft.net/2012-nba-combine-athleticism-analysis
The NBA only uses 185 lbs. I could do 225 lbs 28 times in my 20s. To be able to do 185 lbs 9 times is a joke. I can do that at 45 no problem and I am not a short armed guy.
http://www.topendsports.com/testing/tests/max-bench-press.htm
http://www.topendsports.com/sport/basketball/testing-nba-draft.htm
Keep in my mind he weighs over 200 lbs. I know his arms are long and that makes it more difficult. I have a 83" wingspan and I could 28 times.
He needs to work on his upper body strength. It will really help him. He could not Chandler's jockstrap athletically.
Good for you
This is basketball however and not bodybuilding. Where skills, shooting, and size matter in the NBA; benching heavy weight means nothing in the NBA. Young players are just developing into their NBA bodies. Jajuan Johnson did 15 reps....Crazy, right? He got manhandled every game. Bucks starting power forward at the moment John Henson did only 5 reps. Superstar Kevin Durant failed do one full rep.
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Kevin Durant is not a post player. He plays on the perimeter. He get's star calls but Melo won't get them. Therefore he needs to be strong. Comparing Melo to Durant is apples and oranges. Durant has guard skills, Melo does not. Durant has a multifaceted offensive game with a great jumper. Melo is a one dimensional defensive stopper.
Jae Crawford did the most reps this year and he is hardly a body builder. In fact, I do not know one body builder worth his salt that works out with 185 lbs. It is a low weight to test muscular endurance. You could not build a lot of mass with it unless you were 16 or so.
Melo will benefit a lot from building some strength. It helped Perk a lot.
But to those who think he is out of the world athlete. The combine numbers prove he is not elite in terms of athletic ability. He is not a dud either.
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I read the Fab article on the main page today and saw the phrases "athletically gifted" and "crazy athleticism" used to describe him.
I watched him in summer league and while I thought he was a "decent" athlete for a seven footer, I also thought he looked like a typical seven footer, that is, a little slow, awkward and cumbersome at times.
When I think of athletically gifted 7 footers names like David Robinson, Kevin Garnett, Dwight Howard and DeAndre Jordan type guys (athleticism only, not talent...) come to mind.
Do you guys look at Melo and think "athletically gifted"?
From what I aw in the preseaon Fab looks just as agile/mobile as Dwight Howard. I honestly don't think Howard is THAT agile overall, he's just agile for a man who's built as tank-like as he is. Obviously he has freakish leaping ability as well.
Fab seems like he's got some leaping ability himself though, just not on Howard's level (obviously). On the few blocks I've seen him get his elevation was pretty darn impressive. Bigs with average athleticism use timing rather then leaping ability to block shots , but he had Sully in his way on one of those preseason blocks and practically jumped OVER him to block the shot. That's impressive hops for a man of his size.
Athletically he reminds me a lot of Ryan Hollins, but is a better rebounder, has a better jump shot and is a MUCH better defender / shotblocker. Hollins was always considered a very good athlete, but just had no real ability.
As for the Chandler comments, I don't see.why Chandler is an unrealistic expectation defensively. Melo is probably as good a shot blocker as Chandler (maybe even better) right now. He's shown flashes of being a solid pick-and-roll defender as well, and we all know he's nowhere near his potential. If the guy wasn't so offensively raw hiabdefensive ability would probably he good enough to keep him on the court. I don't see anything Chandler does on defense that Melo couldn't potentially do just as well after 2 or 3 seasons in the league.
Even offensively Chandler is pure "catch and dunk". That pretty makes up 80% of his offensive game, with the remaining points generally coming from putbacks. He's not a skilled offensive player.
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I don't know why, but Pervis Ellison just popped into my mind. Freakishly athletic, Center, 6'9"...drafted #1.
Sometimes athletically competent (although I consider a big man who can run the floor, can jump, and has quick lateral movement to be athletically gifted), legit. 7' with long arms, healthy, can run the court is worth more than the highest accolades. Body building, if that is what is called for, and I am not sure that it is, can be added later. Both Kareem and Chief used martial arts rather than weight lifting to stay healthy, inshape, and limber. As someone said, the amount of running necessary to play soccer should make him well able to handle the up and down of basketball (and so far that seems to be the case).
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Martial arts do not build a lot of strength, some but not as much as lifting. You can get strength without building bulk. Have you ever worked out? I am guessing no.
Bruce Lee was a great martist artist and he lifted. He knew it helps and he was hardly slow.
http://www.sherdog.net/forums/f13/bruce-lees-workout-284561/
As for Chief and Kareem this isn't the 80's. The games have changed, people work out all the time. KG and PP lift weights are they muscle bound. This is not the stone ages anymore. It will help Melo to do so.
http://www.boston.com/sports/basketball/celtics/articles/2007/09/04/garnett_sweating_details/
It is a myth that lifting makes you a muscle bound and slow. These guys have trainers that prevent that. Even sprinters lift and most Olympians for each sport.
http://truthonhealth.org/challenge-steps/fitclub34-challenge/
Get with the modern age, all pros lift. It helps people to lift. It will help Melo, he is weak in this area and it will make it stronger.
Ask some of the guys here who have played ball past biddy ball, in big high school programs, college programs or some form of pros. I bet they lifted, it was mandatory for me at many of these levels.
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Martial arts do not build a lot of strength, some but not as much as lifting. You can get strength without building bulk. Have you ever worked out? I am guessing no.
Bruce Lee was a great martist artist and he lifted. He knew it helps and he was hardly slow.
http://www.sherdog.net/forums/f13/bruce-lees-workout-284561/
As for Chief and Kareem this isn't the 80's. The games have changed, people work out all the time. KG and PP lift weights are they muscle bound. This is not the stone ages anymore. It will help Melo to do so.
http://www.boston.com/sports/basketball/celtics/articles/2007/09/04/garnett_sweating_details/
It is a myth that lifting makes you a muscle bound and slow. These guys have trainers that prevent that. Even sprinters lift and most Olympians for each sport.
http://truthonhealth.org/challenge-steps/fitclub34-challenge/
Get with the modern age, all pros lift. It helps people to lift. It will help Melo, he is weak in this area and it will make it stronger.
Ask some of the guys here who have played ball past biddy ball, in big high school programs, college programs or some form of pros. I bet they lifted, it was mandatory for me at many of these levels.
ha ha ha. My dear Celtics4ever: You may not think much of my knowledge of "working out"...but for your edification and so that you can dismiss my opinion on another level, I am a 66 year old female who has always been active and yes, I have "worked out" although I don't now. Have you ever accepeted the opinion of one who might not agree with you? "I think not." I believe I said that weight lifting can be added if necessary. Everyone does not start lifting at a young age. And, incidentally, Kareem and Chief would still be top level centers if they played today. (They may very well have lifted weights too, I don't pretend to know. I do know that they were into martial arts.) Were you around to see the 80's teams?
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Lifting can be whatever you design the program to be really.
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Martial arts do not build a lot of strength, some but not as much as lifting. You can get strength without building bulk. Have you ever worked out? I am guessing no.
Bruce Lee was a great martist artist and he lifted. He knew it helps and he was hardly slow.
http://www.sherdog.net/forums/f13/bruce-lees-workout-284561/
As for Chief and Kareem this isn't the 80's. The games have changed, people work out all the time. KG and PP lift weights are they muscle bound. This is not the stone ages anymore. It will help Melo to do so.
http://www.boston.com/sports/basketball/celtics/articles/2007/09/04/garnett_sweating_details/
It is a myth that lifting makes you a muscle bound and slow. These guys have trainers that prevent that. Even sprinters lift and most Olympians for each sport.
http://truthonhealth.org/challenge-steps/fitclub34-challenge/
Get with the modern age, all pros lift. It helps people to lift. It will help Melo, he is weak in this area and it will make it stronger.
Ask some of the guys here who have played ball past biddy ball, in big high school programs, college programs or some form of pros. I bet they lifted, it was mandatory for me at many of these levels.
I have no doubt that some form of strength training is included in Fab's regimen.
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I dont get the strength topic at all, he has way more important stuff to improve then his body.
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FWIW I weight train and for the past two years have taken Kung Fu. My strength (as measured by how much I lift) is significantly lower since I started kung fu. I am not a professional and only can allocate so much of my free time to activities - so I do spend less time in the gym, but the martial arts hasn't helped maintain my strength. It has signifcantly improved my balance and opposite handside coordination/dexterity.