CelticsStrong
Celtics Basketball => Celtics Talk => Topic started by: jdz101 on November 26, 2012, 01:24:24 AM
-
Some of you commented on this in the game thread but I thought it deserved a thread of its own. I just love watching tanguay squirm.
Link Below.
http://www.csnne.com/basketball-boston-celtics/celtics-talk/Heinsohn-fires-back-at-Rondo-detractors?blockID=806107&feedID=10602
-
everyone loves downplaying rondo's ability. first it was "but he plays with 3 hall of famers" now its "oh anyone can do it"
then why hasnt anyone done it yet? oh, cuz its extremely difficult.
-
Good for Tommy.
Rondo is turning into a superstar in this league. A very rare type of superstar. A superstar that controls and dictates the game by running an offense and involving every other player in the team in the offensive flow and getting his team mates the best chance to succeed on the court as individuals and as a team. His passing on a night in and night out basis is something that hasn't been seen in the league since Stockton and Magic.
Because of Bradley's injury, he is once again in charge of taking the major responsibility of on the ball pressure and attempting to initialize the team's defense while simultaneously running the offense. This is an exhaustive thing to do night in and night out. Add to that he is playing half his minutes with players that are still unsure of themselves in the offense, missing defensive assignments, have a lack of confidence with the system or are just playing passively and the fact this streak has endured and that the Celtics are still playing winning ball only goes to show what a spectacular player Rajon Rondo really is.
As Tommy said in that piece, if you griping about the streak, you are just a Rondo detractor and have been criticizing him from day one because you've probably been spouting off about all the things he can't do perfectly instead of focusing on all the things he does unbelievably well.
-
Tommy is so awesome.
-
If there is something that can drive rondo to attack the other team's D night in and night out, it can only be a good thing.
And if he ends up toppling the record of a legend in the process then it is all good by me.
We still havent seen "Beast Rondo" be unleashed this year, but he is definitely playing great, consistent ball at the moment.
-
i love how rondo can switch on to beast mode. He preserves beast mode for the playoffs for the most part.
-
I really don't like him fishing for assists though. It's going to cost us a game eventually.
That crap where he tried to hand it back to Bass when he had an open lay up was just pure garbage.
He had 10 assists, why mess around with crap like that.
And don't say that he was trying to get Bass involved- he was trying to get another assist.
The stat padding is bogus.
I just can't wait till this streak is over because he's giving up many easy shots.
-
Good for Tommy.
Rondo is turning into a superstar in this league. A very rare type of superstar. A superstar that controls and dictates the game by running an offense and involving every other player in the team in the offensive flow and getting his team mates the best chance to succeed on the court as individuals and as a team. His passing on a night in and night out basis is something that hasn't been seen in the league since Stockton and Magic.
Because of Bradley's injury, he is once again in charge of taking the major responsibility of on the ball pressure and attempting to initialize the team's defense while simultaneously running the offense. This is an exhaustive thing to do night in and night out. Add to that he is playing half his minutes with players that are still unsure of themselves in the offense, missing defensive assignments, have a lack of confidence with the system or are just playing passively and the fact this streak has endured and that the Celtics are still playing winning ball only goes to show what a spectacular player Rajon Rondo really is.
As Tommy said in that piece, if you griping about the streak, you are just a Rondo detractor and have been criticizing him from day one because you've probably been spouting off about all the things he can't do perfectly instead of focusing on all the things he does unbelievably well.
well said agree he's been amazing the only thing you could knock him on before was he can't hit a jumper well he's doing it now
-
Can I give Tommy a Tommy Point? I don't know the rules about it
-
Can I give Tommy a Tommy Point? I don't know the rules about it
Rule #374 - Real life Tommy Points must only be given by Tommy or occasionally Gorman can suggest a Tommy Point for approval by Tommy.
-
My only complaint with the streak is that it may be leading him to create more turnovers. His Asst/T.O. ratio is still excellent though.
-
I feel bad when Tommy isn't with Gorman, Scal (lovin him) or even Donnie Wahlberg and has to be put with tanguay, donnie and don't even bring up felger. As the Boston fan base is considered pretty intelligent why do we put up with tv "personalities" like that?
Anyone remember Tommy as a coach? He :-X out more basketball knowledge every morning than those guys put together. I don't care if its against the rules, tp for tommy.
-
I'm pretty sure they were quick to put someone in Tommy's ear with a "PLEASE don't go off on him" before he really exploded ;D
Yes, Tommy Heinsohn is a homer but at least he tells it like it is and he is totally right here. I mean, being good makes you bad?! Last time I checked, the NBA was a lot about breaking records, teamwise and personal. If that is the measuring stick, then all Magic's records and all Bird's records are worthless. Same with Jordan. Wilt. Russ. Stockton. The Queen. Kobe. Oscar. And so on and so forth... Rajon's already got games that can compare to the very finest in basketball. But if those games are worthless and useless, then the rest of those guys (and their biggest games) are, too.
Seriously: "GO HOME, PEOPLE!"
-
Haters gonna hate.
Oh man, I can't wait to see how bad the haters gonna hate when Rondo passes Magic Johnson. ;D
-
Fire Donny! Tanguay is a twit. Good for Tommy! Tommy point for Tommy!
Anyone who has assist records has good players with them as it is a two part stat really with a passer and shooter. So the playing with hall of famers don't wash with me. Magic had hall of famers and Stockton had a hall of famer.
-
Tommy should have poped that 4 eyed greasy looking turd in mouth
-
I really don't like him fishing for assists though. It's going to cost us a game eventually.
That crap where he tried to hand it back to Bass when he had an open lay up was just pure garbage.
He had 10 assists, why mess around with crap like that.
And don't say that he was trying to get Bass involved- he was trying to get another assist.
The stat padding is bogus.
I just can't wait till this streak is over because he's giving up many easy shots.
Hes always done that....I'm pretty sure he knew he was wrong on that particular one hence the ensuing layups
-
I saw somebody on Twitter liken Rondo's streak to the Red Sox sellout streak because of the Detroit game.
Haters gonna hate, I guess.
-
I saw somebody on Twitter liken Rondo's streak to the Red Sox sellout streak because of the Detroit game.
Haters gonna hate, I guess.
I don't get that mentaility at all either. I understand they were down big, but you think at no time during Stockton or Magics streak that the JAzz or Lakers were up big or down big when they got assists?
It seems whenever one of the older legands in sports falls, a push is made by the media, possably to discredit the newer generation of athletes relative to the "old gaurd" new rules come into place. So far on the Rondo streak:
1) assists are easier to get, doesn't count
(even though one can youtube stockton and magic "x assist" games and see that they get just as many questionable assists)
2) he has hall of famers on his team, doesn't count
(because apperntly Karl Malone and the Multitude of lakers all stars were trash)
3) He's specificly trying for it, doesn't count
(this one is the funniest to me, like stockton and magic were simpiltons, and never figured out "boy, this is like my 30 or 40th game with 10 assists +, that's pretty good." and just magically learned they were on a streak when a helpful reporter pointed it out post streak)
4) He pads stats on fast breaks, doesn't count
(as if John stockton, a guy who ALWAYS rewarded karl for running, didn't pass up layups for Karl trailing the play. Same with Magic and Kareem)
5) since some of the games happened at home, Doesn't count do to scorekeeper giving him hometown benifit of doubt
(because Stockton and Magic NEVER played at home during thier streaks...)
6) the team is aware of it and trying to get him assists, doesn't count.
(this one again relies on the premise that Stockton's teamates and Magic's teamates were A) complete idiots that never realized they had a streak going and contributed to it or B) If the Celtics weren't invested in getting him his streak they'd be....bricking shots on purpose i guess? passing up easy layups to make an extra pass?)
It's ridiculous, and I agree with Tommy that alot of it is driven by people, media and otherwise, who are invested on the "He wouldn't be any good except for the team he's on" narrative.
-
I really don't like him fishing for assists though. It's going to cost us a game eventually.
That crap where he tried to hand it back to Bass when he had an open lay up was just pure garbage.
He had 10 assists, why mess around with crap like that.
And don't say that he was trying to get Bass involved- he was trying to get another assist.
The stat padding is bogus.
I just can't wait till this streak is over because he's giving up many easy shots.
Since this is a Tommy thread, it's worth pointing out that he's been talking about how it's important to reward bigs who make the effort to run on the break since well before Rondo came into the league. As you pointed out he already had 10 assists so you can't even criticize him for trying to get to 10 assists on that play. The "stat padding" claim is pretty silly. Rondo's the only player I've ever heard of that's been accused of stat padding for passing the ball to open teammates.
-
The Orlando announcers ended up looking really silly last night (though they probably didn't realize it).
They kept griping and would not let it go. I was watching the game pretty carefully and saw just one debatable assist decision by Rondo (the fast break). Every other play was 100% the right pass.
Then, in OT Rondo parted the waters on that drive (Jameer Nelson almost fell down jumping back to cover his man), and the ORL guys got all snarky: "Oh, when the game is on the line he takes the shot, finally."
What they completely failed to realize is that Rondo's unselfish play all game up to that point was exactly what led the ORL defenders to bite so badly on his ball fake!
Watch the play at around 0:45
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tQRbP6u5wxY
Silly. I would expect Matt Goukas to know more basketball than that.
-
As long as their winning and Rondo is playing his normal self, I have no concerns about the streak. I think the media is making it more of a distraction than it is although let's not be nieve that Rondo isn't aware of what's going on, either.
The one thing I could do without is things along the lines of that garbage play with Bass last night. Take the layoff. That was pretty bush stat pad attempt, plain & simple.
-
As long as their winning and Rondo is playing his normal self, I have no concerns about the streak. I think the media is making it more of a distraction than it is although let's not be nieve that Rondo isn't aware of what's going on, either.
The one thing I could do without is things along the lines of that garbage play with Bass last night. Take the layoff. That was pretty bush stat pad attempt, plain & simple.
I was upset it got blocked, but like BBall said, this isn't some new amazing thing for pass heavy point gaurds to do to reward big men who run.
Stockton consistantily did it every time Karl ran the floor with him on a break, was it bush then?
Nash also did it with amare, though not as often as Stockton did it since amare's intrest in playing good D and running the floor afterwards is about zilch.
Rose does it for Noah off blocks alot, bush for them to do it?
-
He might already be there, but if Rondo breaks the streak, averages almost 3-4 assists per game more than the nearest PG, shoots over 50% from the field and continues his okay to good mid range game, continues to grab 2-2.5 steals a game, and the Celtics start winning regularly, does that now make the best PG in the league?
I think it might.
-
I saw somebody on Twitter liken Rondo's streak to the Red Sox sellout streak because of the Detroit game.
Haters gonna hate, I guess.
What Rondo's done so far is more impressive than what Magic did. The Lakers scored 12 more baskets a game than the Celts do. If the Celts scored like that Rondo' streak would be consecutive games with 13 or so assists, not 10.
-
6) the team is aware of it and trying to get him assists, doesn't count.
(this one again relies on the premise that Stockton's teamates and Magic's teamates were A) complete idiots that never realized they had a streak going and contributed to it or B) If the Celtics weren't invested in getting him his streak they'd be....bricking shots on purpose i guess? passing up easy layups to make an extra pass?)
It's ridiculous, and I agree with Tommy that alot of it is driven by people, media and otherwise, who are invested on the "He wouldn't be any good except for the team he's on" narrative.
This one is the biggest hangup for me. We're not talking about a player gunning for a streak of 20+ pt games. This isn't David Robinson scoring over 70 points to win the scoring title. It's pretty hard for a player, and his teammates, to work hard to rack up assists, and have that be a detriment to the team's goals.
How people can find a way to criticize a player for passing the ball and setting up teammates to score is baffling. Sure, there are times when Rondo seems to pass up higher percentage looks he could take himself to get assists. But I'd say that only happens a very small percentage of the time. I don't think the Celtics offense could be any more efficient with Rondo looking to score more. He's pretty much at this ceiling efficiency-wise scoring 13-15 points a game on 10-12 shots.
-
As long as their winning and Rondo is playing his normal self, I have no concerns about the streak. I think the media is making it more of a distraction than it is although let's not be nieve that Rondo isn't aware of what's going on, either.
The one thing I could do without is things along the lines of that garbage play with Bass last night. Take the layoff. That was pretty bush stat pad attempt, plain & simple.
I was upset it got blocked, but like BBall said, this isn't some new amazing thing for pass heavy point gaurds to do to reward big men who run.
Stockton consistantily did it every time Karl ran the floor with him on a break, was it bush then?
Nash also did it with amare, though not as often as Stockton did it since amare's intrest in playing good D and running the floor afterwards is about zilch.
Rose does it for Noah off blocks alot, bush for them to do it?
I think there's a big difference between not liking that play and not liking point guards passing to big men on the break.
Nobody's saying Rondo shouldn't reward bigs who run the floor - rather, the criticism is based on the game being close, and Rondo being about 4 paces ahead of any defender, and stopping to pass it backwards to a guy who was about 1/2 pace ahead, who then got blocked at the rim.
I like that Rondo looks for other guys to finish on the break - it's great for the team. If it's an easy finish either way I'm all for it. But when he deliberately makes a simple basket more difficult in a close game, I don't see anything wrong with criticizing it.
-
As long as their winning and Rondo is playing his normal self, I have no concerns about the streak. I think the media is making it more of a distraction than it is although let's not be nieve that Rondo isn't aware of what's going on, either.
The one thing I could do without is things along the lines of that garbage play with Bass last night. Take the layoff. That was pretty bush stat pad attempt, plain & simple.
I was upset it got blocked, but like BBall said, this isn't some new amazing thing for pass heavy point gaurds to do to reward big men who run.
Stockton consistantily did it every time Karl ran the floor with him on a break, was it bush then?
Nash also did it with amare, though not as often as Stockton did it since amare's intrest in playing good D and running the floor afterwards is about zilch.
Rose does it for Noah off blocks alot, bush for them to do it?
I think there's a big difference between not liking that play and not liking point guards passing to big men on the break.
Nobody's saying Rondo shouldn't reward bigs who run the floor - rather, the criticism is based on the game being close, and Rondo being about 4 paces ahead of any defender, and stopping to pass it backwards to a guy who was about 1/2 pace ahead, who then got blocked at the rim.
I like that Rondo looks for other guys to finish on the break - it's great for the team. If it's an easy finish either way I'm all for it. But when he deliberately makes a simple basket more difficult in a close game, I don't see anything wrong with criticizing it.
Exactly. That particular play was dumb. Things ended up working out in the end but that pass didn't need to be made at all when he was steps ahead of anyone with nothing but basket in front of him.
He should've taken the layup. Period.
He still had one heckuva game, though. Just that play was unnecessary and pretty dumb.
-
I saw somebody on Twitter liken Rondo's streak to the Red Sox sellout streak because of the Detroit game.
Haters gonna hate, I guess.
What Rondo's done so far is more impressive than what Magic did. The Lakers scored 12 more baskets a game than the Celts do. If the Celts scored like that Rondo' streak would be consecutive games with 13 or so assists, not 10.
That's not even the most exasperating thing, though. Were the assists in the Detroit game not real assists? Were they phantom passes to phantom players making phantom buckets, with phantom defenders, like phantom butts in the empty seats at Fenway?
Unless somebody can go through tape of all the games Stockton and Magic played with double digit assists and tell me that every single of those assists came in "meaningful" minutes, I call that analogy bogus.
He might already be there, but if Rondo breaks the streak, averages almost 3-4 assists per game more than the nearest PG, shoots over 50% from the field and continues his okay to good mid range game, continues to grab 2-2.5 steals a game, and the Celtics start winning regularly, does that now make the best PG in the league?
I think it might.
I think people are still gonna give guys like Paul and Westbrook that nod because they are more dangerous with the ball in their hands in a one or two possession game when a basket or two will seal the deal. Rondo is always going to be behind guys like Paul, Westbrook, Rose, and D-Will in that regard. But over the course of an entire game, I think it's hard to find a point guard who does more to help his team win -- even if none of the advanced stats seems to be able to adequately account for Rondo's value.
-
i have Philly csn >:(. And i freakin hate it! gotta watch sixers, phillies, etc all the darn time. And the broadcasting is turrible.
-
Rondo has continued to improve his game. I don't consider him the best PG in the game as many do but if he maintains this improvement trajectory, he may well become the best. He is certainly a great passer.
That pass to Bass though was a bone head play in a close game. It gave all the streak doubters something to hang their hats on.
There are definitely times when Rondo over passes (most every game there is a play where he tries too hard to pass). He over passed at times before the streak too. Most would prefer this to over shooting but it can just as easily cost a game.
I saw a lot of Magic Johnson and Stockton games in my day and even though I am sure they had some over-passing, you really didn't see it the way you see it with Rondo. They were both much more confident in their shooting which I am sure is part of the reason.
If Rondo is going to continue his improvement trajectory, he will need to address the over-passing and just play the game. Cutting down on bad passes is important for a passer just like cutting down on bad shots is important for a shooter and it is something that Rondo needs to work on.
-
While this is unrelated to the Bass play, Rondo gets criticized for passing up shots than he should. He often drives the lane and draws in defenders and then passes the ball out for jump shots. Since Rondo never shot the ball, the defenders that came in never tried to block the non-shot, so people claim that he passed up a wide open layup.
-
Rondo plays for assists / stats once in awhile, which is frustrating. However, it happens a lot less than some critics suggest. During the streak, Rondo hasn't played much differently than he always has, and he's currently averaging a career high in points and FG%. It's hard to be critical.
-
That one Bass pass upset me. I also remember a time last year that someone inbounded a ball and he let it roll and roll to save a bit of time and the other team stole it. That seemed dumb also.
But Rondo has been absolutely awesome this year. I can't expect him to do anything better. He has been as close to perfect as it gets for point guards. Rondo seems to get picked on a disproportionate amount. I really wouldn't have him change a thing.
-
Rondo plays for assists / stats once in awhile, which is frustrating. However, it happens a lot less than some critics suggest. During the streak, Rondo hasn't played much differently than he always has, and he's currently averaging a career high in points and FG%. It's hard to be critical.
His historically high assist totals have been going on longer than the streak. He had the highest numbers since the mid-80s (as far as the basketballreference numbers go back) in 10-11 until his play was hampered by injuries.
-
We have the best passer in the game as our point guard. Not only is he the best passer in the game today, but he's proving to be one of the greatest passers in the history of basketball.
I'm not going to complain that he gets a little selfish about that every once in a while.
As to the fast break pass to Bass that everyone hates:
1. The reason Brandon was sprinting up the court with Rondo ahead of him was because he knew he might get the ball. That's a good habit to build in your teammates; run hard, cut hard, move, get open, and you will get the ball. This keeps everyone committed on offense.
2. He was given uncontested, easy layups late in the game in transition, due to the defense expecting him to pass the ball. This was set up in large part by that play earlier where he passed up an easy layup to get the ball to a hard running teammate.
-
While ROndo is not MJ yet. His jumper has improved a ton over his first years . I believe he'll slowly improve it and incorporate it into his game. A deadly jump shot , would really cement his bid to be considered as the NBAs best point guard.
-
While I agree that NBA assists are inflated, I have no family friendly comments for anyone questioning Rondo's awesomeness.
-
While I agree that NBA assists are inflated, I have no family friendly comments for anyone questioning Rondo's awesomeness.
How inflated are nba assists? In both of the years of the long streaks (Stockton and Magic) assists were awarded on 60% of made baskets, and teams averaged 26 assists a game. Last year assists were awarded on 57% of made baskets and teams averaged 21 assists a game. The "inflated" numbers are lower than the numbers they're being compared to.
In fact, even if you go back to the 60s, when assists were less liberally awarded (about 50% of baskets, they were *still* getting more assists/game than now due to the pace of the game.
-
While I agree that NBA assists are inflated, I have no family friendly comments for anyone questioning Rondo's awesomeness.
How inflated are nba assists? In both of the years of the long streaks (Stockton and Magic) assists were awarded on 60% of made baskets, and teams averaged 26 assists a game. Last year assists were awarded on 57% of made baskets and teams averaged 21 assists a game. The "inflated" numbers are lower than the numbers they're being compared to.
In fact, even if you go back to the 60s, when assists were less liberally awarded (about 50% of baskets, they were *still* getting more assists/game than now due to the pace of the game.
I'm european and I compare NBA assists to european leagues' assists. During the 80's and early 90's I could only get to see some playoff games, so I have no opinion on assists of that era vs today.
-
While I agree that NBA assists are inflated, I have no family friendly comments for anyone questioning Rondo's awesomeness.
How inflated are nba assists? In both of the years of the long streaks (Stockton and Magic) assists were awarded on 60% of made baskets, and teams averaged 26 assists a game. Last year assists were awarded on 57% of made baskets and teams averaged 21 assists a game. The "inflated" numbers are lower than the numbers they're being compared to.
In fact, even if you go back to the 60s, when assists were less liberally awarded (about 50% of baskets, they were *still* getting more assists/game than now due to the pace of the game.
I'm european and I compare NBA assists to european leagues' assists. During the 80's and early 90's I could only get to see some playoff games, so I have no opinion on assists of that era vs today.
Ah. I misunderstood your comment.
-
I really don't like him fishing for assists though. It's going to cost us a game eventually.
That crap where he tried to hand it back to Bass when he had an open lay up was just pure garbage.
He had 10 assists, why mess around with crap like that.
And don't say that he was trying to get Bass involved- he was trying to get another assist.
The stat padding is bogus.
I just can't wait till this streak is over because he's giving up many easy shots.
I agree that particular stunt with Bass was bogus, but I don't think Rondo has generally pulled stuff like that.
-
I really don't like him fishing for assists though. It's going to cost us a game eventually.
That crap where he tried to hand it back to Bass when he had an open lay up was just pure garbage.
He had 10 assists, why mess around with crap like that.
And don't say that he was trying to get Bass involved- he was trying to get another assist.
The stat padding is bogus.
I just can't wait till this streak is over because he's giving up many easy shots.
Hes always done that....I'm pretty sure he knew he was wrong on that particular one hence the ensuing layups
i was gonna say this too. he has done that since day one. i don't think he did it to get another assist.
-
I dislike GT, Donny is oddly growing on me in recent years.
But I don't think Tommy owned GT here. They're right; as long as its not costing wins, the streak is a big deal, and on of the good ones.
But the whole 'looking for a reason' going back years narrative struck me as a bit paranoid. Perhaps Tommy deals with it more or sees it more often, but I don't see it. At least not en masse.
-
I dislike GT, Donny is oddly growing on me in recent years.
But I don't think Tommy owned GT here. They're right; as long as its not costing wins, the streak is a big deal, and on of the good ones.
But the whole 'looking for a reason' going back years narrative struck me as a bit paranoid. Perhaps Tommy deals with it more or sees it more often, but I don't see it. At least not en masse.
I strongly dislike Gary Tanguay, he's super corny and not nearly educated enough when it comes to actual basketball.