CelticsStrong
Celtics Basketball => Celtics Talk => Topic started by: OttawaCeltic on November 24, 2012, 10:23:31 AM
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I am in that like 10% of the Celtic fans who favor this trade, and my reasons are that:
- Mickaël Piétrus may serve as a good defense replacement and he would only cost a vet.min
- Our major problems are defense, rebounding and the lack post-threats. Gortat MAY serve out our solution
- Other pieces may include Lee&Melo. And if, I.F., Green doesn't get this much consistent, then include him instead.(Balance the trade money)
- Untradeable pieces in my opinion are: Rondo, Pierce, Kevin, Bass, Sullinger, Joseph, Barbosa, Terry, Wilcox, Collins(idk, but i like this guy), Green(if he becomes a '9million' player)
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Green's not going anywhere, and you saw why last night. He'll get it.
As for Bradley, he remains a largely unproven player with a small sample size of productive play and significant ongoing health questions that we can replace with this roster.
I'm fine with moving him for inside help.
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I am strongly in favor of acquiring Gortat, too.
I do think that there are a lot more than 10% of us who are for acquiring Gortat, even at the expense of Bradley.
I also think that we can acquire Gortat without Bradley being included.
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Just wanted to put this to a poll and see how many of us are for or against trading Bradley in a deal that would get us Gortat if this was the only deal the Suns would accept.
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Would hate to give up on Bradley, he MAY become a special player, but Gortat gives us what we need NOW.
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Would hate to give up on Bradley, he MAY become a special player, but Gortat gives us what we need NOW.
I agree with this. And while I voted yes, I do so very reluctantly.
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Is there an "argh my head, it hurts" option?
I want Gortat but I know it will take Avery to get him. And all posters convinced me that Avery is very important to us.
Argh! My head!
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we were an amazing team with bradley starting for us. he has that something that makes the whole team play better. Not sure the trade would be a net positive for us.
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Green's not going anywhere, and you saw why last night. He'll get it.
As for Bradley, he remains a largely unproven player with a small sample size of productive play and significant ongoing health questions that we can replace with this roster.
I'm fine with moving him for inside help.
I dont think you can easily replace his defense....if you trade bradley, you likely start Terry the rest of the season and that is a downgrade defensively
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well, if the starting lineup when bradley is back plays like they did with him in it last season, I dont really see it as a net positive...you also likely have to give up someone like Bass/sully to make the salaries work. so you are giving up 2 good/reliable players for one above average center.
as we saw last night all this team may need to start clicking is just some time....Wilcox seems to be doing a good job of spelling KG/rolling to the basket
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Big men are always far more valuable than little men, especially when the little man is the one that is always hurt. You make the trade in a second, don't give it a second thought, and don't ever look back and laugh your way to the bank.
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I've been a big proponent of trying to get Gortat, but, still, I abstained from voting.
I wish there was a "Maybe" option. After Rondo, Pierce, and Garnett, the Honey Badger is the player I would hate to lose the most. I'm hoping Danny can make a deal for Gortat without having to give up Avery.
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I am in that like 10% of the Celtic fans who favor this trade, and my reasons are that:
- Mickaël Piétrus may serve as a good defense replacement and he would only cost a vet.min
- Our major problems are defense, rebounding and the lack post-threats. Gortat MAY serve out our solution
- Other pieces may include Lee&Melo. And if, I.F., Green doesn't get this much consistent, then include him instead.(Balance the trade money)
- Untradeable pieces in my opinion are: Rondo, Pierce, Kevin, Bass, Sullinger, Joseph, Barbosa, Terry, Wilcox, Collins(idk, but i like this guy), Green(if he becomes a '9million' player)
The untradeable list for the win now team has three names, Rondo, KG and Pierce.
I am for the move that brings a player like Gortat here. Celtics are not going to "out small" the Heat. They need strong starting big men.
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Danny Ainge isn't going to panic and make this trade because we're one game over .500 thirteen games into the season! Bradley will instantly make us a better defensive team as soon as he returns. Terry can return to his natural 6th man role. Wilcox and Green still aren't 100%, but they are looking stronger every week. Sullinger has been solid so far and hes starting to make some big plays for us. We're suffering the growing pains now but we'll be a much better team come playoff time!
If anyone is the odd man out its Courtney Lee. He becomes expendable once Bradley returns. If Lee+Bass+2013 1st round pick isn't enough for Gortat and filler then we're not buying.
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Yes, though I'd rather see us cut into our big man depth, like Bass + Sully. I wouldn't mind Lee and Sully either, nor Lee and Bass if it meant keeping a 1st rounder.
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I would give up Avery to get Josh Smith, but not Gortat. This is based strictly on talent going out vs, talent coming back.
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Can't take you seriously after seeing your untradeable list.
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I would not trade Bradley for Gortat, we need Bradley's guard defense more than we need Gortat's contributions, particularly with Terry in our roster.
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Yeah if danny can get gortat without trading bradley man..........we'd beat the heat for sure unless lebron does something super inhuman again. If we give up AB for him.......i mean, we could be better we could be worse. I voted no of course. I want gortat but not at the expense of giving up bradley. I have spoken.
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I'd hate to see him go but other teams want assets.
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we were an amazing team with bradley starting for us. he has that something that makes the whole team play better. Not sure the trade would be a net positive for us.
no idea how much Bradley will contribute after both shoulders operated on and the long layoff. Gortat has stats to back himself up with. Gortat makes us a contender, Bradley doesn't.
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we were an amazing team with bradley starting for us. he has that something that makes the whole team play better. Not sure the trade would be a net positive for us.
no idea how much Bradley will contribute after both shoulders operated on and the long layoff. Gortat has stats to back himself up with. Gortat makes us a contender, Bradley doesn't.
::)
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id vote "unsure" if that was an option
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That's the scenario I'm afraid.
We could really use Gortat. Another last line defender and a solid rebounder an scorer. Bradley will also help us with his hut down defense and preven penetration.
I was convinced yesterday that we don't need Gortat. But know its playing in my head again that he'll help us win now.
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Of course we don't NEED gortat. This is just typical celtics fans overreacting and needing a new toy to play with so they can sleep well at night until we lose the next game and they panic again. We will be just fine once AB returns. I want gortat but we definitely don't need him. Especially at the expense of messing up our chemistry and trading away our very promising elite defensive guard along with whoever else.
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I think we can get Gortat without giving up Bradley. I think it would need to be a package of Sullinger, Lee and picks.
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No thanks...involve lee
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Green's not going anywhere, and you saw why last night. He'll get it.
As for Bradley, he remains a largely unproven player with a small sample size of productive play and significant ongoing health questions that we can replace with this roster.
I'm fine with moving him for inside help.
How is 1 good game as a Celtic any more Proven then what Bradley has done.
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Of course we don't NEED gortat. This is just typical celtics fans overreacting and needing a new toy to play with so they can sleep well at night until we lose the next game and they panic again. We will be just fine once AB returns. I want gortat but we definitely don't need him. Especially at the expense of messing up our chemistry and trading away our very promising elite defensive guard along with whoever else.
I haven't panic once this season. I posted that patience is the key to this team.
But if I see a move that can improve the Celtics chance to win now, I am all for it. Getting a top level starting big (and that is what Gortat is), it improves the Celtics chances of beating the Heat in the playoffs.
It wasn't Wade that killed the Celtics in the playoffs. It was the return of Bosh that forced KG away from the paint on defense. If there was another big down there that could close the lane for Lebron while still fitting into the offense, that is a huge bonus.
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I'm going to say yes.
I like Bradley a lot. I think he can be a special player.
However, what a lot of people are ignoring is that you have to give up something of worth to get something of worth.
While we'd all obviously rather trade Bass, Lee and a second round pick for Gortat, Phoenix obviously is going to want to have value for a center who is averaging a double double and over two blocks per game.
Guys like that don't grow on trees.
And given our current depth at the guard spot with Lee, Barbosa, and Terry and the fact that Gortat is young enough to still be a building block, I think it's the right move to make.
With Rondo, Green, Sully, and Gortat, you have a nice core for the future. And we'd only really be left with a hole at the 2/3 spots, which is far easier to fill than the 5 spot.
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id vote "unsure" if that was an option
I purposefully left out an unsure or maybe option to force people to make a decision, since I figured most of us are unsure
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Wade was limited in the playoffs with his knee injury. I'm not gonna count on him to be limited again. And we lost two games to the heat before bosh even played one game. Our defense was the best in the league once AB was in the starting lineup with KG and rondo.
Id like to see if we can go back to that before i get all trade happy. If the suns don't take LEE and Sully forget it. Gortat isn't elite at anything hes just good at things and its no guarantee we are better with him after we dump bradley.
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Wade was limited in the playoffs with his knee injury. I'm not gonna count on him to be limited again. And we lost two games to the heat before bosh even played one game. Our defense was the best in the league once AB was in the starting lineup with KG and rondo.
Id like to see if we can go back to that before i get all trade happy. If the suns don't take LEE and Sully forget it. Gortat isn't elite at anything hes just good at things and its no guarantee we are better with him after we dump bradley.
But he wasn't the differences maker. He was defended by an even more limited Ray Allen.
The difference maker was have KG being able to be down low defensively to limit James (as well as you can limit him now a days) which limited the rest of the team and Bosh pulling KG out, opening up the game for James.
Is Gortat going to put the Celtics over the top? Who really knows. But it certainly has the potential to change that issue in the playoffs.
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Several good ideas here. But I'm starting to enjoy Sullys game and feel AB earned his spot therefore after the surgeries will come back with that mindset, to earn his spot back. I'd do Lee, Melo, and A second round pick.
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Several good ideas here. But I'm starting to enjoy Sullys game and feel AB earned his spot therefore after the surgeries will come back with that mindset, to earn his spot back. I'd do Lee, Melo, and A second round pick.
The entire NBA can put together a better offer than Lee, Melo, and a second round pick.
I'd trade a folding chair for Gortat, but Phoenix has to agree to it.
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Several good ideas here. But I'm starting to enjoy Sullys game and feel AB earned his spot therefore after the surgeries will come back with that mindset, to earn his spot back. I'd do Lee, Melo, and A second round pick.
The entire NBA can put together a better offer than Lee, Melo, and a second round pick.
I'd trade a folding chair for Gortat, but Phoenix has to agree to it.
Very well put.
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The Celtics need a rim protector besides KG. We all thought they had one when they signed Darko but now he's gone. I want Gortat because he and Rondo would work tremendously together like Gortat and Nash did in Phoenix. Not only that, but having Gortat in the middle gives the C's another rim protector against Miami which can free KG up to play against Bosh. The reason why the Heat beat the Celtics was because Bosh forced KG to cover him on the perimeter which made life easier for Lebron to drive with KG out of the post.
Alas, I'd still keep Bradley and Lee because the Celtics need to make life hell for Wade and Ray, and that happens if those two are covering them. Life will be harder for the C's if they give up one or both of them. In a perfect world where everything works out for the Celtics, the Suns accept the offer of Bass+1st rounder for Gortat.
Note: I actually think things are getting better for this team after last night and I like the core, but I pray we can work something out for Gortat without giving up Lee/Bradley/Sully. I really like Brandon Bass but I'm always up for an upgrade with Gortat.
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Celtics Recieve:
Marcin Gortat
Suns Recieve:
Courtney Lee
Fab Melo
Kris Joseph
1st pick
Then, sign Mickael Pitrus and Birdman.
Rajon Rondo / Jason Terry / Leandro Barbosa
Avery Bradley / Mickael Pitrus /
Paul Pierce / Jeff Green /
Kevin Garnett / Jared Sullinger / Chris Wilcox
Marcin Gortat / Birdman Andersen / Jason Collins
We'd be really deep at the 4 & 5 so we would have to trade Bass for a wing or a point guard... we could get really good players for him.
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Of course we don't NEED gortat. This is just typical celtics fans overreacting and needing a new toy to play with so they can sleep well at night until we lose the next game and they panic again. We will be just fine once AB returns. I want gortat but we definitely don't need him. Especially at the expense of messing up our chemistry and trading away our very promising elite defensive guard along with whoever else.
We get it, man. You don't want to trade Avery. The truth seems to be that the majority of fans who really like Gortat don't seem to want to part with Bradley either. Most of what I've read on the subject seems to be fairly measured and reasonable.
I'm not seeing a lot of the panickers participating in this discussion. I'm not panicking at all. I really like this team, but if Marcin Gortat is available and Danny's in line to get him for a package that doesn't include any of our three star players, I feel that we have to at least consider it.
That's all.
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I really like this team, but if Marcin Gortat is available and Danny's in line to get him for a package that doesn't include any of our three star players, I feel that we have to at least consider it.
THIS
I'd give up Lee, Sully, Melo and a pick for Gortat in a heartbeat. I love Sully, but Gortat is clearly a much better player right now- and we are gunning for banner 18 THIS year. Gortat and KG starting with Wilcox and Bass coming off the bench would make for an excellent frontcourt. Giving up Lee could hurt us if AB doesn't come back as strong as we all think he will, but that's a risk I'd be willing to take.
My only concern is how Gortat would feel about his role here, since he wouldn't be a huge part of the team's offense. I don't know if we should risk upsetting the team chemistry mid-season, since we all remember how that turned out last time.
As far as Avery Bradley goes, I am very much on the fence. If a Bass-Bradley-Melo-picks for Gortat deal went down, I'm not sure how I'd feel about it. Bradley is extremely young, injury prone, coming off of surgery, small sample size, and all that jazz. He could turn into an all star, or he could have a short, injury-riddled, and disappointing career. That deal could easily become an embarrassment for either team, depending on how the young players' careers play out and how much Gortat helps us this season. All I know is that I would not fault Danny for pulling the trigger on that deal- noone can deny that it has the potential to significantly improve our shot at Banner 18. I can easily see the deal backfiring, but sometimes you have to take risks to reap the rewards.
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Celtics Recieve:
Marcin Gortat
Suns Recieve:
Courtney Lee
Fab Melo
Kris Joseph
1st pick
Then, sign Mickael Pitrus and Birdman.
Rajon Rondo / Jason Terry / Leandro Barbosa
Avery Bradley / Mickael Pitrus /
Paul Pierce / Jeff Green /
Kevin Garnett / Jared Sullinger / Chris Wilcox
Marcin Gortat / Birdman Andersen / Jason Collins
We'd be really deep at the 4 & 5 so we would have to trade Bass for a wing or a point guard... we could get really good players for him.
I don't think you're reading the other posts on this thread... Phoenix will surely get better offers than this one.
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- Untradeable pieces in my opinion are: Rondo, Pierce, Kevin, Bass, Sullinger, Joseph, Barbosa, Terry, Wilcox, Collins(idk, but i like this guy), Green(if he becomes a '9million' player)
Avery Bradley is tradeable, but Kris Joseph and Collins are "untradeable"?
.... wut?
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Celtics Recieve:
Marcin Gortat
Suns Recieve:
Courtney Lee
Fab Melo
Kris Joseph
1st pick
Then, sign Mickael Pitrus and Birdman.
Rajon Rondo / Jason Terry / Leandro Barbosa
Avery Bradley / Mickael Pitrus /
Paul Pierce / Jeff Green /
Kevin Garnett / Jared Sullinger / Chris Wilcox
Marcin Gortat / Birdman Andersen / Jason Collins
We'd be really deep at the 4 & 5 so we would have to trade Bass for a wing or a point guard... we could get really good players for him.
I don't think you're reading the other posts on this thread... Phoenix will surely get better offers than this one.
There's always someone who thinks we can trade our trash for a good player if we send out enough trash. Unfortunately when it comes to trades, we are not the lakers.
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I thought everyone was of the same belief as mine: the most trade-able players are Bass, Lee, and Melo, and to a lesser extent Green and Sullinger.
Collins, Wilcox, Joseph, and Barbosa aren't very trade-able because they won't fetch much, although Joseph could be a bonus piece in a big trade.
Rondo, Pierce, KG, Bradley, and Terry aren't trade-able for obvious reasons. Green and Sullinger fit more in this category than in the "not fetching much" category.
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I thought everyone was of the same belief as mine: the most trade-able players are Bass, Lee, and Melo, and to a lesser extent Green and Sullinger.
Collins, Wilcox, Joseph, and Barbosa aren't very trade-able because they won't fetch much, although Joseph could be a bonus piece in a big trade.
Rondo, Pierce, KG, Bradley, and Terry aren't trade-able for obvious reasons. Green and Sullinger fit more in this category than in the "not fetching much" category.
I'm with you completely.
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I'd do it unless I had insider knowledge that it'd mess with chemistry.
Bradley for all of his potential is an unknown. How will he come back from his injuries (especially his shot)? Is he in shape? Will he be prone to injuries? Can he be as good as last year? Can he be better?
Gortat is a known quantity. He's heady and can basically combine the strengths of Wilcox and Sully into one player with more length. He can play with KG and probably be the guy to help shore up the D when KG needs a blow.
I could be completely wrong, but if the deal was there...I'd give up Bradley and Bass (I'd rather give up a pu pu platter of other reserves because Bass' range is valuable off the bench).
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I thought everyone was of the same belief as mine: the most trade-able players are Bass, Lee, and Melo, and to a lesser extent Green and Sullinger.
Bass/Sullinger and Lee/Terry/Bradley are all fairly expendable due to the depth we have at those positions. However, I'm not sure why you had Terry in your untrade-able list- we'd still have Bradley and Lee at the 2 spot and Rondo and Barbosa at the 1.
Also, it's already been said many times but Green is not really trade-able unless we get a legit backup 3 in return. I don't think relying on Peaches or some other random pick-up is a good move.
Gortat is a known quantity. He's heady and can basically combine the strengths of Wilcox and Sully into one player with more length. He can play with KG and probably be the guy to help shore up the D when KG needs a blow.
Gortat is a very good all-around basketball player. Defensively, he protects the rim and rebounds extremely well. He can provide the backbone we need when KG is on the pine, and pairing those two together would create quite a formidable frontcourt. Offensively, he has a nice jumper with decent range, and can be very effective rolling to the hoop. With Rondo he could be an efficient scorer and help take more of the scoring load away from KG and Paul.
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I thought everyone was of the same belief as mine: the most trade-able players are Bass, Lee, and Melo, and to a lesser extent Green and Sullinger.
Bass/Sullinger and Lee/Terry/Bradley are all fairly expendable due to the depth we have at those positions. However, I'm not sure why you had Terry in your untrade-able list- we'd still have Bradley and Lee at the 2 spot and Rondo and Barbosa at the 1.
Also, it's already been said many times but Green is not really trade-able unless we get a legit backup 3 in return. I don't think relying on Peaches or some other random pick-up is a good move.
Gortat is a known quantity. He's heady and can basically combine the strengths of Wilcox and Sully into one player with more length. He can play with KG and probably be the guy to help shore up the D when KG needs a blow.
Gortat is a very good all-around basketball player. Defensively, he protects the rim and rebounds extremely well. He can provide the backbone we need when KG is on the pine, and pairing those two together would create quite a formidable frontcourt. Offensively, he has a nice jumper with decent range, and can be very effective rolling to the hoop. With Rondo he could be an efficient scorer and help take more of the scoring load away from KG and Paul.
I think a lot of people forget that Green is a very good wing defender who can guard every guy we would have to face on the way to 18, including Lebron, Carmelo, Amare, Boozer, Deng, Evan Turner, Durant, and Kobe. There is no one on the FA list that comes even remotely close to doing that.
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Bradley will be back soon and all of these questions will be answered. To trade him before that is stupid IMO.
We could very well already have a team that's good enough to go the distance. No need to pull any early triggers.
Before this season started most of us thought we were already good enough. I know i did.
Problem is LEE and GREEN are underachieving a great deal right now. We were counting on them to be huge for us and so for a disappointment.
AB coming back not only makes our defense and starting lineup a ton better but it moves terry back to the bench thus making the bench better.
I don't even think we can fairly judge this team until AB returns. That's how valuable he is to this team.
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Bradley will be back soon and all of these questions will be answered. To trade him before that is stupid IMO.
We could very well already have a team that's good enough to go the distance. No need to pull any early triggers.
Before this season started most of us thought we were already good enough. I know i did.
Problem is LEE and GREEN are underachieving a great deal right now. We were counting on them to be huge for us and so for a disappointment.
AB coming back not only makes our defense and starting lineup a ton better but it moves terry back to the bench thus making the bench better.
I don't even think we can fairly judge this team until AB returns. That's how valuable he is to this team.
Wow, Avery, is that you?!?!
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Bradley will be back soon and all of these questions will be answered. To trade him before that is stupid IMO.
We could very well already have a team that's good enough to go the distance. No need to pull any early triggers.
Before this season started most of us thought we were already good enough. I know i did.
Problem is LEE and GREEN are underachieving a great deal right now. We were counting on them to be huge for us and so for a disappointment.
AB coming back not only makes our defense and starting lineup a ton better but it moves terry back to the bench thus making the bench better.
I don't even think we can fairly judge this team until AB returns. That's how valuable he is to this team.
Wow, Avery, is that you?!?!
lol, shut up.
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I don't even think we can fairly judge this team until AB returns. That's how valuable he is to this team.
Agreed -- Avery is the piece that lifts Boston from a good playoff team to a title contender.
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LOL
You guys speak of Avery Bradley as if this guy was Michael Jordan! I don't care what anyone says, a third year 2 guard coming off double shoulder surgery is not in any way going to lift this team from playoff contender to title contender.
Look at it this way, we're 1 big man injury away from being kicked out in the 2nd round. On the other hand, we could reasonably sustain an injury to any of our guards not named Rondo and still be in contention to make it deep.
Big man depth always always always counts for more than scoring and ball pressure and what Bradley gives us in defense and scoring, Gortat more than makes up for closer to the basket where the percentages REALLY count.
If anyone is going to help this team get over the cliff, it'll be the guy who helps out our best player in KG, not the Jeremy Lin of defense who had a good stretch run and is a complete wild card at this point in his career.
The legend of Avery Bradley is getting far too out of control. ::)
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I'm pretty sure there will be an agreement with terry somewhere that he won't be traded.
Carry on though.
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Like to see LEE traded , as opposed to Bradley. I guess ing Joseph is gonna be far better than Lee anyway by next year.
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I don't even think we can fairly judge this team until AB returns. That's how valuable he is to this team.
Agreed -- Avery is the piece that lifts Boston from a good playoff team to a title contender.
This statement is pretty much the bottom line, and Boston fans are't the only ones that know this, the other GM's have eyes and ears too.
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I like Avery as much as the next guy....but for a starting NBA guard:
a) He is a very good on-ball defender, probably top 10%.
b) He is limited offensively: He is not a natural point, if one at all, has limited range for a 2. He is a little below average offensively.
Bottom-line is I don't think he is that hard to replace. Yes, we played great when he was inserted in the starting line-up last year - but how much of that was Bradley? It was that same line-up, sans Bradley, that took the Heat to 7....In addition, we now have a solid 4 guard rotation of Rondo, Terry, Lee, Barbosa, with Pierce being able to slot in at the 2 in a pinch.
Meanwhile, we are small at the 4/5, with no real post presence, and are vulnerable to muscular, aggressive 4/5 players (Chris Singleton's season high in points came against us, and Reggie Evans looked a few cuts above the journey-man he is...). KG and Wilcox are small for 5s, as are Bass and Sully for 4s.
So, if we can get a skilled big man, who will give us some combination of interior defensive presence, post game, rebounding, and shot-blocking, then I'd be for moving Bradley.
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Green's not going anywhere, and you saw why last night. He'll get it.
As for Bradley, he remains a largely unproven player with a small sample size of productive play and significant ongoing health questions that we can replace with this roster.
I'm fine with moving him for inside help.
My bold highlight is the one and only reason I would think about this trade. Assuming AB is completely healthy and will continue to stay that way, I would not trade him for Gortat. AB is a potential All-NBA first team defender and you simply don't trade those guys for a backup center.
But AB has had problems staying healthy. If Danny thinks this is something that will continue for AB's career, and PHX will look the other way and accept him, then I would be OK with the trade.
The larger issue is of course AB's salary doesn't come close to Gortat, so we'd have to throw in either Bass or Green, or I guess Lee and maybe Melo. That is WAY too much to trade for Gortat.
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It wasn't Wade that killed the Celtics in the playoffs. It was the return of Bosh that forced KG away from the paint on defense. If there was another big down there that could close the lane for Lebron while still fitting into the offense, that is a huge bonus.
More like Bosh, Battier, and Chalmers hitting 3's. Gortat does nothing to fix that.
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I really like this team, but if Marcin Gortat is available and Danny's in line to get him for a package that doesn't include any of our three star players, I feel that we have to at least consider it.
THIS
I'd give up Lee, Sully, Melo and a pick for Gortat in a heartbeat. I love Sully, but Gortat is clearly a much better player right now- and we are gunning for banner 18 THIS year
Getting Marcin Gortat in no way guarantees us a trip to the Finals. We almost beat Miami last year with a team that had even less big depth than we do now. Not having a center WAS NOT the reason Miami beat us last year.
Now...you could argue that there is a good chance we won't get lucky enough to reach the EC Finals without an improvement down low. Maybe we don't need a Gortat-like player to beat Miami, but we might need that player to beat the Knicks or Nets. I don't know if I agree, but that is a more reasonable position than "Gortat = Banner 18."
Also, remember the conversation people were having on these boards last year. It was either "blow it up" or "keep it together." There was some strength to the "blow it up" argument. This is a team that needs to REBUILD FOR THE FUTURE. We cannot continue to trot out Pierce and KG indefinitely, supplementing them with the Jason Terrys and Wilcoxs of the world, and expect to win a championship.
If we dump Avery Bradley and Sullinger, or one of those with Melo and future picks, we are flushing any youth this team has down the toilet. You may be in favor of that. I am not.
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I really like this team, but if Marcin Gortat is available and Danny's in line to get him for a package that doesn't include any of our three star players, I feel that we have to at least consider it.
THIS
I'd give up Lee, Sully, Melo and a pick for Gortat in a heartbeat. I love Sully, but Gortat is clearly a much better player right now- and we are gunning for banner 18 THIS year
Getting Marcin Gortat in no way guarantees us a trip to the Finals. We almost beat Miami last year with a team that had even less big depth than we do now. Not having a center WAS NOT the reason Miami beat us last year.
Now...you could argue that there is a good chance we won't get lucky enough to reach the EC Finals without an improvement down low. Maybe we don't need a Gortat-like player to beat Miami, but we might need that player to beat the Knicks or Nets. I don't know if I agree, but that is a more reasonable position than "Gortat = Banner 18."
Also, remember the conversation people were having on these boards last year. It was either "blow it up" or "keep it together." There was some strength to the "blow it up" argument. This is a team that needs to REBUILD FOR THE FUTURE. We cannot continue to trot out Pierce and KG indefinitely, supplementing them with the Jason Terrys and Wilcoxs of the world, and expect to win a championship.
If we dump Avery Bradley and Sullinger, or one of those with Melo and future picks, we are flushing any youth this team has down the toilet. You may be in favor of that. I am not.
Marcin Gortat is 28 years old. I would consider his acquisition a move for the present as well as for the future.
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While I will say it's very much up to debate the merits of trading Avery Bradley, I do think that we all need to be realistic here.
Unless Phoenix is feeling ridiculously generous, it's going to at least take Avery Bradley, a good player with salary (Bass likely), and a sweetener like Melo, Sully or a pick to get this done.
Gortat is a legitimate NBA center averaging 11, 9, and 2.5 this season. And he's arguably being underused in Phoenix right now.
You don't get a player like him by giving up a package of role players and second round picks.
Personally, I'd do it. As others have pointed out, Gortat is only 28, so he's going to be good for at least 5 more years (and likely more). With he and Rondo secured, we'd have the two toughest positions to get quality players covered.
I'd really miss Bradley, but you have to give up something to get something.
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People wanna say we are overrating AB while they sit there and act like giving up our best defensive player for a backup center guarantees us a trip to the finals. How ironic is that.
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People wanna say we are overrating AB while they sit there and act like giving up our best defensive player for a backup center guarantees us a trip to the finals. How ironic is that.
Gortat isn't a backup center. You get him, start him and move KG to his original spot at 4. Now, you have two guys in your lineup that can actually rebound and you don't give away a gazillion of extra possessions in every single game.
No irony I can see.
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It wasn't Wade that killed the Celtics in the playoffs. It was the return of Bosh that forced KG away from the paint on defense. If there was another big down there that could close the lane for Lebron while still fitting into the offense, that is a huge bonus.
More like Bosh, Battier, and Chalmers hitting 3's. Gortat does nothing to fix that.
Yes he does. When you have a legit 7 footer protecting the paint, your perimeter players can play tighter on their men since they have backup if they are beat off the dribble.
Also, Miami would be hard pressed to be starting their small ball lineup if they have to defend Garnett and Gortat in the paint and the Celtics decided to pound it. Might cause them to play their wings and guards less and Joel Anthony more.
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People wanna say we are overrating AB while they sit there and act like giving up our best defensive player for a backup center guarantees us a trip to the finals. How ironic is that.
Gortat isn't a backup center. You get him, start him and move KG to his original spot at 4. Now, you have two guys in your lineup that can actually rebound and you don't give away a gazillion of extra possessions in every single game.
No irony I can see.
Ok so, move KG back to the 4 *Where hes not as effective not anymore* and trade our best defensive player for gortat. Irony irony irony.
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It wasn't Wade that killed the Celtics in the playoffs. It was the return of Bosh that forced KG away from the paint on defense. If there was another big down there that could close the lane for Lebron while still fitting into the offense, that is a huge bonus.
More like Bosh, Battier, and Chalmers hitting 3's. Gortat does nothing to fix that.
Yes he does. When you have a legit 7 footer protecting the paint, your perimeter players can play tighter on their men since they have backup if they are beat off the dribble.
Also, Miami would be hard pressed to be starting their small ball lineup if they have to defend Garnett and Gortat in the paint and the Celtics decided to pound it. Might cause them to play their wings and guards less and Joel Anthony more.
I don't agree.
Miami wins that matchup to me for 2 reasons:
1) Garnett would be guarding LeBron, or Battier, LeBron he can't stay in front of, Battier he has to guard on the perimeter. Both options are bad, because it really hurts Garnett's ability to be a help defender, which is the single biggest advantage we have defensively against...everyone. Gortat isn't much more than an adequate help defender, so when Miami trots out Joel Anthony to be their help defender, they can hide him on offense without allowing one of the best help defenders in the world, the entire world, to help everytime LeBron and Wade, two of the best dribble penetrators decide to go for a stroll in the paint.
2) LeBron can defend the current incarnation of Garnett much, much easier than Garnett could possibly defend LeBron.
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It wasn't Wade that killed the Celtics in the playoffs. It was the return of Bosh that forced KG away from the paint on defense. If there was another big down there that could close the lane for Lebron while still fitting into the offense, that is a huge bonus.
More like Bosh, Battier, and Chalmers hitting 3's. Gortat does nothing to fix that.
Yes he does. When you have a legit 7 footer protecting the paint, your perimeter players can play tighter on their men since they have backup if they are beat off the dribble.
Also, Miami would be hard pressed to be starting their small ball lineup if they have to defend Garnett and Gortat in the paint and the Celtics decided to pound it. Might cause them to play their wings and guards less and Joel Anthony more.
LeBron can easily defend Gortat. As can Rashard Lewis. Gortat is a limited shot-creator. Not a strong enough offensive player to force Miami away from their small-ball lineup.
If Spoelstra panics and makes a misguided decision to go away from his small-ball lineup in order to matchup against Marcin Gortat, he is a bloody idiot. Miami loses a lot more than it gains by going big to match-up against Boston in that scenario.
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With the whole Miami debate, keep in mind that the C's could still play KG at the 5 spot a lot even with Gortat. Start them both, take KG out after 5 minutes, bring him back in for Gortat towards the end of the first quarter. For the rest of the game, we could largely alternate them back and forth at the 5 spot playing the likes of Green, Wilcox, and Sully/Bass (whoever is left) at the 4 spot.
Even if playing them together is the death sentence that some make it out to be, I'd still be rather pleased with having KG play 28 minutes and Gortat 20 (though you could likely play them together when LeBron sits). The C's always have a rebounder, shot blocker, and post threat on the floor then.
Then Gortat is there for other series like if we play LA or if Bynum ever gets healthy in Philly.
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It wasn't Wade that killed the Celtics in the playoffs. It was the return of Bosh that forced KG away from the paint on defense. If there was another big down there that could close the lane for Lebron while still fitting into the offense, that is a huge bonus.
More like Bosh, Battier, and Chalmers hitting 3's. Gortat does nothing to fix that.
Yes he does. When you have a legit 7 footer protecting the paint, your perimeter players can play tighter on their men since they have backup if they are beat off the dribble.
Also, Miami would be hard pressed to be starting their small ball lineup if they have to defend Garnett and Gortat in the paint and the Celtics decided to pound it. Might cause them to play their wings and guards less and Joel Anthony more.
I don't agree.
Miami wins that matchup to me for 2 reasons:
1) Garnett would be guarding LeBron, or Battier, LeBron he can't stay in front of, Battier he has to guard on the perimeter. Both options are bad, because it really hurts Garnett's ability to be a help defender, which is the single biggest advantage we have defensively against...everyone. Gortat isn't much more than an adequate help defender, so when Miami trots out Joel Anthony to be their help defender, they can hide him on offense without allowing one of the best help defenders in the world, the entire world, to help everytime LeBron and Wade, two of the best dribble penetrators decide to go for a stroll in the paint.
2) LeBron can defend the current incarnation of Garnett much, much easier than Garnett could possibly defend LeBron.
The pick and roll would be very hard for Miami to stop without any rim protection though. Rondo at the top of the key with a double pick from Gortat and Kg would be incredibly difficult to defend. Gortat rolls. KG pops. Go under and Rondo is shooting and he is knocking that shot down ever since the ECF. Go over and Rondo is at the hoop. Pierce and Terry on the perimeter keeping guys honest as well.
We basically incorporate a lot more zone and force James and Wade to hit shots. We get almost anything at the rim on offense. We also likely dominate the boards and slow the game down with more points in the paint.
Have you seem the Heat's Defense? It's not as good. The combination of small ball and the fact that Ray Allen and Reshard Lewis aren't good fits in their defensive system have hurt them a lot.
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It wasn't Wade that killed the Celtics in the playoffs. It was the return of Bosh that forced KG away from the paint on defense. If there was another big down there that could close the lane for Lebron while still fitting into the offense, that is a huge bonus.
More like Bosh, Battier, and Chalmers hitting 3's. Gortat does nothing to fix that.
Yes he does. When you have a legit 7 footer protecting the paint, your perimeter players can play tighter on their men since they have backup if they are beat off the dribble.
Also, Miami would be hard pressed to be starting their small ball lineup if they have to defend Garnett and Gortat in the paint and the Celtics decided to pound it. Might cause them to play their wings and guards less and Joel Anthony more.
LeBron can easily defend Gortat. As can Rashard Lewis. Gortat is a limited shot-creator. Not a strong enough offensive player to force Miami away from their small-ball lineup.
If Spoelstra panics and makes a misguided decision to go away from his small-ball lineup in order to matchup against Marcin Gortat, he is a bloody idiot. Miami loses a lot more than it gains by going big to match-up against Boston in that scenario.
Neither Lewis or James will out rebound him. If James is defending Gortat then KG is pulling Bosh away from the basket and out of rebounding position. Boarding over Gortat is much more difficult then boarding over Pierce or Green.
Lewis has no chance of defending a pick and roll with Rondo and Gortat. His lateral quickness is gone and Miami lacks the bigs to play pick and roll well. No one really creates shots on the Celtics any more. It's all Rondo. Pierce off picks and pin-downs. KG pick and roll. It's why Terry and Lee have struggled a bit. They were used to having the ball in their hands more. Especially Jet b/c he as mostly pick and roll with Dirk.
Were not going to throw Gortat the ball on the block and say go to work. He will play off Rondo like the rest of the roster.
If Miami can't out-rebound us and we are getting second chance points, points in the paint, and lots of points at the rim due to their lack of shot blocking then they will no longer go small.
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It wasn't Wade that killed the Celtics in the playoffs. It was the return of Bosh that forced KG away from the paint on defense. If there was another big down there that could close the lane for Lebron while still fitting into the offense, that is a huge bonus.
More like Bosh, Battier, and Chalmers hitting 3's. Gortat does nothing to fix that.
Yes he does. When you have a legit 7 footer protecting the paint, your perimeter players can play tighter on their men since they have backup if they are beat off the dribble.
Also, Miami would be hard pressed to be starting their small ball lineup if they have to defend Garnett and Gortat in the paint and the Celtics decided to pound it. Might cause them to play their wings and guards less and Joel Anthony more.
LeBron can easily defend Gortat. As can Rashard Lewis. Gortat is a limited shot-creator. Not a strong enough offensive player to force Miami away from their small-ball lineup.
If Spoelstra panics and makes a misguided decision to go away from his small-ball lineup in order to matchup against Marcin Gortat, he is a bloody idiot. Miami loses a lot more than it gains by going big to match-up against Boston in that scenario.
Neither Lewis or James will out rebound him. If James is defending Gortat then KG is pulling Bosh away from the basket and out of rebounding position. Boarding over Gortat is much more difficult then boarding over Pierce or Green.
Lewis has no chance of defending a pick and roll with Rondo and Gortat. His lateral quickness is gone and Miami lacks the bigs to play pick and roll well. No one really creates shots on the Celtics any more. It's all Rondo. Pierce off picks and pin-downs. KG pick and roll. It's why Terry and Lee have struggled a bit. They were used to having the ball in their hands more. Especially Jet b/c he as mostly pick and roll with Dirk.
Were not going to throw Gortat the ball on the block and say go to work. He will play off Rondo like the rest of the roster.
If Miami can't out-rebound us and we are getting second chance points, points in the paint, and lots of points at the rim due to their lack of shot blocking then they will no longer go small.
LeBron will out-rebound Gortat. He is stronger, quicker and more agile than Gortat. Gortat has solid size/length but not overwhelming size/length. LeBron will be able to box-out Gortat effectively on the defensive glass. And on the other end of the floor, Miami's shooters will pull Gortat (or KG) away from the boards. LeBron will out-rebound Gortat.
Rashard Lewis will not be able to out-rebound. Again, Rashard will be able to effectively box Gortat out on defensive glass. Rashard Lewis will defend Gortat almost as well as Joel Anthony would and do so without Miami having to sacrifice it's offensive effectiveness.
This is not a matchup problem for Miami. This is a matchup advantage for them.
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It wasn't Wade that killed the Celtics in the playoffs. It was the return of Bosh that forced KG away from the paint on defense. If there was another big down there that could close the lane for Lebron while still fitting into the offense, that is a huge bonus.
More like Bosh, Battier, and Chalmers hitting 3's. Gortat does nothing to fix that.
Yes he does. When you have a legit 7 footer protecting the paint, your perimeter players can play tighter on their men since they have backup if they are beat off the dribble.
Also, Miami would be hard pressed to be starting their small ball lineup if they have to defend Garnett and Gortat in the paint and the Celtics decided to pound it. Might cause them to play their wings and guards less and Joel Anthony more.
I don't agree.
Miami wins that matchup to me for 2 reasons:
1) Garnett would be guarding LeBron, or Battier, LeBron he can't stay in front of, Battier he has to guard on the perimeter. Both options are bad, because it really hurts Garnett's ability to be a help defender, which is the single biggest advantage we have defensively against...everyone. Gortat isn't much more than an adequate help defender, so when Miami trots out Joel Anthony to be their help defender, they can hide him on offense without allowing one of the best help defenders in the world, the entire world, to help everytime LeBron and Wade, two of the best dribble penetrators decide to go for a stroll in the paint.
2) LeBron can defend the current incarnation of Garnett much, much easier than Garnett could possibly defend LeBron.
The pick and roll would be very hard for Miami to stop without any rim protection though. Rondo at the top of the key with a double pick from Gortat and Kg would be incredibly difficult to defend. Gortat rolls. KG pops. Go under and Rondo is shooting and he is knocking that shot down ever since the ECF. Go over and Rondo is at the hoop. Pierce and Terry on the perimeter keeping guys honest as well.
We basically incorporate a lot more zone and force James and Wade to hit shots. We get almost anything at the rim on offense. We also likely dominate the boards and slow the game down with more points in the paint.
Have you seem the Heat's Defense? It's not as good. The combination of small ball and the fact that Ray Allen and Reshard Lewis aren't good fits in their defensive system have hurt them a lot.
I think offensively you're on to something, in that Gortat would work very well with our P&R, but your idea about going zone, I don't buy it. People have been trying for years to use the zone to force Wade and LeBron into shooting jumpers. Its never worked consistently. You need an athletic versatile defender to make life tough for LeBron, and you hope Wade or Bosh aren't enough to beat you.
Garnett is athletic and versatile, but he's not athletic or versatile enough to defend LeBron, and Gortat isn't good enough to D up Bosh.
I'm not arguing that Gortat could help us on offense. I just don't think he'd be a huge help against the Heat. He'd make us a better team, just likely wouldn't work out against the Heat.
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It wasn't Wade that killed the Celtics in the playoffs. It was the return of Bosh that forced KG away from the paint on defense. If there was another big down there that could close the lane for Lebron while still fitting into the offense, that is a huge bonus.
More like Bosh, Battier, and Chalmers hitting 3's. Gortat does nothing to fix that.
Yes he does. When you have a legit 7 footer protecting the paint, your perimeter players can play tighter on their men since they have backup if they are beat off the dribble.
Also, Miami would be hard pressed to be starting their small ball lineup if they have to defend Garnett and Gortat in the paint and the Celtics decided to pound it. Might cause them to play their wings and guards less and Joel Anthony more.
I don't agree.
Miami wins that matchup to me for 2 reasons:
1) Garnett would be guarding LeBron, or Battier, LeBron he can't stay in front of, Battier he has to guard on the perimeter. Both options are bad, because it really hurts Garnett's ability to be a help defender, which is the single biggest advantage we have defensively against...everyone. Gortat isn't much more than an adequate help defender, so when Miami trots out Joel Anthony to be their help defender, they can hide him on offense without allowing one of the best help defenders in the world, the entire world, to help everytime LeBron and Wade, two of the best dribble penetrators decide to go for a stroll in the paint.
2) LeBron can defend the current incarnation of Garnett much, much easier than Garnett could possibly defend LeBron.
1) I think Marcin Gortat is a much better help defender and rim protector than you give him credit for. This would give Garnett more freedom to roam as a power forward. If Miami is playing with James and Battier as their 3 and 4, I would put Garnett on Battier and Pierce on James. Garnett can cover Battier out at the 3 point line and still help out in the paint. This is what makes him the best help defender in the world.
2) I'm sure that's true. That's the case for every player in the NBA matched up against Lebron James regardless of natural position. James is by far the best player in the league. That said, KG represents a tougher matchup for James than most. He has a hard time matching up with KG inside. The Celtics went to post plays and pick and roll plays with Rondo and Garnett with a lot of success in last year's ECF. Miami had a really hard time dealing with Garnett.
If we had a center of Gortat's size and ability we could maximize our size advantage against the likes of Miami. Going small ball would mean playing KG at center. This would give us so much more versatility in matching up with all teams in the league, not just the Heat.
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No one really creates shots on the Celtics any more. It's all Rondo. Pierce off picks and pin-downs. KG pick and roll. It's why Terry and Lee have struggled a bit. They were used to having the ball in their hands more. Especially Jet b/c he as mostly pick and roll with Dirk.
Rondo, Pierce, Garnett, Terry, Barbosa and Jeff Green are capable to very strong shot-creators. Sullinger may also become a good shot-creator as the season progress. We'll have to wait and see on Sully.
Bradley (cutter, spot up, transition), Bass (spot up shooter mostly), Wilcox (finisher around the rim, transition) and Lee (spot up shooter, transition) are limited shot-creators. Gortat would be another limited shot-creator (finisher around the basket). Jason Collins a non-shot-creator.
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It wasn't Wade that killed the Celtics in the playoffs. It was the return of Bosh that forced KG away from the paint on defense. If there was another big down there that could close the lane for Lebron while still fitting into the offense, that is a huge bonus.
More like Bosh, Battier, and Chalmers hitting 3's. Gortat does nothing to fix that.
Yes he does. When you have a legit 7 footer protecting the paint, your perimeter players can play tighter on their men since they have backup if they are beat off the dribble.
Also, Miami would be hard pressed to be starting their small ball lineup if they have to defend Garnett and Gortat in the paint and the Celtics decided to pound it. Might cause them to play their wings and guards less and Joel Anthony more.
I don't agree.
Miami wins that matchup to me for 2 reasons:
1) Garnett would be guarding LeBron, or Battier, LeBron he can't stay in front of, Battier he has to guard on the perimeter. Both options are bad, because it really hurts Garnett's ability to be a help defender, which is the single biggest advantage we have defensively against...everyone. Gortat isn't much more than an adequate help defender, so when Miami trots out Joel Anthony to be their help defender, they can hide him on offense without allowing one of the best help defenders in the world, the entire world, to help everytime LeBron and Wade, two of the best dribble penetrators decide to go for a stroll in the paint.
2) LeBron can defend the current incarnation of Garnett much, much easier than Garnett could possibly defend LeBron.
The pick and roll would be very hard for Miami to stop without any rim protection though. Rondo at the top of the key with a double pick from Gortat and Kg would be incredibly difficult to defend. Gortat rolls. KG pops. Go under and Rondo is shooting and he is knocking that shot down ever since the ECF. Go over and Rondo is at the hoop. Pierce and Terry on the perimeter keeping guys honest as well.
We basically incorporate a lot more zone and force James and Wade to hit shots. We get almost anything at the rim on offense. We also likely dominate the boards and slow the game down with more points in the paint.
Have you seem the Heat's Defense? It's not as good. The combination of small ball and the fact that Ray Allen and Reshard Lewis aren't good fits in their defensive system have hurt them a lot.
I think offensively you're on to something, in that Gortat would work very well with our P&R, but your idea about going zone, I don't buy it. People have been trying for years to use the zone to force Wade and LeBron into shooting jumpers. Its never worked consistently. You need an athletic versatile defender to make life tough for LeBron, and you hope Wade or Bosh aren't enough to beat you.
Garnett is athletic and versatile, but he's not athletic or versatile enough to defend LeBron, and Gortat isn't good enough to D up Bosh.
I'm not arguing that Gortat could help us on offense. I just don't think he'd be a huge help against the Heat. He'd make us a better team, just likely wouldn't work out against the Heat.
Garnett is a superior man-to-man defender against Bosh than Gortat is + a superior team defender off of Bosh than Gortat is.
Garnett will defend Chris Bosh. Gortat will defend Shane Battier or Rashard Lewis. Paul Pierce will stay on LeBron James.
Having Gortat defend Bosh and Garnett defend a three point shooter is the lesser defensive option. Garnett is needed on Bosh and is too valuable defensively to be wasted on a stand still shooter in the corner.
Gortat will not be in a position to provide interior defense and/or defensive rebounding while defending a three point shooter like Shane Battier or Rashard Lewis. I have never seen Gortat try to defend a three point shooter but I am guessing he's going to struggle with it since most bigs of his ilk do.
Gortat will be a valuable interior defender/rebounder (1) while Garnett rests, and, (2) if Spoelstra is dumb enough to go big against Boston, in which case, Gortat will be a game-changing weapon.
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It wasn't Wade that killed the Celtics in the playoffs. It was the return of Bosh that forced KG away from the paint on defense. If there was another big down there that could close the lane for Lebron while still fitting into the offense, that is a huge bonus.
More like Bosh, Battier, and Chalmers hitting 3's. Gortat does nothing to fix that.
Yes he does. When you have a legit 7 footer protecting the paint, your perimeter players can play tighter on their men since they have backup if they are beat off the dribble.
Also, Miami would be hard pressed to be starting their small ball lineup if they have to defend Garnett and Gortat in the paint and the Celtics decided to pound it. Might cause them to play their wings and guards less and Joel Anthony more.
I don't agree.
Miami wins that matchup to me for 2 reasons:
1) Garnett would be guarding LeBron, or Battier, LeBron he can't stay in front of, Battier he has to guard on the perimeter. Both options are bad, because it really hurts Garnett's ability to be a help defender, which is the single biggest advantage we have defensively against...everyone. Gortat isn't much more than an adequate help defender, so when Miami trots out Joel Anthony to be their help defender, they can hide him on offense without allowing one of the best help defenders in the world, the entire world, to help everytime LeBron and Wade, two of the best dribble penetrators decide to go for a stroll in the paint.
2) LeBron can defend the current incarnation of Garnett much, much easier than Garnett could possibly defend LeBron.
1) I think Marcin Gortat is a much better help defender and rim protector than you give him credit for. This would give Garnett more freedom to roam as a power forward. If Miami is playing with James and Battier as their 3 and 4, I would put Garnett on Battier and Pierce on James. Garnett can cover Battier out at the 3 point line and still help out in the paint. This is what makes him the best help defender in the world.
2) I'm sure that's true. That's the case for every player in the NBA matched up against Lebron James regardless of natural position. James is by far the best player in the league. That said, KG represents a tougher matchup for James than most. He has a hard time matching up with KG inside. The Celtics went to post plays and pick and roll plays with Rondo and Garnett with a lot of success in last year's ECF. Miami had a really hard time dealing with Garnett.
If we had a center of Gortat's size and ability we could maximize our size advantage against the likes of Miami. Going small ball would mean playing KG at center. This would give us so much more versatility in matching up with all teams in the league, not just the Heat.
Why in the world would Miami put LeBron on Garnett instead of Gortat?
Garnett is one of the most highly skilled seven footers in the world. KG has a strong (if underutilized) post-game and is a brilliant passer. Gortat is a garbage man without an adequate post game and is a limited passer.
Stick LeBron on the limited offensive player and leave Bosh to defend Garnett since Bosh has proven to be their best defensive option against KG.
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I'd be interested in seeing KG defend Lebron. His size and length could pose problems for LBJ like he never really sees. KG could sag a bit more than most since he could recover to contest the jumper, and I think in that situation KG would be able to defend him pretty well.
But can Gortat defend Bosh?
In all liklihood, the C's would simply zone up.
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People wanna say we are overrating AB while they sit there and act like giving up our best defensive player for a backup center guarantees us a trip to the finals. How ironic is that.
Gortat isn't a backup center. You get him, start him and move KG to his original spot at 4. Now, you have two guys in your lineup that can actually rebound and you don't give away a gazillion of extra possessions in every single game.
No irony I can see.
Ok so, move KG back to the 4 *Where hes not as effective not anymore* and trade our best defensive player for gortat. Irony irony irony.
Zero evidence to support this. I point you to the 2011 season when we were completely dominant with KG at his natural 4 position. Don't get prickly because some of us aren't so quick to buy into the Avery Bradley hype machine.
The fact that you think he's our "best defensive player" shows how twisted things have gotten in your mind (hint: it's actually really KG ::)).
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People wanna say we are overrating AB while they sit there and act like giving up our best defensive player for a backup center guarantees us a trip to the finals. How ironic is that.
Gortat isn't a backup center. You get him, start him and move KG to his original spot at 4. Now, you have two guys in your lineup that can actually rebound and you don't give away a gazillion of extra possessions in every single game.
No irony I can see.
Ok so, move KG back to the 4 *Where hes not as effective not anymore* and trade our best defensive player for gortat. Irony irony irony.
Zero evidence to support this. I point you to the 2011 season when we were completely dominant with KG at his natural 4 position. Don't get prickly because some of us aren't so quick to buy into the Avery Bradley hype machine.
The fact that you think he's our "best defensive player" shows how twisted things have gotten in your mind (hint: it's actually really KG ::)).
There is actually a lot of evidence to support this.
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I'd be interested in seeing KG defend Lebron. His size and length could pose problems for LBJ like he never really sees. KG could sag a bit more than most since he could recover to contest the jumper, and I think in that situation KG would be able to defend him pretty well.
But can Gortat defend Bosh?
In all liklihood, the C's would simply zone up.
Doesn't anyone else remember our best defense against the Heat being the zone? With two seven footers to defend the paint, we turn Miami into jumpshooting team and even more effectively than we did last year. Their shots get taken away from the basket while we pound the ball down low and have Gortat and Garnett shoot straight over their defenders. That plus the fact that the rebound battle is ours for the taking gives us a better chance to win than having ANOTHER body to throw at Wade when Lee, Rondo and Barbosa should be more than capable of limiting him enough.
I keep saying it but what Bradley brings to the table is not going to be enough to change the makeup of this team. We're either title ready now with Bradley giving us a slightly stronger edge in dribble penetration (and that's really the only BIG plus he brings that we cant get from our other guards) OR we aren't title ready and need to make a big improvement to our rebounding and interior presence and thus the need for a player like Gortat to take this team from where it is now to being title ready.
If you honestly believe we are title ready as constructed, more power to you but when I see us give up so many 2nd chance points while getting none for ourselves, my mind thinks different.
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It wasn't Wade that killed the Celtics in the playoffs. It was the return of Bosh that forced KG away from the paint on defense. If there was another big down there that could close the lane for Lebron while still fitting into the offense, that is a huge bonus.
More like Bosh, Battier, and Chalmers hitting 3's. Gortat does nothing to fix that.
Yes he does. When you have a legit 7 footer protecting the paint, your perimeter players can play tighter on their men since they have backup if they are beat off the dribble.
Also, Miami would be hard pressed to be starting their small ball lineup if they have to defend Garnett and Gortat in the paint and the Celtics decided to pound it. Might cause them to play their wings and guards less and Joel Anthony more.
I don't agree.
Miami wins that matchup to me for 2 reasons:
1) Garnett would be guarding LeBron, or Battier, LeBron he can't stay in front of, Battier he has to guard on the perimeter. Both options are bad, because it really hurts Garnett's ability to be a help defender, which is the single biggest advantage we have defensively against...everyone. Gortat isn't much more than an adequate help defender, so when Miami trots out Joel Anthony to be their help defender, they can hide him on offense without allowing one of the best help defenders in the world, the entire world, to help everytime LeBron and Wade, two of the best dribble penetrators decide to go for a stroll in the paint.
2) LeBron can defend the current incarnation of Garnett much, much easier than Garnett could possibly defend LeBron.
1) I think Marcin Gortat is a much better help defender and rim protector than you give him credit for. This would give Garnett more freedom to roam as a power forward. If Miami is playing with James and Battier as their 3 and 4, I would put Garnett on Battier and Pierce on James. Garnett can cover Battier out at the 3 point line and still help out in the paint. This is what makes him the best help defender in the world.
2) I'm sure that's true. That's the case for every player in the NBA matched up against Lebron James regardless of natural position. James is by far the best player in the league. That said, KG represents a tougher matchup for James than most. He has a hard time matching up with KG inside. The Celtics went to post plays and pick and roll plays with Rondo and Garnett with a lot of success in last year's ECF. Miami had a really hard time dealing with Garnett.
If we had a center of Gortat's size and ability we could maximize our size advantage against the likes of Miami. Going small ball would mean playing KG at center. This would give us so much more versatility in matching up with all teams in the league, not just the Heat.
Why in the world would Miami put LeBron on Garnett instead of Gortat?
Garnett is one of the most highly skilled seven footers in the world. KG has a strong (if underutilized) post-game and is a brilliant passer. Gortat is a garbage man without an adequate post game and is a limited passer.
Stick LeBron on the limited offensive player and leave Bosh to defend Garnett since Bosh has proven to be their best defensive option against KG.
Miami would have no chance against the pick and roll play if they did that. Lebron James can do a lot of things, but he can't guard legitimate centers.
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People wanna say we are overrating AB while they sit there and act like giving up our best defensive player for a backup center guarantees us a trip to the finals. How ironic is that.
Gortat isn't a backup center. You get him, start him and move KG to his original spot at 4. Now, you have two guys in your lineup that can actually rebound and you don't give away a gazillion of extra possessions in every single game.
No irony I can see.
Ok so, move KG back to the 4 *Where hes not as effective not anymore* and trade our best defensive player for gortat. Irony irony irony.
Zero evidence to support this. I point you to the 2011 season when we were completely dominant with KG at his natural 4 position. Don't get prickly because some of us aren't so quick to buy into the Avery Bradley hype machine.
The fact that you think he's our "best defensive player" shows how twisted things have gotten in your mind (hint: it's actually really KG ::)).
There is actually a lot of evidence to support this.
pssst, this is the part where you are supposed to provide it
And again, I'll simply point to 2008, 2010 and 2011 when Garnett, even coming off an injury, anchored this team at the 4 spot and helped us play our BEST basketball of the Big 3 era. Just because he had a statistically good year playing out of position at the 5 does not mean he can't "effectively" play his natural position after just half a season away from it -- revisionist history at its best!
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I'd be interested in seeing KG defend Lebron. His size and length could pose problems for LBJ like he never really sees. KG could sag a bit more than most since he could recover to contest the jumper, and I think in that situation KG would be able to defend him pretty well.
But can Gortat defend Bosh?
In all liklihood, the C's would simply zone up.
Doesn't anyone else remember our best defense against the Heat being the zone? With two seven footers to defend the paint, we turn Miami into jumpshooting team and even more effectively than we did last year. Their shots get taken away from the basket while we pound the ball down low and have Gortat and Garnett shoot straight over their defenders. That plus the fact that the rebound battle is ours for the taking gives us a better chance to win than having ANOTHER body to throw at Wade when Lee, Rondo and Barbosa should be more than capable of limiting him enough.
I keep saying it but what Bradley brings to the table is not going to be enough to change the makeup of this team. We're either title ready now with Bradley giving us a slightly stronger edge in dribble penetration (and that's really the only BIG plus he brings that we cant get from our other guards) OR we aren't title ready and need to make a big improvement to our rebounding and interior presence and thus the need for a player like Gortat to take this team from where it is now to being title ready.
If you honestly believe we are title ready as constructed, more power to you but when I see us give up so many 2nd chance points while getting none for ourselves, my mind thinks different.
The zone defense was very effective against Miami when they were playing with two big men (Bosh + Haslem/Anthony/whoever + 2 slashers in Wade/LeBron) ... but it won't be anywhere near as useful now that Miami has gone small and has spaced out the floor with multiple jump-shooters.
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People wanna say we are overrating AB while they sit there and act like giving up our best defensive player for a backup center guarantees us a trip to the finals. How ironic is that.
Gortat isn't a backup center. You get him, start him and move KG to his original spot at 4. Now, you have two guys in your lineup that can actually rebound and you don't give away a gazillion of extra possessions in every single game.
No irony I can see.
Ok so, move KG back to the 4 *Where hes not as effective not anymore* and trade our best defensive player for gortat. Irony irony irony.
Zero evidence to support this. I point you to the 2011 season when we were completely dominant with KG at his natural 4 position. Don't get prickly because some of us aren't so quick to buy into the Avery Bradley hype machine.
The fact that you think he's our "best defensive player" shows how twisted things have gotten in your mind (hint: it's actually really KG ::)).
There is actually a lot of evidence to support this.
Please provide it.
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I'd be interested in seeing KG defend Lebron. His size and length could pose problems for LBJ like he never really sees. KG could sag a bit more than most since he could recover to contest the jumper, and I think in that situation KG would be able to defend him pretty well.
But can Gortat defend Bosh?
In all liklihood, the C's would simply zone up.
Doesn't anyone else remember our best defense against the Heat being the zone? With two seven footers to defend the paint, we turn Miami into jumpshooting team and even more effectively than we did last year. Their shots get taken away from the basket while we pound the ball down low and have Gortat and Garnett shoot straight over their defenders. That plus the fact that the rebound battle is ours for the taking gives us a better chance to win than having ANOTHER body to throw at Wade when Lee, Rondo and Barbosa should be more than capable of limiting him enough.
I keep saying it but what Bradley brings to the table is not going to be enough to change the makeup of this team. We're either title ready now with Bradley giving us a slightly stronger edge in dribble penetration (and that's really the only BIG plus he brings that we cant get from our other guards) OR we aren't title ready and need to make a big improvement to our rebounding and interior presence and thus the need for a player like Gortat to take this team from where it is now to being title ready.
If you honestly believe we are title ready as constructed, more power to you but when I see us give up so many 2nd chance points while getting none for ourselves, my mind thinks different.
The zone defense was very effective against Miami when they were playing with two big men (Bosh + Haslem/Anthony/whoever) ... it won't be anywhere near as useful now that Miami has gone small and has spaced out the floor with multiple shooters.
Miami is not jumpshooting their way to a title. Sorry, it just ain't happening. High percentage basketball necessitates scoring points in the paint. I'll take two guys shooting 4 feet away from the basket over smaller defenders every day to a bunch of shooting specialist taking shots 20+ feet away from the basket over guards who can play good defense. The point of the game is to keep them away from the rack and that's what inside presence is for plus it makes 2nd chance points far less likely as the only rebounds they should be getting are the long ones.
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People wanna say we are overrating AB while they sit there and act like giving up our best defensive player for a backup center guarantees us a trip to the finals. How ironic is that.
Gortat isn't a backup center. You get him, start him and move KG to his original spot at 4. Now, you have two guys in your lineup that can actually rebound and you don't give away a gazillion of extra possessions in every single game.
No irony I can see.
Ok so, move KG back to the 4 *Where hes not as effective not anymore* and trade our best defensive player for gortat. Irony irony irony.
Zero evidence to support this. I point you to the 2011 season when we were completely dominant with KG at his natural 4 position. Don't get prickly because some of us aren't so quick to buy into the Avery Bradley hype machine.
The fact that you think he's our "best defensive player" shows how twisted things have gotten in your mind (hint: it's actually really KG ::)).
There is actually a lot of evidence to support this.
You beat me to it ^ And is suggesting bradley as our best defensive player really that far fetched? At worst hes our second best. KG is the anchor of our defense but hes getting up there in years. AB, obviously, can bring that defensive energy for longer stretches of time.
Its really funny to me because im not saying anything about bradley that is ridiculous. Everything im saying can be backed by numbers and actually watching the games and paying attention. Not once did i say bradley is a star. Not once did i say hes MJ ::)
Not once did i say hes some offensive force. I said hes elite on defense and one of the best defenders in the league. I said our team was one of the best in the league once ab was inserted into the starting lineup and KG moved to center. Is what im saying hype, OR FACT.
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(1) Garnett is still a really good player at the power forward position. He is a top ten PF. There was some drop-off there as a defender/rebounder due to his declining athlecism but he was and is still one of the best defenders in the league at that position + there was some drop-off offensively but he was still a very potent weapon.
(2) Garnett was and is even better at center where KG was the 2nd best center in the league last year ... because (a) his skill level offensively created more difficult matchups for opponents (b) defensively, Garnett was matched up against slower and less able offensive threats and was situated closer to the basket and more able to provide effective team defense.
(3) I prefer Garnett to play the five than the four but I am perfectly happy switching him back to the four if Boston is able to acquire a quality center. Gortat would certainly fill that requirement.
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People wanna say we are overrating AB while they sit there and act like giving up our best defensive player for a backup center guarantees us a trip to the finals. How ironic is that.
Gortat isn't a backup center. You get him, start him and move KG to his original spot at 4. Now, you have two guys in your lineup that can actually rebound and you don't give away a gazillion of extra possessions in every single game.
No irony I can see.
Ok so, move KG back to the 4 *Where hes not as effective not anymore* and trade our best defensive player for gortat. Irony irony irony.
Zero evidence to support this. I point you to the 2011 season when we were completely dominant with KG at his natural 4 position. Don't get prickly because some of us aren't so quick to buy into the Avery Bradley hype machine.
The fact that you think he's our "best defensive player" shows how twisted things have gotten in your mind (hint: it's actually really KG ::)).
There is actually a lot of evidence to support this.
Please provide it.
Well, here is an easy one:
http://www.82games.com/1112/11BOS13.HTM#bypos
It shows Garnett's stats while at the 4 compared to his production at the 5. And those are mostly offensive numbers. That's not even touching his impact on defense at the 5 (where typically teams hide their least effective offensive weapon, allowing Garnett to roam).
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People wanna say we are overrating AB while they sit there and act like giving up our best defensive player for a backup center guarantees us a trip to the finals. How ironic is that.
Gortat isn't a backup center. You get him, start him and move KG to his original spot at 4. Now, you have two guys in your lineup that can actually rebound and you don't give away a gazillion of extra possessions in every single game.
No irony I can see.
Ok so, move KG back to the 4 *Where hes not as effective not anymore* and trade our best defensive player for gortat. Irony irony irony.
Zero evidence to support this. I point you to the 2011 season when we were completely dominant with KG at his natural 4 position. Don't get prickly because some of us aren't so quick to buy into the Avery Bradley hype machine.
The fact that you think he's our "best defensive player" shows how twisted things have gotten in your mind (hint: it's actually really KG ::)).
There is actually a lot of evidence to support this.
Please provide it.
Well, here is an easy one:
http://www.82games.com/1112/11BOS13.HTM#bypos
It shows Garnett's stats while at the 4 compared to his production at the 5. And those are mostly offensive numbers. That's not even touching his impact on defense at the 5 (where typically teams hide their least effective offensive weapon, allowing Garnett to roam).
Actually those numbers do attempt to make a claim about his defense at each position. If I have read them correctly, it looks like he was more effective defensively at the four. Opposing fours had a lower PER against him, and his DRating was better at the four.
I know there is a lot of noise and room for interpretation with those stats, but they don't really conclusively prove that he's no longer effective as a power forward. Your evidence is flimsy at best.
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People wanna say we are overrating AB while they sit there and act like giving up our best defensive player for a backup center guarantees us a trip to the finals. How ironic is that.
Gortat isn't a backup center. You get him, start him and move KG to his original spot at 4. Now, you have two guys in your lineup that can actually rebound and you don't give away a gazillion of extra possessions in every single game.
No irony I can see.
Ok so, move KG back to the 4 *Where hes not as effective not anymore* and trade our best defensive player for gortat. Irony irony irony.
Zero evidence to support this. I point you to the 2011 season when we were completely dominant with KG at his natural 4 position. Don't get prickly because some of us aren't so quick to buy into the Avery Bradley hype machine.
The fact that you think he's our "best defensive player" shows how twisted things have gotten in your mind (hint: it's actually really KG ::)).
There is actually a lot of evidence to support this.
Please provide it.
Well, here is an easy one:
http://www.82games.com/1112/11BOS13.HTM#bypos
It shows Garnett's stats while at the 4 compared to his production at the 5. And those are mostly offensive numbers. That's not even touching his impact on defense at the 5 (where typically teams hide their least effective offensive weapon, allowing Garnett to roam).
2 of our top 5 units that year included KG at PF. And this is when we had JERMAINE ONEAL anchoring our defense at C. Outside of being forced to do a little more of the stat padding dirty work, KG at the 4 is equally as effective to KG at the 5 with the added benefit of keeping him fresher and at a the position he is naturally more comfortable playing. And again, that sample size is over a half a season in a lockout shortened season when ALL our guys came back to start the year out of shape. Like I said, there is no evidence to show KG "is not effective anymore" at is natural 4 spot because he had a slightly better PER playing (gasp) closer to the basket!
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People wanna say we are overrating AB while they sit there and act like giving up our best defensive player for a backup center guarantees us a trip to the finals. How ironic is that.
Gortat isn't a backup center. You get him, start him and move KG to his original spot at 4. Now, you have two guys in your lineup that can actually rebound and you don't give away a gazillion of extra possessions in every single game.
No irony I can see.
Ok so, move KG back to the 4 *Where hes not as effective not anymore* and trade our best defensive player for gortat. Irony irony irony.
Zero evidence to support this. I point you to the 2011 season when we were completely dominant with KG at his natural 4 position. Don't get prickly because some of us aren't so quick to buy into the Avery Bradley hype machine.
The fact that you think he's our "best defensive player" shows how twisted things have gotten in your mind (hint: it's actually really KG ::)).
There is actually a lot of evidence to support this.
Please provide it.
Well, here is an easy one:
http://www.82games.com/1112/11BOS13.HTM#bypos
It shows Garnett's stats while at the 4 compared to his production at the 5. And those are mostly offensive numbers. That's not even touching his impact on defense at the 5 (where typically teams hide their least effective offensive weapon, allowing Garnett to roam).
Actually those numbers do attempt to make a claim about his defense at each position. If I have read them correctly, it looks like he was more effective defensively at the four. Opposing fours had a lower PER against him, and his DRating was better at the four.
I know there is a lot of noise and room for interpretation with those stats, but they don't really conclusively prove that he's no longer effective as a power forward. Your evidence is flimsy at best.
Whoa whoa whoa, I never ever said he was no longer effective at the 4. I stated that there is evidence that he is more effective at the 5. That doesn't mean he can't play the 4 or anything.
And its not flimsy, but to answer your counterpoint, his DRTG is lower as a 4, but the offense ran so much better that the team was more effective. You can see that in the point differential, you can see that in the fact that he outscores individual opponents by more as a 5, and the team outscores opponents more when he's at the 5.
Its not flimsy evidence.
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People wanna say we are overrating AB while they sit there and act like giving up our best defensive player for a backup center guarantees us a trip to the finals. How ironic is that.
Gortat isn't a backup center. You get him, start him and move KG to his original spot at 4. Now, you have two guys in your lineup that can actually rebound and you don't give away a gazillion of extra possessions in every single game.
No irony I can see.
Ok so, move KG back to the 4 *Where hes not as effective not anymore* and trade our best defensive player for gortat. Irony irony irony.
Zero evidence to support this. I point you to the 2011 season when we were completely dominant with KG at his natural 4 position. Don't get prickly because some of us aren't so quick to buy into the Avery Bradley hype machine.
The fact that you think he's our "best defensive player" shows how twisted things have gotten in your mind (hint: it's actually really KG ::)).
There is actually a lot of evidence to support this.
Please provide it.
Well, here is an easy one:
http://www.82games.com/1112/11BOS13.HTM#bypos
It shows Garnett's stats while at the 4 compared to his production at the 5. And those are mostly offensive numbers. That's not even touching his impact on defense at the 5 (where typically teams hide their least effective offensive weapon, allowing Garnett to roam).
2 of our top 5 units that year included KG at PF. And this is when we had JERMAINE ONEAL anchoring our defense at C. Outside of being forced to do a little more of the stat padding dirty work, KG at the 4 is equally as effective to KG at the 5 with the added benefit of keeping him fresher and at a the position he is naturally more comfortable playing. And again, that sample size is over a half a season in a lockout shortened season when ALL our guys came back to start the year out of shape. Like I said, there is no evidence to show KG "is not effective anymore" at is natural 4 spot because he had a slightly better PER playing (gasp) closer to the basket!
Again, I'm not stating he's not effective anymore at the 4, I'm stating he's more effective at the 5.
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People wanna say we are overrating AB while they sit there and act like giving up our best defensive player for a backup center guarantees us a trip to the finals. How ironic is that.
Gortat isn't a backup center. You get him, start him and move KG to his original spot at 4. Now, you have two guys in your lineup that can actually rebound and you don't give away a gazillion of extra possessions in every single game.
No irony I can see.
Ok so, move KG back to the 4 *Where hes not as effective not anymore* and trade our best defensive player for gortat. Irony irony irony.
Zero evidence to support this. I point you to the 2011 season when we were completely dominant with KG at his natural 4 position. Don't get prickly because some of us aren't so quick to buy into the Avery Bradley hype machine.
The fact that you think he's our "best defensive player" shows how twisted things have gotten in your mind (hint: it's actually really KG ::)).
There is actually a lot of evidence to support this.
Please provide it.
Well, here is an easy one:
http://www.82games.com/1112/11BOS13.HTM#bypos
It shows Garnett's stats while at the 4 compared to his production at the 5. And those are mostly offensive numbers. That's not even touching his impact on defense at the 5 (where typically teams hide their least effective offensive weapon, allowing Garnett to roam).
I didn't look at that link in depth, but I just want to point out something before you read too deeply into those numbers... I've read about this and Simmons has referenced it in one of his podcasts...
Last year KG was checked out. He was about done. Probably heading towards retirement. The team was below .500 in February... and then KG took two games off for "personal reasons" and something snapped. Apparently he had a new lust for the game. I'm not sure what the heck happened to him and what those "personal reasons" were on 2/19 and 2/20... but KG supposedly talked to someone... regained his love for the game... and came back a completely different person. How much of that is speculation and how much of that is Simmons hinting at inside knowledge... I don't know. But check those two games in Feb and they most certainly say "personal reasons". We had a 15-16 record. Post allstar break, KG averaged 17 points, 8.5 rebounds 3.2 assists, 1 block and 1.1 steals... In the playoffs he was averaging 19.2 points, 10.4 rebounds, 1.5 blocks and a steal. He was the epicenter of our defense and basically carried us (with some help on offense from Rondo) past the mighty Horford-less Hawks and 8th seed 76ers.
We won 24 of our last 34 games and it started with KG's sudden rejuvenation. Now it should be noted that it also coincided with his switch to center. We had lost 7 of our last 8 games and then on 2/28 against Cleveland, Bass got his first start next to KG. So how much of KG's rejuvenation had to do with the switch to center and how much had to do with him taking two days off for "personal reasons" and coming back with a new fire?
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People wanna say we are overrating AB while they sit there and act like giving up our best defensive player for a backup center guarantees us a trip to the finals. How ironic is that.
Gortat isn't a backup center. You get him, start him and move KG to his original spot at 4. Now, you have two guys in your lineup that can actually rebound and you don't give away a gazillion of extra possessions in every single game.
No irony I can see.
Ok so, move KG back to the 4 *Where hes not as effective not anymore* and trade our best defensive player for gortat. Irony irony irony.
Zero evidence to support this. I point you to the 2011 season when we were completely dominant with KG at his natural 4 position. Don't get prickly because some of us aren't so quick to buy into the Avery Bradley hype machine.
The fact that you think he's our "best defensive player" shows how twisted things have gotten in your mind (hint: it's actually really KG ::)).
There is actually a lot of evidence to support this.
Please provide it.
Well, here is an easy one:
http://www.82games.com/1112/11BOS13.HTM#bypos
It shows Garnett's stats while at the 4 compared to his production at the 5. And those are mostly offensive numbers. That's not even touching his impact on defense at the 5 (where typically teams hide their least effective offensive weapon, allowing Garnett to roam).
I didn't look at that link in depth, but I just want to point out something before you read too deeply into those numbers... I've read about this and Simmons has referenced it in one of his podcasts...
Last year KG was checked out. He was about done. Probably heading towards retirement. The team was below .500 in February... and then KG took two games off for "personal reasons" and something snapped. Apparently he had a new lust for the game. I'm not sure what the heck happened to him and what those "personal reasons" were on 2/19 and 2/20... but KG supposedly talked to someone... regained his love for the game... and came back a completely different person. We had a 15-16 record. Post allstar break, KG averaged 17 points, 8.5 rebounds 3.2 assists, 1 block and 1.1 steals... In the playoffs he was averaging 19.2 points, 10.4 rebounds, 1.5 blocks and a steal. He was the epicenter of our defense and basically carried us (with some help on offense from Rondo) past the mighty Horford-less Hawks and 8th seed 76ers.
We won 24 of our last 34 games and it started with KG's sudden rejuvenation. Now it should be noted that it also coincided with his switch to center. We had lost 7 of our last 8 games and then on 2/28 against Cleveland, Bass got his first start next to KG. So how much of KG's rejuvenation had to do with the switch to center and how much had to do with him taking two days off for "personal reasons" and coming back with a new fire?
That I can't answer. Can't really speak to any of it actually.
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People wanna say we are overrating AB while they sit there and act like giving up our best defensive player for a backup center guarantees us a trip to the finals. How ironic is that.
Gortat isn't a backup center. You get him, start him and move KG to his original spot at 4. Now, you have two guys in your lineup that can actually rebound and you don't give away a gazillion of extra possessions in every single game.
No irony I can see.
Ok so, move KG back to the 4 *Where hes not as effective not anymore* and trade our best defensive player for gortat. Irony irony irony.
Zero evidence to support this. I point you to the 2011 season when we were completely dominant with KG at his natural 4 position. Don't get prickly because some of us aren't so quick to buy into the Avery Bradley hype machine.
The fact that you think he's our "best defensive player" shows how twisted things have gotten in your mind (hint: it's actually really KG ::)).
There is actually a lot of evidence to support this.
Please provide it.
Well, here is an easy one:
http://www.82games.com/1112/11BOS13.HTM#bypos
It shows Garnett's stats while at the 4 compared to his production at the 5. And those are mostly offensive numbers. That's not even touching his impact on defense at the 5 (where typically teams hide their least effective offensive weapon, allowing Garnett to roam).
I didn't look at that link in depth, but I just want to point out something before you read too deeply into those numbers... I've read about this and Simmons has referenced it in one of his podcasts...
Last year KG was checked out. He was about done. Probably heading towards retirement. The team was below .500 in February... and then KG took two games off for "personal reasons" and something snapped. Apparently he had a new lust for the game. I'm not sure what the heck happened to him and what those "personal reasons" were on 2/19 and 2/20... but KG supposedly talked to someone... regained his love for the game... and came back a completely different person. We had a 15-16 record. Post allstar break, KG averaged 17 points, 8.5 rebounds 3.2 assists, 1 block and 1.1 steals... In the playoffs he was averaging 19.2 points, 10.4 rebounds, 1.5 blocks and a steal. He was the epicenter of our defense and basically carried us (with some help on offense from Rondo) past the mighty Horford-less Hawks and 8th seed 76ers.
We won 24 of our last 34 games and it started with KG's sudden rejuvenation. Now it should be noted that it also coincided with his switch to center. We had lost 7 of our last 8 games and then on 2/28 against Cleveland, Bass got his first start next to KG. So how much of KG's rejuvenation had to do with the switch to center and how much had to do with him taking two days off for "personal reasons" and coming back with a new fire?
That I can't answer. Can't really speak to any of it actually.
I don't imagine that anyone here can. KG's an interesting character. And again, I don't know how much of that is speculation or how much of it was Simmons hinting at inside knowledge, but I remember hearing it in a podcast... that KG was checked out and wasn't having fun anymore. He took a couple games off to get his mind straight and came back a different person. Something snapped. Something happened during those two days off that made him regain his enthusiasm for the game of basketball... and it definitely showed in the team's success and his individual stats.
But yes, it also happens to be when Bass got the default "he's the only big left" starting role next to KG (which forced KG to center). So it's hard to determine if the change in stats was simply the move to center or had a deeper context. Just figured I'd bring it up. I think KG will do just fine playing at PF next to a legit center.
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I'd be interested in seeing KG defend Lebron. His size and length could pose problems for LBJ like he never really sees. KG could sag a bit more than most since he could recover to contest the jumper, and I think in that situation KG would be able to defend him pretty well.
But can Gortat defend Bosh?
In all liklihood, the C's would simply zone up.
Doesn't anyone else remember our best defense against the Heat being the zone? With two seven footers to defend the paint, we turn Miami into jumpshooting team and even more effectively than we did last year. Their shots get taken away from the basket while we pound the ball down low and have Gortat and Garnett shoot straight over their defenders. That plus the fact that the rebound battle is ours for the taking gives us a better chance to win than having ANOTHER body to throw at Wade when Lee, Rondo and Barbosa should be more than capable of limiting him enough.
I keep saying it but what Bradley brings to the table is not going to be enough to change the makeup of this team. We're either title ready now with Bradley giving us a slightly stronger edge in dribble penetration (and that's really the only BIG plus he brings that we cant get from our other guards) OR we aren't title ready and need to make a big improvement to our rebounding and interior presence and thus the need for a player like Gortat to take this team from where it is now to being title ready.
If you honestly believe we are title ready as constructed, more power to you but when I see us give up so many 2nd chance points while getting none for ourselves, my mind thinks different.
The zone defense was very effective against Miami when they were playing with two big men (Bosh + Haslem/Anthony/whoever) ... it won't be anywhere near as useful now that Miami has gone small and has spaced out the floor with multiple shooters.
Miami is not jumpshooting their way to a title. Sorry, it just ain't happening. High percentage basketball necessitates scoring points in the paint. I'll take two guys shooting 4 feet away from the basket over smaller defenders every day to a bunch of shooting specialist taking shots 20+ feet away from the basket over guards who can play good defense. The point of the game is to keep them away from the rack and that's what inside presence is for plus it makes 2nd chance points far less likely as the only rebounds they should be getting are the long ones.
Their shooters get a lot of drive-and-kick opportunities. If the Stay-Puft Marshmallow Man is protecting the rim, they can make havoc by forcing help and switches that leave someone open. Their passing right now is incredibly improved, so that's a problem. Zone makes more sense now than it used to.
Bradley's advantage/strength is protecting dribble penetration on the perimeter, but he can only guard one guy, and that guy can't be Lebron.
Gortat's advantage is his size and skill in the middle. He's not made of Marshmallow.
I think the best shot is to go big and long to control the boards and passing lanes. That's what would make them jumpshooters. We'd have to be able to switch all screens, pack the middle, trap, and cut off the reverse pass to the weak side. A zone should accomplish that, and is really the only shot (since their individual players are generally better than any other individual opposing player).
Bradley and Gortat would really both be key pieces in making that happen.
In a forced-choice scenario such as the OP presents, I trade small for big 10 of 10 times, but as much as I'm high on Sully, I'd try to send him with a pick and matching $$ and keep Bradley.
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People wanna say we are overrating AB while they sit there and act like giving up our best defensive player for a backup center guarantees us a trip to the finals. How ironic is that.
Gortat isn't a backup center. You get him, start him and move KG to his original spot at 4. Now, you have two guys in your lineup that can actually rebound and you don't give away a gazillion of extra possessions in every single game.
No irony I can see.
Ok so, move KG back to the 4 *Where hes not as effective not anymore* and trade our best defensive player for gortat. Irony irony irony.
Zero evidence to support this. I point you to the 2011 season when we were completely dominant with KG at his natural 4 position. Don't get prickly because some of us aren't so quick to buy into the Avery Bradley hype machine.
The fact that you think he's our "best defensive player" shows how twisted things have gotten in your mind (hint: it's actually really KG ::)).
There is actually a lot of evidence to support this.
Please provide it.
Well, here is an easy one:
http://www.82games.com/1112/11BOS13.HTM#bypos
It shows Garnett's stats while at the 4 compared to his production at the 5. And those are mostly offensive numbers. That's not even touching his impact on defense at the 5 (where typically teams hide their least effective offensive weapon, allowing Garnett to roam).
I didn't look at that link in depth, but I just want to point out something before you read too deeply into those numbers... I've read about this and Simmons has referenced it in one of his podcasts...
Last year KG was checked out. He was about done. Probably heading towards retirement. The team was below .500 in February... and then KG took two games off for "personal reasons" and something snapped. Apparently he had a new lust for the game. I'm not sure what the heck happened to him and what those "personal reasons" were on 2/19 and 2/20... but KG supposedly talked to someone... regained his love for the game... and came back a completely different person. We had a 15-16 record. Post allstar break, KG averaged 17 points, 8.5 rebounds 3.2 assists, 1 block and 1.1 steals... In the playoffs he was averaging 19.2 points, 10.4 rebounds, 1.5 blocks and a steal. He was the epicenter of our defense and basically carried us (with some help on offense from Rondo) past the mighty Horford-less Hawks and 8th seed 76ers.
We won 24 of our last 34 games and it started with KG's sudden rejuvenation. Now it should be noted that it also coincided with his switch to center. We had lost 7 of our last 8 games and then on 2/28 against Cleveland, Bass got his first start next to KG. So how much of KG's rejuvenation had to do with the switch to center and how much had to do with him taking two days off for "personal reasons" and coming back with a new fire?
That I can't answer. Can't really speak to any of it actually.
I don't imagine that anyone here can. KG's an interesting character. And again, I don't know how much of that is speculation or how much of it was Simmons hinting at inside knowledge, but I remember hearing it in a podcast... that KG was checked out and wasn't having fun anymore. He took a couple games off to get his mind straight and came back a different person. Something snapped. Something happened during those two days off that made him regain his enthusiasm for the game of basketball... and it definitely showed in the team's success and his individual stats.
But yes, it also happens to be when Bass got the default "he's the only big left" starting role next to KG (which forced KG to center). So it's hard to determine if the change in stats was simply the move to center or had a deeper context. Just figured I'd bring it up. I think KG will do just fine playing at PF next to a legit center.
Yes, this season especially, it looks like KG has no problems with elevation and seems as healthy as he was before suffering that knee injury. So, there is no concrete proof to say that he's not going to be capable of handling the PFs anymore.
We moved KG to C last season, because Jermaine O'Neal was ineffective (granted, let's cut him some slack, he was never healthy throughout the season) and we had no choice but to start Bass, and as Bass can't play the C, KG had to, and it worked.
Now, if we can get a solid center (Gortat fits into this definition. He's definitely above average. Close to being elite? We may have a debate on that) and use either Bass or Sullinger (provided we don't pack them together for the trade, which wouldn't be a sensible move) as the spark providing PF off the bench instead of throwing them to the fire as starters, we can have an improved ceiling for this team.
That's something I truly believe in.
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People wanna say we are overrating AB while they sit there and act like giving up our best defensive player for a backup center guarantees us a trip to the finals. How ironic is that.
Gortat isn't a backup center. You get him, start him and move KG to his original spot at 4. Now, you have two guys in your lineup that can actually rebound and you don't give away a gazillion of extra possessions in every single game.
No irony I can see.
Ok so, move KG back to the 4 *Where hes not as effective not anymore* and trade our best defensive player for gortat. Irony irony irony.
Zero evidence to support this. I point you to the 2011 season when we were completely dominant with KG at his natural 4 position. Don't get prickly because some of us aren't so quick to buy into the Avery Bradley hype machine.
The fact that you think he's our "best defensive player" shows how twisted things have gotten in your mind (hint: it's actually really KG ::)).
There is actually a lot of evidence to support this.
Please provide it.
Well, here is an easy one:
http://www.82games.com/1112/11BOS13.HTM#bypos
It shows Garnett's stats while at the 4 compared to his production at the 5. And those are mostly offensive numbers. That's not even touching his impact on defense at the 5 (where typically teams hide their least effective offensive weapon, allowing Garnett to roam).
KG played most of his pf minutes earlier in the season when he was out of shape. If he'd played center the first half of the season and pf later in the year the numbers would be the opposite of what they were for pf and c.
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People wanna say we are overrating AB while they sit there and act like giving up our best defensive player for a backup center guarantees us a trip to the finals. How ironic is that.
Gortat isn't a backup center. You get him, start him and move KG to his original spot at 4. Now, you have two guys in your lineup that can actually rebound and you don't give away a gazillion of extra possessions in every single game.
No irony I can see.
Ok so, move KG back to the 4 *Where hes not as effective not anymore* and trade our best defensive player for gortat. Irony irony irony.
Zero evidence to support this. I point you to the 2011 season when we were completely dominant with KG at his natural 4 position. Don't get prickly because some of us aren't so quick to buy into the Avery Bradley hype machine.
The fact that you think he's our "best defensive player" shows how twisted things have gotten in your mind (hint: it's actually really KG ::)).
There is actually a lot of evidence to support this.
Please provide it.
Well, here is an easy one:
http://www.82games.com/1112/11BOS13.HTM#bypos
It shows Garnett's stats while at the 4 compared to his production at the 5. And those are mostly offensive numbers. That's not even touching his impact on defense at the 5 (where typically teams hide their least effective offensive weapon, allowing Garnett to roam).
KG played most of his pf minutes earlier in the season when he was out of shape. If he'd played center the first half of the season and pf later in the year the numbers would be the opposite of what they were for pf and c.
That might also be true. I'm just going from what actually happened. I've never known KG to come into the season out of shape though.
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I believe KG can handle playing both positions.
In fact, I would imagine that half of his minutes would still be at C. The Celtics still need the 7 foot presence.
I imagine KG would play his 1st five minutes at pf and then when he came back in, replace Gortat at C.
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People wanna say we are overrating AB while they sit there and act like giving up our best defensive player for a backup center guarantees us a trip to the finals. How ironic is that.
Gortat isn't a backup center. You get him, start him and move KG to his original spot at 4. Now, you have two guys in your lineup that can actually rebound and you don't give away a gazillion of extra possessions in every single game.
No irony I can see.
Ok so, move KG back to the 4 *Where hes not as effective not anymore* and trade our best defensive player for gortat. Irony irony irony.
Zero evidence to support this. I point you to the 2011 season when we were completely dominant with KG at his natural 4 position. Don't get prickly because some of us aren't so quick to buy into the Avery Bradley hype machine.
The fact that you think he's our "best defensive player" shows how twisted things have gotten in your mind (hint: it's actually really KG ::)).
There is actually a lot of evidence to support this.
Please provide it.
Well, here is an easy one:
http://www.82games.com/1112/11BOS13.HTM#bypos
It shows Garnett's stats while at the 4 compared to his production at the 5. And those are mostly offensive numbers. That's not even touching his impact on defense at the 5 (where typically teams hide their least effective offensive weapon, allowing Garnett to roam).
KG played most of his pf minutes earlier in the season when he was out of shape. If he'd played center the first half of the season and pf later in the year the numbers would be the opposite of what they were for pf and c.
That might also be true. I'm just going from what actually happened. I've never known KG to come into the season out of shape though.
We saw it last year. KG and PP both thought the season was going to be canceled and both came in out of shape. That's why we started out so poorly.
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People wanna say we are overrating AB while they sit there and act like giving up our best defensive player for a backup center guarantees us a trip to the finals. How ironic is that.
Gortat isn't a backup center. You get him, start him and move KG to his original spot at 4. Now, you have two guys in your lineup that can actually rebound and you don't give away a gazillion of extra possessions in every single game.
No irony I can see.
Ok so, move KG back to the 4 *Where hes not as effective not anymore* and trade our best defensive player for gortat. Irony irony irony.
Zero evidence to support this. I point you to the 2011 season when we were completely dominant with KG at his natural 4 position. Don't get prickly because some of us aren't so quick to buy into the Avery Bradley hype machine.
The fact that you think he's our "best defensive player" shows how twisted things have gotten in your mind (hint: it's actually really KG ::)).
There is actually a lot of evidence to support this.
Please provide it.
Well, here is an easy one:
http://www.82games.com/1112/11BOS13.HTM#bypos
It shows Garnett's stats while at the 4 compared to his production at the 5. And those are mostly offensive numbers. That's not even touching his impact on defense at the 5 (where typically teams hide their least effective offensive weapon, allowing Garnett to roam).
KG played most of his pf minutes earlier in the season when he was out of shape. If he'd played center the first half of the season and pf later in the year the numbers would be the opposite of what they were for pf and c.
That might also be true. I'm just going from what actually happened. I've never known KG to come into the season out of shape though.
We saw it last year. KG and PP both thought the season was going to be canceled and both came in out of shape. That's why we started out so poorly.
See I never thought KG was out of shape. Pierce, yes, but it wouldn't be the first time with him.
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"Provide evidence" *Provides evidence* *Excuses come flying in*. I'm done with all the trade talk. Nothing is happening for at least a few weeks anyways. You guys can continue the nonsense tho, carry on.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ksLUyISUV8U
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYqVcDg048M
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5YNbh7D3Hus
Avery Bradley is one of the best PERIMETER defenders in the league. Obviously KG is the defensive MVP of this team but he's 60 years old and will die if he plays over 30 minutes a game. Bradley is a young stud who can come into a game and turn the energy around by running the floor for easy baskets and picking up the ball full court. I don't know how anybody could argue that.
Marcin Gortat would be a huge help for this team and I'd love to acquire him, but not for Avery Bradley. It's of my opinion that Avery is the difference between the .500 Celtics and the version that possesses on of the leagues deadliest defenses.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ksLUyISUV8U
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYqVcDg048M
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5YNbh7D3Hus
Avery Bradley is one of the best PERIMETER defenders in the league. Obviously KG is the defensive MVP of this team but he's 60 years old and will die if he plays over 30 minutes a game. Bradley is a young stud who can come into a game and turn the energy around by running the floor for easy baskets and picking up the ball full court. I don't know how anybody could argue that.
Marcin Gortat would be a huge help for this team and I'd love to acquire him, but not for Avery Bradley. It's of my opinion that Avery is the difference between the .500 Celtics and the version that possesses on of the leagues deadliest defenses.
How about we keep Ab and get Gortat to help KG down low at times? Find a way to make this trade happen so we can have excellent perimeter D and D in the paint close to the rim.
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People wanna say we are overrating AB while they sit there and act like giving up our best defensive player for a backup center guarantees us a trip to the finals. How ironic is that.
Gortat isn't a backup center. You get him, start him and move KG to his original spot at 4. Now, you have two guys in your lineup that can actually rebound and you don't give away a gazillion of extra possessions in every single game.
No irony I can see.
Ok so, move KG back to the 4 *Where hes not as effective not anymore* and trade our best defensive player for gortat. Irony irony irony.
Zero evidence to support this. I point you to the 2011 season when we were completely dominant with KG at his natural 4 position. Don't get prickly because some of us aren't so quick to buy into the Avery Bradley hype machine.
The fact that you think he's our "best defensive player" shows how twisted things have gotten in your mind (hint: it's actually really KG ::)).
There is actually a lot of evidence to support this.
You beat me to it ^ And is suggesting bradley as our best defensive player really that far fetched? At worst hes our second best. KG is the anchor of our defense but hes getting up there in years. AB, obviously, can bring that defensive energy for longer stretches of time.
KG's a better defender than Bradley. So's Rondo. Bradley pressures the ball more than Rondo (especially in the backcourt) because he expends less energy on offense but if you watch the games you'll see players challenge Avery more than Rondo.
-
People wanna say we are overrating AB while they sit there and act like giving up our best defensive player for a backup center guarantees us a trip to the finals. How ironic is that.
Gortat isn't a backup center. You get him, start him and move KG to his original spot at 4. Now, you have two guys in your lineup that can actually rebound and you don't give away a gazillion of extra possessions in every single game.
No irony I can see.
Ok so, move KG back to the 4 *Where hes not as effective not anymore* and trade our best defensive player for gortat. Irony irony irony.
Zero evidence to support this. I point you to the 2011 season when we were completely dominant with KG at his natural 4 position. Don't get prickly because some of us aren't so quick to buy into the Avery Bradley hype machine.
The fact that you think he's our "best defensive player" shows how twisted things have gotten in your mind (hint: it's actually really KG ::)).
There is actually a lot of evidence to support this.
You beat me to it ^ And is suggesting bradley as our best defensive player really that far fetched? At worst hes our second best. KG is the anchor of our defense but hes getting up there in years. AB, obviously, can bring that defensive energy for longer stretches of time.
KG's a better defender than Bradley. So's Rondo. Bradley pressures the ball more than Rondo (especially in the backcourt) because he expends less energy on offense but if you watch the games you'll see players challenge Avery more than Rondo.
I feel like you guys are just messing with me now lol.
-
People wanna say we are overrating AB while they sit there and act like giving up our best defensive player for a backup center guarantees us a trip to the finals. How ironic is that.
Gortat isn't a backup center. You get him, start him and move KG to his original spot at 4. Now, you have two guys in your lineup that can actually rebound and you don't give away a gazillion of extra possessions in every single game.
No irony I can see.
Ok so, move KG back to the 4 *Where hes not as effective not anymore* and trade our best defensive player for gortat. Irony irony irony.
Zero evidence to support this. I point you to the 2011 season when we were completely dominant with KG at his natural 4 position. Don't get prickly because some of us aren't so quick to buy into the Avery Bradley hype machine.
The fact that you think he's our "best defensive player" shows how twisted things have gotten in your mind (hint: it's actually really KG ::)).
There is actually a lot of evidence to support this.
You beat me to it ^ And is suggesting bradley as our best defensive player really that far fetched? At worst hes our second best. KG is the anchor of our defense but hes getting up there in years. AB, obviously, can bring that defensive energy for longer stretches of time.
KG's a better defender than Bradley. So's Rondo. Bradley pressures the ball more than Rondo (especially in the backcourt) because he expends less energy on offense but if you watch the games you'll see players challenge Avery more than Rondo.
I feel like you guys are just messing with me now lol.
I know right. Rondo the ultimate gambler? lol
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People wanna say we are overrating AB while they sit there and act like giving up our best defensive player for a backup center guarantees us a trip to the finals. How ironic is that.
Gortat isn't a backup center. You get him, start him and move KG to his original spot at 4. Now, you have two guys in your lineup that can actually rebound and you don't give away a gazillion of extra possessions in every single game.
No irony I can see.
Ok so, move KG back to the 4 *Where hes not as effective not anymore* and trade our best defensive player for gortat. Irony irony irony.
Zero evidence to support this. I point you to the 2011 season when we were completely dominant with KG at his natural 4 position. Don't get prickly because some of us aren't so quick to buy into the Avery Bradley hype machine.
The fact that you think he's our "best defensive player" shows how twisted things have gotten in your mind (hint: it's actually really KG ::)).
There is actually a lot of evidence to support this.
You beat me to it ^ And is suggesting bradley as our best defensive player really that far fetched? At worst hes our second best. KG is the anchor of our defense but hes getting up there in years. AB, obviously, can bring that defensive energy for longer stretches of time.
KG's a better defender than Bradley. So's Rondo. Bradley pressures the ball more than Rondo (especially in the backcourt) because he expends less energy on offense but if you watch the games you'll see players challenge Avery more than Rondo.
I feel like you guys are just messing with me now lol.
No, what I said was accurate. You realize that Rondo's been 1st or 2nd team all defense 4 years in a row, don't you? lol.
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People wanna say we are overrating AB while they sit there and act like giving up our best defensive player for a backup center guarantees us a trip to the finals. How ironic is that.
Gortat isn't a backup center. You get him, start him and move KG to his original spot at 4. Now, you have two guys in your lineup that can actually rebound and you don't give away a gazillion of extra possessions in every single game.
No irony I can see.
Ok so, move KG back to the 4 *Where hes not as effective not anymore* and trade our best defensive player for gortat. Irony irony irony.
Zero evidence to support this. I point you to the 2011 season when we were completely dominant with KG at his natural 4 position. Don't get prickly because some of us aren't so quick to buy into the Avery Bradley hype machine.
The fact that you think he's our "best defensive player" shows how twisted things have gotten in your mind (hint: it's actually really KG ::)).
There is actually a lot of evidence to support this.
You beat me to it ^ And is suggesting bradley as our best defensive player really that far fetched? At worst hes our second best. KG is the anchor of our defense but hes getting up there in years. AB, obviously, can bring that defensive energy for longer stretches of time.
KG's a better defender than Bradley. So's Rondo. Bradley pressures the ball more than Rondo (especially in the backcourt) because he expends less energy on offense but if you watch the games you'll see players challenge Avery more than Rondo.
I feel like you guys are just messing with me now lol.
No, what I said was accurate. You realize that Rondo's been 1st or 2nd team all defense 4 years in a row, don't you? lol.
Not because of his awesome on-ball defense, I'll tell you that much.
-
People wanna say we are overrating AB while they sit there and act like giving up our best defensive player for a backup center guarantees us a trip to the finals. How ironic is that.
Gortat isn't a backup center. You get him, start him and move KG to his original spot at 4. Now, you have two guys in your lineup that can actually rebound and you don't give away a gazillion of extra possessions in every single game.
No irony I can see.
Ok so, move KG back to the 4 *Where hes not as effective not anymore* and trade our best defensive player for gortat. Irony irony irony.
Zero evidence to support this. I point you to the 2011 season when we were completely dominant with KG at his natural 4 position. Don't get prickly because some of us aren't so quick to buy into the Avery Bradley hype machine.
The fact that you think he's our "best defensive player" shows how twisted things have gotten in your mind (hint: it's actually really KG ::)).
There is actually a lot of evidence to support this.
You beat me to it ^ And is suggesting bradley as our best defensive player really that far fetched? At worst hes our second best. KG is the anchor of our defense but hes getting up there in years. AB, obviously, can bring that defensive energy for longer stretches of time.
KG's a better defender than Bradley. So's Rondo. Bradley pressures the ball more than Rondo (especially in the backcourt) because he expends less energy on offense but if you watch the games you'll see players challenge Avery more than Rondo.
I feel like you guys are just messing with me now lol.
No, what I said was accurate. You realize that Rondo's been 1st or 2nd team all defense 4 years in a row, don't you? lol.
Not because of his awesome on-ball defense, I'll tell you that much.
Go for it. Tell us why the coaches think he's a top level defender and what they think he does poorly.
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People wanna say we are overrating AB while they sit there and act like giving up our best defensive player for a backup center guarantees us a trip to the finals. How ironic is that.
Gortat isn't a backup center. You get him, start him and move KG to his original spot at 4. Now, you have two guys in your lineup that can actually rebound and you don't give away a gazillion of extra possessions in every single game.
No irony I can see.
Ok so, move KG back to the 4 *Where hes not as effective not anymore* and trade our best defensive player for gortat. Irony irony irony.
Zero evidence to support this. I point you to the 2011 season when we were completely dominant with KG at his natural 4 position. Don't get prickly because some of us aren't so quick to buy into the Avery Bradley hype machine.
The fact that you think he's our "best defensive player" shows how twisted things have gotten in your mind (hint: it's actually really KG ::)).
There is actually a lot of evidence to support this.
You beat me to it ^ And is suggesting bradley as our best defensive player really that far fetched? At worst hes our second best. KG is the anchor of our defense but hes getting up there in years. AB, obviously, can bring that defensive energy for longer stretches of time.
KG's a better defender than Bradley. So's Rondo. Bradley pressures the ball more than Rondo (especially in the backcourt) because he expends less energy on offense but if you watch the games you'll see players challenge Avery more than Rondo.
I feel like you guys are just messing with me now lol.
No, what I said was accurate. You realize that Rondo's been 1st or 2nd team all defense 4 years in a row, don't you? lol.
Not because of his awesome on-ball defense, I'll tell you that much.
Go for it. Tell us why the coaches think he's a top level defender and what they think he does poorly.
Because he gets a lot of steals, he plays the lanes very well, he's vocal, he's athletic, and don't dismiss the impact him rebounding the ball has on defensive perception. Rebounds is seen as a defensive skill.
For all his strengths, he's never been that good at staying in front of ball-handlers. He's done well enough recovering to make a play from behind, but the cost outweights the benefits on that regard.
I don't see how Rondo is a better on-ball defender than Bradley in any regard.
And honestly, elite defending PGs don't get a lot of playing time in this league.
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People wanna say we are overrating AB while they sit there and act like giving up our best defensive player for a backup center guarantees us a trip to the finals. How ironic is that.
Gortat isn't a backup center. You get him, start him and move KG to his original spot at 4. Now, you have two guys in your lineup that can actually rebound and you don't give away a gazillion of extra possessions in every single game.
No irony I can see.
Ok so, move KG back to the 4 *Where hes not as effective not anymore* and trade our best defensive player for gortat. Irony irony irony.
Zero evidence to support this. I point you to the 2011 season when we were completely dominant with KG at his natural 4 position. Don't get prickly because some of us aren't so quick to buy into the Avery Bradley hype machine.
The fact that you think he's our "best defensive player" shows how twisted things have gotten in your mind (hint: it's actually really KG ::)).
There is actually a lot of evidence to support this.
You beat me to it ^ And is suggesting bradley as our best defensive player really that far fetched? At worst hes our second best. KG is the anchor of our defense but hes getting up there in years. AB, obviously, can bring that defensive energy for longer stretches of time.
KG's a better defender than Bradley. So's Rondo. Bradley pressures the ball more than Rondo (especially in the backcourt) because he expends less energy on offense but if you watch the games you'll see players challenge Avery more than Rondo.
I feel like you guys are just messing with me now lol.
No, what I said was accurate. You realize that Rondo's been 1st or 2nd team all defense 4 years in a row, don't you? lol.
Not because of his awesome on-ball defense, I'll tell you that much.
Go for it. Tell us why the coaches think he's a top level defender and what they think he does poorly.
Because he gets a lot of steals, he plays the lanes very well, he's vocal, he's athletic, and don't dismiss the impact him rebounding the ball has on defensive perception. Rebounds is seen as a defensive skill.
For all his strengths, he's never been that good at staying in front of ball-handlers. He's done well enough recovering to make a play from behind, but the cost outweights the benefits on that regard.
I don't see how Rondo is a better on-ball defender than Bradley in any regard.
And honestly, elite defending PGs don't get a lot of playing time in this league.
Rondo does a fine job of staying in front of his man, they generally wait for someone to set a pick before they try and get past him. I don't see a lot of players doing better than him. That includes Bradley, who pressures the ball well but sometimes gets beat because his ball pressure puts him out of position.
It's kind of silly to claim that elite defending PGs don't get a lot of playing time, those are people who don't have to work at that level for 35 minutes a game or worry about foul trouble. Compare Rondo to other point guards getting a decent amount of minutes and he does fine.
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Rondo has the skills to be that top defender, but doesn't always play that way. Spends more time trying to poke away from behind.
One more reason to get another big man. It gives Rondo more freedom to do that with better lane defense down low.
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Because he gets a lot of steals, he plays the lanes very well, he's vocal, he's athletic, and don't dismiss the impact him rebounding the ball has on defensive perception. Rebounds is seen as a defensive skill.
If those are the criteria then what made him beat out Russell Westbrook, a guy who is FAR more athletic, averaged equal steals and rebounds while playing in every game (13 more than Rondo), is also vocal, and is even better than Thabo Sefolosha (a superior defender) at playing the lanes in a defensive system that focuses on such?
Why did Rondo receive 11 second team votes and 9 first team team votes and Westbrook only had 9 second and 1 first?
Why has Rondo been selected to 2 first teams and 2 second teams and Westbrook has never come close when he averages .3 more rebounds and .3 less assists (career) and is the most athletic PG in the league?
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Im really torn as to what I would do with AB or Gortat. At first i was 100% up for an AB for Gortat trade. However the more i think about it ABs skill set may actually be harder to find than gortats.
For those who think Rondo is a better defender then AB, you are mistaken. Rondo is a better rebounder and is better at getting steals but pure on ball D AB is noticeably better. Just compare how Rondo and AB focus on their man and fight threw picks.
With the NBA being a guards league ABs D will be a god sent for years to come.
I would try for a Bass + Lee + Pick for Milsap trade. Milsap would give better D and rebounding to the starting lineup.
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Rondo has the skills to be that top defender, but doesn't always play that way. Spends more time trying to poke away from behind.
He tries to poke the ball free when that's his only option, usually when his man goes past a pick and Rondo's behind him.
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The one crucial point that has hardly been touched on in this discussion is Bradley's injury status.
Two bum shoulders at his age. Not one. Two. Anyone who's ever had shoulder surgery and tried to play basketball (let alone at the professional level), will tell you how difficult is it to harness your game. He already wasn't the strongest shooter; he's missed a lot of time (without handling or shooting because of the injury), and he's waaaay too young to already have problematic shoulders.
This will be an issue for Bradley for the rest of his career, mark these words.
Even as a superior perimeter and man defender, he will have to adjust the physicality of his game, and the range of motion in his arms will be slower and limited, no matter what any doctor tells you. Your shoulder is the only joint in your body that does "180 degree" (depending on one's flexibility) ranges of motion; this also makes it one of the more easily compromised joints in the body. Bradley is what? 23, 24? Younger?
Unfortunately, HE WILL NOT LAST, and we may never see him at the level he was playing last season.
With that said, our lack of scoring and post-defenders down low is also an issue on this team, aside from everyone's fixation on "Welll durrrrr, who's gunna guard Wade?????"
We don't have Bradley now to guard Wade, who's to say and guarantee when he returns, that he will be performing at that level???
If we can get a SOLID scoring and defending big man like Gortat,
WHO WILL START, why on Earth are we questioning a package that features a severely INJURED Avery Bradley, maybe one other player, and a draft pick?
A package of Bradley, Kris Joseph, and either a 1st or 2nd rounder is about what it's taking?
We have to be all over that. Use your heads guys! If the Suns want to get trade raped again by us (Rondo reference), then let them do it!
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For me Bradley = Lee and Bass = Sully.
I think for either positions, one is not much better than the other, they both give us similar game play, both give us similar production, and both are redundant to our team. Bradley is only two or three years younger than Lee, his ceiling is high but with his injuries who knows what will happen. Bass is older than Sully and I think Sully has more promise and a higher ceiling then anyone.
For me, I first offer Bradley, filler and picks. Which will be denied. My second offer consists of Bradley, Bass, and picks. If the prefer Lee and Bass even better but I think Bradley will be a top a lot of GMs wishlists if they are dealing with the Celtics.
In the end, for me, and for this team currently, any big man (Gortat, Smith, Varejo, even Dalembert) is > Bradley.
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Because he gets a lot of steals, he plays the lanes very well, he's vocal, he's athletic, and don't dismiss the impact him rebounding the ball has on defensive perception. Rebounds is seen as a defensive skill.
If those are the criteria then what made him beat out Russell Westbrook, a guy who is FAR more athletic, averaged equal steals and rebounds while playing in every game (13 more than Rondo), is also vocal, and is even better than Thabo Sefolosha (a superior defender) at playing the lanes in a defensive system that focuses on such?
Why did Rondo receive 11 second team votes and 9 first team team votes and Westbrook only had 9 second and 1 first?
Why has Rondo been selected to 2 first teams and 2 second teams and Westbrook has never come close when he averages .3 more rebounds and .3 less assists (career) and is the most athletic PG in the league?
Who knows, I don't pay much attention to who was selected for an award to be able to judge a skillset of a player. For that matter, why was Lindsay Hunter never selected to one of these defensive teams?
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For me, I first offer Bradley, filler and picks. Which will be denied. My second offer consists of Bradley, Bass, and picks. If the prefer Lee and Bass even better but I think Bradley will be a top a lot of GMs wishlists if they are dealing with the Celtics.
Your problem is that the players with contracts that can be used as filler are Terry, Lee, and Bass if you want to get someone back who has at last a MLE-sized contract.
I disagree about Sullinger having a higher ceiling than Bradley. If you are saying that most GMs will value Bradley more than Sullinger, then I agree.
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No way would I be trading Sully and AB for Gorhead. Melo , Green , Lee are fair game and very reluctantly Bass too :-\ as some package deal.
This team NEEDS the youth and energy of AB and Sully to help Rondo, KG and PP defeat the HEAT.
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Because he gets a lot of steals, he plays the lanes very well, he's vocal, he's athletic, and don't dismiss the impact him rebounding the ball has on defensive perception. Rebounds is seen as a defensive skill.
If those are the criteria then what made him beat out Russell Westbrook, a guy who is FAR more athletic, averaged equal steals and rebounds while playing in every game (13 more than Rondo), is also vocal, and is even better than Thabo Sefolosha (a superior defender) at playing the lanes in a defensive system that focuses on such?
Why did Rondo receive 11 second team votes and 9 first team team votes and Westbrook only had 9 second and 1 first?
Why has Rondo been selected to 2 first teams and 2 second teams and Westbrook has never come close when he averages .3 more rebounds and .3 less assists (career) and is the most athletic PG in the league?
Who knows, I don't pay much attention to who was selected for an award to be able to judge a skillset of a player. For that matter, why was Lindsay Hunter never selected to one of these defensive teams?
When he was playing big(gish) minutes he wasn't a better defender than players like Payton, Kidd or Jordan?
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Is gortats trade value going down? With the recent struggle of gortat
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Is gortats trade value going down? With the recent struggle of gortat
Keep struggling, Marcin.
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Is gortats trade value going down? With the recent struggle of gortat
Keep struggling, Marcin.
I hope so.