CelticsStrong
Celtics Basketball => Celtics Talk => Topic started by: chambers on November 24, 2012, 04:37:49 AM
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The thing that may stop Danny going after Gortat is the fact that having Bass out there means we have multiple jumpshooting threats in the paint.
Bringing in Gortat eliminates Bass from the starting line up (because he'll be traded or probably be relegated to the bench).
This ruins much of our strategy of stretching the opposing teams bigs and opening up the paint for Rondo to penetrate or make easy passes to backdoor cutters like Avery Bradley or Jeff Green.
It's why this Bradley for Gortat rumor is probably over rated and Doc and Danny are deciding whether or not they want KG to play the power forward position and if his body can handle the work involved in guarding the other elite PF's in the league.
Ie: against OKC because Gortat would be on Perk KG would be guarding Ibaka instead of Perkins- which is a much tougher defensive assignment and takes up loads more of KG's energy which we'll need deep in the fourth quarter on help defense protecting the rim.
It's a big gamble and it's why we might see Danny prefer to wait until we can trade the pieces to go after Josh Smith simply because it keeps KG at the center position where he's comfortable for the rest of his career.
I think we are going to see Danny throw everything at the Hawks to get Smith around All Star break. I mean EVERYONE is up for grabs that isn't named Rondo, Pierce, KG or Green. If we can't work something out with Atlanta and we are looking like we really need that inside presence then Danny may go after Gortat (pick n roll ability), and then finally Verajao (defensive ability). In fact Verajao is probably the farthest from the picture because of his lack of offensive ability and the fact that our style of defense will really hinder his offensive rebounding abilities. Even Millsap is more likely than Verajao with our style of play.
In my opinion we need some kind of offensive replacement if we are moving Bass in a deal because he just gives us too much production with that jumpshot. Not just points wise but our ability to double-stretch the floor just has such a huge influence on opposing defenses and where we want to be come playoff time. Josh Smith may not be the best shooter, but he's okay when he's left wide open, and defenders must go out to him because if he gets a first step on his defender to the basket they are 99% getting dunked on. Factor that in with KG needing to stay at center particularly on defense, and it makes you re-think the Gortat situation.
Or I could be completely wrong :)
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The major flaw in your theory is that Gortat is a better jump shooter than Smith.
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The major flaw in your theory is that Gortat is a better jump shooter than Smith.
Actually, the point I made was that Josh Smith is okay when he's left wide open, but he has the speed and athleticism to get to the hole at will. Gortat doesn't have this speed, yet he doesn't have the jumpshot that forces teams to go out and honor him.
Did you ignore the part about KG playing defense against elite PF's?
You know Josh Smith and KG guard the opposite players to Gortat and KG right?
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The major flaw in your theory is that Gortat is a better jump shooter than Smith.
Actually, the point I made was that Josh Smith is okay when he's left wide open, but he has the speed and athleticism to get to the hole at will. Gortat doesn't have this speed, yet he doesn't have the jumpshot that forces teams to go out and honor him.
Did you ignore the part about KG playing defense against elite PF's?
You know Josh Smith and KG guard the opposite players to Gortat and KG right?
Feeling snarky?
Josh Smith is not that good of a jump shooter, even when he's left wide open. I don't disagree that he can certainly go to the hoop when he's being rushed at, though. No, Gortat isn't the driver that Smith is, but he does have a jump shot that he can force other teams to honor. He's also a very good roller, which would open things up even more for KG on the perimeter who happens to be one of the best pick and poppers in the game.
I did ignore the part about "KG playing defense against elite PFs." I didn't see you mention that in your post, and even if you had, I don't think he has a problem guarding the power forward position.
This is just my two cents, though. No need to get testy.
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The major flaw in your theory is that Gortat is a better jump shooter than Smith.
Actually, the point I made was that Josh Smith is okay when he's left wide open, but he has the speed and athleticism to get to the hole at will. Gortat doesn't have this speed, yet he doesn't have the jumpshot that forces teams to go out and honor him.
Did you ignore the part about KG playing defense against elite PF's?
You know Josh Smith and KG guard the opposite players to Gortat and KG right?
Feeling snarky?
Josh Smith is not that good of a jump shooter, even when he's left wide open. I don't disagree that he can certainly go to the hoop when he's being rushed at, though. No, Gortat isn't the driver that Smith is, but he does have a jump shot that he can force other teams to honor. He's also a very good roller, which would open things up even more for KG on the perimeter who happens to be one of the best pick and poppers in the game.
I did ignore the part about "KG playing defense against elite PFs." I didn't see you mention that in your post, and even if you had, I don't think he has a problem guarding the power forward position.
This is just my two cents, though. No need to get testy.
It's perfectly reasonable for me to get snarky if you're going to criticize someones post without reading the whole thing.
Don't highlight problems with theories if you're not going to read the whole theory lol.
My point is that Josh Smith next to KG means KG can guard Perkins and not Ibaka but with Gortat he'll have to guard Ibaka.
Smith is still a threat on the perimeter because he has an inside out game that requires attention when he's on the perimeter and with Celtics screening so much defenders can't hang off him.
Gortat has a 100% interior game which is opposite to Bass who has much of his game on the 10-15 foot jumpshot whereas Gortat relies on the pick and roll, particularly the roll- more than any of our current bigs, so we'd have to change our offense to cater to that. This change may affect Rondos ability to pass as easily because KG and Bass give us so much interior spacing on offense.
Who knows, we may actually be better running more pick and roll with Gortat rather than Bass but it means we'll have to change our style and teams will be able to help on KG shooting the 15 footer much more (in my opinion).
I think Smith's game is more suited to the style we're trying to achieve than Gortat's. I still don't think Gortat would be a bad pick up but I just think he's option number 2 at the moment.
As I said, I could be completely wrong and would like to see what others think.
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The reason we would go for gortat is because we have too many jump shooters in the starting five already. Our best celtics lineup in the last five years was with rondo, Allen, pierce, kg, and perk and perk certainly couldn't shoot. Gortat would be wide open under the hoop all the time with rondos penetration
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The major flaw in your theory is that Gortat is a better jump shooter than Smith.
Actually, the point I made was that Josh Smith is okay when he's left wide open, but he has the speed and athleticism to get to the hole at will. Gortat doesn't have this speed, yet he doesn't have the jumpshot that forces teams to go out and honor him.
Did you ignore the part about KG playing defense against elite PF's?
You know Josh Smith and KG guard the opposite players to Gortat and KG right?
Feeling snarky?
Josh Smith is not that good of a jump shooter, even when he's left wide open. I don't disagree that he can certainly go to the hoop when he's being rushed at, though. No, Gortat isn't the driver that Smith is, but he does have a jump shot that he can force other teams to honor. He's also a very good roller, which would open things up even more for KG on the perimeter who happens to be one of the best pick and poppers in the game.
I did ignore the part about "KG playing defense against elite PFs." I didn't see you mention that in your post, and even if you had, I don't think he has a problem guarding the power forward position.
This is just my two cents, though. No need to get testy.
It's perfectly reasonable for me to get snarky if you're going to criticize someones post without reading the whole thing.
Don't highlight problems with theories if you're not going to read the whole theory lol.
My point is that Josh Smith next to KG means KG can guard Perkins and not Ibaka but with Gortat he'll have to guard Ibaka.
Smith is still a threat on the perimeter because he has an inside out game that requires attention when he's on the perimeter and with Celtics screening so much defenders can't hang off him.
Gortat has a 100% interior game which is opposite to Bass who has much of his game on the 10-15 foot jumpshot whereas Gortat relies on the pick and roll, particularly the roll- more than any of our current bigs, so we'd have to change our offense to cater to that. This change may affect Rondos ability to pass as easily because KG and Bass give us so much interior spacing on offense.
Who knows, we may actually be better running more pick and roll with Gortat rather than Bass but it means we'll have to change our style and teams will be able to help on KG shooting the 15 footer much more (in my opinion).
I think Smith's game is more suited to the style we're trying to achieve than Gortat's. I still don't think Gortat would be a bad pick up but I just think he's option number 2 at the moment.
As I said, I could be completely wrong and would like to see what others think.
Offensively, I think that KG and Gortat would be an excellent pairing. It's not true that Gortat has "a 100% interior game." He can actually hit a jumper on pick and pops, but I agree that he is better as a "roller." That's not a problem for me when you have Garnett as the "popper." Let me remind you that this team played some of its best ball over the course of the last five years with the likes of Shaquille O'Neal and Kendrick Perkins at the center. These are not guys who provided spacing on offense.
Defensively, I simply don't have a problem with KG guarding 4s. Even at the ripe old age of 36, he's still a very agile and very quick seven footer. That doesn't worry me at all.
I'm not a guy who thinks we desperately need to make a trade to be contender, but I am very high on Marcin Gortat, and would love to be able to land him for the present as well as for the foreseeable future.
I like Smith, too, but the size of his contract, his impending free agency, and his tendency to fall in love with bad shots all make me a little apprehensive about trading for him.
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The reason we would go for gortat is because we have too many jump shooters in the starting five already. Our best celtics lineup in the last five years was with rondo, Allen, pierce, kg, and perk and perk certainly couldn't shoot. Gortat would be wide open under the hoop all the time with rondos penetration
So you think that Danny and Doc would rather steer towards the pick n roll starting five with Rondo dishing?
Remember there's much less room for Rondo to operate in the paint with Gortat in there than Bass moving out to 15 feet and taking his defender with him. I'm not saying this won't work. It worked very well with Shaq getting easy lay off's from Rondo.
But has Rondo become a better player with more space in the paint to work with?
Remember it's also not just about offense, it's about Kevin Garnett on the defensive end. How does KG go against Ibaka in a 7 game finals series?
Would we rather have Josh Smith on Ibaka and KG on Perk?
Or Smith on Amare and KG on Chandler?
I think Smith is a better all round defender than Gortat.
Who would be better against the Heat? Gortat or Smith? You could make arguments for both.
I just want people to weight the Smith vs Gortat debate up on both ends of the floor because most of the stuff I've seen really only implies offense.
Rondo makes both of them look good too- better than they currently look for sure.
Going back to offense, I think part of Rondo's ability to flourish into the assist king of the NBA is the space that our KG/Bass offense gives him.
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The major flaw in your theory is that Gortat is a better jump shooter than Smith.
Actually, the point I made was that Josh Smith is okay when he's left wide open, but he has the speed and athleticism to get to the hole at will. Gortat doesn't have this speed, yet he doesn't have the jumpshot that forces teams to go out and honor him.
Did you ignore the part about KG playing defense against elite PF's?
You know Josh Smith and KG guard the opposite players to Gortat and KG right?
Feeling snarky?
Josh Smith is not that good of a jump shooter, even when he's left wide open. I don't disagree that he can certainly go to the hoop when he's being rushed at, though. No, Gortat isn't the driver that Smith is, but he does have a jump shot that he can force other teams to honor. He's also a very good roller, which would open things up even more for KG on the perimeter who happens to be one of the best pick and poppers in the game.
I did ignore the part about "KG playing defense against elite PFs." I didn't see you mention that in your post, and even if you had, I don't think he has a problem guarding the power forward position.
This is just my two cents, though. No need to get testy.
It's perfectly reasonable for me to get snarky if you're going to criticize someones post without reading the whole thing.
Don't highlight problems with theories if you're not going to read the whole theory lol.
My point is that Josh Smith next to KG means KG can guard Perkins and not Ibaka but with Gortat he'll have to guard Ibaka.
Smith is still a threat on the perimeter because he has an inside out game that requires attention when he's on the perimeter and with Celtics screening so much defenders can't hang off him.
Gortat has a 100% interior game which is opposite to Bass who has much of his game on the 10-15 foot jumpshot whereas Gortat relies on the pick and roll, particularly the roll- more than any of our current bigs, so we'd have to change our offense to cater to that. This change may affect Rondos ability to pass as easily because KG and Bass give us so much interior spacing on offense.
Who knows, we may actually be better running more pick and roll with Gortat rather than Bass but it means we'll have to change our style and teams will be able to help on KG shooting the 15 footer much more (in my opinion).
I think Smith's game is more suited to the style we're trying to achieve than Gortat's. I still don't think Gortat would be a bad pick up but I just think he's option number 2 at the moment.
As I said, I could be completely wrong and would like to see what others think.
Offensively, I think that KG and Gortat would be an excellent pairing. It's not true that Gortat has "a 100% interior game." He can actually hit a jumper on pick and pops, but I agree that he is better as a "roller." That's not a problem for me when you have Garnett as the "popper." Let me remind you that this team played some of its best ball over the course of the last five years with the likes of Shaquille O'Neal and Kendrick Perkins at the center. These are not guys who provided spacing on offense.
Defensively, I simply don't have a problem with KG guarding 4s. Even at the ripe old age of 36, he's still a very agile and very quick seven footer. That doesn't worry me at all.
I'm not a guy who thinks we desperately need to make a trade to be contender, but I am very high on Marcin Gortat, and would love to be able to land him for the present as well as for the foreseeable future.
I like Smith, too, but the size of his contract, his impending free agency, and his tendency to fall in love with bad shots all make me a little apprehensive about trading for him.
My only problem with Smith is the size of his contract. He's going to command max which means we give up more. Do we need to spend that much to get us over the edge championship wise?
Is Gortat at 7 million more appealling to Danny than Josh Smith at 15 million? Perhaps, but what's 7 million when it gets you a power forward that can guard Lebron and Kevin Durant, protect the basket and run with Rondo for 35 minutes a game in a 7 game series against the Heat?
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Agree, what we need in a C is good hands to catch dishes. rebounds and block shots.
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The major flaw in your theory is that Gortat is a better jump shooter than Smith.
Actually, the point I made was that Josh Smith is okay when he's left wide open, but he has the speed and athleticism to get to the hole at will. Gortat doesn't have this speed, yet he doesn't have the jumpshot that forces teams to go out and honor him.
Did you ignore the part about KG playing defense against elite PF's?
You know Josh Smith and KG guard the opposite players to Gortat and KG right?
Feeling snarky?
Josh Smith is not that good of a jump shooter, even when he's left wide open. I don't disagree that he can certainly go to the hoop when he's being rushed at, though. No, Gortat isn't the driver that Smith is, but he does have a jump shot that he can force other teams to honor. He's also a very good roller, which would open things up even more for KG on the perimeter who happens to be one of the best pick and poppers in the game.
I did ignore the part about "KG playing defense against elite PFs." I didn't see you mention that in your post, and even if you had, I don't think he has a problem guarding the power forward position.
This is just my two cents, though. No need to get testy.
It's perfectly reasonable for me to get snarky if you're going to criticize someones post without reading the whole thing.
Don't highlight problems with theories if you're not going to read the whole theory lol.
My point is that Josh Smith next to KG means KG can guard Perkins and not Ibaka but with Gortat he'll have to guard Ibaka.
Smith is still a threat on the perimeter because he has an inside out game that requires attention when he's on the perimeter and with Celtics screening so much defenders can't hang off him.
Gortat has a 100% interior game which is opposite to Bass who has much of his game on the 10-15 foot jumpshot whereas Gortat relies on the pick and roll, particularly the roll- more than any of our current bigs, so we'd have to change our offense to cater to that. This change may affect Rondos ability to pass as easily because KG and Bass give us so much interior spacing on offense.
Who knows, we may actually be better running more pick and roll with Gortat rather than Bass but it means we'll have to change our style and teams will be able to help on KG shooting the 15 footer much more (in my opinion).
I think Smith's game is more suited to the style we're trying to achieve than Gortat's. I still don't think Gortat would be a bad pick up but I just think he's option number 2 at the moment.
As I said, I could be completely wrong and would like to see what others think.
Offensively, I think that KG and Gortat would be an excellent pairing. It's not true that Gortat has "a 100% interior game." He can actually hit a jumper on pick and pops, but I agree that he is better as a "roller." That's not a problem for me when you have Garnett as the "popper." Let me remind you that this team played some of its best ball over the course of the last five years with the likes of Shaquille O'Neal and Kendrick Perkins at the center. These are not guys who provided spacing on offense.
Defensively, I simply don't have a problem with KG guarding 4s. Even at the ripe old age of 36, he's still a very agile and very quick seven footer. That doesn't worry me at all.
I'm not a guy who thinks we desperately need to make a trade to be contender, but I am very high on Marcin Gortat, and would love to be able to land him for the present as well as for the foreseeable future.
I like Smith, too, but the size of his contract, his impending free agency, and his tendency to fall in love with bad shots all make me a little apprehensive about trading for him.
My only problem with Smith is the size of his contract. He's going to command max which means we give up more. Do we need to spend that much to get us over the edge championship wise?
Is Gortat at 7 million more appealling to Danny than Josh Smith at 15 million? Perhaps, but what's 7 million when it gets you a power forward that can guard Lebron and Kevin Durant, protect the basket and run with Rondo for 35 minutes a game in a 7 game series against the Heat?
I think you are under rating Marcin Gortat's defensive abilities. When he was a role player in Orlando, barely getting minutes behind Dwight Howard, defense was his calling card for the few minutes a game that he got on the court. When he got to Phoenix and got regular playing time, he surprised me with the fact that he had some offensive game as well.
Put him on the Celtics, where he can put both his defensive abilities and his pick and roll offensive game to use, and I think you have the potential for an all-star caliber center.
I could be crazy, but that possibility has got me excited.
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If there is a choice between Smith and Gortat I think Gortat would be a better fit. Miami's only weakness at this point is size. They have nobody who can match up with Gortat. With Smith they would be more talented but would face similar issues they are having now with rebounding and lack of a big interior presence.
They both worry me about what it would take to get them here. Gortat doesn't make much relatively ($7 mil a year) so we would most likely take on another bad contract or trade Bradley and Bass. And I'm not even sure Phoenix would do that.
And trading for Smith would be even worse, giving up $13 million in salaries to get him would mean losing two of these three (Bass, Lee, Terry) or Green and some young prospects. I don't see Smith as much of an upgrade over Bass, especially for $6 million more per year.
This is mostly a big waste of time since the C's have little chance to get either guy.
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The reason we would go for gortat is because we have too many jump shooters in the starting five already. Our best celtics lineup in the last five years was with rondo, Allen, pierce, kg, and perk and perk certainly couldn't shoot. Gortat would be wide open under the hoop all the time with rondos penetration
So you think that Danny and Doc would rather steer towards the pick n roll starting five with Rondo dishing?
Remember there's much less room for Rondo to operate in the paint with Gortat in there than Bass moving out to 15 feet and taking his defender with him. I'm not saying this won't work. It worked very well with Shaq getting easy lay off's from Rondo.
But has Rondo become a better player with more space in the paint to work with?
Remember it's also not just about offense, it's about Kevin Garnett on the defensive end. How does KG go against Ibaka in a 7 game finals series?
Would we rather have Josh Smith on Ibaka and KG on Perk?
Or Smith on Amare and KG on Chandler?
I think Smith is a better all round defender than Gortat.
Who would be better against the Heat? Gortat or Smith? You could make arguments for both.
I just want people to weight the Smith vs Gortat debate up on both ends of the floor because most of the stuff I've seen really only implies offense.
Rondo makes both of them look good too- better than they currently look for sure.
Going back to offense, I think part of Rondo's ability to flourish into the assist king of the NBA is the space that our KG/Bass offense gives him.
To be completely honest, I wouldn't choose one over the other, I would be happy with either because I think our team is easily adaptable to either player. Yes rondo operates better with more space but gortat and him can run a great pick and roll game which still allows rondo to have the space he needs. Plus we lack a low post presence so I think we need gortat in the middle, when rondo penetrated gortat is going to get wide open dunks and buckets.
On the other end of the spectrum smith is a great slasher. Keeping him outside however would worry me a bit because he would be apt to shooting more jumpers.
On defense smith is a better defender but gortat is a true center that defends the position very well. Having a true center that can produce at such a high rate would do wonders for us.
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What's clear is that Smith is a better talent overall than Gortat especially on offense, but we saw in the playoffs that when Smith puts his mind to it, he can guard almost anyone. If Ainge HAS TO give up great prospects like Bradley or Sullinger, I definitely vote for Smith. BUT you might have to give up Green too to make the salaries work.
All that said, Gortat is more what this team needs. He would be a defensive force down low and would play the Perk role. I really don't think the logic holds together that he would not spread the floor and would prevent Rondo from penetrating,if you think about the Perk days. That lineup won a championship (Terry or Bradley replacing Allen).
Bottom line is that I can't make up my mind on Smith vs. Gortat. It all depends on which way Danny and Doc want to go, more interior presence or more talent.
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The reason we would go for gortat is because we have too many jump shooters in the starting five already. Our best celtics lineup in the last five years was with rondo, Allen, pierce, kg, and perk and perk certainly couldn't shoot. Gortat would be wide open under the hoop all the time with rondos penetration
This.
And you'll have to pay him a near max or the max to stay. I'm not sure if Dannybis going to do that now that we are overpaying Jeff Green.
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The thing that may stop Danny going after Gortat is the fact that having Bass out there means we have multiple jumpshooting threats in the paint.
Bringing in Gortat eliminates Bass from the starting line up (because he'll be traded or probably be relegated to the bench).
This ruins much of our strategy of stretching the opposing teams bigs and opening up the paint for Rondo to penetrate or make easy passes to backdoor cutters like Avery Bradley or Jeff Green.
I'd bet you would also fail to hide your frustration when that jumpshooting team plays a 40% FG game and loses inexplicably.
I'd also bet that you would also feel something is wrong when a team somehow manages to never challenge the offensive rebounds (not getting them isn't a big deal, but the problem is, we aren't even forcing the opposing players out of their comfort).
KG alone spaces out enough. Honestly, I'm not that much into the idea of spreading five shooters throughout outside the paint zone and see what happens.
Because if you don't have someone finishing up at the rim, what point is in spreading the floor?
If you have an inside presence, your opponent will also try to cover the paint, opening up even more space outside for your shooters.
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The reason we would go for gortat is because we have too many jump shooters in the starting five already. Our best celtics lineup in the last five years was with rondo, Allen, pierce, kg, and perk and perk certainly couldn't shoot. Gortat would be wide open under the hoop all the time with rondos penetration
So you think that Danny and Doc would rather steer towards the pick n roll starting five with Rondo dishing?
Remember there's much less room for Rondo to operate in the paint with Gortat in there than Bass moving out to 15 feet and taking his defender with him. I'm not saying this won't work. It worked very well with Shaq getting easy lay off's from Rondo.
But has Rondo become a better player with more space in the paint to work with?
Remember it's also not just about offense, it's about Kevin Garnett on the defensive end. How does KG go against Ibaka in a 7 game finals series?
Would we rather have Josh Smith on Ibaka and KG on Perk?
Or Smith on Amare and KG on Chandler?
I think Smith is a better all round defender than Gortat.
Who would be better against the Heat? Gortat or Smith? You could make arguments for both.
I just want people to weight the Smith vs Gortat debate up on both ends of the floor because most of the stuff I've seen really only implies offense.
Rondo makes both of them look good too- better than they currently look for sure.
Going back to offense, I think part of Rondo's ability to flourish into the assist king of the NBA is the space that our KG/Bass offense gives him.
You are completely missing the point.
Just because Gortat is our 5, doesn't mean he has to defend the other teams 5.
When we played Miami (before Nosh started to play center) Doc would cross match with KGon Bosh and Bass on Joel Anthony (because he's not an offensive threat).
We could very easilly start Gortat at 5 but put him on Ibaka, and start KG at the 4 and put him on,Perk. There is no NBA rule stating that you must matchup with the same positions.
Initially I was very much on the "Josh smith over Gortat" bandwagon, but the more I think about it the more I think Gortat is better for us.
Firstly Josh Smith will not likely come in the future for any less than a max contract. Even his current contract is quite large. We'd need to send Green and Bass/Lee just to match contracts, and we'd probably need to include Bradley too to make them bite. If we get him hell take up major cap space, and we really don't know how good he's going to get. Gortat is only on 7.5M for the next couple of years, and that's q bargain for a guy who's capable of averaging 15/10/2.5 in the right system. To get him we'd not need to lose Green - the contract is small enough that Lee or Bass on their own is almost enough to match. Phoenixo think are more desperate to ditch him, while Atlanta seem content to hold on to Smith until a great offer cones their way. That all means we can prob get Gortat for a,lot,less.
Next theres size. Smith is athletic but he's only 6'9". Having KG + Gortat gives us two 6'11" guys on the floor at the same time. I can see Doc playing small with Josh Smith spending time at Center - no fear of that with Gortat out there. I also see lebron/battier defending Smith easier then they could Gortat, who could shoot straight over guys like that the way people do to Bass now.
As for jump shots, last I heard Smith was shooting about 30% from midrange - you really want him taking shots to dare people ?
Finally I have no problem with KG defending PF's. So far this season I've seen him switch out on guards and SF's and he was able to put pressure on them and stick with them mist the time. A PF (outside of LeBron) should really be no problem for him.
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Gortat looks to be on the market.
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Other teams have figured out the C's especially on D, we need a change to raise the ante.
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I agree. I think Josh Smith is the logical choice. KG is our center, therefore why do we need another Center? My question to those who want Gortat is who will start at the 4 spot? Lebron and Carmelo run the 4 spot now. The league has changed. KG can not guard the 4 spot for 30 mins. Josh Smith gives us a guy who can.
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When I read some of the comments regarding Josh Smith on this board, I wonder how many of them are based on actually being familiar with Josh's game versus regurgitated talking points of his reputation. Sign me up as someone who thinks Josh is far and away a better defensive AND offensive fit in Boston.
Defensively, you'd get a player who can effectively play one-on-one against the likes of Lebron and Durant, as well as become the anchor we desperately need when KG's off the floor. Hypothetically, a starting five of Rondo, Bradley, Pierce, Smith, and KG could historically dominate on the defensive end.
Offensively, people harp on Josh jumpshooting. I wonder how much of that can be attributed to the personnel he's played with and a lack of an offensive system. The bulk of his career has been played with Iso-Joe and the best PG he's played was a past-his-prime Mike Bibby. Those are things that would be very different in Boston.
Now when you look at the things he brings to the table beyond jumpshooting, its easy to see why so many Boston fans want him here. He's a guy that can post up, he can drive to the rim, and he can get out in transition and finish with the best of them. And one of the most underrated things about his game is his court vision and ability to pass the ball, creating opportunities for his teammates. Put him with Rondo and another above average passing big man in KG, then through in Pierce's ability to pass - the ball movement would be a thing of a beauty.
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When I read some of the comments regarding Josh Smith on this board, I wonder how many of them are based on actually being familiar with Josh's game versus regurgitated talking points of his reputation. Sign me up as someone who thinks Josh is far and away a better defensive AND offensive fit in Boston.
Defensively, you'd get a player who can effectively play one-on-one against the likes of Lebron and Durant, as well as become the anchor we desperately need when KG's off the floor. Hypothetically, a starting five of Rondo, Bradley, Pierce, Smith, and KG could historically dominate on the defensive end.
Offensively, people harp on Josh jumpshooting. I wonder how much of that can be attributed to the personnel he's played with and a lack of an offensive system. The bulk of his career has been played with Iso-Joe and the best PG he's played was a past-his-prime Mike Bibby. Those are things that would be very different in Boston.
Now when you look at the things he brings to the table beyond jumpshooting, its easy to see why so many Boston fans want him here. He's a guy that can post up, he can drive to the rim, and he can get out in transition and finish with the best of them. And one of the most underrated things about his game is his court vision and ability to pass the ball, creating opportunities for his teammates. Put him with Rondo and another above average passing big man in KG, then through in Pierce's ability to pass - the ball movement would be a thing of a beauty.
I haven't read too many posts (if any) posts in this thread claiming that Josh Smith is a bum. Personally, I really like his game. Like most players he's got some flaws, though. Outside of that, I really don't like his contract situation. He's making $13million this year and is bound to get a contract for a number of years making at least that, probably more, per annum. That part scares me off.
Gortat, on the other hand, is making almost half of what Smith is making, and is signed through the end of next season, giving us more time to try to sign him to an extension or work something out, if we get him.
As far as what Marcin does on the court, I feel like he brings a lot to the table that would fit in well with this team. He's a good pick and roll defender, protects the paint well, and is a very good defensive rebounder. I have no problem moving KG back to the four and pairing him with Gortat up front. I think that would instantly improve our defense.
Offensively, he's a good pick and roller. He can hit the jump shot serviceably. He even has some post moves, but doesn't need to live in the paint.
On a one to ten scale, I would say that both players are in the mid to high eight range. When you consider fit and economics (future), I'd rather have Gortat.
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Defensively, you'd get a player who can effectively play one-on-one against the likes of Lebron and Durant, as well as become the anchor we desperately need when KG's off the floor. Hypothetically, a starting five of Rondo, Bradley, Pierce, Smith, and KG could historically dominate on the defensive end.
I don't see Josh Smith as anchor-type defender. More someone who plays off an anchor. An out and out forward who should be placed alongside a big man with legitimate size, a center.
I would liken Josh Smith as a shot-blocker like Kirilenko rather than a Jermaine O'Neal. I wouldn't talk about Smith as an anchor. A shot-blocking threat but not an anchor ... not sure I am making myself clear there.
Sign me up as someone who thinks Josh is far and away a better defensive AND offensive fit in Boston.
I completely agree - Josh Smith is a much better player for Boston on both ends of the court.
Having a PF with his quickness and athleticism who is a disruptive as Smith is on team defense would be incredible alongside the defensive talent already here. They would be able to create turnovers at an incredible clip and have exceptional defensive versatility in terms of matching up against different types of offensive systems.
s would his all-round game offensively (ball-handling, passing, face up game, post game, jump-shot, can get to the FT line, transition baskets, PnR) vs a very limited big man in Marcin Gortat who is just a finisher off the pick and roll and around the rim.
A better rebounding unit too if drilled properly -- J.Smith (PF) and KG (C) is better at boxing out + better attacking offensive boards than a slower less agile big man duo of KG (PF) and Gortat (C). Their quickness relative to their opponents being their main asset.
Josh Smith is way, way better than Marcin Gortat + is the much better fit in this Boston team.
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Gortat is going to command $13-15 million per annum on his next contract at this rate.
I wouldn't get caught up in the financial differences between Smith and Gortat. Gortat is not going to be on that bargain contract for much longer.
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Definitely smith over gortat but gortat will be easier to get.
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When I read some of the comments regarding Josh Smith on this board, I wonder how many of them are based on actually being familiar with Josh's game versus regurgitated talking points of his reputation. Sign me up as someone who thinks Josh is far and away a better defensive AND offensive fit in Boston.
Defensively, you'd get a player who can effectively play one-on-one against the likes of Lebron and Durant, as well as become the anchor we desperately need when KG's off the floor. Hypothetically, a starting five of Rondo, Bradley, Pierce, Smith, and KG could historically dominate on the defensive end.
Offensively, people harp on Josh jumpshooting. I wonder how much of that can be attributed to the personnel he's played with and a lack of an offensive system. The bulk of his career has been played with Iso-Joe and the best PG he's played was a past-his-prime Mike Bibby. Those are things that would be very different in Boston.
Now when you look at the things he brings to the table beyond jumpshooting, its easy to see why so many Boston fans want him here. He's a guy that can post up, he can drive to the rim, and he can get out in transition and finish with the best of them. And one of the most underrated things about his game is his court vision and ability to pass the ball, creating opportunities for his teammates. Put him with Rondo and another above average passing big man in KG, then through in Pierce's ability to pass - the ball movement would be a thing of a beauty.
I haven't read too many posts (if any) posts in this thread claiming that Josh Smith is a bum. Personally, I really like his game. Like most players he's got some flaws, though. Outside of that, I really don't like his contract situation. He's making $13million this year and is bound to get a contract for a number of years making at least that, probably more, per annum. That part scares me off.
Gortat, on the other hand, is making almost half of what Smith is making, and is signed through the end of next season, giving us more time to try to sign him to an extension or work something out, if we get him.
As far as what Marcin does on the court, I feel like he brings a lot to the table that would fit in well with this team. He's a good pick and roll defender, protects the paint well, and is a very good defensive rebounder. I have no problem moving KG back to the four and pairing him with Gortat up front. I think that would instantly improve our defense.
Offensively, he's a good pick and roller. He can hit the jump shot serviceably. He even has some post moves, but doesn't need to live in the paint.
On a one to ten scale, I would say that both players are in the mid to high eight range. When you consider fit and economics (future), I'd rather have Gortat.
I'm shocked at how high people here rate Gortat. I'd say his defense is adequate, on the Perkins scale, I'd say he's not as good a man defender, or as strong, but he's a better help defender, but hardly elite at that level.
Rebounding, Gortat is about average, with inflated defensive rebounding statistics because he's surrounded by weak rebounders. Scola is his best option running mate, and he's not a good rebounder either. If you take away PACE, you get the 20th best rebounding center in the league, the 10th best defensive rebounding center in the league. Not that he wouldn't help, but his double digit numbers are a little misleading.
Offensively, he's scoring at his worst rate since his Orlando days, with his second to worst TS%. This is because Phoenix no longer has a playmaker who can make life easy for him. He's average offensively without someone making him a part of the game plan.
He's a rotation level player, a solid but not elite starter. A 4th or 5th piece. He's not a guy you should take for granted, but not a guy you'd build around long-term as a cornerstone.
Josh Smith is a cornerstone.
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When I read some of the comments regarding Josh Smith on this board, I wonder how many of them are based on actually being familiar with Josh's game versus regurgitated talking points of his reputation. Sign me up as someone who thinks Josh is far and away a better defensive AND offensive fit in Boston.
Defensively, you'd get a player who can effectively play one-on-one against the likes of Lebron and Durant, as well as become the anchor we desperately need when KG's off the floor. Hypothetically, a starting five of Rondo, Bradley, Pierce, Smith, and KG could historically dominate on the defensive end.
Offensively, people harp on Josh jumpshooting. I wonder how much of that can be attributed to the personnel he's played with and a lack of an offensive system. The bulk of his career has been played with Iso-Joe and the best PG he's played was a past-his-prime Mike Bibby. Those are things that would be very different in Boston.
Now when you look at the things he brings to the table beyond jumpshooting, its easy to see why so many Boston fans want him here. He's a guy that can post up, he can drive to the rim, and he can get out in transition and finish with the best of them. And one of the most underrated things about his game is his court vision and ability to pass the ball, creating opportunities for his teammates. Put him with Rondo and another above average passing big man in KG, then through in Pierce's ability to pass - the ball movement would be a thing of a beauty.
I haven't read too many posts (if any) posts in this thread claiming that Josh Smith is a bum. Personally, I really like his game. Like most players he's got some flaws, though. Outside of that, I really don't like his contract situation. He's making $13million this year and is bound to get a contract for a number of years making at least that, probably more, per annum. That part scares me off.
Gortat, on the other hand, is making almost half of what Smith is making, and is signed through the end of next season, giving us more time to try to sign him to an extension or work something out, if we get him.
As far as what Marcin does on the court, I feel like he brings a lot to the table that would fit in well with this team. He's a good pick and roll defender, protects the paint well, and is a very good defensive rebounder. I have no problem moving KG back to the four and pairing him with Gortat up front. I think that would instantly improve our defense.
Offensively, he's a good pick and roller. He can hit the jump shot serviceably. He even has some post moves, but doesn't need to live in the paint.
On a one to ten scale, I would say that both players are in the mid to high eight range. When you consider fit and economics (future), I'd rather have Gortat.
I'm shocked at how high people here rate Gortat. I'd say his defense is adequate, on the Perkins scale, I'd say he's not as good a man defender, or as strong, but he's a better help defender, but hardly elite at that level.
Rebounding, Gortat is about average, with inflated defensive rebounding statistics because he's surrounded by weak rebounders. Scola is his best option running mate, and he's not a good rebounder either. If you take away PACE, you get the 20th best rebounding center in the league, the 10th best defensive rebounding center in the league. Not that he wouldn't help, but his double digit numbers are a little misleading.
Offensively, he's scoring at his worst rate since his Orlando days, with his second to worst TS%. This is because Phoenix no longer has a playmaker who can make life easy for him. He's average offensively without someone making him a part of the game plan.
He's a rotation level player, a solid but not elite starter. A 4th or 5th piece. He's not a guy you should take for granted, but not a guy you'd build around long-term as a cornerstone.
Josh Smith is a cornerstone.
His numbers are down this year with the loss of Nash, but if he came to Boston, he'd have Rondo as his point guard to make life easy for him. He may not get a ton of touches on this team, but adding him would really make us hard to defend.
By the way, he was ranked as a top five center in the league last year according to player efficiency. His numbers are down this year with no Nash, but he's still in the top ten and currently putting up better numbers than Smith.
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When I read some of the comments regarding Josh Smith on this board, I wonder how many of them are based on actually being familiar with Josh's game versus regurgitated talking points of his reputation. Sign me up as someone who thinks Josh is far and away a better defensive AND offensive fit in Boston.
Defensively, you'd get a player who can effectively play one-on-one against the likes of Lebron and Durant, as well as become the anchor we desperately need when KG's off the floor. Hypothetically, a starting five of Rondo, Bradley, Pierce, Smith, and KG could historically dominate on the defensive end.
Offensively, people harp on Josh jumpshooting. I wonder how much of that can be attributed to the personnel he's played with and a lack of an offensive system. The bulk of his career has been played with Iso-Joe and the best PG he's played was a past-his-prime Mike Bibby. Those are things that would be very different in Boston.
Now when you look at the things he brings to the table beyond jumpshooting, its easy to see why so many Boston fans want him here. He's a guy that can post up, he can drive to the rim, and he can get out in transition and finish with the best of them. And one of the most underrated things about his game is his court vision and ability to pass the ball, creating opportunities for his teammates. Put him with Rondo and another above average passing big man in KG, then through in Pierce's ability to pass - the ball movement would be a thing of a beauty.
I haven't read too many posts (if any) posts in this thread claiming that Josh Smith is a bum. Personally, I really like his game. Like most players he's got some flaws, though. Outside of that, I really don't like his contract situation. He's making $13million this year and is bound to get a contract for a number of years making at least that, probably more, per annum. That part scares me off.
Gortat, on the other hand, is making almost half of what Smith is making, and is signed through the end of next season, giving us more time to try to sign him to an extension or work something out, if we get him.
As far as what Marcin does on the court, I feel like he brings a lot to the table that would fit in well with this team. He's a good pick and roll defender, protects the paint well, and is a very good defensive rebounder. I have no problem moving KG back to the four and pairing him with Gortat up front. I think that would instantly improve our defense.
Offensively, he's a good pick and roller. He can hit the jump shot serviceably. He even has some post moves, but doesn't need to live in the paint.
On a one to ten scale, I would say that both players are in the mid to high eight range. When you consider fit and economics (future), I'd rather have Gortat.
I'm shocked at how high people here rate Gortat. I'd say his defense is adequate, on the Perkins scale, I'd say he's not as good a man defender, or as strong, but he's a better help defender, but hardly elite at that level.
Rebounding, Gortat is about average, with inflated defensive rebounding statistics because he's surrounded by weak rebounders. Scola is his best option running mate, and he's not a good rebounder either. If you take away PACE, you get the 20th best rebounding center in the league, the 10th best defensive rebounding center in the league. Not that he wouldn't help, but his double digit numbers are a little misleading.
Offensively, he's scoring at his worst rate since his Orlando days, with his second to worst TS%. This is because Phoenix no longer has a playmaker who can make life easy for him. He's average offensively without someone making him a part of the game plan.
He's a rotation level player, a solid but not elite starter. A 4th or 5th piece. He's not a guy you should take for granted, but not a guy you'd build around long-term as a cornerstone.
Josh Smith is a cornerstone.
His numbers are down this year with the loss of Nash, but if he came to Boston, he'd have Rondo as his point guard to make life easy for him. He may not get a ton of touches on this team, but adding him would really make us hard to defend.
I agree and disagree with this. Gortat would add another dimension, and would be useful. His numbers with Nash were so good because Nash didn't have another pick and roll option. Everyone else who was remotely an option (Channing Frye, Jared Dudley, etc..) was best served as a spot up shooter.
In Boston Gortat would be a 3rd or 4th option, which isn't a bad thing, but he still wouldnt be getting the touches he got with Nash. His efficiency might go up though.
By the way, he was ranked as a top five center in the league last year according to player efficiency. His numbers are down this year with no Nash, but he's still in the top ten and currently putting up better numbers than Smith.
Their PER's were nearly identical last year. The difference was that Marcin Gortat had Steve Nash, Josh Smith had...Joe Johnson as the best playmaker?
Your argument for Gortat's improved play is also applicable to Smith, then factor in that Smith's defensive rebound rate, as a combo forward, was nearly identical to Gortat's. Also Josh Smith is a much better defender, and plays to our team's strengths and needs better (allowing Garnett to play center, better rim defender, better transition player, etc..).
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When I read some of the comments regarding Josh Smith on this board, I wonder how many of them are based on actually being familiar with Josh's game versus regurgitated talking points of his reputation. Sign me up as someone who thinks Josh is far and away a better defensive AND offensive fit in Boston.
Defensively, you'd get a player who can effectively play one-on-one against the likes of Lebron and Durant, as well as become the anchor we desperately need when KG's off the floor. Hypothetically, a starting five of Rondo, Bradley, Pierce, Smith, and KG could historically dominate on the defensive end.
Offensively, people harp on Josh jumpshooting. I wonder how much of that can be attributed to the personnel he's played with and a lack of an offensive system. The bulk of his career has been played with Iso-Joe and the best PG he's played was a past-his-prime Mike Bibby. Those are things that would be very different in Boston.
Now when you look at the things he brings to the table beyond jumpshooting, its easy to see why so many Boston fans want him here. He's a guy that can post up, he can drive to the rim, and he can get out in transition and finish with the best of them. And one of the most underrated things about his game is his court vision and ability to pass the ball, creating opportunities for his teammates. Put him with Rondo and another above average passing big man in KG, then through in Pierce's ability to pass - the ball movement would be a thing of a beauty.
I haven't read too many posts (if any) posts in this thread claiming that Josh Smith is a bum. Personally, I really like his game. Like most players he's got some flaws, though. Outside of that, I really don't like his contract situation. He's making $13million this year and is bound to get a contract for a number of years making at least that, probably more, per annum. That part scares me off.
Gortat, on the other hand, is making almost half of what Smith is making, and is signed through the end of next season, giving us more time to try to sign him to an extension or work something out, if we get him.
As far as what Marcin does on the court, I feel like he brings a lot to the table that would fit in well with this team. He's a good pick and roll defender, protects the paint well, and is a very good defensive rebounder. I have no problem moving KG back to the four and pairing him with Gortat up front. I think that would instantly improve our defense.
Offensively, he's a good pick and roller. He can hit the jump shot serviceably. He even has some post moves, but doesn't need to live in the paint.
On a one to ten scale, I would say that both players are in the mid to high eight range. When you consider fit and economics (future), I'd rather have Gortat.
I'm shocked at how high people here rate Gortat. I'd say his defense is adequate, on the Perkins scale, I'd say he's not as good a man defender, or as strong, but he's a better help defender, but hardly elite at that level.
Rebounding, Gortat is about average, with inflated defensive rebounding statistics because he's surrounded by weak rebounders. Scola is his best option running mate, and he's not a good rebounder either. If you take away PACE, you get the 20th best rebounding center in the league, the 10th best defensive rebounding center in the league. Not that he wouldn't help, but his double digit numbers are a little misleading.
Offensively, he's scoring at his worst rate since his Orlando days, with his second to worst TS%. This is because Phoenix no longer has a playmaker who can make life easy for him. He's average offensively without someone making him a part of the game plan.
He's a rotation level player, a solid but not elite starter. A 4th or 5th piece. He's not a guy you should take for granted, but not a guy you'd build around long-term as a cornerstone.
Josh Smith is a cornerstone.
His numbers are down this year with the loss of Nash, but if he came to Boston, he'd have Rondo as his point guard to make life easy for him. He may not get a ton of touches on this team, but adding him would really make us hard to defend.
I agree and disagree with this. Gortat would add another dimension, and would be useful. His numbers with Nash were so good because Nash didn't have another pick and roll option. Everyone else who was remotely an option (Channing Frye, Jared Dudley, etc..) was best served as a spot up shooter.
In Boston Gortat would be a 3rd or 4th option, which isn't a bad thing, but he still wouldnt be getting the touches he got with Nash. His efficiency might go up though.
By the way, he was ranked as a top five center in the league last year according to player efficiency. His numbers are down this year with no Nash, but he's still in the top ten and currently putting up better numbers than Smith.
Their PER's were nearly identical last year. The difference was that Marcin Gortat had Steve Nash, Josh Smith had...Joe Johnson as the best playmaker?
Your argument for Gortat's improved play is also applicable to Smith, then factor in that Smith's defensive rebound rate, as a combo forward, was nearly identical to Gortat's. Also Josh Smith is a much better defender, and plays to our team's strengths and needs better (allowing Garnett to play center, better rim defender, better transition player, etc..).
Well, I don't agree with the better rim defender part. Also, I'm not sure why you (as well as a number of others) seem so dead set against moving KG back to the four.
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When I read some of the comments regarding Josh Smith on this board, I wonder how many of them are based on actually being familiar with Josh's game versus regurgitated talking points of his reputation. Sign me up as someone who thinks Josh is far and away a better defensive AND offensive fit in Boston.
Defensively, you'd get a player who can effectively play one-on-one against the likes of Lebron and Durant, as well as become the anchor we desperately need when KG's off the floor. Hypothetically, a starting five of Rondo, Bradley, Pierce, Smith, and KG could historically dominate on the defensive end.
Offensively, people harp on Josh jumpshooting. I wonder how much of that can be attributed to the personnel he's played with and a lack of an offensive system. The bulk of his career has been played with Iso-Joe and the best PG he's played was a past-his-prime Mike Bibby. Those are things that would be very different in Boston.
Now when you look at the things he brings to the table beyond jumpshooting, its easy to see why so many Boston fans want him here. He's a guy that can post up, he can drive to the rim, and he can get out in transition and finish with the best of them. And one of the most underrated things about his game is his court vision and ability to pass the ball, creating opportunities for his teammates. Put him with Rondo and another above average passing big man in KG, then through in Pierce's ability to pass - the ball movement would be a thing of a beauty.
I haven't read too many posts (if any) posts in this thread claiming that Josh Smith is a bum. Personally, I really like his game. Like most players he's got some flaws, though. Outside of that, I really don't like his contract situation. He's making $13million this year and is bound to get a contract for a number of years making at least that, probably more, per annum. That part scares me off.
Gortat, on the other hand, is making almost half of what Smith is making, and is signed through the end of next season, giving us more time to try to sign him to an extension or work something out, if we get him.
As far as what Marcin does on the court, I feel like he brings a lot to the table that would fit in well with this team. He's a good pick and roll defender, protects the paint well, and is a very good defensive rebounder. I have no problem moving KG back to the four and pairing him with Gortat up front. I think that would instantly improve our defense.
Offensively, he's a good pick and roller. He can hit the jump shot serviceably. He even has some post moves, but doesn't need to live in the paint.
On a one to ten scale, I would say that both players are in the mid to high eight range. When you consider fit and economics (future), I'd rather have Gortat.
I'm shocked at how high people here rate Gortat. I'd say his defense is adequate, on the Perkins scale, I'd say he's not as good a man defender, or as strong, but he's a better help defender, but hardly elite at that level.
Rebounding, Gortat is about average, with inflated defensive rebounding statistics because he's surrounded by weak rebounders. Scola is his best option running mate, and he's not a good rebounder either. If you take away PACE, you get the 20th best rebounding center in the league, the 10th best defensive rebounding center in the league. Not that he wouldn't help, but his double digit numbers are a little misleading.
Offensively, he's scoring at his worst rate since his Orlando days, with his second to worst TS%. This is because Phoenix no longer has a playmaker who can make life easy for him. He's average offensively without someone making him a part of the game plan.
He's a rotation level player, a solid but not elite starter. A 4th or 5th piece. He's not a guy you should take for granted, but not a guy you'd build around long-term as a cornerstone.
Josh Smith is a cornerstone.
His numbers are down this year with the loss of Nash, but if he came to Boston, he'd have Rondo as his point guard to make life easy for him. He may not get a ton of touches on this team, but adding him would really make us hard to defend.
I agree and disagree with this. Gortat would add another dimension, and would be useful. His numbers with Nash were so good because Nash didn't have another pick and roll option. Everyone else who was remotely an option (Channing Frye, Jared Dudley, etc..) was best served as a spot up shooter.
In Boston Gortat would be a 3rd or 4th option, which isn't a bad thing, but he still wouldnt be getting the touches he got with Nash. His efficiency might go up though.
By the way, he was ranked as a top five center in the league last year according to player efficiency. His numbers are down this year with no Nash, but he's still in the top ten and currently putting up better numbers than Smith.
Their PER's were nearly identical last year. The difference was that Marcin Gortat had Steve Nash, Josh Smith had...Joe Johnson as the best playmaker?
Your argument for Gortat's improved play is also applicable to Smith, then factor in that Smith's defensive rebound rate, as a combo forward, was nearly identical to Gortat's. Also Josh Smith is a much better defender, and plays to our team's strengths and needs better (allowing Garnett to play center, better rim defender, better transition player, etc..).
Well, I don't agree with the better rim defender part. Also, I'm not sure why you (as well as a number of others) seem so dead set against moving KG back to the four.
Well Josh Smith as a 3/4 had the 13th best BLK% in the NBA last year among guys with 50 games started. Gortat was 15th.
Josh Smith was the best rim defender on the 13th best defense in the NBA. Gortat was the best rim defender on the 21st best defense (according to OPP FG%).
Those are just the easy numbers to look up. For deeper stuff, you need to look hard, but the numbers basically back it up.
As far as KG at the 5, we play better with him there.
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The reason we would go for gortat is because we have too many jump shooters in the starting five already. Our best celtics lineup in the last five years was with rondo, Allen, pierce, kg, and perk and perk certainly couldn't shoot. Gortat would be wide open under the hoop all the time with rondos penetration
So you think that Danny and Doc would rather steer towards the pick n roll starting five with Rondo dishing?
Remember there's much less room for Rondo to operate in the paint with Gortat in there than Bass moving out to 15 feet and taking his defender with him. I'm not saying this won't work. It worked very well with Shaq getting easy lay off's from Rondo.
But has Rondo become a better player with more space in the paint to work with?
Remember it's also not just about offense, it's about Kevin Garnett on the defensive end. How does KG go against Ibaka in a 7 game finals series?
Would we rather have Josh Smith on Ibaka and KG on Perk?
Or Smith on Amare and KG on Chandler?
I think Smith is a better all round defender than Gortat.
Who would be better against the Heat? Gortat or Smith? You could make arguments for both.
I just want people to weight the Smith vs Gortat debate up on both ends of the floor because most of the stuff I've seen really only implies offense.
Rondo makes both of them look good too- better than they currently look for sure.
Going back to offense, I think part of Rondo's ability to flourish into the assist king of the NBA is the space that our KG/Bass offense gives him.
You are completely missing the point.
Just because Gortat is our 5, doesn't mean he has to defend the other teams 5.
When we played Miami (before Bosh started to play center) Doc would cross match with KGon Bosh and Bass on Joel Anthony (because he's not an offensive threat).
We could very easilly start Gortat at 5 but put him on Ibaka, and start KG at the 4 and put him on,Perk. There is no NBA rule stating that you must matchup with the same positions.
Initially I was very much on the "Josh smith over Gortat" bandwagon, but the more I think about it the more I think Gortat is better for us.
Firstly Josh Smith will not likely come in the future for any less than a max contract. Even his current contract is quite large. We'd need to send Green and Bass/Lee just to match contracts, and we'd probably need to include Bradley too to make them bite. If we get him hell take up major cap space, and we really don't know how good he's going to get. Gortat is only on 7.5M for the next couple of years, and that's q bargain for a guy who's capable of averaging 15/10/2.5 in the right system. To get him we'd not need to lose Green - the contract is small enough that Lee or Bass on their own is almost enough to match. Phoenixo think are more desperate to ditch him, while Atlanta seem content to hold on to Smith until a great offer cones their way. That all means we can prob get Gortat for a,lot,less.
Next theres size. Smith is athletic but he's only 6'9". Having KG + Gortat gives us two 6'11" guys on the floor at the same time. I can see Doc playing small with Josh Smith spending time at Center - no fear of that with Gortat out there. I also see lebron/battier defending Smith easier then they could Gortat, who could shoot straight over guys like that the way people do to Bass now.
As for jump shots, last I heard Smith was shooting about 30% from midrange - you really want him taking shots to dare people ?
Finally I have no problem with KG defending PF's. So far this season I've seen him switch out on guards and SF's and he was able to put pressure on them and stick with them mist the time. A PF (outside of LeBron) should really be no problem for him.
I actually think you're missing the point.
Obviously there is no rule about who must guard who on defense but if you put Gortat on Ibaka there is an instant mismatch.
You're acting like it's just Doc's choice who KG guards. Unfortunately, you have no choice against most elite NBA teams. There's a reason Doc put KG at center last season.
You're claiming we can put KG on anyone and he can guard anyone in the NBA, but just as Doc Rivers feels, putting a 36 year old veteran (who's already struggling with fatigue and being limited to a maximum amount of minutes guarding NBA centers) on a young, fresh elite power forward for those same minutes means KG's fatigue factor is in red alert at the end of a game in crunch time.
We've seen how his lift is affected and how his shot is affected when he's played too many minutes and run his ass off.
You can't just put Gortat on Ibaka or Bosh, or Amare.
They will all get their jumpshot off easily or fake and drive and burn Gortat.
KG MUST take these guys in a match up.
If Josh Smith is there instead of Gortat, KG can guard the center and Josh Smith can guard the elite power forwards.
Here's another example on defense:
If you put KG on Ibaka KG has to go and honor that 15 foot jumpshot, same with Chris Bosh.
Teams with a prevalent jumpshooting big will target the player that KG is guarding and try to take him away from the basket so they can get to the paint easier.
ie: 1) OKC last night when Durant continually attacked the rim and KG came over to help.
2) Miami vs Boston in the ECF last season when Lebron would drive and kick to Bosh in the corner repeatedly leaving KG in no mans land.
People are overrating Gortat's ability to protect the basket on defense.
I think people are underrating Smiths ability to protect the basket and I believe he'd be much better on defense than Gortat.
With Smith on this team we are a much stronger defensive team and his ability to both post up and attack the rim from the perimeter means we can stretch the floor or run a pick and roll OR run and and gun with Rondo up and down the floor.
But I'll repeat, it's not just as easy as saying 'ok let's just put KG on the opposing teams center and let Gortat guard the power forward, problem solved'.
Having Smith in their completely changes KG's work rate on defense and how effective KG is particularly late in games because of the role he is forced to play as the power forward. It's part of the reason Doc moved KG to center in the first place- to add longevity to his career.
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If your intent is to get past the Heat, Josh Smith is the choice. If you're looking to get past the Lakers or Spurs, Gortat is the man.
I don't see how the Cs are going to bean a healthy heat team without a major upgrade. Josh Smith is that upgrade. He would give the Cs four top level defenders at his position in KG, Smith, Rondo and Bradley. Offensively, if he promises to not shoot anywhere where he can't easily touch the rim, he could be extremely effective on the other end of Rondo fast breaks and alley oops.
If I'm the Celtics, I'm offering ATL anyone on their roster save KG, RR, and Pierce for Smith.
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If your intent is to get past the Heat, Josh Smith is the choice. If you're looking to get past the Lakers or Spurs, Gortat is the man.
I don't see how the Cs are going to bean a healthy heat team without a major upgrade. Josh Smith is that upgrade. He would give the Cs four top level defenders at his position in KG, Smith, Rondo and Bradley. Offensively, if he promises to not shoot anywhere where he can't easily touch the rim, he could be extremely effective on the other end of Rondo fast breaks and alley oops.
If I'm the Celtics, I'm offering ATL anyone on their roster save KG, RR, and Pierce for Smith.
Agreed. Beat the Heat then worry about the Finals when you get there. If Ainge lands Smith then sign KMart.