CelticsStrong
Celtics Basketball => Celtics Talk => Topic started by: FatjohnReturns on November 22, 2012, 04:03:38 PM
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This Celtics team cannot win playing small ball.
As someone else stated in another thread you cannot win with small ball without LBJ level talent
Doc always has and continues to mismanage player rotations when given too many options.
Wilcox/Collins/Sully should be splitting time at Center and KG/Bass should be manning the Power Forward. When KG and Bass both start the 2nd unit interior defense is bad.
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Isn't Sully at center one of the "small ball" lineups we're trying to avoid?
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Isn't Sully at center one of the "small ball" lineups we're trying to avoid?
Yes
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what do you mean by small ball? 95% of contenders play a pf at center. the whole league is playing what you call "small ball" but its really normal ball.
i dont want collins taking minutes away from anyone, and i dont want KG out of the center position. your ideas are out of touch with reality.
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Ainge is going to have to trade for a big man. Doc is trying to force a square peg into a round hole.
Stubborn Head Coach. Ainge going have to take away that option via trade, and force Doc to use regular lineup.
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95% of contenders play a pf at center. the whole league is playing what you call "small ball"
That being said their bigs are bigger than our bigs or they are more athletic and younger. When we play small ball we have a smallish 6'9" that isn't athletic and it makes problems even worse. It is one thing is a smaller guy can compensate for his smallness with athletic ability and another if he can't.
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95% of contenders play a pf at center. the whole league is playing what you call "small ball"
That being said their bigs are bigger than our bigs or they are more athletic and younger. When we play small ball we have a smallish 6'9" that isn't athletic and it makes problems even worse. It is one thing is a smaller guy can compensate for his smallness with athletic ability and another if he can't.
we play a 6'9 guy because he is much more talented and plays better basketball than the 7 footer we have who averages 0.8 pts per game in his career.
what dont you get, its not all about height and size. doc plays our most talented players the most. thats a good choice.
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what dont you get, its not all about height and size. doc plays our most talented players the most. thats a good choice.
Dude, it is not working, you don't get it. He doesn't play C well. It takes away his strengths. We are a sub 500 team with the small ball.
Talented PG cannot guard talented C in the post. So size matters, that is why Joe Blow off the street can't make it in the NBA and why the league drafts tall guys.
Pick your all time small guy team. Guys under 6'8" and I will take the 6'8" and over guys and my guys would own your guys every time.
Size matters, talent matters. We don't have bigs with athletic talent.
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what dont you get, its not all about height and size. doc plays our most talented players the most. thats a good choice.
Dude, it is not working, you don't get it. He doesn't play C well. It takes away his strengths. We are a sub 500 team with the small ball.
Talented PG cannot guard talented C in the post. So size matters, that is why Joe Blow off the street can't make it in the NBA and why the league drafts tall guys.
Pick your all time small guy team. Guys under 6'8" and I will take the 6'8" and over guys and my guys would own your guys every time.
Size matters, talent matters. We don't have bigs with athletic talent.
KG was a top 4 center last year after the all star break.
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Newsflash KG is 7'1". That is not small, thanks for making my point for me. He is listed at 6'11" but he is taller than that. Either way he is a true legit big and you made my point, thanks!
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95% of contenders play a pf at center. the whole league is playing what you call "small ball"
That being said their bigs are bigger than our bigs or they are more athletic and younger. When we play small ball we have a smallish 6'9" that isn't athletic and it makes problems even worse. It is one thing is a smaller guy can compensate for his smallness with athletic ability and another if he can't.
we play a 6'9 guy because he is much more talented and plays better basketball than the 7 footer we have who averages 0.8 pts per game in his career.
what dont you get, its not all about height and size. doc plays our most talented players the most. thats a good choice.
As a coach,somtimes you play less talented players because of pure size.
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KG at center is fine. He may not be able to play major minutes, but he is highly effective in the minutes he does play.
The biggest problem, plain and simple, is Bass/Sully/Green. Those three combined are flat out undersized, marginal PF's. Green isn't even a PF, in reality.
The sooner the C's can find a way to ship those three out, the better off they'll be.
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Newsflash KG is 7'1". That is not small, thanks for making my point for me. He is listed at 6'11" but he is taller than that. Either way he is a true legit big and you made my point, thanks!
True, very true. And the team seems to play much better when he is on the court. The problem is that he goes to the bench after 5 minutes on the court. And that seems to be the problem.
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95% of contenders play a pf at center. the whole league is playing what you call "small ball"
That being said their bigs are bigger than our bigs or they are more athletic and younger. When we play small ball we have a smallish 6'9" that isn't athletic and it makes problems even worse. It is one thing is a smaller guy can compensate for his smallness with athletic ability and another if he can't.
we play a 6'9 guy because he is much more talented and plays better basketball than the 7 footer we have who averages 0.8 pts per game in his career.
what dont you get, its not all about height and size. doc plays our most talented players the most. thats a good choice.
As a coach,somtimes you play less talented players because of pure size.
not in the new speed nba
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other than HEAT...what the rest of the "REAL" teams have is 1- 2 STRONG Centers. Spurs having Duncan and Splitter is just not fair. Chicago had ASIK and Noah, Bynum and Gasol , on and on... but there is generally a STRONG center. Even the HEAT have BOSH who is 6'11 . Our only decent BIG is 36 years old ., he needs HELP!!!
Can't throw Sully , Green , Bass up against the 7 ft er's that are good and expect to come out on top , at least in series it an't happening. SUre the jump shot , might luck out and fall occasionally.
The team is BUILT WRONG, I wanted the C's to take TWO centers in the draft.
I really don't think Josh Smith is the answer...totally ., he'd help ...but this team still needs an ACTIVE guy like NOAH or Verajao or a BIG man like MArk Gasol to be the center piece.
Doc is never gonna win anther banner without a good center and PF to add to ROndo and Bradley.
We are getting murdered inside, no rebounds , no defense, COusins and Gortat would be a start.
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demarcus cousins is the best center in the game.... look at his numbers
look at his numbers 18.1 / 11 /1.6/1.5/1.2
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The real point is, if you play small ball you must do two things consistently better than the other team. First you must have all five players running the floor. If you get a couple guys who dont run well then you dont get back on defense and get set up. Second you must rebound at least as well or better than your opponent. Rebounding is what gets you out on the break.
We do neither consistently well.
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we[re not playing small ball. the entire league is small playing a power forward at center.
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95% of contenders play a pf at center. the whole league is playing what you call "small ball"
That being said their bigs are bigger than our bigs or they are more athletic and younger. When we play small ball we have a smallish 6'9" that isn't athletic and it makes problems even worse. It is one thing is a smaller guy can compensate for his smallness with athletic ability and another if he can't.
we play a 6'9 guy because he is much more talented and plays better basketball than the 7 footer we have who averages 0.8 pts per game in his career.
what dont you get, its not all about height and size. doc plays our most talented players the most. thats a good choice.
As a coach,somtimes you play less talented players because of pure size.
not in the new speed nba
You can't replicate Miami Heat formula with Jeff Green as your small ball power forward. This league has and will always be big man dominant league. Every now and then Lebron James, Michael Jordan come along to make exception to the the rule winning without a dominant big man. They did however have solid bigs who excelled in their roles.
Championship winning big men last decade- Kevin Garnett, Tim Duncan, Shaquille O'neal, Rasheed Wallace, Ben Wallace, David Robinson, Dirk Nowitzki, Pau Gasol, Andrew Bynum, Alonzo Mourning, Tyson Chandler, Chris Bosh...
edit: Dwight Howard is knocking on the door. He is next unfortunately. :'(
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we[re not playing small ball. the entire league is small playing a power forward at center.
Really?
Tyson Chandler
Brook Lopez
Andrea Bargnani
Andrew Bynum
Monroe
Hibbert
Noah
Marc Gasol
Nene
Dalembert
I think I will stop there.
Which of these are not true centers? Come on, you know I can go on through the league and keep naming them. Only the Heat and I will give you the Hawks in the East play power forwards as starting centers. Granted Nene amd Bynum are out but they would be starting if not hurt.
Small ball is when you take out one of your bigs, usually the center and replace with an athletic forward that can play multiple positions. (Boris Diaw or Shawn Marion come to mind).
Our problem with small ball is that we play undersized and less than athletic bigs in our small ball lineup. Bass and Sullinger for example. Our best small ball bigs are WIlcox and Green but Jeff is not a true PF. Wilcox is unable to compensate for his (Greens)shortcomings as a PF. Only KG can do that on our roster.
The best guys IMHO for the bigman slot small ball lineup in the league currently are Lebron, Josh Smith, Thaddeus Young, Tayshawn Prince and Luol Deng.
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95% of contenders play a pf at center. the whole league is playing what you call "small ball"
That being said their bigs are bigger than our bigs or they are more athletic and younger. When we play small ball we have a smallish 6'9" that isn't athletic and it makes problems even worse. It is one thing is a smaller guy can compensate for his smallness with athletic ability and another if he can't.
we play a 6'9 guy because he is much more talented and plays better basketball than the 7 footer we have who averages 0.8 pts per game in his career.
what dont you get, its not all about height and size. doc plays our most talented players the most. thats a good choice.
As a coach,somtimes you play less talented players because of pure size.
So, from this perspective, Jason Collins should see the bulk of the bench minutes, I assume.
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we[re not playing small ball. the entire league is small playing a power forward at center.
Really?
Tyson Chandler
Brook Lopez
Andrea Bargnani
Andrew Bynum
Monroe
Hibbert
Noah
Marc Gasol
Nene
Dalembert
I think I will stop there.
Which of these are not true centers? Come on, you know I can go on through the league and keep naming them. Only the Heat and I will give you the Hawks in the East play power forwards as starting centers. Granted Nene amd Bynum are out but they would be starting if not hurt.
Small ball is when you take out one of your bigs, usually the center and replace with an athletic forward that can play multiple positions. (Boris Diaw or Shawn Marion come to mind).
Our problem with small ball is that we play undersized and less than athletic bigs in our small ball lineup. Bass and Sullinger for example. Our best small ball bigs are WIlcox and Green but Jeff is not a true PF. Wilcox is unable to compensate for his (Greens)shortcomings as a PF. Only KG can do that on our roster.
The best guys IMHO for the bigman slot small ball lineup in the league currently are Lebron, Josh Smith, Thaddeus Young, Tayshawn Prince and Luol Deng.
**** none of those teams are contenders.
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we[re not playing small ball. the entire league is small playing a power forward at center.
Really?
Tyson Chandler
Brook Lopez
Andrea Bargnani
Andrew Bynum
Monroe
Hibbert
Noah
Marc Gasol
Nene
Dalembert
I think I will stop there.
Which of these are not true centers? Come on, you know I can go on through the league and keep naming them. Only the Heat and I will give you the Hawks in the East play power forwards as starting centers. Granted Nene amd Bynum are out but they would be starting if not hurt.
Small ball is when you take out one of your bigs, usually the center and replace with an athletic forward that can play multiple positions. (Boris Diaw or Shawn Marion come to mind).
Our problem with small ball is that we play undersized and less than athletic bigs in our small ball lineup. Bass and Sullinger for example. Our best small ball bigs are WIlcox and Green but Jeff is not a true PF. Wilcox is unable to compensate for his (Greens)shortcomings as a PF. Only KG can do that on our roster.
The best guys IMHO for the bigman slot small ball lineup in the league currently are Lebron, Josh Smith, Thaddeus Young, Tayshawn Prince and Luol Deng.
**** none of those teams are contenders.
So you're saying having a true big man is actually a disadvantage? C'mon that's silly
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Why waste time arguing with him, he is wrong and doesn't live in reality.....
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all the contenders are small. look at miami, or okc (perk isnt huge)
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Small ball nearly gave me and everyone else at the Garden a heart attack tonight. The Celts were up 14 and it was time to rest KG. So what does Doc do? He throws this lineup on the floor -- Rondo, Lee, Pierce, Green and Bass. Are you kidding me? OKC cut the lead from 14 to 6 when this lineup was on the floor, with lots of easy buckets. Doc called timeout and got KG back in. OKC did cut it to three, but KG was the difference in the end, playing great D, grabbing boards, and hitting a key bucket and free throws. There is absolutely no reason Doc had to have that tiny ball lineup on the floor tonight.
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Not to worry.
Some pansy frenchman with a big nose is the new Celticsblog messiah for 2012/13 and will solve all of our problems.
**Edit** Yes I know Bass cant anchor a defense.
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Not to worry.
Some pansy frenchman with a big nose is the new Celticsblog messiah for 2012/13 and will solve all of our problems.
**Edit** Yes I know Bass cant anchor a defense.
Who's the "pansy frenchman"?
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SA isn't small. Memphis has a true Center in Gasol. NYC isn't small. MIA C is small . OKC C is 6'10", that is not small BTW. Get the pattern, not to mention LA.
Thanks for proving my point Lightspeed, not all contenders are small.
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SA isn't small. Memphis has a true Center in Gasol. NYC isn't small. MIA C is small . OKC C is 6'10", that is not small BTW. Get the pattern, not to mention LA.
Thanks for proving my point Lightspeed, not all contenders are small.
Beat me to it. In fact, other than BOS &MIA there are NO contenders that are small.
This notion that the NBA game has changed in recent years to small quicker lineups is really an oversimplification. It is a trend but is no means the rule as far as winning. Indeed, small centers have always been around: Bill Russell, Willis Reed, Wes Unseld.
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No team is going to beat a healthy Heat trying to "small ball" against them.
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Are people really complaining about KG at center? ****.
KG has been the best part of our team after Rondo.
The problem is we don't have a backup center.
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Small ball nearly gave me and everyone else at the Garden a heart attack tonight. The Celts were up 14 and it was time to rest KG. So what does Doc do? He throws this lineup on the floor -- Rondo, Lee, Pierce, Green and Bass. Are you kidding me? OKC cut the lead from 14 to 6 when this lineup was on the floor, with lots of easy buckets. Doc called timeout and got KG back in. OKC did cut it to three, but KG was the difference in the end, playing great D, grabbing boards, and hitting a key bucket and free throws. There is absolutely no reason Doc had to have that tiny ball lineup on the floor tonight.
This. Regardless of how many true centers are in the league, for our defense and rebounding to work, we need 2 real bigs on the floor. KG and Bass, Wilcox and Bass, Wilcox and Sullinger, KG and Sullinger. When we go to Green or Pierce at the 4, we just get sliced going to the basket, and killed on the boards. The plus/minus numbers support what's obvious with our own eyes:
Garnett and Wilcox are each + 11.5, and Green is -6.
This has always been Doc's flaw as a coach -- he can only see the potential of small ball, some kind of mythical team that is flying in transition -- whereas he can't see the reality of C's small ball -- destroyed on defense, and unable to rebound period. Scottie Pippen is not walking through that door!
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I agree with this comment. I think KG has been awesome at center. I think we need a better BACK-UP center. That is why the Gortat rumors don't make much sense to me. I can't see us bringing him in at the money he makes to be a back-up to KG.
At this point in his career, I don't see KG being as effective if he plays PF. KG is a mismatch for us against most centers. Gortat isn't quick enough to guard the LJ's or other quick PF's if they cross match on D.
I would still love to get Gortat, he is a good tough player, and would fit in with the C's. I just don't see shipping out AB (who would help with the dribble penetration issues) for Gortat.
Are people really complaining about KG at center? ****.
KG has been the best part of our team after Rondo.
The problem is we don't have a backup center.
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With KG at C and he is great at C, we routinely get beat inside lately. I think we need either a C to push KG to 4 or a starting 4. Doing so would help against the dribble penetration and help us on the boards.
Gortat would be a slight improvement over say Perk in terms of rebounds and blocks and scoring. Statistically he beat's Perk in these areas even healthy Perk of a few years ago.
I don't want to sell the farm for Gortat. I think Bass is servicable but better suited off the bench. I would like to see us start Wilcox and KG but it has not happened.
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changing Garnett to center is partially what saved our season last year...at this point in his career he is a Center...just like Tim duncan is.
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With KG at center, Boston becomes a finesse team. They win defensively with quickness. Not power. With guys like Avery Bradley and with forwards like a Josh Smith.
They don't play defense in the same way as they did when Perk was here (power based defense). They do it differently and they can still be an excellent defensive team. It's just a different sort of defensive system.
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With KG at center, Boston becomes a finesse team. They win defensively with quickness. Not power. With guys like Avery Bradley and with forwards like a Josh Smith.
They don't play defense in the same way as they did when Perk was here (power based defense). They do it differently and they can still be an excellent defensive team. It's just a different sort of defensive system.
ya, we were a top defensive team last year with Garnett at center....where it really benefits us is offensively where Garnett has more speed/quickness than most centers out there.
I think it also plays into the change in the nba as well...there arent many "big" teams out there where KG at center is a liability....teams are smaller/more athletic
even teams like the Chicago bulls with a stable of bigs, You would say that Noah is undersized
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We never would've won in 08 without the Rondo-Ray-Pierce-Posey-KG lineup, so don't tell me you can't use small ball unless you have LBJ.
Doc is overusing small ball now so that he can work the kinks out, because having a small lineup (like the one we used effectively in the 08 playoffs) will be extremely useful in the playoffs.
Gortat would be a slight improvement over say Perk in terms of rebounds and blocks and scoring.
Gortat has range on his jumper and is a serious threat rolling to the hoop. He's much more than a slight improvement offensively- there is no comparison between the two on that side of the ball.
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Two points.
Gortat and KG starting would work out just fine. When KG goes to the bench for Bass or Sullinger we still have a legit big. When KG comes back then Gortat sits and we still have a legit big who can play interior defense, block shots and rebound.
Perimeter defense has been our achilles this season next to rebounding. Last year we had Pietrus, Bradley and this year we have Jet, Lee. Pairing them with Rondo, Pierce/Green hasnt given us the ability to play small ball. When Bradley comes back we should improve some but probably noy enough IMHO.
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We can only play the style of ball that the players Danny Ainge gathers allows us to play.
Ainge has gathered a group of rotational players that are undersized and outside shooters. Except for Garnett there is no size in the rotation. There isn't a great rebounder in the rotation. There is one PG in the rotation, 4 SGs, 2 SF, 2 undersized PFs and 2 regular sized PFs and no centers.
Complain about small ball all you want but what choice does Doc have given where the quality of talent is in the roster.
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we[re not playing small ball. the entire league is small playing a power forward at center.
Really?
Tyson Chandler
Brook Lopez
Andrea Bargnani
Andrew Bynum
Monroe
Hibbert
Noah
Marc Gasol
Nene
Dalembert
If Nene, Noah, Monroe, and Bargs are true Cs then KG is a true center.
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SA isn't small. Memphis has a true Center in Gasol. NYC isn't small. MIA C is small . OKC C is 6'10", that is not small BTW. Get the pattern, not to mention LA.
Thanks for proving my point Lightspeed, not all contenders are small.
New York is small, they're playing Melo entirely at PF. Essentially the same lineup that Miami is using, except JR Smith is smaller than Battier even.
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No team is going to beat a healthy Heat trying to "small ball" against them.
I think it is do-able if the team has an elite level wing defender that can harass Lebron sufficiently. Trouble is, Bruce Bowen and James Posey have retired and Metta World Peace is not that guy anymore. Only Tony Allen comes to mind as a possibility now and he is too small to deal with a post up game.
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No team is going to beat a healthy Heat trying to "small ball" against them.
I think it is do-able if the team has an elite level wing defender that can harass Lebron sufficiently. Trouble is, Bruce Bowen and James Posey have retired and Metta World Peace is not that guy anymore. Only Tony Allen comes to mind as a possibility now and he is too small to deal with a post up game.
Honestly I'm trying to think who can defend LeBron best in the league.
Pierce and Gerald Wallace come to mind. I'm trying to think of other candidates. Maybe Carmelo if he's engaged during the entire game, but that's not usually how he plays.
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HEAT have won one title, hardly a great record of a template to win with. Anyone can win 50 games with LeBron period.
NYC is only small because Amare is out, they still have a seven footer in Chandler. Your wrong again, don't you get tired of it?
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HEAT have won one title, hardly a great record of a template to win with. Anyone can win 50 games with LeBron period.
NYC is only small because Amare is out, they still have a seven footer in Chandler. Your wrong again, don't you get tired of it?
But Amare's always out.
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The problem isn't KG.
KG is big enough to be the Celtics C. He is talented enough to be the Celtics PF.
The issue are the other BIG MEN. They all have uses, but none of them can protect the lane.
And when two of them (or when one of them and Green) are out there, the defense falls apart. Against good teams in the playoffs, it can be devastating. It puts to much pressure on KG building lead.
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The issue are the other BIG MEN. They all have uses, but none of them can protect the lane.
This, TP.
Sullinger is not a shot blocker. Neither is Bass. Guys who get these guys low if they can shoot over them eat their lunch. Green is easy for true PF's to back down.
Big Baby could at least chest up guys and use his bulk to compensate some for his faults. He also was a wiz at charges. Bass is a way better shooter than Baby. Sullinger is a better passer. Green is more mobile. But he trumped them all at positional defense.
O'Neal was a shadow of himself but he could clog space. The present lineup are paper tigers on defense and protecting the lane. Sully shows some knack for charges and drawing them but that is going to be risky with the refs calling flops.
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I don't know what it is but you cannot rebound without 2 big guys hitting the boards and I still believe rebounding is very very important. Sometimes Doc is too stubborn for his own good.
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there is no small ball in the league. thats why theres no more center designation in the NBA All Star game, because every contender has a prototypical center, right? lol
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No team is going to beat a healthy Heat trying to "small ball" against them.
I think it is do-able if the team has an elite level wing defender that can harass Lebron sufficiently. Trouble is, Bruce Bowen and James Posey have retired and Metta World Peace is not that guy anymore. Only Tony Allen comes to mind as a possibility now and he is too small to deal with a post up game.
Honestly I'm trying to think who can defend LeBron best in the league.
Pierce and Gerald Wallace come to mind. I'm trying to think of other candidates. Maybe Carmelo if he's engaged during the entire game, but that's not usually how he plays.
Mbah a Moute
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HEAT have won one title, hardly a great record of a template to win with. Anyone can win 50 games with LeBron period.
NYC is only small because Amare is out, they still have a seven footer in Chandler. Your wrong again, don't you get tired of it?
It's because when Amare is in, NYC isn't a contender anymore.
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The problem isn't KG.
KG is big enough to be the Celtics C. He is talented enough to be the Celtics PF.
The issue are the other BIG MEN. They all have uses, but none of them can protect the lane.
And when two of them (or when one of them and Green) are out there, the defense falls apart. Against good teams in the playoffs, it can be devastating. It puts to much pressure on KG building lead.
Thank you, this is basically my point. It is devastating and we need to make adjustments by way of trade or rotation change to overcome this. I just dont see a combination of our current bigs or smalls that doesnt include KG being on the floor having the ability to compete with the upper tier teams on a nightly basis.
I know we just beat OKC, but that was a rare exception resulting from a big game by Jeff Green and some uncharacteristic timely jump shooting. We cannot IMO expect this result every nite.
It would help a great deal if we played better perimeter defense (Bradley) and Jeff showed some consistency. We were still outrebounded and without the jumpers/3pters falling we would have likely been toast.
We gotta get back to attacking the basket, rebounding and playing better perimeter D.
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No team is going to beat a healthy Heat trying to "small ball" against them.
I think it is do-able if the team has an elite level wing defender that can harass Lebron sufficiently. Trouble is, Bruce Bowen and James Posey have retired and Metta World Peace is not that guy anymore. Only Tony Allen comes to mind as a possibility now and he is too small to deal with a post up game.
Honestly I'm trying to think who can defend LeBron best in the league.
Pierce and Gerald Wallace come to mind. I'm trying to think of other candidates. Maybe Carmelo if he's engaged during the entire game, but that's not usually how he plays.
Mbah a Moute
Havent seen enough of him, but I will take your word for it.
Cant believe I forgot Gerald Wallace and of course we include Pierce. Problem is, Wallace has been on a bad team until this year. Advantage Lebron against Paul also because we rely on PP to be our go to scorer and LBJ stopper. Heavy lifting involved there.
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No team is going to beat a healthy Heat trying to "small ball" against them.
I think it is do-able if the team has an elite level wing defender that can harass Lebron sufficiently. Trouble is, Bruce Bowen and James Posey have retired and Metta World Peace is not that guy anymore. Only Tony Allen comes to mind as a possibility now and he is too small to deal with a post up game.
Honestly I'm trying to think who can defend LeBron best in the league.
Pierce and Gerald Wallace come to mind. I'm trying to think of other candidates. Maybe Carmelo if he's engaged during the entire game, but that's not usually how he plays.
Mbah a Moute
Oh yeah I should have thought of him, he's hurt and not playing probably why he didn't pop to mind.
Shame he never figured out the corner three of the "defensive wing" formula. If he did that they could play him a heck of a lot more.
4 years 18 million dollars, solid contract if he was on a team that could make some noise in the playoffs.
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speaking of small ball players. I could be happy trading LEE off for a center and playing Joseph.