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Celtics Basketball => Celtics Talk => Topic started by: Lightskinsmurf on November 21, 2012, 06:03:39 PM

Title: Trading Bradley Would Be Beyond Stupid.
Post by: Lightskinsmurf on November 21, 2012, 06:03:39 PM
People obviously have short memories around here. You're clearly forgetting how great of a team we are with bradley playing next to rondo. We were a completely different team when you look at the numbers.

It was night and day. Granted LEE is an upgrade over ray allen in every category besides shooting, he still isn't elite like bradley. Would you rather keep AB and Bass and sign KM or birdman or trade both ab and bass for gortat?

 If it comes down to trading AB for gortat its simply not worth it and we will regret it later on i assure you. Bradley and Rondo are our future AND our NOW. We can win with this team, i know we can. Trade AB and im letting danny have it and all of you who support it.  >:(
Title: Re: Trading Bradley Would Be Beyond Stupid.
Post by: Edgar on November 21, 2012, 06:13:45 PM
I am still wondering When bradley becomes elite
as in elite
and if someone think it wont be negative at least absolutly
negative
Title: Re: Trading Bradley Would Be Beyond Stupid.
Post by: SHAQATTACK on November 21, 2012, 06:24:00 PM
TP.... AMEN bro
Title: Re: Trading Bradley Would Be Beyond Stupid.
Post by: alajet on November 21, 2012, 06:32:34 PM
Bradley is only elite for a team that ranks 28th in blocked shots.
Technically, as we don't have a keeper center to face the penetrating players, the only way to make their job tougher on defense is to put pressure on opposition. Bradley does exactly that. We're trying to make up for that undersized frontcourt of ours.

If Bradley was already elite around the league, Danny Ainge would ship him to Charlotte for their lottery pick, get MKG and give this team the freaking athleticism we need.

The kid still has to prove himself. He has shown a good performance for a not so long period, and whether he will take over from where he left or not is a question mark up in the air.
Title: Re: Trading Bradley Would Be Beyond Stupid.
Post by: Lightskinsmurf on November 21, 2012, 06:39:04 PM
Bradley is elite on defense and defense wins championships. We are better on the floor BY A LARGE MARGIN defensively AND offensively when bradley is on the floor. He still has to prove himself on the offensive end but defensively hes as elite as they come. Again, you people have really short memories. You see us struggling now *6-5 without AB mind you* And you think trading our best defensive player besides KG, and BASS for a rebounder will make us the best team in the league. As i said before most of you panic farrrrrr too early and you just want a new toy to play with so you can think the day is saved for a few days until we drop the next game.
Title: Re: Trading Bradley Would Be Beyond Stupid.
Post by: xmuscularghandix on November 21, 2012, 06:47:25 PM
100% Agree.

I love that EVERYBODY was against the Kendrick Perkins trade but now some people think moving this kid would be a good idea...  ::)
Title: Re: Trading Bradley Would Be Beyond Stupid.
Post by: Celtics18 on November 21, 2012, 06:48:52 PM
I've never panicked.  I like this team as is, and I think we can contend for a title.  Avery Bradley is one of my heroes.

Having said that, I think I would trade he and Brandon Bass for Marcin Gortat.  Someone in the other thread called him a top 10 center in the league.  I don't think it's a stretch to say that he might be top five.  I might be completely misguided about how good I think the Polish Hammer is, but that's my take.

Maybe we can give them Lee, Sully, and some draft picks, or something?  I would hate to give up Avery Bradley, but if Phoenix was adamant that he was what it took to get Gortat, I'd do it. 
Title: Re: Trading Bradley Would Be Beyond Stupid.
Post by: Lightskinsmurf on November 21, 2012, 07:02:14 PM
Lee and Sully yeah. Ab and Bass No. This isn't about me liking avery bradley *all tho i do*. This is about me CLEARLY remembering how dominate we were with him on the floor with rondo. Even without rondo he carried us in some games. AB is a huge piece to this team and it will take someone better than gortat for me to even entertain the thought of giving him up.
Title: Re: Trading Bradley Would Be Beyond Stupid.
Post by: wdleehi on November 21, 2012, 07:12:46 PM
I don't think you have to worry.


Good teams are not going to give up a lot for a player who had one short stretch of good play and then got injured. 


Especially when that player is a small SG.



I am not trying to knock Bradley or what he could be.  But at this point, his trade value is not that high that he could be the center piece of a trade for a big man like Gortat. 


And yes, if it was available, I would have no issue giving up AB in a package for a player like Gortat.  Just look at KG's effect on this team when he is on the court or off the court.  The Celtics need that talented player with size more then another SG, no matter how good defensively they are.
Title: Re: Trading Bradley Would Be Beyond Stupid.
Post by: cman88 on November 21, 2012, 07:15:10 PM
the celtics calling card is their defense, and Bradley is quite possibly the best defender besides KG on the team. we posted SCARY defensive numbers with him in the lineup.

I dont think its any coincidence that our first unit defense with 4/5 of the same starters has been pretty average so far this year without him.
Title: Re: Trading Bradley Would Be Beyond Stupid.
Post by: Lightskinsmurf on November 21, 2012, 07:20:34 PM
the celtics calling card is their defense, and Bradley is quite possibly the best defender besides KG on the team. we posted SCARY defensive numbers with him in the lineup.

I dont think its any coincidence that our first unit defense with 4/5 of the same starters has been pretty average so far this year without him.

THIS ^^^
Title: Re: Trading Bradley Would Be Beyond Stupid.
Post by: pearljammer10 on November 21, 2012, 07:22:58 PM
If Bradley needs to be traded to net us a smith, a gortat etc... I do it without thinking twice.
Title: Re: Trading Bradley Would Be Beyond Stupid.
Post by: hpantazo on November 21, 2012, 07:23:27 PM
the celtics calling card is their defense, and Bradley is quite possibly the best defender besides KG on the team. we posted SCARY defensive numbers with him in the lineup.

I dont think its any coincidence that our first unit defense with 4/5 of the same starters has been pretty average so far this year without him.

THIS ^^^

Our team defense for years was also great without him. Just saying. Our defensive slip so far this year cannot be attributed to Bradley being out.
Title: Re: Trading Bradley Would Be Beyond Stupid.
Post by: LarBrd33 on November 21, 2012, 07:25:35 PM
It's only stupid, because he probably has very little trade value.  No sense in trading him if he's not worth anything.  As much as we are hyped up about him... 15 games isn't enough to sell the league on him being a future star.  Doubt we could even land a lotto pick for him.

If some team is as enamored with Bradley as some of the Celtic fans on this board are... then it might be beyond stupid NOT to trade him.  If it means landing a legit star big man, do it.  There is no guarantee that a 6'2 180 pound shooting guard who averaged 7 points and .7 steals is going to be a star in this league.  It's harder to land legit bigs in this league than it is to land undersized shooting guards who can't play point.
Title: Re: Trading Bradley Would Be Beyond Stupid.
Post by: Lightskinsmurf on November 21, 2012, 07:27:51 PM
the celtics calling card is their defense, and Bradley is quite possibly the best defender besides KG on the team. we posted SCARY defensive numbers with him in the lineup.

I dont think its any coincidence that our first unit defense with 4/5 of the same starters has been pretty average so far this year without him.

THIS ^^^

Our team defense for years was also great without him. Just saying. Our defensive slip so far this year cannot be attributed to Bradley being out.

That was when KG and Pierce were a few years younger and we had guys like tony allen on the team. All of which you can no longer say about this team. Fact still remains when bradley is on that court with rondo our defense is SCARY and our overall team play is scary good.
Title: Re: Trading Bradley Would Be Beyond Stupid.
Post by: hpantazo on November 21, 2012, 07:31:21 PM
the celtics calling card is their defense, and Bradley is quite possibly the best defender besides KG on the team. we posted SCARY defensive numbers with him in the lineup.

I dont think its any coincidence that our first unit defense with 4/5 of the same starters has been pretty average so far this year without him.

THIS ^^^

Our team defense for years was also great without him. Just saying. Our defensive slip so far this year cannot be attributed to Bradley being out.

That was when KG and Pierce were a few years younger and we had guys like tony allen on the team. All of which you can no longer say about this team. Fact still remains when bradley is on that court with rondo our defense is SCARY and our overall team play is scary good.

Our defense was also very good last year when Bradley was out. It was good enough to get us to game 7 in the ECF against the eventual champs. I don't buy the theory that our slip this year is because of Bradley, because we sure as heck looked great defensively in the playoffs last year which Bradley missed.
Title: Re: Trading Bradley Would Be Beyond Stupid.
Post by: Lightskinsmurf on November 21, 2012, 07:32:12 PM
It's only stupid, because he probably has very little trade value.  No sense in trading him if he's not worth anything.  As much as we are hyped up about him... 15 games isn't enough to sell the league on him being a future star.  Doubt we could even land a lotto pick for him.

If some team is as enamored with Bradley as some of the Celtic fans on this board are... then it might be beyond stupid NOT to trade him.  If it means landing a legit star big man, do it.  There is no guarantee that a 6'2 180 pound shooting guard who averaged 7 points and .7 steals is going to be a star in this league.  It's harder to land legit bigs in this league than it is to land undersized shooting guards who can't play point.

Nobody is claiming avery bradleys trade value is high. I couldn't care less how other teams around the league feel about avery. All i can tell you is the team i saw out there before bradley got hurt would have taken down the heat. The team i saw out there was the best team in the league until bradley fell. And u wanna break that up, stupid.
Title: Re: Trading Bradley Would Be Beyond Stupid.
Post by: droopdog7 on November 21, 2012, 07:42:11 PM
There is only one player in this league that it would be beyond stupid to trade.  His name is lebron james.  Other than that, the question is, "for who"?

I think Bradley has some value.  And if trading that value gets us value in an area of need, then why not.  The thing that bothers me is the fact that most fans never want to trade players wih value.  Then how the heck do u get value back?
Title: Re: Trading Bradley Would Be Beyond Stupid.
Post by: Lightskinsmurf on November 21, 2012, 07:46:21 PM
Avery Bass KM/Birdman > Gortat
Title: Re: Trading Bradley Would Be Beyond Stupid.
Post by: GreenFaith1819 on November 21, 2012, 07:47:44 PM
I'm glad I'm not a GM.

I'd be VERY hesitant to trade AB...I'd be afraid of the effect it would have on this team - that being his defensive intensity.

I know that if it came to it and he's traded, Danny would be attempting to fill a need, but I shudder at the cost...
Title: Re: Trading Bradley Would Be Beyond Stupid.
Post by: blastoidesroidsnoids on November 21, 2012, 08:01:16 PM
the celtics calling card is their defense, and Bradley is quite possibly the best defender besides KG on the team. we posted SCARY defensive numbers with him in the lineup.

I dont think its any coincidence that our first unit defense with 4/5 of the same starters has been pretty average so far this year without him.

THIS ^^^

Our team defense for years was also great without him. Just saying. Our defensive slip so far this year cannot be attributed to Bradley being out.
and now our defense has no ray allen, and kg and pierce have only gotten less athletic.

I dont think it matters that he is undersized. He, unlike lee, has already proven he can take over games with his D, and that his offense actually works with this roster.

Title: Re: Trading Bradley Would Be Beyond Stupid.
Post by: hpantazo on November 21, 2012, 08:15:18 PM
the celtics calling card is their defense, and Bradley is quite possibly the best defender besides KG on the team. we posted SCARY defensive numbers with him in the lineup.

I dont think its any coincidence that our first unit defense with 4/5 of the same starters has been pretty average so far this year without him.

THIS ^^^

Our team defense for years was also great without him. Just saying. Our defensive slip so far this year cannot be attributed to Bradley being out.
and now our defense has no ray allen, and kg and pierce have only gotten less athletic.

I dont think it matters that he is undersized. He, unlike lee, has already proven he can take over games with his D, and that his offense actually works with this roster.

Ray was never, ever known for his defense, even before coming here, and let's not even talk about Ray's defense last year during the  playoffs.
Title: Re: Trading Bradley Would Be Beyond Stupid.
Post by: wdleehi on November 21, 2012, 08:31:06 PM
Avery Bass KM/Birdman > Gortat



When is the last time Martin or Birdman were starting caliber big men?
Title: Re: Trading Bradley Would Be Beyond Stupid.
Post by: csfansince60s on November 21, 2012, 08:32:19 PM
Avery Bass KM/Birdman > Gortat

While I would be very hesitant to trade AB, KMart/Birdman and Gortat>>>Avery and Bass.
Title: Re: Trading Bradley Would Be Beyond Stupid.
Post by: wdleehi on November 21, 2012, 08:38:08 PM
Do we have to put expectations on players so unbelievable high?



First, Green is an all-star player waiting to be unleashed.  He was just never used right with the Thunder.  He never had the time to be comfortable with the Celtics.


Then there is Sullinger.  He will be a starter day one.  He will fix all the Celtics rebounding and low post offensive issues.


Now Bradley.  He will fix all the issues the Celtics have.  He will put the Celtics over the top of the Heat.  He is the reason the Celtics will be great on defense. 



Why put on expectations on players that have never lived up to those expectations to begin with?  It only sets you up for disappointment when they don't play up to these unrealistic goals.  Even when the player is playing within the expectations and wants of the team, you the fan will be disappointed in that player for failing your expectation.   
Title: Re: Trading Bradley Would Be Beyond Stupid.
Post by: SHAQATTACK on November 21, 2012, 08:39:00 PM
Trading AB would be beyond stupid ...but trading GREEN ASAP would be the smartest thing ever... :'(
Title: Re: Trading Bradley Would Be Beyond Stupid.
Post by: Change on November 21, 2012, 08:40:40 PM
Yrading AB would be beyond stupid ...but trading GREEN ASAP would be the smartest thing ever... :'(

 ;D Yes and Yes TP
Title: Re: Trading Bradley Would Be Beyond Stupid.
Post by: Lightskinsmurf on November 21, 2012, 08:47:32 PM
Do we have to put expectations on players so unbelievable high?



First, Green is an all-star player waiting to be unleashed.  He was just never used right with the Thunder.  He never had the time to be comfortable with the Celtics.


Then there is Sullinger.  He will be a starter day one.  He will fix all the Celtics rebounding and low post offensive issues.


Now Bradley.  He will fix all the issues the Celtics have.  He will put the Celtics over the top of the Heat.  He is the reason the Celtics will be great on defense. 



Why put on expectations on players that have never lived up to those expectations to begin with?  It only sets you up for disappointment when they don't play up to these unrealistic goals.  Even when the player is playing within the expectations and wants of the team, you the fan will be disappointed in that player for failing your expectation.   

First of all, i never once thought green would be an allstar. I thought he should be playing better than he is now that's about it. I wanted sully to start over bass mainly because i don't like bass starting and sully can rebound. Avery bradley is another story.

I have already seen how he plays with us. Are you really trying to tell me he was elite on defense before but when he comes back he won't be? I think maybe you should go watch some tape on our team when AB was in the lineup because you clearly have forgotten how unbelievable good we were. Also, you're clearly not a believer in avery so obviously you love the gortat idea.
Title: Re: Trading Bradley Would Be Beyond Stupid.
Post by: TheBig5 on November 21, 2012, 08:47:35 PM
Yrading AB would be beyond stupid ...but trading GREEN ASAP would be the smartest thing ever... :'(

I would have had no problem if Green was given a one year deal for 8-9 million, too bad Ainge decided to give him a long term deal. His contract looks worse every day.
Title: Re: Trading Bradley Would Be Beyond Stupid.
Post by: blastoidesroidsnoids on November 21, 2012, 08:50:31 PM
the celtics calling card is their defense, and Bradley is quite possibly the best defender besides KG on the team. we posted SCARY defensive numbers with him in the lineup.

I dont think its any coincidence that our first unit defense with 4/5 of the same starters has been pretty average so far this year without him.

THIS ^^^

Our team defense for years was also great without him. Just saying. Our defensive slip so far this year cannot be attributed to Bradley being out.
and now our defense has no ray allen, and kg and pierce have only gotten less athletic.

I dont think it matters that he is undersized. He, unlike lee, has already proven he can take over games with his D, and that his offense actually works with this roster.

Ray was never, ever known for his defense, even before coming here, and let's not even talk about Ray's defense last year during the  playoffs.
Completely not true
Title: Re: Trading Bradley Would Be Beyond Stupid.
Post by: Lightskinsmurf on November 21, 2012, 08:51:37 PM
Once ab is back i think we already have a team that can beat the heat. So forgive me for not being so fast to wanna break that up.
Title: Re: Trading Bradley Would Be Beyond Stupid.
Post by: wdleehi on November 21, 2012, 08:52:15 PM
Do we have to put expectations on players so unbelievable high?



First, Green is an all-star player waiting to be unleashed.  He was just never used right with the Thunder.  He never had the time to be comfortable with the Celtics.


Then there is Sullinger.  He will be a starter day one.  He will fix all the Celtics rebounding and low post offensive issues.


Now Bradley.  He will fix all the issues the Celtics have.  He will put the Celtics over the top of the Heat.  He is the reason the Celtics will be great on defense. 



Why put on expectations on players that have never lived up to those expectations to begin with?  It only sets you up for disappointment when they don't play up to these unrealistic goals.  Even when the player is playing within the expectations and wants of the team, you the fan will be disappointed in that player for failing your expectation.   

First of all, i never once thought green would be an allstar. I thought he should be playing better than he is now that's about it. I wanted sully to start over bass mainly because i don't like bass starting and sully can rebound. Avery bradley is another story.

I have already seen how he plays with us. Are you really trying to tell me he was elite on defense before but when he comes back he won't be? I think maybe you should go watch some tape on our team when AB was in the lineup because you clearly have forgotten how unbelievable good we were. Also, you're clearly not a believer in avery so obviously you love the gortat idea.


This isn't a list of things you said but a list of things that have been pushed around here by different posters.


And I know how good AB can be on defense.  We saw it for those 15 games. 


But 15 games is enough to call him the difference maker against the Heat? 


Has he really shown enough in his career to be called a star?


I have high hopes of what he can develop into, but for now, I will be happy to see him back on floor being a defensive pest and developing a respectable jump shot.  Anything more then that is just gravy right now. 
Title: Re: Trading Bradley Would Be Beyond Stupid.
Post by: Lightskinsmurf on November 21, 2012, 09:03:48 PM
Do we have to put expectations on players so unbelievable high?



First, Green is an all-star player waiting to be unleashed.  He was just never used right with the Thunder.  He never had the time to be comfortable with the Celtics.


Then there is Sullinger.  He will be a starter day one.  He will fix all the Celtics rebounding and low post offensive issues.


Now Bradley.  He will fix all the issues the Celtics have.  He will put the Celtics over the top of the Heat.  He is the reason the Celtics will be great on defense. 



Why put on expectations on players that have never lived up to those expectations to begin with?  It only sets you up for disappointment when they don't play up to these unrealistic goals.  Even when the player is playing within the expectations and wants of the team, you the fan will be disappointed in that player for failing your expectation.   

First of all, i never once thought green would be an allstar. I thought he should be playing better than he is now that's about it. I wanted sully to start over bass mainly because i don't like bass starting and sully can rebound. Avery bradley is another story.

I have already seen how he plays with us. Are you really trying to tell me he was elite on defense before but when he comes back he won't be? I think maybe you should go watch some tape on our team when AB was in the lineup because you clearly have forgotten how unbelievable good we were. Also, you're clearly not a believer in avery so obviously you love the gortat idea.


This isn't a list of things you said but a list of things that have been pushed around here by different posters.


And I know how good AB can be on defense.  We saw it for those 15 games. 


But 15 games is enough to call him the difference maker against the Heat? 


Has he really shown enough in his career to be called a star?


I have high hopes of what he can develop into, but for now, I will be happy to see him back on floor being a defensive pest and developing a respectable jump shot.  Anything more then that is just gravy right now.

A star on the defensive end yes. Also i agree with the second part i put in bold.
Title: Re: Trading Bradley Would Be Beyond Stupid.
Post by: Who on November 22, 2012, 05:35:38 AM
When is the last time Martin or Birdman were starting caliber big men?
I think Kenyon Martin still is a starting caliber power forward. Probably a minutes limited one (20-25mpg) rather than a 30-35mpg guy. Kenyon's strong defense and solid possession creation (plus solid passing) make him a good glue guy as a starting PF.

Chris Andersen has never and will never be a starting caliber player. Good backup center though. 
Title: Re: Trading Bradley Would Be Beyond Stupid.
Post by: cman88 on November 22, 2012, 08:53:54 AM
I honestly belive that this team will REALLY start to improve once Bradley comes back.

for a team that prides itself on defense, Bradley will make a huge difference in stopping dribble penetration. that will allow our bigs to guard their guy/the rim and NOT have to help out.

thats why our defense became so scary with him last year...Rondo cant consistently stay in front of his man. But if you have someone like bradley who can stop penetration it makes Rondo's job easier.

also, our team looks lethargic out there...Bradley's effort on defense is infectious and just makes EVERYONE on the team play better.
Title: Re: Trading Bradley Would Be Beyond Stupid.
Post by: gpap on November 22, 2012, 09:17:23 AM
Can we please calm down with the Avery Bradley hype? You would think some fans think he's the second coming of Bill Russell
Title: Re: Trading Bradley Would Be Beyond Stupid.
Post by: hpantazo on November 22, 2012, 09:27:45 AM
Can we please calm down with the Avery Bradley hype? You would think some fans think he's the second coming of Bill Russell

the longer he's out, the more the legend of Avery Bradley grows! LOL
Title: Re: Trading Bradley Would Be Beyond Stupid.
Post by: gpap on November 22, 2012, 09:36:14 AM
Can we please calm down with the Avery Bradley hype? You would think some fans think he's the second coming of Bill Russell

the longer he's out, the more the legend of Avery Bradley grows! LOL

Lol, no kidding. I am still waiting for someone to start the "Michael Jordan couldn't carry Avery Bradley's jock strap" thread.
Title: Re: Trading Bradley Would Be Beyond Stupid.
Post by: gpap on November 22, 2012, 10:02:44 AM
It's only stupid, because he probably has very little trade value.  No sense in trading him if he's not worth anything.  As much as we are hyped up about him... 15 games isn't enough to sell the league on him being a future star.  Doubt we could even land a lotto pick for him.

If some team is as enamored with Bradley as some of the Celtic fans on this board are... then it might be beyond stupid NOT to trade him.  If it means landing a legit star big man, do it.  There is no guarantee that a 6'2 180 pound shooting guard who averaged 7 points and .7 steals is going to be a star in this league.  It's harder to land legit bigs in this league than it is to land undersized shooting guards who can't play point.

Nobody is claiming avery bradleys trade value is high. I couldn't care less how other teams around the league feel about avery. All i can tell you is the team i saw out there before bradley got hurt would have taken down the heat. The team i saw out there was the best team in the league until bradley fell. And u wanna break that up, stupid.

What exactly are you basing this on? The ONE game back in early April when the Celtics beat Miami in Boston where Bradley rejected Wade? Way too small of a sample size.
Title: Re: Trading Bradley Would Be Beyond Stupid.
Post by: CoachBo on November 22, 2012, 10:16:33 AM
It's only stupid, because he probably has very little trade value.  No sense in trading him if he's not worth anything.  As much as we are hyped up about him... 15 games isn't enough to sell the league on him being a future star.  Doubt we could even land a lotto pick for him.

If some team is as enamored with Bradley as some of the Celtic fans on this board are... then it might be beyond stupid NOT to trade him.  If it means landing a legit star big man, do it.  There is no guarantee that a 6'2 180 pound shooting guard who averaged 7 points and .7 steals is going to be a star in this league.  It's harder to land legit bigs in this league than it is to land undersized shooting guards who can't play point.

Nobody is claiming avery bradleys trade value is high. I couldn't care less how other teams around the league feel about avery. All i can tell you is the team i saw out there before bradley got hurt would have taken down the heat. The team i saw out there was the best team in the league until bradley fell. And u wanna break that up, stupid.

What exactly are you basing this on? The ONE game back in early April when the Celtics beat Miami in Boston where Bradley rejected Wade? Way too small of a sample size.

This blog hyperbolizing about a young, largely unproven Celtics player?

Who knew?

 ;D

With that said, I agree entirely with you. We're going nowhere rebounding the basketball and defending like this. The latter may improve with time; the former isn't going to. If Bradley can be used to upgrade both, then I am 100 percent behind it.
Title: Re: Trading Bradley Would Be Beyond Stupid.
Post by: Edgar on November 22, 2012, 10:17:19 AM
we will beat heat when Bradley stops LeBron
Title: Re: Trading Bradley Would Be Beyond Stupid.
Post by: Lightskinsmurf on November 22, 2012, 11:13:58 AM
It's only stupid, because he probably has very little trade value.  No sense in trading him if he's not worth anything.  As much as we are hyped up about him... 15 games isn't enough to sell the league on him being a future star.  Doubt we could even land a lotto pick for him.

If some team is as enamored with Bradley as some of the Celtic fans on this board are... then it might be beyond stupid NOT to trade him.  If it means landing a legit star big man, do it.  There is no guarantee that a 6'2 180 pound shooting guard who averaged 7 points and .7 steals is going to be a star in this league.  It's harder to land legit bigs in this league than it is to land undersized shooting guards who can't play point.

Nobody is claiming avery bradleys trade value is high. I couldn't care less how other teams around the league feel about avery. All i can tell you is the team i saw out there before bradley got hurt would have taken down the heat. The team i saw out there was the best team in the league until bradley fell. And u wanna break that up, stupid.

What exactly are you basing this on? The ONE game back in early April when the Celtics beat Miami in Boston where Bradley rejected Wade? Way too small of a sample size.

You're just proving my point. Your memory is clearly short.
Title: Re: Trading Bradley Would Be Beyond Stupid.
Post by: Lightskinsmurf on November 22, 2012, 11:17:28 AM
Everything im saying can be backed up by numbers and facts. We were a FAR better team when bradley was in the starting lineup. We turned our season around once kg moved to center AND bradley started. KG is still at center now...........but no AB and we're struggling on the defensive end. Once AB comes back and starts lighting it up on the defensive end and you see our team improve down don't hop on the bandwagon, go find another.
Title: Re: Trading Bradley Would Be Beyond Stupid.
Post by: gpap on November 22, 2012, 11:26:40 AM
It's only stupid, because he probably has very little trade value.  No sense in trading him if he's not worth anything.  As much as we are hyped up about him... 15 games isn't enough to sell the league on him being a future star.  Doubt we could even land a lotto pick for him.

If some team is as enamored with Bradley as some of the Celtic fans on this board are... then it might be beyond stupid NOT to trade him.  If it means landing a legit star big man, do it.  There is no guarantee that a 6'2 180 pound shooting guard who averaged 7 points and .7 steals is going to be a star in this league.  It's harder to land legit bigs in this league than it is to land undersized shooting guards who can't play point.

Nobody is claiming avery bradleys trade value is high. I couldn't care less how other teams around the league feel about avery. All i can tell you is the team i saw out there before bradley got hurt would have taken down the heat. The team i saw out there was the best team in the league until bradley fell. And u wanna break that up, stupid.

What exactly are you basing this on? The ONE game back in early April when the Celtics beat Miami in Boston where Bradley rejected Wade? Way too small of a sample size.

You're just proving my point. Your memory is clearly short.

Ok, can you please refresh my memory then? For some reason, other than that Miami game and a game vs Orlando last January in Boston when Rondo/Ray Allen were injured and Bradley was all over Jameer Nelson, I am missing the evidence as to how Bradley is the franchise player you're describing.
Title: Re: Trading Bradley Would Be Beyond Stupid.
Post by: Celtics4ever on November 22, 2012, 11:29:42 AM
Depends what we got back, such a blanket comment is stupid,  I would trade Bradley for the right player.   If we could get Howard, James, Wade or Smith I would do it in a heartbeat.
Title: Re: Trading Bradley Would Be Beyond Stupid.
Post by: Lightskinsmurf on November 22, 2012, 11:51:07 AM
Depends what we got back, such a blanket comment is stupidI would trade Bradley for the right player.   If we could get Howard, James, Wade or Smith I would do it in a heartbeat.

...........No, really, tell me more.
Title: Re: Trading Bradley Would Be Beyond Stupid.
Post by: Lightskinsmurf on November 22, 2012, 11:55:27 AM
It's only stupid, because he probably has very little trade value.  No sense in trading him if he's not worth anything.  As much as we are hyped up about him... 15 games isn't enough to sell the league on him being a future star.  Doubt we could even land a lotto pick for him.

If some team is as enamored with Bradley as some of the Celtic fans on this board are... then it might be beyond stupid NOT to trade him.  If it means landing a legit star big man, do it.  There is no guarantee that a 6'2 180 pound shooting guard who averaged 7 points and .7 steals is going to be a star in this league.  It's harder to land legit bigs in this league than it is to land undersized shooting guards who can't play point.

Nobody is claiming avery bradleys trade value is high. I couldn't care less how other teams around the league feel about avery. All i can tell you is the team i saw out there before bradley got hurt would have taken down the heat. The team i saw out there was the best team in the league until bradley fell. And u wanna break that up, stupid.

What exactly are you basing this on? The ONE game back in early April when the Celtics beat Miami in Boston where Bradley rejected Wade? Way too small of a sample size.

You're just proving my point. Your memory is clearly short.

Ok, can you please refresh my memory then? For some reason, other than that Miami game and a game vs Orlando last January in Boston when Rondo/Ray Allen were injured and Bradley was all over Jameer Nelson, I am missing the evidence as to how Bradley is the franchise player you're describing.

Every game where bradley started. Apparently you only remember the miami game. I guess you only watch nationally televised games which explains alot. Nobody said anything about him being a franchise player. I said he was elite on the defensive end. Any moron with eyes can see that. Well, almost every moron.
Title: Re: Trading Bradley Would Be Beyond Stupid.
Post by: BballTim on November 22, 2012, 12:19:45 PM
It's only stupid, because he probably has very little trade value.  No sense in trading him if he's not worth anything.  As much as we are hyped up about him... 15 games isn't enough to sell the league on him being a future star.  Doubt we could even land a lotto pick for him.

If some team is as enamored with Bradley as some of the Celtic fans on this board are... then it might be beyond stupid NOT to trade him.  If it means landing a legit star big man, do it.  There is no guarantee that a 6'2 180 pound shooting guard who averaged 7 points and .7 steals is going to be a star in this league.  It's harder to land legit bigs in this league than it is to land undersized shooting guards who can't play point.

Nobody is claiming avery bradleys trade value is high. I couldn't care less how other teams around the league feel about avery. All i can tell you is the team i saw out there before bradley got hurt would have taken down the heat. The team i saw out there was the best team in the league until bradley fell. And u wanna break that up, stupid.

What exactly are you basing this on? The ONE game back in early April when the Celtics beat Miami in Boston where Bradley rejected Wade? Way too small of a sample size.

You're just proving my point. Your memory is clearly short.

Ok, can you please refresh my memory then? For some reason, other than that Miami game and a game vs Orlando last January in Boston when Rondo/Ray Allen were injured and Bradley was all over Jameer Nelson, I am missing the evidence as to how Bradley is the franchise player you're describing.

  I don't think he said anything about Bradley being a franchise player. He's probably talking about how well the team played with Bradley in the lineup late in the season and in the playoffs. We were about 12 points a game better in the playoffs with Bradley playing than Ray, those points make a difference in a 7 game series.
Title: Re: Trading Bradley Would Be Beyond Stupid.
Post by: BballTim on November 22, 2012, 12:23:25 PM
It's only stupid, because he probably has very little trade value.  No sense in trading him if he's not worth anything.  As much as we are hyped up about him... 15 games isn't enough to sell the league on him being a future star.  Doubt we could even land a lotto pick for him.

  You seem to expect him to be somewhere between a backup and the good scoring, very good shooting and defending sg we saw last spring. I don't see why his being valued at anywhere in that range would surprise you.
Title: Re: Trading Bradley Would Be Beyond Stupid.
Post by: Lightskinsmurf on November 22, 2012, 12:26:14 PM
It's only stupid, because he probably has very little trade value.  No sense in trading him if he's not worth anything.  As much as we are hyped up about him... 15 games isn't enough to sell the league on him being a future star.  Doubt we could even land a lotto pick for him.

If some team is as enamored with Bradley as some of the Celtic fans on this board are... then it might be beyond stupid NOT to trade him.  If it means landing a legit star big man, do it.  There is no guarantee that a 6'2 180 pound shooting guard who averaged 7 points and .7 steals is going to be a star in this league.  It's harder to land legit bigs in this league than it is to land undersized shooting guards who can't play point.

Nobody is claiming avery bradleys trade value is high. I couldn't care less how other teams around the league feel about avery. All i can tell you is the team i saw out there before bradley got hurt would have taken down the heat. The team i saw out there was the best team in the league until bradley fell. And u wanna break that up, stupid.

What exactly are you basing this on? The ONE game back in early April when the Celtics beat Miami in Boston where Bradley rejected Wade? Way too small of a sample size.

You're just proving my point. Your memory is clearly short.

Ok, can you please refresh my memory then? For some reason, other than that Miami game and a game vs Orlando last January in Boston when Rondo/Ray Allen were injured and Bradley was all over Jameer Nelson, I am missing the evidence as to how Bradley is the franchise player you're describing.

  I don't think he said anything about Bradley being a franchise player. He's probably talking about how well the team played with Bradley in the lineup late in the season and in the playoffs. We were about 12 points a game better in the playoffs with Bradley playing than Ray, those points make a difference in a 7 game series.

Wow, somebody that can actually read and comprehend on these forums!!?  :o TP good sir.
Title: Re: Trading Bradley Would Be Beyond Stupid.
Post by: soap07 on November 22, 2012, 01:26:24 PM
Quote
  I don't think he said anything about Bradley being a franchise player. He's probably talking about how well the team played with Bradley in the lineup late in the season and in the playoffs. We were about 12 points a game better in the playoffs with Bradley playing than Ray, those points make a difference in a 7 game series.

Actually, you know what makes a bigger difference in a 7 game series? One team, which already wasn't particularly deep to begin with - especially in the frontcourt - missing its perennial All Star big man for the majority of the series.
Title: Re: Trading Bradley Would Be Beyond Stupid.
Post by: BballTim on November 22, 2012, 01:51:00 PM
Quote
  I don't think he said anything about Bradley being a franchise player. He's probably talking about how well the team played with Bradley in the lineup late in the season and in the playoffs. We were about 12 points a game better in the playoffs with Bradley playing than Ray, those points make a difference in a 7 game series.

Actually, you know what makes a bigger difference in a 7 game series? One team, which already wasn't particularly deep to begin with - especially in the frontcourt - missing its perennial All Star big man for the majority of the series.

  Survey says... No. Bradley in the playoffs had about a +15 on/off, Bosh had about a +3.
Title: Re: Trading Bradley Would Be Beyond Stupid.
Post by: soap07 on November 22, 2012, 02:59:37 PM
Quote
  Survey says... No. Bradley in the playoffs had about a +15 on/off, Bosh had about a +3.

So you are under the impression - because of on/off numbers of both players in one playoff run against different teams in entirely different situations - is indicative that Avery Bradley had a bigger impact on the court than Chris Bosh - in spite of the fact that one player has had two seasons in the NBA and less than one quarter of a competent season....and the other player is a top 20 player in the NBA and has been for years.

And that it is complete coincidence that Miami outplayed us thoroughly in the games that Bosh was back fully.

One guy is a legitimate cornerstone of a championship team whose backups were Joel Anthony, Udonis Haslem and Eddy Curry.

The other guy was, at his best, a solid role player and was actually a pretty poor player the majority of his playing time with the Celtics. If Bradley didn't see the court, that just meant more Rondo, Ray, etc. If Bosh didn't see the court, that meant more Anthony/Haslem.

We're going to sit here and seriously pretend that Bradley would've made the difference last year. I just don't get it sometimes.



Title: Re: Trading Bradley Would Be Beyond Stupid.
Post by: BballTim on November 22, 2012, 03:33:05 PM
Quote
  Survey says... No. Bradley in the playoffs had about a +15 on/off, Bosh had about a +3.

So you are under the impression - because of on/off numbers of both players in one playoff run against different teams in entirely different situations - is indicative that Avery Bradley had a bigger impact on the court than Chris Bosh - in spite of the fact that one player has had two seasons in the NBA and less than one quarter of a competent season....and the other player is a top 20 player in the NBA and has been for years.

  Whether Bradley playing had more of an impact on the Celts in the playoffs last year than the impact of whether Bosh playing or not is undeniable. You obviously don't want to accept that because one player has had two seasons in the NBA and less than one quarter of a competent season, but it's true nonetheless. There's a big part of the equation that you're missing, playing Bradley kept (an injured) Ray off the court, and Ray was hurting the Celts.

  It's worth pointing out that (small sample size, about 300 minutes) that the Heat are getting outscored when Ray's on the court. This is happening in spite of Ray being a perennial all-star and future HOFer, fwiw.

And that it is complete coincidence that Miami outplayed us thoroughly in the games that Bosh was back fully.

One guy is a legitimate cornerstone of a championship team whose backups were Joel Anthony, Udonis Haslem and Eddy Curry.

The other guy was, at his best, a solid role player and was actually a pretty poor player the majority of his playing time with the Celtics. If Bradley didn't see the court, that just meant more Rondo, Ray, etc. If Bosh didn't see the court, that meant more Anthony/Haslem.

We're going to sit here and seriously pretend that Bradley would've made the difference last year. I just don't get it sometimes.

  You don't get it because this isn't fantasy basketball and you just can't assume that the better player will have the bigger impact on the game regardless of the circumstances.

  An example of this is Scal in the 09 playoffs. He played his usual self but we would have gotten beat in both series fairly handily without him, because the minutes he played would have gone to Mikki Moore, who was nothing short of disaster. I'd say that, by simply keeping Moore on the bench, Scal had more of an impact on those playoffs than Bosh had for the Heat last year.
Title: Re: Trading Bradley Would Be Beyond Stupid.
Post by: LarBrd33 on November 22, 2012, 03:41:19 PM
It's only stupid, because he probably has very little trade value.  No sense in trading him if he's not worth anything.  As much as we are hyped up about him... 15 games isn't enough to sell the league on him being a future star.  Doubt we could even land a lotto pick for him.

If some team is as enamored with Bradley as some of the Celtic fans on this board are... then it might be beyond stupid NOT to trade him.  If it means landing a legit star big man, do it.  There is no guarantee that a 6'2 180 pound shooting guard who averaged 7 points and .7 steals is going to be a star in this league.  It's harder to land legit bigs in this league than it is to land undersized shooting guards who can't play point.

Nobody is claiming avery bradleys trade value is high. I couldn't care less how other teams around the league feel about avery. All i can tell you is the team i saw out there before bradley got hurt would have taken down the heat. The team i saw out there was the best team in the league until bradley fell. And u wanna break that up, stupid.
I'm sorry, but that comment doesn't make any sense.  Are some of you under the assumption that the idea is to cut Bradley?  Cutting Bradley is different than trading Bradley.  The idea behind trading a player is that you get something of use back.  Nobody is suggesting we trade Bradley for scraps... the idea is that we trade him for a more important piece.  My point is, Bradley doesn't have nearly the same value around the league as some of these rabid Celtic fans seem to have for him.  14ish games, a shooting streak and a legendary game where he limited an injured Dwayne Wade to 20 points isn't enough to sell the rest of the league on his superstardom.  At the end of the day, he's a feisty little undersized shooting guard who plays solid defense, but might pan out to be nothing more than a smaller Tony Allen.  Undersized Tony Allen is still a good piece of the puzzle.   The only reason you trade Bradley is if we can bring in a key big man (Josh Smith or Al Jefferson or something) that we know can contribute and fill our biggest holes.

The attachment to Bradley reminds of how Celtic fans were like, "Trading Gerald Green would be BEYOND STUPID!!!" or "Trading Delonte West would be BEYOND STUPID!!!" or "Trading Al Jefferson would be BEYOND STUPID!!!"... Losing Big Al hurt, but it's all about context.  If we can get something major in return... maybe you do it.  If his value is as insignificant as I imagine... then you clearly don't trade him. 
Title: Re: Trading Bradley Would Be Beyond Stupid.
Post by: LarBrd33 on November 22, 2012, 03:50:33 PM
BTW, for whoever just compared Bradley's ho-hum playoffs to Ray's ho-hum playoffs... that's silly.  Ray was dreadful in the playoffs.  He was playing injured... shot 39%, 30% from three and 71% from the line.  Scoring is the only way Ray can contribute and that wasn't the same Ray ALlen who is shooting 51%, 52% from three and 84% from the line for the Heat right now.

Bradley was playing injured too... but I'm sure he was still an upgrade defensively over Ray in the minutes he played.  Probably why even though Bradley shot dreadful in his own right (36%/22%/67%) he might have had a bigger impact than the non-existent Ray Allen.

I think Bradley can be a good piece and I'm excited to see him come back.  I'd be thrilled to see him blossom into a star, but I'm not counting on it.  But at gunpoint... do I take a legit star who I KNOW can contribute right now... or cross my fingers that a 6'2 180 pound shooting guard is going to live up to suddenly crazy expectations?  ... I think I take the star.   My point is, I don't think anyone around the league cares about Bradley enough to give up a star for him.  Could be wrong, but I doubt a team like Atlanta is salivating for a super hyped munchkin who averaged 7 points and .7 steals last year.... probably not enough to give up a bluechip talent like Josh Smith.
Title: Re: Trading Bradley Would Be Beyond Stupid.
Post by: BballTim on November 22, 2012, 04:04:43 PM
BTW, for whoever just compared Bradley's ho-hum playoffs to Ray's ho-hum playoffs... that's silly.  Ray was dreadful in the playoffs.

  Haha. After all of your claims that KG's +/- numbers (compared to how the team does when he's replaced by dreadful players) point to his great play, you're calling this silly? Oh, the irony...
Title: Re: Trading Bradley Would Be Beyond Stupid.
Post by: BballTim on November 22, 2012, 04:12:28 PM

 Nobody is suggesting we trade Bradley for scraps... the idea is that we trade him for a more important piece.  My point is, Bradley doesn't have nearly the same value around the league as some of these rabid Celtic fans seem to have for him.  14ish games, a shooting streak and a legendary game where he limited an injured Dwayne Wade to 20 points isn't enough to sell the rest of the league on his superstardom.


  Obviously you have no idea how much Danny or any other team in the league values Bradley. You might not have any idea whether his play last year was indicative of how well he'll play in the future but that doesn't mean nba gms don't have an opinion on it.
Title: Re: Trading Bradley Would Be Beyond Stupid.
Post by: FatjohnReturns on November 22, 2012, 04:12:37 PM
No thanks on trading Bradley. It would be premature.
Title: Re: Trading Bradley Would Be Beyond Stupid.
Post by: soap07 on November 22, 2012, 04:53:00 PM
Quote
Whether Bradley playing had more of an impact on the Celts in the playoffs last year than the impact of whether Bosh playing or not is undeniable.

It's actually quite deniable. One is simply the much better player. On/off stats are incredibly misleading - especially when cherry picking from a small sample size.

Quote
  You don't get it because this isn't fantasy basketball and you just can't assume that the better player will have the bigger impact on the game regardless of the circumstances.

You're right, I don't assume that. I do assume when a better player by far has back ups who wouldn't even crack the Celtics rotation is out for a majority of a series - and that better player is a franchise cornerstone - while the player he's being compared to is a role player with a deeper team around him - that Player A has the much bigger impact.

Quote
  An example of this is Scal in the 09 playoffs. He played his usual self but we would have gotten beat in both series fairly handily without him, because the minutes he played would have gone to Mikki Moore, who was nothing short of disaster. I'd say that, by simply keeping Moore on the bench, Scal had more of an impact on those playoffs than Bosh had for the Heat last year.


You do understand who was getting Bosh's minutes while he was out? On an already thin team? Joel Anthony. Udonis Haslem. Dexter Pittman. You understand that right? The gap between Bosh and Joel Anthony/whoever else they were throwing out there is so much larger than the gap between Bradley and Rondo that I actually can't believe I have to explain this.
Title: Re: Trading Bradley Would Be Beyond Stupid.
Post by: JSD on November 22, 2012, 05:36:28 PM
No trade is beyond stupid if you get the right amount of value in return. Personally, I would rather Bradley be a wing that stays, but in the right deal he is expendable because of all of our depth at that particular position.
Title: Re: Trading Bradley Would Be Beyond Stupid.
Post by: Celtics4ever on November 22, 2012, 05:39:29 PM
Were we to trade him I think we'd have to get real value back from him. 

He is one injury away however from being labeled injury prone.  So far he hasn't been able to complete a full season.

The more likely scenario is that he comes back and makes another guy like Terry or Lee expendable.
Title: Re: Trading Bradley Would Be Beyond Stupid.
Post by: JSD on November 22, 2012, 05:43:32 PM
The more likely scenario is that he comes back and makes another guy like Terry or Lee expendable.

yeah, that's more or less what I'd like to see happen.
Title: Re: Trading Bradley Would Be Beyond Stupid.
Post by: Lightskinsmurf on November 22, 2012, 05:52:02 PM
Trading terry after he got that tattoo would be so messed up lol. Plus terry is playing a ton better than lee. If terry was on the bench he'd be the best player off it. No way we trade terry. Lee on the other hand...............
Title: Re: Trading Bradley Would Be Beyond Stupid.
Post by: BballTim on November 22, 2012, 06:58:13 PM
Quote
Whether Bradley playing had more of an impact on the Celts in the playoffs last year than the impact of whether Bosh playing or not is undeniable.

It's actually quite deniable. One is simply the much better player. On/off stats are incredibly misleading - especially when cherry picking from a small sample size.

  We're talking about the impact of the players in the playoffs so the sample size will be fairly small. But I'm using all of Bradley's minutes, not just some of his best games. That's basically the opposite of cherry picking.

Quote
  You don't get it because this isn't fantasy basketball and you just can't assume that the better player will have the bigger impact on the game regardless of the circumstances.

You're right, I don't assume that. I do assume when a better player by far has back ups who wouldn't even crack the Celtics rotation is out for a majority of a series - and that better player is a franchise cornerstone - while the player he's being compared to is a role player with a deeper team around him - that Player A has the much bigger impact.

  Interesting. You tell me you don't assume that, followed by an explanation of why you *are* assuming that.

Quote
  An example of this is Scal in the 09 playoffs. He played his usual self but we would have gotten beat in both series fairly handily without him, because the minutes he played would have gone to Mikki Moore, who was nothing short of disaster. I'd say that, by simply keeping Moore on the bench, Scal had more of an impact on those playoffs than Bosh had for the Heat last year.


You do understand who was getting Bosh's minutes while he was out? On an already thin team? Joel Anthony. Udonis Haslem. Dexter Pittman. You understand that right? The gap between Bosh and Joel Anthony/whoever else they were throwing out there is so much larger than the gap between Bradley and Rondo that I actually can't believe I have to explain this.

  You don't have to explain this. Almost everyone knows that Bosh is better than Bradley. Almost everyone knows that the gap between Bosh and Anthony is greater than the gap between Bradley and Ray. That's not in dispute. But, nonetheless, Bradley being in the lineup made more of a difference for us than Bosh being in the lineup for the Heat. Your argument seems to be that if you can't understand why something would happen then you refuse to believe that it did. I obviously disagree with that.
Title: Re: Trading Bradley Would Be Beyond Stupid.
Post by: lightspeed5 on November 22, 2012, 07:19:12 PM
avery bradley is the future of this team
Title: Re: Trading Bradley Would Be Beyond Stupid.
Post by: crimson_stallion on November 22, 2012, 08:54:47 PM
So you are under the impression - because of on/off numbers of both players in one playoff run against different teams in entirely different situations - is indicative that Avery Bradley had a bigger impact on the court than Chris Bosh - in spite of the fact that one player has had two seasons in the NBA and less than one quarter of a competent season....and the other player is a top 20 player in the NBA and has been for years.

And that it is complete coincidence that Miami outplayed us thoroughly in the games that Bosh was back fully.

Miami outplayed us in game 7 because Lebron took the team on his back and absolutely destroyed us.  Girl-scout Bosh had nothing to do with that win AT ALL.

KG killed Miami FAR more then Bosh killed us through that series.

In the previous game Bosh gave us trouble only because he hit about 3 total BS three's - he hit those shots because we didn't defend them AT ALL because Bosh is a career 28% three point shooter (and is shooting 18% from three this season). 

Those shots were:
* One part utter fluke
* One part helped by the fact that we didn't defend them

Take away those three's and then re-evaluate what Bosh did against us - practically nothing.

Bradley dominated defensively in every single game he played.

Quote
One guy is a legitimate cornerstone of a championship team whose backups were Joel Anthony, Udonis Haslem and Eddy Curry.

The other guy was, at his best, a solid role player and was actually a pretty poor player the majority of his playing time with the Celtics. If Bradley didn't see the court, that just meant more Rondo, Ray, etc. If Bosh didn't see the court, that meant more Anthony/Haslem.

Actually having Bradley not on the court meant more of Marquis Daniels and Keeyon Dooling, along with a few extra minutes for a injured Ray Allen who (with his bone spurs) was not playing much better than Daniels/Dooling.

Udonis Haslem is far more productive than Dooling or Daniels, and arguably more useful then Ray Allen the way he was playing in that series.

Quote
We're going to sit here and seriously pretend that Bradley would've made the difference last year. I just don't get it sometimes.

He would have made a very big difference.

Basketball is about matchups.  We slowed Wade down in a lot of those games, but do you remeber how we did it?  By throwing double teams at him which made him unconfortable - he was struggling with that.  Problem is it was leaving other guys open.

With Bradley we would have been able to slow Wade equally effectively with single coverage, and that would have allowed our perimeter defenders to stay on the shooters. 

You make the mistake of comparing players based on what they put on the box score.  Our inability to score lasst season (due to injuries, age, lack of firepower) meant that our defense was the only thing that kept us in games and gave us a chance to win.  Bradley was arguably our most critical defensive player along with KG. 

Having Bradley defending the perimeter and KG defending inside made our defense almost inpenetrable.  Having KG only protercts inside, but our l;ack of perimeter D means players are driving against us at will.  You cant expect KG to protect against all of that guard penetration AND defend his man, but right now thats what he's had to do - its asking too much of one man. It's not the box score that counts, it's the skills / talents each player brings in relation to what the team needs. 
Bradley's elite defense talent fills a desperate void on this team. 

Anyone here got access to all the fancy stats?  I'd love to see Boston's +/- stat (and their defensive stats) from last season when KG and Avery were on the court together.  That is my homework for anyone here who is interested in looking it up.
Title: Re: Trading Bradley Would Be Beyond Stupid.
Post by: soap07 on November 22, 2012, 09:07:56 PM
Quote
  You don't have to explain this. Almost everyone knows that Bosh is better than Bradley. Almost everyone knows that the gap between Bosh and Anthony is greater than the gap between Bradley and Ray. That's not in dispute. But, nonetheless, Bradley being in the lineup made more of a difference for us than Bosh being in the lineup for the Heat. Your argument seems to be that if you can't understand why something would happen then you refuse to believe that it did. I obviously disagree with that.

Parsing through this paragraph:

Statement A: Chris Bosh is a better player than Avery Bradley.
Statement B: The gap between Chris Bosh and Joel Anthony is greater than the gap between Avery Bradley and Ray Allen.
Statement C: In spite of those two facts, Bradley being in the line up means more to the Celtics than Bosh to the Heat.

Okay.

Title: Re: Trading Bradley Would Be Beyond Stupid.
Post by: soap07 on November 22, 2012, 09:21:06 PM
Quote
Miami outplayed us in game 7 because Lebron took the team on his back and absolutely destroyed us.  Girl-scout Bosh had nothing to do with that win AT ALL.

I can't really take this that seriously. Chris Bosh scored 19 points and grabbed 8 boards. He shot 8-10 from the field. Garnett had 14 and 7 on 6-12 of shooting.

Quote
KG killed Miami FAR more then Bosh killed us through that series.

It helps that KG, you know, played the whole series.

Quote
In the previous game Bosh gave us trouble only because he hit about 3 total BS three's - he hit those shots because we didn't defend them AT ALL because Bosh is a career 28% three point shooter (and is shooting 18% from three this season). 

Those shots were:
* One part utter fluke
* One part helped by the fact that we didn't defend them

Take away those three's and then re-evaluate what Bosh did against us - practically nothing.

You can't just disregard production when you don't like it. Wade and LeBron have historically not been good shooters. Should we discount any 3's they hit too?

Quote
Udonis Haslem is far more productive than Dooling or Daniels, and arguably more useful then Ray Allen the way he was playing in that series.

Haslem was terrible last season in the limited amount that he did play. An under 11 PER in the playoffs and a 9 PER during the regular season. Keyon Dooling/Marquis Daniels were not asked to play the same role that Haslem was supposed to fill for the Heat.

Quote
Having Bradley defending the perimeter and KG defending inside made our defense almost inpenetrable.  Having KG only protercts inside, but our l;ack of perimeter D means players are driving against us at will.  You cant expect KG to protect against all of that guard penetration AND defend his man, but right now thats what he's had to do - its asking too much of one man. It's not the box score that counts, it's the skills / talents each player brings in relation to what the team needs. 
Bradley's elite defense talent fills a desperate void on this team.


Part of the problem with Bosh being out is that KG was free to roam and play much more help defense. When Bosh returned, he had to be guarded at all times in a way that Anthony and Haslem didn't have to be. This made the difference in the series. This freed things up offensive for LeBron and Wade. Bosh is also a better defender than Haslem and Anthony. I mean, really, he's pretty much better at everything but that's besides the point.
Title: Re: Trading Bradley Would Be Beyond Stupid.
Post by: crimson_stallion on November 22, 2012, 09:29:36 PM
The only reason you trade Bradley is if we can bring in a key big man (Josh Smith or Al Jefferson or something) that we know can contribute and fill our biggest holes.

The problem is that our biggest hole right now is not rebounding, it's not inside scoring, it's defense. Bradley fills that hole, so why trade him for a player that is older, that will cost us more money, and will fill a different (less important) hole?

Yes, our rebounding sucks this year - it sucked last year too, and we almost made the finals. 

Last year we had a dominant defense, and that gave us a chance.  The main things last year that stopped us from getting further were (in order):

(1) Lack of scoring - we were in the bottom 2 among all 16 playoff teams in scoring. We stopped opponents from scoring, but it wasn't enough because we couldn't score ourselves.

(2) Lack of depth - in the last game we competed throught the entire first half, but our lack of bench production meant our key guys (two of whom were injured) had to play massive minutes, and after a 3rd straight series going at least 6 games they were utterly exhausted.  We were the stronger team in the first half of game 7, then in the second half we were out of energy, and then Lebron just destroyed us.

(3) Lack of rebounding - this would have either given us extra posessions or limited the Heat's extra positions, and either case would have been valuable without a doubt.  At the end of the day though the ability to score is more important because a basket is a guaranteed score, while an offensive rebound is only an opportunity for a score.

Ultimately this year our scoring has improved dramatically.  Even in our worst offensive games we have been no worse then 'on par' with the offensive numbers we put up last season, and in our better games we have been vastly superior.  From memory we we are averaging around 98 PPG this year which is far superior to what we averaged last year.

The problem is that even though we are scoring more points, we are ALLOWING more points.  In fact we are allowing more points then we are scoring, and that's becuase our defense is horridly worse then it was last season.  If we got our defense back to where it was last season and continued to score at our current rate we would be right around the top of the league regardless of our rebounding situation.

This is why Bradley is more important for us then many people appreciate.  He may even be more important to us then Gortat because now that Dooling, Marquis and Pietrus are gone we have no perimeter defense at all when Bradley isn't in the game. 

Gortat helps our interior defense which is great, but KG already doing a great job there. Yes extra defense won't hurt, but it's nowehere near as critical because it's more "padding" a hole rather than filling a hole.  We can fight through 15 minutes of no interior defense and still beat playoff teams, but we can't fight through 48 minutes of zero perimeter defense and beat playoff teams.

Oh and before somebody mentions Courtney Lee, his defense has been somewhere in between 'inconsistent' and 'utterly insufficient'.  Right now I'd trade Lee for Pietrus in a heartbeat - and I'd tell the other team to keep the extra 4 million in cap space as a gift.
Title: Re: Trading Bradley Would Be Beyond Stupid.
Post by: crimson_stallion on November 22, 2012, 09:53:23 PM
You do understand who was getting Bosh's minutes while he was out? On an already thin team? Joel Anthony. Udonis Haslem. Dexter Pittman. You understand that right? The gap between Bosh and Joel Anthony/whoever else they were throwing out there is so much larger than the gap between Bradley and Rondo that I actually can't believe I have to explain this.

Haslem is actually pretty good...he's a high energy guy who is a solid defender, a very good rebounder and capable of scoring when need be.  He's also a hard worker who puts in 110% every night.  I would not complain about having him on our team.
Title: Re: Trading Bradley Would Be Beyond Stupid.
Post by: BballTim on November 22, 2012, 09:59:42 PM
Quote
  You don't have to explain this. Almost everyone knows that Bosh is better than Bradley. Almost everyone knows that the gap between Bosh and Anthony is greater than the gap between Bradley and Ray. That's not in dispute. But, nonetheless, Bradley being in the lineup made more of a difference for us than Bosh being in the lineup for the Heat. Your argument seems to be that if you can't understand why something would happen then you refuse to believe that it did. I obviously disagree with that.

Parsing through this paragraph:

Statement A: Chris Bosh is a better player than Avery Bradley.
Statement B: The gap between Chris Bosh and Joel Anthony is greater than the gap between Avery Bradley and Ray Allen.
Statement C: In spite of those two facts, Bradley being in the line up means more to the Celtics than Bosh to the Heat.

Okay.

  Yes, all three of those statements are true. You've been claiming that C has to be false *even though statistics show it to be true* because A and B are true. Your not seeing how it can be true has no bearing on the fact that, at least for the end of last season and the playoffs, it was true. Throwing out the stats because you disagree with them doesn't change them.

Title: Re: Trading Bradley Would Be Beyond Stupid.
Post by: Lightskinsmurf on November 22, 2012, 10:14:12 PM
I was gonna quote it but you guys wrote long paragraphs. Very well said tho. People claim we are overrating bradley but the numbers prove otherwise. In fact, if anything, you guys are underrating him.
Title: Re: Trading Bradley Would Be Beyond Stupid.
Post by: crimson_stallion on November 22, 2012, 10:25:05 PM
My point is, I don't think anyone around the league cares about Bradley enough to give up a star for him.  Could be wrong, but I doubt a team like Atlanta is salivating for a super hyped munchkin who averaged 7 points and .7 steals last year.... probably not enough to give up a bluechip talent like Josh Smith.

I actually agree with you on this one.

Bradley is a guy who has two main upsides:
1. Elite perimeter defense
2. Youth / potential

No team back in the day would have traded Chris Webber in his prime for Bruce Bowen in his prime - but it's undeniable that Bruce Bowen was a critical piece on some very succesful NBA teams. 

Having exceptional skill/talent in one area doesn't make you an "all star" like asset come trade time. 

Bradley has more to offer then Bowen because he's more athletic and a better offensive player then Bowen was, but teams won't trade an all-star straight up unless they are getting a player with All-Star potential in return. I think a lot of teams would question whether Bradley would ever be an All-Star calibre player, and even I question that.

Here is something to think about.  Right now, Tony Allen is a pretty valuable commodity on the market. He's not all-star valuable, but his elite defense and effort/energy personality combined with his solid (if not spectacular) offense gives him a very high value on the market none the less.

The way I see it Avery Bradley is about on par with Tony Allen right now defensively, and not far off offensively.  He's got the same high motor and 'high effort' attitude, he's more athletic and he's younger.  That tells me that right now Avery Bradley probably has trade value similar to Tony Allen, possibly even high simply because of his youth (and hence potential). 
Would a team trade an All-Star for Tony Allen?  Probably not.  Would a team give up a disgruntled borderline All-Star for Tony Allen, Courtney Lee and Brandon Bass (or Sullinger)?  I think 9 teams out of 10 would at least consider it.
Title: Re: Trading Bradley Would Be Beyond Stupid.
Post by: indeedproceed on November 22, 2012, 11:25:00 PM
Trading anyone isn't necessarily stupid. It's only stupid if youre getting value back that isn't in the best interests of your team.
Title: Re: Trading Bradley Would Be Beyond Stupid.
Post by: crimson_stallion on November 23, 2012, 12:10:04 AM
Quote from: soap07
I can't really take this that seriously. Chris Bosh scored 19 points and grabbed 8 boards. He shot 8-10 from the field. Garnett had 14 and 7 on 6-12 of shooting.

You should, because that's what happened. 

You can sit here and quote all the box score all you like, but if you actually WATCHED the game Boston were mostly in control.  We kept building leads, and every time it looked like we were going to break away and blow them out, Lebron would take control of the game and bring them back within striking distance.  Every time Miami seemed to lose hope and lose their spirits, Lebron would come up with 3 or 4 consecutive big plays and give his team confidence.  He was dominating the game with his "refusal to lose" attitude. 

You just quoted Bosh's on paper numbers - they weren't THAT far from KG's numbers, yet KG has far more impact on defense (which you the box score doesn't have a number for).     

Quote
It helps that KG, you know, played the whole series.

Not really...

If you look at the way KG played in the time he was on the court vs the way Bosh played in the time he was on the court, KG was more dominant. 

KG was consistently hurting Miami with high percentage shots inside the paint - they had no answer to that for most of the series.  He was pretty much scoring at will down there.  When he wasn't scoring in the post he was hitting midrange jumpers, which he also traditionally hits at a very high percentage.  KG got his numbers from smart, high percentabe basketball - you can depend on that game in, game out. 

Bosh was standing out on the perimeter taking low percentage jump shots from a range that he traditionally doesn't hit at a high percentage from.  He just happened to get hot that day and hit three shots from there.  Bosh shoots about 30% from three, so statistically he would have hit 1/3 at best that game. 

You cannot depend on luck as a tactic or a strategy because (by definition) you don't always have it.  If he had a regular Chris Bosh game he would have shot 6-8 and he would have had 13 points instead of 19.  He didn't get his numbers from skill or ability, he was just pure lucky that he happened to get a hot hand on the right day, at the right time. 

If anything Bosh being out part of the series may have given him an advantage because he was the best rested guy on the court, while everyone else was tired.
 

Quote
You can't just disregard production when you don't like it. Wade and LeBron have historically not been good shooters. Should we discount any 3's they hit too?

That's hardly an equivalent comparison...

Wade has made about 0.5 3PT and attempted about 1.8 3PT per game over his 9 year career.  He's not a great three point shooter by any means (29% career) but if he's taking nearly two a game and hitting one in three then he's obivously a willing  shooter from that range whos capable of hitting it on a consistent (if not efficient) basis.   It's beyond the point of "fluke". 

Lebron has averaged 1.3 3PM per game over his career, so that's about three 3PM made every two games.  He's hitting those at 33% which is oviously not Ray Allen efficiency, but he is clearly a threat from there regardless.   

Bosh has averaged 0.1 3PM per game and about 0.3 attempts.  That means he only takes a three once every three games (give or take) and in every 10 games he might hit one. That's not a three-point threat.  It's debatable whether half of those shots are skill or just plain fluke - the sample size is too small for it to be convincing. 

In that game against us he hit three shots from outside - it would normally take him half a season to hit that many threes.  That is NOT standard shooting from him - it was clearly a fluke game and he just happened to be feeling it that night.   

Quote
Haslem was terrible last season in the limited amount that he did play. An under 11 PER in the playoffs and a 9 PER during the regular season. Keyon Dooling/Marquis Daniels were not asked to play the same role that Haslem was supposed to fill for the Heat.

He averaged 6 points and 7.3 reboounds in 25 minutes. That's 9 points and 10 rebounds per 36 minutes - 2.6 of those rebounds (per 36 minutes) were on the offensive end.  That's better rebounding then anyone on our team (bar maybe KG) gave us that season and better scoring per minute then any of our reserves last year bar maybe Pietrus.   

You're the gap between Bradley and Rondo is bigger then the gap between Bosh and his next guy (Haslem) but in in the playoffs we didn't have Bradley, so our backup to Ray Allen was either Pietrus or Marquis/Dooling.  Before Bradley went out we were without Ray Allen for a long time, so often Bradley was being backed up by Pietrus or Marquis/Dooling.

On a per minute basis was Pietrus' output REALLY that much higher than Haslem's on offense? Did he shoot on at a much higher efficiency?  He was pretty much our sixth man for the majority of the season.

Quote
Part of the problem with Bosh being out is that KG was free to roam and play much more help defense. When Bosh returned, he had to be guarded at all times in a way that Anthony and Haslem didn't have to be. This made the difference in the series. This freed things up offensive for LeBron and Wade. Bosh is also a better defender than Haslem and Anthony. I mean, really, he's pretty much better at everything but that's besides the point.

Miami have Mario Chalmers, Dwyane Wade, Lebron James and Shane Battier on the court the majority of the time.  Every one of those guys is a capable defender and every one of those guys can hit outside shots.  What you say above is untrue because we were constantly getting killed by Miami on three point shots from Battier / Chalmers / Jones LONG before Bosh came back - it changed very little when he returned.

By comparison Our perimeter defense on D Wade was composed of Ray Allen (injured, and a step slow at the best of times), Marquis Daniels, Keyon Dooling and E'Twaun Moore.   Out of those guys Marquis is the best defender - how much of a defensive upgrade would you say Bradley is over either one of those guys?  How much of an offensive upgrade is Bradley over Quis, Dooling or Moore? 

Pietrus was excellent for us, but because of his size/strength/athleticism he was often tasked with defending Lebron while Pierce sat. 

Bradley this season is EVEN MORE important to Boston then he was last season because we are so much more desperate for Perimeter D.  Last year we had Pietrus and Marquis, who were both very solid perimeter defenders.  Even Dooling was very good at times (and at least solid at others).  This year our best perimeter defenders are Lee (who has been dissaponiting) and Barbosa (who has never been known as a defensive minded player).

The simply addition of Avery Bradley to this team has on it's own has the potential to jump us from a top 22 defense to a top 10 defense - that is no exhageration. The guy is that good.  I think our offense would also improve with him out there.

Anyway, I don't even know how this discussion got this far - what does Bradley VS Bosh have to do with the original topic here?   Are we talking about trading  Bradley being a bad idea, or are we trying to argue about who was more valueable in the ECF out of Bradley or Bosh?  The latter would be a silly argument because we never saw Bradley in the ECF.
Title: Re: Trading Bradley Would Be Beyond Stupid.
Post by: chambers on November 23, 2012, 04:10:21 AM
This team as constructed will find it hard to win a championship. We need another All Star.
Can Avery Bradley become an All Star? It's hard to know and I don't know how much time we need to find out and HE needs to prove it.
He's just come off double shoulder surgery. Look what happened to Perkins after surgery...completely useless now. Just scowls and tries to act tough but gets targeted by every opposing offense. Anyway I'm not saying the same thing will happen to Avery but I'm pretty sure he's not turning into Dwayne Wade anytime soon.

Point is that if we can secure an All Star caliber player- particularly a big man that can cater to Rondo's pick and roll offense and complement KG's defense much in the same way Shaq did when he was healthy for us, then we have to move Avery to get them- Avery just isn't leading us to the promised land as our starting two guard. He's great, but is he an All Star? I doubt it. We need an athletic All Star capable big in the paint on both ends.
Preferably someone who Rondo would make look even better like Smith or Gortat.

I love Avery but I love the Celtics more, and Avery ain't ever leading the Celtics to the promised land as our starting shooting guard unless it's via a trade for a true game changer on both ends
I'd love to keep him and get an All Star big man but he's our best trade bait to getting a legit big man.
Millsap, Josh Smith or perhaps even Gortat if we are really struggling.
Title: Re: Trading Bradley Would Be Beyond Stupid.
Post by: Surferdad on November 23, 2012, 12:48:43 PM
This team as constructed will find it hard to win a championship. We need another All Star.
Can Avery Bradley become an All Star? It's hard to know and I don't know how much time we need to find out and HE needs to prove it.
He's just come off double shoulder surgery. Look what happened to Perkins after surgery...completely useless now. Just scowls and tries to act tough but gets targeted by every opposing offense. Anyway I'm not saying the same thing will happen to Avery but I'm pretty sure he's not turning into Dwayne Wade anytime soon.

Point is that if we can secure an All Star caliber player- particularly a big man that can cater to Rondo's pick and roll offense and complement KG's defense much in the same way Shaq did when he was healthy for us, then we have to move Avery to get them- Avery just isn't leading us to the promised land as our starting two guard. He's great, but is he an All Star? I doubt it. We need an athletic All Star capable big in the paint on both ends.
Preferably someone who Rondo would make look even better like Smith or Gortat.

I love Avery but I love the Celtics more, and Avery ain't ever leading the Celtics to the promised land as our starting shooting guard unless it's via a trade for a true game changer on both ends
I'd love to keep him and get an All Star big man but he's our best trade bait to getting a legit big man.
Millsap, Josh Smith or perhaps even Gortat if we are really struggling.
I have to agree. Some folks are counting on Bradley's return as if he is some kind of savior who will turn around all the ills on this team.  He will help, no doubt, but he will not help the rebounding problem. Is Bradley a great prospect for the future? No doubt, but it seems the priority this season is to make one more run, not to build for the future.
Title: Re: Trading Bradley Would Be Beyond Stupid.
Post by: cman88 on November 23, 2012, 12:54:55 PM
This team as constructed will find it hard to win a championship. We need another All Star.
Can Avery Bradley become an All Star? It's hard to know and I don't know how much time we need to find out and HE needs to prove it.
He's just come off double shoulder surgery. Look what happened to Perkins after surgery...completely useless now. Just scowls and tries to act tough but gets targeted by every opposing offense. Anyway I'm not saying the same thing will happen to Avery but I'm pretty sure he's not turning into Dwayne Wade anytime soon.

Point is that if we can secure an All Star caliber player- particularly a big man that can cater to Rondo's pick and roll offense and complement KG's defense much in the same way Shaq did when he was healthy for us, then we have to move Avery to get them- Avery just isn't leading us to the promised land as our starting two guard. He's great, but is he an All Star? I doubt it. We need an athletic All Star capable big in the paint on both ends.
Preferably someone who Rondo would make look even better like Smith or Gortat.

I love Avery but I love the Celtics more, and Avery ain't ever leading the Celtics to the promised land as our starting shooting guard unless it's via a trade for a true game changer on both ends
I'd love to keep him and get an All Star big man but he's our best trade bait to getting a legit big man.
Millsap, Josh Smith or perhaps even Gortat if we are really struggling.
I have to agree. Some folks are counting on Bradley's return as if he is some kind of savior who will turn around all the ills on this team.  He will help, no doubt, but he will not help the rebounding problem. Is Bradley a great prospect for the future? No doubt, but it seems the priority this season is to make one more run, not to build for the future.

well, putting bradley in the starting lineup made our defense scary last year and helped turn the season around...I think that is what people are going on.

why are guards getting to the paint so much? because Rondo/Lee cant stay in front of anyone so far so our Big's have to help out..leaving THEIR man open.

If you have a guard who can stop their man from penetrating it allows KG/Bass to stay in the paint

Scalabrine mentioned this on the radio, that even just adding bradley could improve their defense. because they are missing his ability to stay in front of people
Title: Re: Trading Bradley Would Be Beyond Stupid.
Post by: wdleehi on November 23, 2012, 12:57:30 PM
WARNING:  No more personal attacks.  wdleehi
Title: Re: Trading Bradley Would Be Beyond Stupid.
Post by: Lightskinsmurf on November 23, 2012, 01:18:17 PM
This team as constructed will find it hard to win a championship. We need another All Star.
Can Avery Bradley become an All Star? It's hard to know and I don't know how much time we need to find out and HE needs to prove it.
He's just come off double shoulder surgery. Look what happened to Perkins after surgery...completely useless now. Just scowls and tries to act tough but gets targeted by every opposing offense. Anyway I'm not saying the same thing will happen to Avery but I'm pretty sure he's not turning into Dwayne Wade anytime soon.

Point is that if we can secure an All Star caliber player- particularly a big man that can cater to Rondo's pick and roll offense and complement KG's defense much in the same way Shaq did when he was healthy for us, then we have to move Avery to get them- Avery just isn't leading us to the promised land as our starting two guard. He's great, but is he an All Star? I doubt it. We need an athletic All Star capable big in the paint on both ends.
Preferably someone who Rondo would make look even better like Smith or Gortat.

I love Avery but I love the Celtics more, and Avery ain't ever leading the Celtics to the promised land as our starting shooting guard unless it's via a trade for a true game changer on both ends
I'd love to keep him and get an All Star big man but he's our best trade bait to getting a legit big man.
Millsap, Josh Smith or perhaps even Gortat if we are really struggling.
I have to agree. Some folks are counting on Bradley's return as if he is some kind of savior who will turn around all the ills on this team.  He will help, no doubt, but he will not help the rebounding problem. Is Bradley a great prospect for the future? No doubt, but it seems the priority this season is to make one more run, not to build for the future.

well, putting bradley in the starting lineup made our defense scary last year and helped turn the season around...I think that is what people are going on.

why are guards getting to the paint so much? because Rondo/Lee cant stay in front of anyone so far so our Big's have to help out..leaving THEIR man open.

If you have a guard who can stop their man from penetrating it allows KG/Bass to stay in the paint

Scalabrine mentioned this on the radio, that even just adding bradley could improve their defense. because they are missing his ability to stay in front of people

What are you talking about? Bradley is a scrub who didn't help our team in any way last year. Stop overrating him  ;)
Title: Re: Trading Bradley Would Be Beyond Stupid.
Post by: vinnie on November 23, 2012, 01:34:45 PM
I don't think you have to worry.


Good teams are not going to give up a lot for a player who had one short stretch of good play and then got injured. 


Especially when that player is a small SG.



I am not trying to knock Bradley or what he could be.  But at this point, his trade value is not that high that he could be the center piece of a trade for a big man like Gortat. 


And yes, if it was available, I would have no issue giving up AB in a package for a player like Gortat.  Just look at KG's effect on this team when he is on the court or off the court.  The Celtics need that talented player with size more then another SG, no matter how good defensively they are.

This. The above post = common sense thinking
Title: Re: Trading Bradley Would Be Beyond Stupid.
Post by: Celtics18 on November 23, 2012, 04:29:30 PM
This team as constructed will find it hard to win a championship. We need another All Star.
Can Avery Bradley become an All Star? It's hard to know and I don't know how much time we need to find out and HE needs to prove it.
He's just come off double shoulder surgery. Look what happened to Perkins after surgery...completely useless now. Just scowls and tries to act tough but gets targeted by every opposing offense. Anyway I'm not saying the same thing will happen to Avery but I'm pretty sure he's not turning into Dwayne Wade anytime soon.

Point is that if we can secure an All Star caliber player- particularly a big man that can cater to Rondo's pick and roll offense and complement KG's defense much in the same way Shaq did when he was healthy for us, then we have to move Avery to get them- Avery just isn't leading us to the promised land as our starting two guard. He's great, but is he an All Star? I doubt it. We need an athletic All Star capable big in the paint on both ends.
Preferably someone who Rondo would make look even better like Smith or Gortat.

I love Avery but I love the Celtics more, and Avery ain't ever leading the Celtics to the promised land as our starting shooting guard unless it's via a trade for a true game changer on both ends
I'd love to keep him and get an All Star big man but he's our best trade bait to getting a legit big man.
Millsap, Josh Smith or perhaps even Gortat if we are really struggling.
I have to agree. Some folks are counting on Bradley's return as if he is some kind of savior who will turn around all the ills on this team.  He will help, no doubt, but he will not help the rebounding problem. Is Bradley a great prospect for the future? No doubt, but it seems the priority this season is to make one more run, not to build for the future.

well, putting bradley in the starting lineup made our defense scary last year and helped turn the season around...I think that is what people are going on.

why are guards getting to the paint so much? because Rondo/Lee cant stay in front of anyone so far so our Big's have to help out..leaving THEIR man open.

If you have a guard who can stop their man from penetrating it allows KG/Bass to stay in the paint

Scalabrine mentioned this on the radio, that even just adding bradley could improve their defense. because they are missing his ability to stay in front of people

The main place that we are getting killed is on pick and roll plays.  Bigs have to help on pick and rolls no matter who the guards are.  Granted, there are guards who are better at fighting through picks than others.  Bradley is, indeed, particularly good at it. 

But, for a defense to be elite, it needs bigs who show well and recover on pick and rolls, and bigs who "help the helper" as they call it. 

Guards and wings get in the lane in the NBA.  No team stops penetration and never lets the opposition get in the lane.  What the good defensive teams do is cover, switch and help well once players are in the lane. 

I have confidence that our defense, led by Garnett (and two underrated defenders in Pierce and Rondo) will get back to the levels we've seen them play over the past five years.

I think a Marcin Gortat could help that D more for the present and the future than Avery Bradley. 

Of course, if we could find a way to add the former and keep the latter, that would be really sick.
Title: Re: Trading Bradley Would Be Beyond Stupid.
Post by: Lightskinsmurf on November 23, 2012, 04:37:46 PM
This team as constructed will find it hard to win a championship. We need another All Star.
Can Avery Bradley become an All Star? It's hard to know and I don't know how much time we need to find out and HE needs to prove it.
He's just come off double shoulder surgery. Look what happened to Perkins after surgery...completely useless now. Just scowls and tries to act tough but gets targeted by every opposing offense. Anyway I'm not saying the same thing will happen to Avery but I'm pretty sure he's not turning into Dwayne Wade anytime soon.

Point is that if we can secure an All Star caliber player- particularly a big man that can cater to Rondo's pick and roll offense and complement KG's defense much in the same way Shaq did when he was healthy for us, then we have to move Avery to get them- Avery just isn't leading us to the promised land as our starting two guard. He's great, but is he an All Star? I doubt it. We need an athletic All Star capable big in the paint on both ends.
Preferably someone who Rondo would make look even better like Smith or Gortat.

I love Avery but I love the Celtics more, and Avery ain't ever leading the Celtics to the promised land as our starting shooting guard unless it's via a trade for a true game changer on both ends
I'd love to keep him and get an All Star big man but he's our best trade bait to getting a legit big man.
Millsap, Josh Smith or perhaps even Gortat if we are really struggling.
I have to agree. Some folks are counting on Bradley's return as if he is some kind of savior who will turn around all the ills on this team.  He will help, no doubt, but he will not help the rebounding problem. Is Bradley a great prospect for the future? No doubt, but it seems the priority this season is to make one more run, not to build for the future.

well, putting bradley in the starting lineup made our defense scary last year and helped turn the season around...I think that is what people are going on.

why are guards getting to the paint so much? because Rondo/Lee cant stay in front of anyone so far so our Big's have to help out..leaving THEIR man open.

If you have a guard who can stop their man from penetrating it allows KG/Bass to stay in the paint

Scalabrine mentioned this on the radio, that even just adding bradley could improve their defense. because they are missing his ability to stay in front of people

The main place that we are getting killed is on pick and roll plays.  Bigs have to help on pick and rolls no matter who the guards are.  Granted, there are guards who are better at fighting through picks than others.  Bradley is, indeed, particularly good at it. 

But, for a defense to be elite, it needs bigs who show well and recover on pick and rolls, and bigs who "help the helper" as they call it. 

Guards and wings get in the lane in the NBA.  No team stops penetration and never lets the opposition get in the lane.  What the good defensive teams do is cover, switch and help well once players are in the lane. 

I have confidence that our defense, led by Garnett (and two underrated defenders in Pierce and Rondo) will get back to the levels we've seen them play over the past five years.

I think a Marcin Gortat could help that D more for the present and the future than Avery Bradley. 

Of course, if we could find a way to add the former and keep the latter, that would be really sick.

Our defense was elite last year once garnett moved to center and ab entered the starting lineup. We didn't have any allstar bigs then. I disagree with almost everything you said