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Celtics Basketball => Celtics Talk => Topic started by: jdz101 on November 18, 2012, 10:06:19 PM

Title: Doc needs to tweak his system a little bit.
Post by: jdz101 on November 18, 2012, 10:06:19 PM
Offensively the amount of off-ball screens that get set for each one of the sets is just absurd. Every play that gets run for terry is so telegraphed because you hav 3 or 4 guys standing in the screen position and only 1 guy moving.

Guys like green and terry are exhausted from changing direction over 4 screens then they finally get the ball they miss their shot.

Im not sure Doc has recognized that we have the weapons this year to run more simple sets and get them to use their skills to improvise and score. This year is a completely different complexion to last year where we had a lot of grind-em-out energy guys that didn't have much offensive prowess. (eg sasha, Dooling, quis etc)
Title: Re: Doc needs to tweak his system a little bit.
Post by: Yoki_IsTheName on November 18, 2012, 10:14:02 PM
There is no shot blocking presence. AT ALL.

He should start from that.
Title: Re: Doc needs to tweak his system a little bit.
Post by: Change on November 18, 2012, 10:15:39 PM
Another Doc Rivers team underachieving  ::). Sometimes I ponder what Gregg Popovich could do with this roster. And if he was head coach of the Celtics, how many more championship rings would be on KG's finger?
Title: Re: Doc needs to tweak his system a little bit.
Post by: Galeto on November 18, 2012, 10:24:15 PM
I really don't get why they signed Terry if they're only going to play him off the ball.  When they signed him, they at least talked a good game.  They said they needed another guy who can handle the ball in pick and roll situations and create his own shot and Terry is that guy.  They're using him in the way that pushed Ray to Miami.  It's absolutely brilliant.

Terry is one of the best shooters in the league off the dribble.  He's also a good passer and very adept at bringing the ball up and walking into a three point shot.  They have him doing done of that.

I just don't understand why Doc pares everyone's talents down so Rondo can have the ball all the freaking time.

As far as I know, no championship team has ever had only one player who plays over 30 minutes a game with an assist percentage over 20.  In 2008, both Rondo and Pierce were over 20.  Making everyone role players so one guy can get some assist mark doesn't work.
Title: Re: Doc needs to tweak his system a little bit.
Post by: apc on November 18, 2012, 10:33:15 PM
Another Doc Rivers team underachieving  ::). Sometimes I ponder what Gregg Popovich could do with this roster. And if he was head coach of the Celtics, how many more championship rings would be on KG's finger?
I hear you, I hear Phil Jackson is available.  ;)
Title: Re: Doc needs to tweak his system a little bit.
Post by: BballTim on November 18, 2012, 10:42:16 PM
As far as I know, no championship team has ever had only one player who plays over 30 minutes a game with an assist percentage over 20.  In 2008, both Rondo and Pierce were over 20.  Making everyone role players so one guy can get some assist mark doesn't work.

  Is that something you'd expect to know off the top of your head?

  In any case, it looks like none of the Spurs or Lakers teams that have won titles since 1999 had more than one player who plays over 30 minutes a game with an assist percentage over 20. So that's 9 out of the last 14 champs that don't meet your criteria.
Title: Re: Doc needs to tweak his system a little bit.
Post by: Change on November 18, 2012, 10:49:24 PM
Another Doc Rivers team underachieving  ::). Sometimes I ponder what Gregg Popovich could do with this roster. And if he was head coach of the Celtics, how many more championship rings would be on KG's finger?
I hear you, I hear Phil Jackson is available.  ;)

Phil does have the itch to coach again.  ;) He can exact revenge against his former club #18.
Title: Re: Doc needs to tweak his system a little bit.
Post by: bfrombleacher on November 18, 2012, 10:56:44 PM
After this game maybe Doc'll stop playing smallball!!!

Positives, guys, positives!
Title: Re: Doc needs to tweak his system a little bit.
Post by: jdz101 on November 18, 2012, 10:57:22 PM
Thank god it's not only me...In my eyes some good penetration and one decent pick is much better than 4 picks set just because a play book said so....
Title: Re: Doc needs to tweak his system a little bit.
Post by: Galeto on November 18, 2012, 10:58:38 PM
As far as I know, no championship team has ever had only one player who plays over 30 minutes a game with an assist percentage over 20.  In 2008, both Rondo and Pierce were over 20.  Making everyone role players so one guy can get some assist mark doesn't work.

  Is that something you'd expect to know off the top of your head?

  In any case, it looks like none of the Spurs or Lakers teams that have won titles since 1999 had more than one player who plays over 30 minutes a game with an assist percentage over 20. So that's 9 out of the last 14 champs that don't meet your criteria.

Okay, clearly I didn't think my criteria through.  Basically, I hate watching a team where one guy monopolizes the ball to the tune of an assist percentage in the 40s or above unless that guy is Magic Johnson and they're playing at a fast pace.  Rondo's assist percentage in 2008 was 28.  There's no reason for him to have the ball all the time if it means his teammates stand around so much.
Title: Re: Doc needs to tweak his system a little bit.
Post by: BballTim on November 18, 2012, 11:13:02 PM
As far as I know, no championship team has ever had only one player who plays over 30 minutes a game with an assist percentage over 20.  In 2008, both Rondo and Pierce were over 20.  Making everyone role players so one guy can get some assist mark doesn't work.

  Is that something you'd expect to know off the top of your head?

  In any case, it looks like none of the Spurs or Lakers teams that have won titles since 1999 had more than one player who plays over 30 minutes a game with an assist percentage over 20. So that's 9 out of the last 14 champs that don't meet your criteria.

Okay, clearly I didn't think my criteria through.  Basically, I hate watching a team where one guy monopolizes the ball to the tune of an assist percentage in the 40s or above unless that guy is Magic Johnson and they're playing at a fast pace.  Rondo's assist percentage in 2008 was 28.  There's no reason for him to have the ball all the time if it means his teammates stand around so much.

  So you've never enjoyed watching teams led by Thomas, Stockton, KJ, Kidd, Nash, Paul or Williams? Interesting.

  In any case, Rondo gets the team open shots and they score pretty efficiently, which is good for a team that tends to take low efficiency shots and doesn't have a ton of shot creators.
Title: Re: Doc needs to tweak his system a little bit.
Post by: Edgar on November 18, 2012, 11:27:24 PM
As far as I know, no championship team has ever had only one player who plays over 30 minutes a game with an assist percentage over 20.  In 2008, both Rondo and Pierce were over 20.  Making everyone role players so one guy can get some assist mark doesn't work.

  Is that something you'd expect to know off the top of your head?

  In any case, it looks like none of the Spurs or Lakers teams that have won titles since 1999 had more than one player who plays over 30 minutes a game with an assist percentage over 20. So that's 9 out of the last 14 champs that don't meet your criteria.

Okay, clearly I didn't think my criteria through.  Basically, I hate watching a team where one guy monopolizes the ball to the tune of an assist percentage in the 40s or above unless that guy is Magic Johnson and they're playing at a fast pace.  Rondo's assist percentage in 2008 was 28.  There's no reason for him to have the ball all the time if it means his teammates stand around so much.

  So you've never enjoyed watching teams led by Thomas, Stockton, KJ, Kidd, Nash, Paul or Williams? Interesting.

  In any case, Rondo gets the team open shots and they score pretty efficiently, which is good for a team that tends to take low efficiency shots and doesn't have a ton of shot creators.


the problem with this celtics is that Rondos assist number comes from spot jumpers, and not like stocktons from Malone attacking

other than a couple of alleys i know....
Title: Re: Doc needs to tweak his system a little bit.
Post by: jdz101 on November 18, 2012, 11:29:59 PM
There is no shot blocking presence. AT ALL.

He should start from that.

This is a problem but I dont think its THE problem tonight.

This team should be able to allow 90-95 points on "lazy" defensive nights and still score 100-110 points to get the W. They have enough offensive talent.

We scored 75 points tonight when we have guys like Kevin Garnett, Paul Pierce, Jason Terry, Rajon Rondo, Courtney Lee and Leandro Barbosa.  That is a huge issue when these guys have all shown that they can fill it up consistently on a nightly basis for their respective teams in the past.
Title: Re: Doc needs to tweak his system a little bit.
Post by: More Banners on November 18, 2012, 11:57:43 PM
There is no shot blocking presence. AT ALL.

He should start from that.

This is a problem but I dont think its THE problem tonight.

This team should be able to allow 90-95 points on "lazy" defensive nights and still score 100-110 points to get the W. They have enough offensive talent.

We scored 75 points tonight when we have guys like Kevin Garnett, Paul Pierce, Jason Terry, Rajon Rondo, Courtney Lee and Leandro Barbosa.  That is a huge issue when these guys have all shown that they can fill it up consistently on a nightly basis for their respective teams in the past.

You mean the distant past, right?  KG hasn't exactly filled it up in a while, Barbosa is like 5 years removed from 6POY and that was with PHX in the D'Antoni years.  Pierce hasn't been a consistent scorer from night to night in a couple of years, either.
Title: Re: Doc needs to tweak his system a little bit.
Post by: blastoidesroidsnoids on November 19, 2012, 12:01:32 AM
There is no shot blocking presence. AT ALL.

He should start from that.

This is a problem but I dont think its THE problem tonight.

This team should be able to allow 90-95 points on "lazy" defensive nights and still score 100-110 points to get the W. They have enough offensive talent.

We scored 75 points tonight when we have guys like Kevin Garnett, Paul Pierce, Jason Terry, Rajon Rondo, Courtney Lee and Leandro Barbosa.  That is a huge issue when these guys have all shown that they can fill it up consistently on a nightly basis for their respective teams in the past.
  Pierce hasn't been a consistent scorer from night to night in a couple of years, either.
what are you on
Title: Re: Doc needs to tweak his system a little bit.
Post by: More Banners on November 19, 2012, 12:12:25 AM
There is no shot blocking presence. AT ALL.

He should start from that.

This is a problem but I dont think its THE problem tonight.

This team should be able to allow 90-95 points on "lazy" defensive nights and still score 100-110 points to get the W. They have enough offensive talent.

We scored 75 points tonight when we have guys like Kevin Garnett, Paul Pierce, Jason Terry, Rajon Rondo, Courtney Lee and Leandro Barbosa.  That is a huge issue when these guys have all shown that they can fill it up consistently on a nightly basis for their respective teams in the past.
  Pierce hasn't been a consistent scorer from night to night in a couple of years, either.
what are you on

His season averages are right at 19, but look at the game logs.  Plenty of stinkers, and clearly can be shut down by elite defenses now. 

Last year, he scored in the single digits in 10% of games.  The year before, it was 5 games, with more and more in the 10-14pt range, far off that 19pt average.  No consistency.  38 one game, 13 the next.  15/19 one night, 2-12 the next.
Title: Re: Doc needs to tweak his system a little bit.
Post by: jdz101 on November 19, 2012, 12:31:12 AM
There is no shot blocking presence. AT ALL.

He should start from that.

This is a problem but I dont think its THE problem tonight.

This team should be able to allow 90-95 points on "lazy" defensive nights and still score 100-110 points to get the W. They have enough offensive talent.

We scored 75 points tonight when we have guys like Kevin Garnett, Paul Pierce, Jason Terry, Rajon Rondo, Courtney Lee and Leandro Barbosa.  That is a huge issue when these guys have all shown that they can fill it up consistently on a nightly basis for their respective teams in the past.

You mean the distant past, right?  KG hasn't exactly filled it up in a while, Barbosa is like 5 years removed from 6POY and that was with PHX in the D'Antoni years.  Pierce hasn't been a consistent scorer from night to night in a couple of years, either.

Barbosa has shown THIS YEAR that he can fill it up really quickly, and Garnett has scored quickly and consistently when the team has provided him with good looks. The issue is not personnel. Those who think we need to do a blockbuster trade in order to score in high numbers are kidding themselves.
Title: Re: Doc needs to tweak his system a little bit.
Post by: CapnDunks on November 19, 2012, 02:45:55 AM
I feel like if Lee weren't having so much trouble getting settled and hitting his shots then Terry would be coming off the bench and running point more. Although IMO running these Ray plays are much of the reason Lee's been struggling in the first place.

I really don't get why they signed Terry if they're only going to play him off the ball.  When they signed him, they at least talked a good game.  They said they needed another guy who can handle the ball in pick and roll situations and create his own shot and Terry is that guy.  They're using him in the way that pushed Ray to Miami.  It's absolutely brilliant.

Terry is one of the best shooters in the league off the dribble.  He's also a good passer and very adept at bringing the ball up and walking into a three point shot.  They have him doing done of that.

I just don't understand why Doc pares everyone's talents down so Rondo can have the ball all the freaking time.

As far as I know, no championship team has ever had only one player who plays over 30 minutes a game with an assist percentage over 20.  In 2008, both Rondo and Pierce were over 20.  Making everyone role players so one guy can get some assist mark doesn't work.
Title: Re: Doc needs to tweak his system a little bit.
Post by: BballTim on November 19, 2012, 03:57:30 AM
As far as I know, no championship team has ever had only one player who plays over 30 minutes a game with an assist percentage over 20.  In 2008, both Rondo and Pierce were over 20.  Making everyone role players so one guy can get some assist mark doesn't work.

  Is that something you'd expect to know off the top of your head?

  In any case, it looks like none of the Spurs or Lakers teams that have won titles since 1999 had more than one player who plays over 30 minutes a game with an assist percentage over 20. So that's 9 out of the last 14 champs that don't meet your criteria.

Okay, clearly I didn't think my criteria through.  Basically, I hate watching a team where one guy monopolizes the ball to the tune of an assist percentage in the 40s or above unless that guy is Magic Johnson and they're playing at a fast pace.  Rondo's assist percentage in 2008 was 28.  There's no reason for him to have the ball all the time if it means his teammates stand around so much.

  So you've never enjoyed watching teams led by Thomas, Stockton, KJ, Kidd, Nash, Paul or Williams? Interesting.

  In any case, Rondo gets the team open shots and they score pretty efficiently, which is good for a team that tends to take low efficiency shots and doesn't have a ton of shot creators.


the problem with this celtics is that Rondos assist number comes from spot jumpers, and not like stocktons from Malone attacking

other than a couple of alleys i know....

  First of all, it's not Rondo's fault that he doesn't have a Karl Malone to pass the ball to. Secondly, Rondo's leading the league in assists at the rim by a fairly healthy margin right now, and he's been top 3 in that category each of the last 3 years. Those alley oops add up.
Title: Re: Doc needs to tweak his system a little bit.
Post by: chambers on November 19, 2012, 03:59:01 AM
I love when people say 'I wonder how many rings we'd have if so and so was coaching instead of Doc'

Roc Rivers is regarded as his peers as the best or second best coach in the NBA in contention with Greg Popovich.

Stop please haters.
Title: Re: Doc needs to tweak his system a little bit.
Post by: jdz101 on November 19, 2012, 06:03:54 AM
I love when people say 'I wonder how many rings we'd have if so and so was coaching instead of Doc'

Roc Rivers is regarded as his peers as the best or second best coach in the NBA in contention with Greg Popovich.

Stop please haters.

I love doc as a coach...

I thought I was pretty objective about how I thought the offense needed to be simplified a little bit.

Was definitely not hate towards doc.
Title: Re: Doc needs to tweak his system a little bit.
Post by: chambers on November 19, 2012, 07:08:08 AM
I love when people say 'I wonder how many rings we'd have if so and so was coaching instead of Doc'

Roc Rivers is regarded as his peers as the best or second best coach in the NBA in contention with Greg Popovich.

Stop please haters.

I love doc as a coach...

I thought I was pretty objective about how I thought the offense needed to be simplified a little bit.

Was definitely not hate towards doc.

Nothing wrong with your original post, no diss intended at all. I'm laughing at some of the replies to your opinion.
Title: Re: Doc needs to tweak his system a little bit.
Post by: scaryjerry on November 19, 2012, 08:30:36 AM
I love when people say 'I wonder how many rings we'd have if so and so was coaching instead of Doc'

Roc Rivers is regarded as his peers as the best or second best coach in the NBA in contention with Greg Popovich.

Stop please haters.

those peers also thought he was the worst coach in the nba before KG im sure...so who really cares, doc is not on the level of popovich...just stop
Title: Re: Doc needs to tweak his system a little bit.
Post by: More Banners on November 19, 2012, 09:45:47 AM
I love when people say 'I wonder how many rings we'd have if so and so was coaching instead of Doc'

Roc Rivers is regarded as his peers as the best or second best coach in the NBA in contention with Greg Popovich.

Stop please haters.

those peers also thought he was the worst coach in the nba before KG im sure...so who really cares, doc is not on the level of popovich...just stop

Doc's probably a lot like McHale in many ways as a coach.  He falls in love with his roster and drastically favors the position he played as a player, plus players seem to really like him and like playing for him.  McHale might be a better teacher of the game, Doc might be better in-game (if it's possible for him to be better than anyone) simply due to sideline experience.
Title: Re: Doc needs to tweak his system a little bit.
Post by: RyNye on November 19, 2012, 10:16:56 AM
Honestly, it is highly unlikely that this team would have had any more success with Pop then with Rivers, or any other coach.

I mean, the reason we didn't win more championships were injury related, which Pop couldn't have done a thing about. So 2009 and 2010 wouldn't have been any different, unless Pop magically stopped KG and Perk's knees from exploding.

Also, I love how people are complaining about things that the statistics specifically show are false. As someone already mentioned, Rondo is leading the league in assists at the rim (as well as overall assists). If you look at our plus/minus numbers, PER, WS, or any other metric you care to look at, we are better with Rondo than not with Rondo.

Yes, our team is not playing well right now. Every team has stretches like this. Heck, the Cs have started off seasons slowly twice in recent memory, and came back roaring later. Can we SERIOUSLY stop hyperventilating and making up complaints that aren't even true every time there is a loss? This isn't Jordan's Bulls that are going to win 70 games, we are going to have losses. You will add 10 years to your lifespan if you just calm the $*&*# down.
Title: Re: Doc needs to tweak his system a little bit.
Post by: celtics2 on November 19, 2012, 10:24:34 AM
Another Doc Rivers team underachieving  ::). Sometimes I ponder what Gregg Popovich could do with this roster. And if he was head coach of the Celtics, how many more championship rings would be on KG's finger?

1 more.
Title: Re: Doc needs to tweak his system a little bit.
Post by: wdleehi on November 19, 2012, 10:26:15 AM
I thought the same thing earlier. 

To much of the offense takes advantage of Ray's strengths. 



I rather see if they could add something that plays to Terry's strength. 
Title: Re: Doc needs to tweak his system a little bit.
Post by: Chris on November 19, 2012, 10:32:35 AM
I thought the same thing earlier. 

To much of the offense takes advantage of Ray's strengths. 



I rather see if they could add something that plays to Terry's strength.

Yeah, I agree.  I think one of the real problems though, is that Lee wasn't able to really fit in with the starting unit yet. 

I think the starting units offense works well (at least when they are hitting their shots), and Terry has been able to slide in there, and fit in well.  But, you are then losing his ability to create shots for the second unit.

This is all a work in progress, and a lot will change when Bradley is back, so grain of salt and all that...but I really think this team will be at their best by the end of the season, if they are able to bring Terry off the bench, and allow him to create his own shot more, off the dribble.
Title: Re: Doc needs to tweak his system a little bit.
Post by: Fafnir on November 19, 2012, 10:34:45 AM
Yeah I'd rather Terry be in that role than Barbossa.
Title: Re: Doc needs to tweak his system a little bit.
Post by: jdz101 on November 19, 2012, 10:37:19 AM
I love when people say 'I wonder how many rings we'd have if so and so was coaching instead of Doc'

Roc Rivers is regarded as his peers as the best or second best coach in the NBA in contention with Greg Popovich.

Stop please haters.

I love doc as a coach...

I thought I was pretty objective about how I thought the offense needed to be simplified a little bit.

Was definitely not hate towards doc.

Nothing wrong with your original post, no diss intended at all. I'm laughing at some of the replies to your opinion.

Ahh ok no problem.

Just wanted to clarify.  8)
Title: Re: Doc needs to tweak his system a little bit.
Post by: Chris on November 19, 2012, 10:45:58 AM
Yeah I'd rather Terry be in that role than Barbossa.

I don't completely get Doc's insistence of not playing Terry on the ball.  But I will give him the benefit of the doubt at this point in the season.  I think part of it might be to try to prevent him from getting into the bad habit nearly every other shoot first PG they have brought in has gotten into early in their tenure, of overpassing, and losing their shot.

...at least thats what I hope it is.  And he plans on putting the ball in his hands more, as the season progresses.

But anyways, I expect when Bradley returns, that Terry will be taking most of Barbosa's minutes, and Barbosa will be kind of a secret weapon, in case no one can score, rather than a regular rotation player. 
Title: Re: Doc needs to tweak his system a little bit.
Post by: papa shuttlesworth on November 19, 2012, 11:23:11 AM
I realize that this thread is about the Celtics' offense, but I have been thinking for the past few games that the defense might also need some changing up.

(For the record, I also believe that the defense is going to get a lot stronger as the new guys learn the system and also when Bradley comes back.)

I think that Thibideau's strong side defense that the Celtics have been using for all these years might be becoming stale. At first (actually for 4 or 5 years), no one could score against it. But now, as more teams use it and teams have seen it so much, they can really plan on ways to beat it. Lawrence Frank probably knows its weaknesses better than most, but when the Pistons routinely counter it and get whatever shot they want, it might mean that changes need to be made. Maybe not huge changes, but some tweaks.

Or just bring back Bradley ASAP.
Title: Re: Doc needs to tweak his system a little bit.
Post by: Brendan on November 19, 2012, 11:29:37 AM
Doc is Doc. Those who remember 2007 remember a coach that has a hard time settling on a rotation when the talent on the roster doesn't dictate it. In 2007 only when injuries destroyed the depth chart did the team ever get a stable rotation. I'm of the belief that guys need run to play well. Yes KG and PP need to be managed to stay fresh, but other guys need more minutes to play well.

In 2008 this was an obvious decision for him (starters were obvious, Posey as 6th man - obvious, once they had brown as first big - obvious.) The more difficult decisions (Powe or BBD, House or Cassel) he struggled with all year.

One idea that might help this team is to use Pierce off the bench (granted I have no idea if Pierce would be willing to do this). It would help get Green more minutes with Rondo (Green is not a primary creator) and give the first unit a better ability to run: Rondo, Lee, Green, Bass, KG could get up and down the floor. It would give the bench two creators in Terry and Pierce backing up the guard/wing spots - ensuring when Rondo is out the offense doesn't become stagnant. It would keep Pierce fresh by reducing his minutes.

Most importantly it might stabilize the minutes rotation as Pierce off the bench can play wing behind Lee & Green. Terry can play combo guard behind Lee / Rondo.

That's a solid 5 man rotation for those spots. Last step is that Doc needs to get his big man rotation in order. I'm against more than 5-10 minutes of small ball a game. I think Sullinger, Bass, and Wilcox are all serviceable at PF. Wilcox is not terrible at C, but not a great option either. The real problem with this team is a lack of depth behind KG at C. Hopefully Darko gets healthy and can play, but absent that the C's need to consider moving some of their superflous depth to get a C.

The rest of the depth behind the top 9 needs to be relegated to a real bench role.
Title: Re: Doc needs to tweak his system a little bit.
Post by: More Banners on November 19, 2012, 12:02:35 PM
Doc is Doc. Those who remember 2007 remember a coach that has a hard time settling on a rotation when the talent on the roster doesn't dictate it. In 2007 only when injuries destroyed the depth chart did the team ever get a stable rotation. I'm of the belief that guys need run to play well. Yes KG and PP need to be managed to stay fresh, but other guys need more minutes to play well.

In 2008 this was an obvious decision for him (starters were obvious, Posey as 6th man - obvious, once they had brown as first big - obvious.) The more difficult decisions (Powe or BBD, House or Cassel) he struggled with all year.

One idea that might help this team is to use Pierce off the bench (granted I have no idea if Pierce would be willing to do this). It would help get Green more minutes with Rondo (Green is not a primary creator) and give the first unit a better ability to run: Rondo, Lee, Green, Bass, KG could get up and down the floor. It would give the bench two creators in Terry and Pierce backing up the guard/wing spots - ensuring when Rondo is out the offense doesn't become stagnant. It would keep Pierce fresh by reducing his minutes.

Most importantly it might stabilize the minutes rotation as Pierce off the bench can play wing behind Lee & Green. Terry can play combo guard behind Lee / Rondo.

That's a solid 5 man rotation for those spots. Last step is that Doc needs to get his big man rotation in order. I'm against more than 5-10 minutes of small ball a game. I think Sullinger, Bass, and Wilcox are all serviceable at PF. Wilcox is not terrible at C, but not a great option either. The real problem with this team is a lack of depth behind KG at C. Hopefully Darko gets healthy and can play, but absent that the C's need to consider moving some of their superflous depth to get a C.

The rest of the depth behind the top 9 needs to be relegated to a real bench role.

This is very true about Doc-TP4U.

And it's the problem with the early Doc/Danny years' rosters (mediocrity) and the current one (bunch of players with comparable ability overall, but different strengths/weaknesses).

Rhythm is important, as are clear roles.  We saw some role players struggle when their roles changed, were inconsistent (rebound one night, score the next), or were undefined (e.g. "basketball player").

I suppose some might say Doc gives everyone a chance to earn it when there isn't a clear superior player, but it just looks like a minutes mess to me.
Title: Re: Doc needs to tweak his system a little bit.
Post by: mgent on November 20, 2012, 10:30:48 AM
There is no shot blocking presence. AT ALL.

He should start from that.

This is a problem but I dont think its THE problem tonight.

This team should be able to allow 90-95 points on "lazy" defensive nights and still score 100-110 points to get the W. They have enough offensive talent.

We scored 75 points tonight when we have guys like Kevin Garnett, Paul Pierce, Jason Terry, Rajon Rondo, Courtney Lee and Leandro Barbosa.  That is a huge issue when these guys have all shown that they can fill it up consistently on a nightly basis for their respective teams in the past.
You seem to forget we lost our 2nd leading scorer for the past 5 years (and probably our most efficient).  That's a lot of points to just snap your fingers and replace, let alone add an additional 10-15 points onto that.

I've personally been talking about Doc tweaking the system for 3 years now.  We saw what it can do when Pop was able to suddenly turn the same roster into the best offense 2 years ago.

Our current system was perfect in 08.  It allowed Pierce to run around, almost playing point forward, and score 19 points while getting Ray and KG open enough to score ~17.  Rondo made it so everybody else scored enough and stayed involved.  Now, Rondo still does the same thing, but we've still been relying on the Big 3 to take care of the scoring load.  Instead we need a system that takes advantage of Rondo's improvements.
Title: Re: Doc needs to tweak his system a little bit.
Post by: Lightskinsmurf on November 20, 2012, 11:04:45 AM
Yeah I'd rather Terry be in that role than Barbossa.

I don't completely get Doc's insistence of not playing Terry on the ball.  But I will give him the benefit of the doubt at this point in the season.  I think part of it might be to try to prevent him from getting into the bad habit nearly every other shoot first PG they have brought in has gotten into early in their tenure, of overpassing, and losing their shot.

...at least thats what I hope it is.  And he plans on putting the ball in his hands more, as the season progresses.

But anyways, I expect when Bradley returns, that Terry will be taking most of Barbosa's minutes, and Barbosa will be kind of a secret weapon, in case no one can score, rather than a regular rotation player.

I feel like people give doc that a little too much.
Title: Re: Doc needs to tweak his system a little bit.
Post by: BudweiserCeltic on November 20, 2012, 02:06:07 PM
We need to remove the ball from Rondo, Pierce, and Barbosa's hands. Once that happens, I think we'll see our offense improve. Not that these 3 haven't been productive, but the ball is sticking too much when they grab the ball.

Same can be said for Bass, but for the most part, he's there to shoot the open jumper.
Title: Re: Doc needs to tweak his system a little bit.
Post by: Fafnir on November 20, 2012, 02:11:03 PM
We need to remove the ball from Rondo, Pierce, and Barbosa's hands. Once that happens, I think we'll see our offense improve. Not that these 3 haven't been productive, but the ball is sticking too much when they grab the ball.
So you want Bass, KG, Terry, Lee, Sullinger, and Wilcox to be our playmakers?

Good luck with that.

We're 6th in TS%, 11th in TOV%, 4th in FT per FGA, and 30th in offensive rebounding. I struggle to see how removing the ball from our playmakers hands will help the one category that could really use a boost.

While we haven't been playing the toughest schedule defensively to start the season it hasn't been our offense that's the issue.
Title: Re: Doc needs to tweak his system a little bit.
Post by: Lightskinsmurf on November 20, 2012, 02:12:54 PM
We need to remove the ball from Rondo, Pierce, and Barbosa's hands. Once that happens, I think we'll see our offense improve. Not that these 3 haven't been productive, but the ball is sticking too much when they grab the ball.

Same can be said for Bass, but for the most part, he's there to shoot the open jumper.

 ???
Title: Re: Doc needs to tweak his system a little bit.
Post by: BudweiserCeltic on November 20, 2012, 02:18:26 PM
We need to remove the ball from Rondo, Pierce, and Barbosa's hands. Once that happens, I think we'll see our offense improve. Not that these 3 haven't been productive, but the ball is sticking too much when they grab the ball.
So you want Bass, KG, Terry, Lee, Sullinger, and Wilcox to be our playmakers?

Good luck with that.

We're 6th in TS%, 11th in TOV%, 4th in FT per FGA, and 30th in offensive rebounding. I struggle to see how removing the ball from our playmakers hands will help the one category that could really use a boost.

While we haven't been playing the toughest schedule defensively to start the season it hasn't been our offense that's the issue.

I want the ball to move, and these 3 aren't doing doing a good job of making that happen. Problem is that the first two are essential to our offense, so obviously, they need to have the ball in their hands, but I think they need to get the ball moving earlier in the shot clock and have the ball pass through them often in offensive possessions, but not hold to the ball as they've been doing.

As for Barbosa, I much rather have Terry handling the ball in all honesty.

The result of this is that players like Terry, Green, and Lee are barely touching the ball throughout the game, there's no rhythm to our offense. That we get results is because Rondo does find open players, but also because we are littered with good offensive players, not necessarily because we're running a good offensive system.

There are other options, if we want Rondo to keep the ball throughout the full shot-clock, then we need to increase the pick setting on his defender, and he needs to be more aggressive towards the basket. And he needs to improve the pace. He's playing too slow at the moment. It's not an all or nothing, but as it stands,  I don't like the way our offense is running with some of our offensive weapons not touching the ball through much of the game.
Title: Re: Doc needs to tweak his system a little bit.
Post by: Fafnir on November 20, 2012, 02:24:02 PM
Rondo having the ball less so that Terry, Lee, Green get more chances with it doesn't strike me as a great formula.

Lee and Green aren't playmakers, they just aren't. Lee is a shooter and cutter and Green is just mediocre unless he's got a clear offensive mismatch.

I'm all for Terry getting more chances to create, but I understand why he hasn't as he hasn't done much with the chances we've given him.

In the end Rondo is our best playmaker by a huge margin right now, that's why he has the ball.

Again none of this strikes to the core of our issues, which is defense and rebounding.
Title: Re: Doc needs to tweak his system a little bit.
Post by: BudweiserCeltic on November 20, 2012, 02:31:08 PM
Rondo having the ball less so that Terry, Lee, Green get more chances with it doesn't strike me as a great formula.

Lee and Green aren't playmakers, they just aren't. Lee is a shooter and cutter and Green is just mediocre unless he's got a clear offensive mismatch.

I'm all for Terry getting more chances to create, but I understand why he hasn't as he hasn't done much with the chances we've given him.

In the end Rondo is our best playmaker by a huge margin right now, that's why he has the ball.

Again none of this strikes to the core of our issues, which is defense and rebounding.

The idea is not to put the ball in other playmakers, the idea is to make the defense work so it leads to easy baskets. We're not making the defense work because we're all standing around watching Rondo dribble out the clock. If not, we're giving the ball to Pierce who is dribbling into 4 defenders and not making the pass.

Our current system has a very poor rhythm and it's very predictable. Our perimeter offense has been putrid because we're not making the defense work. If Rondo is going to hold the ball for as long as he is in our offense, then he needs to carry a bigger burden of our offense.
Title: Re: Doc needs to tweak his system a little bit.
Post by: Fafnir on November 20, 2012, 02:34:32 PM
Our perimeter offense has been putrid because we're not making the defense work. If Rondo is going to hold the ball for as long as he is in our offense, then he needs to carry a bigger burden of our offense.
Here's the problem you think our offense is putrid because you don't enjoy watching it. Unfortunately the results don't bare out that our offense is putrid currently.

I do agree that there isn't enough off the ball movement consistently for the C's. But the answer to that isn't to pass the ball around the perimeter without a purpose.

If you want to see putrid offense, give it to even worse playmakers than Rondo and watch them try to break down the defense with players sagging off of Rondo.
Title: Re: Doc needs to tweak his system a little bit.
Post by: BudweiserCeltic on November 20, 2012, 02:39:24 PM
Our perimeter offense has been putrid because we're not making the defense work. If Rondo is going to hold the ball for as long as he is in our offense, then he needs to carry a bigger burden of our offense.
Here's the problem you think our offense is putrid because you don't enjoy watching it. Unfortunately the results don't bare out that our offense is putrid currently.

I do agree that there isn't enough off the ball movement consistently for the C's. But the answer to that isn't to pass the ball around the perimeter without a purpose.

If you want to see putrid offense, give it to even worse playmakers than Rondo and watch them try to break down the defense with players sagging off of Rondo.

Then pass the ball back to Rondo and make them pay for it, it's that simple.

You're equalizing moving the ball to lack of Rondo involvement in our offense, which is simply not true or what I'm proposing.
Title: Re: Doc needs to tweak his system a little bit.
Post by: pearljammer10 on November 20, 2012, 02:51:02 PM
Things Id change are

(Obviously) less small ball...

Spot running Ray Allen's plays with Terry because it takes way too long to get into the offense. Plus, Terry runs off screens opposite then what he should, anyone else notice this?

More plays with better ball and off ball movement on offense. We take too many seconds trying to feed the ball into the post and we waste a lot of time stand around watching this happen.
Title: Re: Doc needs to tweak his system a little bit.
Post by: BballTim on November 20, 2012, 03:10:48 PM
Our current system has a very poor rhythm and it's very predictable. Our perimeter offense has been putrid because we're not making the defense work. If Rondo is going to hold the ball for as long as he is in our offense, then he needs to carry a bigger burden of our offense.

  Our fg% from 10-15 feet, 16-23 feet and on threes are all above the league average. Exactly what do you mean by "Our perimeter offense has been putrid"?

 
Title: Re: Doc needs to tweak his system a little bit.
Post by: Fafnir on November 20, 2012, 03:27:29 PM
Our current system has a very poor rhythm and it's very predictable. Our perimeter offense has been putrid because we're not making the defense work. If Rondo is going to hold the ball for as long as he is in our offense, then he needs to carry a bigger burden of our offense.

  Our fg% from 10-15 feet, 16-23 feet and on threes are all above the league average. Exactly what do you mean by "Our perimeter offense has been putrid"?

 
I am worried that our offense will regress to lower levels once our schedule is more balanced with solid defensive squads. But that's something we'll have to wait an see on.

(AKA playing the Wizards twice helps your offensive ratings)
Title: Re: Doc needs to tweak his system a little bit.
Post by: BudweiserCeltic on November 20, 2012, 05:45:01 PM
Our current system has a very poor rhythm and it's very predictable. Our perimeter offense has been putrid because we're not making the defense work. If Rondo is going to hold the ball for as long as he is in our offense, then he needs to carry a bigger burden of our offense.

  Our fg% from 10-15 feet, 16-23 feet and on threes are all above the league average. Exactly what do you mean by "Our perimeter offense has been putrid"?


I'm mainly focusing on the three ball, and I guess putrid is a bit of an overstatement, but sorry if I'm not comfortable with "above average", then you see that we're 28th in the league in 3-point attempts, and you'll see where I'm coming from. Well our pace is slow, so we don't put as many shots as other teams... while true, consider that we're 27th in the league in percentage of shots taken vs total FG attempts.

We don't do enough to get our shooters open (or give them the ball when they are for that matter). While we want to get away from being a jump shooting team, fact of the matter is that we have some very dangerous 3-point shooters in our team, particularly from the corner, who aren't being used much in that capacity.

But that said, Lee has been shooting it poorly, but that goes back to these players not being in any sort of rhythm offensively because they're rarely touching the ball as it is, but the onus is on him to make the shots when given. He hasn't done it.

So in many regards, highly disappointed with our perimeter effort.
Title: Re: Doc needs to tweak his system a little bit.
Post by: jdz101 on November 20, 2012, 07:50:33 PM
As for the 3 point problem.

Honestly I'd rather a couple of Bass's long two point shots turn into another swing pass to a 3 point shooter.

Right now with rondo when he drives he is looking to dump off inside or get an immediate assist whereas he could just drive and kick to a wing, who could then make another pass to a guy that's free. A LOT of open 3s seems to result from a drive and kick, then one extra perimeter swing pass.
Title: Re: Doc needs to tweak his system a little bit.
Post by: cman88 on November 20, 2012, 08:00:14 PM
I think they are mis-using certain players honestly....

Terry- his strength is giving him the ball and letting him score. but they seem to be using him like Ray allen, just running off screens.

Jeff Green- they need to run plays to get him going to the basket instead of having him set screens/stretch the floor at the 3 point line.