CelticsStrong
Celtics Basketball => Celtics Talk => Topic started by: ScoobyDoo on November 12, 2012, 11:46:07 AM
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I'm getting pretty tired of seeing real small lineups on the floor whenever KG comes out.
Has Doc even used Milicic or Collins at all yet in a regular season game?
I know neither are all stars but at least they give us some height and muscle in the paint and at the rim.
I'd like to see the following combinations at least "tried".
Milicic
Bass or Wilcox
Collins
Bass or Wilcox
Green
Jet
Barbosa
Milicic
Sullinger
Pierce
Lee
Rondo
I knwo both Collins and Darko are marginal, but we have more than enough talent to put around them in a lineup when KG is out to cover their weaknesses.
I thought both Kevin Seraphin and Dalembert presented opportuntiies to use Milicic and Collins.
I also would have used Milicic or Collins to throw some weight around against Miami.
I really hate the small ball focus - I think we should be dictating the matchups and use our bigs to muscle teams a little more.
At least try it.
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Right now, I am OK with Wilcox being the backup C as long as he gets enough minutes to keep the Celtics from being small or short lineups for extended periods.
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I thought Doc did well with the rotations against the Bucks, so I'm comfortable with that.
I wanted Wilcox to start, absent of that, him being the first big off the bench, instead of Sully, works out the same.
Now, I don't want any more Jason Terry with the starters. Either go with Lee, or move Pierce to SG and start Green at SF.
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Right now, I am OK with Wilcox being the backup C as long as he gets enough minutes to keep the Celtics from being small or short lineups for extended periods.
Agreed. I don't think Sully and Bass were on the floor together at all during the last Milwaukee game.
Doc's still going to run some small ball, but with Wilcox rounding into shape it's by choice and not necessity. I can deal with that.
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Wilcox is a nice addition - would like to see Milicic / Collins mixed in for a few minutes as well though.
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Right now, I am OK with Wilcox being the backup C as long as he gets enough minutes to keep the Celtics from being small or short lineups for extended periods.
Agreed. I hope we have seen the end of the Bass/Sully combo playing together, short of very specific matchups in rare occasions.
Now, its up to Darko to beat out Wilcox for those backup center minutes. As long as one of them is playing when KG is not on the floor, I am happy, regardless of which one of them it is.
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I like Wilcox coming off the bench in place of KG. at least we haven't been as terrible when Garnett's off the floor with Wilcox in his place. We still need to see some darko however. I know small ball is going to be a reoccurring theme this season but we got get bigs in there. Darko is an intimidating figure that can clog up the middle and really take up some space and effect shots inside. We give up way too many points in the paint.
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I've got nothing against seeing Darko get some minutes, but I've got nothing against seeing him not get minutes, either.
His legend is growing way out of proportion to what he's actually accomplished over his career.
Darko, the Saviour!!!
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Just guessing, but I'm pretty sure that Milicic is kept out as a precaution. Better safe than sorry when it comes to a wrist injury like his. One setback might ruin his season, like what happened for JO.
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DArko would look cool in a Frankenstein outfit.
If his wrist is really bad , then we don't want to hurt the dude , we are gonna need him BAD when we play Duncan , Howard , Hilbert , ect.
So yeah , leave the dude on the bench till he is better, hope its not one of those "SURGERY" deals already :'( ???
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Maybe Doc will just play Sullinger for a month and after that time all of Sullinger's minutes will go to Wilcox and Darko.
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I like Wilcox as much as anyone, but he is a little turnover prone and he doesn't have much of a presence on defense.
Darko has the potential to have a huge defensive impact and partially make up for what we loose when KG sits. He gives us a different skill set compared to Wilcox. Hell I wouldn't even mind seeing Darko AND Wilcox out there together! Would be a nice rebounding front court with good size and a nice off/def balance.
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I like Wilcox as much as anyone, but he is a little turnover prone and he doesn't have much of a presence on defense.
Darko has the potential to have a huge defensive impact and partially make up for what we loose when KG sits. He gives us a different skill set compared to Wilcox. Hell I wouldn't even mind seeing Darko AND Wilcox out there together! Would be a nice rebounding front court with good size and a nice off/def balance.
Me too! Wilcox quickness and Darko protecting the rim , together they might equal what we loose (kind of) ;D when KG sits down. Throw in a ACTIVE green and Bradley in with them and that might be a pretty good unit. ...one day...just dreaming ;)
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Hell I wouldn't even mind seeing Darko AND Wilcox out there together! Would be a nice rebounding front court with good size and a nice off/def balance.
Send one dude with a knife and one dude with a shield together into a gunfight and the only thing balanced about them is that both are dead.
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DArko would look cool in a Frankenstein outfit.
If his wrist is really bad , then we don't want to hurt the dude , we are gonna need him BAD when we play Duncan , Howard , Hilbert , ect.
So yeah , leave the dude on the bench till he is better, hope its not one of those "SURGERY" deals already :'( ???
Rofl
and sheesh you're giving me JO flashbacks
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I think the real key to success might be what Doc did last game: scale back Sullinger's minutes.
I like Sully, but we need to 1) get bigger lineups on the floor and 2) find more minutes for Jeff Green so he can get a rhythm going. Cutting Sullinger's minutes down accomplishes both, as it gets rid of the super small Sully/Bass lineups and frees up some more minutes at the 4 for Green.
If we keep doing this, I don't think we need to go to Darko unless we play big teams. I think Wilcox is OK if Doc feels he's the better option.
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Good point on Sullinger Jon. I'd like to see the kid play, but no problem with limiting his minutes kind of along the lines of BBD in his first year.
Every now and then a game comes along where he gets extended minutes because the match ups warrant it or Sully's having a good run.
I'd still like to see some bigger lineups where we beat on people a little bit. I would have liked to see Milicic rough up Dalembert a little, or lay a body on Seraphin or Hawes for a few minutes - lean on Bosh, deck him, bang a little with Haslem...
I just think it would also help our depth and resting guys all season if between Darko and Collins we can find 5-10 minutes a night for them.That's 10 minutes less per game of wear and tear on KG and Wilcox all season.
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We will need to go big to beat Miami IMO.
Small ball doesn't work with them when they have advantages at 3 positions. Unless I am underrating Bradley here, I just don't see us beating them at their own game.
That means Doc needs to figure out if Darko can actually contribute and clog the paint. The only way to do that is to actually play him.
Memphis just beat Miami with size. Granted, Darko is no Marc Gasol in skill, but he is similar in size/strength. With the right PG to feed him when open and the right defensive scheme, he could be a very productive bakup center.
I think Doc is trying to figure out his guard rotation (will only get harder next month) and how to use Green right now, but Darko will get his chance eventually.
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We will need to go big to beat Miami IMO.
Small ball doesn't work with them when they have advantages at 3 positions. Unless I am underrating Bradley here, I just don't see us beating them at their own game.
That means Doc needs to figure out if Darko can actually contribute and clog the paint. The only way to do that is to actually play him.
Memphis just beat Miami with size. Granted, Darko is no Marc Gasol in skill, but he is similar in size/strength. With the right PG to feed him when open and the right defensive scheme, he could be a very productive bakup center.
I think Doc is trying to figure out his guard rotation (will only get harder next month) and how to use Green right now, but Darko will get his chance eventually.
I agree completely that we need to go big. We need to control the boards and bump people out of their spots. We need to change shots inside. A few hard fouls are okay with me when setting the tone, too.
Is Darko the guy? I think he's our only true pivot besides Collins, so I hope so.
But I think he can play next to any other guy and it would work (KG, Wilcox, Bass, Sully, Green). Is he mobile enough to rotate to defend the rim? That's the question.
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I just wanna see darko and collins play. Id be satisfied if i watched them play a week or two and they turned out to be complete trash. I hate just burying them on the bench from day 1 tho. Beyond frustrating for me at least.
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We will need to go big to beat Miami IMO.
Small ball doesn't work with them when they have advantages at 3 positions. Unless I am underrating Bradley here, I just don't see us beating them at their own game.
That means Doc needs to figure out if Darko can actually contribute and clog the paint. The only way to do that is to actually play him.
Memphis just beat Miami with size. Granted, Darko is no Marc Gasol in skill, but he is similar in size/strength. With the right PG to feed him when open and the right defensive scheme, he could be a very productive bakup center.
I think Doc is trying to figure out his guard rotation (will only get harder next month) and how to use Green right now, but Darko will get his chance eventually.
The Celtics do not have the right kind of big.
They need a big that can be a true low post threat to take advantage of Bosh's size at C.
Not that playing small against the Heat is great way to go as well.
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I just wanna see darko and collins play. Id be satisfied if i watched them play a week or two and they turned out to be complete trash. I hate just burying them on the bench from day 1 tho. Beyond frustrating for me at least.
While I agree with this completely, I need to point out, this is purely a fan thing. I trust the coaches to be able to make these decisions, because they have a lot more information to work with. It won't lessen my frustration with not being able to see for myself whats going on in practice though.
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Yeah, that's pretty much my sentiment with Darko. I realize we have a lot of athletic guys and that's great.
But I really thought we should have beat the crap out of Miami, really throw some weight around.
LeBron has it over Pierce at this point in their careers. Green helps but it's not enough.
If Bradley comes back fully healthy, I actually think we are a wash with them with Bradley / Lee Vs Wade and Allen. Mainly because I'm confident that Bradley will give Wade "fits" defensively. I don't think Wade is quick enough to get around Bradley without a lot of help.
KG / Bosh - that's wash to me, mainly because of Bosh's age. Though I'd take Garnett when the money's on the line.
But as someone just said, why are we trying to beat Miami at what their skill set is?
I'd put a lot of speed on the wings, but I'd go very big on the inside -
Darko & KG
KG & Wilcox
Collin and Bass
Etc...
I'd also beat the crap out of Philly.
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Yeah, that's pretty much my sentiment with Darko. I realize we have a lot of athletic guys and that's great.
But I really thought we should have beat the crap out of Miami, really throw some weight around.
LeBron has it over Pierce at this point in their careers. Green helps but it's not enough.
If Bradley comes back fully healthy, I actually think we are a wash with them with Bradley / Lee Vs Wade and Allen. Mainly because I'm confident that Bradley will give Wade "fits" defensively. I don't think Wade is quick enough to get around Bradley without a lot of help.
KG / Bosh - that's wash to me, mainly because of Bosh's age. Though I'd take Garnett when the money's on the line.
But as someone just said, why are we trying to beat Miami at what their skill set is?
I'd put a lot of speed on the wings, but I'd go very big on the inside -
Darko & KG
KG & Wilcox
Collin and Bass
Etc...
I'd also beat the crap out of Philly.
All that's great...if they can defend the pick and roll. If not, then you are just asking for guys to foul out in 2 minutes, as Lebron and Wade tear apart the C's defense.
Hopefully, by the end of the season, the C's will have more big guys who can defend the pick and roll, so they can try to go bigger. But until then, they are better off with guys who can actually play within the defense, than just a big body.
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True.
Maybe Bradley coming back will open more opportunities fro Darko as their will be less dribble drive with Rondo AND Bradley hawking the perimeter.
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I'd guess collins & darko can come in and play. Celtics might be trying to get sully minutes to learn how to play better defense (needs work) . If he can have that figured his ceiling is higher than either big. No matter what those 2 will give us minutes when a true big center is needed. Darko might still be nursing the wrist, hard to say.
I'd hope by all star break we are running on all cylinders and can offer rondo, pierce and garnett games off. WHO CARES WHAT OUR RECORD IS DURING SEASON. We need those 3 healthy and rested for playoffs. Our team is deep, develop everyone and use everyone giving guys breaks when needed.
another idea is both collins and darko are offensive liabilities maybe doc is trying to get the offense running smoothly before giving either guy time?
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Doc !!!! Free Darko ...wouldn't he be useful againt BIG AL ?? ???
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Doc !!!! Free Darko ...wouldn't he be useful againt BIG AL ?? ???
That will actually be interesting to watch. If there ever were a game for either Darko or Collins to make an appearance, this could be it. Not only for Big Al, but also Kanter.
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Doc !!!! Free Darko ...wouldn't he be useful againt BIG AL ?? ???
That will actually be interesting to watch. If there ever were a game for either Darko or Collins to make an appearance, this could be it. Not only for Big Al, but also Kanter.
Just thinking the same thing. Seems if DArko is healthy m this might be a chance to see him and Collins work.
Seems to me... as built now , the Celtics need to defend closer to the rim on defense and push the ball inside on offense.
Just Wilcox's size has made a Huge diff , as KG sits , I convinced small ball is totally wrong for this team.
I'm for TREE ball , not small. ;D
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Doc !!!! Free Darko ...wouldn't he be useful againt BIG AL ?? ???
That will actually be interesting to watch. If there ever were a game for either Darko or Collins to make an appearance, this could be it. Not only for Big Al, but also Kanter.
Just thinking the same thing. Seems if DArko is healthy m this might be a chance to see him and Collins work.
Seems to me... as built now , the Celtics need to defend the rim on defense and push the ball inside on offense.
Just Wilcox's size has made a Huge diff , as KG sits , I convinced small ball is totally wrong for this team.
I'm for TREE ball , not small. ;D
Just joining the chorus, here: Ditto all that folks have been saying here.
The +/- numbers are still small (young season) but so far they totally back this up.
Of our various 5-man combinations, without Wilcox, our top NINE lineups all would include Garnett. In other words, the drop-off when sending KG to the bench was to put our 10th worst 5-man combination on the floor.
With, Wilcox, we have non-KG lineups as our 2nd, 4th & 9th best lineups.
In particular, our (currently) #2 lineup also lets Pierce rest: Rondo, Terry, Green, Bass & Wilcox - so far that lineup is +12.
Now, those facts are all based on 'total' +/- and are not normalized by possession or per minute. So take them with a big grain of salt. It's still too early and none of the stat sites are posting normalized efficiency numbers yet.
But the fact is, that without Wilcox, our non-KG units have sucked horribly. With him, they've gotten new life!
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I agree with the observations that Wilcox has alleviated some big man concerns. I think Doc is now simultaneously subbing Wilcox and Sully for KG and Bass in the first period and it has worked pretty well. I'm concerned about Wilcox staying healthy and I'd like to see the combo work consistently but so far so good.
I still think we are struggling on the perimeter and we are in a very precarious position at the SF position. I don't know about the rest of you, but when Green turned his ankle I became very aware of how thin we are backing up Pierce. I mean Green isn't even a perfect fit at SF as it is. Really wish Danny could figure out how to get Pietrus back...
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Provided he is healthy, a Darko-Kanter battle might be fun to watch. We can put KG and then Wilcox on Big Al. If Darko gets in foul trouble, we can use Collins on Kanter. Bass we can use on Milsap. This is sounding better and better. ;)
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Agreed re Pietrus Winsomme. If we are not going to use Darko or Collins I'd almost rather cut one of the two, force feed minutes to Melo and sign Pietrus back.
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Really wish Danny could figure out how to get Pietrus back...
I'd rather give our first round pick a shot. I mean, it's not like having Pietrus is going to make the difference between getting Banner 18 or not.
As for Darko, you've got to give Doc the benefit of the doubt because he sees more of Darko than we do. On the other hand, Doc has a bad habit of just deciding that he will not play a guy (like Nenad Krstic in the playoffs).
Mike
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Wilcox is one of my favorite Celtics , love his game and attitude.
He is very athletic for his size , but a touch fragile/unlucky. I 'm on pins and needles the whole time he is n the game thinking he is going down hurt. IMO , we lose Wilcox , we would be in almost as deep water as losing KG.
I would like to see Collins (built like a rock) and Darko the (bulldozer) be thrown in against the teams with bruizer /ruff inside players like we're gonna see tonight. Even Fab , is a big tuff man and decent inside defender . Doc needs to get these guys in the game to soften up the opposition or wear them down a bit.
Doc needs to work on getting Melo and Darko in the games
even for a few minutes. We are gonna need them sooner than latter I'm scard.