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Celtics Basketball => Celtics Talk => Topic started by: Pucaccia on November 09, 2012, 12:48:12 PM

Title: Yes or No? It's Doc's Fault
Post by: Pucaccia on November 09, 2012, 12:48:12 PM
I say yes, he has plenty of time to get them working cohesively. They look lost. I keep hearing it's a work in progress.
Title: Re: Yes or No? It's Doc's Fault
Post by: GreenNote on November 09, 2012, 12:53:29 PM
I'd say give them some time. Politics is usually not a part of this forum so why link the 2?
Title: Re: Yes or No? It's Doc's Fault
Post by: apc on November 09, 2012, 12:54:51 PM
I say yes, he has plenty of time to get them working cohesively. They look lost. I keep hearing it's a work in progress. It's starting to sound like the Obama administration.
In LA they already calling for Brown to be fired.
i'm not saying Dos should be fired, but he is should be held responsible.
Title: Re: Yes or No? It's Doc's Fault
Post by: 2short on November 09, 2012, 12:55:22 PM
we have 4 games played
or did i miss something ?
Title: Re: Yes or No? It's Doc's Fault
Post by: Who on November 09, 2012, 12:56:12 PM
Not wild about Doc's minute allocations so far but it should work itself out in time.

I don't think it's anything to get worked up about at this point in time. Doc is still feeling his way through the roster and trying to get an idea of where his best team is.
Title: Re: Yes or No? It's Doc's Fault
Post by: Chris on November 09, 2012, 12:59:38 PM
This team has made no secret of the fact that their goal is to be hitting the playoffs at full stride.  That is their mindset from the top to the bottom.  So, while Doc does hold some blame to the less than stellar start, I am not sure it is that much off their plan. 
Title: Re: Yes or No? It's Doc's Fault
Post by: Pucaccia on November 09, 2012, 01:04:00 PM
we have 4 games played
or did i miss something ?

Are you satisfied with those games?
Title: Re: Yes or No? It's Doc's Fault
Post by: Pucaccia on November 09, 2012, 01:04:35 PM
I'd say give them some time. Politics is usually not a part of this forum so why link the 2?
Your correct, I modified.
Title: Re: Yes or No? It's Doc's Fault
Post by: Boris Badenov on November 09, 2012, 01:04:52 PM
We have 4 guys who were on the roster last year, and 8 who were not.

Every single lineup we have on the floor right now consists of a set of players - in some cases, 3, 4 or even 5 - who have played a total of 4 NBA games together, and probably a total of 20-60 minutes together on an NBA court.

Or, put another way: at NO point this year have the Celtics fielded a lineup that was on the court for even one minute last year.
Title: Re: Yes or No? It's Doc's Fault
Post by: nickagneta on November 09, 2012, 01:09:12 PM
Fault for what? Having one more loss than we should have right now? Did anyone really think we would be any better than 3-1 right now? Our record is 2-2.

Is it Doc's fault we won a ring in 2008, was within a Game 6 Perk injury of winning another ring in 2010 and taking last year's champs to the brink in a 7 game ECf last year?

Because if those things are his fault too, then yeah, being 2-2 is his fault right now.
Title: Re: Yes or No? It's Doc's Fault
Post by: 2short on November 09, 2012, 01:21:55 PM
we have 4 games played
or did i miss something ?

Are you satisfied with those games?
its 4 games, i'm more than satisfied with our team, coach, gm and announcers
you can't panic or try to point fingers
ITS 4 GAMES
Title: Re: Yes or No? It's Doc's Fault
Post by: MBunge on November 09, 2012, 01:42:53 PM
Or, put another way: at NO point this year have the Celtics fielded a lineup that was on the court for even one minute last year.


Dallas is 4-1 with huge roster turnover and no Dirk.

It's silly to panic after 4 games, but I think there are a few things we can already say about this team.

1.  It ain't winning anything playing Sully and Bass major minutes at the 5.

2.  Paul Pierce cannot be relied upon to carry the team like he did in the past.

3.  Boston must play at a faster pace than in the past, particularly when you've got Rondo on the court with our younger, faster bench.

Mike
Title: Re: Yes or No? It's Doc's Fault
Post by: Yogi on November 09, 2012, 01:50:38 PM
   Fault implies there is something that requires blame.  We lost two basketball games.  That's normal.  Miami lost, San Antonio lost, Oklahoma lost why are we any different?  There is no "fault" we lost to teams that played better than us. 
   What you actually mean is why does the teams play not match the expectations you had of them before they actually played?  That is easy, your expectations were unrealistic.  This Celtics team is a great team.  They will be a great team when it matters.  But for anyone to expect this team to be a great team from game 1 to game 82 is unrealistic. 
   Sullinger will improve by leaps and bounds (not literally) as he gets used to the NBA pace and personnel.  Jeff Green will get better the further he gets from missing a season due to heart surgery to actually playing and competing for a championship.  Terry will become better once he understands his role in the Boston offense.   The team will get better as Terry, Lee and others get used to Rondo (and KG).  Doc will get better as he learns more about what works and what his players are capable of against NBA teams. 
   At the end of the day, we're going to win a lot of games and compete for a championship.  Rondo is better than last year.  Bass is better than last year.  KG and Paul continue to look great.  Avery Bradley is another year older, extremely confident, hungry and hopefully healthy.  The talent in our bench is incredible.  If Kobe, Nash, Peace, Gasol and Howard struggle learning a new system playing 40 min a game, why wouldn't our bench which has 5 new players playing only 20 min?
Title: Re: Yes or No? It's Doc's Fault
Post by: Yogi on November 09, 2012, 01:56:25 PM
Or, put another way: at NO point this year have the Celtics fielded a lineup that was on the court for even one minute last year.


Dallas is 4-1 with huge roster turnover and no Dirk.

It's silly to panic after 4 games, but I think there are a few things we can already say about this team.

1.  It ain't winning anything playing Sully and Bass major minutes at the 5.

2.  Paul Pierce cannot be relied upon to carry the team like he did in the past.

3.  Boston must play at a faster pace than in the past, particularly when you've got Rondo on the court with our younger, faster bench.

Mike
Dallas is starting from scratch.  Marion was the only starter that was even on the team last year.  They have talented veterans who are playing their game.  The Celtics have a ton of new pieces to fit onto a very complex system on both ends of the floor.  We are not going to change our system based around Rondo, Paul and KG.  Dallas will actually struggle more when Dirk comes back because the others will have to adjust to playing with Dirk.  Right now they have no stars that demand adjustment from other people. 
Title: Re: Yes or No? It's Doc's Fault
Post by: Mr October on November 09, 2012, 02:17:56 PM
we have 4 games played
or did i miss something ?

Are you satisfied with those games?
its 4 games, i'm more than satisfied with our team, coach, gm and announcers
you can't panic or try to point fingers
ITS 4 GAMES

TP. Yup, its 4 games. the team is 2-2. No need to panic and point fingers. Doc is one of the absolute top coaches in the NBA.

I expected the team to struggle out the gate. They have a ton of new players in the rotation. They are also thin in the front court. there is a big talent drop off after KG in the front court. That will probably be their undoing in the end. But what can you do? Blake Griffen, Chris Bosh and Lamarcus Aldridge aren't exactly available.

After 10 games this team will probably be 5-5.

When Bradley gets back things will really get rolling. The chemistry will be better. And there will be a pit bull of a defender in the back court. His energy last year (combined with KG) really ignited an awesome defensive streak.
Title: Re: Yes or No? It's Doc's Fault
Post by: Mr October on November 09, 2012, 02:18:40 PM
Or, put another way: at NO point this year have the Celtics fielded a lineup that was on the court for even one minute last year.


Dallas is 4-1 with huge roster turnover and no Dirk.

It's silly to panic after 4 games, but I think there are a few things we can already say about this team.

1.  It ain't winning anything playing Sully and Bass major minutes at the 5.

2.  Paul Pierce cannot be relied upon to carry the team like he did in the past.

3.  Boston must play at a faster pace than in the past, particularly when you've got Rondo on the court with our younger, faster bench.

Mike
Dallas is starting from scratch.  Marion was the only starter that was even on the team last year.  They have talented veterans who are playing their game.  The Celtics have a ton of new pieces to fit onto a very complex system on both ends of the floor.  We are not going to change our system based around Rondo, Paul and KG.  Dallas will actually struggle more when Dirk comes back because the others will have to adjust to playing with Dirk.  Right now they have no stars that demand adjustment from other people.

As Bill Simmons would say, Dallas is experiencing the Ewing theory with Dirk out.
Title: Re: Yes or No? It's Doc's Fault
Post by: SHAQATTACK on November 09, 2012, 02:41:22 PM
If the team still looks out of sorts , no clear direction 25 games into the season , then you gotta ask questions about the coaching staff.

Right now I still think Doc is experimenting , which is hard on fans watching the team throw away possible victories screwing with lineups ( SULLY /BASS) sorry .folks just an't gonna cut it.

Maybe Doc is just being stuborn trying to PROVE all of us armchair coachs wrong.... ;D

The starting line up needs to STAY BIG ... the second string is where the smaller lineups with WIlcox should be run . IMO  ;)
Title: Re: Yes or No? It's Doc's Fault
Post by: csfansince60s on November 09, 2012, 02:45:16 PM
As any coach (and human being for that matter), Doc has his strength and weaknesses.

Strengths:

1.Player's Coach who is well respected, adept at handling differing personalities and who players want to play for>>>>good motivator and attracts players to wanna play here for him.

2. Decent at Xs and Os and especially out of time-outs.


3. Seems to work well with management (Danny/Wyc).

I'm sure that there are others that you could add to this list.

Weaknesses:

1. Not particularly good at handling the much larger number of permutations/combinations that being 10-12 deep as opposed to being 7 or 8 deep necessitates.

2. Doesn't seem particularly adept at adjusting to adjustments that other teams make during in-game situations.

3. Seeming inflexibility when it comes to "Small-Ball"


I'm sure that there are others that I missed.

Title: Re: Yes or No? It's Doc's Fault
Post by: scaryjerry on November 09, 2012, 02:48:31 PM
Not entirely but I think doc is overrated as a coach even if I love the guy id still rather have thibs
Title: Re: Yes or No? It's Doc's Fault
Post by: scaryjerry on November 09, 2012, 02:52:04 PM
This team has made no secret of the fact that their goal is to be hitting the playoffs at full stride.  That is their mindset from the top to the bottom.  So, while Doc does hold some blame to the less than stellar start, I am not sure it is that much off their plan.

Eh..while that's the plan when have docs teams ever made the playoffs look easy...they have consistently gone 7 against teams that should be swept..game 6and7 last year against the heat were abysmally coached
Title: Re: Yes or No? It's Doc's Fault
Post by: MBunge on November 09, 2012, 03:27:23 PM
Or, put another way: at NO point this year have the Celtics fielded a lineup that was on the court for even one minute last year.


Dallas is 4-1 with huge roster turnover and no Dirk.

It's silly to panic after 4 games, but I think there are a few things we can already say about this team.

1.  It ain't winning anything playing Sully and Bass major minutes at the 5.

2.  Paul Pierce cannot be relied upon to carry the team like he did in the past.

3.  Boston must play at a faster pace than in the past, particularly when you've got Rondo on the court with our younger, faster bench.

Mike
Dallas is starting from scratch.  Marion was the only starter that was even on the team last year.  They have talented veterans who are playing their game.  The Celtics have a ton of new pieces to fit onto a very complex system on both ends of the floor.  We are not going to change our system based around Rondo, Paul and KG.  Dallas will actually struggle more when Dirk comes back because the others will have to adjust to playing with Dirk.  Right now they have no stars that demand adjustment from other people.

4 of our starting 5 are the same as last year, and that hasn't made much difference.  We're also seeing the exact same problems at the beginning of this year that we saw at the end of last year (everything going to crap when KG isn't on the floor).

Fundamentally, though, the idea that other players have to adjust to either KG or Paul may be the big problem.  Neither of those guys are great enough any more than every one else should have to adjust to them.

Mike
Title: Re: Yes or No? It's Doc's Fault
Post by: nickagneta on November 09, 2012, 03:30:47 PM
This team has made no secret of the fact that their goal is to be hitting the playoffs at full stride.  That is their mindset from the top to the bottom.  So, while Doc does hold some blame to the less than stellar start, I am not sure it is that much off their plan.

Eh..while that's the plan when have docs teams ever made the playoffs look easy...they have consistently gone 7 against teams that should be swept..game 6and7 last year against the heat were abysmally coached
Game 6 last year I blame on the players who didn't bother to show up. Game 7 I blame on no one as the better, more healthy team won. Team played great for 3 1/2 quarters and then the Heat pulled away. No fault in what they did that game anywhere.
Title: Re: Yes or No? It's Doc's Fault
Post by: fairweatherfan on November 09, 2012, 03:33:23 PM
If we need a new coach I hear Mike Brown's available  :P
Title: Re: Yes or No? It's Doc's Fault
Post by: ACF on November 09, 2012, 03:42:56 PM
we have 4 games played
or did i miss something ?

Yeah, only 78 games left. We're doomed.

 ;)
Title: Re: Yes or No? It's Doc's Fault
Post by: ACF on November 09, 2012, 03:44:20 PM
This team has made no secret of the fact that their goal is to be hitting the playoffs at full stride.  That is their mindset from the top to the bottom.  So, while Doc does hold some blame to the less than stellar start, I am not sure it is that much off their plan.

Eh..while that's the plan when have docs teams ever made the playoffs look easy...they have consistently gone 7 against teams that should be swept..game 6and7 last year against the heat were abysmally coached
Game 6 last year I blame on the players who didn't bother to show up. Game 7 I blame on no one as the better, more healthy team won. Team played great for 3 1/2 quarters and then the Heat pulled away. No fault in what they did that game anywhere.

Just like '10. Gassed.
Title: Re: Yes or No? It's Doc's Fault
Post by: Yogi on November 09, 2012, 03:56:09 PM
Or, put another way: at NO point this year have the Celtics fielded a lineup that was on the court for even one minute last year.


Dallas is 4-1 with huge roster turnover and no Dirk.

It's silly to panic after 4 games, but I think there are a few things we can already say about this team.

1.  It ain't winning anything playing Sully and Bass major minutes at the 5.

2.  Paul Pierce cannot be relied upon to carry the team like he did in the past.

3.  Boston must play at a faster pace than in the past, particularly when you've got Rondo on the court with our younger, faster bench.

Mike
Dallas is starting from scratch.  Marion was the only starter that was even on the team last year.  They have talented veterans who are playing their game.  The Celtics have a ton of new pieces to fit onto a very complex system on both ends of the floor.  We are not going to change our system based around Rondo, Paul and KG.  Dallas will actually struggle more when Dirk comes back because the others will have to adjust to playing with Dirk.  Right now they have no stars that demand adjustment from other people.

4 of our starting 5 are the same as last year, and that hasn't made much difference.  We're also seeing the exact same problems at the beginning of this year that we saw at the end of last year (everything going to crap when KG isn't on the floor).

Fundamentally, though, the idea that other players have to adjust to either KG or Paul may be the big problem.  Neither of those guys are great enough any more than every one else should have to adjust to them.

Mike
   You do realize our entire bench didn't play with us last year?  Of course we'll struggle when KG is not on the floor.  You think Terry can come from Dallas, Sullinger from Ohio State, Jeff Green from Heart surgery, Courtney Lee from Houston, Barbosa from Toronto/Indiana and they can play defense like Rondo, Paul, Bass and KG?  Give them some time. 
   Paul and KG may not be in their prime, but they are great at what they do.  They are incredible defenders, shooters and passers with high IQ and excellent physical shape.  It's difficult to play with that level of IQ and experience on the floor.  Bass and Bradley struggled last year.  Jeff Green struggled the year before.  However, in time Bradley and Bass became very good.  Same will be true for Terry, Lee, Green and Sullinger. 
Title: Re: Yes or No? It's Doc's Fault
Post by: scaryjerry on November 09, 2012, 04:02:30 PM
This team has made no secret of the fact that their goal is to be hitting the playoffs at full stride.  That is their mindset from the top to the bottom.  So, while Doc does hold some blame to the less than stellar start, I am not sure it is that much off their plan.

Eh..while that's the plan when have docs teams ever made the playoffs look easy...they have consistently gone 7 against teams that should be swept..game 6and7 last year against the heat were abysmally coached
Game 6 last year I blame on the players who didn't bother to show up. Game 7 I blame on no one as the better, more healthy team won. Team played great for 3 1/2 quarters and then the Heat pulled away. No fault in what they did that game anywhere.

Hey I agree its on the players too but doc gets credit for motivating and clearly didn't well enough or have his players prepared to play like they were at home with 1 game from the finals. Game 7s defensively gameplan on lebron was plain stupid...and why'd we go 7 against the sixers so we weren't as gassed...partly because doc was outcoached by collins
Title: Re: Yes or No? It's Doc's Fault
Post by: dark_lord on November 09, 2012, 04:37:59 PM
no, not docs fault
Title: Re: Yes or No? It's Doc's Fault
Post by: mctyson on November 09, 2012, 05:53:52 PM
I say yes, he has plenty of time to get them working cohesively. They look lost. I keep hearing it's a work in progress.

we started last season 5 wins to 9 losses on a shortened schedule and we were 1 quarter away from ruining the Chosen One's NBA Finals destiny.  chill out.
Title: Re: Yes or No? It's Doc's Fault
Post by: Neurotic Guy on November 09, 2012, 06:02:34 PM
I see Doc as a flawed coach (who isn't?) whose strenths far outweigh his deficiencies.  It doesn't help to lay any blame 4 games into the season, but my opinion on the cause of the current play is that it's a new team learning to play together.
Title: Re: Yes or No? It's Doc's Fault
Post by: bfrombleacher on November 09, 2012, 06:17:32 PM
Half
Title: Re: Yes or No? It's Doc's Fault
Post by: GreenFaith1819 on November 09, 2012, 07:13:19 PM
Not Doc's fault.

C's just need time to gel with all of the new pieces.

Jeff had an article a few days ago on the blog main page about giving BOS 20 games - I can go with that.
Title: Re: Yes or No? It's Doc's Fault
Post by: BleedGreen1989 on November 09, 2012, 07:17:33 PM
Not Doc's fault.

C's just need time to gel with all of the new pieces.

Jeff had an article a few days on the blog main page about giving BOS 20 games - I can go with that.

Yea I think 20-25 is a fair expectation for them to have some cohesiveness. They won't be perfect but should be considerably better, but people love to overreact so everybody will continue to bring up wild trade ideas and point fingers
Title: Re: Yes or No? It's Doc's Fault
Post by: mgent on November 09, 2012, 07:35:25 PM
Cohesion is overrated.  Was cohesion a problem when KG had to learn a new position and Bass/Bradley were forced into the starting lineup?

I'm pretty sure our guys would've traded all that cohesion they built in the second half of the season in order to peak in playoffs instead of post all-star break when that lineup was first formed.
Title: Re: Yes or No? It's Doc's Fault
Post by: Celtics4ever on November 09, 2012, 07:42:38 PM
No, but he needs to quit tinkering.
Title: Re: Yes or No? It's Doc's Fault
Post by: Kiorrik on November 09, 2012, 08:01:14 PM
Wonder if they'd ever Mike Brown Doc Rivers.
Title: Re: Yes or No? It's Doc's Fault
Post by: SHAQATTACK on November 09, 2012, 09:04:48 PM
Maybe Doc is trying to get fired so he can coach the Lakers  LoL.... ;D    ...just kidding ., but I'm shocked at the lack of preparation and rotations .
 :'(
Boo hoo ....help   LoL
Title: Re: Yes or No? It's Doc's Fault
Post by: slamtheking on November 09, 2012, 09:12:34 PM
It's not over til we say it's over

http://www.metacafe.com/watch/mv-RsJQ/blutos_big_speech (http://www.metacafe.com/watch/mv-RsJQ/blutos_big_speech/)
Title: Re: Yes or No? It's Doc's Fault
Post by: bfrombleacher on November 09, 2012, 10:02:16 PM
After tonight, yes.

Bass and Sully?

Rondo not playing with 4 of the numerous fast and/or athletic players we have?
Title: Re: Yes or No? It's Doc's Fault
Post by: vinnie on November 09, 2012, 10:11:58 PM
We have 4 guys who were on the roster last year, and 8 who were not.

Every single lineup we have on the floor right now consists of a set of players - in some cases, 3, 4 or even 5 - who have played a total of 4 NBA games together, and probably a total of 20-60 minutes together on an NBA court.

Or, put another way: at NO point this year have the Celtics fielded a lineup that was on the court for even one minute last year.

Dallas has 9 ne players and is missing its best player. They were 4-1 before last night.
Title: Re: Yes or No? It's Doc's Fault
Post by: Smokeeye123 on November 09, 2012, 10:14:36 PM
Sullinger should not be playing. Start Wilcox please.
Title: Re: Yes or No? It's Doc's Fault
Post by: Lightskinsmurf on November 09, 2012, 10:15:11 PM
If you're gonna give doc credit when we win then he better get the blame when we lose. Its only 5 games in and im already sick and tired of defending this team. I was fine going 0-2 but tonight p---ed me off. I'm not ready to panic but im done defending this team until they show me something, period.
Title: Re: Yes or No? It's Doc's Fault
Post by: Accension13 on November 09, 2012, 10:31:59 PM
Doc has become to dependent on small ball.  When KG is subbed out in the beginning of the game, any momentum the team may have gets stopped by paring Sully and Bass. That combo does not work now and I don't believe it ever will. The C's need to keep size on the floor at all times to protect the rim. Either continue to bring Wilcox in or let Darko get minutes subbing for KG. however; the bass/sully combo should not continue to get playing time together.
Title: Re: Yes or No? It's Doc's Fault
Post by: pearljammer10 on November 09, 2012, 11:08:56 PM
Mostly docs fault. Sketchy rotations. Terrible offensive sets. Not playing any big guys. No inside presence.
Title: Re: Yes or No? It's Doc's Fault
Post by: manl_lui on November 09, 2012, 11:23:44 PM
have more patience guys. Doc is doing a great job with all these new players. I'm fine with the loss today. And you know why?

Our bench scored 33 points tonight. The way I take it is, that our offense looks like is coming together slowly and its coming along just nicely. Jason Terry looks like he's finally in the groove. Of course Green still needs more improvement.

Also, our defense just needs to come along. Which is fine. They are still a work in progress. You can fix two holes at once. Our defense will come along.

I trust doc, and he's doing a great job. Baby steps man. I think our offense looks good so far, now time to work on our defense.

We can do this!
Title: Re: Yes or No? It's Doc's Fault
Post by: droopdog7 on November 09, 2012, 11:27:44 PM
Doc looks to be tinkering for sure but I am okay with it.  Ultimately though, I think what we're learning is that we can't be playing too many guys.  Doc needs to find his best players and stick wih it.   And I agree that he needs to keep some size in the game.  Finally, sully needs to sit.  He simply can't play defense. 
Title: Re: Yes or No? It's Doc's Fault
Post by: vinnie on November 09, 2012, 11:44:34 PM
have more patience guys. Doc is doing a great job with all these new players. I'm fine with the loss today. And you know why?

Our bench scored 33 points tonight. The way I take it is, that our offense looks like is coming together slowly and its coming along just nicely. Jason Terry looks like he's finally in the groove. Of course Green still needs more improvement.

Also, our defense just needs to come along. Which is fine. They are still a work in progress. You can fix two holes at once. Our defense will come along.

I trust doc, and he's doing a great job. Baby steps man. I think our offense looks good so far, now time to work on our defense.

We can do this!

So far this season, the only guy I believe is doing close to a great job is KG. After that, Rondo has played fairly well. No one else has been in the same zip code as great, including the head coach.
Title: Re: Yes or No? It's Doc's Fault
Post by: mustang on November 10, 2012, 12:37:30 AM
Danny's given Doc some players to overhaul his system, but Doc isn't buying it.  Sullinger will get you 1-2 more possessions a game as an offensive rebounder, but Doc's system has everybody sprinting back to get set up on defense, so what's the point (loved watching the other guys turn around and stand at half court after Sullinger snatched a missed shot from three Sixers during the second half and got hung out to dry).  Darko gives you some options as a passer in the high post - he's riding the bench.  Green, Lee, Barbosa can run like the wind and force Rondo (who's nowhere near his ceiling even still) to fall out of love with rock-pounding - they're spare parts out there, glorified fourth options most of the time.

Sit Rondo a few more minutes a game. Put Pierce on the KG 5-5-5 plan.  See what you've got with these new guys in November and December.  But that won't happen - talent's gotta fit the system with Doc, not the other way around.
Title: Re: Yes or No? It's Doc's Fault
Post by: Eja117 on November 10, 2012, 02:26:45 AM
Yes and Mike Brown was also to blame in LA
Title: Re: Yes or No? It's Doc's Fault
Post by: j804 on November 10, 2012, 02:36:46 AM
Doc has become to dependent on small ball.  When KG is subbed out in the beginning of the game, any momentum the team may have gets stopped by paring Sully and Bass. That combo does not work now and I don't believe it ever will. The C's need to keep size on the floor at all times to protect the rim. Either continue to bring Wilcox in or let Darko get minutes subbing for KG. however; the bass/sully combo should not continue to get playing time together.
I agree its no wonder we had a great stretch run last year when we went big...that was with even *gulp* Hollins and Steimsma. Doc deserves some blame for this BS small ball he's fascinated with its clearly not working.
Title: Re: Yes or No? It's Doc's Fault
Post by: crimson_stallion on November 10, 2012, 02:44:36 AM
I believe that some of it is Doc's fault, but not all of it.

I don't know what the scenario is with Milicic, but I'm hoping the reason for Doc not playing him is because of the wrist injury - if so you can't argue with that.

Melo clearly isn't NBA ready on offense (we saw that in the preseason) so Doc would naturally be hessitant to play him.

Collins is a veteran big who knows the game, but he's not much of a rebounder and he's pretty much a liability on offense. 

Doc probably feels more comfortable with two solid undersized guys than he does with Melo or Collins out there.

Wilcox has also not been in shape, so that's held Doc back from heavilly featuring him in the first few games.  He gives us size, rebounding and aggressiveness on offense, plus he's quick enough to switch onto smaller players and cut off penetration.  He's getting more minutes now (12 today) so I expect Doc will probably feature him a lot at least until Darko returns - maybe even after.

All of this is assuming that Doc does plan on playing Darko when/if he gets healthy...I'l be pretty frustrated if he doesn't, because Darko did a great job of keeping the team grounded defensively when KG went out in the preseason.
Title: Re: Yes or No? It's Doc's Fault
Post by: celtics2 on November 10, 2012, 03:15:23 AM
In LA they don't put up with this BS. 1-4 Brown is gone. Coaches are so expendable. By the time we recognize failure it's years gone by.
Title: Re: Yes or No? It's Doc's Fault
Post by: celtics2 on November 10, 2012, 03:18:01 AM
I'd say give them some time. Politics is usually not a part of this forum so why link the 2?

A favorite term thrown around here lately *Yawn*
Title: Re: Yes or No? It's Doc's Fault
Post by: jdz101 on November 10, 2012, 03:19:52 AM
I think the fact that the guards are giving up 48 points and 18 assists to Philly's back court is a big reason why they should take a fair amount of the blame.
Title: Re: Yes or No? It's Doc's Fault
Post by: celtics2 on November 10, 2012, 03:25:33 AM
Not wild about Doc's minute allocations so far but it should work itself out in time.

I don't think it's anything to get worked up about at this point in time. Doc is still feeling his way through the roster and trying to get an idea of where his best team is.

We love our losers. Doc is out of motivational words. The Emperor has no clothes. Can't play the hand he's dealt. There is talent on this Team.
Title: Re: Yes or No? It's Doc's Fault
Post by: celtics2 on November 10, 2012, 03:32:15 AM
Fault for what? Having one more loss than we should have right now? Did anyone really think we would be any better than 3-1 right now? Our record is 2-2.

Is it Doc's fault we won a ring in 2008, was within a Game 6 Perk injury of winning another ring in 2010 and taking last year's champs to the brink in a 7 game ECf last year?

Because if those things are his fault too, then yeah, being 2-2 is his fault right now.

Hey 500 that's Doc's pre Big 3 record.
And with the Big 3 The Defensive Coach Dude was the Star. History repeats. The chickens are coming home to roost.
Title: Re: Yes or No? It's Doc's Fault
Post by: Edgar on November 10, 2012, 03:38:09 AM
YES

buts that my humble oppinion
Title: Re: Yes or No? It's Doc's Fault
Post by: chambers on November 10, 2012, 03:49:43 AM
5 games in...It's like groundhog day at the start of every season.
We have plenty of new players but we also have some OLD men on our team.

KG and Pierce are still not at 100%
Jeff Green is still working his way around the court after major surgery and not being able to even walk 9 months ago.
We have a very long season ahead of us and a very deep bench that needs to learn and master a difficult defensive system.

Sit back, relax and enjoy the ride. No one is to blame.
We aren't the Lakers here. You give people more than 5 games, particularly if they won you a championship and got you darn close on multiple occasions.
Title: Re: Yes or No? It's Doc's Fault
Post by: Lightskinsmurf on November 10, 2012, 03:52:29 AM
have more patience guys. Doc is doing a great job with all these new players. I'm fine with the loss today. And you know why?

Our bench scored 33 points tonight. The way I take it is, that our offense looks like is coming together slowly and its coming along just nicely. Jason Terry looks like he's finally in the groove. Of course Green still needs more improvement.

Also, our defense just needs to come along. Which is fine. They are still a work in progress. You can fix two holes at once. Our defense will come along.

I trust doc, and he's doing a great job. Baby steps man. I think our offense looks good so far, now time to work on our defense.

We can do this!

I hate when people say things that simply aren't true just for the sake of defending doc rivers. I don't think doc has done a good job at all this season so far. Hes over playing rondo already and he isn't winning *so far* with a team that's more than capable of competing for a championship this year if coached correctly. We need shot blockers when KG is not in the game. I mean, what idiot can't see that. Play collins or Darko. How much longer are you gonna play bass and sullinger together before you see its not working.
Title: Re: Yes or No? It's Doc's Fault
Post by: Lightskinsmurf on November 10, 2012, 03:53:20 AM
have more patience guys. Doc is doing a great job with all these new players. I'm fine with the loss today. And you know why?

Our bench scored 33 points tonight. The way I take it is, that our offense looks like is coming together slowly and its coming along just nicely. Jason Terry looks like he's finally in the groove. Of course Green still needs more improvement.

Also, our defense just needs to come along. Which is fine. They are still a work in progress. You can fix two holes at once. Our defense will come along.

I trust doc, and he's doing a great job. Baby steps man. I think our offense looks good so far, now time to work on our defense.

We can do this!

I hate when people say things that simply aren't true just for the sake of defending doc rivers. I don't think doc has done a good job at all this season so far. Hes over playing rondo already and he isn't winning *so far* with a team that's more than capable of competing for a championship this year if coached correctly. We need shot blockers when KG is not in the game. I mean, what idiot can't see that. Play collins or Darko. How much longer are you gonna play bass and sullinger together before you see its not working.
Title: Re: Yes or No? It's Doc's Fault
Post by: Edgar on November 10, 2012, 03:55:08 AM
5 games in...It's like groundhog day at the start of every season.
We have plenty of new players but we also have some OLD men on our team.

KG and Pierce are still not at 100%
Jeff Green is still working his way around the court after major surgery and not being able to even walk 9 months ago.
We have a very long season ahead of us and a very deep bench that needs to learn and master a difficult defensive system.

Sit back, relax and enjoy the ride. No one is to blame.
We aren't the Lakers here. You give people more than 5 games, particularly if they won you a championship and got you darn close on multiple occasions.

sadly PP KG and RAY gave you the championship not to mention PJBrown and rookie pg

its another enviroment league is tougher now
really tougher..
we will see
Title: Re: Yes or No? It's Doc's Fault
Post by: Lightskinsmurf on November 10, 2012, 04:01:52 AM
5 games in...It's like groundhog day at the start of every season.
We have plenty of new players but we also have some OLD men on our team.

KG and Pierce are still not at 100%
Jeff Green is still working his way around the court after major surgery and not being able to even walk 9 months ago.
We have a very long season ahead of us and a very deep bench that needs to learn and master a difficult defensive system.

Sit back, relax and enjoy the ride. No one is to blame.
We aren't the Lakers here. You give people more than 5 games, particularly if they won you a championship and got you darn close on multiple occasions.

The team that won us a championship is long gone. Still we have enough talent to compete at the highest level. Sooner or later you will have no choice but to blame doc if this keeps up much longer. If he plays bass and sullinger together one more time im gonna puke.
Title: Re: Yes or No? It's Doc's Fault
Post by: Donoghus on November 10, 2012, 08:46:01 AM
I think most of this is on the players but I'm also not overly concerned.

They need time to gel and some of these guys just plain need to step up and play better.
Title: Re: Yes or No? It's Doc's Fault
Post by: greg_kite on November 10, 2012, 09:23:10 AM
Is it Doc's fault that Terry, Green and Lee have under achieved so far?

Pierce and KG are actualy playing well, Bass is solid and Rondo has been good but just not at his best.  Those are the guys that were in the rotation last year so hopefully it's just a matter of familiarity.  Once the rest of the new guys understand their roles better hopefully things turn around.
Title: Re: Yes or No? It's Doc's Fault
Post by: scaryjerry on November 10, 2012, 09:26:32 AM
Is it Doc's fault that Terry, Green and Lee have under achieved so far?

Pierce and KG are actualy playing well, Bass is solid and Rondo has been good but just not at his best.  Those are the guys that were in the rotation last year so hopefully it's just a matter of familiarity.  Once the rest of the new guys understand their roles better hopefully things turn around.


Pierce has played well really?
Title: Re: Yes or No? It's Doc's Fault
Post by: scaryjerry on November 10, 2012, 09:30:42 AM
I say yes, he has plenty of time to get them working cohesively. They look lost. I keep hearing it's a work in progress.

we started last season 5 wins to 9 losses on a shortened schedule and we were 1 quarter away from ruining the Chosen One's NBA Finals destiny.  chill out.

And we werent prepared to play in game 6 and had a terrible gameplan in game 7, wouldve lost in the second round if derrick rose doesnt get injured and were lucky chris bosh missed more then half of the heat series... we almost got to the finals...really almost? who cares
Title: Re: Yes or No? It's Doc's Fault
Post by: xmuscularghandix on November 10, 2012, 09:39:04 AM
I say yes, he has plenty of time to get them working cohesively. They look lost. I keep hearing it's a work in progress.

In a way yes. It's Ye players fault that they can't figure stuff out and accept the coaching, but Dic has to notice when a player is continually making bad decisions and make he adjustment to somebody else. Bass has been hesitant on offense and trying to be a hero by picking up PGs on D... The guy has got to be talked to.

On the other hand Rondo and KG's post game talks have made it sound like they believe their teammates need to step up
Title: Re: Yes or No? It's Doc's Fault
Post by: gar on November 10, 2012, 10:16:19 AM
Message to Doc:
Enough with the small ball. Joseph is better than Lee at this point and Bass and Wilcox are better than Green. People should be screaming for more minutes from Wilcox!

Barbosa has looked really good and he has the quickness to stay with the younger teams. Jason Terry has looked old (and he is) and courtney lee and jeff green have not made their expected leaps in play. was this unrealistic, yes. will they get there, maybe.

Title: Re: Yes or No? It's Doc's Fault
Post by: crownsy on November 10, 2012, 10:19:21 AM
Message to Doc:
Enough with the small ball. Joseph is better than Lee at this point and Bass and Wilcox are better than Green. People should be screaming for more minutes from Wilcox!

Barbosa has looked really good and he has the quickness to stay with the younger teams. Jason Terry has looked old (and he is) and courtney lee and jeff green have not made their expected leaps in play. was this unrealistic, yes. will they get there, maybe.

I agree for the most part.

On green, I'd just like to see them play him extended minutes at the 3. He gets aggressive offensively and defensively going up against other 3's, his best stretchs, and he's had a few here and there, have come when against a SF.

I know they think he's a matchup problem for 4's due to his quickness, but he doesn't exploit it, he seems to be more of a power guy to me, which i like, but that's wasted when you tell him "go post up that 4."

also I think Terry has looked fine the last few games. If we had pulled it out last night everyone would be heaping praise on him for his 4th quarter.

Title: Re: Yes or No? It's Doc's Fault
Post by: SHAQATTACK on November 10, 2012, 10:33:33 AM
I'm putting the blame on JEFF GREEN.  He was supposed to be able to score  12-18 points a night and grab decent number of rebounds.

IF he could play HALF as good as people (including Danny ) though , we would have had one loss to the HEAT and thats it.

I'm to the point ..I MUCH rather see Wilcox , Joseph , or Darko in there than Green.

Green is giving us NOTHING , the CELTICS NEED somebody on the court who can produce.  ANd its not Green. >:(
Title: Re: Yes or No? It's Doc's Fault
Post by: kozlodoev on November 10, 2012, 10:36:40 AM
I'm putting the blame on JEFF GREEN.  He was supposed to be able to score  12-18 points a night and grab decent number of rebounds.
Maybe he would, but not by standing around in the corner.
Title: Re: Yes or No? It's Doc's Fault
Post by: SHAQATTACK on November 10, 2012, 10:47:30 AM
I'm putting the blame on JEFF GREEN.  He was supposed to be able to score  12-18 points a night and grab decent number of rebounds.
Maybe he would, but not by standing around in the corner.

He just looks lost out there to me.

 The Celtics are like a band all trying to play/learn their respective parts to may nice music .  Practice is painfully making some of them better.  I think JET and LEE and WILCOX and SULLY "GET IT"  and will help the the big three., down the road anyway.

Green on the otherhand is not on same sheet of music , he looks as lost on both sides of the ball. I cringe when I see him in there.  Well, I cringe too, when I see Bass come in when KG sits and SULLY should SIT as well.  BASS and WILCOX/DARKO need to enter the game at the same time.  This is not rocket science, we would do this good coaching playing CITY LEAGUE.

Maybe its me, but anytime Green does something good, it is almost by accident.
Title: Re: Yes or No? It's Doc's Fault
Post by: mgent on November 10, 2012, 10:51:48 AM

On green, I'd just like to see them play him extended minutes at the 3. He gets aggressive offensively and defensively going up against other 3's, his best stretchs, and he's had a few here and there, have come when against a SF.

That'd be ideal, but there's not even 15 minutes there.  I agree some of his talents (defense, overpowering players) are wasted at PF, but I don't think we payed him 10 million so we could cut BOTH his and Pierce's minutes.

I think a good idea would to be give Green a lot more minutes at SF in the first half, since Pierce has been absolutely miserable to start games and doesn't start hitting shots until the 2nd half anyway.  See if he can get into a rhythm, and if he plays well enough reward him with some PF minutes (Sullinger's) later on.  It's a win-win because it allows Pierce to play the majority of his minutes in the second half to help us close games.
Title: Re: Yes or No? It's Doc's Fault
Post by: crownsy on November 10, 2012, 10:52:14 AM
I'm putting the blame on JEFF GREEN.  He was supposed to be able to score  12-18 points a night and grab decent number of rebounds.
Maybe he would, but not by standing around in the corner.

He just looks lost out there to me.

 The Celtics are like a band all trying to play/learn their respective parts to may nice music .  Practice is painfully making some of them better.  I think JET and LEE and WILCOX and SULLY "GET IT"  and will help the the big three., down the road anyway.

Green on the otherhand is not on same sheet of music , he looks as lost on both sides of the ball. I cringe when I see him in there.  Well, I cringe too, when I see Bass come in when KG sits.  BASS and WILCOX/DARKO need to enter the game at the same time.  This is not rocket science, we would do this good coaching playing CITY LEAGUE.

Maybe its me, but anytime Green does something good, it is almost by accident.

As I've said, i think part of the problem is putting him at the 4. I know they rave about his quickness and that he can beat 4's up the floor, but to me he seems like a guy who wants to use his strength to penetrate, not some quick up post moves on a guy.

He also gets killed on defense the minute the other team goes "Fine, your quicker than our guy. we'll post you up to slow the game down."

When he has had those little stretches where he's looked good, it's been against 3's, who he can generally slash on and use his strength to get to the rim/line. He is also generally quick enough to stay with the SF on defense.

I dunno, it just seems when they play him at the 4, he doesn't want to post, so in the half court he ends up sitting in the corner waiting for an open 3 that never comes. When his matchup is a SF, he tends to iso him and try to get to the rim.
Title: Re: Yes or No? It's Doc's Fault
Post by: mr. dee on November 10, 2012, 10:56:32 AM
I agree with this. I think the reason Green is struggling have something to do with the position. He have advantage against most SF in the league but have disadvantage against most PF in the league. I don't think his "speed" is enough to play him consistently at 4. Please Doc, enough with the small ball unless it's effective.
Title: Re: Yes or No? It's Doc's Fault
Post by: SHAQATTACK on November 10, 2012, 11:08:29 AM
I'm putting the blame on JEFF GREEN.  He was supposed to be able to score  12-18 points a night and grab decent number of rebounds.
Maybe he would, but not by standing around in the corner.

He just looks lost out there to me.

 The Celtics are like a band all trying to play/learn their respective parts to may nice music .  Practice is painfully making some of them better.  I think JET and LEE and WILCOX and SULLY "GET IT"  and will help the the big three., down the road anyway.

Green on the otherhand is not on same sheet of music , he looks as lost on both sides of the ball. I cringe when I see him in there.  Well, I cringe too, when I see Bass come in when KG sits.  BASS and WILCOX/DARKO need to enter the game at the same time.  This is not rocket science, we would do this good coaching playing CITY LEAGUE.

Maybe its me, but anytime Green does something good, it is almost by accident.

As I've said, i think part of the problem is putting him at the 4. I know they rave about his quickness and that he can beat 4's up the floor, but to me he seems like a guy who wants to use his strength to penetrate, not some quick up post moves on a guy.

He also gets killed on defense the minute the other team goes "Fine, your quicker than our guy. we'll post you up to slow the game down."

When he has had those little stretches where he's looked good, it's been against 3's, who he can generally slash on and use his strength to get to the rim/line. He is also generally quick enough to stay with the SF on defense.

I dunno, it just seems when they play him at the 4, he doesn't want to post, so in the half court he ends up sitting in the corner waiting for an open 3 that never comes. When his matchup is a SF, he tends to iso him and try to get to the rim.

very well stated.

He never has a decisive advantage over anybody unless its an accident matchup or a scrub player.

Frankly I think Fab Melo and Joseph might contribute more.

Doc has got this whole ship headed in the WRONG direction.
Title: Re: Yes or No? It's Doc's Fault
Post by: Boris Badenov on November 10, 2012, 11:10:17 AM
I agree with this. I think the reason Green is struggling have something to do with the position. He have advantage against most SF in the league but have disadvantage against most PF in the league. I don't think his "speed" is enough to play him consistently at 4. Please Doc, enough with the small ball unless it's effective.

Some data to back this up:

You can see our plus/minus numbers here:

http://www.nba.com/statistics/plusminus/plusminus_sort.jsp?pcomb=5&season=22012&split=9&team=Celtics

Green's two best lineups by +/- so far are:

J. Terry   C. Wilcox   B. Bass   R. Rondo   J. Green
K. Garnett   P. Pierce   R. Rondo   J. Green   J. Sullinger

He is at SF in both.

His two worst are these:

K. Garnett   P. Pierce   J. Terry   L. Barbosa    J. Green
K. Garnett   P. Pierce   J. Terry   R. Rondo   J. Green

He is at PF in both.

These are small samples, but confirm everyone's impressions.

Also, he is last in +/- for the team at -32.
Title: Re: Yes or No? It's Doc's Fault
Post by: MBunge on November 10, 2012, 12:37:14 PM
This team has had a problem with effort for 3 years now and I wouldn't blame Doc for that.

Taking Bass out of the starting lineup and making him the team's back up center?  That's all on Doc.

Not playing Green much more at SF, even when Pierce is stinking the joint out?  That's on Doc.

The atrocious defensive rotations?  That's on somebody on the coaching staff because pretty much everybody on this team except the rookies has shown themselves capable of playing at least mediocre NBA defense.

The incredibly bad offensive chemistry?  Some of that's on Rondo, some on Pierce but some also has to go to Doc.  His obsession with small ball and refusal to look at other options, like playing either a big lineup or speeding up the tempo of the game, HAS NEVER WORKED with this team and certainly isn't going to now.

Mike
Title: Re: Yes or No? It's Doc's Fault
Post by: Edgar on November 10, 2012, 01:01:28 PM
I will say it one more time because I am pretty sure of this

Doc cant play lot of player rotations (hes better with limited lineups)
Doc Xs and Os are vastly overrated

And IF the players are underachieving its easy, sit them and play the others

The only game JET played well is the only game JET has had consitant minutes.

Title: Re: Yes or No? It's Doc's Fault
Post by: greg_kite on November 10, 2012, 07:41:59 PM
Is it Doc's fault that Terry, Green and Lee have under achieved so far?

Pierce and KG are actualy playing well, Bass is solid and Rondo has been good but just not at his best.  Those are the guys that were in the rotation last year so hopefully it's just a matter of familiarity.  Once the rest of the new guys understand their roles better hopefully things turn around.


Pierce has played well really?
I'd say 20 points, 6.4 rebs and 3.4 assists is good, especially for a 35 year old.
Title: Re: Yes or No? It's Doc's Fault
Post by: Celtics18 on November 10, 2012, 08:00:11 PM
I will say it one more time because I am pretty sure of this

Doc cant play lot of player rotations (hes better with limited lineups)
Doc Xs and Os are vastly overrated

And IF the players are underachieving its easy, sit them and play the others

The only game JET played well is the only game JET has had consitant minutes.

It seems like you are contradicting yourself here.  On the one hand you say "if players are underachieving, sit them" yet on the other, you say; "Jet only produced when he got consistent minutes."

You see the flaw?  If Doc had pulled Jet when he was underachieving, he would have never gotten the chance to produce.

This has always been my problem with being so quick to blame the coach.  He's basically in a lose-lose scenario among a lot of fans.  If the team performs well, it's because of the talent, and he has nothing to do with it.  However, when they are struggling, it's all his fault. 
Title: Re: Yes or No? It's Doc's Fault
Post by: Ogaju on November 10, 2012, 09:00:44 PM
why are yall saying we are 2-2 arent we 2-3, and do you agree with me now that Doc is a problem?
Title: Re: Yes or No? It's Doc's Fault
Post by: Edgar on November 10, 2012, 09:01:45 PM
why are yall saying we are 2-2 arent we 2-3, and do you agree with me now that Doc is a problem?

hes trying to fix it today
hopefully it will work
Title: Re: Yes or No? It's Doc's Fault
Post by: nickagneta on November 11, 2012, 11:45:12 AM
After 4 games of a lineup he thought would work, maybe three games as I think Bass started game one, he demoted Lee and Sully and installed Terry and Bass as starters.

You can not make decisions on rotations based on what happens in a game or two. Patterns must be seen both in games and practice to prove something is or isn't eventually going to work. Knee jerk reactions as an NBA coach will lose you the clubhouse, the desire of the players to play for you and your job.

Doc tried something and over a 10 day to two week period wasn't getting the desired result and changed it. That's the mark of a good coach and show's that the fault of what was happening falls squarely on the shoulders of underachieving players(Green, Lee, Sully, Barbosa)
Title: Re: Yes or No? It's Doc's Fault
Post by: Edgar on November 11, 2012, 11:49:43 AM
I will say it one more time because I am pretty sure of this

Doc cant play lot of player rotations (hes better with limited lineups)
Doc Xs and Os are vastly overrated

And IF the players are underachieving its easy, sit them and play the others

The only game JET played well is the only game JET has had consitant minutes.

It seems like you are contradicting yourself here.  On the one hand you say "if players are underachieving, sit them" yet on the other, you say; "Jet only produced when he got consistent minutes."

You see the flaw?  If Doc had pulled Jet when he was underachieving, he would have never gotten the chance to produce.

This has always been my problem with being so quick to blame the coach.  He's basically in a lose-lose scenario among a lot of fans.  If the team performs well, it's because of the talent, and he has nothing to do with it.  However, when they are struggling, it's all his fault.

Well with players underachieving i was talking about his perennial gotos, bass, pierce and KG, rondo and for underachieving i count when theyre tired or gassed too.

But over all Doc seems to change a little his direction yesterday, hope he keeps it that way
Title: Re: Yes or No? It's Doc's Fault
Post by: MBunge on November 11, 2012, 11:58:43 AM
That's the mark of a good coach and show's that the fault of what was happening falls squarely on the shoulders of underachieving players(Green, Lee, Sully, Barbosa)

It's a coach's job to put players in the right position to succeed.  Starting Sully and playing Bass as back-up center is about as far away from that as you can get.

And while I'd put more blame on the players for their defensive struggles, Barbosa, Lee and Green all appear to be suffering from the same [dang] thing that happens with the Celtic's overly complicated offense.  They get so wrapped up in fulfilling the rather limited roles that Doc assigns them that they can't just play the game.

Look at how Nate Robinson played before and after his time in Boston.  He was and is a substantially more productive offensive force than he was for the Celtics.

Mike
Title: Re: Yes or No? It's Doc's Fault
Post by: thirstyboots18 on November 11, 2012, 12:01:14 PM
The offensive and defensive sets have been changed, therefore even the vets are trying to incorporate a new system, and trying to find the right fit for new players at the same time.  It is the first five games of the season.  Doc is doing the right thing, finding strenghs and weakness now, rather than fumbling around later.  The team will be fine.   Doc is a master at getting players to buy into his system. 

It is not rocket science.  We have good to great competent players who will be able to adapt.

I believe it. 
Title: Re: Yes or No? It's Doc's Fault
Post by: Celtics18 on November 11, 2012, 12:20:43 PM
I will say it one more time because I am pretty sure of this

Doc cant play lot of player rotations (hes better with limited lineups)
Doc Xs and Os are vastly overrated

And IF the players are underachieving its easy, sit them and play the others

The only game JET played well is the only game JET has had consitant minutes.

It seems like you are contradicting yourself here.  On the one hand you say "if players are underachieving, sit them" yet on the other, you say; "Jet only produced when he got consistent minutes."

You see the flaw?  If Doc had pulled Jet when he was underachieving, he would have never gotten the chance to produce.

This has always been my problem with being so quick to blame the coach.  He's basically in a lose-lose scenario among a lot of fans.  If the team performs well, it's because of the talent, and he has nothing to do with it.  However, when they are struggling, it's all his fault.

Well with players underachieving i was talking about his perennial gotos, bass, pierce and KG, rondo and for underachieving i count when theyre tired or gassed too.

But over all Doc seems to change a little his direction yesterday, hope he keeps it that way

I agree that he seems to be changing his direction, but I also think that his players are helping him to change that direction. 

A huge example is Chris Wilcox;  having him start to be in condition to contribute really seems to change the outlook for this team.  Wilcox will never be mistaken for an all-star, but his role on this team is an extremely important one.  It means we don't have to go with two undersized power forwards on the front line together.

We can see that Doc is still trying to figure out what to do with Jeff Green.  This one is a conundrum as nobody seems to want to see Jeff get time at the four, but with Paul Pierce as our starting small forward, Doc is going to have to find creative ways to put Green in a position to be a key contributor.

Coaches have to take risks and make gambles.  When they pay off, he's a genius, when they don't he's a goat.  Mostly, throughout his career as the Cs head coach, Doc's gambits have paid off.  He's earned my trust.  So, I'm willing to give him time and benefit of doubt, even when I'm watching the game, and saying to the TV screen, "I wouldn't be playing that guy in this situation."
Title: Re: Yes or No? It's Doc's Fault
Post by: Pucaccia on November 11, 2012, 12:21:02 PM
When the Celts got the 2008 team together, they went on a run and dominated right out of the gate. Didn't you think this team would at least come out stronger. I don't buy the "it will take time" argument. Something is wrong.
Title: Re: Yes or No? It's Doc's Fault
Post by: thirstyboots18 on November 11, 2012, 12:29:38 PM
When the Celts got the 2008 team together, they went on a run and dominated right out of the gate. Didn't you think this team would at least come out stronger. I don't buy the "it will take time" argument. Something is wrong.
I don't think any vets will have the collective will and self confidence to do what KG, PP and RA pulled off in their first season.  However, that is Not to say that this team will not come together.  I think they will, and I do think it will be between now and 10 games in.  Wilcox and Green have a lot of emotional things to overcome, after their heart surgeries, also.  It is one thing to be told, and say, that you are 100% healthy.  It is quite another to prove it to yourself and dispell the fear.
Title: Re: Yes or No? It's Doc's Fault
Post by: Lightskinsmurf on November 11, 2012, 12:39:30 PM
Ill say it again, yes its docs fault. Is it ALL ON HIM, no. However to say he shouldn't get any of the blame is just ridiculous. Once you give a coach the talent he needs to win and he STILL doesn't get it done then yes, its his fault. Still tho we're 3-3. I think the next 10 games or so we will know what's really up with this team.
Title: Re: Yes or No? It's Doc's Fault
Post by: SHAQATTACK on November 11, 2012, 02:11:51 PM
I'm still unclear to why DARKO is sitting on the bench.  Has he said something to make Doc mad.   He is glued to the bench as bad as Fab Melo.

I don't see why Melo and Darko can't see a few minutes to see if they can TURN the tide of INSIDE BUCKETS run scored on the Celtics in bunchs when KG goes to the bench.

At least Doc is giving WIlcox some burn.  Still would like to see our BIG centers reject some inside drives by the 6 '3 " guards that are killing us on penetration whe KG is out.
Title: Re: Yes or No? It's Doc's Fault
Post by: Pucaccia on November 19, 2012, 04:40:24 PM
Shouldn't the C's better by now.  The 2008 team with less talent went crazy.  This team looks confused and over thinking.
Title: Re: Yes or No? It's Doc's Fault
Post by: Chris on November 19, 2012, 04:44:33 PM
Shouldn't the C's better by now.  The 2008 team with less talent went crazy.  This team looks confused and over thinking.

Eh, the 2008 team was built pretty differently.  They were top heavy, which made it a little easier to integrate...because as long as KG, Pierce, and Allen (and to a lesser degree Rondo and Perkins) fit in together, they could just roll with that.

This team relies much more on depth, because their top end talent is not nearly as strong as it was in 2008.  So, for them to be clicking on all cylinders, they don't need 3-5 guys clicking, they really need 8 or 9 guys going strong.  And that definitely takes more time, and is more difficult in general to pull off.
Title: Re: Yes or No? It's Doc's Fault
Post by: BballTim on November 19, 2012, 05:10:41 PM
Shouldn't the C's better by now.  The 2008 team with less talent went crazy.  This team looks confused and over thinking.

  The 2008 team was one of the better teams of all time.
Title: Re: Yes or No? It's Doc's Fault
Post by: vinnie on November 19, 2012, 05:20:57 PM
The best thing about the 2008 team is that it tried almost every game. Since then -- meh
Title: Re: Yes or No? It's Doc's Fault
Post by: ausbacker on November 19, 2012, 06:00:26 PM
At this stage of the season given the minutes and player combinations you have to think this is of Doc Rivers doing. I've been trying to work out what he's been doing with some of the combos and I continue to scratch my head.

It's great to see Bass still hasn't learnt that he doesn't need to take shots almost every time he gets the ball forward of mid court.
Title: Re: Yes or No? It's Doc's Fault
Post by: BudweiserCeltic on November 19, 2012, 07:55:36 PM
Our offense gets fixed as soon as we stop relying on Rondo handling the ball as much as he has been and if Pierce stops chucking the ball every time he touches it.

I really miss our ball movement. Rondo should be touching the ball constantly through our plays, but there's no reason to keep standing around doing practically nothing but dribble the ball at the top of the key.

Our offense is so predictable that it's sad. Our perimeter offense has completely disappeared because of this.

Doc has been awful early on in the season.
Title: Re: Yes or No? It's Doc's Fault
Post by: Meadowlark_Scal on November 19, 2012, 08:03:19 PM
Don't say doc got us a ring in 2008..say how could doc ONLY get one with a team like this....simple...he steps on guys who are productive...esp if they rebound....it is against his philosephey.......it was in the Herald as his direct quotes until he found it unpopular....but on the court, nothing hasd changed....Darko, sitting...why...usual, we have seen many a player sit for doc.....he makes no sense.....honestly, with the team we had, he easily should have pulled home 3 rings.....he is only good for a last second play......after YEARS of being chided by EVERYONE, he finally is playing pp and kg sparingly......still cannot grasp...no one shoots till someone is under the rim.......
Title: Re: Yes or No? It's Doc's Fault
Post by: Meadowlark_Scal on November 19, 2012, 08:05:32 PM
Yo saw how it is supposed to work when we played Utah....we were lucky we had more talent...Rondo, ect...but they did a lot with mostly milsap and jefferson...always rebounding.....made it look simple....as it should be......sullinger, kg, darko, bass..they are all made for that type of hoop....doc is so lost......
Title: Re: Yes or No? It's Doc's Fault
Post by: cman88 on November 19, 2012, 10:38:22 PM
I think if Doc wants to get Green involved he needs to start running plays for him...last night against the Pistons we saw Jeff score 6points in a row because doc called up plays specifically for him.

you aren't going to get someone going by having them stand in a corner to stretch the floor...thats something I would rather have Courtney Lee do.
Title: Re: Yes or No? It's Doc's Fault
Post by: Meadowlark_Scal on November 20, 2012, 08:33:15 AM
Do seems to only run plays for his fav players......you can turn almost anyone into a scorer...besides, not many look at the %...the attempts versus actual points...they just get a high off the points......as in allen iverson....he always scored 30 points....but took 50 shots.....result= no team....no one else ever gets the ball. They never ran plays for other centers, thing is, doc isn't a team concept guy.....if you are already there, and you take a role, and kg agrees, then it will happen, otherwise, doc will just look you down, go for someone else.....he is a very limited guy...narrow views. and no one can say "he got us a ring" it is more" how could he not with that team, and how only ONE...?"
Title: Re: Yes or No? It's Doc's Fault
Post by: BballTim on November 20, 2012, 08:52:41 AM
Our offense gets fixed as soon as we stop relying on Rondo handling the ball as much as he has been and if Pierce stops chucking the ball every time he touches it.

I really miss our ball movement. Rondo should be touching the ball constantly through our plays, but there's no reason to keep standing around doing practically nothing but dribble the ball at the top of the key.

Our offense is so predictable that it's sad. Our perimeter offense has completely disappeared because of this.

Doc has been awful early on in the season.

  Our offense isn't broken at all. We're 10th in offense overall, 4th in TS%. The only reason we're not a top 4-5 offense is our offensive rebounding.
Title: Re: Yes or No? It's Doc's Fault
Post by: wdleehi on November 20, 2012, 08:59:40 AM
I blame Doc for not adjusting the offense more...




But overall, no. 


This team is on cruise control right now and a good coach knows that his team of vets are playing the long season right.


This team has inside issue outside of KG.  There is only so much you can do with smoke and mirror.  This is a Ainge issue that is really hard to fix.  But from the sounds of the rumors, (Gortat rumor) it is an issue the Celtics understand and are trying to fix.
Title: Re: Yes or No? It's Doc's Fault
Post by: wdleehi on November 20, 2012, 09:03:00 AM
Shouldn't the C's better by now.  The 2008 team with less talent went crazy.  This team looks confused and over thinking.

  The 2008 team was one of the better teams of all time.


Agreed.


That team had more talent.  KG, Pierce and Ray were closer to their Prime.


Rondo, Perk, Posey, House, Powe, Cassell and PJ all filled their rolls perfectly. 
Title: Re: Yes or No? It's Doc's Fault
Post by: Meadowlark_Scal on November 20, 2012, 09:07:26 AM
Our offense gets fixed as soon as we stop relying on Rondo handling the ball as much as he has been and if Pierce stops chucking the ball every time he touches it.

I really miss our ball movement. Rondo should be touching the ball constantly through our plays, but there's no reason to keep standing around doing practically nothing but dribble the ball at the top of the key.

Our offense is so predictable that it's sad. Our perimeter offense has completely disappeared because of this.

Doc has been awful early on in the season.

  Our offense isn't broken at all. We're 10th in offense overall, 4th in TS%. The only reason we're not a top 4-5 offense is our offensive rebounding.

the pp part is true, he has had too many 4 for 17 games....terrible %  it could improve if bass, sully, kg would be cruising the paint looking for those rebounds instead of following docs orders of not rebounding.....dumbest philosophy in basketball history.