CelticsStrong
Celtics Basketball => Celtics Talk => Topic started by: vinnie on November 02, 2012, 11:49:13 PM
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At this rate the bigs will be looking for day work in a month or so. I realize it is still early, but I am already sick of small ball and even more sick of seeing Jeff Green at the 4. Discuss.
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At this rate the bigs will be looking for day work in a month or so. I realize it is still early, but I am already sick of small ball and even more sick of seeing Jeff Green at the 4. Discuss.
Jeff Green should on paper match up well with Ilyasova. Didn't see the game, but I imagine that had something to do with it.
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Celtics are definitely too small. maybe more so on the wing. we have too many undersized two guards.
first quick change I would make is to bring Pietrus back. Then I would look for a Steimsma type.
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I think the fact that every single player wanted to double the guard on pick and rolls had more to do with the D being terrible than Jeff being at the 4 to be honest. Every single guy in this league is going to finish a wide open layup or dunk under the rim, Larry Sanders or no.
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I might be crazy, but Jeff Green is a 3, not a 4.
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Meanwhile, Tom Thibodeau Rose-less Bulls are undefeated 2-0.
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I might be crazy, but Jeff Green is a 3, not a 4.
He's always been a 3.
I've been saying for a couple months now that this roster doesn't make any sense to me. Our best big is a 37 year old PF (granted, he carried us late last year)... after that it's Bass and Sully and they are both undersized bench bigs. Then we have 4 mediocre shooting guards splitting 52 minutes in the playoffs... and we're paying starting money for a SF to come off the bench (jeff green). I didn't see how the pieces fit... after two games I still don't see how the pieces fit.
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I might be crazy, but Jeff Green is a 3, not a 4.
He's always been a 3.
I've been saying for a couple months now that this roster doesn't make any sense to me. Our best big is a 37 year old PF (granted, he carried us late last year)... after that it's Bass and Sully and they are both undersized bench bigs. Then we have 4 mediocre shooting guards splitting 52 minutes in the playoffs... and we're paying starting money for a SF to come off the bench (jeff green). I didn't see how the pieces fit... after two games I still don't see how the pieces fit.
I agree with a lot of this. 1 true point, 4 sg's, 1 above average starting big, two (in theory) starting caliber 3's, 3 centers who are likely at best garbage time options, 2 4s who are dodgy starters at best.
There is talent, but Im not sure it equals 'Team'.
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I don't like those Jeff Green (PF) + Jared Sullinger (C) combinations.
Those have to end right now. Ideally, one would want Jeff Green (PF) alongside Garnett (C) as much as possible when Green as at the four position. As a secondary option, Darko or Collins. As a last ditch option, in extreme circumstances where matchups requires more speed, alongside Wilcox or Bass.
But never alongside Sullinger. He is a rookie who is a major defensive liability.
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How about not automatically assuming the team's problem is personnel and maybe its just cohesion and poor performance for once?
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I've been banging this drum all summer.
Danny seemed to forget size STILL matters!
If this is what we have for now, when KG comes out and Green replaces him, Darko (I can't believe I'm saying this) Milicic must replace Bass/Sully.
Our PF situation outside of KG bothers me immensely.
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I am fine with green playing the four but it cant happen if Sully or Bass is playing the five. We get absolutely destroyed when bass/sully are at the five. One major reason is because None of these three box out and we get eating alive on the boards more so than usual. Hopefully Wilcox will get his legs soon and will get minutes at center. In reality, we have to many guys that need to get minutes and not enough minutes to go around.
Anyway a Bass, Bradley, Melo and a pick deal could land us Gortat? Overpaying probably, but certainly fills a huge need while also freeing up playing time for others who need it.
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I think its time Doc rethinks KG at center. KG might very well be more needed at PF.
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I think its time Doc rethinks KG at center. KG might very well be more needed at PF.
And who starts at center?
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Whoever we trade for! =)
...or Darko/Wilcox. Whoever is in better shape.
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Bass isnt a great defender. Sully is a rookie and has bad NBA level defence (at this point in time) put them together and you have a situation where points are scored in the paint which is what happened tonight.
Didnt help that it was harder to buy a bucket then a winning lotto ticket tonight and also that jennings was dynamite (i dont care what you say those floaters were garbage) but the defence has to improve. The scoring will come, we have the personal to do so.
Early days in what is a long season give it a week or so and we will start seeing better games and better defence.
Also agree with anyone, small ball isnt working for us
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This is not a roster issue, but a coaching issue.
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This is not a roster issue, but a coaching issue.
It's a roster issue. It's been a roster issue since Shaq hobbled off the court in his final game. We don't have a center. It's a problem. KG proved capable of taking on that role last year. He turned it on in February, turned back the clock into an automatic 20/10 guy... and took us deep into the playoffs. We can't rely on him to do that all the time, though. He's gotta save it for the playoffs. So we're in the same situation during the early part of of last season... a deeply flawed roster.
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This is not a roster issue, but a coaching issue.
It's a roster issue. It's been a roster issue since Shaq hobbled off the court in his final game. We don't have a center. It's a problem. KG proved capable of taking on that role last year. He turned it on in February, turned back the clock into an automatic 20/10 guy... and took us deep into the playoffs. We can't rely on him to do that all the time, though. He's gotta save it for the playoffs. So we're in the same situation during the early part of of last season... a deeply flawed roster.
There's no reason why Doc can't play Wilcox and Darko together with KG, instead of going the Doc Extra Small Special.
I mean, Doc's first guy off the bench is Green for KG... so we have Bass and Green as our bigs on the floor, that's not going to turn out well.
When Green comes in, it should be to either sub for Bass, sub for Lee, or Sub for Pierce. We stay big, learn to exploit our advantages and we'll be good.
We don't have much size at the SG position to get away with going small with our bigs.
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This is not a roster issue, but a coaching issue.
It's a roster issue. It's been a roster issue since Shaq hobbled off the court in his final game. We don't have a center. It's a problem. KG proved capable of taking on that role last year. He turned it on in February, turned back the clock into an automatic 20/10 guy... and took us deep into the playoffs. We can't rely on him to do that all the time, though. He's gotta save it for the playoffs. So we're in the same situation during the early part of of last season... a deeply flawed roster.
There's no reason why Doc can't play Wilcox and Darko together with KG, instead of going the Doc Extra Small Special.
I mean, Doc's first guy off the bench is Green for KG... so we have Bass and Green as our bigs on the floor, that's not going to turn out well.
When Green comes in, it should be to either sub for Bass, sub for Lee, or Sub for Pierce. We stay big, learn to exploit our advantages and we'll be good.
We don't have much size at the SG position to get away with going small with our bigs.
Darko and WIlcox are both benchwarmers. We only have one starter-caliber big man and he's 37 years old. This roster is flawed.
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This is a problem though leaguewide, aside from LA whom I might add has a losing record teams with two good bigs are rare.
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As soon as Bass or Sullinger is placed at center, it is a layup fest for the other team. Yeah, we might score a few point too, but we give up as many or more usually.
I've been saying it for years, on here, that Doc loves small ball. At times, for a few minutes, here and there, it can be very effective. But it has become the staple of how the Celtics play.
Doc would argue, best 5 guys. I think in the NBA, especially at the 1 or the 5 spot, that arguement makes no sense unless you got Lebron on your team.
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yup ..this is why Lopezs ,Gasols , HIlbert , ASik , and all the rest of the non star but very good centers are making ALstar caliber money. Unless you have LBJ who plays like a 7 ' 6" guard. human freak your not gonna compete .
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It's not just the lack of size.
It's the lack of rotations and obviously the perimeter defense has been terrible.
Our guards can't get beat and gamble on steals once they get blown by (aka. Rondo).
Lee is suppose to be a solid defender and I just haven't seen it.
This team misses Bradley.
And we have a lot of new players so the defense is going to look pretty weak until we get more practice time together.
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I have no idea who the guy coaching this team is. It's not the defense preacher echoing Thibs a few years ago.
Sully's defense pretty much stinks. It seems clear they're committed to developing him by playing him, and we're going to pay for that for a while. I really don't think playing him at C next to Bass is the right move, though. Seems pretty dumb to me.
Darko seems like a better choice for some 5 minutes. Heck, Wilcox and even Collins, too.
I'm okay with going small at PF, but we need a legit pivot player that can patrol the paint.
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This is not a roster issue, but a coaching issue.
It's a roster issue. It's been a roster issue since Shaq hobbled off the court in his final game. We don't have a center. It's a problem. KG proved capable of taking on that role last year. He turned it on in February, turned back the clock into an automatic 20/10 guy... and took us deep into the playoffs. We can't rely on him to do that all the time, though. He's gotta save it for the playoffs. So we're in the same situation during the early part of of last season... a deeply flawed roster.
There's no reason why Doc can't play Wilcox and Darko together with KG, instead of going the Doc Extra Small Special.
I mean, Doc's first guy off the bench is Green for KG... so we have Bass and Green as our bigs on the floor, that's not going to turn out well.
When Green comes in, it should be to either sub for Bass, sub for Lee, or Sub for Pierce. We stay big, learn to exploit our advantages and we'll be good.
We don't have much size at the SG position to get away with going small with our bigs.
Darko and WIlcox are both benchwarmers. We only have one starter-caliber big man and he's 37 years old. This roster is flawed.
LOL.
Not that I dont agree with you somewhat but is there any year that you dont think the Celtics roster is deeply flawed?
Not having more than one starting caliber big man isnt a prerequisite for a championship anymore.
They just have to get back to last years defensive performance and there is no reason they cannot do that in my opinion.
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I still don't understand why Doc doesn't wanna use our bigs and continue to play small ball.
Darko, hate him or not, is a shot blocking prescence. There will be less easy layups if he's there. Wilcox is high energy and defensive minded too. Love Bass and Sully, but they can't be our Centers, unless you pull their feet and stretch them to make the both guys 6'11".
We should also keep Green at the 3. He's a matchup nightmare for other 3's and as soon as he gets his confidence back, he'll be hard to deal with. But he seems lost playing the 4, Doc should not put him as a PF, even if it means cutting a little bit of Paul's PT.
C'mon now Doc, Danny provided you with bigs, use them.
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Maybe it's just me, but I'm not seeing an inherently flawed roster, I'm seeing a team that is playing terrible team defense, specifically against the pick and role. This is shocking to me because that has been the C's bread and butter for 5 years now.
I will agree that the early Green for KG sub is hurting their weakside rotation. But IMO the bigger problem is they are getting killed up top on the pick and role, which is then exposing the lack of interior height rotating to cover the basket.
They've also been terrible in their general defensive awareness. When they do make the rotations, their spacing has been pretty poor and they are giving up too many passing lanes.
Bottom line, I think this is more a product of execution than it is roster. Sure I'd like to see the C's have an athletic big who can rebound, shot block and not be a black hole on the offensive side, but so would every other team in the NBA.
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Something will have to happen with this roster or choices with coaching the personnel:
1) Just play Fab Melo... Yeah, he'll make a lot of mistakes, BUT he's a weak-side defensive presence, and this team has NO ONE who can do this. The Celtics may have no choice but to play Fab because only he can alter shots as a back-side defender.
2) Never dreamed I'd say this, but I'd much rather have Ryan Hollins on this team than Darko. Darko simply does not fit the concepts this team implements. No, Hollins is not a great player, but he's ACTIVE on the defensive end, and this team really misses him.
I may have over-estimated this team... They just don't look that good to me right now. Defensively they're atrocious. Milwaukee DOMINATED that game last night, and they had a plan and stuck with it. The Celtics may have to outSCORE teams to win...
Ask Pops in San Antonio about how to adjust your coaching style with the personnel you have...
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Don't blame it all on small ball. Blame it on cohesion.
First, this team has routinely played with smaller lineups that included James Posey and Mikael Pietrus. If they could be successful with it then, it's certainly not small ball's fault they are losing now.
Second, it's not like Brandon Bass is much of a power forward. He's undersized and doesn't particularly rebound well. He also offers no shot blocking. So let's not pretend that when we go to Jeff Green at the 4, we're losing a lot of "big man" skills.
I think the biggest problem is defensive rotations and figuring out how to distribute shots.
The latter problem was always a problem in the Big Three era, but it was mostly limited to how to divvy things up amongst Paul, KG, and Ray. Now it's how do we divvy up shots amongst PP, KG, Rondo, Terry, Green, Lee, Barbosa, Bass, and Sully.
I don't think it's a matter of selfishness; in fact, it might be the opposite. It seems like everyone (minus Barbosa and Pierce in the Miami game) seemed to defer to much.
But this can be resolved.
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I might be crazy, but Jeff Green is a 3, not a 4.
He's always been a 3.
I've been saying for a couple months now that this roster doesn't make any sense to me. Our best big is a 37 year old PF (granted, he carried us late last year)... after that it's Bass and Sully and they are both undersized bench bigs. Then we have 4 mediocre shooting guards splitting 52 minutes in the playoffs... and we're paying starting money for a SF to come off the bench (jeff green). I didn't see how the pieces fit... after two games I still don't see how the pieces fit.
They don't fit but watch the Celts try to put the square peg in a round hole. Been going on for decades now. I think Doc actually has it down.
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Man, you guys are hilarious. Stop trying to find scapegoats for a couple of losses and enjoy how this team gets better and better. Every team loses. LA, Miami, OKC. Only San Antonio has the talent, coaching, chemistry AND continuity to win all the time and even they barely won their games. This team has to learn that nothing comes easy and there is no time like the present.
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Meanwhile, Tom Thibodeau Rose-less Bulls are undefeated 2-0.
Celts should have fired Rivers and kept Thib at the head. The Engineer of the Celtic Defense that went South when he left.
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Oh nooos, an 0-2 start! We're Doooooommmmedd!! DOOMED I Tells you!
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Overreact much? ;)
Meanwhile, Tom Thibodeau Rose-less Bulls are undefeated 2-0.
Celts should have fired Rivers and kept Thib at the head. The Engineer of the Celtic Defense that went South when he left.
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im so tired of people wanting a big hulking center. this isnt 2007 anymore. all contenders utilize a power forward playing center now.
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This is not a roster issue, but a coaching issue.
It's a roster issue. It's been a roster issue since Shaq hobbled off the court in his final game. We don't have a center. It's a problem. KG proved capable of taking on that role last year. He turned it on in February, turned back the clock into an automatic 20/10 guy... and took us deep into the playoffs. We can't rely on him to do that all the time, though. He's gotta save it for the playoffs. So we're in the same situation during the early part of of last season... a deeply flawed roster.
There's no reason why Doc can't play Wilcox and Darko together with KG, instead of going the Doc Extra Small Special.
I mean, Doc's first guy off the bench is Green for KG... so we have Bass and Green as our bigs on the floor, that's not going to turn out well.
When Green comes in, it should be to either sub for Bass, sub for Lee, or Sub for Pierce. We stay big, learn to exploit our advantages and we'll be good.
We don't have much size at the SG position to get away with going small with our bigs.
Darko and WIlcox are both benchwarmers. We only have one starter-caliber big man and he's 37 years old. This roster is flawed.
LOL.
Not that I dont agree with you somewhat but is there any year that you dont think the Celtics roster is deeply flawed?
Not having more than one starting caliber big man isnt a prerequisite for a championship anymore.
They just have to get back to last years defensive performance and there is no reason they cannot do that in my opinion.
Sure, when you have LBJ. Even Durant has two decent starting bigs.
How you gonna compete against that with just KG? Doesn't work.
I would consider starting either Darko or Wilcox, or at the very least playing one of them with Bass/Sully/Green. When these three play together I can literally feel my blood pressure rise.
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Meanwhile, Tom Thibodeau Rose-less Bulls are undefeated 2-0.
Celts should have fired Rivers and kept Thib at the head. The Engineer of the Celtic Defense that went South when he left.
That's simply not true. We have remained a top defensive team without coach Thibs over the last couple of years.
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Maybe it's just me, but I'm not seeing an inherently flawed roster, I'm seeing a team that is playing terrible team defense, specifically against the pick and role. This is shocking to me because that has been the C's bread and butter for 5 years now.
I will agree that the early Green for KG sub is hurting their weakside rotation. But IMO the bigger problem is they are getting killed up top on the pick and role, which is then exposing the lack of interior height rotating to cover the basket.
They've also been terrible in their general defensive awareness. When they do make the rotations, their spacing has been pretty poor and they are giving up too many passing lanes.
Bottom line, I think this is more a product of execution than it is roster. Sure I'd like to see the C's have an athletic big who can rebound, shot block and not be a black hole on the offensive side, but so would every other team in the NBA.
TP. Nothing to add to your analysis.
Let them play, they'll get it together. Doc and his crew are great coaches, and we have some of the best players in the league. 2 more weeks and you'll see a completely different team defense, celtic style.
Go Celtics!
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They are big, but are they headed for the lumber yard?