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Celtics Basketball => Celtics Talk => Topic started by: u2larkin04 on November 02, 2012, 09:51:23 PM

Title: Courtney Lee.. expendable?
Post by: u2larkin04 on November 02, 2012, 09:51:23 PM
With Terry and Barbosa seeming as more like scorers rather than playmakers does Courtney Lee seem expendable once Avery Bradley comes back and takes over at the 2-guard spot? I feel like we could really use a good backup playmaker/defender point guard rather than the surplus of 2's we have.

Do you think Avery could fill that hole when he gets back or should the C's explore the market eventually for someone who's more capable of backing up Rondo?
Title: Re: Courtney Lee.. expendable?
Post by: billysan on November 02, 2012, 09:55:55 PM
At this stage of their careers, Courtney Lee is the better offensive player than Avery Bradley. Bradley is likely the better defensive player but with a small sample size.

Keep in mind that one of the issues with Barbosa is that he is streaky and inconsistent according to some people, this is why he has always been a bench player despite his immense talent and athletic ability.
Title: Re: Courtney Lee.. expendable?
Post by: blink on November 02, 2012, 10:00:40 PM
I think it is too soon to know if Lee is going to help us in a major way or not.  I just hope that we have a good handle on his role by the time AB comes back. 

Tonight is a good example of a game where AB would have had a positive impact.  We weren't aggressive enough on D.  I think AB would have given us a spark tonight and that great def effort spreads to the other guys sometimes.  People see AB busting his butt 100% on every play on D and it make the rest of the guys work harder.

Lee is a good defender as well, but his D doesn't have the game impact that AB's does.
Title: Re: Courtney Lee.. expendable?
Post by: LarBrd33 on November 02, 2012, 10:10:44 PM
No.  He's our best guard out of the foursome of mediocrity. 
Title: Re: Courtney Lee.. expendable?
Post by: Eddie20 on November 02, 2012, 10:36:20 PM
No.  He's our best guard out of the foursome of mediocrity.

I'm certain there are plenty of teams that would love to have our "mediocrity".
Title: Re: Courtney Lee.. expendable?
Post by: hardlyyardley on November 02, 2012, 10:41:07 PM
Lee is a major asset....as a rookie he shut down Ray Allen in the playoffs....can guard both 2's and 3's
Title: Re: Courtney Lee.. expendable?
Post by: blink on November 02, 2012, 11:02:34 PM
So is RR one of the mediocre 4?  haha I don't think so.

No.  He's our best guard out of the foursome of mediocrity.
Title: Re: Courtney Lee.. expendable?
Post by: SHAQATTACK on November 02, 2012, 11:04:17 PM
Right now Lee is the LAST guard the C's can afford to lose.

It may take AB  1/2 season to return to his prior form.

Love Lees defense intensity and nice jumper.

The WHOLE team is gettting KILLED on pick  n roll and defense in the paint.
Title: Re: Courtney Lee.. expendable?
Post by: blink on November 02, 2012, 11:06:55 PM
Well until we can consistently stop the pick and roll, we are going to get a big dose of it from everyone we play.  I guess that will give us a chance to get better at it...lol.

I hope wilcox can slowly ramp up his minutes.  He seemed to give us a spark on the D end at times.  He is athletic enough to at least get to where he is supposed to be with the d rotations.  I am not sure sully is quick enough yet to do that...
Title: Re: Courtney Lee.. expendable?
Post by: SCeltic34 on November 02, 2012, 11:17:36 PM
Lee has played 2 games in a Celtics uniform and you're already suggesting he's expendable?  Nobody is more p---ed off than me at our performance tonight, but let's not overreact.
Title: Re: Courtney Lee.. expendable?
Post by: crimson_stallion on November 02, 2012, 11:46:19 PM
At this stage of their careers, Courtney Lee is the better offensive player than Avery Bradley. Bradley is likely the better defensive player but with a small sample size.

Keep in mind that one of the issues with Barbosa is that he is streaky and inconsistent according to some people, this is why he has always been a bench player despite his immense talent and athletic ability.

LIKELY the better defensive player?  That's like saying Rondo is likely a better playmaker than Jason Terry.  There is no comparison.
Title: Re: Courtney Lee.. expendable?
Post by: OsirusCeltics on November 03, 2012, 12:07:08 AM
No need for overreaction on how horrible Lee has been playing. That's why the Celtics almost never play up to their potential during the regular season, the game is played much faster
When the game slows down, you'll see the Celtics thrive
Title: Re: Courtney Lee.. expendable?
Post by: LarBrd33 on November 03, 2012, 12:14:24 AM
At this stage of their careers, Courtney Lee is the better offensive player than Avery Bradley. Bradley is likely the better defensive player but with a small sample size.

Keep in mind that one of the issues with Barbosa is that he is streaky and inconsistent according to some people, this is why he has always been a bench player despite his immense talent and athletic ability.

LIKELY the better defensive player?  That's like saying Rondo is likely a better playmaker than Jason Terry.  There is no comparison.
I think Bradley and Lee are about even on the defensive end, but that's just me.
Title: Re: Courtney Lee.. expendable?
Post by: indeedproceed on November 03, 2012, 12:18:37 AM
At this stage of their careers, Courtney Lee is the better offensive player than Avery Bradley. Bradley is likely the better defensive player but with a small sample size.

Keep in mind that one of the issues with Barbosa is that he is streaky and inconsistent according to some people, this is why he has always been a bench player despite his immense talent and athletic ability.

LIKELY the better defensive player?  That's like saying Rondo is likely a better playmaker than Jason Terry.  There is no comparison.
I think Bradley and Lee are about even on the defensive end, but that's just me.

Bradley healthy brings another element Lee does not. Motor, athleticism, they looked like they outweighed any skill advantage Lee had defensively. The biggest worry is the small sample size.
Title: Re: Courtney Lee.. expendable?
Post by: pearljammer10 on November 03, 2012, 01:49:17 AM
Right now Lee is the LAST guard the C's can afford to lose.

It may take AB  1/2 season to return to his prior form.

Love Lees defense intensity and nice jumper.

The WHOLE team is gettting KILLED on pick  n roll and defense in the paint.

Yeah this. It seemed the bucks were wide open for a drive in the middle every single play.
Title: Re: Courtney Lee.. expendable?
Post by: billysan on November 03, 2012, 07:52:53 AM
At this stage of their careers, Courtney Lee is the better offensive player than Avery Bradley. Bradley is likely the better defensive player but with a small sample size.

Keep in mind that one of the issues with Barbosa is that he is streaky and inconsistent according to some people, this is why he has always been a bench player despite his immense talent and athletic ability.

LIKELY the better defensive player?  That's like saying Rondo is likely a better playmaker than Jason Terry.  There is no comparison.
I think Bradley and Lee are about even on the defensive end, but that's just me.

Bradley healthy brings another element Lee does not. Motor, athleticism, they looked like they outweighed any skill advantage Lee had defensively. The biggest worry is the small sample size.

This was the point, he was excellent against PG and smaller SG for a 'small sample size'. We need to get him back healthy before we declare him as the better player. What he used to do has no value if he cant reproduce it post injury.

He may be just fine when he gets back or he may have limited motion in his upper body by comparison. Courtney Lee certainly doesnt have his footspeed but he has a greater reach than Bradley. Both have good hands and instincts from what we have seen. Just different players.

I actually look forward to seeing them on the court together as complimentary players.
Title: Re: Courtney Lee.. expendable?
Post by: chambers on November 03, 2012, 08:03:35 AM
Danny will probably keep Lee over Bradley because he's most likely a better scorer and he has better size to guard wing players. Avery can guard the elite PG's like Rose and Chris Paul or Nash, but they aren't guys we have to worry about in the Eastern conference for the most part, and we have Rondo to take care of them if we do play them.

It's most likely (in my opinion) that Bradley is getting traded while his reputation is still hot. He's just perfect in a trade to acquire a superstar or all star- meaning he looks like he could be an all star or legit starter in the NBA but probably doesn't have the size to become and elite 2, nor the handles to become an elite one.
Perhaps a Jason Terry at best- and that will never get us banner 18.
Best trade him while he's worth the most and get someone like Josh Smith or Verajao back that gives us a legit shot at banner 18.
Title: Re: Courtney Lee.. expendable?
Post by: scaryjerry on November 03, 2012, 08:44:38 AM
If Avery comes back and plays like he did last year, yes hes better...period
Title: Re: Courtney Lee.. expendable?
Post by: thirstyboots18 on November 03, 2012, 10:29:41 AM
I am hoping for the best for AB, but I think it all depends not just on "when" ha comes back, but "how" he comes back.   Shoulders can be sketchy and prone to reinjury.
Title: Re: Courtney Lee.. expendable?
Post by: TA9 on November 03, 2012, 11:56:52 AM
We have too many guards on our team. What we need to improve is our rebounding, we are getting killed on the boards. Wouldnt mind sending Bass and Lee to ATL for J Smoove.
Title: Re: Courtney Lee.. expendable?
Post by: CelticHooligan3 on November 03, 2012, 12:01:38 PM
How many games have we played? That's right...











o
Title: Re: Courtney Lee.. expendable?
Post by: pearljammer10 on November 03, 2012, 12:18:37 PM
If Avery comes back and plays like he did last year, yes hes better...period

People forget that Avery had 14 good games last year out of 66.
Title: Re: Courtney Lee.. expendable?
Post by: BostonNative on November 03, 2012, 12:34:43 PM
can we all just admit that we overrated our team 0_o
Title: Re: Courtney Lee.. expendable?
Post by: pearljammer10 on November 03, 2012, 12:40:10 PM
Btw. It's only two game and he's only averaging 9 points but lee is shooting 62% from the field.
Title: Re: Courtney Lee.. expendable?
Post by: LooseCannon on November 03, 2012, 12:43:18 PM
Based solely on his rookie season, I would be willing to declare Bradley a better defender than Lee.
Title: Re: Courtney Lee.. expendable?
Post by: Jon on November 03, 2012, 12:44:24 PM
Too early for all of this. 

But sure, someone of the guards will inevitably be expendable when/if everyone's healthy. 

Though here's something to consider: if we believe Lee that he took less money to come to the C's than other teams were offering, does it set a bad precedent to trade him away?  Will this deter other players from doing the same, since they could be taking less money to end up playing somewhere they didn't want to play to begin with?   

Now I don't personally believe that other teams were offering Lee more, so maybe it doesn't matter.  But it is something to consider. 
Title: Re: Courtney Lee.. expendable?
Post by: LooseCannon on November 03, 2012, 12:58:48 PM
If it becomes obvious that Lee is a bad fit for the team or if the team is struggling on a 40-45 win trajectory and seems in need of a change, I don't think it will make a difference.
Title: Re: Courtney Lee.. expendable?
Post by: jr_3421 on November 03, 2012, 01:34:59 PM
Just my opinion but I think Lee is going to look a lot better coming off the bench when Bradley gets back. Rondo and Bradley have a weird chemistry offensively and defensively. Lee is great defender but Bradley is disruptive.
Title: Re: Courtney Lee.. expendable?
Post by: cman88 on November 03, 2012, 01:40:40 PM
If Avery comes back and plays like he did last year, yes hes better...period

People forget that Avery had 14 good games last year out of 66.

he really had alot more good games than just 14....fans are starting to really underrate the guy as if he did nothing

it started with when Rondo was injured he began to show his defensive prowness...players around the league already respect him defensively...and he was great in that aspect through when he had to be pulled in the 76ers series

now offensively, he only really came on for the last 20 games or so when he was thrust into the starting lineup..but what fans forget is bradley was known as a GOOD offensive player in college...it should come as no suprise that he can shoot/drive to the hoop
Title: Re: Courtney Lee.. expendable?
Post by: Yogi on November 03, 2012, 02:23:07 PM
   I've enjoyed watching the games.  We're going to be very good.  Do you guys think it's easy to build a winning team?  Our problems are based on execution.  The more we play the better we will get.  Meanwhile we have all the ingredients.  I'm loving the improved rebounding and confidence of Bass.  Barbosa, Lee and Green fast-breaks.  Rondo's scoring mode.  Terry's shot-making.  KG's getting in rhythm. 
   Worried a little about Paul... I hope he didn't hurt himself in Miami.  He should sit tonight.  I am NOT worried about our defense.  As god-awful as it's been, you can see pieces and stretches of a more active and lock-down defense brewing.  Rondo is very frustrated with the guys but they're getting better.
Title: Re: Courtney Lee.. expendable?
Post by: ManUp on November 03, 2012, 02:34:59 PM
Lee is a major asset....as a rookie he shut down Ray Allen in the playoffs....can guard both 2's and 3's

No, that's bs Ray was just missing he had plenty of open shots in that series.
Title: Re: Courtney Lee.. expendable?
Post by: scaryjerry on November 03, 2012, 03:33:04 PM
If Avery comes back and plays like he did last year, yes hes better...period

People forget that Avery had 14 good games last year out of 66.

How many has courtney lee had? none as a celtic and none since he was in orlando...couldnt care less the stats he put up for 2 of the worst teams in the NBA...I can see with my 2 own eyes he doesnt have half the impact defensivly,bradley had a positive impact in more then 14 games last season, that suggestion is laughable
Title: Re: Courtney Lee.. expendable?
Post by: LarBrd33 on November 03, 2012, 03:44:07 PM
If Avery comes back and plays like he did last year, yes hes better...period

People forget that Avery had 14 good games last year out of 66.

How many has courtney lee had? none as a celtic and none since he was in orlando...couldnt care less the stats he put up for 2 of the worst teams in the NBA...I can see with my 2 own eyes he doesnt have half the impact defensivly,bradley had a positive impact in more then 14 games last season, that suggestion is laughable

What?  Courtney Lee had 4 years in College (17.6 points, 2 steals... 46%/40%/81%... 31 minutes) and 4 solid years in the pros (10 points, 1 steal, 44%/39%/83%... 27 minutes) to suggest he's a very capable scorer and defender.

We're mostly basing our interpretation of Avery Bradley off some red-hot games in April during the tail end of a lockout shortened season. 

For the record, Lee's April numbers weren't so bad either.  42% from three, 14 points, 1.6 steals per game.   For what it's worth... Bradley was the 269th most statistically productive player in the league last year.  Lee was 174th.  Gotta remember that Bradley only averaged 7 points and .7 steals during his huge "breakout" season.
Title: Re: Courtney Lee.. expendable?
Post by: pearljammer10 on November 03, 2012, 03:49:51 PM
If Avery comes back and plays like he did last year, yes hes better...period

People forget that Avery had 14 good games last year out of 66.

How many has courtney lee had? none as a celtic and none since he was in orlando...couldnt care less the stats he put up for 2 of the worst teams in the NBA...I can see with my 2 own eyes he doesnt have half the impact defensivly,bradley had a positive impact in more then 14 games last season, that suggestion is laughable

What?  Courtney Lee had 4 years in College and 4 solid years in the pros to suggest he's a very capable scorer and defender.

We're mostly basing our interpretation of Avery Bradley off some red-hot games in April during the tail end of a lockout shortened season. 

For the record, Lee's April numbers weren't so bad either.  42% from three, 14 points, 1.6 steals per game.   For what it's worth... Bradley was the 269th most statistically productive player in the league last year.  Lee was 174th.  Gotta remember that Bradley only averaged 7 points and .7 steals during his huge "breakout" season.

Bingo. TP for being on the same page LarBrd
Title: Re: Courtney Lee.. expendable?
Post by: gar on November 03, 2012, 05:04:52 PM
Enough flailing about. What would trading Lee prove. He is our only Guard with size. Everyone else is 6'3 or under.

Rebounding is not a problem and we haven't even seen what Wilcox can do. Barbosa looks great. Terry has been the most disappointing by far. Rather trade Terry for a promising PG to bring in behind Rondo and Bradley. Barbosa has great speed and good poise at PG. KG, Sulinger and Bass are too slow. Time to give Wilcox some run. He and Rondo had some nice chemistry a couple years ago.

Title: Re: Courtney Lee.. expendable?
Post by: alajet on November 03, 2012, 06:03:06 PM
Enough flailing about. What would trading Lee prove. He is our only Guard with size. Everyone else is 6'3 or under.

Rebounding is not a problem and we haven't even seen what Wilcox can do. Barbosa looks great. Terry has been the most disappointing by far. Rather trade Terry for a promising PG to bring in behind Rondo and Bradley. Barbosa has great speed and good poise at PG. KG, Sulinger and Bass are too slow. Time to give Wilcox some run. He and Rondo had some nice chemistry a couple years ago.

Barbosa is going to be a valuable piece as a bench scorer, I do believe in that.
But I would say it's still very early to put emphasize on Jet's performance so far.
Still, it'd be good if we were able to get someone like Eric Bledsoe in uniform via trade.
Title: Re: Courtney Lee.. expendable?
Post by: pearljammer10 on November 03, 2012, 06:06:11 PM
Enough flailing about. What would trading Lee prove. He is our only Guard with size. Everyone else is 6'3 or under.

Rebounding is not a problem and we haven't even seen what Wilcox can do. Barbosa looks great. Terry has been the most disappointing by far. Rather trade Terry for a promising PG to bring in behind Rondo and Bradley. Barbosa has great speed and good poise at PG. KG, Sulinger and Bass are too slow. Time to give Wilcox some run. He and Rondo had some nice chemistry a couple years ago.

Barbosa is going to be a valuable piece as a bench scorer, I do believe in that.
But I would say it's still very early to put emphasize on Jet's performance so far.
Still, it'd be good if we were able to get someone like Eric Bledsoe in uniform via trade.

Is this a serious suggestion as to wanting Eric Bledsoe of Jason terry? Christ almighty ya'll are wacky. Can't wait our first win so everyone can calm the explicitive down.
Title: Re: Courtney Lee.. expendable?
Post by: alajet on November 03, 2012, 06:11:29 PM
Enough flailing about. What would trading Lee prove. He is our only Guard with size. Everyone else is 6'3 or under.

Rebounding is not a problem and we haven't even seen what Wilcox can do. Barbosa looks great. Terry has been the most disappointing by far. Rather trade Terry for a promising PG to bring in behind Rondo and Bradley. Barbosa has great speed and good poise at PG. KG, Sulinger and Bass are too slow. Time to give Wilcox some run. He and Rondo had some nice chemistry a couple years ago.

Barbosa is going to be a valuable piece as a bench scorer, I do believe in that.
But I would say it's still very early to put emphasize on Jet's performance so far.
Still, it'd be good if we were able to get someone like Eric Bledsoe in uniform via trade.

Is this a serious suggestion as to wanting Eric Bledsoe of Jason terry? Christ almighty ya'll are wacky. Can't wait our first win so everyone can calm the explicitive down.

Just where did you get the idea that I was taking Bledsoe over Terry?
I just said "via trade". I never suggested the piece we were going to trade was to be Terry. I don't know how a trade can be worked out. I didn't even suggest that I'd get Bledsoe for someone else and then put him in front of Terry in the rotation.
All I said was that it'd be good to bring a young guard in like the post I referred to suggested.

For your note, I'm not dwelling on a couple of early regular season losses as some may do. In fact, I find it a rather funny reaction.
Title: Re: Courtney Lee.. expendable?
Post by: Yogi on November 03, 2012, 06:31:23 PM
Relax people.  We're going to be special this year.  Little by little we will put the pieces together.
Title: Re: Courtney Lee.. expendable?
Post by: TripleOT on November 03, 2012, 06:59:24 PM
I was one of the biggest AB doubters around at this time last year, but Bradley was surprisingly good his first time in an NBA rotation, shooting 50/40/80 as a starter and getting a rep as one of the best defenders at the guard spot in the entire league.

The big question is whether AB can get and stay healthy and build off this first time success. I'm looking forward to seeing what happens with AB. As a defender, he should be even more effective now that NBA refs have seen him for a year.

AB as a starter and Lee and JET as a formidable second unit back court works for me. However, if one of the backups can be paired with Bass and picks for Josh Smith, I will personally drive him to Logan airport.     

Title: Re: Courtney Lee.. expendable?
Post by: scaryjerry on November 03, 2012, 08:08:25 PM
If Avery comes back and plays like he did last year, yes hes better...period

People forget that Avery had 14 good games last year out of 66.

How many has courtney lee had? none as a celtic and none since he was in orlando...couldnt care less the stats he put up for 2 of the worst teams in the NBA...I can see with my 2 own eyes he doesnt have half the impact defensivly,bradley had a positive impact in more then 14 games last season, that suggestion is laughable

What?  Courtney Lee had 4 years in College and 4 solid years in the pros to suggest he's a very capable scorer and defender.

We're mostly basing our interpretation of Avery Bradley off some red-hot games in April during the tail end of a lockout shortened season. 

For the record, Lee's April numbers weren't so bad either.  42% from three, 14 points, 1.6 steals per game.   For what it's worth... Bradley was the 269th most statistically productive player in the league last year.  Lee was 174th.  Gotta remember that Bradley only averaged 7 points and .7 steals during his huge "breakout" season.

Bingo. TP for being on the same page LarBrd

Lee played at an unknown school for 4 years...that proves my point more then anything. Avery Bradley was rated the best prospect coming out of HS. he has more upside, Lee essentially has no upside and its why hes on his 4th team in 5 years. lees best scoring year in the pros was 12 ppg on the leagues worst team...he only ever played decent defense in his rookie campaign and even then was overrated. Avery Bradley is a cant miss, special defensive player since the day he was in the pros and his offensive game is coming to him...I couldnt care less about your statistically productive players, its decieving when talking about a role player specializing in defense...lee put up role player production on a garbage team desperate for more. this team is better with Avery Bradley if he can return and play like he did last season, book it
Title: Re: Courtney Lee.. expendable?
Post by: SHAQATTACK on November 03, 2012, 09:59:18 PM
He might be ,  it appears we REALLY need a QUALITY BIG, to help our 20 year old rookie Sully and 37 year ol EX alstar KG.

May wind up seeing Bass, Green and Lee go down the road for ONE better player.
Title: Re: Courtney Lee.. expendable?
Post by: KGs Knee on November 03, 2012, 10:44:25 PM
Haven't been real impressed.  Which is bad, considering as much as we might want to trade whim, what value will he have if he underwhelms.
Title: Re: Courtney Lee.. expendable?
Post by: aporel#18 on November 04, 2012, 12:00:07 AM
I think the Celtics need to develop the Jet-Lee chemistry, as they should be our backup 1-2 punch. Rondo and Bradley together (if healthy, of course) are just something else, you don't see that kind of defensive dominance very often.

Give Doc some time to teach Barbosa all the plays, and let Barbosa get in game shape. Then start Barbosa alongside Rondo, and let Jet/Lee blend as bench backcourt. If everything goes well, Bradley recovers completely and gets back to where he was last year, it's Barbosa the odd man out. The difficult part about this plan is Courtney Lee was brought to Boston to have a chance to start, and that won't please him. But there's no "I" in "TEAM", right?

You could tell Ainge, Doc and Barbosa's agent have contemplated this scenario, so it makes sense to start him as a way of showcasing his talents as average starter/great 6th man. Of course, I'd love to see this whole roster get their rings, but trades happen in the NBA. You better be ready and stockpile assets.
Title: Re: Courtney Lee.. expendable?
Post by: triboy16f on November 04, 2012, 12:53:34 AM
expecting alot from Lee. Lee is a bench player having to play as a starter. He is borderline but usually borderline players are better off the bench. One day he may score 40 points and be on fire but usually gives you 8 to 10 points and gives you an honest effort on defense.

Avery Bradley is a starter , no question about it. His defense alone , could be his offense + defense the whole game. He is one of the top defender in the league

plus his offense is very underrated. Imo he is better than lee offensively. Better handles, able to absorb contact before scoring and shoots just as good.Really need him back