CelticsStrong
Around the League => Around the NBA => Topic started by: KG Living Legend on October 31, 2012, 07:05:48 PM
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Let me start by saying that I love Harden as a player. He's 23, smart, great handle, great in the pick and roll game. Good shooter, more athletic than he looks. Still has some upside. That said No way should he get 80 Million dollars. I wouldn't have an issue with 52 million or even 60 million.
With all the noise about NBA teams losing money. This is a huge problem right now. I would have a rating system. The only players making Max money would be obvious supertars, James,Wade,Bryant,Howard,Paul,Pierce,Durant,Aldridge,Dirk, Love,D Williams, Etc.
And if your a 4.5 star type talent. Joe Johnson,Harden,Josh Smith,Boozer, Grainger, David Lee, Etc.
These next tier type players could still get 55 to 65 million just not 80 million.
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Houston stole Etwuan Moore for nothing. Serves then right.
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If Houston doesn't offer Harden that much money does he stay? It is gret to be fiscally responsible and build assets but eventually you need to cash in those assets for a star player. I believe Harden to be a star player. I predict he is top 10 in the league in scoring next year while playing excellent defense. Is he worth $80 compared to others that make that much? Probably not. Is he worth $80 to Houston if that's the only way he signs there? You betcha.
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With all the noise about NBA teams losing money. This is a huge problem right now. I would have a rating system. The only players making Max money would be obvious supertars, James,Wade,Bryant,Howard,Paul,Pierce,Durant,Aldridge,Dirk, Love,D Williams, Etc.
Well, gee, why not just have the NBA operate like MLS and have player contracts signed with the league rather than individual teams.
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7 starts over his three year career.
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the "lockout" did nothing. owners are still going to spend stupidly (harden is a calculated gamble, but not a terrible one...its not like the dude hasn't produced a lot already). they just got the players to fork over more of the money split. if you thought the lockout was about fixing some of the crazy contracts...expect to be surprised. the lockout was about getting more money back from the players. also, this isn't about OKC being a "small market" team. they get millions in tax breaks, and abandoned a huge market and basketball hotbed (seattle) because the new owner was from OKC and they extored/"persuaded" the people of OKC to build them a new arena.
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Wait, I thought corrupt officiating and David Stern's separate sets of rules for guys like Lebron and Kobe are what's wrong with the NBA?
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Harden is putting on a show tonight
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7 starts over his three year career.
TP for backing me up with facts.
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Wait, I thought corrupt officiating and David Stern's separate sets of rules for guys like Lebron and Kobe are what's wrong with the NBA?
Ding ding ding...we have a winner!
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The harden counter right now,
34 points, 5 rebounds, 8 assists, 2 steals, 1 block.
Still in the 4th quarter
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Teams that can't land the big fish with the max hand out the max to the lower tier player just because they need something on their roster. Most of the guys you mentioned were given Max deals because the missed out on the high profile superstar, the second tier players are lucky enough to be the second option but still get first option superstar money.
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Not a particularly great contract, but it is what it is.
The sad part is this is Houston's third worst contract this offseason.
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Let me start by saying that I love Harden as a player. He's 23, smart, great handle, great in the pick and roll game. Good shooter, more athletic than he looks. Still has some upside. That said No way should he get 80 Million dollars. I wouldn't have an issue with 52 million or even 60 million.
With all the noise about NBA teams losing money. This is a huge problem right now. I would have a rating system. The only players making Max money would be obvious supertars, James,Wade,Bryant,Howard,Paul,Pierce,Durant,Aldridge,Dirk, Love,D Williams, Etc.
And if your a 4.5 star type talent. Joe Johnson,Harden,Josh Smith,Boozer, Grainger, David Lee, Etc.
These next tier type players could still get 55 to 65 million just not 80 million.
The salary scale is to blame for this, but the economics make sense.
We assume that if Lebron makes $18 million, then someone who is clearly inferior should make substantially less.
But in fact, Lebron's is not a "market" salary. It is the maximum allowed by the CBA.
In fact, if we had open bidding for Lebron his salary might be more like $25 million. Or $30 million. (Thought about this way, players like Lebron are the true losers of the CBA).
In which case, Harden's number would look a lot more reasonable. OR, he might get offered less because true superstars would be eating up more payroll.
What you are suggesting is to further regulate salaries all up and down the spectrum. The biggest problem I see is that it's just not feasible. Who "rates" the players?
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I was reading this a while ago. I was gonna respond and say I think he's overpaid. But then I saw what he did to Detroit and I was like, "hmm, I better hold my judgment on this one."
It seems to be a lot of money for now. But he showed in his debut he is a max money player. And he continue to play in a manner of 20-23ppg / 4-6 rpg / 5-7 apg and being efficient on the floor, I think he's worth the max.
We'll see.
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Taj Gibson's 4 year $38 mil contract is worse
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7 starts over his three year career.
TP for backing me up with facts.
This stat means very little, especially on the forum of the team that basically invented the star player as 6th man role. Red Auerbach is shaking his head in shame.
Who cares who starts the game? How many times is he on the floor at the end of the game? That is the important stat.
Not to mention Houston signed him to that contract, not OKC. He'll start for Houston, and be a star.
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Even before tonight Harden was still the 3rd or 4th best SG in basketball. Never had an issue with him wanting max money.
But after tonight it makes outright characterizations of Harden as nothing more than a talented reserve player who averaged less than 18 ppg seem kind of silly.
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Taj Gibson's 4 year $38 mil contract is worse
Wow, that was unnecessary. They should have waited until next summer if they couldn't get a more cost-effective deal now. No need to force through a deal like that when he'll be a restricted free agent next summer.
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Even before tonight Harden was still the 3rd or 4th best SG in basketball. Never had an issue with him wanting max money.
But after tonight it makes outright characterizations of Harden as nothing more than a talented reserve player who averaged less than 18 ppg seem kind of silly.
TP. Exactly.
As Kobe, D-Wade, and Manu age, he has a pretty good chance of being the best shooting guard in basketball. At worst, he will be the 3rd or 4th best shooting guard in basketball for the length of his contract. Worth the max in my eyes.
Houston isn't going broke, despite what the OP may think. They took in 18 million in operating income last year despite higher salary costs. Their salaries are actually lower this year (goodbye Kevin Martin, Kyle Lowry, Samuel Dalembert, Goran Dragic, etc...) Houston has room for another max deal this offseason! They've cut salary! Houston profited last year, they'll profit this year. What's the problem again?
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Let me start by saying that I love Harden as a player. He's 23, smart, great handle, great in the pick and roll game. Good shooter, more athletic than he looks. Still has some upside. That said No way should he get 80 Million dollars. I wouldn't have an issue with 52 million or even 60 million.
With all the noise about NBA teams losing money. This is a huge problem right now. I would have a rating system. The only players making Max money would be obvious supertars, James,Wade,Bryant,Howard,Paul,Pierce,Durant,Aldridge,Dirk, Love,D Williams, Etc.
And if your a 4.5 star type talent. Joe Johnson,Harden,Josh Smith,Boozer, Grainger, David Lee, Etc.
These next tier type players could still get 55 to 65 million just not 80 million.
hahahahahaaha
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Harden gonna earn that money. Get some good players next to him, and Houston could be tough. Lin and Harden will be a good combo. Both like to play up-tempo ball.
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Harden gonna earn that money. Get some good players next to him, and Houston could be tough. Lin and Harden will be a good combo. Both like to play up-tempo ball.
Did you see his stat line tonight? Guy's good. Love fan boy posts like this by kids who just think they know the game inside and out. Why aren't you the one paying players somewhere?
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Considering many teams would have been willing to pay big bucks to Harden, people in the know seem impressed with his skill set.
Just because OKC got diminishing returns from him (with 2 main players who are mostly just scorers) shouldn't limit his ability to get paid based on his talent.
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Harden gonna earn that money. Get some good players next to him, and Houston could be tough. Lin and Harden will be a good combo. Both like to play up-tempo ball.
Did you see his stat line tonight? Guy's good. Love fan boy posts like this by kids who just think they know the game inside and out. Why aren't you the one paying players somewhere?
Haha!
Funny thing was I was giving Harden credit and you misread it completely. Harden will likely earn every penny. I saw the game highlights. I already knew Harden was good.
Young fan boy? Probably ought to avoid these kind of absurd characterizations of people you don't know. I'm neither
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Not a particularly great contract, but it is what it is.
The sad part is this is Houston's third worst contract this offseason.
The Asik one is a real doozy.
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If ya'll played fantasy basketball you'd already know that James Harden was 3rd most productive shooting guard in the entire league last year (behind Wade and Kobe) DESPITE coming off the bench for 90% of the games and playing with two of the biggest stat hogs in basketball.
Tonight... 37 points, 12 assists, 6 rebounds, 4 steals and a block...
There you have it.
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There were tons of terrible contracts this offseason, but Harden's was not one of them. As LarBrd33 pointed out, he was the 3rd best SG in the league last year.
Brook Lopez, Roy Hibbert and Eric Gordon are worth max deals but James Harden isn't? Nicolas Batum is worth $47 million? Taj Gibson is worth $38 million? Aaron Afflalo is worth $43 million? Kris Humphries is worth $12 million a year? Omer Asik and Jeremy Lin's contracts are both far worse too.
I think there were many terrible contracts in the $8-10 million a year range, but I think Harden was worth every penny.
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Even before tonight Harden was still the 3rd or 4th best SG in basketball. Never had an issue with him wanting max money.
But after tonight it makes outright characterizations of Harden as nothing more than a talented reserve player who averaged less than 18 ppg seem kind of silly.
TP. Exactly.
As Kobe, D-Wade, and Manu age, he has a pretty good chance of being the best shooting guard in basketball. At worst, he will be the 3rd or 4th best shooting guard in basketball for the length of his contract. Worth the max in my eyes.
To have the kind of efficiency at age 23 that Harden has is ridiculous. He's also got an extremely marketable persona. He has the potential for ticket-selling star power that even exceeds a max deal.
By this time next year, he'll be in the conversation for best shooting guard in basketball.
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So have some of pierces contracts been what's wrong with the NBA too? Sorry couldn't disagree more I've seen much worse with less deserving and just to throw it out there...he's played 1 game on his new team....better then anything that paper soft Kevin Martin ever did for them
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Taj Gibson's 4 year $38 mil contract is worse
Wow, that was unnecessary. They should have waited until next summer if they couldn't get a more cost-effective deal now. No need to force through a deal like that when he'll be a restricted free agent next summer.
It's a good deal if you think he will get a bigger offer from another team next summer.
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Didn't Ainge originally try to get Harden for Perk?
Man... Jeff Green better have a big season or that will continue to be a depressing "what-if".
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Didn't Ainge originally try to get Harden for Perk?
Man... Jeff Green better have a big season or that will continue to be a depressing "what-if".
I'm not sure how depressing it can be if your "what if" is "what if Presti said yes instead of no".
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DeMarr DeRozan getting 4 years and $40 million is what is wrong with the NBA not Harden's contract.
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DeMarr DeRozan getting 4 years and $40 million is what is wrong with the NBA not Harden's contract.
Well put. I think there are tons of bad deals right now in the NBA even if you overpay, as long as its for a true top tier guy like Harden, it isnt going to be a problem.
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Didn't Ainge originally try to get Harden for Perk?
Man... Jeff Green better have a big season or that will continue to be a depressing "what-if".
Ainge may have wanted Harden, but it didn't seem like OKC had any interest in trading him for what we were offering. The valued him way more than Green, so there really isn't a "what-if" to think about there.
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DeMarr DeRozan getting 4 years and $40 million is what is wrong with the NBA not Harden's contract.
Toronto is also paying Bargnani $10m/yr, so DeRozan's contract is probably more evidence of what is wrong with the Raptors than what is wrong with the NBA.
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Where's the original poster now? :-X
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James Harden could be a top 5 SG in the league. Take his age into account and i can't think of someone I'd rather have over him.
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James Harden could be a top 5 SG in the league. Take his age into account and i can't think of someone I'd rather have over him.
I don't think you needed to say "could be" here and in fact I think he may be top 3. Not the strongest position right now through and through but the top few are strong and he's right there. To me he's top 2.
And then you have to acknowledge that he can play SF and he is also a top player there.
I couldn't disagree with the OP more. Harden is very deserving of the contract. I know it was one game, but in that first Houston game you can clearly see what he can do with more usage. He is a multi dimensional player and will only get better.
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James Harden could be a top 5 SG in the league. Take his age into account and i can't think of someone I'd rather have over him.
I don't think you needed to say "could be" here and in fact I think he may be top 3. Not the strongest position right now through and through but the top few are strong and he's right there. To me he's top 2.
I couldn't disagree with the OP more. Harden is very deserving of the contract. I know it was one game, but in that first Houston game you can clearly see what he can do with more usage. He is a multi dimensional player and will only get better.
He is a very good player and worth the contract in today's NBA, but I don't think James Harden is going to lead any team to a title as his teams best player. Which means they gave him a lot of money and gave up a kings ransom to get him, which probably wasn't the wisest move. I mean is Harden, Lin, Asik, etc. as a base ever really going to form a title contender. If not, then why waste all of those pieces and the cap space to trade and then sign him. I just don't know what Houston is doing.
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James Harden could be a top 5 SG in the league. Take his age into account and i can't think of someone I'd rather have over him.
I don't think you needed to say "could be" here and in fact I think he may be top 3. Not the strongest position right now through and through but the top few are strong and he's right there. To me he's top 2.
I couldn't disagree with the OP more. Harden is very deserving of the contract. I know it was one game, but in that first Houston game you can clearly see what he can do with more usage. He is a multi dimensional player and will only get better.
He is a very good player and worth the contract in today's NBA, but I don't think James Harden is going to lead any team to a title as his teams best player. Which means they gave him a lot of money and gave up a kings ransom to get him, which probably wasn't the wisest move. I mean is Harden, Lin, Asik, etc. as a base ever really going to form a title contender. If not, then why waste all of those pieces and the cap space to trade and then sign him. I just don't know what Houston is doing.
I don't disagree that he doesn't make them a title contender but let's be real. LeBron James wasn't enough to get to the title alone. I don't see this as a knock on Harden but just the reality of what it takes to compete in the NBA.
We have seen now that you need probably three star players to contend for a title now.
Houston has said openly they are looking for another star caliber player to add to Harden. The guy Harden reminds me of is Manu Ginobili (with a higher ceiling, considering his age) and of course Manu was part of a three man core that contended for titles, and he wasn't the team's best player either.
I think Harden could perhaps be the best player on a title team given his age right now, but even if he's not that isn't a knock to me. I don't think they gave up too much or are paying him too much either.
What he does do as well is make Houston a more attractive landing spot for a big free agent.
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Jeff Grees's (sorry)contract is what's wrong with the NBa. Even if he does pan out it doesn't change the fact that we paid for what he could become instead of what he is. Teams pay more for potential than actual production. I don't think Harden is a max player (imo, very few players getting paid the max are worth it), but the way other guys are getting paid why shouldn't he get the max.
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The more restrictive a "max contract" becomes, the more players are deserving of the max. Lebron james is "worth" twice the max easily but he cannot get it. So when you artificially cap tje truly elite players, there is no proportional depreciation of salaries of the next tier; that tier is not overpaid, its just that there are really 3 types if max guys: underpaid, overpaid, appropriately paid. But once you hit tje max there is no way to rectify being underpaid.
Interestingly while the salary cap is designed to promote parity, individual max contracts promotes super teams.
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James Harden could be a top 5 SG in the league. Take his age into account and i can't think of someone I'd rather have over him.
I don't think you needed to say "could be" here and in fact I think he may be top 3. Not the strongest position right now through and through but the top few are strong and he's right there. To me he's top 2.
I couldn't disagree with the OP more. Harden is very deserving of the contract. I know it was one game, but in that first Houston game you can clearly see what he can do with more usage. He is a multi dimensional player and will only get better.
He is a very good player and worth the contract in today's NBA, but I don't think James Harden is going to lead any team to a title as his teams best player. Which means they gave him a lot of money and gave up a kings ransom to get him, which probably wasn't the wisest move. I mean is Harden, Lin, Asik, etc. as a base ever really going to form a title contender. If not, then why waste all of those pieces and the cap space to trade and then sign him. I just don't know what Houston is doing.
I don't disagree that he doesn't make them a title contender but let's be real. LeBron James wasn't enough to get to the title alone. I don't see this as a knock on Harden but just the reality of what it takes to compete in the NBA.
We have seen now that you need probably three star players to contend for a title now.
Houston has said openly they are looking for another star caliber player to add to Harden. The guy Harden reminds me of is Manu Ginobili (with a higher ceiling, considering his age) and of course Manu was part of a three man core that contended for titles, and he wasn't the team's best player either.
I think Harden could perhaps be the best player on a title team given his age right now, but even if he's not that isn't a knock to me. I don't think they gave up too much or are paying him too much either.
What he does do as well is make Houston a more attractive landing spot for a big free agent.
Of course you need more than 1 player, but there is no one in the world that thought Lebron James couldn't win a title as his teams best player. He didn't have a strong enough supporting cast in Cleveland, but everyone knew if he had a stronger supporting cast he could have.
James Harden isn't that guy. His skill set isn't good enough to win a title as his teams best player and I don't think it ever will be (I mean I suppose he could be in a Detroit Pistons type situation, but those are really really rare titles). And it isn't like he is joining a team that has some other "star" players on it. Houston is now good enough to make the playoffs (or just miss them), but not near good enough to win a title. They won't have cap space any time soon, and gave up a lot of their real good trade chips, all to hit mediocrity. It was a stupid trade for Houston.
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They (Houston) won't have cap space any time soon
This is maybe the most misunderstood thing about this trade. Houston will have room for a max-level player next summer.
They'll also have Royce White, Terrance Jones, Parsons, Donuts Motiejunas, Patrick Patterson, Marcus Morris, plus all their own picks.
PLus, if they package all their expiring contracts, they have right around 7 million dollars in expiring money to send out in a potential trade, on top of their existing 3 million cap room this year.
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James Harden could be a top 5 SG in the league. Take his age into account and i can't think of someone I'd rather have over him.
I don't think you needed to say "could be" here and in fact I think he may be top 3. Not the strongest position right now through and through but the top few are strong and he's right there. To me he's top 2.
I couldn't disagree with the OP more. Harden is very deserving of the contract. I know it was one game, but in that first Houston game you can clearly see what he can do with more usage. He is a multi dimensional player and will only get better.
He is a very good player and worth the contract in today's NBA, but I don't think James Harden is going to lead any team to a title as his teams best player. Which means they gave him a lot of money and gave up a kings ransom to get him, which probably wasn't the wisest move. I mean is Harden, Lin, Asik, etc. as a base ever really going to form a title contender. If not, then why waste all of those pieces and the cap space to trade and then sign him. I just don't know what Houston is doing.
I don't disagree that he doesn't make them a title contender but let's be real. LeBron James wasn't enough to get to the title alone. I don't see this as a knock on Harden but just the reality of what it takes to compete in the NBA.
We have seen now that you need probably three star players to contend for a title now.
Houston has said openly they are looking for another star caliber player to add to Harden. The guy Harden reminds me of is Manu Ginobili (with a higher ceiling, considering his age) and of course Manu was part of a three man core that contended for titles, and he wasn't the team's best player either.
I think Harden could perhaps be the best player on a title team given his age right now, but even if he's not that isn't a knock to me. I don't think they gave up too much or are paying him too much either.
What he does do as well is make Houston a more attractive landing spot for a big free agent.
Of course you need more than 1 player, but there is no one in the world that thought Lebron James couldn't win a title as his teams best player. He didn't have a strong enough supporting cast in Cleveland, but everyone knew if he had a stronger supporting cast he could have.
James Harden isn't that guy. His skill set isn't good enough to win a title as his teams best player and I don't think it ever will be (I mean I suppose he could be in a Detroit Pistons type situation, but those are really really rare titles). And it isn't like he is joining a team that has some other "star" players on it. Houston is now good enough to make the playoffs (or just miss them), but not near good enough to win a title. They won't have cap space any time soon, and gave up a lot of their real good trade chips, all to hit mediocrity. It was a stupid trade for Houston.
This is such an arbitrary critique. I bet you same the said about Dirk at one point, yet Dirk won as the best player (by far) on the Mavs. Detroit won, arguably without any player at the level that we can expect Harden to reach. Detroit was a team of guys who only made all star games because of Detroit's record.
I see no substance to your argument since it deals complete in ill-defined 'intangibles' that tend to be nothing more than begging the question.
And why wouldn't they have cap space? What math are you using? Lin's contract is probably less than the MLE for this year and next. Asik just barely gets 8 figures. And even if they didn't have cap space, we didn't have cap space when we acquired Allen and KG. Pierce, like Dirk, would seem to fit the same characterization you provide for Harden.
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James Harden could be a top 5 SG in the league. Take his age into account and i can't think of someone I'd rather have over him.
I don't think you needed to say "could be" here and in fact I think he may be top 3. Not the strongest position right now through and through but the top few are strong and he's right there. To me he's top 2.
I couldn't disagree with the OP more. Harden is very deserving of the contract. I know it was one game, but in that first Houston game you can clearly see what he can do with more usage. He is a multi dimensional player and will only get better.
He is a very good player and worth the contract in today's NBA, but I don't think James Harden is going to lead any team to a title as his teams best player. Which means they gave him a lot of money and gave up a kings ransom to get him, which probably wasn't the wisest move. I mean is Harden, Lin, Asik, etc. as a base ever really going to form a title contender. If not, then why waste all of those pieces and the cap space to trade and then sign him. I just don't know what Houston is doing.
I don't disagree that he doesn't make them a title contender but let's be real. LeBron James wasn't enough to get to the title alone. I don't see this as a knock on Harden but just the reality of what it takes to compete in the NBA.
We have seen now that you need probably three star players to contend for a title now.
Houston has said openly they are looking for another star caliber player to add to Harden. The guy Harden reminds me of is Manu Ginobili (with a higher ceiling, considering his age) and of course Manu was part of a three man core that contended for titles, and he wasn't the team's best player either.
I think Harden could perhaps be the best player on a title team given his age right now, but even if he's not that isn't a knock to me. I don't think they gave up too much or are paying him too much either.
What he does do as well is make Houston a more attractive landing spot for a big free agent.
Of course you need more than 1 player, but there is no one in the world that thought Lebron James couldn't win a title as his teams best player. He didn't have a strong enough supporting cast in Cleveland, but everyone knew if he had a stronger supporting cast he could have.
James Harden isn't that guy. His skill set isn't good enough to win a title as his teams best player and I don't think it ever will be (I mean I suppose he could be in a Detroit Pistons type situation, but those are really really rare titles). And it isn't like he is joining a team that has some other "star" players on it. Houston is now good enough to make the playoffs (or just miss them), but not near good enough to win a title. They won't have cap space any time soon, and gave up a lot of their real good trade chips, all to hit mediocrity. It was a stupid trade for Houston.
This is such an arbitrary critique. I bet you same the said about Dirk at one point, yet Dirk won as the best player (by far) on the Mavs. Detroit won, arguably without any player at the level that we can expect Harden to reach. Detroit was a team of guys who only made all star games because of Detroit's record.
I see no substance to your argument since it deals complete in ill-defined 'intangibles' that tend to be nothing more than begging the question.
And why wouldn't they have cap space? What math are you using? Lin's contract is probably less than the MLE for this year and next. Asik just barely gets 8 figures. And even if they didn't have cap space, we didn't have cap space when we acquired Allen and KG. Pierce, like Dirk, would seem to fit the same characterization you provide for Harden.
Dirk has always had the it factor. So has Pierce. I have seen nothing from Harden that leads me to believe he is even close to their level (or that he will get there). He may prove me wrong, but I just don't see it. He is a good player, but I would be surprised if anyone ever called him great. Dirk and Pierce were always thought of as great players.
The Pistons are a blip on the radar. Those type of teams historically don't even compete for championship nonetheless win them, but I clearly mentioned that as a possible way where a good player like Harden could be his teams best player and win a title. If you are planning on that strategy as a team though, you are setting yourself up to fail.
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They (Houston) won't have cap space any time soon
This is maybe the most misunderstood thing about this trade. Houston will have room for a max-level player next summer.
They'll also have Royce White, Terrance Jones, Parsons, Donuts Motiejunas, Patrick Patterson, Marcus Morris, plus all their own picks.
PLus, if they package all their expiring contracts, they have right around 7 million dollars in expiring money to send out in a potential trade, on top of their existing 3 million cap room this year.
Yeah, I looked at Shamsports and they over calculated Lin and Asik for next year by about 6 million, which would have put Houston more in the low 50's which isn't enough for a max player (which is what I was meaning to say i.e. Houston won't have the cap space to sign a "star" for awhile). Take that 6 million out and they will. Now if they can sign Paul or Howard next summer, then the trade will definitely be worth it, but that is a gigantic question mark.
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James Harden could be a top 5 SG in the league. Take his age into account and i can't think of someone I'd rather have over him.
I don't think you needed to say "could be" here and in fact I think he may be top 3. Not the strongest position right now through and through but the top few are strong and he's right there. To me he's top 2.
I couldn't disagree with the OP more. Harden is very deserving of the contract. I know it was one game, but in that first Houston game you can clearly see what he can do with more usage. He is a multi dimensional player and will only get better.
He is a very good player and worth the contract in today's NBA, but I don't think James Harden is going to lead any team to a title as his teams best player. Which means they gave him a lot of money and gave up a kings ransom to get him, which probably wasn't the wisest move. I mean is Harden, Lin, Asik, etc. as a base ever really going to form a title contender. If not, then why waste all of those pieces and the cap space to trade and then sign him. I just don't know what Houston is doing.
I don't disagree that he doesn't make them a title contender but let's be real. LeBron James wasn't enough to get to the title alone. I don't see this as a knock on Harden but just the reality of what it takes to compete in the NBA.
We have seen now that you need probably three star players to contend for a title now.
Houston has said openly they are looking for another star caliber player to add to Harden. The guy Harden reminds me of is Manu Ginobili (with a higher ceiling, considering his age) and of course Manu was part of a three man core that contended for titles, and he wasn't the team's best player either.
I think Harden could perhaps be the best player on a title team given his age right now, but even if he's not that isn't a knock to me. I don't think they gave up too much or are paying him too much either.
What he does do as well is make Houston a more attractive landing spot for a big free agent.
Of course you need more than 1 player, but there is no one in the world that thought Lebron James couldn't win a title as his teams best player. He didn't have a strong enough supporting cast in Cleveland, but everyone knew if he had a stronger supporting cast he could have.
James Harden isn't that guy. His skill set isn't good enough to win a title as his teams best player and I don't think it ever will be (I mean I suppose he could be in a Detroit Pistons type situation, but those are really really rare titles). And it isn't like he is joining a team that has some other "star" players on it. Houston is now good enough to make the playoffs (or just miss them), but not near good enough to win a title. They won't have cap space any time soon, and gave up a lot of their real good trade chips, all to hit mediocrity. It was a stupid trade for Houston.
This is such an arbitrary critique. I bet you same the said about Dirk at one point, yet Dirk won as the best player (by far) on the Mavs. Detroit won, arguably without any player at the level that we can expect Harden to reach. Detroit was a team of guys who only made all star games because of Detroit's record.
I see no substance to your argument since it deals complete in ill-defined 'intangibles' that tend to be nothing more than begging the question.
And why wouldn't they have cap space? What math are you using? Lin's contract is probably less than the MLE for this year and next. Asik just barely gets 8 figures. And even if they didn't have cap space, we didn't have cap space when we acquired Allen and KG. Pierce, like Dirk, would seem to fit the same characterization you provide for Harden.
Dirk has always had the it factor. So has Pierce. I have seen nothing from Harden that leads me to believe he is even close to their level (or that he will get there). He may prove me wrong, but I just don't see it. He is a good player, but I would be surprised if anyone ever called him great. Dirk and Pierce were always thought of as great players.
The Pistons are a blip on the radar. Those type of teams historically don't even compete for championship nonetheless win them, but I clearly mentioned that as a possible way where a good player like Harden could be his teams best player and win a title. If you are planning on that strategy as a team though, you are setting yourself up to fail.
When Dirk averaged 8 points per game in his first year he had the it factor and you considered him great? I think it took a few years. Harden is a pretty good player already and has done nothing but improve since he entered the league.
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Dirk has always had the it factor. So has Pierce. I have seen nothing from Harden that leads me to believe he is even close to their level (or that he will get there). He may prove me wrong, but I just don't see it. He is a good player, but I would be surprised if anyone ever called him great. Dirk and Pierce were always thought of as great players.
The Pistons are a blip on the radar. Those type of teams historically don't even compete for championship nonetheless win them, but I clearly mentioned that as a possible way where a good player like Harden could be his teams best player and win a title. If you are planning on that strategy as a team though, you are setting yourself up to fail.
So you are making an argument that is basically "I don't see it"? I trust Morey more. So, who are on your list of players how have the 'it factor'? Who are all the players in the league teams can build around?
Harden suffered from his role in OKC, much like how Ginobili suffered from being 6th man. Ginobili needed to start more before his greatness was fully recognized by many, though basketball people were fully aware of his skill set. Ginobili's individual legacy probably suffered through less all star appearances and all NBA teams due to his 6th man role.
The best thing Harden could do for his legacy was get out of OKC where he was with 2 guys who don't do much on offense besides score (though Durant is probably the best in the league at doing that). That left him to be the 'fill in the gaps' complimentary guy. Now that an offense is centered around him, he can show all he brings to the table, which is quite a lot. Coaches will build an offense that is tailored to getting the most out of him.
This is a good year for Harden to move if we want to compare him to Pierce. Pierce was also 23 when he started averaging mid-20 PPG.
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What's wrong with trading for Harden and giving him that contract if Harden is only good enough to be the #2 guy on a title team?
Harden doesn't need to be a #1 option on a title team for this to be a successful trade / signing for Houston.
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What's wrong with trading for Harden and giving him that contract if Harden is only good enough to be the #2 guy on a title team?
Harden doesn't need to be a #1 option on a title team for this to be a successful trade / signing for Houston.
For me, I would save the pieces to get a #1, not a #2. Houston just traded a solid veteran with an expiring contract, a first round pick last year, two first round picks this year, and a high second round pick this year for a #2 but who is his teams best player (at the moment). Too much to give up for not enough upside for me.
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His stat line the other night looked pretty Max Dollarish to me..
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What's wrong with trading for Harden and giving him that contract if Harden is only good enough to be the #2 guy on a title team?
Harden doesn't need to be a #1 option on a title team for this to be a successful trade / signing for Houston.
For me, I would save the pieces to get a #1, not a #2. Houston just traded a solid veteran with an expiring contract, a first round pick last year, two first round picks this year, and a high second round pick this year for a #2 but who is his teams best player (at the moment). Too much to give up for not enough upside for me.
But Harden himself is still only 23, do you think he has maxed out his own potential at this point?
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What's wrong with trading for Harden and giving him that contract if Harden is only good enough to be the #2 guy on a title team?
Harden doesn't need to be a #1 option on a title team for this to be a successful trade / signing for Houston.
For me, I would save the pieces to get a #1, not a #2. Houston just traded a solid veteran with an expiring contract, a first round pick last year, two first round picks this year, and a high second round pick this year for a #2 but who is his teams best player (at the moment). Too much to give up for not enough upside for me.
What if Harden is the piece they need to land that #1 guy?
Either as a trade asset to land that #1 guy (like Andrew Bynum for Dwight Howard) or as a secondary star to convince that #1 guy that if he joins (via free agency or trade), he'll have a chance to win a Championship.
Nothing but upside here for me for Houston.
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What's wrong with trading for Harden and giving him that contract if Harden is only good enough to be the #2 guy on a title team?
Harden doesn't need to be a #1 option on a title team for this to be a successful trade / signing for Houston.
Pippen would be the poster boy for this, considering his lack of success without Jordan despite being such a vital part of the Bulls' championship teams.
The whole #1 option idea is probably irrelevant since winning isn't just about scorers. KG hasn't led us in scoring, but his impact has been the greatest due to our reliance on defense. Someone like Stockton was clearly worthy of a max deal, but would never be a team's leading scorer because his contributions were more pronounced through running the offense and defending.
Still, if Harden is going to average high 20s in PPG, he will probably be the #1 offensive option, even if paired with another top player unless it is Lebron, Durant, or CP3 (though Lebron or CP3 would probably get him an open shot at the buzzer if that was the best play). Actually, my comment is premature. Harden still has to prove himself as the guy in Houston. But is it absurd for people to close the book on him already.
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What's wrong with trading for Harden and giving him that contract if Harden is only good enough to be the #2 guy on a title team?
Harden doesn't need to be a #1 option on a title team for this to be a successful trade / signing for Houston.
For me, I would save the pieces to get a #1, not a #2. Houston just traded a solid veteran with an expiring contract, a first round pick last year, two first round picks this year, and a high second round pick this year for a #2 but who is his teams best player (at the moment). Too much to give up for not enough upside for me.
What if Harden is the piece they need to land that #1 guy?
Either as a trade asset to land that #1 guy (like Andrew Bynum for Dwight Howard) or as a secondary star to convince that #1 guy that if he joins (via free agency or trade), he'll have a chance to win a Championship.
Nothing but upside here for me for Houston.
Pretty much how I see it. I liked this trade a lot for Houston.
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More of the same from Harden tonight.
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On that Rockets team, Harden should get 15-25 shots a night, and he could easily be top 5 in the league in scoring. I can't imagine he'll be any lower than top 10.
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That ROckets team is so young... Delfino is 30 and then the second oldest player is 26 years old.
Harden put up a super efficient 45 points tonight. He was already the 3rd most productive SG in the league last year (49% shooting, 39% from three and 85% from the line)... and now he's starting and is the team's top scorer. Totally worth the money.
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That ROckets team is so young... Delfino is 30 and then the second oldest player is 26 years old.
Harden put up a super efficient 45 points tonight. He was already the 3rd most productive SG in the league last year (49% shooting, 39% from three and 85% from the line)... and now he's starting and is the team's top scorer. Totally worth the money.
Lot of people skeptical of Morey this summer, but suddenly Lin-Harden-Asik looks like one of the best young cores in the league, especially with budding role players like Parsons, Patterson, and Morris. Not to mention guys that haven't even got much play like Royce White, Donatas Motiejunas, and Terrence Jones.