CelticsStrong
Celtics Basketball => Celtics Talk => Topic started by: rondohondo on October 10, 2012, 09:13:37 AM
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http://www.boston.com/sports/basketball/celtics/2012/10/09/celtics-jeff-green-contributing-off-the-bench/zVryccX9FBIYp8QcCkuMDJ/story.html
“Oh I’d like to get comfortable with that,” Rivers said. “That was terrific [to see the bench thrive]. With our team, we’re just going to keep searching. In the past, we had to search for the right starting lineup. I think this year we have to search for the right second lineup and we may take a starter out of the starting lineup and play him in the second lineup because it may fit him better. It will be interesting. We’re just going to keep moving guys around.”
I don't think he is talking about Jeff Green because we need his versatility off the bench. Also don't think it's Bradley because we saw how good he was as a starter last year.
As many other people on here have already said Sully's low post game fits better with KG's shooting and Bass' shooting fits better with Darko being in the low post.
SO glad this kid dropped to us. He will bring much needed rebounding, garbage points and someone to go to in the low post.
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Humm..
I'd have say that sounds like a wake up call for Brandon Bass, or a get ready to come off the bench notice to me. Need to see a couple more pre season games to be sure.
I think Bradley will play his way back to a starter postion at some point in the year .
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Honestly, I like it. Regardless of who is the "better" player, I like Bass coming off the bench, as a more explosive player, and Sully as more of a facilitator with the stars in the starting lineup.
Sully is at his best setting screens, moving the ball, and getting position for rebounds, which is what they need with the starters. Bass is at his best jumping around, and hitting jumpers.
I would love to see what Bass and Green can do in a pick and roll game.
Even last year, I think most people agreed that Bass was ideally a 6th man, who was forced into the starting lineup. This might allow him to return to his ideal role.
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I'm not an expert or coach , just an average fan , but it seemed that Sully looked very confident , relaxed , and at home paired up with the starters.
Sully seems to embrace the role of rebounder , garbage man, inside scorer. Bass doesn't see himself in this light, his work around the basket is more by chance than instinct.
Futhermore Sully seems to have already earned the "TRUST" of his teammates., to make the correct play on offense.
At 20 years old, he is making mostly right moves and earning the attention. can't ignore this.
I guess bluntly put...who would you rather have standing under the rim with the ball ....Bass or Sully ?
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sully starting the 2nd preseason game should have been a big wakeup call to the sully doubters.
All this talk about bass being known and sully being an unknown entity. sullys been a known entity to doc since sullys sophomore or junior year of high school. Docs been a big fan for at least 4 years.
Sully would have started over bass last year if he had come out and celtics traaded for a top 4 pick.
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Doc could also be talking about starting Green over Pierce.
Mike
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Doc's been hinting about starting Sully for awhile now. I think he prefers Bass with the second unit, and Sully learning to play off KG.
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Take anything Doc says with grain of salt. He speaks in hyperbole. I'll believe it when Doc follows through with it. For now, my speculation would be Avery playing point-guard for second unit. which makes a lot of sense.
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Doc could also be talking about starting Green over Pierce.
Mike
I don't think this is a likely.
Doc's been hinting about starting Sully for awhile now. I think he prefers Bass with the second unit, and Sully learning to play off KG.
I'd be cool with this, but still pretty surprised if it is how it went down. I still think KG/Darko, Bass/KG are both more likely starting frontcourts.
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I don't see us putting Darko in the starting line up, just not good enough to earn it. Plus Doc has said that KG is going to stay at C.
I think Bass and then Sullinger are the leading candidates, depending on how they both play.
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Doc's been hinting about starting Sully for awhile now. I think he prefers Bass with the second unit, and Sully learning to play off KG.
Yup..I think this is the direction Doc is going, Bass and KG both have that outside jumper which I see as redundant. Sully being able to flash to bucket with doubles on PP and KG , plus Rondo is already obviously looking for Sully .
What has bothered me past few years is the ONE and DONE shot on the offensive end. We toss up a shot and it seems thats it , just one oppotunity to get it in the hole. While many teams ( CHICAGO) for example will get sometimes 3 or 4 putbacks. ??? LA always gets 3-6 putbacks till they get it in the hole.
Sully , doesn't stop playing after ball is launched.
Sully understands lost art of BLOCKING OUT .
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All this talk about bass being known and sully being an unknown entity. sullys been a known entity to doc since sullys sophomore or junior year of high school. Docs been a big fan for at least 4 years.
Right, because Sullinger has played against NBA-caliber big men ever since his junior year in high school.
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Well if you want to hide Sully's lack of defensive abilities and still maximize his abilities as a productive offensive player, there's no better way of doing it than making him play with the starters most of his minutes.
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Well if you want to hide Sully's lack of defensive abilities and still maximize his abilities as a productive offensive player, there's no better way of doing it than making him play with the starters most of his minutes.
Except that making him play against taller, starting-caliber PFs is probably not maximizing his abilities as a productive offensive player.
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Well if you want to hide Sully's lack of defensive abilities and still maximize his abilities as a productive offensive player, there's no better way of doing it than making him play with the starters most of his minutes.
Except that making him play against taller, starting-caliber PFs is probably not maximizing his abilities as a productive offensive player.
The backup PFs are often taller or more athletic than him too. That's not going to change. But when he is playing with guys like Rondo and KG, he is going to benefit a lot more by being left alone, and he is also going to get a lot more switches by running picks for Pierce and whoever the SG is.
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Well if you want to hide Sully's lack of defensive abilities and still maximize his abilities as a productive offensive player, there's no better way of doing it than making him play with the starters most of his minutes.
Except that making him play against taller, starting-caliber PFs is probably not maximizing his abilities as a productive offensive player.
Might actually be for his benefit to be playing alongside Kevin Garnett, a good passer and taller than him, than playing alongside Bass off the bench when he'd probably get the taller/stronger defensive player assigned to him, plus playing alongside a big man who doesn't pass.
So, I think starting, even with a starting-caliber PF as his opponent, might be to his benefit.
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high school player of the year, national spotlight and sky high expectations, and he's met every expectation and dominated at every level, always handling the pressure with grace.
Not even one minute of rookie jitters in his first preseason game.
Consumate baller, who doc didnt even dare dream about getting on his team.
He just has a potential back issue, but that doesnt mean he wasnt always considered a likely first team all rookie selection and immediate above average nba player.
He's like a shorter tim duncan, which is a borderline all star player for 10 years.
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Well if you want to hide Sully's lack of defensive abilities and still maximize his abilities as a productive offensive player, there's no better way of doing it than making him play with the starters most of his minutes.
Except that making him play against taller, starting-caliber PFs is probably not maximizing his abilities as a productive offensive player.
I have never equated size with defensive or offensive ability. talent yes, size, no.
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Why assume that Sully won't be able to defend taller, more athletic PFs? He's going to body them, at least, something that Bass isn't great at doing. And even if Bass is better at defender taller PFs, I'd rather have the weaker defender playing with KG.
To me, Sullinger is one of those rare guys who just gets it. Throw him in the deep water, and he will figure out how to swim.
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Well if you want to hide Sully's lack of defensive abilities and still maximize his abilities as a productive offensive player, there's no better way of doing it than making him play with the starters most of his minutes.
Except that making him play against taller, starting-caliber PFs is probably not maximizing his abilities as a productive offensive player.
I have never equated size with defensive or offensive ability. talent yes, size, no.
Well, I think their point (and its a good one) is that Sully's biggest knock in college was that he struggled to score in the post against longer defenders. He would kill guys his size and smaller, but bigger guys would often swallow him up.
The problem is, I don't think the C's have much interest in feeding him in the post like they did at OSU, when he was the focal point of the offense. They will take advantage of those skills when he has a mismatch, but otherwise, he will be more of a garbageman on offense. Which will allow him to really use his soft hands and footwork, playing off the other starters.
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Why assume that Sully won't be able to defend taller, more athletic PFs? He's going to body them, at least, something that Bass isn't great at doing. And even if Bass is better at defender taller PFs, I'd rather have the weaker defender playing with KG.
To me, Sullinger is one of those rare guys who just gets it. Throw him in the deep water, and he will figure out how to swim.
Yeah, and the defense so far has been impressive. He still has some work to do, but I think he is already more versed in the team defense than Bass was 2+ months into last season, and is probably more advanced than Powe was 1 and a half years into his career.
And when it comes to young guys getting on the floor, it is all about the defensive system. Once Sully gets that, there is going to be nothing keeping him from playing, and yes, perhaps even starting.
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Doc's been hinting about starting Sully for awhile now. I think he prefers Bass with the second unit, and Sully learning to play off KG.
I'd be cool with this, but still pretty surprised if it is how it went down. I still think KG/Darko, Bass/KG are both more likely starting frontcourts.
Well, I also thought we'd be moving KG to the 4 and starting Darko in the regular season, but it looks like that won't happen.
I think the important thing is that Doc doesn't necessarily care about starting his best 5 players. He likes to have strong lineups together throughout the game. If he thinks the veteran starters can stabilize Sully, and Bass can stabilize the bench units moreso than the reverse, I think he'll go with it. Remember that the game plan when we got Bass was to bring him off the bench as the #3 big, too.
Doesn't mean the team thinks Sully is the better player, just the better fit.
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It's abundantly clear that Sully fits better with KG, and Bass with Darko. Doc's just paving the way for what they have known for a while now - that Sullinger is going to start and play a big role right away.
To me, Sulliger's play will be the key to this team winning a title. They desperately need inside play and physicality. If Sully can be an impact guy in the paint and take the occasional hard foul, the Cs will be way better off.
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More of a confirmation what we all already knew but didn't want to believe i.e. Brandon Bass is not a starting level PF and has only been playing there because Boston has no one better.
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More of a confirmation what we all already knew but didn't want to believe i.e. Brandon Bass is not a starting level PF and has only been playing there because Boston has no one better.
Exactly. Although I would say (more positively), that Bass is an ideal PF off the bench for this team. His energy, and shooting gives them a real spark off the bench, and can do a lot of damage against other teams second units.
Although, this year, they are lucky enough to have (at least) 2 other sparks off the bench in Terry and Green.
If Sully and Lee play well enough to stay in the starting lineup, this team is going to be able to throw so much at other teams from their bench. It will be so different from what we have seen the last few years.
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Sully definitely needs to be in the starting line up, imagine with our shooters how many more 2-4 point posessions we'd get with sully pulling down offensive rebounds and either finishing at the rim or dishing them out to our snipers.
With bass on the bench we dont lose anything because it makes us look even better if he's our second guy at the 4 because our rookie is that good, and we will still retain line-ups with him and garnett spacing the floor as jumper bigs. I expect with some of greens added strength we will see that same effectiveness with him and bass on the court.
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Well if you want to hide Sully's lack of defensive abilities and still maximize his abilities as a productive offensive player, there's no better way of doing it than making him play with the starters most of his minutes.
Hit the nail on the head. Sullinger's defense will be up and down this season. Put him next to KG where he can capitalize off his passing and defensive prowess.
Bass also has familiarity with Jet from their days in Dallas. Don't forget that. In the first two games it seems that Doc wants Green attacking the basket. Especially off of screens. Bass as a pick and pop big would be better at complimenting Green and Jet.
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With Garnett's 5-5-5 minute distribution, I think Doc can get Sully just as much minutes alongside KG off the bench as he can with Sully in the starting lineup.
However, in the bench role, Sully will be matched up mostly against backup big men who are mostly inferior offensive threats relative to starting PFs and inferior defensive players who are less capable of stopping him.
I think Sully will take the starting spot from Bass at some point but I believe he'll need to play passable (albeit below average) defense before that happens. Not sure when that will be. Maybe at some point this season and almost definitely by next season. I am taking a more cautious view and am expecting it to be next season. It would be great if he could win that starting spot this year though. I love his offense/rebounding as a complement to that starting unit.
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Well if you want to hide Sully's lack of defensive abilities and still maximize his abilities as a productive offensive player, there's no better way of doing it than making him play with the starters most of his minutes.
Except that making him play against taller, starting-caliber PFs is probably not maximizing his abilities as a productive offensive player.
I have never equated size with defensive or offensive ability. talent yes, size, no.
I've said nothing about size. I've just said he's known to have problems finishing against taller opposition, so I'm not sure making him go against the Josh Smiths and Chris Boshes of the world will maximize his ability.
That doesn't mean he won't start, whether it's right away or later on, but there's no guarantee that he is, at this point, ready and able to deal with this level of competition. I'm refusing to take two games agains European opponents as conslusive indicator of anything.
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The 2nd lineup isn't much of a drop from the starters anyway after the center position:
KG/Darko
Bass/Sully
PP/Green
Lee/Bradley
Rondo/Jet
I know it would never happen but KG would be a good energy guy off the bench(falls off chair laughing.)Can come in at either center or pf. :P
He could win 6th man of the year! He's a heckuva cheerleader too
Wilcox or Darko
Bass
PP
Bradley
Rondo
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Well if you want to hide Sully's lack of defensive abilities and still maximize his abilities as a productive offensive player, there's no better way of doing it than making him play with the starters most of his minutes.
Except that making him play against taller, starting-caliber PFs is probably not maximizing his abilities as a productive offensive player.
I have never equated size with defensive or offensive ability. talent yes, size, no.
I've said nothing about size. I've just said he's known to have problems finishing against taller opposition, so I'm not sure making him go against the Josh Smiths and Chris Boshes of the world will maximize his ability.
That doesn't mean he won't start, whether it's right away or later on, but there's no guarantee that he is, at this point, ready and able to deal with this level of competition. I'm refusing to take two games agains European opponents as conslusive indicator of anything.
But in the case of the Heat, Bosh is the starting center, so he'd be guarded by Battier or Lebron, but most likely Battier. (Frankly, Miami has my permission to waste Lebron's defense by having him guard Sully.) Offensively, he'll probably be able to handle that matchup. The concern vs. the Heat will be defensive, because now he has to guard Battier's perimeter jump shots. That said, this would be a similar issue with Bass starting. (I know Bass had a good few minutes vs. Lebron defensively in the ECF, but my money is on Lebron to exploit that matchup if it appears for the majority of the game.)
At least vs. the Heat, the argument could be made that the appropriate bench player to start would be Green, not Sully.
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in the end I think it will be Bass starting
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The quickest way to bring Sully along is to play him with the starters. Sully is a strong rebounder which is what the starters have lacked these last few years.
I do believe Doc is on the right track with this. The Darko,Bass,Green second unit looks effective in 2 preseason games.
Eventually once Bradley gets healthy I think we will see the starting unit of
Rondo
Bradley
Pierce
Sully
Garnett
and a second unit of
Terry
Lee
Green
Bass
Darko
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With Garnett's 5-5-5 minute distribution, I think Doc can get Sully just as much minutes alongside KG off the bench as he can with Sully in the starting lineup.
However, in the bench role, Sully will be matched up mostly against backup big men who are mostly inferior offensive threats relative to starting PFs and inferior defensive players who are less capable of stopping him.
I think Sully will take the starting spot from Bass at some point but I believe he'll need to play passable (albeit below average) defense before that happens. Not sure when that will be. Maybe at some point this season and almost definitely by next season. I am taking a more cautious view and am expecting it to be next season. It would be great if he could win that starting spot this year though. I love his offense/rebounding as a complement to that starting unit.
TP
The thing to figure out to me will be how the rotations will work. You start both KG and Sully but when KG subs out at the 5min mark who comes in? I'm assuming JT and Green are gonna be the 1st players off the bench to come in. That leaves a smallish frontcourt to handle some of the other teams starters for another min or 2 until maybe Darko or Bass comes in?? I'd assume Darko so he could be the backstop while Green plays a few min at the 4 until Pierce subs out and Bass would likely come in for him. Does that sound right? Sully would have to hold down the fort at center against the opponent's top center for maybe another 2 min until the next sub when Darko would come in for him. Wow...who saw this possibility coming? Jared Sullinger, a rookie, starting at the 4 for a title contending team. And then Darko Milicic playing an important role in the 9-10 man rotation.
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The quickest way to bring Sully along is to play him with the starters. Sully is a strong rebounder which is what the starters have lacked these last few years.
I do believe Doc is on the right track with this. The Darko,Bass,Green second unit looks effective in 2 preseason games.
Eventually once Bradley gets healthy I think we will see the starting unit of
Rondo
Bradley
Pierce
Sully
Garnett
and a second unit of
Terry
Lee
Green
Bass
Darko
Don't forget Wilcox!
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in the end I think it will be Bass starting
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
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Well Doc has been raving about Sullinger for quite some time now. I think it all depends on how Sully is fitting into the defense. If the Celtics' defense can function at the elite level with him at the 4, then I'm for it. Sully brings more to the table than Bass on the offensive end and he's undoubtedly a smarter player than Bass.
I loved Bass last year but we put him in the starting role out of desperation. He was really suited more for being the scoring punch off the bench as our sixth man. His numbers didn't really improve that much when he was inserted into the starting 5, and now he's being paid good money, so I don't think there's much to complain about if he's put on the second unit.
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It would help Sullinger's case for starting if he has a few spots on the floor where he is comfortable taking an open mid-range jumper (and where Rondo is comfortable passing to him when he is open).
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Well Doc has been raving about Sullinger for quite some time now. I think it all depends on how Sully is fitting into the defense. If the Celtics' defense can function at the elite level with him at the 4, then I'm for it. Sully brings more to the table than Bass on the offensive end and he's undoubtedly a smarter player than Bass.
I loved Bass last year but we put him in the starting role out of desperation. He was really suited more for being the scoring punch off the bench as our sixth man. His numbers didn't really improve that much when he was inserted into the starting 5, and now he's being paid good money, so I don't think there's much to complain about if he's put on the second unit.
"His numbers didn't really improve that much," that's because they didn't improve. His numbers were better off the bench, it's why I keep saying he's better suited as bench player for us, where the impact his strengths are augmented and his weaknesses diminished.
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Well Doc has been raving about Sullinger for quite some time now. I think it all depends on how Sully is fitting into the defense. If the Celtics' defense can function at the elite level with him at the 4, then I'm for it. Sully brings more to the table than Bass on the offensive end and he's undoubtedly a smarter player than Bass.
I loved Bass last year but we put him in the starting role out of desperation. He was really suited more for being the scoring punch off the bench as our sixth man. His numbers didn't really improve that much when he was inserted into the starting 5, and now he's being paid good money, so I don't think there's much to complain about if he's put on the second unit.
"His numbers didn't really improve that much," that's because they didn't improve. His numbers were better off the bench, it's why I keep saying he's better suited as bench player for us, where the impact his strengths are augmented and his weaknesses diminished.
Right. You can flip this argument around and say that since you can plug him in the starting lineup without loss of production, he's a natural starter.
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Well Doc has been raving about Sullinger for quite some time now. I think it all depends on how Sully is fitting into the defense. If the Celtics' defense can function at the elite level with him at the 4, then I'm for it. Sully brings more to the table than Bass on the offensive end and he's undoubtedly a smarter player than Bass.
I loved Bass last year but we put him in the starting role out of desperation. He was really suited more for being the scoring punch off the bench as our sixth man. His numbers didn't really improve that much when he was inserted into the starting 5, and now he's being paid good money, so I don't think there's much to complain about if he's put on the second unit.
"His numbers didn't really improve that much," that's because they didn't improve. His numbers were better off the bench, it's why I keep saying he's better suited as bench player for us, where the impact his strengths are augmented and his weaknesses diminished.
Right. You can flip this argument around and say that since you can plug him in the starting lineup without loss of production, he's a natural starter.
Other than I'm not arguing whether Bass is a bench or starter player. I'm arguing where he fits best for us, and where he's more useful for us and I think in my opinion it's from the bench.
The other side is that when he was plugged as a starter his productivity per minute was diminished to go along with a lowering of efficiency. Which is interesting since most of his minutes as a starter came late in the season when he was playing alongside a rejuvenated KG and Rondo was playing like the best PG in the league.
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For most of the summer, I was against Sully starting for much of the same reason that many said here: I thought he'd be an asset on the bench being able to score in the post and could take advantage of weaker backups. Bass isn't posting up anyone; so it doesn't really matter if he's matched up against starters or bench players.
I still think that may indeed be the case. However, I do think there's another side to it.
I think there's an argument to be made that the starting lineup needs scoring punch more than the bench. At this point in their careers, Terry and Green may be better at getting a shot off on their own than Pierce and KG (collectively).
Furthermore, if Rondo is going to play slower while KG and PP are out there, it might be Sullinger's best interest to play with the starters to get post opportunities.
Then Doc can bring in Bass (who is a great finisher) to run alongside the likes of Green, Terry, and either Lee or Bradley with a second unit.
I think there's pros and cons to each side, so I wouldn't lose much sleep over it.
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ill be honest... I have been thinking about KG being the 6th man lol... I know I will get a lot of backlash for this but with rondo scoring like he is it wouldn't be a bad idea. then you can reserve KG for playoff time baby! and maybe add some more years to him.
rondo
AB
PP
Sully
Darko
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With Garnett's 5-5-5 minute distribution, I think Doc can get Sully just as much minutes alongside KG off the bench as he can with Sully in the starting lineup.
How do you figure? 20 of KG's 30 mpg are with the starters typically - the 5 at the beginning and end of each half. I think if you want Sully getting 20 mpg without exposing him defensively, you've got to start him.
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let me be the first to give you some backlash...haha
KG is the MAN, not the 6th man. I want KG setting the tone at the start of every game and playing with Rondo and PP. I can't think of any reason to not start KG that helps our team. I mean his minutes are already getting monitored.
ill be honest... I have been thinking about KG being the 6th man lol... I know I will get a lot of backlash for this but with rondo scoring like he is it wouldn't be a bad idea. then you can reserve KG for playoff time baby! and maybe add some more years to him.
rondo
AB
PP
Sully
Darko
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let me be the first to give you some backlash...haha
KG is the MAN, not the 6th man. I want KG setting the tone at the start of every game and playing with Rondo and PP. I can't think of any reason to not start KG that helps our team. I mean his minutes are already getting monitored.
ill be honest... I have been thinking about KG being the 6th man lol... I know I will get a lot of backlash for this but with rondo scoring like he is it wouldn't be a bad idea. then you can reserve KG for playoff time baby! and maybe add some more years to him.
rondo
AB
PP
Sully
Darko
It gives KG more preparation time. Maybe.
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preparation time? not sure what you mean?
I think if one is trying to argue that KG needs more rest during the season, I feel it would be better for him to have the occasional night off than come off the bench. I just don't think that coming off the bench saves his body any better than having his minutes monitored. Plus it makes the team worse.
let me be the first to give you some backlash...haha
KG is the MAN, not the 6th man. I want KG setting the tone at the start of every game and playing with Rondo and PP. I can't think of any reason to not start KG that helps our team. I mean his minutes are already getting monitored.
ill be honest... I have been thinking about KG being the 6th man lol... I know I will get a lot of backlash for this but with rondo scoring like he is it wouldn't be a bad idea. then you can reserve KG for playoff time baby! and maybe add some more years to him.
rondo
AB
PP
Sully
Darko
It gives KG more preparation time. Maybe.
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preparation time? not sure what you mean?
I think if one is trying to argue that KG needs more rest during the season, I feel it would be better for him to have the occasional night off than come off the bench. I just don't think that coming off the bench saves his body any better than having his minutes monitored. Plus it makes the team worse.
let me be the first to give you some backlash...haha
KG is the MAN, not the 6th man. I want KG setting the tone at the start of every game and playing with Rondo and PP. I can't think of any reason to not start KG that helps our team. I mean his minutes are already getting monitored.
ill be honest... I have been thinking about KG being the 6th man lol... I know I will get a lot of backlash for this but with rondo scoring like he is it wouldn't be a bad idea. then you can reserve KG for playoff time baby! and maybe add some more years to him.
rondo
AB
PP
Sully
Darko
It gives KG more preparation time. Maybe.
I mean he could be preparing his knees and warming up instead of starting the game. Just trying to justify what he was saying, not saying it's too big a difference (games start at night anyway so he'll have the entire day to prepare).
I'm with the people who say it doesn't matter too much who starts, though. The players who get the minutes and finish the games are more important.
Although KG might be the exception to the rule. He hypes everyone up and starting him might even be beneficial (the argument was that bringing him in as the 6th man might be beneficial).
I must kind-of-sort-of disagree with one thing you said though, that KG should start just because he is "the man". I know he is but then again it does not matter. I just think everyone is overlooking this. If somehow KG's 6th man relegation benefits the team, I'm pretty sure he'd do it. Egos are left at home with these guys.
But otherwise, yes, there is no reason.
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Here is what Doc thinks on the matter, by the way:
http://www.celticstown.com/2012/10/10/doc-is-considering-moving-a-starter-to-the-second-unit/
We can slide Kevin over to the four to start games. The first half of the year I don’t know if that’s a bad thing, so Kevin doesn’t have a wrestling match the entire season with the bigs. There’s a lot of thoughts. We may go to a transitional starting lineup, have three different starting lineups. We’ve put a lot of thought into it, we’ll just figure it out.
Slightly unrelated but I myself think KG lasts longer at the 5. Bruising bigs that fit Doc's category of "wrestlers" are few and far between...
Bynum, Dwight? (not really a "wrestling" post player, but definitely will drain KG)...Al Jeff, Gortat and Cousins might be but games against them (barring a trade) probably won't matter.
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I think there's an argument to be made that the starting lineup needs scoring punch more than the bench. At this point in their careers, Terry and Green may be better at getting a shot off on their own than Pierce and KG (collectively).
I disagree.
Our starting lineup will always be better offensively firstly because we have more dominant scorers (Rondo, Pierce, KG) but moreso because the starters have Rondo directing the offense.
The second unit will play 10-15 minutes with somebody other than Rondo running the offense, and you can guarantee that the offensive efficiency will drop as a result.
Also that starters will be dominant defensively as they always are, so offense is not as critical. The defense should still be very good defensively, but nowhere near as dominant as the starters.
For those two reasons we need all the consistent scoring punch we can get off the bench to hold (or better yet increase) the lead while our starters rest.
I think Terry, Lee, Green and Bass would make the most dominant offensive second unit in the NBA by far, while Milicic manning the middle helps to ensure we don't get soft on defense - plus his passing will be a nice asset on that unit too.
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Doc could also be talking about starting Green over Pierce.
And then using who to back up Pierce? I don't see this happening, as it hurts our second unit way too much at the SF spot.
For now, my speculation would be Avery playing point-guard for second unit. which makes a lot of sense.
Did you see Doc's recent comment a couple of days ago on this topic? He basically said his biggest regret of the past few years was was trying to force Bradley to play PG.
He said Bradley is a natural SG, and that by trying to force him to play the point halted his growth as a player, and that it wasn't until he let him play his natural position that he really started to shine.
He also said he doesn't like to see Terry and Lee bringing the ball up for the same reason (they are better when playing off the ball) but I think he'd rather use Terry or Lee there rather then use a young Avery Bradley and risk limiting his development.
Because Bradley is so effective with the starting unit and Terry is our #1 scoring option off the bench, it wouldn't surprise me if Doc goes a little unorthodox and uses a combinaton of Courtney Lee and Jeff Green to facillitate the offense on that second unit. Possibly using Lee to bring the ball up and then passing off to Green to initiate the play.
He was really suited more for being the scoring punch off the bench as our sixth man. His numbers didn't really improve that much when he was inserted into the starting 5
I agree entirely about Bass being better on the bench, but will he really be the 6th man? I think more likely the 8th man, as I think both Terry and Green are above Bass on the depth chart when we go to the bench.
Wow - having Jason Terry, Jeff Green and Brandon Bass coming off the bench...and Courney Lee as your 9th man? That's just insane!!
Courntney Lee would be a starter or a 6th man for any team not named San Antonio (Ginobilli, Jackson), OKC (Harden) or Miami (Ray Allen).
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If that's the case, i love it.
I think Bass coming off the bench fits him perfectly. He's an energy spark along with Terry, and another scoring option.
I hope him going to the bench does not kill some of his confidence though. Then again, he was supposed to be a bench guy from the start until JO went, you know, JO.
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I wouldn't read too much into Doc's comments..just my opinion.
Over the last few years, I've seen Doc experiment with our lineups...do IMO crazy substitutions...play people longer than what WE thought they should've played, etc, etc.
I've seen threads on here grilling Doc for it, lol.
I'm sure Doc will continue to tinker with the lineups, even moreso now. We have perhaps our best bench since 07-08.
I can honestly see Doc using maybe 10-15 games this season to experiment with lineups. Some of those experiments WILL cost us some games, but I trust Doc Rivers. Whatever he does with the lineup will be in the best interests of BOS, and will leave us better prepared to play well into June of 2013.
As for Bass over Sully? As much as I love Sully, I'd be shocked if he starts over Bass. As others here have mentioned (Who, I think), Bass is a better defender than Sully.
But he may not be for long, though. Sully is a Basketball Sponge.
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I don't see us putting Darko in the starting line up, just not good enough to earn it. Plus Doc has said that KG is going to stay at C.
Is there any reason to think that Darko is that much worse than Jermaine O'Neal was? Because I remember him starting a ton at center.
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With Garnett's 5-5-5 minute distribution, I think Doc can get Sully just as much minutes alongside KG off the bench as he can with Sully in the starting lineup.
How do you figure? 20 of KG's 30 mpg are with the starters typically - the 5 at the beginning and end of each half. I think if you want Sully getting 20 mpg without exposing him defensively, you've got to start him.
Here is what we know about the lineups and rotations:
1) Doc is going to do everything possible to limit KG's minutes.
2) This year, for the first time, Pierce will probably be a sub-30 minute player.
3) Doc is going to obsess over 2 major weaknesses from last season: rebounding, and our 2nd unit scoring
4) The #1 goal is to get our entire lineup to the playoffs without injury
5) Rondo will be the only player getting over 30 minutes a game
So - how does that affect Bass vs. Sully and other starting lineup choices? My guess is that Doc will want Bass on the floor with the 2nd unit more often for his shooting and scoring ability. That might lead to Sully eventually starting, to keep the rotations consistent.
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Yup I agree for the C's to have ANY hope in the playoffs KG and PP HAVE TO BE THERE . Green and Sully , BASS and Darko and Wilcox should see alot of minutes .
Bass is a natural off the bench role guy . But he's done good job filling in as a starter as well.
AS somebody once said , you can't have enough bigs. They seem to evaporate as the season progresses.
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I like Bass off of the bench EXCEPT that it will kill his trade value. Ever since we signed Sullinger I've been on the "trade Bass" bandwagon. I like Bass, I think he's a good player, I think he's a top tier 2nd unit guy, but we need things more than PF right now. KG, Sullinger and Green can all play the pick-and-pop PF role. It's a strange amount of redundancy when what we really need is a backup PG or a safety net at SF.
I think more likely what you'll see is Bass starting but losing the minutes battle with Sullinger, maybe not to start the year but by Jan/Feb you'll see Sullinger's knack for rebounding and BBIQ sort of force Doc's hand. If he benched Ray Allen for the good of the team...
It's no secret that I'd like Scott Machado on the C's as soon as humanly possible. I'd give up Bass for him, which imo is fair value for an undrafted guy who made a good showing in camp. To make the salaries work we might have to work another team in. I thought up something that would get us a backup PG and SF for Bass and a 2nd round pick:
BOS trades Bass for Mbah a Moute
BOS sends a 2nd round pick and Kris Joseph to HOU for Scott Machado
Obviously this is a trade that would have to be mid-season because Bass can't be traded until the January 15th but it solves both of our 3rd string deficiencies while not losing much of our depth.
The Machado trade could happen as early as December 15th.
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sully starting the 2nd preseason game should have been a big wakeup call to the sully doubters.
All this talk about bass being known and sully being an unknown entity. sullys been a known entity to doc since sullys sophomore or junior year of high school. Docs been a big fan for at least 4 years.
Sully would have started over bass last year if he had come out and celtics traaded for a top 4 pick.
Sully will get better and better, Bass has maxed out in my opinion. Handled things very well in the Knicks game. But..............what about his back?? He dropped to what 21st in the draft? Should we be using him cautiously?
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Sully scored the team high points against the knicks. 14 pts also chipping in 7 rebounds.
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I think Sully will eventually be starting. But, I believe Doc will make Sully take it away from Bass during the regular season or rather earn it., out of respect for Bass if nothing else.
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I think Sully will eventually be starting. But, I believe Doc will make Sully take it away from Bass during the regular season or rather earn it., out of respect for Bass if nothing else.
I just don't see how this is Bass' role to lose. He wasn't brought here to be a starter. He became a starter last year by default because of injuries.
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Sully is a solid player but his PnR defense is absolutely atrocious. He was getting abused by a freaking guy who was playing in Belgium last year.
Until Sully shows some ability to recover on defense on PnR's hard to see him starting..
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I think Sully will eventually be starting. But, I believe Doc will make Sully take it away from Bass during the regular season or rather earn it., out of respect for Bass if nothing else.
I just don't see how this is Bass' role to lose. He wasn't brought here to be a starter. He became a starter last year by default because of injuries.
This is definitely true, however there is a lot of 'hope' out there that Sullinger will win the role as if it was Bass spot to begin with. I guess there is some truth and drama to enjoy but frankly I wouldnt be surprised if Green or Sullinger ended up being the starter.
I also would not be surprised to see Darko starting with KG at the PF.
It all makes for a good bit of camp battle excitement doesnt it?
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AS long as Sully and Green continue to produce , they need to be on the floor.
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AS long as Sully and Green continue to produce , they need to be on the floor.
And they will, rest assure. The key now IMHO is for Doc to find out the best combinations and use all of this depth Danny has given him. We have a lot of guys who can get it done. My fear is that Doc will stick with veterans as is his history and not play the younger players as much as they need to be played.
It's all about trust I think.
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AS long as Sully and Green continue to produce , they need to be on the floor.
And they will, rest assure. The key now IMHO is for Doc to find out the best combinations and use all of this depth Danny has given him. We have a lot of guys who can get it done. My fear is that Doc will stick with veterans as is his history and not play the younger players as much as they need to be played.
It's all about trust I think.
KG seems to be happy to sit and watch the younger guys Green , Lee and Sully dunk on people.
Somehow , I don't Pierce , JET or KG have actually turned it on yet during preseason. They seem to be just cruzing along at about 75% energy , then exit the game.
Gonna be wild when they finally let go at Miami.
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Doesn't he say stuff like this every year?
Team is ridiculously deep right now - will be fun to see things shake out.
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I honestly don't have a problem either way. As long as there is a fairly consistent rotation being utilized. I'd rather players get comfortable in a role and playing with certain people than who is the starter and who is coming off the bench, while I do think Sully would excel better against second units, especially to start the season.
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I really think Doc knows that Sully is the better fit with the starters (against most teams), and Bass is the better option off the bench. But, he is treading lightly right now, to keep Bass engaged. He wants to make sure he can say that Sully "earned" the starting spot.
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I really think Doc knows that Sully is the better fit with the starters (against most teams), and Bass is the better option off the bench. But, he is treading lightly right now, to keep Bass engaged. He wants to make sure he can say that Sully "earned" the starting spot.
I agree totally, by making Sully earn the spot , Doc keeps his word as a fair players coach.
Doc was as fair with Allen as possible, I think he'll be the same with Bass. Nothing wrong with a little competition to earn a spot. I would think being a starter gives you leverage in contracts. If Bass out plays Sully , don't think the move will come fast if a all. Seems to me Bass seems more activate around the basket past preseason games .
Bass is big fellow , IMO he needs to be much more physical around the basket.
Also think Sully is gonna be even better in a few months, he may still be growing at only 20.
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That's an overlooked possibility - Sullinger could possibly grow another inch or two. This doesn't seem to happen much in the NBA, but it is physically possible.
I wonder if all the jumping and landing on a hard surface (much more in an NBA season than a college basketball season) reduces the likelihood of a player who enters the league "early" reaching their full potential height. In fact, that would make an interesting research study if there were any remote chance of getting accurate data.
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That's an overlooked possibility - Sullinger could possibly grow another inch or two. This doesn't seem to happen much in the NBA, but it is physically possible.
I wonder if all the jumping and landing on a hard surface (much more in an NBA season than a college basketball season) reduces the likelihood of a player who enters the league "early" reaching their full potential height. In fact, that would make an interesting research study if there were any remote chance of getting accurate data.
Shedding weight and lifting could make him grow.
He'd be one of the top 50 draft steals in NBA history.