CelticsStrong
Around the League => Around the NBA => Topic started by: Eja117 on October 09, 2012, 12:47:24 PM
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I've noticed this because of fantasy basketball and the recent espn rankings. There were good prospects ranked in the 400s. We have enough talent to fill large rosters for 20 teams now. And you look at it and you think "Man. These guys just aren't retiring". You have guys at advanced ages getting horrid injuries and coming back to play at a high level (like KG). Can you really tell the difference between Steve Nash and a 32 year old? Can you tell any difference between a 32/33 year old Pau Gasol and a 27 year old? Camby is still in this league. Look at Grant Hill and Jason Kidd. Something has changed. One way or another whether it's HGH or international talent the league/world has enough talent to sustain 3 more teams easily. Money is another matter but talent isn't. I thiiinnnkkk that having so much talent in the NBA has filtered to Europe and around the world so all leagues have more talent now. And it's happening overseas too. Sarunas Jasikevicus is like 34 and still playing. I don't think players are in as big a rush to get here now because of it. You see teams drafting guys like Mirotic and Bogdanovic and they aren't expected to come till 2015 or something. I definitely think things are different
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I think the league has changed because players are now taught from a young age to take care of their bodies, and teams are investing more and more each year so that players who are serious about staying healthy have access to the most advanced treatments and comprehensive nutrition plans available.
I never really invest too much speculation into PED's possible influence, but that doesn't mean they don't exist. However, I'm much more of a 'when there is smoke, there is fire' kind of guy, and we haven't even seen any kind of smoke yet.
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Definitely suspect medical advances before suspecting HGH. Bird would have lasted a lot longer in this era.
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http://www.cbssports.com/nba/story/15093944/wades-denial-of-peds-in-nba-hardly-believable
Decent article on the topic. Could we get the refs some of those PED's that enhance eyesight?
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I think there are lots of reasons that there are more athletic guys, and more guys staying healthy a long time. But I am not sure it really changes the overall talent level that much. Because there is also a backlash effect of these super athletes, because they aren't learning the skills like they used to.
These days, you have kids spending more hours in the weight room, when they would have been in the Gym 20-30 years ago. It might make them more able to make spectacular dunks, but doesn't necessarily make them better basketball players.
Clearly the game has changed and evolved over the years, but I think the number of weak players is just as high as it was in the past...its just the weak players are now weeded out for different reasons than they were before.
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The globalization of the game, advances in medical technology/techniques/knowledge, the increased cheapness and availability of high quality equipment and training facilities ... there are a lot of non-sinister reasons for the amount of talent out there.
I think what is telling, though, is that there is a lot of All-Star or borderline All-Star talent, but not a lot of SUPERSTARS. At least, the ratio of superstars to the rest of the league has remained relatively constant, but the baseline average of talent has raised. This is pretty good evidence that this isn't due to HGH or anything.
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http://www.cbssports.com/nba/story/15093944/wades-denial-of-peds-in-nba-hardly-believable
Decent article on the topic. Could we get the refs some of those PED's that enhance eyesight?
I thought the article rather well...dumb. The article, summed up in less than 20 words: "Other sports denied all knowledge before they got busted. Wade denied all knowledge. Basketball is a sport."
It's your typical fence-sitter, no substance, waste of space article.
A preview from next week's 'expose':
"I'm not saying someone in the athletic department at From-my-Butt University has used their position and influence to molest young boys, but recent denial from AD Frank Madeuperton has to have you wondering.
Everyone from the dean at PSU to the janitors said they didn't know anything about Jerry Sandusky before it was shown that they..well, knew something about Jerry Sandusky.
FMBU hasn't had a major sexual abuse scandal, so it's no problem for AD Madeuperton. Nobody has pointed an accusatory finger at Fake Football Coach, Fake basketball coach, or Fake Baseball Coach, for that matter. So it's not a problem for them, either.
But problems tend to announce themselves at their own time, so let's go easy on the "It's nothing I think takes place" stuff. It surely does. It may be isolated, and it may be miniscule, but it's there because nobody at this level of income and revenue can assume that it isn't. That would be madness.
And, given the new Sandusky/Fine revelations/claims, madness is where you find it."
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I think a widespread HGH problem in the NBA would be pretty hard to cover up. Looking at how its impacted the MLB, I just think there would be substantial whispers about it. Especially given the way the NBA is so superstar centric.
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Can you really tell the difference between Steve Nash and a 32 year old? Can you tell any difference between a 32/33 year old Pau Gasol and a 27 year old? Camby is still in this league. Look at Grant Hill and Jason Kidd. Something has changed.
In regards to this part, yes I can tell the difference between a 27 year old Nash and a 32 year old Nash, but I don't really think anything has changed.
In the 2000's, you had Kevin Willis, Dikembe Mutombo, Cliff Robinson, Karl Malone, John Stockton, Charles Oakley and Michael Jordan play past 40.
In the 1990's you had Herb Williams, Rick Mahorn, Danny Schayes, Charles Jones, Robert Parish, John Long, and James Edwards play past 40.
And only a very few players (Kareem, Cousy, Nat Hickey) in all the years before the 90’s.
So in the 2000's you had 7 guys play past 40, but in the 1990's with less teams you still had 7 guys play past 40. And so far in 2010's we've had 2 guys play past 40 (Kurt Thomas and Grant Hill). So to me it doesn’t look like anything has changed here except the NBA added a lot more teams starting in the late 80’s. Unless you think James Edwards, Herb Williams, and John Long were the early adapters of HGH.
And a lot of these older guys just get by on name recognition. I think there's a big difference between Steve Nash and Jason Kidd now and 5 years ago. Jason Kidd only averaged 6.2ppg and 5.5apg last year on 36% shooting. I think everyone of us can see a huge difference between Garnett, Pierce, and Ray Allen now and 5 years ago.
And let's not forget rule changes that encourage must less contact. Players now don't go through the beatings that players from the past had to.
Not to say there isn't PED use, but player longevity isn't an indicator.
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http://www.cbssports.com/nba/story/15093944/wades-denial-of-peds-in-nba-hardly-believable
Decent article on the topic. Could we get the refs some of those PED's that enhance eyesight?
I thought the article rather well...dumb. The article, summed up in less than 20 words: "Other sports denied all knowledge before they got busted. Wade denied all knowledge. Basketball is a sport."
It's your typical fence-sitter, no substance, waste of space article.
I disagree, I mean if you were hoping it would have inside information on steroids in basketball than ya, you were let down. But reinforcing the point that muscles isnt the only barometer of PED's is important. A basketball player could gain a much greater advantage by increasing spead, reactions, jumping and rehab than other sports where people desire more power.
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And let's not forget rule changes that encourage must less contact. Players now don't go through the beatings that players from the past had to.
This is a really good point. Players today have better training and they're more protected by the rules than in past generations. PED use is definitely happening to some degree, but older players sticking around isn't necessarily the smoking gun.
I love how many vets are staying effective through their mid- to late-30s though. Makes the league a lot deeper after expansion diluted the talent for about 15 years.
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http://www.cbssports.com/nba/story/15093944/wades-denial-of-peds-in-nba-hardly-believable
Decent article on the topic. Could we get the refs some of those PED's that enhance eyesight?
I thought the article rather well...dumb. The article, summed up in less than 20 words: "Other sports denied all knowledge before they got busted. Wade denied all knowledge. Basketball is a sport."
It's your typical fence-sitter, no substance, waste of space article.
I disagree, I mean if you were hoping it would have inside information on steroids in basketball than ya, you were let down. But reinforcing the point that muscles isnt the only barometer of PED's is important. A basketball player could gain a much greater advantage by increasing spead, reactions, jumping and rehab than other sports where people desire more power.
But isn't that point true in virtually every sport?
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I suspect that there's widespread use of HGH and similar drugs in the four major sports.
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http://www.cbssports.com/nba/story/15093944/wades-denial-of-peds-in-nba-hardly-believable
Decent article on the topic. Could we get the refs some of those PED's that enhance eyesight?
I thought the article rather well...dumb. The article, summed up in less than 20 words: "Other sports denied all knowledge before they got busted. Wade denied all knowledge. Basketball is a sport."
It's your typical fence-sitter, no substance, waste of space article.
I disagree, I mean if you were hoping it would have inside information on steroids in basketball than ya, you were let down. But reinforcing the point that muscles isnt the only barometer of PED's is important. A basketball player could gain a much greater advantage by increasing spead, reactions, jumping and rehab than other sports where people desire more power.
But isn't that point true in virtually every sport?
When I think of Football and hitting a Baseball I think Strength is one of the best enhancements that PED's can provide you. I don't think its as applicable in basketball because the attributes I just mentioned are probably more desirable than strength. I mean Rashard Lewis never really struck me as being jacked, but he is the one that got caught.
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http://www.cbssports.com/nba/story/15093944/wades-denial-of-peds-in-nba-hardly-believable
Decent article on the topic. Could we get the refs some of those PED's that enhance eyesight?
I thought the article rather well...dumb. The article, summed up in less than 20 words: "Other sports denied all knowledge before they got busted. Wade denied all knowledge. Basketball is a sport."
It's your typical fence-sitter, no substance, waste of space article.
I disagree, I mean if you were hoping it would have inside information on steroids in basketball than ya, you were let down. But reinforcing the point that muscles isnt the only barometer of PED's is important. A basketball player could gain a much greater advantage by increasing spead, reactions, jumping and rehab than other sports where people desire more power.
But isn't that point true in virtually every sport?
When I think of Football and hitting a Baseball I think Strength is one of the best enhancements that PED's can provide you. I don't think its as applicable in basketball because the attributes I just mentioned are probably more desirable than strength. I mean Rashard Lewis never really struck me as being jacked, but he is the one that got caught.
IIRC Rashard Lewis said he had bought an OTC supplement back in 2006 that he didn't know contained banned substances. People generally bought that explanation. I'm not sure you can use him as a template for PED abuse.
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I suspect that there's widespread use of HGH and similar drugs in the four major sports.
Anthony Davis on draft day .....
(http://timekeepingscore.files.wordpress.com/2012/07/147514226.jpg?w=600&h=400&crop=1)
Anthony Davis 4 months later.....
(http://c-product.images.dreamsretail.com/77-21/77-21963-F.jpg)
(http://a.espncdn.com/photo/2012/1004/nba_u_davis11sc_288v.jpg)
(http://www.slamonline.com/online/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/anthony_davis.jpg)
things that make you go hmmmm :o
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I suspect that there's widespread use of HGH and similar drugs in the four major sports.
Anthony Davis on draft day .....
(http://timekeepingscore.files.wordpress.com/2012/07/147514226.jpg?w=600&h=400&crop=1)
Anthony Davis 4 months later.....
(http://c-product.images.dreamsretail.com/77-21/77-21963-F.jpg)
(http://a.espncdn.com/photo/2012/1004/nba_u_davis11sc_288v.jpg)
(http://www.slamonline.com/online/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/anthony_davis.jpg)
things that make you go hmmmm :o
See here is where the PED's argument hits a wall for me.
Tell me why a kid like Davis, consensus #1 overall pick, on a rebuilding team with honestly very low expectations this season, and coming off of a career year, would take PED's between draft day and the beginning of the season?
He's got a guaranteed contract. He's already the #1 pick. He has literally everything to lose by getting caught and very, very, little to gain.
It is exponentially more likely that he got a nutritional adviser and a personal trainer and worked hard.
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http://www.cbssports.com/nba/story/15093944/wades-denial-of-peds-in-nba-hardly-believable
Decent article on the topic. Could we get the refs some of those PED's that enhance eyesight?
I thought the article rather well...dumb. The article, summed up in less than 20 words: "Other sports denied all knowledge before they got busted. Wade denied all knowledge. Basketball is a sport."
It's your typical fence-sitter, no substance, waste of space article.
I disagree, I mean if you were hoping it would have inside information on steroids in basketball than ya, you were let down. But reinforcing the point that muscles isnt the only barometer of PED's is important. A basketball player could gain a much greater advantage by increasing spead, reactions, jumping and rehab than other sports where people desire more power.
But isn't that point true in virtually every sport?
When I think of Football and hitting a Baseball I think Strength is one of the best enhancements that PED's can provide you. I don't think its as applicable in basketball because the attributes I just mentioned are probably more desirable than strength. I mean Rashard Lewis never really struck me as being jacked, but he is the one that got caught.
IIRC Rashard Lewis said he had bought an OTC supplement back in 2006 that he didn't know contained banned substances. People generally bought that explanation. I'm not sure you can use him as a template for PED abuse.
David Ortiz said the same thing, thats what they all say
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I suspect that there's widespread use of HGH and similar drugs in the four major sports.
Anthony Davis on draft day .....
(http://timekeepingscore.files.wordpress.com/2012/07/147514226.jpg?w=600&h=400&crop=1)
Anthony Davis 4 months later.....
(http://c-product.images.dreamsretail.com/77-21/77-21963-F.jpg)
(http://a.espncdn.com/photo/2012/1004/nba_u_davis11sc_288v.jpg)
(http://www.slamonline.com/online/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/anthony_davis.jpg)
things that make you go hmmmm :o
See here is where the PED's argument hits a wall for me.
Tell me why a kid like Davis, consensus #1 overall pick, on a rebuilding team with honestly very low expectations this season, and coming off of a career year, would take PED's between draft day and the beginning of the season?
He's got a guaranteed contract. He's already the #1 pick. He has literally everything to lose by getting caught and very, very, little to gain.
It is exponentially more likely that he got a nutritional adviser and a personal trainer and worked hard.
very little to gain? How about a max contract? He is on a rookie contract for his first 4 or 5 years . I just don't see how someone can get that much bigger and cut in such a little amount of time .
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I suspect that there's widespread use of HGH and similar drugs in the four major sports.
Anthony Davis on draft day .....
(http://timekeepingscore.files.wordpress.com/2012/07/147514226.jpg?w=600&h=400&crop=1)
Anthony Davis 4 months later.....
(http://c-product.images.dreamsretail.com/77-21/77-21963-F.jpg)
(http://a.espncdn.com/photo/2012/1004/nba_u_davis11sc_288v.jpg)
(http://www.slamonline.com/online/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/anthony_davis.jpg)
things that make you go hmmmm :o
See here is where the PED's argument hits a wall for me.
Tell me why a kid like Davis, consensus #1 overall pick, on a rebuilding team with honestly very low expectations this season, and coming off of a career year, would take PED's between draft day and the beginning of the season?
He's got a guaranteed contract. He's already the #1 pick. He has literally everything to lose by getting caught and very, very, little to gain.
It is exponentially more likely that he got a nutritional adviser and a personal trainer and worked hard.
The NBA doesn't test for HGH, right?
What's the risk if there's a 0% chance you'll test dirty? (I'm not saying Davis is or isn't using, but the "what does he have to gain" argument doesn't make much sense when there's little to no chance he or anybody else would ever be caught.)
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http://www.cbssports.com/nba/story/15093944/wades-denial-of-peds-in-nba-hardly-believable
Decent article on the topic. Could we get the refs some of those PED's that enhance eyesight?
I thought the article rather well...dumb. The article, summed up in less than 20 words: "Other sports denied all knowledge before they got busted. Wade denied all knowledge. Basketball is a sport."
It's your typical fence-sitter, no substance, waste of space article.
I disagree, I mean if you were hoping it would have inside information on steroids in basketball than ya, you were let down. But reinforcing the point that muscles isnt the only barometer of PED's is important. A basketball player could gain a much greater advantage by increasing spead, reactions, jumping and rehab than other sports where people desire more power.
But isn't that point true in virtually every sport?
When I think of Football and hitting a Baseball I think Strength is one of the best enhancements that PED's can provide you. I don't think its as applicable in basketball because the attributes I just mentioned are probably more desirable than strength. I mean Rashard Lewis never really struck me as being jacked, but he is the one that got caught.
IIRC Rashard Lewis said he had bought an OTC supplement back in 2006 that he didn't know contained banned substances. People generally bought that explanation. I'm not sure you can use him as a template for PED abuse.
David Ortiz said the same thing, thats what they all say
That doesn't mean Shard was habitually using HGH with full knowledge of what he was doing.
And to build towards a bigger point, Ray Ratto's article was dumb, and didn't bring anything new or insightful to the table, and he's got a stupid face. So there.
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I suspect that there's widespread use of HGH and similar drugs in the four major sports.
Anthony Davis on draft day .....
(http://timekeepingscore.files.wordpress.com/2012/07/147514226.jpg?w=600&h=400&crop=1)
Anthony Davis 4 months later.....
(http://c-product.images.dreamsretail.com/77-21/77-21963-F.jpg)
(http://a.espncdn.com/photo/2012/1004/nba_u_davis11sc_288v.jpg)
(http://www.slamonline.com/online/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/anthony_davis.jpg)
things that make you go hmmmm :o
See here is where the PED's argument hits a wall for me.
Tell me why a kid like Davis, consensus #1 overall pick, on a rebuilding team with honestly very low expectations this season, and coming off of a career year, would take PED's between draft day and the beginning of the season?
He's got a guaranteed contract. He's already the #1 pick. He has literally everything to lose by getting caught and very, very, little to gain.
It is exponentially more likely that he got a nutritional adviser and a personal trainer and worked hard.
very little to gain? How about a max contract? He is on a rookie contract for his first 4 or 5 years . I just don't see how someone can get that much bigger and cut in such a little amount of time .
(http://blackgirlsguidetoweightloss.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/Photoshop.jpg)
I did p90x and got ripped in 3 months, and I have a full time job. Anthony Davis has all the money, resources, and time to get ripped in 4 months. Plus a lot of those pictures get a little photoshopped, especially from an ESPN or SLAM photo shoot. Ever see this? Not that hard to look great for a photo shoot:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M957dACQyfU
If anything we should worry about him seemingly changing color in every photo. Does he have Michael Jackson disease or is he Zartan?
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http://www.cbssports.com/nba/story/15093944/wades-denial-of-peds-in-nba-hardly-believable
Decent article on the topic. Could we get the refs some of those PED's that enhance eyesight?
I thought the article rather well...dumb. The article, summed up in less than 20 words: "Other sports denied all knowledge before they got busted. Wade denied all knowledge. Basketball is a sport."
It's your typical fence-sitter, no substance, waste of space article.
I disagree, I mean if you were hoping it would have inside information on steroids in basketball than ya, you were let down. But reinforcing the point that muscles isnt the only barometer of PED's is important. A basketball player could gain a much greater advantage by increasing spead, reactions, jumping and rehab than other sports where people desire more power.
But isn't that point true in virtually every sport?
When I think of Football and hitting a Baseball I think Strength is one of the best enhancements that PED's can provide you. I don't think its as applicable in basketball because the attributes I just mentioned are probably more desirable than strength. I mean Rashard Lewis never really struck me as being jacked, but he is the one that got caught.
IIRC Rashard Lewis said he had bought an OTC supplement back in 2006 that he didn't know contained banned substances. People generally bought that explanation. I'm not sure you can use him as a template for PED abuse.
David Ortiz said the same thing, thats what they all say
That doesn't mean Shard was habitually using HGH with full knowledge of what he was doing.
And to build towards a bigger point, Ray Ratto's article was dumb, and didn't bring anything new or insightful to the table, and he's got a stupid face. So there.
He does have a stupid face. But something that is insightful was brought to the table. I think a 19 year old like anthony davis who is a supserb athlete once on a Pro training regiment should add bulk to his frame. I don't see anything I wouldnt expect in those pictures. Ratto made that point yet some people here think its a telltale sign of steroid use.
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I'm sure HGH is widely used in most sports. I would say advances in sports science is the biggest reason for extending a players career now days.
If you don't know about the cryotheraphy check this out.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jNS1evhiwyI
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But something that is insightful was brought to the table. I think a 19 year old like anthony davis who is a supserb athlete once on a Pro training regiment should add bulk to his frame. I don't see anything I wouldnt expect in those pictures. Ratto made that point yet some people here think its a telltale sign of steroid use.
I agree, A. Davis is a bad example for the reasons you mention.
D. Howard, Artest, N. Robinson, Lebron...those guys make me wonder.
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That whole cryo thing...I know there are guys that swear by it, but are there any scientific studies showing it works?
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Improved conditioning is one logical reason. Normal "9 to 5" human beings could never spend enough time working out and eating right to be in as good a shape as pro athletes.
Improved "legal" supplements and medical procedures are another. Kobe, KG, Nash and a host of others would probably already be retired if not for improvements in this area. Remember the Phoenix Suns' cryosauna? Everyone is correct that Bird probably would have played until he was 40 if he played in today's era.
But, any fan who truly believes that there is no use of "illegal" substances in any sport is naive.
Grown men (and women) in athletic endeavors will do whatever they have to do to give themselves an advantage. It's a shame. It's also human nature.
The NBA's drug testing is a joke. There is NO HGH Testing Program as of yet (as far as I have read). The NBA just began off-season drug testing for steroids this past off-season. But, steroids really wouldn't do a NBA player much good. HGH and other illegal substances (elevated testosterone) could do a great deal of good for quickly repairing muscles and building that lean strength.
Saying that one league would learn from MLB's mistake is incorrect. It took baseball seemingly forever to admit what was going on, and then the players' union still fought increased testing. The NFL has widespread use of illegal substances, but guys get through that testing all the time. Rarely is anyone publicly punished.
I wish they'd start testing every player every two weeks, through an independent agency, and all results would be public.
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I'm sure there are some NBA players taking HGH, because it is easily available to people with money, there is no testing, and hey, it might help. Getting caught would stink, but not getting that huge contract would stink more.
That said, does anyone who follow Euroleague know what the testing situation is over there, and if players fail with any regularity? The Olympics actually has real testing, and I can't think of a basketball player, NBA or otherwise, who's failed one of those tests. It's possible that basketball players might truly benefit less from PED's.
And not to cast suspicion on anyone who doesn't deserve it, but if Greg Oden takes this year off and comes back healthy, I'm going to wonder. The best argument for HGH is the restorative abilities, and if anyone needs a magical elixir, it's Oden.
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The Olympics actually has real testing, and I can't think of a basketball player, NBA or otherwise, who's failed one of those tests.
A side note about Olympic testing.
Grant Hill said in the '96 Olympic nobody wanted to be the leading scorer, because it was the leading scorer who got tested, and getting tested was a pain in the butt. (http://olympics.yardbarker.com/blog/olympics/article/grant_hill_1996_us_basketball_team_players_avoided_being_leading_scorer_because_of_drug_testing/11308390) So I don't know how much Olympic testing has changed in the 16 years since, but it could be not that many basketball players are getting tested, especially if they're only testing one player per team, and maybe even just on teams that won a medal or even just the gold.
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I'm not impressed with those Davis pics. He looks about the same. Everybody is going to look a little scrawnier if they lift their shoulders and elbows up like Davis in that first pic.
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The Olympics actually has real testing, and I can't think of a basketball player, NBA or otherwise, who's failed one of those tests.
A side note about Olympic testing.
Grant Hill said in the '96 Olympic nobody wanted to be the leading scorer, because it was the leading scorer who got tested, and getting tested was a pain in the butt. (http://olympics.yardbarker.com/blog/olympics/article/grant_hill_1996_us_basketball_team_players_avoided_being_leading_scorer_because_of_drug_testing/11308390) So I don't know how much Olympic testing has changed in the 16 years since, but it could be not that many basketball players are getting tested, especially if they're only testing one player per team, and maybe even just on teams that won a medal or even just the gold.
I think everyone gets tested at some point, it's just the lead scorer who gets spot-tested after than the game.
Important to note the leading scorer in every game gets tested, not the leading scorer overall. That's a lot of guys over the years without a whiff of shady results. If they're using PEDs, they're either ahead of the much stricter Olympic curve, or they're not taking them around the Games.
EDIT: Pretty sure the Olympics stores samples too, so they can retroactively test them if they develop a better test later.
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The Olympics actually has real testing, and I can't think of a basketball player, NBA or otherwise, who's failed one of those tests.
A side note about Olympic testing.
Grant Hill said in the '96 Olympic nobody wanted to be the leading scorer, because it was the leading scorer who got tested, and getting tested was a pain in the butt. (http://olympics.yardbarker.com/blog/olympics/article/grant_hill_1996_us_basketball_team_players_avoided_being_leading_scorer_because_of_drug_testing/11308390) So I don't know how much Olympic testing has changed in the 16 years since, but it could be not that many basketball players are getting tested, especially if they're only testing one player per team, and maybe even just on teams that won a medal or even just the gold.
I think everyone gets tested at some point, it's just the lead scorer who gets spot-tested after than game.
Important to note the leading scorer in every game gets tested, not the leading scorer overall. That's a lot of guys over the years without a whiff of shady results. If they're using PEDs, they're either ahead of the much stricter Olympic curve, or they're not taking them around the Games.
EDIT: Pretty sure the Olympics stores samples too, so they can retroactively test them if they develop a better test later.
Ah, that would make sense.
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One thing that sticks out to me is these miracle type recoveries. Like when Jerry Rice came back from ACL surgery to play in the same season at the age of like 33. Does that happen in the general population? If it's happening in the general population then maybe it's medical advances. But if only pro athletes are doing it then that is a red flag to me.
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The Olympics actually has real testing, and I can't think of a basketball player, NBA or otherwise, who's failed one of those tests.
A side note about Olympic testing.
Grant Hill said in the '96 Olympic nobody wanted to be the leading scorer, because it was the leading scorer who got tested, and getting tested was a pain in the butt. (http://olympics.yardbarker.com/blog/olympics/article/grant_hill_1996_us_basketball_team_players_avoided_being_leading_scorer_because_of_drug_testing/11308390) So I don't know how much Olympic testing has changed in the 16 years since, but it could be not that many basketball players are getting tested, especially if they're only testing one player per team, and maybe even just on teams that won a medal or even just the gold.
I think everyone gets tested at some point, it's just the lead scorer who gets spot-tested after than game.
Important to note the leading scorer in every game gets tested, not the leading scorer overall. That's a lot of guys over the years without a whiff of shady results. If they're using PEDs, they're either ahead of the much stricter Olympic curve, or they're not taking them around the Games.
EDIT: Pretty sure the Olympics stores samples too, so they can retroactively test them if they develop a better test later.
Ah, that would make sense.
Furthermore, FIBA tests at Olympic qualifying tournaments, as well as World Championships. 100 players were tested at the 2010 worlds, and zero came back positive. If players who are in those tournaments are doping, they would need to be on a regimen that avoids both whatever in-season testing their league requires, as well as the international tournaments.
Again, I'd be shocked if there was no one using PED's, because the reward is certainly there, but at the same time it should be noted that those players who have experienced real testing have always come up clean (except for Orien Greene, who got caught using someone else's pee to avoid what was probably pot testing while playing in the Netherlands.)
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Nobody getting caught wouldn't shock me though. It makes me wonder if there are other things that don't get caught. I think we as fans are always a generation behind. I thought that deer horn thing was pretty weird for example
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Nobody getting caught wouldn't shock me though. It makes me wonder if there are other things that don't get caught. I think we as fans are always a generation behind. I thought that deer horn thing was pretty weird for example
It would shock me if no one got caught who was using. Dick Pound likes to yell and scream a lot, but he's been very aggressive as the head of WADA for over a decade, and absolutely loves catching dopers. I'm sure NBA players who come into his purview have a target on their backs.
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I've suspected LeBron and Dwight to be HGH users for years.
I still think there's a pretty good chance that I'm right about it.
The only problem with testing it in the NBA, is that particularly with younger players, what exactly should be the level of Human Grown Hormone in players that are a) still growing (still possible with younger players) and b) are unusually tall people who may have wacky hormonal stuff going on anyway. I mean even someone like Paul Pierce is still considered to be very tall as far as the average human goes, and he's only 6-7.
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Ppl, there's no true test for HGH, if the person using it isn't a fool.
When a person gets an HGH injection, the substance is rapidly absorbed, resulting in a release of Insulin Growth Factors(IGFs), which affects tissue growth/re-generation.
One does not need continuous injections to make IGFs routinely available; two HGHs shot a week is fine, and then in the following day, the HGH residue is gone from the blood stream and it's not seen in the urine test anyways.
Then, during the remaining 4-5 days, a persons needs to simply ingest some 4-5 grams of Amino Acids like Ornithine and Arginine on an empty stomach, to keep the pulsatile secretion of growth hormone going, to maintain a steady-state amount of re-generation during the week.
Thus, if the blood syringe drug test isn't scheduled around the time of injection, it's virtually undetectable. Thus, combining a simple vitamin regimen, with two weekly HGH injections, could make for a flawless recuperation system.
On the other hand, normal PEDs, like anabolic steroids, leaves a signature for a long time. Those are easy to spot and easy to get busted for whereas HGH is a natural substance, found in the pituitary gland and thus, getting busted takes a series of entrapment schemes.
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I bet some players are on hgh and don't even realize it...
Also think more guys are worried about getting caught with weed.
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I think that anything that is legal for the general public should be legal for pro athletes. If there's a legal and safe drug or hormone that can help players to play longer and recover from injury faster, I have no problem with it being used.
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I think almost everyone here can agree that there is some PED usage in the NBA. No one can say for sure the extent of it but let's just hope no reports start coming out because lets face it, the league is already screwed up enough.
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This seemed relevant:
The cold tub is as alarming as hell, but it has magical restorative properties, which we needed. We had been training so hard we could hardly dribble or lift our arms above our heads.
Leading the recovery session was Corey Stenstrup, a former MLB strength coach with education in nutritional science and exercise biochemistry who seemed to know everything about the workings of the human body. He ran precisely orchestrated workout sessions: only weights but those that served basketball purposes; not just agility, but the kind we'd use in plays we were learning on the court; balance that makes for better jumping, running and pivoting; learning to be strong even while fully extended, for instance when rebounding or blocking a shot. And on and on. It was no wonder his facility was busy with the finest football, tennis and basketball players in the world.
That day on the pool deck, with an evening scrimmage approaching and shot bodies, all minds were attuned to the idea of exercise recovery.
And performance enhancing drugs came up.
One after another, we threw out theories about how of course those didn’t work in basketball. Anabolics would make you too bulky, right? Human growth hormone isn't really all that, is it? Would testosterone make a difference?
We had been told, for years, that steroids wouldn't help in basketball. We covered the sport, knew and liked players, and believed the sport generally to be clean. What's more, to suggest that basketball was dirty, or that there were drug cheats in the sport, was to come pretty close to accusing Stenstrup, a guy NBA players turn to for high-end workout advice, of knowing about it, or worse.
The simple thing would have been for Stenstrup to go along with our theories. We wanted him to reassure us. Our beloved sport, his beloved clientele, all clean and determined to stay that way.
Bless him, though, that Corey Stenstrup. He's a straight shooter.
His words, with just a hint of annoyance at our ignorance, cut the air -- and the (crap)
"Guys," he announced, "all that stuff helps."
Instantly, I felt like an idiot for having ever thought otherwise.
The warm, snuggly conviction that basketball was a magical part of sports that would be forever above that mess, that was all over. We were plunging into a cold reality.
Literally. Here we were in line, desperate to freeze ourselves in a tub, just to inspire a tiny amount of cellular movement that would make us a little fresher for that night's session.
Meanwhile, that cellular activity, that recovery, could be coerced much more forcefully with pharmaceuticals. Similarly, the weights we'd been lifting -- we could lift more. The running could be done faster. PEDs are known to help in running, jumping, lifting and recovering. Some say human growth hormone can even help your eyesight. It's hard to find elements of basketball training where they wouldn't have the potential to make better players.
Looking back on the conversation years later, Stenstrup sees the irony. He is for rigorous testing and not only advises his clients against all PEDs but also about all medicines, artificial sweeteners, colors, preservatives and even nonorganic or cooked food.
But that day, even Stenstrup was surprised at our naivete. How had we been fooled? And if Stenstrup knew all that stuff worked, who else knew? Why wouldn’t players know?
Stenstrup did not tell us that the NBA was full of dopers, or anything like it. But he sure dumped cold water on the whole "wouldn't help in the NBA" theory.
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So. Tim Duncan. He's 36. Kinda amazing what he's doing, isn't it?
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So. Tim Duncan. He's 36. Kinda amazing what he's doing, isn't it?
It is. Although, he is also a guy who uses his skills more than athleticism at this point.
But your point is well taken. I agree that HGH (or whatever the drug of choice) is extending careers that used to be over much earlier. But I also think the lack of fundamentals has counteracted that a lot, which is why I don't really agree that the league has more talent than it has in the past.
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I don't know. It's possible it's just advances in treatment and training. I heard it said that if a guy like LeBron or Dwight took HGH... it was probably in high school.
Kinda off topic and totally not relevant... but is everyone aware that Anabolic steroids are a key part of treatment for HIV patients? Technically speaking, Magic Johnson was probably the first confirmed steroid user in the NBA... during his short-lived 1995 comeback as "Buff" Johnson where he played power forward:
(http://cdn.bleacherreport.net/images_root/slides/photos/001/081/918/360070_crop_650x440.jpg?1310249704)
I'm just sayin... OBVIOUSLY nobody cares, but it's true, right?
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I am honestly extremely surprised at the amount of people in this thread, that I consider very bright and intelligent people, who think just modern medicine and modern dietary and training techniques are the reason we see super cut and muscular NBA players on just about every NBA team.
PED use is rampant in all major professional sports and also "amateur" sports like track and field and Olympic events.
The NBA has one of the least stringent PED tests in professional sports anywhere in the world.
The NBA definitely has lots of people on PEDs, many stars included. It's just not going to become an issue because people don't want it to be one. But once the International Anti Doping Agency starts making a bigger and bigger stink about some of the PED testing in American sports, it will become an issue and I think we will see a change in the looks of some players and the quickness with which they return from injury.
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So. Tim Duncan. He's 36. Kinda amazing what he's doing, isn't it?
It is. Although, he is also a guy who uses his skills more than athleticism at this point.
But your point is well taken. I agree that HGH (or whatever the drug of choice) is extending careers that used to be over much earlier. But I also think the lack of fundamentals has counteracted that a lot, which is why I don't really agree that the league has more talent than it has in the past.
Because advancements in the understanding and science of sports medicine and nutrition have nothing to do with that.
I don't buy the conspiracy theory, and I love the way my tinfoil hat fits.
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I am honestly extremely surprised at the amount of people in this thread, that I consider very bright and intelligent people, who think just modern medicine and modern dietary and training techniques are the reason we see super cut and muscular NBA players on just about every NBA team.
PED use is rampant in all major professional sports and also "amateur" sports like track and field and Olympic events.
The NBA has one of the least stringent PED tests in professional sports anywhere in the world.
The NBA definitely has lots of people on PEDs, many stars included. It's just not going to become an issue because people don't want it to be one. But once the International Anti Doping Agency starts making a bigger and bigger stink about some of the PED testing in American sports, it will become an issue and I think we will see a change in the looks of some players and the quickness with which they return from injury.
If it's true, i hope the crackdown on PEDs happens after KG retires. The guy is beasting for us at his age... still our most valuable player. Without the big man, we aren't going anywhere in the playoffs this year.
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So. Tim Duncan. He's 36. Kinda amazing what he's doing, isn't it?
It is. Although, he is also a guy who uses his skills more than athleticism at this point.
But your point is well taken. I agree that HGH (or whatever the drug of choice) is extending careers that used to be over much earlier. But I also think the lack of fundamentals has counteracted that a lot, which is why I don't really agree that the league has more talent than it has in the past.
Because advancements in the understanding and science of sports medicine and nutrition have nothing to do with that.
I don't buy the conspiracy theory, and I love the way my tinfoil hat fits.
I don't even consider it a conspiracy theory. I think of it as common sense.
They don't test for HGH. There is not much evidence (at least so far) that HGH is actually bad for you. HGH helps you recover from injuries faster, and can possibly make you stronger and faster (that part I have seen disputed). Why wouldn't these guys be taking it?
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So. Tim Duncan. He's 36. Kinda amazing what he's doing, isn't it?
It is. Although, he is also a guy who uses his skills more than athleticism at this point.
But your point is well taken. I agree that HGH (or whatever the drug of choice) is extending careers that used to be over much earlier. But I also think the lack of fundamentals has counteracted that a lot, which is why I don't really agree that the league has more talent than it has in the past.
Because advancements in the understanding and science of sports medicine and nutrition have nothing to do with that.
I don't buy the conspiracy theory, and I love the way my tinfoil hat fits.
I don't even consider it a conspiracy theory. I think of it as common sense.
They don't test for HGH. There is not much evidence (at least so far) that HGH is actually bad for you. HGH helps you recover from injuries faster, and can possibly make you stronger and faster (that part I have seen disputed). Why wouldn't these guys be taking it?
TP...Exactly. If I have millions riding on my body and I know I can invest a few thousand a year on HGH and I know the league doesn't test for HGH, it makes no sense not to be taking it.
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So. Tim Duncan. He's 36. Kinda amazing what he's doing, isn't it?
It is. Although, he is also a guy who uses his skills more than athleticism at this point.
But your point is well taken. I agree that HGH (or whatever the drug of choice) is extending careers that used to be over much earlier. But I also think the lack of fundamentals has counteracted that a lot, which is why I don't really agree that the league has more talent than it has in the past.
Because advancements in the understanding and science of sports medicine and nutrition have nothing to do with that.
I don't buy the conspiracy theory, and I love the way my tinfoil hat fits.
I don't even consider it a conspiracy theory. I think of it as common sense.
They don't test for HGH. There is not much evidence (at least so far) that HGH is actually bad for you. HGH helps you recover from injuries faster, and can possibly make you stronger and faster (that part I have seen disputed). Why wouldn't these guys be taking it?
I don't think you can place the extended career boom on just taking HGH. That's my bone of contention.
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So. Tim Duncan. He's 36. Kinda amazing what he's doing, isn't it?
It is. Although, he is also a guy who uses his skills more than athleticism at this point.
But your point is well taken. I agree that HGH (or whatever the drug of choice) is extending careers that used to be over much earlier. But I also think the lack of fundamentals has counteracted that a lot, which is why I don't really agree that the league has more talent than it has in the past.
Because advancements in the understanding and science of sports medicine and nutrition have nothing to do with that.
I don't buy the conspiracy theory, and I love the way my tinfoil hat fits.
I don't even consider it a conspiracy theory. I think of it as common sense.
They don't test for HGH. There is not much evidence (at least so far) that HGH is actually bad for you. HGH helps you recover from injuries faster, and can possibly make you stronger and faster (that part I have seen disputed). Why wouldn't these guys be taking it?
I don't think you can place the extended career boom on just taking HGH. That's my bone of contention.
That's fine. I agree with you. I was just throwing the OP a bone on that. I think it at least has something to do with it. But there are certainly other factors.
Still though, my main contention here is that the increased athleticism we are seeing is not necessarily translating into more or better basketball players.
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I do believe though that the quickness that athletes return from massive injuries and the former strength they recover is probably directly related to HGH use.
Kobe went overseas for "platelet replacement therapy"? Really? Yeah and Tiger Woods got the same therapy on his knee too.
Massive triple knee ligament damage is now less than a year return from injury and when these players return they come back as strong and dynamic as ever? I don't buy it.
Does that throw someone like KG or Tony Allen or some other former C's in with the rest of them? Yup it does.
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Every negative aspect of Magic's return to the NBA has been erased from the official history of the NBA but thankfully not from our memories...
Yes Buff Johnson will live on in our memories but will never be mentioned on broadcast television.
It's funny.
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While I acknowledge that PED's are likely widely used in all 4 major sports, I love the fact that basketball is one of the sports where PED's cannot give an ahtlete a significant edge.
If running fast and jumping high were the only prerequisites for BBall success, Gerald Green would be a Hall of Famer.
Why do you think it is so tough to beat all those old guys at the YMCA who dont miss jump shots and play pesky defense.
Why is it that athletic teams that have no veteran peresence wind up in the lottery of the NBA?
The NBA has escaped alto of criticism for PED use because the integrity of the game is not compromised as much as some other sports.
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While I acknowledge that PED's are likely widely used in all 4 major sports, I love the fact that basketball is one of the sports where PED's cannot give an ahtlete a significant edge.
If running fast and jumping high were the only prerequisites for BBall success, Gerald Green would be a Hall of Famer.
Why do you think it is so tough to beat all those old guys at the YMCA who dont miss jump shots and play pesky defense.
Why is it that athletic teams that have no veteran peresence wind up in the lottery of the NBA?
The NBA has escaped alto of criticism for PED use because the integrity of the game is not compromised as much as some other sports.
Last year's finals featured a team with guys in their upper 20s vs a team with guys in their lower 20s.
Teams with no vet presence are usually teams of guys that need to "bulk up".
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So uh Jerry Stackhouse. He's 38. He played 20 mins tonight. A bunch of young and jacked guys are injured. Right D Wade? Right Bynum? Kind of a strange year we're having
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Wow. Jason Kidd. 39 years old shooting 57%. Grizzled vet right there. They're managing his minutes only giving him 22 mins per night. Do you think him, Sheed (38), Camby (38), and Kurt Thomas (40) all get their nutrition together at the early bird special and get a groupon discount at the local geriatric exercise clinic? I mean since guys are staying in the league longer now due to advancements in nutrition and stuff?
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Yeah there is no doubt innky mind that hgh and to a lesser extent steroids are widely used in the NBA.
Kind of surprised this doesn't get brought up ever in the media.
Wonder how long they can turn a blind eye to it.
Right now its kind of out of sight out of mind but it still sucks knowing that they don't consider it an issue. I'm sure Stern would just blame it on some rogue steroid user anyway and just sweep it under the rug
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If you ain't cheating, you ain't trying.
When star players can get $60+ million contracts, and journeymen types can snag MLE deals worth $30m or more, the incentive is certainly there to use PEDs.
I'm totally convinced that LeBron used HGH, just as I'm convinced that Michael Jordan, who was skinny with a full head of hair when he won a gold medal in 1984, and muscular and bald four years later, used steroids. He came out of a college rife with steroid users, especially in the football program, in an era when college athletic departments were chemistry labs.
The "OTC supplement" excuse for guys who get caught doesn't was with me either. Since Rashard Lewis got caught, his career nosedived.
I don't care if pro athletes use PEDs. I like to watch sports and athletes who can perform at the highest level possible. I do care if they use them and lie about it. Baseball was a better game when over-muscled comic book characters were slamming home runs at a wild pace.
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I am honestly extremely surprised at the amount of people in this thread, that I consider very bright and intelligent people, who think just modern medicine and modern dietary and training techniques are the reason we see super cut and muscular NBA players on just about every NBA team.
PED use is rampant in all major professional sports and also "amateur" sports like track and field and Olympic events.
The NBA has one of the least stringent PED tests in professional sports anywhere in the world.
The NBA definitely has lots of people on PEDs, many stars included. It's just not going to become an issue because people don't want it to be one. But once the International Anti Doping Agency starts making a bigger and bigger stink about some of the PED testing in American sports, it will become an issue and I think we will see a change in the looks of some players and the quickness with which they return from injury.
If it's true, i hope the crackdown on PEDs happens after KG retires. The guy is beasting for us at his age... still our most valuable player. Without the big man, we aren't going anywhere in the playoffs this year.
Yeah a skinny twig who can play 5 minute spurts has ped written all over it
Hes our most valuable because hes our only good tall player...he gets dominated just about every night. This is not Tim Duncan. In 2009 we almost made the conference finals without kg. He made it out of the first round one time as a non Celtic and we would go further without him then we would without rondo...which isn't far. We have 2 mvps drop the schtick
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I am honestly extremely surprised at the amount of people in this thread, that I consider very bright and intelligent people, who think just modern medicine and modern dietary and training techniques are the reason we see super cut and muscular NBA players on just about every NBA team.
PED use is rampant in all major professional sports and also "amateur" sports like track and field and Olympic events.
The NBA has one of the least stringent PED tests in professional sports anywhere in the world.
The NBA definitely has lots of people on PEDs, many stars included. It's just not going to become an issue because people don't want it to be one. But once the International Anti Doping Agency starts making a bigger and bigger stink about some of the PED testing in American sports, it will become an issue and I think we will see a change in the looks of some players and the quickness with which they return from injury.
If it's true, i hope the crackdown on PEDs happens after KG retires. The guy is beasting for us at his age... still our most valuable player. Without the big man, we aren't going anywhere in the playoffs this year.
Yeah a skinny twig who can play 5 minute spurts has ped written all over it
Hes our most valuable because hes our only good tall player...he gets dominated just about every night. This is not Tim Duncan. In 2009 we almost made the conference finals without kg. He made it out of the first round one time as a non Celtic and we would go further without him then we would without rondo...which isn't far. We have 2 mvps drop the schtick
Dominated every night? I think you are mistaken. Sorry I can't respond to some of that nonsense.
But if someone wanted to speculate about KG and hgh its not too far fetched. He had almost a career ending injury at an advanced and just look at him last year. Everyone noticed a huge change. I think peoples thoughts were hgh, contract year, or KG and the team just playing lights out.
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Quick....pop quiz....how many seasons has Al Harrington (and Rashard Lewis) been in the league? This will be their 16th. They're 33 and 34. Do you think maybe the league has a little too much talent in it, and that maybe it's due to HGH and PEDs? Folks they were drafted in the last century. And KG makes them look like babies. The players entering the league in the next year or two WERE NOT BORN when KG was drafted. The top players in the 2015 draft weren't even conceived!
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Rule of thumb: If you don't blame it on Rondo, you blame it on HGH.
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Simply put: I doubt I have more knowledge of this than DRose, so I do believe there's some truth to what he says.
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It's a big possibility. I wouldn't rule it out at all
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The fact is that until the NBA has a comprehensive and transparent testing system in place, it is likely that a number of players (stars included) are taking advantage of illegal substances to help increase or maintain their level of play.
It is naive to assume NBA players are ignoring substances that baseball players, football players, track and field stars, olympians, and even golfers are using.
And, the testing system in the NBA is a joke. Players are warned ahead of time about tests. Didn't Lance Armstrong prove that any athlete in the world could cheat the testing system even when tests were random??? NBA players know the tests are coming. Of course they can find ways around testing positive. Also, HGH has never been tested, and that is one of the main forms of cheating that is probably taking place. Most NBA players don't need anabolic steroids, but HGH and other hormonal and blood doping is right up the NBA athlete's alley.
Lame excuses about dieticians and physical trainers were around in every other sport where excessive cheating has been uncovered. Is overall general health and athleticism up? Yes. But, does it negate the possibility that players are cheating? No. So, let's get some comprehensive and transparent testing.
For things to change, two things have to happen:
1) Fans and/or the media get behind comprehensive and transparent testing (with substantial punishment). Articles are written. Petitions are sent to NBA and team headquarters. Demand has to be that the game is clean. We saw this in MLB.
2) Players get behind comprehensive and transparent testing (with substantial punishment). It took a decade, but we're finally seeing this in MLB.
Personally, as a fan of the game of basketball (and baseball), I want a clean game, and I want cheaters banned for life. That's just me.
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Just make PEDs legal, so whoever wants to take it can. What's the use of technological advancement in science and medicine if humans can't take advantage of it??
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Duped again. Lebron' s cranium is growing because he's prepping himself for a role in Tarantino' s "From Dusk Til Dawn 2"
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Duped again. Lebron' s cranium is growing because he's prepping himself for a role in Tarantino' s "From Dusk Til Dawn 2"
Aw. Halfway through that line I thought I was looking at a Coneheads reference :(
Also, wouldn't that be, like, "From Dusk 'till Dawn 18" by now? (no really, they've got like 3 or 4?)
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There are likely a lot of guys using, but I'm one of those people who doesn't really care. I just want to be entertained.
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Duped again. Lebron' s cranium is growing because he's prepping himself for a role in Tarantino' s "From Dusk Til Dawn 2"
Aw. Halfway through that line I thought I was looking at a Coneheads reference :(
Also, wouldn't that be, like, "From Dusk 'till Dawn 18" by now? (no really, they've got like 3 or 4?)
I was actually thinking about the sequel possibility on my way to work yesterday. I only saw the first one, but I seem to recall there being some crappy follow ups too.
Too lazy to look on imdb
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Duped again. Lebron' s cranium is growing because he's prepping himself for a role in Tarantino' s "From Dusk Til Dawn 2"
Aw. Halfway through that line I thought I was looking at a Coneheads reference :(
Also, wouldn't that be, like, "From Dusk 'till Dawn 18" by now? (no really, they've got like 3 or 4?)
I was actually thinking about the sequel possibility on my way to work yesterday. I only saw the first one, but I seem to recall there being some crappy follow ups too.
Too lazy to look on imdb
So was I, and too lazy to look through my DVD's too, as I'm sure I have at least 2 of them.
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I think peds are a major problem in the NBA
Ridiculous to make them legal. It would essentially be forcing every player to have to use them in order to level out the playing field
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There are likely a lot of guys using, but I'm one of those people who doesn't really care. I just want to be entertained.
TP for an honest opinion. I think that this sentiment is shared by many NBA and NFL fans, and sadly to me, a growing number of MLB fans.
The slippery slope here, for me, of allowing/condoning/"legalizing" PEDs for everyone is the PED floodgates opening for kids in high school. As a current coach and guidance counselor, I see the use (abuse)now. I can't imagine what would happen if PEDs were accepted in the major sports.
Not sure what message that we are sending these kids.
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I think peds are a major problem in the NBA
Ridiculous to make them legal. It would essentially be forcing every player to have to use them in order to level out the playing field
TP....and perhaps every kid in college and in high school.
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I suspect that there's widespread use of HGH and similar drugs in the four major sports.
Bingo.
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I suspect that there's widespread use of HGH and similar drugs in the four major sports.
Anthony Davis on draft day .....
(http://timekeepingscore.files.wordpress.com/2012/07/147514226.jpg?w=600&h=400&crop=1)
Anthony Davis 4 months later.....
(http://c-product.images.dreamsretail.com/77-21/77-21963-F.jpg)
(http://a.espncdn.com/photo/2012/1004/nba_u_davis11sc_288v.jpg)
(http://www.slamonline.com/online/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/anthony_davis.jpg)
things that make you go hmmmm :o
Are there PEDS in the NBA? Yes
Is the Anthony Davis argument ridiculous? Yes!!
He was 6'9 222lbs (very skinny) and 19 when he was drafted. At this young age testosterone levels are high and your body is still developing. You give a teenage hard working athlete a great support staff of trainers and alot can happen in a short time. Plus as skinny as he is 5 lbs of muscle would be noticeable.