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Celtics Basketball => Celtics Talk => Topic started by: Chris on October 09, 2012, 09:55:17 AM

Title: The last roster spot
Post by: Chris on October 09, 2012, 09:55:17 AM
After just two games (and very brief stints on the floor), it may be too early to write off the two guys fighting for the last spot on the bench (for the purpose of this post, I am going to assume Danny is going to give Joseph a longer look, because he drafted him...but that is by no means a given).

But, I must say, I have been very underwhelmed so far.

First, lets start with Smith.  He looks overwhelmed with the stage, and his skills are not impressive.  He looks like he has Eddie House's ball handling ability, without the outside shot, or anything else for that matter.  I have seen nothing to set him apart from any other D-League player...in fact, I think he would be pretty far down the call-up list.

Now, Christmas is a little different.  He has some intriguing skills.  He has a tenacity that reminds me a bit of Moore.  He is not afraid to take the big shot, and he really plays with a lot of energy.  He also has a decent first step, and is an OK finisher. 

But as I said in another thread, I think Scal had a good call on him.  He is like Tony Allen offensively.  He can do some things with the ball in his hands.  He can drive a bit, and can finish at the hoop.  The problem is, he is not good enough at those things for you to put the ball in his hands over any other players on this team.  And, when he is playing off the ball, he looked completely lost.  His spacing was terrible, he never looked ready to catch and shoot, and he just looked out of place.

That was exactly the same way Allen was, who was at his best offensively when he was playing on essentially a D-league team in Boston, and then he really made the leap, when he was completely cut out of the offense in Memphis, and basically only touched the ball on hustle plays and fast breaks...which worked, because he was such a dominant defender.

But Christmas does not seem to be anything more than an average defender (if even that).  So, basically, he has no use on this team. 

So, at this (admittedly premature) time, I am ready to cut ties on both of these guys, and see if there is someone else who might fill that spot better.  Thoughts?
Title: Re: The last roster spot
Post by: wdleehi on October 09, 2012, 10:05:39 AM
I still think Joseph has the best chance.


His two strengths are off the ball.  Defense and a respectable outside shot. 
Title: Re: The last roster spot
Post by: mgent on October 09, 2012, 10:11:55 AM
This is what I've been saying for a week or two now.  Only having 3 healthy guards on the roster is an issue, no matter what blind believers say.  Especially when only one of those guys is an actual PG and is responsible for at least 36 minutes a night.  I personally am not comfortable with either of these undrafted rookies filling that void if need be.

Having a 4th guard with experience is more important than going into the season with THREE projects (if you don't count Sullinger).



Edit:  I also think it's funny that Smith said after the first game that he considered getting the ball across half court an accomplishment.  E'Twawn's confidence was on such another level compared to him.  That's what you need from your PG, I see this kid causing tons of TOs.
Title: Re: The last roster spot
Post by: Mencius on October 09, 2012, 10:13:07 AM
I could cut ties with Smith now, too.  He's strictly D-league talent, imo.  If they are just selecting from the training camp roster, then I'd say Christmas and Joseph stick.

If, however, there's a chance they bring in another PG (my preference), then it's between Xmas and Joseph for the last spot.  Christmas has shown more than Joseph in summer league and so far in preseason.  That could all change with one strong game from Joseph, since we're talking about such small sample sizes so far.  Guess it would depend on whether Doc thinks Lee/Christmas can give him spot minutes at the 3 if need be, or whether he opts for Joseph's greater size.
Title: Re: The last roster spot
Post by: fairweatherfan on October 09, 2012, 10:21:11 AM
Does anyone know when the official cutdown day is? 

I'd like to see Joseph get a shot.  Haven't watched much of the other guys but XMas seems like a better fit.  Not counting on much from either though, and I'd like us to pick up a veteran at some point during the year, so flip a coin on that one. 
Title: Re: The last roster spot
Post by: aporel#18 on October 09, 2012, 10:46:59 AM
Smith's contract is guaranteed until november 15. He won't make the roster, and they'll try to get him to play for the Rock Lobsters.

Joseph is a project, and he'll probably be sent down to D-League alongside Melo. But he'll make the 15 men roster.

Xmas has a chance because of Avery's injury, he's insurance while Avery is out. He'll make the team and probably will get some minutes, but I don't know if there's a timeline where his contract becomes fully guaranteed. If so, he and Collins will own the last roster spots. By waiving one of them Danny could still sign someone for the vet min without exceeding the apron, I think. Anyway, I find it hard to believe Danny will find a free agent who can contribute. But what do I know.
Title: Re: The last roster spot
Post by: CelticHooligan3 on October 09, 2012, 10:51:18 AM
Collins is worse than advertised. How he's on this team is mind blowing to me. If there is any minutes behind Wilcox, Sullinger, and Milicic i'd like to see Fabulous get them over Collins.

I was shocked by how immobile he was. He was late on almost every rotation and defense is supposed to be his bread and butter. Let's be real here he wasn't brought to this team for his offense at all. So to see him struggle defensively was very frustrating.

Please, if anyone saw anything positive in his play let me know because right now im very depressed he has a spot on this team. Maybe someone has seen something i've missed but he seems like a guy that is a complete waste of a roster spot. Can anyone help me see the light?
Title: Re: The last roster spot
Post by: wdleehi on October 09, 2012, 11:02:32 AM
Collins is worse than advertised. How he's on this team is mind blowing to me. If there is any minutes behind Wilcox, Sullinger, and Milicic i'd like to see Fabulous get them over Collins.

I was shocked by how immobile he was. He was late on almost every rotation and defense is supposed to be his bread and butter. Let's be real here he wasn't brought to this team for his offense at all. So to see him struggle defensively was very frustrating.

Please, if anyone saw anything positive in his play let me know because right now im very depressed he has a spot on this team. Maybe someone has seen something i've missed but he seems like a guy that is a complete waste of a roster spot. Can anyone help me see the light?


He is still a strong one on one defender down low. 

He has a role on this team, but the role is not needed against every team. 


Title: Re: The last roster spot
Post by: Chris on October 09, 2012, 11:06:46 AM
Collins is worse than advertised. How he's on this team is mind blowing to me. If there is any minutes behind Wilcox, Sullinger, and Milicic i'd like to see Fabulous get them over Collins.

I was shocked by how immobile he was. He was late on almost every rotation and defense is supposed to be his bread and butter. Let's be real here he wasn't brought to this team for his offense at all. So to see him struggle defensively was very frustrating.

Please, if anyone saw anything positive in his play let me know because right now im very depressed he has a spot on this team. Maybe someone has seen something i've missed but he seems like a guy that is a complete waste of a roster spot. Can anyone help me see the light?


He is still a strong one on one defender down low. 

He has a role on this team, but the role is not needed against every team.

Exactly.  He is really only going to be useful against a handful of teams.  But he should be very valuable in those situations. 
Title: Re: The last roster spot
Post by: Chris on October 09, 2012, 11:07:27 AM
Collins is worse than advertised. How he's on this team is mind blowing to me. If there is any minutes behind Wilcox, Sullinger, and Milicic i'd like to see Fabulous get them over Collins.

I was shocked by how immobile he was. He was late on almost every rotation and defense is supposed to be his bread and butter. Let's be real here he wasn't brought to this team for his offense at all. So to see him struggle defensively was very frustrating.

Please, if anyone saw anything positive in his play let me know because right now im very depressed he has a spot on this team. Maybe someone has seen something i've missed but he seems like a guy that is a complete waste of a roster spot. Can anyone help me see the light?


He is still a strong one on one defender down low. 

He has a role on this team, but the role is not needed against every team.

Exactly.  He is really only going to be useful against a handful of teams.  But he should be very valuable in those situations. 

...As for Melo, he is a LONG ways away from being anywhere close to ready.  You can see the talent, but he has no clue what he is doing.
Title: Re: The last roster spot
Post by: BudweiserCeltic on October 09, 2012, 11:11:33 AM
I'm not going to worry much about Christmas' defense. He seemed to me like he's willing to put the work. Hard to evaluate when you're playing alongside a lot of people who are not defensive minded, nor have learned the defensive schemes.

The only real way to evaluate his impact effectively will be to playing with our 1st and 2nd units, and see how he fits with them.

And I don't like the Tony Allen comparison all told. Christmas has much better handle and can actually shoot the ball, and seems to have a higher IQ (which is not hard to do). Also, Tony Allen is simply one of the best perimeter defenders in the league, so that he's not Tony Allen defensively doesn't say much to me on that regard either.

In all Christmas is the type of multi-faceted player the Celtics can use, and I don't see any other options that can fill that role better than him... one roster spot, but able to fill a variety of roles when called upon.
Title: Re: The last roster spot
Post by: CelticHooligan3 on October 09, 2012, 11:12:34 AM
Collins is worse than advertised. How he's on this team is mind blowing to me. If there is any minutes behind Wilcox, Sullinger, and Milicic i'd like to see Fabulous get them over Collins.

I was shocked by how immobile he was. He was late on almost every rotation and defense is supposed to be his bread and butter. Let's be real here he wasn't brought to this team for his offense at all. So to see him struggle defensively was very frustrating.

Please, if anyone saw anything positive in his play let me know because right now im very depressed he has a spot on this team. Maybe someone has seen something i've missed but he seems like a guy that is a complete waste of a roster spot. Can anyone help me see the light?


He is still a strong one on one defender down low. 

He has a role on this team, but the role is not needed against every team.


So i hear..

But getting burned by euro stiffs didn't give me great feelings. At this point i see him as 6 fouls to Bynum and Howard. But with so many other bigs i'd rather see the young guys get his minutes.

Were you not surprised even a little by his lack of mobility and late reactions on rotations?

I'm searching for positives but my eyes don't deceive me. I saw a guy who danny brought in as a contingency plan but who now is very replaceable with Milicic here and Wilcox being healthy (hopefully).

Wouldn't you rather see garbage minutes go to Fabulous and keep him around the club to learn from the vets?
Title: Re: The last roster spot
Post by: Chris on October 09, 2012, 11:14:06 AM
I'm not going to worry much about Christmas' defense. He seemed to me like he's willing to put the work. Hard to evaluate when you're playing alongside a lot of people who are not defensive minded, nor have learned the defensive schemes.


I only brought up the defense, in the sense that if his off the ball offense is not a net positive (which it hasn't been so far), then he needs to make up for it defensively.  Which means he needs to be well above average.  Which he hasn't shown.
Title: Re: The last roster spot
Post by: BudweiserCeltic on October 09, 2012, 11:17:41 AM
I'm not going to worry much about Christmas' defense. He seemed to me like he's willing to put the work. Hard to evaluate when you're playing alongside a lot of people who are not defensive minded, nor have learned the defensive schemes.


I only brought up the defense, in the sense that if his off the ball offense is not a net positive (which it hasn't been so far), then he needs to make up for it defensively.  Which means he needs to be well above average.  Which he hasn't shown.

But again, with who is he playing on the floor? What schemes is Doc using? What instructions has he given? I can only go by the skill sets he shown to have, that he's not showing much off the ball playing alongside guys like Rob Kurz, Micah Downs, Jamar Smith (who was a disaster with the ball in his hands)... then I don't know how much we can evaluate on that regard as it pertains offensive schemes and his execution on roles within that scheme.
Title: Re: The last roster spot
Post by: Chris on October 09, 2012, 11:21:19 AM
I'm not going to worry much about Christmas' defense. He seemed to me like he's willing to put the work. Hard to evaluate when you're playing alongside a lot of people who are not defensive minded, nor have learned the defensive schemes.


I only brought up the defense, in the sense that if his off the ball offense is not a net positive (which it hasn't been so far), then he needs to make up for it defensively.  Which means he needs to be well above average.  Which he hasn't shown.

But again, with who is he playing on the floor? What schemes is Doc using? What instructions has he given? I can only go by the skill sets he shown to have, that he's not showing much off the ball playing alongside guys like Rob Kurz, Micah Downs, Jamar Smith (who was a disaster with the ball in his hands)... then I don't know how much we can evaluate on that regard as it pertains offensive schemes and his execution on roles within that scheme.

Well, I will also go by the fact that he has yet to play on an NBA roster (or if he has, not for long). 

I am going into this with a strong bias that he is not a quality NBA player.  And so far, what I have seen has corroborated that.
Title: Re: The last roster spot
Post by: BudweiserCeltic on October 09, 2012, 11:28:19 AM
I'm not going to worry much about Christmas' defense. He seemed to me like he's willing to put the work. Hard to evaluate when you're playing alongside a lot of people who are not defensive minded, nor have learned the defensive schemes.


I only brought up the defense, in the sense that if his off the ball offense is not a net positive (which it hasn't been so far), then he needs to make up for it defensively.  Which means he needs to be well above average.  Which he hasn't shown.

But again, with who is he playing on the floor? What schemes is Doc using? What instructions has he given? I can only go by the skill sets he shown to have, that he's not showing much off the ball playing alongside guys like Rob Kurz, Micah Downs, Jamar Smith (who was a disaster with the ball in his hands)... then I don't know how much we can evaluate on that regard as it pertains offensive schemes and his execution on roles within that scheme.

Well, I will also go by the fact that he has yet to play on an NBA roster (or if he has, not for long). 

I am going into this with a strong bias that he is not a quality NBA player.  And so far, what I have seen has corroborated that.

And I'm more than fine with having doubts about him being an NBA player, I have them myself. I just can't put much stock in evaluating a player in situations that aren't remotely representative of what he'll be asked to do and with whom he'll be asked to do it.

What I see is a big guard, who can handle the ball, can play the pick and roll, can push the ball, can go to the basket, can play 3 positions, can spread the floor, and seems willing to put the work and seems to have determination to get it done.

Will he perform well? Not sure myself, I'd like to see him more game-like situations and go from there to see how he fits in our defensive/offensive schemes. Else, what we're seeing is just an extension of the Summer League.

But as it is, and the role I envision him playing considering our roster make-up, I don't see many options out there, and not seeing someone better than him.
Title: Re: The last roster spot
Post by: mctyson on October 09, 2012, 11:44:10 AM
This decision is probably going to come down to what our needs are, rather than who is a better talent.

We do not need Jamar Smith.  He was brought in for preseason and camp depth at the PG spot.  Players like him are a dime a dozen, and if we need him during the season because of injury you could grab him easily.

XMas fills a minor need while AB is hurt.  He gives us some of the same toughness and defensive minded ability AB gives us.  When AB comes back XMas will never see the court.

Joseph, to my mind, fills a much more pressing need.  If we lose Pierce or Green, we have only one true SF on the roster.  Lee can move over, but that is a really small wing in today's NBA. 

So I'd rank them Joseph > Xmas > Smith based on need.  I think Xmas is the best player right now of the three.

Title: Re: The last roster spot
Post by: BudweiserCeltic on October 09, 2012, 11:48:20 AM
What I'd like to see is Doc sit Jamar Smith once and for all. I don't know why they're still evaluating him to the extent they're doing.
Title: Re: The last roster spot
Post by: saltlover on October 09, 2012, 12:03:14 PM
What I'd like to see is Doc sit Jamar Smith once and for all. I don't know why they're still evaluating him to the extent they're doing.

Because of all the rookies the Celtics have in camp, he's the one who's best at point guard.  Doesn't mean he's NBA-ready there, but Doc wants to see if he can get it enough to be an emergency option.  Even if he doesn't make the team out of camp, he'll be sent to Maine and be available in case of emergency during the season, so it's best if he gets ready now.  It's not like we need Rondo to play 40 minutes in preseason games, other than it's fun to watch Rondo play.

Also, it's nice to show Joseph and Christmas that they have competition for those last roster spots.  No need to let those two coast.
Title: Re: The last roster spot
Post by: Chris on October 09, 2012, 12:09:05 PM
What I'd like to see is Doc sit Jamar Smith once and for all. I don't know why they're still evaluating him to the extent they're doing.

Well, it's been 2 games.  But, I would like to see them give Christmas at least a shot to handle the ball.  I think we have seen enough of Smith.  But I think Christmas needs a bit more of a look, to see if he can be the "break in case of emergency" combo guard.  I have my doubts, but might as well take a look.
Title: Re: The last roster spot
Post by: LooseCannon on October 09, 2012, 12:40:08 PM
Having a 4th guard with experience is more important than going into the season with THREE projects (if you don't count Sullinger).

It is possible to have a 4th guard who is neither experienced nor a project.
Title: Re: The last roster spot
Post by: erisred on October 09, 2012, 06:42:24 PM
Collins is worse than advertised. How he's on this team is mind blowing to me. If there is any minutes behind Wilcox, Sullinger, and Milicic i'd like to see Fabulous get them over Collins.

I was shocked by how immobile he was. He was late on almost every rotation and defense is supposed to be his bread and butter. Let's be real here he wasn't brought to this team for his offense at all. So to see him struggle defensively was very frustrating.

Please, if anyone saw anything positive in his play let me know because right now im very depressed he has a spot on this team. Maybe someone has seen something i've missed but he seems like a guy that is a complete waste of a roster spot. Can anyone help me see the light?


He is still a strong one on one defender down low. 

He has a role on this team, but the role is not needed against every team.

Exactly.  He is really only going to be useful against a handful of teams.  But he should be very valuable in those situations.
Collins is there to throw his body into Bynum and Howard...and maybe Chandler and Cousins...and that's it. Six hard fouls on a handful of big centers. Otherwise, he sits on the bench, probably in street clothes, and cheers.
Title: Re: The last roster spot
Post by: CelticHooligan3 on October 09, 2012, 06:57:40 PM
Collins is worse than advertised. How he's on this team is mind blowing to me. If there is any minutes behind Wilcox, Sullinger, and Milicic i'd like to see Fabulous get them over Collins.

I was shocked by how immobile he was. He was late on almost every rotation and defense is supposed to be his bread and butter. Let's be real here he wasn't brought to this team for his offense at all. So to see him struggle defensively was very frustrating.

Please, if anyone saw anything positive in his play let me know because right now im very depressed he has a spot on this team. Maybe someone has seen something i've missed but he seems like a guy that is a complete waste of a roster spot. Can anyone help me see the light?


He is still a strong one on one defender down low. 

He has a role on this team, but the role is not needed against every team.

Exactly.  He is really only going to be useful against a handful of teams.  But he should be very valuable in those situations.
Collins is there to throw his body into Bynum and Howard...and maybe Chandler and Cousins...and that's it. Six hard fouls on a handful of big centers. Otherwise, he sits on the bench, probably in street clothes, and cheers.



I see this as well. And i know this is pretty much nit picking at this point but wouldn't we be better suited to use Fab in this role instead of Collins?

It frees up an extra roster spot we can use for a guard and it's not like were asking too much out of Fab. In my mind any time he can get on the floor as a rook is a bonus, and all he has to do is foul hard. Why couldn't he fill that role? It's not rocket science.

I think keeping him around the vets is important for his long term growth. If he can fill Collins minutes it may go a long way in terms of his confidence. He clearly has a ton to learn from what i saw in his first preseason games but i think sending him up to Maine might be a setback in his development.

Just my two cents though..
Title: Re: The last roster spot
Post by: BudweiserCeltic on October 09, 2012, 07:09:59 PM
What I'd like to see is Doc sit Jamar Smith once and for all. I don't know why they're still evaluating him to the extent they're doing.

Because of all the rookies the Celtics have in camp, he's the one who's best at point guard.  Doesn't mean he's NBA-ready there, but Doc wants to see if he can get it enough to be an emergency option.  Even if he doesn't make the team out of camp, he'll be sent to Maine and be available in case of emergency during the season, so it's best if he gets ready now.  It's not like we need Rondo to play 40 minutes in preseason games, other than it's fun to watch Rondo play.

Also, it's nice to show Joseph and Christmas that they have competition for those last roster spots.  No need to let those two coast.

Other than Smith is taking the bulk of the minutes, minutes that should be used to evaluate Christmas and Joseph who have been the clear favorites to take those last roster spots. Instead, Smith has seen extensive time in these two games, and he just doesn't look to be able to play the part.

So it's time to move on. I'm all for showing they have competition, but not at the expense of barely giving them any chance to properly evaluate them.

First game, Smith 12 minutes... Joseph only 5 minutes, and Christmas 7 minutes. I didn't manage to watch much of this game, but I bet Smith took over PG role when he was on the floor over Christmas.

Second game, Smith 12 minutes.... Joseph only 7 minutes and Christmas 9 minutes. Once again, Smith taking over PG duties where he sucked, and was later take off those duties in favor of Christmas who was better there.

In 9 minutes, he went 4-6, grabbed 4 rebounds with 1 TO and 9 points. Certainly something to build on. But certainly, needs more evaluation to see if he has what it takes for this role, and giving Smith the amount of opportunity he's been given so far is doing no one any favors as far as I'm concerned.


What I'd like to see is Doc sit Jamar Smith once and for all. I don't know why they're still evaluating him to the extent they're doing.

Well, it's been 2 games.  But, I would like to see them give Christmas at least a shot to handle the ball.  I think we have seen enough of Smith.  But I think Christmas needs a bit more of a look, to see if he can be the "break in case of emergency" combo guard.  I have my doubts, but might as well take a look.

That's all I'm asking, else all we're doing is speculating upon factors that have little bearing. I can only say that I really like his skill set and how it seems to fit with what we could need, but don't have anything to go on more than that.
Title: Re: The last roster spot
Post by: BudweiserCeltic on October 09, 2012, 07:12:26 PM
Having a 4th guard with experience is more important than going into the season with THREE projects (if you don't count Sullinger).

It is possible to have a 4th guard who is neither experienced nor a project.

You mean, like Lee/Bradley? Or are we talking about our potential 5th guard?
Title: Re: The last roster spot
Post by: billysan on October 09, 2012, 08:43:54 PM
Collins is worse than advertised. How he's on this team is mind blowing to me. If there is any minutes behind Wilcox, Sullinger, and Milicic i'd like to see Fabulous get them over Collins.

I was shocked by how immobile he was. He was late on almost every rotation and defense is supposed to be his bread and butter. Let's be real here he wasn't brought to this team for his offense at all. So to see him struggle defensively was very frustrating.

Please, if anyone saw anything positive in his play let me know because right now im very depressed he has a spot on this team. Maybe someone has seen something i've missed but he seems like a guy that is a complete waste of a roster spot. Can anyone help me see the light?


He is still a strong one on one defender down low. 

He has a role on this team, but the role is not needed against every team.

Exactly.  He is really only going to be useful against a handful of teams.  But he should be very valuable in those situations.
Collins is there to throw his body into Bynum and Howard...and maybe Chandler and Cousins...and that's it. Six hard fouls on a handful of big centers. Otherwise, he sits on the bench, probably in street clothes, and cheers.

Or Marc Gasol/Randolph, or Monroe/Drummond, or Deandre Jordan/Griffin, or Al Jefferson/ Milsap, etc, etc. I dont get the people that think there are no big men left in the NBA. Even Dallas, Kaman and Nowitski. I could go on but hopefully you get the point.

KG is great at the 5 but Depth is a good thing as we play out this 5 minute thing with him. Collins is also on a guaranteed contract even if it is the minimum. He knows he is jut a warm body, we need him this year as an emergency backup center while Melo develops. Besides, we signed him before we knew we would get Darko.

We need 20 mpg at the 5 spot behind KG. Collins will be part of that number.
Title: Re: The last roster spot
Post by: billysan on October 09, 2012, 09:13:19 PM
We really have 2 available roster spots with 3 serious contenders. Jamar Smith, Dionte Christmas, and Kris Joseph. I do like the other kid, Micah Downs from the small sample size but I doubt he has a shot as we need a guard.

IMHO, Joseph will get a shot and be sent to the D league until probably December on a partial. Christmas will likely win a partial until December as a 4th body at the guard until we see if AB is able to come back.

I would watch the Camp cut list for the next few weeks until the final rosters are set. If a competent PG or combo guard becomes available, Danny will sign him to the minimum and cut one of these. The same scenario will play out at the deadline for guaranteed contracts and at the trade deadline if necessary.
Title: Re: The last roster spot
Post by: Who on October 09, 2012, 10:38:09 PM
Collins is worse than advertised. How he's on this team is mind blowing to me. If there is any minutes behind Wilcox, Sullinger, and Milicic i'd like to see Fabulous get them over Collins.

I was shocked by how immobile he was. He was late on almost every rotation and defense is supposed to be his bread and butter. Let's be real here he wasn't brought to this team for his offense at all. So to see him struggle defensively was very frustrating.

Please, if anyone saw anything positive in his play let me know because right now im very depressed he has a spot on this team. Maybe someone has seen something i've missed but he seems like a guy that is a complete waste of a roster spot. Can anyone help me see the light?


He is still a strong one on one defender down low. 

He has a role on this team, but the role is not needed against every team.

Exactly.  He is really only going to be useful against a handful of teams.  But he should be very valuable in those situations.
Collins is there to throw his body into Bynum and Howard...and maybe Chandler and Cousins...and that's it. Six hard fouls on a handful of big centers. Otherwise, he sits on the bench, probably in street clothes, and cheers.

Or Marc Gasol/Randolph, or Monroe/Drummond, or Deandre Jordan/Griffin, or Al Jefferson/ Milsap, etc, etc. I dont get the people that think there are no big men left in the NBA. Even Dallas, Kaman and Nowitski. I could go on but hopefully you get the point.

KG is great at the 5 but Depth is a good thing as we play out this 5 minute thing with him. Collins is also on a guaranteed contract even if it is the minimum. He knows he is jut a warm body, we need him this year as an emergency backup center while Melo develops. Besides, we signed him before we knew we would get Darko.

We need 20 mpg at the 5 spot behind KG. Collins will be part of that number.

No need to put a stopper like Jason Collins on the floor when the opponent's center is as limited offensively as those names in bold (D.Jordan, T.Chandler, A.Drummond).

Boston will be better off putting extra offense on the floor against those players. They are not strong enough offensively to punish the smaller (weaker) defender. And the added offense boosts Boston's offense + stops their interior defender (say Tyson Chandler) from camping out in the paint and helping freely and often off of someone as limited as Jason Collins (offensively).

A guy like Jason Collins - because of all his weaknesses (mainly offensively, also possession creation) - is only really valuable when he has someone to stop. A quality offensive threat to limit. Without that type of matchup, Boston is better off playing smaller.
Title: Re: The last roster spot
Post by: saltlover on October 10, 2012, 12:07:07 AM
Collins is worse than advertised. How he's on this team is mind blowing to me. If there is any minutes behind Wilcox, Sullinger, and Milicic i'd like to see Fabulous get them over Collins.

I was shocked by how immobile he was. He was late on almost every rotation and defense is supposed to be his bread and butter. Let's be real here he wasn't brought to this team for his offense at all. So to see him struggle defensively was very frustrating.

Please, if anyone saw anything positive in his play let me know because right now im very depressed he has a spot on this team. Maybe someone has seen something i've missed but he seems like a guy that is a complete waste of a roster spot. Can anyone help me see the light?


He is still a strong one on one defender down low. 

He has a role on this team, but the role is not needed against every team.

Exactly.  He is really only going to be useful against a handful of teams.  But he should be very valuable in those situations.
Collins is there to throw his body into Bynum and Howard...and maybe Chandler and Cousins...and that's it. Six hard fouls on a handful of big centers. Otherwise, he sits on the bench, probably in street clothes, and cheers.

Or Marc Gasol/Randolph, or Monroe/Drummond, or Deandre Jordan/Griffin, or Al Jefferson/ Milsap, etc, etc. I dont get the people that think there are no big men left in the NBA. Even Dallas, Kaman and Nowitski. I could go on but hopefully you get the point.

KG is great at the 5 but Depth is a good thing as we play out this 5 minute thing with him. Collins is also on a guaranteed contract even if it is the minimum. He knows he is jut a warm body, we need him this year as an emergency backup center while Melo develops. Besides, we signed him before we knew we would get Darko.

We need 20 mpg at the 5 spot behind KG. Collins will be part of that number.

No need to put a stopper like Jason Collins on the floor when the opponent's center is as limited offensively as those names in bold (D.Jordan, T.Chandler, A.Drummond).

Boston will be better off putting extra offense on the floor against those players. They are not strong enough offensively to punish the smaller (weaker) defender. And the added offense boosts Boston's offense + stops their interior defender (say Tyson Chandler) from camping out in the paint and helping freely and often off of someone as limited as Jason Collins (offensively).

A guy like Jason Collins - because of all his weaknesses (mainly offensively, also possession creation) - is only really valuable when he has someone to stop. A quality offensive threat to limit. Without that type of matchup, Boston is better off playing smaller.

I'd argue that Chandler is capable of punishing a smaller defender -- I think his problem is that Anthony might not recognize this.  Also, going too much smaller exposes the defense to offensive rebounds, which has been an Achilles heel for years.

That said, I do not expect Collins to see the floor in most competitive games where KG and Darko are healthy.  Fortunately, I don't think Collins does either, so that won't be a locker room issue.  He knows his role.
Title: Re: The last roster spot
Post by: LooseCannon on October 10, 2012, 01:29:43 AM
Having a 4th guard with experience is more important than going into the season with THREE projects (if you don't count Sullinger).

It is possible to have a 4th guard who is neither experienced nor a project.

You mean, like Lee/Bradley? Or are we talking about our potential 5th guard?

I think we are talking about the 4th guard while Bradley is out.  My idea of a useful player in that role who is neither an experienced NBA veteran nor a project is finding a mature player with NBA talent who failed to catch on in the league but matured overseas (and/or perhaps the D-League) for a few years and is capable of contributing immediately.
Title: Re: The last roster spot
Post by: relja on October 10, 2012, 05:22:19 AM
Having a 4th guard with experience is more important than going into the season with THREE projects (if you don't count Sullinger).

It is possible to have a 4th guard who is neither experienced nor a project.

You mean, like Lee/Bradley? Or are we talking about our potential 5th guard?

I think we are talking about the 4th guard while Bradley is out.  My idea of a useful player in that role who is neither an experienced NBA veteran nor a project is finding a mature player with NBA talent who failed to catch on in the league but matured overseas (and/or perhaps the D-League) for a few years and is capable of contributing immediately.

Iverson? I think, though, he signed for an Israeli team for like 2 games.. Maybe give him a shot?
Title: Re: The last roster spot
Post by: sofutomygaha on October 10, 2012, 11:50:48 AM

It's too bad Bo McCalebb isn't available!!!
Title: Re: The last roster spot
Post by: celticinorlando on October 10, 2012, 12:36:00 PM
think that boston needs to cut them both and bring in a legit back up PG.
Christmas is poor on defense and Smith is not NBA talent

1. Rondo
2. Lee
3. PP
4. Bass
5. KG
6. JET
7. Sully
8. Green
9. Bradley
10. Collins
11. Darko
12. Fab (will most likely be D leagued)
13. Joseph (D-League)
14. Back up PG brought in
15. Wilcox
Title: Re: The last roster spot
Post by: FatjohnReturns on October 10, 2012, 12:59:02 PM
Having a 4th guard with experience is more important than going into the season with THREE projects (if you don't count Sullinger).

It is possible to have a 4th guard who is neither experienced nor a project.

You dont need a fourth guard. Pierce is comfortable bringing the ball up and running the offense if necessary.
Doc could play Pierce at the 2 and go with a bigger lineup which would be better than giving time court time to Christmas,Joseph, or Smith.

With Wilcox health iffy. I would prefer to sign another big.
Title: Re: The last roster spot
Post by: Chris on October 10, 2012, 01:10:10 PM
think that boston needs to cut them both and bring in a legit back up PG.
Christmas is poor on defense and Smith is not NBA talent

1. Rondo
2. Lee
3. PP
4. Bass
5. KG
6. JET
7. Sully
8. Green
9. Bradley
10. Collins
11. Darko
12. Fab (will most likely be D leagued)
13. Joseph (D-League)
14. Back up PG brought in
15. Wilcox

I am guessing they will.  Although I wouldn't hold your breath for it to happen before December or January.  I think they are going to hold out as long as they can, to see if someone good shakes free.  But Xmas will be gone before his contract is guaranteed, to make room for a veteran emergency PG.
Title: Re: The last roster spot
Post by: billysan on October 10, 2012, 08:50:48 PM
Collins is worse than advertised. How he's on this team is mind blowing to me. If there is any minutes behind Wilcox, Sullinger, and Milicic i'd like to see Fabulous get them over Collins.

I was shocked by how immobile he was. He was late on almost every rotation and defense is supposed to be his bread and butter. Let's be real here he wasn't brought to this team for his offense at all. So to see him struggle defensively was very frustrating.

Please, if anyone saw anything positive in his play let me know because right now im very depressed he has a spot on this team. Maybe someone has seen something i've missed but he seems like a guy that is a complete waste of a roster spot. Can anyone help me see the light?


He is still a strong one on one defender down low. 

He has a role on this team, but the role is not needed against every team.

Exactly.  He is really only going to be useful against a handful of teams.  But he should be very valuable in those situations.
Collins is there to throw his body into Bynum and Howard...and maybe Chandler and Cousins...and that's it. Six hard fouls on a handful of big centers. Otherwise, he sits on the bench, probably in street clothes, and cheers.

Or Marc Gasol/Randolph, or Monroe/Drummond, or Deandre Jordan/Griffin, or Al Jefferson/ Milsap, etc, etc. I dont get the people that think there are no big men left in the NBA. Even Dallas, Kaman and Nowitski. I could go on but hopefully you get the point.

KG is great at the 5 but Depth is a good thing as we play out this 5 minute thing with him. Collins is also on a guaranteed contract even if it is the minimum. He knows he is jut a warm body, we need him this year as an emergency backup center while Melo develops. Besides, we signed him before we knew we would get Darko.

We need 20 mpg at the 5 spot behind KG. Collins will be part of that number.

No need to put a stopper like Jason Collins on the floor when the opponent's center is as limited offensively as those names in bold (D.Jordan, T.Chandler, A.Drummond).

Boston will be better off putting extra offense on the floor against those players. They are not strong enough offensively to punish the smaller (weaker) defender. And the added offense boosts Boston's offense + stops their interior defender (say Tyson Chandler) from camping out in the paint and helping freely and often off of someone as limited as Jason Collins (offensively).

A guy like Jason Collins - because of all his weaknesses (mainly offensively, also possession creation) - is only really valuable when he has someone to stop. A quality offensive threat to limit. Without that type of matchup, Boston is better off playing smaller.

I'd argue that Chandler is capable of punishing a smaller defender -- I think his problem is that Anthony might not recognize this.  Also, going too much smaller exposes the defense to offensive rebounds, which has been an Achilles heel for years.

That said, I do not expect Collins to see the floor in most competitive games where KG and Darko are healthy.  Fortunately, I don't think Collins does either, so that won't be a locker room issue.  He knows his role.

I just dont agree. Example: If we play the Knicks, KG has to match up with Amare when he is on the floor. Otherwise we hope Green can handle him. This leaves Chandler with Bass, Darko or Sullinger. We also have the likelihood of dealing with Camby for a few minutes. As Saltlover said, we will quite possibly get punished by rebounding here.

I think it is likely that we have a lineup of KG with Collins or Darko for a few minutes during these games, especially if Darko gets a couple of fouls. Sullinger and Bass will not cut it in these situations IMHO.

It is likely that we have 15 mpg of Darko and 5 mpg of Collins backing up KG as average numbers accounting for foul trouble and matchups. The small lineup will be used when we can get away with it. The problem is, we have never gotten away with a small lineup that doesnt include KG as our 5.

Who will take that role when KG is on the bench?
Title: Re: The last roster spot
Post by: celticslove on October 13, 2012, 10:36:55 AM
just hope that doc gives preseason playing time to Micah Downs. :) i'm seeing a really poor man's version of AK47 from this video.lol

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bb1oW0XFMos&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bb1oW0XFMos&feature=related)
Title: Re: The last roster spot
Post by: Jon on October 13, 2012, 10:49:32 AM
I'd love to see the Celtics bring back Marquis Daniels. 

Yes, he's not quite lived up to expectations during his time here, but his versatility, defense, and ability to handle DNP-CDs and then step in would be very valuable for this team. 

I really like the idea that he could step in and play tough defense at the 1, 2, or 3 spots at any moment throughout the year, which largely deals with our depth problems at the 1 and 3 spots and would allow use to hold onto to the best of the three young guys (Christmas, Smith, and Joseph) without having to take into account position. 
Title: Re: The last roster spot
Post by: letsgoblue86 on October 13, 2012, 11:02:50 AM
I'd love to see the Celtics bring back Marquis Daniels. 

Yes, he's not quite lived up to expectations during his time here, but his versatility, defense, and ability to handle DNP-CDs and then step in would be very valuable for this team. 

I really like the idea that he could step in and play tough defense at the 1, 2, or 3 spots at any moment throughout the year, which largely deals with our depth problems at the 1 and 3 spots and would allow use to hold onto to the best of the three young guys (Christmas, Smith, and Joseph) without having to take into account position.
Marquis signed with the Bucks, so he's off the table.
Title: Re: The last roster spot
Post by: Jon on October 13, 2012, 11:05:00 AM
I'd love to see the Celtics bring back Marquis Daniels. 

Yes, he's not quite lived up to expectations during his time here, but his versatility, defense, and ability to handle DNP-CDs and then step in would be very valuable for this team. 

I really like the idea that he could step in and play tough defense at the 1, 2, or 3 spots at any moment throughout the year, which largely deals with our depth problems at the 1 and 3 spots and would allow use to hold onto to the best of the three young guys (Christmas, Smith, and Joseph) without having to take into account position.
Marquis signed with the Bucks, so he's off the table.

Oops, must have missed that. 

I would, however, love someone like him, that could step in and provide a steady hand and multiple backcourt positions. 
Title: Re: The last roster spot
Post by: Cman on October 13, 2012, 11:08:57 AM
I'd love to see the Celtics bring back Marquis Daniels. 

Yes, he's not quite lived up to expectations during his time here, but his versatility, defense, and ability to handle DNP-CDs and then step in would be very valuable for this team. 

I really like the idea that he could step in and play tough defense at the 1, 2, or 3 spots at any moment throughout the year, which largely deals with our depth problems at the 1 and 3 spots and would allow use to hold onto to the best of the three young guys (Christmas, Smith, and Joseph) without having to take into account position.
Marquis signed with the Bucks, so he's off the table.

Oh, good for him. I didn't know that.
Title: Re: The last roster spot
Post by: nostar on October 13, 2012, 01:25:06 PM
From all I've heard and the little I've seen I'd give Micah Downs a try at 3rd string SF. I had an idea for trading Bass to get one but I'm certainly on board with him if he's the defender people are claiming he is. I also don't think either Christmas or Smith are ready for NBA play, at least not on this team.

I'd like to see him in a few more preseason games before I give him any guaranteed $ but I'm certainly up for giving a guy with work ethic and defensive skills a try. I bet KG is too :)
Title: Re: The last roster spot
Post by: BudweiserCeltic on October 13, 2012, 01:27:35 PM
From all I've heard and the little I've seen I'd give Micah Downs a try at 3rd string SF. I had an idea for trading Bass to get one but I'm certainly on board with him if he's the defender people are claiming he is. I also don't think either Christmas or Smith are ready for NBA play, at least not on this team.

I'd like to see him in a few more preseason games before I give him any guaranteed $ but I'm certainly up for giving a guy with work ethic and defensive skills a try. I bet KG is too :)

Trade Bass, who'll be either our starting PF or our first big off the bench for a 3rd string SF?

Explain to me how that makes any sort of sense.
Title: Re: The last roster spot
Post by: nostar on October 13, 2012, 02:34:31 PM
Trade Bass, who'll be either our starting PF or our first big off the bench for a 3rd string SF?

Explain to me how that makes any sort of sense.

There are tons of answers to that. Here is my favorite.

If we can move Bass's salary for someone who makes less and has a shorter contract it gives Sullinger the space he needs to grow into an NBA star and if gives us money next year to spend.

It also gives us depth at a place where we don't have it and, as I posted previously, gets rid of some of the overlap we have at PF. I wouldn't trade a dominant PF who has post moves for a 3rd string SF. I would trade a pick and pop guy who can't rebound well when we have 2 other guys who fit that description at his position, albeit maybe not as well. I will miss his FT shooting.

Also in my trade scenario with the Bucks we're trading for a guy who is the same age, a better defender and cheaper. Oh and he plays at a position we aren't 3-4 deep at.

I want to stress that I don't intent to trade Bass for nothing. I think he's a good player. I just think we have at least 2 guys who do most of what he does and some things he doesn't.