CelticsStrong
Celtics Basketball => Celtics Talk => Topic started by: droopdog7 on October 04, 2012, 08:04:39 PM
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Two questions in one; should he and/or will Darko. Sounds crazy, I know. But he is a legit center, and while he isn't a great (of even necessarily good) player, he isn't a complete stiff either. Beyond that, we know KG doesn't love the idea of playing center. Not suggesting he play starters minutes or finish games but putting a bruiser on the first team (and Bass on the second team) may not be the worst idea. .
Okay, now go ahead and bash me.
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I actually don't see this as all that far fetched. He will have to step it up a little from what he has shown (or at least be more consistent) but we are a very good team with KG at PF.
I would be delighted if Darko played well enough to start. Bass is fine but he is really fringe starter in my opinion so he is not a lock by any means.
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I think Darko is a starter on average teams. However, I think I want him off the bench as a change from what KG brings at center on this team... I want other teams to get lulled into our more finesse center (KG), then get knocked out of their shoes by Darko when KG sits. Since KG is doing 5-5-5 then it's really going to put other teams into a whirl! I can't wait!
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I think Darko is best serve on the bench, playing the role of shot blocker when KG rests. (I'm hopeful that Darko proves worthy of a rotation spot and 15-20 minutes of action per game).
But if he outright out plays Bass, and is worthy of more minutes, then bring on the starter role.
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I think starting Darko will give the Celtics a lineup very similar to the one the team had at the start of last season when Jermaine O'Neal was still starting.
The team played much better when they played smaller and got more quickness on the court with Brandon Bass. And then better again when Avery Bradley checked in for Ray Allen.
I think continuing with the quickness instead of size is Boston's best bet.
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I could see Doc starting Collins or Darko ahead of Bass situationally on rare occasions. Like against the Lakers (Pau and Dwight) and Philly (Bynum). Maybe a couple of others. Like Atlanta did with Jason Collins against Orlando.
Short of that, I think Boston should keep Garnett at center and start a PF (Bass) alongside him.
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Unless Darko had a heart and brain transplant over the summer, we are going to be in big trouble if he comes even close to playing starters minutes for us. He has been a dud for close to a decade. And I've gotten to watch plenty of his games while he was with the wolves.
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Aside from Darko's questionable ability, it also doesn't best utilize our talent. I really think that there's a real case to be made for our four most talented big men being KG, Bass, Green, and Sullinger. All of them are truly power forwards (or smaller in Green's case).
Thus, it really doens't make sense to push KG to the 4 spot and take minutes away from those guys.
I think the best case is that Darko improves a bit under KG's tutelage and from Rondo's passing and ends up being a very solid backup center to KG for 20 minutes per night.
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I don't see why Doc would do this since KG has been super effective at 5 and Bass is doing great as our starter 4.
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Unless Darko had a heart and brain transplant over the summer, we are going to be in big trouble if he comes even close to playing starters minutes for us. He has been a dud for close to a decade. And I've gotten to watch plenty of his games while he was with the wolves.
This I can't agree with, Doc won't play someone if it isn't absolutely necessary (and barely even then). If he is the starter there could be a few reasons 1) He is playing very well as a starter (w/ KG) 2) injuries (if KG is out we are in trouble no matter who we start, season will be over if it's a long time he will be out) 3) if Bass goes down. 2 of the 3 reasons I listed will not hurt us the only one that will be horrible for us is if we lose KG... if that's the case, no big available would have made up for that loss! KG is important enough that a guy like Dwight or Bynum would probably be the only savior for us... if it's in terms of championship contender!
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I think starting Darko will give the Celtics a lineup very similar to the one the team had at the start of last season when Jermaine O'Neal was still starting.
The team played much better when they played smaller and got more quickness on the court with Brandon Bass. And then better again when Avery Bradley checked in for Ray Allen.
I think continuing with the quickness instead of size is Boston's best bet.
Agree with this unless Darko proves he is in good enough shape to run the floor. I think Darko will bang inside or at least try as well as any big we have. The problem is whether he can show the quickness we need from our first unit.
If Darko is limited in his time on the court by matchups because he cant run and jump (read athleticism) with starting caliber NBA bigs, then his value to us is limited to playing against other bigs who are also not running the floor.
Darko is not Shaq and therefore not a candidate to start unless he proves he can run a little bit. I would love to see him play a few minutes per game but we have to recognize his limitations.
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If it forces Doc to bring Bass off the bench, I'm all for it. I still think that the wisest move would be to start Wilcox (unless Darko does indeed prove to be the better option).
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Oh hell no!!!
Darko is barely a rotation worthy talent, much less starting material.
Darko is injury insurance, rookie not developing fast enough insurance and a situational sub. And that's how he will be used.
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I am starting to get really nervous about Darko. Because, I'm starting to believe its different for him now.
I still think him starting next to KG isis unlikely, but I'm starting to really believe that he will at least be able to give 20 good reserve minutes at the 5, which would spell KG nicely.
My initial opinion after the Darko signing is still what I hope we see:
PF: Bass(25) Sully(15) Green (7)
C: KG (28) Darko/Wilcox mop up the rest
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I am starting to get really nervous about Darko. Because, I'm starting to believe its different for him now.
I still think him starting next to KG isis unlikely, but I'm starting to really believe that he will at least be able to give 20 good reserve minutes at the 5, which would spell KG nicely.
My initial opinion after the Darko signing is still what I hope we see:
PF: Bass(25) Sully(15) Green (7)
C: KG (28) Darko/Wilcox mop up the rest
Agreed and I would add that if Wilcox doesnt get healthy and get back in the rotation soon? Darko and Sullinger may both end up with more minutes than expected in the long run.
C: Garnett 25 mpg Darko 15 mpg Melo/Collins/Sullinger 8 mpg
PF: Bass 30 mpg Sullinger 12 mpg Green 6 mpg
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I just don't understand how so many people are willing to try a rookie who has not played 1min let alone 1 NBA game, the nod as a starter but not a guy who has proven he can get you about 9 and 5 in the NBA... I mean, what was PERK giving that was so much better than that? Yeah, he and KG fit together great defensively but Darko hasn't had that chance... KG makes almost everyone look better next to him (see Perk in OKC)! I hear people say they aren't judging him based off the #2 pick, but I'm doubting that because if you weren't then you wouldn't be saying how horrible he is... no one is saying he is a star but come on now, the guy isn't as bad as a lot of you say either!
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I just don't understand how so many people are willing to try a rookie who has not played 1min let alone 1 NBA game, the nod as a starter but not a guy who has proven he can get you about 9 and 5 in the NBA... I mean, what was PERK giving that was so much better than that? Yeah, he and KG fit together great defensively but Darko hasn't had that chance... KG makes almost everyone look better next to him (see Perk in OKC)! I hear people say they aren't judging him based off the #2 pick, but I'm doubting that because if you weren't then you wouldn't be saying how horrible he is... no one is saying he is a star but come on now, the guy isn't as bad as a lot of you say either!
if melo plays at the same level as darko, melo should get the nod just because his further development will make the team better later on.
I personally hope melo and darko play well enough to move kg to pf, so that kg preserves his health and plays 2 additional years.
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I just don't understand how so many people are willing to try a rookie who has not played 1min let alone 1 NBA game, the nod as a starter but not a guy who has proven he can get you about 9 and 5 in the NBA... I mean, what was PERK giving that was so much better than that? Yeah, he and KG fit together great defensively but Darko hasn't had that chance... KG makes almost everyone look better next to him (see Perk in OKC)! I hear people say they aren't judging him based off the #2 pick, but I'm doubting that because if you weren't then you wouldn't be saying how horrible he is... no one is saying he is a star but come on now, the guy isn't as bad as a lot of you say either!
if melo plays at the same level as darko, melo should get the nod just because his further development will make the team better later on.
I personally hope melo and darko play well enough to move kg to pf, so that kg preserves his health and plays 2 additional years.
This is an interesting comment considering Doc has stated numerous times that KG is a center now precisely because he has speed and quickness advantages now against centers that he didn't have against 4s. It's been him playing as a 5 that's helping him to remain effective enough to play 2 additional years.
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I just don't understand how so many people are willing to try a rookie who has not played 1min let alone 1 NBA game, the nod as a starter but not a guy who has proven he can get you about 9 and 5 in the NBA... I mean, what was PERK giving that was so much better than that? Yeah, he and KG fit together great defensively but Darko hasn't had that chance... KG makes almost everyone look better next to him (see Perk in OKC)! I hear people say they aren't judging him based off the #2 pick, but I'm doubting that because if you weren't then you wouldn't be saying how horrible he is... no one is saying he is a star but come on now, the guy isn't as bad as a lot of you say either!
if melo plays at the same level as darko, melo should get the nod just because his further development will make the team better later on.
I personally hope melo and darko play well enough to move kg to pf, so that kg preserves his health and plays 2 additional years.
Sorry, I was talking about Sully. There has been LITTLE talk about Melo starting (heck, most think he won't sniff the court unless in Maine). Sully on the other hand gets props as if he is second year coming off of ROY! Darko, at this point is better than Sully, I don't care what anyone says! Maybe Sully will be better in the end (maybe this season) but come on now people... wake up!
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I just don't understand how so many people are willing to try a rookie who has not played 1min let alone 1 NBA game, the nod as a starter but not a guy who has proven he can get you about 9 and 5 in the NBA... I mean, what was PERK giving that was so much better than that? Yeah, he and KG fit together great defensively but Darko hasn't had that chance... KG makes almost everyone look better next to him (see Perk in OKC)! I hear people say they aren't judging him based off the #2 pick, but I'm doubting that because if you weren't then you wouldn't be saying how horrible he is... no one is saying he is a star but come on now, the guy isn't as bad as a lot of you say either!
if melo plays at the same level as darko, melo should get the nod just because his further development will make the team better later on.
I personally hope melo and darko play well enough to move kg to pf, so that kg preserves his health and plays 2 additional years.
Sorry, I was talking about Sully. There has been LITTLE talk about Melo starting (heck, most think he won't sniff the court unless in Maine). Sully on the other hand gets props as if he is second year coming off of ROY! Darko, at this point is better than Sully, I don't care what anyone says! Maybe Sully will be better in the end (maybe this season) but come on now people... wake up!
You're basing that on Darko's experience, right? Because, if you're basing that on his play the last few years, I think your concept of the player is a lot different than mine, and that of the fans of the Grizzlies, Knicks, and Timberwolves.
For all Darko's court time, he has likely more question marks about him as Sullinger and his bad back.
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I love Garnett at center. Some - no - most disagree but I feel like it was one of the main reasons he rose from the ashes.
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I love Garnett at center. Some - no - most disagree but I feel like it was one of the main reasons he rose from the ashes.
I don't think people disagree on the basis that he's not effective there. The most logical disagreement is that it's less taxing on his body, so it extends his odds of keeping healthy, which will literally define how well the Cs will fare this season.
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I think starting Darko will give the Celtics a lineup very similar to the one the team had at the start of last season when Jermaine O'Neal was still starting.
The team played much better when they played smaller and got more quickness on the court with Brandon Bass. And then better again when Avery Bradley checked in for Ray Allen.
I think continuing with the quickness instead of size is Boston's best bet.
Yup, and it might just be me but I feel KG at the 5 is good for him and doesn't beat him up health wise. There aren't a lot of big body centers. It's a slower pace look at Duncan it's served him well.
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I love Garnett at center. Some - no - most disagree but I feel like it was one of the main reasons he rose from the ashes.
I don't think people disagree on the basis that he's not effective there. The most logical disagreement is that it's less taxing on his body, so it extends his odds of keeping healthy, which will literally define how well the Cs will fare this season.
My mistake. That is very correct.
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I am starting to get really nervous about Darko. Because, I'm starting to believe its different for him now.
I still think him starting next to KG isis unlikely, but I'm starting to really believe that he will at least be able to give 20 good reserve minutes at the 5, which would spell KG nicely.
My initial opinion after the Darko signing is still what I hope we see:
PF: Bass(25) Sully(15) Green (7)
C: KG (28) Darko/Wilcox mop up the rest
Agreed and I would add that if Wilcox doesnt get healthy and get back in the rotation soon? Darko and Sullinger may both end up with more minutes than expected in the long run.
C: Garnett 25 mpg Darko 15 mpg Melo/Collins/Sullinger 8 mpg
PF: Bass 30 mpg Sullinger 12 mpg Green 6 mpg
In my mind bass gets too many minutes in the proposed.
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I am starting to get really nervous about Darko. Because, I'm starting to believe its different for him now.
I still think him starting next to KG isis unlikely, but I'm starting to really believe that he will at least be able to give 20 good reserve minutes at the 5, which would spell KG nicely.
My initial opinion after the Darko signing is still what I hope we see:
PF: Bass(25) Sully(15) Green (7)
C: KG (28) Darko/Wilcox mop up the rest
Agreed and I would add that if Wilcox doesnt get healthy and get back in the rotation soon? Darko and Sullinger may both end up with more minutes than expected in the long run.
C: Garnett 25 mpg Darko 15 mpg Melo/Collins/Sullinger 8 mpg
PF: Bass 30 mpg Sullinger 12 mpg Green 6 mpg
In my mind bass gets too many minutes in the proposed.
I Ihope he can be decent makes u cringe just thinking Darko is our first big off the bench
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I am starting to get really nervous about Darko. Because, I'm starting to believe its different for him now.
I still think him starting next to KG isis unlikely, but I'm starting to really believe that he will at least be able to give 20 good reserve minutes at the 5, which would spell KG nicely.
My initial opinion after the Darko signing is still what I hope we see:
PF: Bass(25) Sully(15) Green (7)
C: KG (28) Darko/Wilcox mop up the rest
Agreed and I would add that if Wilcox doesnt get healthy and get back in the rotation soon? Darko and Sullinger may both end up with more minutes than expected in the long run.
C: Garnett 25 mpg Darko 15 mpg Melo/Collins/Sullinger 8 mpg
PF: Bass 30 mpg Sullinger 12 mpg Green 6 mpg
In my mind bass gets too many minutes in the proposed.
I Ihope he can be decent makes u cringe just thinking Darko is our first big off the bench
The Celtics' braintrust is making a concerted effort to create a concrete role for Darko that the guy can actually thrive with - shot blocking rebounder who sets picks and plays physical. It doesn't make me cringe at all if he's the first player off the bench if he's doing those things well, and is throwing his huge body around in the paint.
To me, Darko isn't the second pick flop. He's just another of Ainge's Bargain Bigs. I'm willing to give him a chance, despite his horrible career so far. If he thrives here, it will certainly make an 18th title easier than trying to play small all the time.
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Darko and Sulls and the JET R O C K !!!
Celtic ball is back !!
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I love Garnett at center. Some - no - most disagree but I feel like it was one of the main reasons he rose from the ashes.
I don't think people disagree on the basis that he's not effective there. The most logical disagreement is that it's less taxing on his body, so it extends his odds of keeping healthy, which will literally define how well the Cs will fare this season.
I am not sure I follow the logic that playing center is less taxing on KG's body. I know PFs may run a little more but isn't he going to take more banging playing center?
I think we are better overall with KG at PF, so long as we have a decent guy to play C, which we haven't had all that often. The beginning of last season with Shaq comes to mind as an example of us playing well with KG at PF.
So if Darko can step up enough, KG can play more at PF. If Darko doesn't, Green or Bass or Sullinger get the PF minutes and KG can play center. I like the versitility, I just think it is about the players, not which position is more or less taxing on KG.
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I just don't understand how so many people are willing to try a rookie who has not played 1min let alone 1 NBA game, the nod as a starter but not a guy who has proven he can get you about 9 and 5 in the NBA... I mean, what was PERK giving that was so much better than that? Yeah, he and KG fit together great defensively but Darko hasn't had that chance... KG makes almost everyone look better next to him (see Perk in OKC)! I hear people say they aren't judging him based off the #2 pick, but I'm doubting that because if you weren't then you wouldn't be saying how horrible he is... no one is saying he is a star but come on now, the guy isn't as bad as a lot of you say either!
if melo plays at the same level as darko, melo should get the nod just because his further development will make the team better later on.
I personally hope melo and darko play well enough to move kg to pf, so that kg preserves his health and plays 2 additional years.
This is an interesting comment considering Doc has stated numerous times that KG is a center now precisely because he has speed and quickness advantages now against centers that he didn't have against 4s. It's been him playing as a 5 that's helping him to remain effective enough to play 2 additional years.
That's exactly right, KG from now until he hangs it up is a center, and that's that. Doc said it, KG knows it. It allows us to get the most out of what KG is now. It doesn't matter how well Darko or Melo play, KG is the starting center. It doesn't mean we can't have Darko and KG on the floor together during key stretches based on matchups, but they won't be starting together. Also, knowing Doc, it's more likely that we have Pierce and Green together at the 4 and 5 than ever having a lineup with two 7 footers out there together.
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Doc is preparing for Miami. The entire team has their mind on Miami in fact. How do we match up with them? Play small ball
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naw he won't start. At least not at the beginning of the year.
Starting lineup
C - KG
PF - Bass or Green (green looks great thus far)
SF - Pierce
SG - Lee (until bradley comesback)
PG - Rondo
First off the bench
first wave = pf - Bass or Green and g - Terry and Lee
second wave = C - Darko and F - Sullinger
Keep the bench warm
C - Collins/Melo
G - Xmas (will make the team)
F - Joseph
Rivers will have a big headache eventually to mix and match the lineup depending who they play or who is hot and cold
Example you could have a 2nd unit of
C- Sullinger
pf - Green
SF - Lee
SG - Terry
PG - Rondo
or
C - Darko
pf - Wilcox
sf - Pierce
sg - Lee
pg - Terry
Doc needs to trust his bench alot more than he has the few past years and give pp and kg legit resting times. Also you can't play rondo 35 plus minutes so many games anymore
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Doc is preparing for Miami. The entire team has their mind on Miami in fact. How do we match up with them? Play small ball
Matching up with Miami by going small probably isn't going to work. Using size to score on them, and then figuring out how to match up with them at the other end and not getting that size exploited might work, however.
That's why I like Sully as an answer, assuming he will be ready to play at a high level this season. He's big enough to get work done inside, but should be nimble enough to guard guys on the perimeter. he also can become a bit of a banger, providing some paint muscle that the Cs didn't have last season.
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Again, it makes no sense to start Darko. This team has too many talented players who can play power forward in Sullinger, Green, and Bass. All starting Darko does is give them less time.
The far better plan is to start KG at center and if Darko keeps this up when he actually plays against NBA competition, we can be happy that we finally have a quality backup center who can play 20 minutes per night.
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the obsession with pushing KG back to the 4 spot needs to stop. its not happening.
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the obsession with pushing KG back to the 4 spot needs to stop. its not happening.
This. KG gave us an edge at the 5. We're not taking that away even if he's playing out of position.
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It really is simple IMO. If Darko earns a starting spot (not likely) then he starts. I think it is much more likely he is coming off the bench as KG's primary backup at the 5, especially if Wilcox doesnt get healthy soon.
I would much rather see Sullinger (based on recent performance) earn the starting PF slot later this season and push Bass to the bench. Sullinger could likely give us the post play and rebounding next to KG that we need for our starting unit.
Brandon Bass will eventually make a better compliment to Darko (or Wilcox) on the second unit with his jump shot and hustle. He will also be a very effective compliment to Jeff Green, giving our second unit offense another shooter.
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Darko starts when he beats KG out for the spot which is not likely to happen.
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On the 2nd game of a back to back to save some tread on KG?
Sure
Out side of that and injury, no.
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He doesnt move well enough to supplant KG. Start alongside KG? Maybe, doubt it though.