I think it's safe to say that Bass is the incumbent and that Sullinger is going to have to beat him out. With that in mind, I think Sullinger beating out Bass is more complicated than pure talent.
On paper, it seems that Sullinger should beat out Bass. It seems he has a better post game, rebounds better, and also has a good jumper. However, I see three potential roadblocks for Sullinger.
1) Will the Celtics utilize his post game? This is of particular concern if he's playing with the starters. If Sullinger proves that his post game translates to the NBA, that's great. But if Doc isn't going to run many or any plays for him where he gets to showcase it, then it's a wash.
2) Does Sullinger's lack of athleticism at the "4" mitigate the advantages the C's get with KG at the 5? In other words, who guards quick 4s? On top of that, will slow centers now guard Sully instead of KG? And will the C's now lose all the mistmatches they had with KG at the 5? While Bass is hardly Bill Russell, he is fairly quick for a power forward.
3) Can Sullinger thrive as a role player? Bass only excels at two things: hitting the elbow jumper and finishing around the rim. But he's very, very good at those two things. Assuming Sullinger doesn't instantly get featured in the offense, that's what Sullinger might be faced with. By all accounts, he's a good jump shooter. But can he thrive hitting jumpers when he's not a featured part of the offense? Adjusting to being a role player isn't as easy as it looks. Furthermore, can he finish around the rim as well as Bass. While he's clearly more gifted in the post, when Rondo finds him under the basket, we don't need a series of moves, we need a hard dunk.
To complicate all of this, I do think the Sullinger will have to beat out Bass by a significant margin to gain the starting role. If it's just close, I think he stays on the bench. With the new deal Bass signed, it'd hurt his trade value if within a couple of months, he's beaten out by a rookie. I think if the writing on the wall in practice says that Sully deserves to start, Danny will potentially look to package Bass in a larger deal around the deadline.
To wrap up, I really like Sully. When the C's drafted him, I thought Bass's time in Boston was over and I was OK with that. However, I do think that it might be tough for Sully to get major minutes this year when everyone's healthy, particularly since Jeff Green will likely get some PF minutes as well.
Sullinger will likely fight for backup minutes behind Bass.I can't quite see who he's going to fight. Right now, he's the default primary backup to Bass. Which is just fine by me.
Sullinger will likely fight for backup minutes behind Bass.I can't quite see who he's going to fight. Right now, he's the default primary backup to Bass. Which is just fine by me.
Sullinger will likely fight for backup minutes behind Bass.I can't quite see who he's going to fight. Right now, he's the default primary backup to Bass. Which is just fine by me.
'studs dominate summer league.'
I never understand this discussion, at all... Bass is PROVEN with his numbers in the NBA against the most ELITE talents in the world for YEARS, Sully has NOT even ONCE played! Comparing college vs. NBA is too funny... if that was a good thing to use, I can find you hundreds of players that were better than/close to Jordan in college, a lot of whom never translated their game to half of MJ in the NBA. Bass vs. Wilcox may be something but against Sully, it's not time to put them in the same sentence when talking about NBA.This makes sense.
With that said, I love our rookies potential and will be sad if they turn out to be duds (especially Melo, because I think he will be the biggest steal).
I don't think Pierce will be playing 36-38 minutes. As a matter of fact, I won't be surprised to see the team try to hold both him and Garnett to ~28 mpg. This leaves a massive 40 mpg to be filled by backups, plenty of space to fit both Sullinger and Green.Sullinger will likely fight for backup minutes behind Bass.
I'm going to presume that Doc will have Green back up Bass as well, and the team will go "small" on a regular basis (especially to close out games: Rondo-Terry-Pierce-Green-KG). I don't think Ainge singed Green to a $9M/year contract solely to play 10-12 minutes a game behind Pierce.
I don't think people are taking into account the possibility that Bass also improves his game over the offseason. He's coming into the prime of his career and improved substantially in his 1st season in Boston. Continuity could do even more wonders for a guy who has floated around the league thus far in his career.
I will be the first to say that Brandon Bass has earned the Celtics starting PF spot as of now. I think he will be an excellent compliment to KG. Mostly because he is our best option.I don't think people are taking into account the possibility that Bass also improves his game over the offseason. He's coming into the prime of his career and improved substantially in his 1st season in Boston. Continuity could do even more wonders for a guy who has floated around the league thus far in his career.
Did he really improve at all?
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/bassbr01.html
He improved his PPG, but that's because he played 5 more minutes a game.
His points, and rebounds per 36 minutes dropped, his rebounds to a career low, and his points to his lowest since his second year in the league.
Also his TS%, his Win Shares per 48, and his rebounding percentages were all near career lows, despite a pretty consistent Usage rate.
All that adds up to an overall drop in efficiency, combined with an increase in minutes.
Not that he's a bad player or anything, he's a good player, and I'm comfortable with him as a starter. He just didn't seem to improve with the bigger role or increased minutes.
'studs dominate summer league.'Add to that the BBIQ that Sully has and the lack of a good system in summer league hurts his performance. Players that are good at broken plays excel in summer league.
stud scoring guards dominate summer league. Stud big men dont get the ball enough.
Here's some nice Summer League highlights of Sullinger:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tU3-r409iGc
how about sully play a minute of nba bball before we get into these discussions. until he proves himself, bass is better and should play a lot more than sully. we know what bass can doA sensible man would agree and follow that course.
I don't think Pierce will be playing 36-38 minutes. As a matter of fact, I won't be surprised to see the team try to hold both him and Garnett to ~28 mpg. This leaves a massive 40 mpg to be filled by backups, plenty of space to fit both Sullinger and Green.
Small lineups or not, though, I don't see Green ever being a viable primary backup for KG, and I see the remanining 10-12 mpg there as Sullinger's to lose at this point.
I don't think people are taking into account the possibility that Bass also improves his game over the offseason. He's coming into the prime of his career and improved substantially in his 1st season in Boston. Continuity could do even more wonders for a guy who has floated around the league thus far in his career.
Highlights are great but his FG% was abyssmal at times. Don't be fooled by some film of the good things. He does have nice footwork and great hands.
Highlights are great but his FG% was abyssmal at times. Don't be fooled by some film of the good things. He does have nice footwork and great hands.
Sullinger was told to stretch his range and take shots he won't be taking in the regular season. Also, Sullinger was fouled on a lot of his shots. It's a great skill to have, but it hurts FG%.
Sullinger doesn't even need to shoot much to be a major contributor. His game dovetails perfectly with Rondo/Bradley/Pierce/Garnett.
Highlights are great but his FG% was abyssmal at times. Don't be fooled by some film of the good things. He does have nice footwork and great hands.
Sullinger was told to stretch his range and take shots he won't be taking in the regular season. Also, Sullinger was fouled on a lot of his shots. It's a great skill to have, but it hurts FG%.
Sullinger doesn't even need to shoot much to be a major contributor. His game dovetails perfectly with Rondo/Bradley/Pierce/Garnett.
Not sure what you mean by "fouled on a lot of his shots" in terms of it hurting his FG%. If you mean, created contact, should have had a foul called, and thus missed, then yes, that would impact FG%. But any actual foul called that sends him to the line does not count as a FGA, thus has no bearing on his FG%.
Fully agree but I still want to temper my enthusiasm until at least pre-season against real NBA front court defenders.how about sully play a minute of nba bball before we get into these discussions. until he proves himself, bass is better and should play a lot more than sully. we know what bass can doA sensible man would agree and follow that course.
Gotta enjoy the speculation and fantasy that we possibly stole a real live NBA stud in this draft. Sully fills the bill so far. Even though he still has a lot to prove, what's not to love? ;D
Sullinger was told to stretch his range and take shots he won't be taking in the regular season. Also, Sullinger was fouled on a lot of his shots. It's a great skill to have, but it hurts FG%.
This is in my gut feeling
If Sully plays really well this season, the Celtics would no doubt trade Bass mid-season
I'm already all-in on the Sully train, but he's still a rookie. Who was the last rookie to play 25 mpg on a contender? And I don't mean '27 year old euro transplant rookie', I mean legit, honest to goodness less than 22 years old rookie.
Best case scenario, Sully can bring the same amount of success Bass brought us last year. But likeliest scenario, he struggles on defense, stumbles on a rookie wall around February, and takes a year to catchup to NBA speed.
So in the case of Sully vs Bass, I say, 'Yes'.
I'm already all-in on the Sully train, but he's still a rookie. Who was the last rookie to play 25 mpg on a contender? And I don't mean '27 year old euro transplant rookie', I mean legit, honest to goodness less than 22 years old rookie.
Best case scenario, Sully can bring the same amount of success Bass brought us last year. But likeliest scenario, he struggles on defense, stumbles on a rookie wall around February, and takes a year to catchup to NBA speed.
So in the case of Sully vs Bass, I say, 'Yes'.
Kawhi Leonard played 24 a night for San Antonio last year, 27 per game during the playoffs. That's the only one I can think of off the top of my head.
Sullinger is pretty squarely Bass's backup, I just hope very much his minutes don't drop below 15-18 because of Jeff Green taking them at the 4.
Well there's a lot that played on playoff teams/fringe contenders, but I guess Courtney Lee is the other obvious one. Utah was also considered a strong contender in Wesley Matthew's first year, especially before Okur and Kirilenko went down for the playoffs and before they met the eventual champion Lakers.I'm already all-in on the Sully train, but he's still a rookie. Who was the last rookie to play 25 mpg on a contender? And I don't mean '27 year old euro transplant rookie', I mean legit, honest to goodness less than 22 years old rookie.
Best case scenario, Sully can bring the same amount of success Bass brought us last year. But likeliest scenario, he struggles on defense, stumbles on a rookie wall around February, and takes a year to catchup to NBA speed.
So in the case of Sully vs Bass, I say, 'Yes'.
Kawhi Leonard played 24 a night for San Antonio last year, 27 per game during the playoffs. That's the only one I can think of off the top of my head.
That is a very good example to use. Excellent in fact. He is likely the exception to the rule, rather than the disproving proof, but he is a great example.
I don't know if it was ESPN or someone else, but a panel of experts recently said when asked "who is most poised to make 'the difference' next year, some picks KL. def on my fantasy sleeper list.
Sullinger is pretty squarely Bass's backup, I just hope very much his minutes don't drop below 15-18 because of Jeff Green taking them at the 4.
Based on what? The 26 min of glorified exhibition he played the other night? Bass will play around 30 at the 4 and Green is gonna play another 10 at the 4 with smallball so MAYBE Sully gets 8min there.
To me, Sully fits way better than Bass with KG, and Bass fits better with the hulking Darko than wide-bodied Sullinger.I agree with this to the point that Sullinger, based on his play in the exhibition games, appears like he can play very well with the first unit. He seems to like to hang around the basket and wait for passes and rebound.
Bass has already proven that he can not play effectively inside and isn't much or a rebounder. Bass is very good at what he does - shoot open 17 footers. Unfortunately, that's what KG is also good at offensively at the tail end of his career.
Sully will get a ton of cheapie baskets with the starters, along with good offensive rebounding opportunities. Whatever defensive deficiencies he might have as a first year player can be better masked by playing with better players on the first team, including THREE who are at the top defensively for their position, in RR, AB and KG.
Bass will benefit by being the only jump shooting big on the second unit, and will also benefit from playing with a center and SF with great size. I'll take Bass, Darko, Green, Lee and JET as a second unit over any other in the league.
To me, Sully fits way better than Bass with KG, and Bass fits better with the hulking Darko than wide-bodied Sullinger.
To me, Sully fits way better than Bass with KG, and Bass fits better with the hulking Darko than wide-bodied Sullinger.
What if neither Darko nor Collins earn Doc's trust? Who fits better next to Wilcox? Who fits better if Doc plays one of them as the "center" next to Green as the PF in a smallball lineup?
Agreed. Wilcox is nothing special. Was never anything special in his 10 years in the league. He's good for depth but expecting him to play a major role for a contender is a bit of a stretch.To me, Sully fits way better than Bass with KG, and Bass fits better with the hulking Darko than wide-bodied Sullinger.
What if neither Darko nor Collins earn Doc's trust? Who fits better next to Wilcox? Who fits better if Doc plays one of them as the "center" next to Green as the PF in a smallball lineup?
Wilcox is an 11th man type on a good team. Actually, he was an 11th man on a horrible team the year before coming to Boston.
I don't think people are taking into account the possibility that Bass also improves his game over the offseason. He's coming into the prime of his career and improved substantially in his 1st season in Boston. Continuity could do even more wonders for a guy who has floated around the league thus far in his career.
Did he really improve at all?
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/bassbr01.html
He improved his PPG, but that's because he played 5 more minutes a game.
His points, and rebounds per 36 minutes dropped, his rebounds to a career low, and his points to his lowest since his second year in the league.
Also his TS%, his Win Shares per 48, and his rebounding percentages were all near career lows, despite a pretty consistent Usage rate.
All that adds up to an overall drop in efficiency, combined with an increase in minutes.
Not that he's a bad player or anything, he's a good player, and I'm comfortable with him as a starter. He just didn't seem to improve with the bigger role or increased minutes.
I don't think people are taking into account the possibility that Bass also improves his game over the offseason. He's coming into the prime of his career and improved substantially in his 1st season in Boston. Continuity could do even more wonders for a guy who has floated around the league thus far in his career.
Did he really improve at all?
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/bassbr01.html
He improved his PPG, but that's because he played 5 more minutes a game.
His points, and rebounds per 36 minutes dropped, his rebounds to a career low, and his points to his lowest since his second year in the league.
Also his TS%, his Win Shares per 48, and his rebounding percentages were all near career lows, despite a pretty consistent Usage rate.
All that adds up to an overall drop in efficiency, combined with an increase in minutes.
Not that he's a bad player or anything, he's a good player, and I'm comfortable with him as a starter. He just didn't seem to improve with the bigger role or increased minutes.