CelticsStrong
Around the League => The Draft => Topic started by: Tr1boy on June 30, 2012, 10:11:13 PM
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Terrible loss by OS. They were leading in the first half by almost 10 points. It was a big game for Sullinger. Some notes
1. In the first half he was really good. Crashing the boards, making excellent outlet passes from the post, getting to the line and showing that he is a lotto worthy pick
2. As the game wore on, the Kansas centre (who is close to 7 feet with generous length), really neutralized Sullinger. Sullinger was missing shots left and right. Though Sullinger did an effective job against him on the defensive end.
3. Thomas Robinson (#5 pick) was on and off matched up against him and really took it to him on both ends of the court. Clearly had more explosiveness than Sullinger could handle. Though Sullinger had a tremendous block on him with about 3 minutes left
4. Not sure if its Sullingers conditioning or back issue, but after the first half, he was just trucking up and down the court instead of running. On the other hand Robinson seemed to increase his intensity and was running faster
5. I've re watched also Sullinger vs Cincinnati (with no big name front court player). He really killed that team. He had like 22 points, 12 rebounds and when he was not on the court, OS didn't look the same.
6. Watching a few big games vs just highlights , i can understand now , why people are big on the kid and was once considered a top 5 pick. Clears alot of space with his wide body, has long arms to grab rebounds and help score tip ins, has an array of crafty ways to score, rarely made dumb mistakes on the court, can feel out double teams and passed the ball well. The two bad is (clearly easy to identify after Kansas game) is that he has to include more mid range jumpers in his game instead of either banging in a shot from the post or shooting long range shots. I mean he is an excellent FT shooter. 2nd as everyone already knows, his conditioning has to get better. Even though he may permanently have a small back issue, at least with optimal conditioning, it will bother him less. All in all , this was a very promising pick. A value pick. His lack of dominance vs Kansas and conditioning issues could actually be a blessing in disguise
I will also re watch some Syracuse games soon and post an analysis of Melo and Joseph.
Lastly still a little bummed of not drafting Royce White i got myself a hold of Kentucky vs Iowa State game. Even though White was impressive at some parts of the game, unlike Sullinger he still has ways to go. Even though Sullinger was trucking up and down the court, he never stopped moving. White on the other hand, just plain at times looked lazy out there on both ends of the court. Especially on defence, he was late on the rotation on numerous occasions. When his team mates got beat off the dribble and he had a chance to help out, he almost never did. Not sure if its the coaches problem but bottom line is White should of been more willing to play harder. Not stating i would of not been happy if we drafted him, but Sullinger for now looks like he will have more influence/impact.
Same goes vs Terrence Jones. They should nickname him "ghost". He did nothing important for Kentucky outside of scoring a few pretty points. Totally nothing like Davis , MKG, Teague and Lamb. Glad he didn't fall to us and i'm not sure what Mchale and Rockets org was thinking.
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thanks for the analysis. tp for your efforts.
hope you enjoy watching the other games. :)
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Osu had two legit outside shooters last year in Buford and Thomas. Neither could make a shot when the double and triple team came on sully. Also played against a legit seven footer in that game. He was really out of position
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Osu had two legit outside shooters last year in Buford and Thomas. Neither could make a shot when the double and triple team came on sully. Also played against a legit seven footer in that game. He was really out of position
I agree. But also the issue was Sullinger couldn't get some big baskets when OS needed it. He is the #1 go to guy after all. About 10 of his shots were makeable and looked good from release but the didn't go in. I'm sure you can agree he should of stopped trying to force shots in as he usually does and instead stick some mid range jumpers from about the key. Thats why i think Danny also mentioned after the picks that Sullinger may lack some length to handle nba pf/c but has a jumper to help him out. He really has to nail this aspect for his offense if he has any chance to be an effective player in the nba
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Sully has to improve the midrange game. Didn't really show it much at ohio state. He will need it now. Did he force shots? Sure...Thomas had to sit early with fouls and Buford was MIA...sully had to take some of those shots. Osu didn't have a lot of consistent outside shooting last season.
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Would have been really interesting in hindsight had Melo not been suspended and Sullinger and Melo were playing against each other in the garden.
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I have to disagree with your assessment of Cincinnati's front court. Yancy Gates runs 6'9" 260 and was a borderline 2nd round draft prospect.
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I have to disagree with your assessment of Cincinnati's front court. Yancy Gates runs 6'9" 260 and was a borderline 2nd round draft prospect.
Not a bad front court guy but he is no Thomas Robinson.
Sullinger = usually take adv of guys who are either ranked lower than him or smaller in stature.
But against taller players who he will face in the nba more or potential all stars like Robinson is who he has to excel against
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I have to disagree with your assessment of Cincinnati's front court. Yancy Gates runs 6'9" 260 and was a borderline 2nd round draft prospect.
Not a bad front court guy but he is no Thomas Robinson.
Sullinger = usually take adv of guys who are either ranked lower than him or smaller in stature.
But against taller players who he will face in the nba more or potential all stars like Robinson is who he has to excel against
well, there aren't a lot of 7 foot 4s in the NBA. he's 6'9, and will be going up against a lot of 6'8-6'10 players. granted, he might need to improve his athleticism (which i'm sure he will - big difference between training in college vs. the pros), but he isn't going to be at a height disadvantage like, say, BBD at the 4 and 5.
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Osu had two legit outside shooters last year in Buford and Thomas. Neither could make a shot when the double and triple team came on sully. Also played against a legit seven footer in that game. He was really out of position
I agree. But also the issue was Sullinger couldn't get some big baskets when OS needed it. He is the #1 go to guy after all. About 10 of his shots were makeable and looked good from release but the didn't go in. I'm sure you can agree he should of stopped trying to force shots in as he usually does and instead stick some mid range jumpers from about the key. Thats why i think Danny also mentioned after the picks that Sullinger may lack some length to handle nba pf/c but has a jumper to help him out. He really has to nail this aspect for his offense if he has any chance to be an effective player in the nba
I'm not sure what you're saying here. If most of his misses were makeable and looked good from release but the didn't go in then is it really the case that he struggled against his bigger opponent?
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Osu had two legit outside shooters last year in Buford and Thomas. Neither could make a shot when the double and triple team came on sully. Also played against a legit seven footer in that game. He was really out of position
I agree. But also the issue was Sullinger couldn't get some big baskets when OS needed it. He is the #1 go to guy after all. About 10 of his shots were makeable and looked good from release but the didn't go in. I'm sure you can agree he should of stopped trying to force shots in as he usually does and instead stick some mid range jumpers from about the key. Thats why i think Danny also mentioned after the picks that Sullinger may lack some length to handle nba pf/c but has a jumper to help him out. He really has to nail this aspect for his offense if he has any chance to be an effective player in the nba
I'm not sure what you're saying here. If most of his misses were makeable and looked good from release but the didn't go in then is it really the case that he struggled against his bigger opponent?
Its hard to say, if it was just one of those bad days where nothing goes in. Otherwise even though the shots looked good off release , the angle likely was adj ever slightly due to the scare that it will get blocked by the kansas centre.
Would of liked to see OS win that game and see how he bounced back the game after.
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Would have been really interesting in hindsight had Melo not been suspended and Sullinger and Melo were playing against each other in the garden.
If Melo had not been suspended for the tourney, there's no way he would have been available at 22.
If Sully hadn't struggled against Kansas' length, there's no way he would have been available at 21.
It was a perfect storm that allowed the Celtics to end up with those guys.
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Sully has to improve the midrange game. Didn't really show it much at ohio state. He will need it now. Did he force shots? Sure...Thomas had to sit early with fouls and Buford was MIA...sully had to take some of those shots. Osu didn't have a lot of consistent outside shooting last season.
I think playing pro-style pick n roll offense with Rondo will open up that part of his game. Hopefully he is working on his midrange to be ready.
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You neglect to mention Withey blocking him three times in a row. This might indicate that he might struggle getting his shot off in the pros.
Sullinger struggled against long shot-blockers, which scares teams. If he can't get his shot off against Kansas's Jeff Withey or Michigan State's Adreian Payne, what will he do against Dwight Howard and Serge Ibaka?
Read more: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2012/writers/michael_rosenberg/06/27/nba-draft-questions/index.html#ixzz1zSm8WzSY
NEW ORLEANS -- Jeff Withey destroyed Jared Sullinger on Saturday night, destroyed him in every way one player can destroy another. On the other hand, Jeff Withey probably did Sullinger a favor. Because if Withey can reduce Sullinger to a puddle of pouting goo, imagine what Kentucky's Anthony Davis would have done to Sullinger on Monday night.
Ah well, we don't have to worry about that. Withey took care of Sullinger, and because he took care of Sullinger in such destructive fashion, Kansas took care of Ohio State, winning their national semifinal 64-62 to set up a date with Kentucky for the title.
Withey scored only four points and had four turnovers, but his fingerprints were all over this victory for Kansas. Kind of like his fingerprints were all over Sullinger's shots, not to mention shots by a few other Buckeyes. When all was said and done, Withey had set a national semifinal record with seven blocked shots -- bettering the record of another Jayhawk, Danny Manning, who had six in 1988 against Duke -- and had affected a good many more.
"I was just in the right place at the right time," Withey said, fooling himself maybe but nobody else. Because when all was said and done, Jeff Withey had been the single biggest factor in the Jayhawks' victory.
The box score might not say as much. The box score will say, in fact, that Sullinger outscored Withey 13 to four, and that Sullinger outrebounded Withey 11 to eight.
But the box score isn't fooling anybody, either, because Withey destroyed him. Sullinger took 19 shots and made only five.
"Big fella here played as good of low-post defense on a great player as he could," Kansas coach Bill Self said of Withey's defense on Sullinger. "Not only got seven blocks, but altered four or five at least."
Withey had help from Robinson and reserve Kevin Young, the three of them ganging up to hold Sullinger and Deshaun Thomas to 22 points on 33 shots in 62 minutes.
"I could barely see," Sullinger said. "I couldn't see over a 7-footer, and a 6-10 guy [Robinson]."
For Withey, it was a repeat of his mastery in the Midwest Regional title game against North Carolina, which he took over in the final two minutes by blocking a shot by John Henson and then another by Stilman White. When that run began, Kansas clung to a 71-67 lead. The final score was 80-67. North Carolina didn't score again, and while Withey didn't do all of that, he led it.
Same as Saturday, when he immediately inserted himself into Sullinger's cranium by blocking Sullinger's first shot, which was also Ohio State's first shot. Early in the second half Withey forcibly removed Sullinger from the game by blocking his shot three times in 40 seconds. Don't get me wrong, Sullinger didn't leave the game. He kept playing.
He just wasn't any good.
In the second half, Sullinger was 2 of 11 from the floor. He was so out of sorts, he was jacking 3-pointers and 20-footers and flopping like a fish for phantom fouls and gesturing to referees and whining to his coach -- and to Thad Matta's credit, he was having none of it.
After one particularly ridiculous stretch for Sullinger, when Withey blocked him and blocked him again and again and was so far into Sullinger's head that his next touch started 20 feet from the basket and ended in the same spot, with a 20-foot brick, Sullinger saw his shot floating errantly toward the rim and dove like a Spanish soccer player, punctuating the flop by slamming his arm on the floor. The sound effect didn't work, and neither did Sullinger's whining and gesticulating to the refs, and when a timeout was called shortly thereafter and Sullinger whined his way to the bench, he found no comfort there. Matta was red-faced and yelling at him, looking stunned that his All-American, his future NBA power forward was reduced to such shenanigans by a rail-thin red-shirt junior like Jeff Withey.
About that NBA stuff ...
No chance. Sullinger has no chance in that league. I mean, he'll get drafted by someone and he'll stick on a roster, but he won't be a great pro, or even a very good one. Not as his game and body are currently configured, with low-post offense as close to the rim -- and below it, usually -- as he can get. That stuff works in college, or at least it works against some post players, but it didn't work against Jeff Withey and it won't work in the NBA. The NBA general manager that spends a high lottery pick on Sullinger is a GM who must have been sleeping Saturday night and then failed to get his hands on the tape.
Because the tape don't lie.
Jeff Withey destroyed Sullinger, got so far into his head that Sullinger was useless -- and pointless -- in the final 5½ minutes when Kansas was rallying from a six-point deficit to win. In that span, Sullinger missed a layup with 4:39 left and he missed a jumper with 3:19 left and then he just didn't shoot again. Ohio State was trying to hold off Kansas, and it chose to do that by giving shots to anyone but All-American Jared Sullinger.
Jeff Withey did that.
But he did more than that. With 1:42 left and Ohio State leading 59-58, Buckeyes guard Aaron Craft blew past Kansas' Tyshawn Taylor and honed in on the rim, where his layup found no iron, only the hand of Withey.
Less than 30 seconds later, with Kansas now leading 60-59, Withey was 20 feet from the basket, defending Sullinger -- who wanted no part of the lane anymore -- when the ball went to OSU guard William Buford. With an unabated path to the rim, Buford went up for a layup and watched helplessly as Withey swooped in from behind, swatting the shot off the rim and over the hoop. That led to a fast break the other way, one Elijah Johnson consummated with a driving bucket for a 62-59 lead with 1:10 left.
"The block on Buford was unbelievable," Self said. "They had us. He turns two points for Ohio State into two points for us."
That's a four-point swing right there.
Kansas won by two.
See my point here? Kansas won Saturday to reach the national championship game -- and Jeff Withey did that.
http://www.cbssports.com/collegebasketball/story/18207375
Again too rosy of analysis. I hope your right though of course.
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I was at the Final 4 in 1993 when Eric Montross outplayed Chris Webber in the finals....how did that turn out in the NBA?
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I was at the Final 4 in 1993 when Eric Montross outplayed Chris Webber in the finals....how did that turn out in the NBA?
Solid point. Sullinger needs to work on his flaws though. He needs to establish a mid range game (ala Bass and Baby) and he really needs to work on his conditioning, especially since he has back problems. Definitely work to be done, but no doubt in my mind that this kid does it and becomes the biggest steal in the draft.
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He had a bad offensive night. He out rebounded the seven footer,and the 6'10 number 5 pick Robinson in the same game. T. Rob shot 8 for 18 and 3 of 6 from the line. Is he a bust too?
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You neglect to mention Withey blocking him three times in a row. This might indicate that he might struggle getting his shot off in the pros.
Sullinger struggled against long shot-blockers, which scares teams. If he can't get his shot off against Kansas's Jeff Withey or Michigan State's Adreian Payne, what will he do against Dwight Howard and Serge Ibaka?
Read more: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2012/writers/michael_rosenberg/06/27/nba-draft-questions/index.html#ixzz1zSm8WzSY
NEW ORLEANS -- Jeff Withey destroyed Jared Sullinger on Saturday night, destroyed him in every way one player can destroy another. On the other hand, Jeff Withey probably did Sullinger a favor. Because if Withey can reduce Sullinger to a puddle of pouting goo, imagine what Kentucky's Anthony Davis would have done to Sullinger on Monday night.
Ah well, we don't have to worry about that. Withey took care of Sullinger, and because he took care of Sullinger in such destructive fashion, Kansas took care of Ohio State, winning their national semifinal 64-62 to set up a date with Kentucky for the title.
Withey scored only four points and had four turnovers, but his fingerprints were all over this victory for Kansas. Kind of like his fingerprints were all over Sullinger's shots, not to mention shots by a few other Buckeyes. When all was said and done, Withey had set a national semifinal record with seven blocked shots -- bettering the record of another Jayhawk, Danny Manning, who had six in 1988 against Duke -- and had affected a good many more.
"I was just in the right place at the right time," Withey said, fooling himself maybe but nobody else. Because when all was said and done, Jeff Withey had been the single biggest factor in the Jayhawks' victory.
The box score might not say as much. The box score will say, in fact, that Sullinger outscored Withey 13 to four, and that Sullinger outrebounded Withey 11 to eight.
But the box score isn't fooling anybody, either, because Withey destroyed him. Sullinger took 19 shots and made only five.
"Big fella here played as good of low-post defense on a great player as he could," Kansas coach Bill Self said of Withey's defense on Sullinger. "Not only got seven blocks, but altered four or five at least."
Withey had help from Robinson and reserve Kevin Young, the three of them ganging up to hold Sullinger and Deshaun Thomas to 22 points on 33 shots in 62 minutes.
"I could barely see," Sullinger said. "I couldn't see over a 7-footer, and a 6-10 guy [Robinson]."
For Withey, it was a repeat of his mastery in the Midwest Regional title game against North Carolina, which he took over in the final two minutes by blocking a shot by John Henson and then another by Stilman White. When that run began, Kansas clung to a 71-67 lead. The final score was 80-67. North Carolina didn't score again, and while Withey didn't do all of that, he led it.
Same as Saturday, when he immediately inserted himself into Sullinger's cranium by blocking Sullinger's first shot, which was also Ohio State's first shot. Early in the second half Withey forcibly removed Sullinger from the game by blocking his shot three times in 40 seconds. Don't get me wrong, Sullinger didn't leave the game. He kept playing.
He just wasn't any good.
In the second half, Sullinger was 2 of 11 from the floor. He was so out of sorts, he was jacking 3-pointers and 20-footers and flopping like a fish for phantom fouls and gesturing to referees and whining to his coach -- and to Thad Matta's credit, he was having none of it.
After one particularly ridiculous stretch for Sullinger, when Withey blocked him and blocked him again and again and was so far into Sullinger's head that his next touch started 20 feet from the basket and ended in the same spot, with a 20-foot brick, Sullinger saw his shot floating errantly toward the rim and dove like a Spanish soccer player, punctuating the flop by slamming his arm on the floor. The sound effect didn't work, and neither did Sullinger's whining and gesticulating to the refs, and when a timeout was called shortly thereafter and Sullinger whined his way to the bench, he found no comfort there. Matta was red-faced and yelling at him, looking stunned that his All-American, his future NBA power forward was reduced to such shenanigans by a rail-thin red-shirt junior like Jeff Withey.
About that NBA stuff ...
No chance. Sullinger has no chance in that league. I mean, he'll get drafted by someone and he'll stick on a roster, but he won't be a great pro, or even a very good one. Not as his game and body are currently configured, with low-post offense as close to the rim -- and below it, usually -- as he can get. That stuff works in college, or at least it works against some post players, but it didn't work against Jeff Withey and it won't work in the NBA. The NBA general manager that spends a high lottery pick on Sullinger is a GM who must have been sleeping Saturday night and then failed to get his hands on the tape.
Because the tape don't lie.
Jeff Withey destroyed Sullinger, got so far into his head that Sullinger was useless -- and pointless -- in the final 5½ minutes when Kansas was rallying from a six-point deficit to win. In that span, Sullinger missed a layup with 4:39 left and he missed a jumper with 3:19 left and then he just didn't shoot again. Ohio State was trying to hold off Kansas, and it chose to do that by giving shots to anyone but All-American Jared Sullinger.
Jeff Withey did that.
But he did more than that. With 1:42 left and Ohio State leading 59-58, Buckeyes guard Aaron Craft blew past Kansas' Tyshawn Taylor and honed in on the rim, where his layup found no iron, only the hand of Withey.
Less than 30 seconds later, with Kansas now leading 60-59, Withey was 20 feet from the basket, defending Sullinger -- who wanted no part of the lane anymore -- when the ball went to OSU guard William Buford. With an unabated path to the rim, Buford went up for a layup and watched helplessly as Withey swooped in from behind, swatting the shot off the rim and over the hoop. That led to a fast break the other way, one Elijah Johnson consummated with a driving bucket for a 62-59 lead with 1:10 left.
"The block on Buford was unbelievable," Self said. "They had us. He turns two points for Ohio State into two points for us."
That's a four-point swing right there.
Kansas won by two.
See my point here? Kansas won Saturday to reach the national championship game -- and Jeff Withey did that.
http://www.cbssports.com/collegebasketball/story/18207375
Again too rosy of analysis. I hope your right though of course.
As a previous poster pointed out however, rarely if ever will Sullinger be going up against 7 footers in the NBA, so the fact that he struggled to get his shot off is irrelevant. If KG and Sully are on the court together, do you think another team is going to put their 7 footer, if they even have one, against Sully and not KG? College is so much different than the NBA in that aspect, Sully was a beast in the paint, so any team would put their longest, tallest player against him to try and neutralize him as he was not playing alongside a legit threat at C. In the NBA, and specifically on the Celtics, this will not be the case so the fact that a 7 foot guy made life difficult for him down low in a college game, is of no concern to me whatsoever.
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Sullinger may have shot poorly (5 for 19 shooting) but Kansas only won by two points, so in the big picture the game wasn't exactly the one-sided bloodbath that the CBS article makes it out to be. He also managed to score 13 points and grab 11 rebounds plus blocked 3 shots, which is a notable effort considering it was the final four. I think it's best to hold judgment until he has actually played a few games in the NBA first or at least undergone pre-season training with the other Celtics, poor guy probably hasn't even signed his contract yet.
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Sullinger may have shot poorly (5 for 19 shooting) but Kansas only won by two points, so in the big picture the game wasn't exactly the one-sided bloodbath that the CBS article makes it out to be. He also managed to score 13 points and grab 11 rebounds plus blocked 3 shots, which is a notable effort considering it was the final four. I think it's best to hold judgment until he has actually played a few games in the NBA first or at least undergone pre-season training with the other Celtics, poor guy probably hasn't even signed his contract yet.
Yep and Craft was 4 of 11 and Thomas was 3 of 14. Hard to win games when your three best players have sub-par outings. The fact that they were even within 2, is a large part because of Sullinger's first half. He was just worn out down the stretch and no one else helped him.
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I hope he succeeds. I think he will have issues with bigs like Big Baby did at times and get blocked here and there. I want him to be successful though. I hated the pick but now he is a Celtic I am rooting for him all the way.
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"NEW ORLEANS -- Jeff Withey destroyed Jared Sullinger on Saturday night, destroyed him in every way one player can destroy another. On the other hand, Jeff Withey probably did Sullinger a favor. Because if Withey can reduce Sullinger to a puddle of pouting goo, imagine what Kentucky's Anthony Davis would have done to Sullinger on Monday night."
This quote is overblown.
Nobody knows how he would of done vs Kentucky and davis. Withey did get the best of Sullinger, but i wonder if this was a best of 3 or 4 series, how Sullinger would of adjusted. Every great player can have one bad game. But usually bounce back. This was honestly Sullingers 2nd or 3rd mediocre game all year long.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6dKTRgDMBDg
"sully just knows how to play basketball"
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Really , if he can rebound well any points he gives us are gravy.
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Saw Gonzaga vs OS 2012. Sullinger had a pretty bad game again. Robert Sacre, a 7'1 guy really caused Sullinger problems. He got blocked a quite a bit of times and missed a few bad looking shots. Also he was running pretty bad.
One thing you can't deny with sullinger is that he is fearless. But sometimes its not always smart to try to bulldoze your shot in vs a 7'1 guy who is just as strong.
He knocked down three jumpers early in the game. Not sure why for the rest of the game he stopped taking jump shots.
Def one of his worse games of the year. From that game alone, he didn't even look like a 1st round pick.
His conditioning is the #1 priority for him to be a good nba player. Good news is that at the combine he def looked slimmer vs his last game against Kansas.
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Has anyone compared him to Z-Bo, aka Zach Randolph?
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I've been seeing Sullinger's games on ESPN3 and he reminds me of David West. He's not as tall or long which is going to have an impact but at the college level anyway, he displayed a similar all-around offensive skillset without hardly getting a few inches off the ground on most of his shots. He showed some pick and pop ability like West as well as the ability to use his handle and footwork to get to within 7 feet feet or closer to the basket and get off shots with only an inch of margin to work with.
I like what Sullinger may bring as a role player. He's got a lot of talent for the sixth or seventh guy on a team and his rebounding matches up perfectly with a huge team weakness but I worry about him shooting over size in the NBA as a top 3 core player.
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Has anyone compared him to Z-Bo, aka Zach Randolph?
yup. But Z-Bo has long arse arms...like a sloth.
I like that Sully muscles his way down there though. I'm not sure if anyone he's been compared to muscles others like he's a 7 footer. I love that about him.
Hope he succeeds.
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Holy Spamola!