CelticsStrong
Celtics Basketball => Celtics Talk => Topic started by: rondohondo on April 11, 2012, 05:32:53 PM
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In his Insider-Only column today:
DPOY: Tyson Chandler
1st Team:
PG: Avery Bradley
SG: Iggy
SF: Lebron James
PF: Kevin Garnett
C: Tyson Chandler
2nd Team:
PG: Ricky Rubio
SG: Tony Allen
SF: Luol Deng
PF: Taj Gibson
C: Dwight Howard
3rd Team:
PG: Mike Conley
SG: Ronnie Brewer
SF: Grant Hill
PF: Josh Smith
C: Serge Ibaka
I don't see how Bradley makes 1st team all defense(because of mins played), but then Rubio as 2nd and Conley 3rd team ?
Come on Rubio a better defender than Rondo? ::)
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Yeah that surprised me, Hollinger is a stats fiend and Rubio didn't check out too well on Synergy and 82games.
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The defense of the Timberwolves has collapsed since Rubio went down. Its one of those cases where his absence is used as evidence as his defensive value (relative to JJ Barea and Ridnour)
I wonder how Rondo's synergy and adjusted plus minus numbers are?
Basketballvalue: Defense is actually 2 points better with him off the court.
82games.com: Defense is 3 points better with him off the court
Those are unadjusted on/off court defensive numbers. That's two years in a row that teams have scored more against the C's with Rondo on the court than with him off the court.
Of course most of this seems to be tied to KG. When KG is on the court our defense is great, when he's off its meh at best.
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I can't argue with Hollinger on this one. Bradley is a better on the ball PG defender than Rondo. And Rubio does a very good job of staying in front of his man and often takes charges, which you rarely see from a PG.
Rondo is just too inconsistent on the defensive end for him to be named at the top 3. He has the capability of being #1, but every game I see him let his man drive past him at least 4 times and he gives a little poke from behind as a last ditch effort.
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In his Insider-Only column today:
DPOY: Tyson Chandler
1st Team:
PG: Avery Bradley
SG: Iggy
SF: Lebron James
PF: Kevin Garnett
C: Tyson Chandler
2nd Team:
PG: Ricky Rubio
SG: Tony Allen
SF: Luol Deng
PF: Taj Gibson
C: Dwight Howard
3rd Team:
PG: Mike Conley
SG: Ronnie Brewer
SF: Grant Hill
PF: Josh Smith
C: Serge Ibaka
I don't see how Bradley makes 1st team all defense(because of mins played), but then Rubio as 2nd and Conley 3rd team ?
Come on Rubio a better defender than Rondo? ::)
Rondo turns it on and off a lot. Plus, he lets his man beat him, to try to poke it from behind, way too much. Rubio is an excellent defender. Very smart. Quick hands. Reads the passing lanes. He averaged 2.2 steals per game.
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Weird, I get that he doesn't want two Celtics pgs on there, but it doesn't have to be that way since Avery is mostly a sg. Rondo should unquestionably be on one of the teams...probably the first [over Rubio and Conley especially].
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Yeah that surprised me, Hollinger is a stats fiend and Rubio didn't check out too well on Synergy and 82games.
It's hard for me to criticize Hollinger until I know what stats Hollinger puts into his ranking, and I'm not paying for ESPN Insider content.
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Rondo is top 2 or 3 in all the advanced defensive statistics including the percentage of posessions scored against and opponent fg%. Any though that his defensive prowress is unfounded is rediculous.
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http://www.mysynergysports.com/?lid=corpSite rondos advanced defensive stats
http://www.mysynergysports.com/?lid=corpSite rubio defensive stats
Rondo's are much better in over all points per posession and % scored against. Steals aernt what make a great defensive player.
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The defense of the Timberwolves has collapsed since Rubio went down. Its one of those cases where his absence is used as evidence as his defensive value (relative to JJ Barea and Ridnour)
I wonder how Rondo's synergy and adjusted plus minus numbers are?
Basketballvalue: Defense is actually 2 points better with him off the court.
82games.com: Defense is 3 points better with him off the court
Those are unadjusted on/off court defensive numbers. That's two years in a row that teams have scored more against the C's with Rondo on the court than with him off the court.
Of course most of this seems to be tied to KG. When KG is on the court our defense is great, when he's off its meh at best.
Rondo played heavy minutes at the beginning of the season when the defense was terrible and missed a fair amount of games when KG amd PP were playing better. That did a lot to his numbers.
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rondo is not a practical defender. Always opportunistic for a steal or defensive rebound. Its not how traditional defence is played and thats why hollinger prob left him off. Doesn't mean he isn't a good defender, but unique to say the least. It works and against some guys totally dominates but vs others he gets beaten.
Bradley on the other hand is hard to play and it doesnt matter if your player a or b.
Its sort of sad to see Pierce not on the list, esp the past few years. PP 5 years ago was one of the better sf defenders in the league
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Bradley and KG first team all defense? Deserved and good to see IMO, though a bit surprising--even if Bradley is now out of position.
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One thing that should be mentioned is that Hollinger has KG on his first team, but not Tony Allen or Dwight Howard.
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Rondo aint a lockdown defender he more of a gambler then anything lol
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Rondo aint a lockdown defender he more of a gambler then anything lol
This idea that Rondo just "gambles" everty time is silly. Rondo trusts the defense behind him to pick up the man after he gets by him. Its only gambling if he knows the man has a clear path to the basket after he gets by rondo.
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he gambles enough. Its not only that he has raw abilities to rebound well, but also once he thinks a shot will be taken, leaves his man a sec faster than any other pg would, to crash the boards. Again this could be a detriment if rondo guesses wrong, because the pg will now be free to receive a pass, but also a surplus bc you got an extra body to help grab a rebound.
In general he plays sound zone defense. He will never stick or focus on his own man completely and while chasing them, will try to swat balls from other players, try to anticipate a steal and also action the example above.
If you play like this, at times definitely you will get burnt. Rondo just is a sneaky player and doesn't nearly get as much burned as he should.
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It's that 3rd team that strikes me as the most off. Conley's a nice ball-hawk, but he's too small too make much of an impact. Rondo's length alone makes him a more effective defensive player, and there's other guys I'd prefer there too: Rose, Westbrook and Lowry come to mind; then there are bench guys like Eric Bledsoe and Iman Shumpert that can make a big impact.
Ronnie Brewer's nice but there are guys I like better defensively at the 2: D-Wade for one, not the most dedicated on-ball guy but a big defensive presence with his ball-hawking, rebounding and shot-blocking. Thabo Sefalosha and Paul George are more imposing defenders as well.
Grant Hill over Shawn Marion, Paul Pierce, Shane Battier, LRMAM, Gerald Wallace, even Artest... I just don't see it. I think Hill's just serviceable at this point in his career. Not enough quickness left.
I'd take Omer Asik over Ibaka too.
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Rondo gambles but he's really cut down this season, he's playing more solid defense because he knows Boston is weak on the backside.
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Rondo doesn't gamble - he funnels his man into the help then tries to poke it from behind.
He doesn't arbitrarily let his man by him so he can do a low percentage poke like some of you believe.
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Rondo doesn't gamble - he funnels his man into the help then tries to poke it from behind.
He doesn't arbitrarily let his man by him so he can do a low percentage poke like some of you believe.
Well.. to be fair you said he does one thing, then in the next sentence you said he doesn't do that.
Rondo has stopped doing that as of late. Bradley is inspiring Rondo to play real defense again and I like it.
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Rondo doesn't gamble - he funnels his man into the help then tries to poke it from behind.
He doesn't arbitrarily let his man by him so he can do a low percentage poke like some of you believe.
Well.. to be fair you said he does one thing, then in the next sentence you said he doesn't do that.
That's pretty funny.
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I just think Rondo gets picked off by screens, it happens. Bradley is much better at fighting through them, that doesn't make Rondo bad.
My thought is that perhaps Rondo's unadjusted on/off defensive numbers isn't about Rondo. Rather if he's out Bradely has been in at the PG position, so it could just be saying Bradley is that awesome of a defensive 1.
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Interesting choices by Hollinger... i like the Conley pick, he is a very underated defender and I like seeing him get credit... But Rubio on 2nd team? Yeah no way. Very surprised to see Bradley get recognition.
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I just think Rondo gets picked off by screens, it happens. Bradley is much better at fighting through them, that doesn't make Rondo bad.
My thought is that perhaps Rondo's unadjusted on/off defensive numbers isn't about Rondo. Rather if he's out Bradely has been in at the PG position, so it could just be saying Bradley is that awesome of a defensive 1.
Rondo was playing about 40 minutes a game at the beginning of the year when KG looked like he was in his 40s and PP was dealing with his heel injuries and Bradley was probably playing 5 minutes a game then. That had a lot to do with Rondo's overall numbers. Bradley does better against bigger players (sg) than Rondo but isn't any better against pgs.
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I just think Rondo gets picked off by screens, it happens. Bradley is much better at fighting through them, that doesn't make Rondo bad.
My thought is that perhaps Rondo's unadjusted on/off defensive numbers isn't about Rondo. Rather if he's out Bradely has been in at the PG position, so it could just be saying Bradley is that awesome of a defensive 1.
Rondo was playing about 40 minutes a game at the beginning of the year when KG looked like he was in his 40s and PP was dealing with his heel injuries and Bradley was probably playing 5 minutes a game then. That had a lot to do with Rondo's overall numbers. Bradley does better against bigger players (sg) than Rondo but isn't any better against pgs.
He's played 36 MPG while our defense has been on fire too, I don't think the early games where the C's were poor defensively would skew such a large overall minute sample as much as you imply.
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I just think Rondo gets picked off by screens, it happens. Bradley is much better at fighting through them, that doesn't make Rondo bad.
My thought is that perhaps Rondo's unadjusted on/off defensive numbers isn't about Rondo. Rather if he's out Bradely has been in at the PG position, so it could just be saying Bradley is that awesome of a defensive 1.
Rondo was playing about 40 minutes a game at the beginning of the year when KG looked like he was in his 40s and PP was dealing with his heel injuries and Bradley was probably playing 5 minutes a game then. That had a lot to do with Rondo's overall numbers. Bradley does better against bigger players (sg) than Rondo but isn't any better against pgs.
He's played 36 MPG while our defense has been on fire too, I don't think the early games where the C's were poor defensively would skew such a large overall minute sample as much as you imply.
That was over a quarter of the games that Rondo's played this year. How much larger would that number have to be to skew his stats?
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Not sure why the OP relates the 2 players in the title as if Rondo is obviously more worthy than Bradley. Bradley has been ridiculous and looks worthy based on this season.
Rondo is tough to evaluate. Our defense used to be greatly predicated on Rondo's ball pressure leading the opponent to start their offense later in the shot clock. This season, Bradley has been the star putting pressure on the ball, which makes Rondo seem less impressive by comparison.
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Not sure why the OP relates the 2 players in the title as if Rondo is obviously more worthy than Bradley. Bradley has been ridiculous and looks worthy based on this season.
Rondo is tough to evaluate. Our defense used to be greatly predicated on Rondo's ball pressure leading the opponent to start their offense later in the shot clock. This season, Bradley has been the star putting pressure on the ball, which makes Rondo seem less impressive by comparison.
Rondo doesn't pressure the ball as much as Bradley but his overall defense has been just as impressive.
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I just think Rondo gets picked off by screens, it happens. Bradley is much better at fighting through them, that doesn't make Rondo bad.
My thought is that perhaps Rondo's unadjusted on/off defensive numbers isn't about Rondo. Rather if he's out Bradely has been in at the PG position, so it could just be saying Bradley is that awesome of a defensive 1.
Rondo was playing about 40 minutes a game at the beginning of the year when KG looked like he was in his 40s and PP was dealing with his heel injuries and Bradley was probably playing 5 minutes a game then. That had a lot to do with Rondo's overall numbers. Bradley does better against bigger players (sg) than Rondo but isn't any better against pgs.
He's played 36 MPG while our defense has been on fire too, I don't think the early games where the C's were poor defensively would skew such a large overall minute sample as much as you imply.
That was over a quarter of the games that Rondo's played this year. How much larger would that number have to be to skew his stats?
Those games still counted, and after the initial 10 or so game stretch we've been the best defensive team in the league.
Meanwhile Rondo's minutes per game have held pretty steady overall, your assertion that he played huge minutes really isn't true. Rondo when in the line up at all always has played big minutes this year.
By now the numbers should have reflected that but they haven't. He and Ray Allen are the only heavy rotation players who have a negative on/off court number defensively. That means something, my guess is that it means that Bradley (Rondo's backup) and Pietrus/Bradley/whomever (Ray's backup) play better defense than them.
Now it could be that the backups play more of their overall minutes with KG than Rondo does, but given his sub patterns I don't think that's true.
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I just think Rondo gets picked off by screens, it happens. Bradley is much better at fighting through them, that doesn't make Rondo bad.
My thought is that perhaps Rondo's unadjusted on/off defensive numbers isn't about Rondo. Rather if he's out Bradely has been in at the PG position, so it could just be saying Bradley is that awesome of a defensive 1.
Rondo was playing about 40 minutes a game at the beginning of the year when KG looked like he was in his 40s and PP was dealing with his heel injuries and Bradley was probably playing 5 minutes a game then. That had a lot to do with Rondo's overall numbers. Bradley does better against bigger players (sg) than Rondo but isn't any better against pgs.
He's played 36 MPG while our defense has been on fire too, I don't think the early games where the C's were poor defensively would skew such a large overall minute sample as much as you imply.
That was over a quarter of the games that Rondo's played this year. How much larger would that number have to be to skew his stats?
Those games still counted, and after the initial 10 or so game stretch we've been the best defensive team in the league.
Meanwhile Rondo's minutes per game have held pretty steady overall, your assertion that he played huge minutes really isn't true. Rondo when in the line up at all always has played big minutes this year.
By now the numbers should have reflected that but they haven't. He and Ray Allen are the only heavy rotation players who have a negative on/off court number defensively. That means something, my guess is that it means that Bradley (Rondo's backup) and Pietrus/Bradley/whomever (Ray's backup) play better defense than them.
Now it could be that the backups play more of their overall minutes with KG than Rondo does, but given his sub patterns I don't think that's true.
I'd say that Rondo, out of all of the rotation, played the highest percentage of his minutes at the beginning of the year. And at the time his defensive on/off numbers were pretty good at the time. Bradley's individual numbers are comparable to Rondo's, not really better.
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I just think Rondo gets picked off by screens, it happens. Bradley is much better at fighting through them, that doesn't make Rondo bad.
My thought is that perhaps Rondo's unadjusted on/off defensive numbers isn't about Rondo. Rather if he's out Bradely has been in at the PG position, so it could just be saying Bradley is that awesome of a defensive 1.
Rondo was playing about 40 minutes a game at the beginning of the year when KG looked like he was in his 40s and PP was dealing with his heel injuries and Bradley was probably playing 5 minutes a game then. That had a lot to do with Rondo's overall numbers. Bradley does better against bigger players (sg) than Rondo but isn't any better against pgs.
He's played 36 MPG while our defense has been on fire too, I don't think the early games where the C's were poor defensively would skew such a large overall minute sample as much as you imply.
That was over a quarter of the games that Rondo's played this year. How much larger would that number have to be to skew his stats?
Those games still counted, and after the initial 10 or so game stretch we've been the best defensive team in the league.
Meanwhile Rondo's minutes per game have held pretty steady overall, your assertion that he played huge minutes really isn't true. Rondo when in the line up at all always has played big minutes this year.
By now the numbers should have reflected that but they haven't. He and Ray Allen are the only heavy rotation players who have a negative on/off court number defensively. That means something, my guess is that it means that Bradley (Rondo's backup) and Pietrus/Bradley/whomever (Ray's backup) play better defense than them.
Now it could be that the backups play more of their overall minutes with KG than Rondo does, but given his sub patterns I don't think that's true.
I'd say that Rondo, out of all of the rotation, played the highest percentage of his minutes at the beginning of the year. And at the time his defensive on/off numbers were pretty good at the time. Bradley's individual numbers are comparable to Rondo's, not really better.
You can say it, that doesn't make it true. Look at his game logs and splits:
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/r/rondora01/splits/2012/
compare those to Pauls, KGs, or Rays:
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/g/garneke01/splits/2012/
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/a/allenra02/splits/2012/
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/piercpa01/splits/2012/
The minutes played the first half and first two months even aren't noticably different among our starters. Rajon played a few more minutes than KG/Ray but that's been the case all year, he plays more MPG.
Just because you don't like/agree with what the on/off numbers seem to indicate doesn't mean the data is skewed by our early swoon and Rajon's early minutes. There just isn't anything to support that theory.
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I just think Rondo gets picked off by screens, it happens. Bradley is much better at fighting through them, that doesn't make Rondo bad.
My thought is that perhaps Rondo's unadjusted on/off defensive numbers isn't about Rondo. Rather if he's out Bradely has been in at the PG position, so it could just be saying Bradley is that awesome of a defensive 1.
You'd have to run this by CoachBo but i was always under the impression that fighting throught the screen was an effort stat. I was taught that depending on your opponent you either slide behind the screener if the player is more likely to drive to the basket or pass the ball or go over the top if the player is a good shooter.
Fighting over the top is all effort though because your usually at least a half a step behind the player your chasing. And if the big doesnt call out the screen it can be very hazardous to a guards health. Its not pretty and its definatley one of those plays you rarely get recognized for. But in a good defense your teammates depend on it.
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What you say is right Hooligan, but Rondo isn't a magnet by any means. Bradley is just one of the best at the league I've seen this entire year when it comes to getting over screens.
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He and Ray Allen are the only heavy rotation players who have a negative on/off court number defensively. That means something, my guess is that it means that Bradley (Rondo's backup) and Pietrus/Bradley/whomever (Ray's backup) play better defense than them.
Now it could be that the backups play more of their overall minutes with KG than Rondo does, but given his sub patterns I don't think that's true.
From what I've seen the team has had great defensive success with Avery/Pietrus, Rondo/Avery and Rondo/Pietrus. The defensive problems have emerged whenever Ray's on the court. I think the numbers penalize Rondo a bit for spending so much time with Ray in the backcourt.
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What you say is right Hooligan, but Rondo isn't a magnet by any means. Bradley is just one of the best at the league I've seen this entire year when it comes to getting over screens.
Yep. And it's not like he said Rondo isn't good. He just picked three others that he thinks are having a better defensive year.
Rondo has a lot more offensive responsibility than Bradley and it's obvious to me that Bradley puts more effort into the defensive end than Rondo, because defense is Bradley's specialty.
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He and Ray Allen are the only heavy rotation players who have a negative on/off court number defensively. That means something, my guess is that it means that Bradley (Rondo's backup) and Pietrus/Bradley/whomever (Ray's backup) play better defense than them.
Now it could be that the backups play more of their overall minutes with KG than Rondo does, but given his sub patterns I don't think that's true.
From what I've seen the team has had great defensive success with Avery/Pietrus, Rondo/Avery and Rondo/Pietrus. The defensive problems have emerged whenever Ray's on the court. I think the numbers penalize Rondo a bit for spending so much time with Ray in the backcourt.
Yeah this could be it. Makes sense in a lot of ways he gets doubly hit. He's certainly played the most minutes next to Ray so that's going to hurt his unadjusted on/off, and when he's off the court Bradley has almost always been on the court. Bradley's numbers have been off the chart all year defensively, so that also makes his on/off defensive numbers look bad.
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I just think Rondo gets picked off by screens, it happens. Bradley is much better at fighting through them, that doesn't make Rondo bad.
My thought is that perhaps Rondo's unadjusted on/off defensive numbers isn't about Rondo. Rather if he's out Bradely has been in at the PG position, so it could just be saying Bradley is that awesome of a defensive 1.
Rondo was playing about 40 minutes a game at the beginning of the year when KG looked like he was in his 40s and PP was dealing with his heel injuries and Bradley was probably playing 5 minutes a game then. That had a lot to do with Rondo's overall numbers. Bradley does better against bigger players (sg) than Rondo but isn't any better against pgs.
He's played 36 MPG while our defense has been on fire too, I don't think the early games where the C's were poor defensively would skew such a large overall minute sample as much as you imply.
That was over a quarter of the games that Rondo's played this year. How much larger would that number have to be to skew his stats?
Those games still counted, and after the initial 10 or so game stretch we've been the best defensive team in the league.
Meanwhile Rondo's minutes per game have held pretty steady overall, your assertion that he played huge minutes really isn't true. Rondo when in the line up at all always has played big minutes this year.
By now the numbers should have reflected that but they haven't. He and Ray Allen are the only heavy rotation players who have a negative on/off court number defensively. That means something, my guess is that it means that Bradley (Rondo's backup) and Pietrus/Bradley/whomever (Ray's backup) play better defense than them.
Now it could be that the backups play more of their overall minutes with KG than Rondo does, but given his sub patterns I don't think that's true.
I'd say that Rondo, out of all of the rotation, played the highest percentage of his minutes at the beginning of the year. And at the time his defensive on/off numbers were pretty good at the time. Bradley's individual numbers are comparable to Rondo's, not really better.
You can say it, that doesn't make it true. Look at his game logs and splits:
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/r/rondora01/splits/2012/
compare those to Pauls, KGs, or Rays:
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/g/garneke01/splits/2012/
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/a/allenra02/splits/2012/
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/piercpa01/splits/2012/
The minutes played the first half and first two months even aren't noticably different among our starters. Rajon played a few more minutes than KG/Ray but that's been the case all year, he plays more MPG.
Just because you don't like/agree with what the on/off numbers seem to indicate doesn't mean the data is skewed by our early swoon and Rajon's early minutes. There just isn't anything to support that theory.
Nothing other than the facts. Ray's in the same boat with Rondo, and unsurprisingly he has bad on/off numbers as well.
PP missed the first 3 games and he's played 7 more games than Rondo. That means, for those keeping score, that he played 3 fewer games than Rondo when our team defense as bad and he's played 10 more games than Rondo during our good defensive stretch. I don't see why it isn't obvious to you that Rondo played a higher percentage of his minutes at the beginning of the year. For Rondo, it's 12 out of his 48 games. For PP, it's 9 out of his 55. 1/4 compared to less than 1/6.
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He and Ray Allen are the only heavy rotation players who have a negative on/off court number defensively. That means something, my guess is that it means that Bradley (Rondo's backup) and Pietrus/Bradley/whomever (Ray's backup) play better defense than them.
Now it could be that the backups play more of their overall minutes with KG than Rondo does, but given his sub patterns I don't think that's true.
From what I've seen the team has had great defensive success with Avery/Pietrus, Rondo/Avery and Rondo/Pietrus. The defensive problems have emerged whenever Ray's on the court. I think the numbers penalize Rondo a bit for spending so much time with Ray in the backcourt.
Yeah this could be it. Makes sense in a lot of ways he gets doubly hit. He's certainly played the most minutes next to Ray so that's going to hurt his unadjusted on/off, and when he's off the court Bradley has almost always been on the court. Bradley's numbers have been off the chart all year defensively, so that also makes his on/off defensive numbers look bad.
This makes a lot of sense. I never thought that the issue could be the other guards play and the effect it might have on how Rondo approaches his decision to either fight through the screen or go under it. TP both of you.
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He and Ray Allen are the only heavy rotation players who have a negative on/off court number defensively. That means something, my guess is that it means that Bradley (Rondo's backup) and Pietrus/Bradley/whomever (Ray's backup) play better defense than them.
Now it could be that the backups play more of their overall minutes with KG than Rondo does, but given his sub patterns I don't think that's true.
From what I've seen the team has had great defensive success with Avery/Pietrus, Rondo/Avery and Rondo/Pietrus. The defensive problems have emerged whenever Ray's on the court. I think the numbers penalize Rondo a bit for spending so much time with Ray in the backcourt.
Yeah this could be it. Makes sense in a lot of ways he gets doubly hit. He's certainly played the most minutes next to Ray so that's going to hurt his unadjusted on/off, and when he's off the court Bradley has almost always been on the court. Bradley's numbers have been off the chart all year defensively, so that also makes his on/off defensive numbers look bad.
This makes a lot of sense. I never thought that the issue could be the other guards play and the effect it might have on how Rondo approaches his decision to either fight through the screen or go under it. TP both of you.
Yeah, I want to see some adjusted defense plus minus numbers for Rondo defensively. (they run regressions to control for your teammates you play with).
I haven't found any good ones for just defense though.
Overall he has a huge positive effect on the team when he plays.
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I just think Rondo gets picked off by screens, it happens. Bradley is much better at fighting through them, that doesn't make Rondo bad.
My thought is that perhaps Rondo's unadjusted on/off defensive numbers isn't about Rondo. Rather if he's out Bradely has been in at the PG position, so it could just be saying Bradley is that awesome of a defensive 1.
Rondo was playing about 40 minutes a game at the beginning of the year when KG looked like he was in his 40s and PP was dealing with his heel injuries and Bradley was probably playing 5 minutes a game then. That had a lot to do with Rondo's overall numbers. Bradley does better against bigger players (sg) than Rondo but isn't any better against pgs.
He's played 36 MPG while our defense has been on fire too, I don't think the early games where the C's were poor defensively would skew such a large overall minute sample as much as you imply.
That was over a quarter of the games that Rondo's played this year. How much larger would that number have to be to skew his stats?
Those games still counted, and after the initial 10 or so game stretch we've been the best defensive team in the league.
Meanwhile Rondo's minutes per game have held pretty steady overall, your assertion that he played huge minutes really isn't true. Rondo when in the line up at all always has played big minutes this year.
By now the numbers should have reflected that but they haven't. He and Ray Allen are the only heavy rotation players who have a negative on/off court number defensively. That means something, my guess is that it means that Bradley (Rondo's backup) and Pietrus/Bradley/whomever (Ray's backup) play better defense than them.
Now it could be that the backups play more of their overall minutes with KG than Rondo does, but given his sub patterns I don't think that's true.
I'd say that Rondo, out of all of the rotation, played the highest percentage of his minutes at the beginning of the year. And at the time his defensive on/off numbers were pretty good at the time. Bradley's individual numbers are comparable to Rondo's, not really better.
You can say it, that doesn't make it true. Look at his game logs and splits:
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/r/rondora01/splits/2012/
compare those to Pauls, KGs, or Rays:
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/g/garneke01/splits/2012/
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/a/allenra02/splits/2012/
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/piercpa01/splits/2012/
The minutes played the first half and first two months even aren't noticably different among our starters. Rajon played a few more minutes than KG/Ray but that's been the case all year, he plays more MPG.
Just because you don't like/agree with what the on/off numbers seem to indicate doesn't mean the data is skewed by our early swoon and Rajon's early minutes. There just isn't anything to support that theory.
you guys continue to use these on/off stats when a more reliable, less dependant on variables. stat is readily available. Rondo's defensive numbers on synergy are spectacular. His and Avery's are right in line with each other and are both better than guys like Westbtook, Rubio, etc.
http://www.mysynergysports.com/?lid=corpSite
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Bradley and KG first team all defense? Deserved and good to see IMO, though a bit surprising--even if Bradley is now out of position.
Bradley can't play point guard, so I'd say he's playing at his position now.
I just don't understand how AB (a shooting guard), can get an award at the PG position. I agree, that AB may be the best On ball defender against point guards in the league, but giving a SG a 1st team spot as a PG doesn't make sense to me. That's like giving d.wade a spot on a list as a PG. Even when AB was attempting to play PG, PP played point forward, so AB could avoid point responsibilities. AB doesn't play point, and at SG (his real position), I don't think he's a top 5 defender. I think Rondo would get my vote. I agree with Rubio on second team.
It's great to see his defense recognized, but I think it's a sort of cheap way to do it.
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I haven't read through this thread yet but I wanted to chime in. Defense comes down to effort, athleticism, and discipline.
Avery Bradley plays hard defense 100% of the time. When he is on the ball he pressures it hard, when a screen comes he fights through it hard. He rarely gambles on defense and contests everything.
Rondo consistently makes the defensive team for being near the top of the league in steals. This year he isn't. When Rondo wants to he plays excellent defense, however he spends way too much of his time gambling for steals and just free lancing in general. Rondo rarely picks someone up full court.
For me Avery is a significantly better defender than Rondo.
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For someone who pays attention to more Knicks games than i do -- is Ty Chandler really playing at such an elite defensive level?
He must be having an outstanding season considering the field in Smith/Howard/Garnett/James
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Avery plays all of the backup PG mintues for this team and has played PG for probably more minutes overall than SG.
I think his true position will end up being PG or backup combo guard if you want.
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For someone who pays attention to more Knicks games than i do -- is Ty Chandler really playing at such an elite defensive level?
He must be having an outstanding season considering the field in Smith/Howard/Garnett/James
He's having a similar year to last year, very impressive. When he's out of the game the Knicks can't buy a rebound.
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For someone who pays attention to more Knicks games than i do -- is Ty Chandler really playing at such an elite defensive level?
He must be having an outstanding season considering the field in Smith/Howard/Garnett/James
He's having a similar year to last year, very impressive. When he's out of the game the Knicks can't buy a rebound.
Wow. Just took a brief look at his numbers. He's having a heck of a season. Pretty amazing considering the turmoil over there. Guess he's been the buoy that's kept them afloat.
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you guys continue to use these on/off stats when a more reliable, less dependant on variables. stat is readily available. Rondo's defensive numbers on synergy are spectacular. His and Avery's are right in line with each other and are both better than guys like Westbtook, Rubio, etc.
http://www.mysynergysports.com/?lid=corpSite
My dog's better than your dog, my dog's better than yours...
Thanks for the link, though, much appreciated. I keep thinking I'd like to check out the synergy stats myself but never go look for it so TP for making my life easier.
That said, when the PPP measure on synergy ranks Brandon Bass as the best defensive player on the Celtics (0.66 v. 0.7 for Bradley, 0.74 for Rondo and KG, 0.76 for Pietrus, 0.77 for Pierce), you have to admit all the stats are subject to interpretation and qualification. None are infallible. And superiority depends on the purposes for which it's being used.
As far as the "SG as PG" on the All Defensive team, I don't think it matters. Really, when it comes to defense, it doesn't break down to PG, SG, SF, PF, C anymore. Really, it's on-ball (both Rondo and Bradley can fall in this category), perimeter (Pierce and Pietrus, guys like Deng, Lebron and Wade) and big (KG, Chandler, Howard, Perk, Ibaka all go in this group) defenders. Rondo might be the offensive point guard, but in many matchups, Bradley is the guy defending the point. Distinguishing by perimeter and on-ball as opposed to guard and forward might help more of the best players make the first team. One of each has to be there to make sure that position is represented, then the next two best players. So if it ends up with 1 big, 3 perimeter and 1 on-ball, or any other 1-1-3 or 1-2-2 combination, so be it.
For me, I'd go Rondo, Iguodala and Lebron, KG and Chandler on my first team. CP3, TA and Deng, Ibaka and Howard on my second team. I like guys like Taj Gibson, but if you're not playing major minutes against starters, I don't think you should be in the running. That's why as great as TA was defensively while here, I don't really think he belonged in the conversation until he started playing heavier minutes in Memphis. Bradley spent more than half his season playing mostly against reserves. In his current role, he's All-Defense, but hasn't played there long enough to belong on the team yet in my opinion, even though I do think he is the Celtics' second best defensive player, behind only KG.
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you guys continue to use these on/off stats when a more reliable, less dependant on variables. stat is readily available. Rondo's defensive numbers on synergy are spectacular. His and Avery's are right in line with each other and are both better than guys like Westbtook, Rubio, etc.
http://www.mysynergysports.com/?lid=corpSite
My dog's better than your dog, my dog's better than yours...
Thanks for the link, though, much appreciated. I keep thinking I'd like to check out the synergy stats myself but never go look for it so TP for making my life easier.
That said, when the PPP measure on synergy ranks Brandon Bass as the best defensive player on the Celtics (0.66 v. 0.7 for Bradley, 0.74 for Rondo and KG, 0.76 for Pietrus, 0.77 for Pierce), you have to admit all the stats are subject to interpretation and qualification. None are infallible. And superiority depends on the purposes for which it's being used.
As far as the "SG as PG" on the All Defensive team, I don't think it matters. Really, when it comes to defense, it doesn't break down to PG, SG, SF, PF, C anymore. Really, it's on-ball (both Rondo and Bradley can fall in this category), perimeter (Pierce and Pietrus, guys like Deng, Lebron and Wade) and big (KG, Chandler, Howard, Perk, Ibaka all go in this group) defenders. Rondo might be the offensive point guard, but in many matchups, Bradley is the guy defending the point. Distinguishing by perimeter and on-ball as opposed to guard and forward might help more of the best players make the first team. One of each has to be there to make sure that position is represented, then the next two best players. So if it ends up with 1 big, 3 perimeter and 1 on-ball, or any other 1-1-3 or 1-2-2 combination, so be it.
For me, I'd go Rondo, Iguodala and Lebron, KG and Chandler on my first team. CP3, TA and Deng, Ibaka and Howard on my second team. I like guys like Taj Gibson, but if you're not playing major minutes against starters, I don't think you should be in the running. That's why as great as TA was defensively while here, I don't really think he belonged in the conversation until he started playing heavier minutes in Memphis. Bradley spent more than half his season playing mostly against reserves. In his current role, he's All-Defense, but hasn't played there long enough to belong on the team yet in my opinion, even though I do think he is the Celtics' second best defensive player, behind only KG.
preciate you checking out the synergy stats. While the ppp stat does rely on several factors, i feel like ppp in isolation situations, % scored against in iso, and fg% against in isolation situations are very indicative of how good an individual defender a player is, since they do not take into account help defense and what not.