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Celtics Basketball => Celtics Talk => Topic started by: LarBrd33 on April 05, 2012, 06:46:04 PM

Title: Should the Celtics offer Deron Williams the max this summer?
Post by: LarBrd33 on April 05, 2012, 06:46:04 PM
I want to talk to you folks about cap space and Deron Williams.  I'm encouraged by Boston's recent play.  I still say we are undermanned, but we are showing encouraging signs.  KG still has game.  It probably makes sense to bring him back next year even at his age.  We will have options this offseason.  We could just try to bring back the same team... or we could renounce everyone and target a major free agent.

As far as I can tell, there is only one "franchise" player likely available this offseason and that's Deron Williams.  He has a player option for next season and he hasn't taken it.  All signs point to him being an UNRESTRICTED free agent this summer... meaning any team with cap space will be able to sign him.  

Some notes on Deron:  Top 3 point guard in this league.  Already proved capable of taking a team to the WCF.  Lead Utah to three straight 50+ win seasons as their best player and leader.  Got them out of the 1st round three times.  Did so while averaging roughly 19 points, 11 assists, 1.3 steals, 46% FG, 35% from three and 81% from the line (all without hall of famers surrounding him).  He's 27 years old and a franchise player.  MOre importantly, he's an unrestricted free agent franchise player... which should put him on top of your wish list above guys like Eric Gordon and OJ Mayo (both of which are restricted and probably unrealistic to target).  I don't think giving a max contract to Deron Williams is "overpaying".  With Dwight off the market... he's the lone "top free agent".

Not interested in hearing "Rondo is better". That opinion is irrelevant.  A basketball team does not often have an opportunity to add a "franchise player" to the mix without giving anything up.  You wouldn't need to "trade" for Deron.  You would simply need to extend him a max offer and hope he signs it.  Alas, this does not come without a price.

The "price" of landing a max talent:  First of all, I believe a "max contract" (not involving a sign-and-trade) would give him a starting salary of 17.4 mil (30% of a 58 mil cap for a 7-9 year vet).  In order to offer Deron that max deal, you'd first need to renounce the rights to Kevin Garnett, Ray Allen, Jeff Green, Brandon Bass, etc (Pietrus, Dooling, Wilcox, JO... ).   Once you RENOUNCE those rights, you are left with roughly 28 mil in cap space.  You'll need to use some of that money to sign our two 1st rounders... so lets call it 26 mil to be safe.  Presuming Deron takes the max offer (17.4 mil), you now only have 8.6 million left in cap space.  That may, in fact, price you out of bringing back Kevin Garnett (who most assume will get 10-12 mil next year), but you should have enough to bring back ONE of the following (Ray Allen, Jeff Green or Brandon Bass).   Additionally, presumably if you sign Deron Williams, the next move is to offer up Rondo on the open market to the highest bidder.  This is a tough one for a lot of Celtic fans to stomach, but it doesn't make much sense to have two dominant point guards.  I'm of the belief that the Celtics owners/management would prefer Deron over Rondo, but that's besides the point.  Once you sign Deron you can't trade him... so Rondo would have to be the guy you move.  Luckily Rondo (as a top 6 PG himself) should have significant value on the open market.  Something along the lines of a Josh Smith or a Al Jefferson isn't out of the question.  

Hypothetical Deron example 1:  Sign Deron to a max deal.  Trade Rondo straight up for Josh Smith (13 mil next season)... that leaves only aprox 6.6 mil left over.  Offer that to Jeff Green.  Team next year:  PG - Deron, SG - Jeff Green, SF - Pierce, PF - Josh Smith, C - Rookie?

Comments:  When Pierce comes off the books, you'd likely have cap space to put a 3rd young player around Smith and Deron.  Losing KG isn't desirable.

Hypothetical Deron example 2:  Sign Deron to a max deal.  Perhaps we should explore trading Rondo to a team with cap space.  Crazy EXAMPLE to highlight this concept... if you traded Rondo to Indiana for Paul George, it changes everything (and yes, I know Rondo should fetch more than George... this is a hypothetical).  Indiana could swallow Rondo's 11 mil salary and give us back Paul George's 2.5 mil.  That now frees up an additional 8.5 million in cap space for next year... 17.1 total.  Meaning, you could now go out and offer another close-to-max deal to a player of your choosing.  OR, you could bring back KG (10 mil) and Jeff Green (7 mil) and ride out next season with the following:  PG - Deron, SG - Paul George, SF - Pierce, PF - Jeff Green, C - Kevin Garnett.  YOu get the basic gist.  We could use Rondo to try to land a top 5 pick in the upcoming draft, for instance if it meant shedding significant salary.  You'd have the luxury of doing that with Deron on board.


Hypothetical Deron example 3:  I'll call this one the insane-o pipe dream hypothetical.  Sign Deron to a max contract.  Presuming the Magic flutter in the playoffs this year, I'm still entirely convinced that they will trade Dwight Howard THIS offseason.  He's only signed through next year and I still see no signs of him extending beyond that.  Seems to me, the Magic may want to trade him this offseason.  In that case, my money is still on him going to Brooklyn in a package (with Brooklyn keeping Deron, actually), but in this hypothetical we are pretending that that Boston has already convinced Deron to come on board.  Offer Rondo and both 1st rounders to Orlando for Dwight HOward.  Done.    Team heading forward:  PG - Deron, SG - Figure it out later, SF - Pierce, PF - FIgure it out later, C - Dwight Howard.   WE're officially out of cap space.  To maximize said pipe dream...  desperately beg KG and Ray to sign for the vet minimum.  Alternatively, amnesty Paul Pierce and sign a 3rd young star to play with Deron and Dwight.  Win title.

...
...

So those are your three Deron-centric hypotheticals.  That's your lone (realistic) chance of adding a "franchise player" in the offseason.  Seems to me the alternative would be to forget about the cap space entirely and just bring back KG, Ray, Green, Bass, etc using bird rights.  Then, the most we can hope to do to "improve" the team is to sign someone with mid-level exception... long-shot pipe dream at Chris Kaman, for example but more likely a Kwame Brown or something.  Of course, we'll have two late 1st rounders in the 20s to add to the mix as well... so I don't judge anyone who just wants to bring the old band back for another season or two until Pierce's contract comes off the books.

Option 3 seems to be some kind of "blow it up" involving targetting restricted free agents (Mayo, Gordon, Hibbert, for example).  With this, you run the risk of missing out on the restricted free agents when their teams match... and then you're stuck with only 25 mil in cap space... which might not even be enough to bring back everyone as-is (since you wouldn't be able to exceed the cap to sign them).
Title: Re: Should the Celtics offer Deron Williams the max this summer?
Post by: SHAQATTACK on April 05, 2012, 06:48:05 PM
Doesn't want to play for Celtics....rather have Rondo
Title: Re: Should the Celtics offer Deron Williams the max this summer?
Post by: rondohondo on April 05, 2012, 06:50:26 PM
He owns a 5 million dollar mansion in Dallas,no state income tax, it's pretty obvious where he is going....
Title: Re: Should the Celtics offer Deron Williams the max this summer?
Post by: LarBrd33 on April 05, 2012, 06:52:39 PM
He owns a 5 million dollar mansion in Dallas, it's pretty obvious where he is going....
Yes.  Fact.  I agree...   It's a fair and valid point.  Most are convinced he's going to Dallas.  Seems to me the only way we could actually land Deron is if we first traded for Dwight.  It's an interesting idea, though.

Still... purely speaking of the options it would provide... if you were Ainge would you offer Deron a max deal this offseason and just see what happens?
Title: Re: Should the Celtics offer Deron Williams the max this summer?
Post by: LarBrd33 on April 05, 2012, 06:57:55 PM
Doesn't want to play for Celtics....rather have Rondo
I'll simplify it for you since you didn't read.

Would you rather have:
Option A: Rondo + nothing
Option B: Deron Williams + Whatever Rondo fetches on the open market

Of course it's not exactly that simple since our cap situation isn't all that great.  You'd actually likely have to give up Kevin Garnett in order to sign Deron... but for the sake of argument lets look at it in a simplistic little box.  Option A or Option B?
Title: Re: Should the Celtics offer Deron Williams the max this summer?
Post by: SHAQATTACK on April 05, 2012, 07:00:24 PM
Doesn't want to play for Celtics....rather have Rondo
I'll simplify it for you since you didn't read.

Would you rather have:
Option A: Rondo + nothing
Option B: Deron Williams + Whatever Rondo fetches on the open market

Of course it's not exactly that simple since our cap situation isn't all that great.  You'd actually likely have to give up Kevin Garnett in order to sign Deron... but for the sake of argument lets look at it in a simplistic little box.  Option A or Option B?


I did ..

Answer still the same dude.

Rondo  ;D
Title: Re: Should the Celtics offer Deron Williams the max this summer?
Post by: colincb on April 05, 2012, 07:00:45 PM
Whether you want to hear it or not Rondo's better and would be a much better contract value for the same position.

Career net offensive-defensive rating BB-reference.com

Rondo 107-101=+6
DWill 113-110=+3

Rondo's superior defense (+9) more than offset's DWills superior offense. Shocker. DWill's a turnstile with an defensive rating equal to Nash's.

Title: Re: Should the Celtics offer Deron Williams the max this summer?
Post by: LarBrd33 on April 05, 2012, 07:01:10 PM
Doesn't want to play for Celtics....rather have Rondo
I'll simplify it for you since you didn't read.

Would you rather have:
Option A: Rondo + nothing
Option B: Deron Williams + Whatever Rondo fetches on the open market

Of course it's not exactly that simple since our cap situation isn't all that great.  You'd actually likely have to give up Kevin Garnett in order to sign Deron... but for the sake of argument lets look at it in a simplistic little box.  Option A or Option B?


I did ..

Answer still the same dude.

Rondo  ;D
Woah. 
Title: Re: Should the Celtics offer Deron Williams the max this summer?
Post by: LarBrd33 on April 05, 2012, 07:02:53 PM
Whether you want to hear it or not Rondo's better and would be a much better contract value for the same position.

Career net offensive-defensive rating BB-reference.com

Rondo 107-101=+6
DWill 113-110=+3

Rondo's superior defense (+9) more than offset's DWills superior offense. Shocker. DWill's a turnstile with an defensive rating equal to Nash's.


I think what i'm getting from you guys is that Rondo is more valuable than Rondo and Deron WIlliams.  Fascinating.

The guy is so awesome that he's awesomer than himself + a top 3 point guard.  Incredible.

Kevin Garnett > Kevin Garnett and Pau Gasol

Paul Pierce > Paul Pierce and LeBron James.

Love it.  I'm putting it on my book.
Title: Re: Should the Celtics offer Deron Williams the max this summer?
Post by: LooseCannon on April 05, 2012, 07:04:28 PM
I wouldn't consider it unless I already had a deal lined up that would bring back an All-Star caliber player in exchange for a Rondo-centric package.  Even then, I probably wouldn't do it if it meant KG wouldn't be coming back.
Title: Re: Should the Celtics offer Deron Williams the max this summer?
Post by: LarBrd33 on April 05, 2012, 07:06:40 PM
I wouldn't consider it unless I already had a deal lined up that would bring back an All-Star caliber player in exchange for a Rondo-centric package.  Even then, I probably wouldn't do it if it meant KG wouldn't be coming back.
Fair opinion.  If Rondo is as good as everyone seems to think... landing an all-star caliber player shouldn't be all that hard.  Seems to me Atlanta would hypothetically jump if we offered Rondo straight up for Josh Smith (who wants out and they will likely lose anyway).  In fact, Rondo should theoretically  have even more value than that, right?

I mean from what I'm hearing from some Celtic fans... Rondo is so untouchable that we shouldn't even trade him for Rondo + a top 3 point guard.

I just want to float this idea for you.  Again... hypothetical not be taken seriously.  What if I were to tell you that we had a deal lined up of Rondo to the Kings for Demarcus Cousins.  Cousins makes 4 mil next year and fits under the "allstar caliber" definition.  After signing Deron, you'd have 15.6 mil left in cap space (since Rondo was set to make 11 mil and you just shed an additional 7 mil in space)... which would be enough to probably bring back both Ray and KG.  PG - Deron, SG - Ray, SF - Pierce, PF - KG, C - Cousins  ... Hope you get my gist and don't reply by saying "Cousins is a headcase"... that's not the point.  Btw, that team would also have both 1st rounders and Avery Bradley.
Title: Re: Should the Celtics offer Deron Williams the max this summer?
Post by: blink on April 05, 2012, 07:15:49 PM
Your response doesn't make any sense.  Deron Williams has shown no interest in the C's.  And regardless of DW, we have almost zero chance of landing Dwight Howard.

I for one don't want DW or DH.  Deron is over-rated playing on a bad team, with ZERO history of being a championship leading player.

Dwight hasn't really shown that either.  He would obviously improve our big-starved team right now, but we don't have the trade fodder to get him and aren't among his top choices.

Also, you don't need to slam everyone who doesn't agree with your post.

Whether you want to hear it or not Rondo's better and would be a much better contract value for the same position.

Career net offensive-defensive rating BB-reference.com

Rondo 107-101=+6
DWill 113-110=+3

Rondo's superior defense (+9) more than offset's DWills superior offense. Shocker. DWill's a turnstile with an defensive rating equal to Nash's.


I think what i'm getting from you guys is that Rondo is more valuable than Rondo and Deron WIlliams.  Fascinating.

The guy is so awesome that he's awesomer than himself + a top 3 point guard.  Incredible.

Kevin Garnett > Kevin Garnett and Pau Gasol

Paul Pierce > Paul Pierce and LeBron James.

Love it.  I'm putting it on my book.
Title: Re: Should the Celtics offer Deron Williams the max this summer?
Post by: BballTim on April 05, 2012, 07:18:07 PM
Doesn't want to play for Celtics....rather have Rondo
I'll simplify it for you since you didn't read.

Would you rather have:
Option A: Rondo + nothing
Option B: Deron Williams + Whatever Rondo fetches on the open market

Of course it's not exactly that simple since our cap situation isn't all that great.  You'd actually likely have to give up Kevin Garnett in order to sign Deron... but for the sake of argument lets look at it in a simplistic little box.  Option A or Option B?

  Haha. Real choice:

Option A: Rondo + Whoever else you give that max contract money to
Option B: Deron Williams + Whatever Rondo fetches on the open market

  Option A is fairly competitive, that's why you're trying to slant the choices in such an obvious fashion. BTW, Deron is *arguably* a top 3 point guard, and isn't a franchise player. He's capable of leading a team to the WCF or to a bottom 5 record in the league depending on how good his teammates are.
Title: Re: Should the Celtics offer Deron Williams the max this summer?
Post by: Who on April 05, 2012, 07:25:39 PM
I would expect Garnett to be willing to take a larger pay-cut if it meant Boston signing a top notch talent under which Deron Williams certainly qualifies.

I don't think Danny would have any problem convincing KG to stay for that leftover cap space. What was it? $8.5 million? That should be fine.
Title: Re: Should the Celtics offer Deron Williams the max this summer?
Post by: Who on April 05, 2012, 07:28:02 PM
Option 4: Sign Deron Williams to max contract + all other players to one-year deals only ... and then next summer, 2013, amnesty Pierce to free up enough cap space to sign Dwight Howard as an unrestricted free agent.
Title: Re: Should the Celtics offer Deron Williams the max this summer?
Post by: LarBrd33 on April 05, 2012, 07:31:37 PM
Doesn't want to play for Celtics....rather have Rondo
I'll simplify it for you since you didn't read.

Would you rather have:
Option A: Rondo + nothing
Option B: Deron Williams + Whatever Rondo fetches on the open market

Of course it's not exactly that simple since our cap situation isn't all that great.  You'd actually likely have to give up Kevin Garnett in order to sign Deron... but for the sake of argument lets look at it in a simplistic little box.  Option A or Option B?

  Haha. Real choice:

Option A: Rondo + Whoever else you give that max contract money to
Option B: Deron Williams + Whatever Rondo fetches on the open market

  Option A is fairly competitive, that's why you're trying to slant the choices in such an obvious fashion. BTW, Deron is *arguably* a top 3 point guard, and isn't a franchise player. He's capable of leading a team to the WCF or to a bottom 5 record in the league depending on how good his teammates are.

That's a fair point.  But in option a, who are you giving the max money to that's better than Deron Williams?  Seems all the names I'm seeing are restricted free agents.  You can renounce everyone and offer Roy Hibbert a max deal, but if Indiana matches, you're outta luck.  You can renounce everyone and offer Gordon a max deal, but if the Hornets match, you're out of luck.  ANd then you are in a jam, because you only have 25 million left and you renounced all your bird rights to have a CHANCE to land those guys.  Kinda like when Golden State dumped Jeremy Lin just to have a CHANCE at signing DeAndre Jordan.

In the case with Deron... we don't have to renounce anyone until we convince Deron to come here... and if we convince Deron to come here we'll know he'll come here since he's unrestricted.  Big difference.  What I'm asking you here is... if you're danny Ainge... on 12:01am the first day of free agency do you show up at Deron's door and say, "Deron... we want to give you a max deal.  We'll build a team around you.  We have assets like Rondo that we can move for an allstar calibre running-mate of your choosing.  If you convince your buddy Dwight to demand a trade, we have assets (a package centered on rondo and our picks) to go after him..."   If Deron says "no thanks", you leave.  You didn't do any damage to your franchise.  You didn't renounce anyone.  you still retain everyone's bird rights.  My question is... do you OFFER Deron a max deal or not.  No?  You wouldn't even explore it?

I'd explore it.  I'd be a bad GM if I didn't explore it.  You don't often get a chance to add a Deron Williams type player to your team.
Title: Re: Should the Celtics offer Deron Williams the max this summer?
Post by: LooseCannon on April 05, 2012, 07:44:09 PM
I wouldn't consider it unless I already had a deal lined up that would bring back an All-Star caliber player in exchange for a Rondo-centric package.  Even then, I probably wouldn't do it if it meant KG wouldn't be coming back.
Fair opinion.  If Rondo is as good as everyone seems to think... landing an all-star caliber player shouldn't be all that hard.  Seems to me Atlanta would hypothetically jump if we offered Rondo straight up for Josh Smith (who wants out and they will likely lose anyway).  In fact, Rondo should theoretically  have even more value than that, right?

I mean from what I'm hearing from some Celtic fans... Rondo is so untouchable that we shouldn't even trade him for Rondo + a top 3 point guard.

I just want to float this idea for you.  Again... hypothetical not be taken seriously.  What if I were to tell you that we had a deal lined up of Rondo to the Kings for Demarcus Cousins.  Cousins makes 4 mil next year and fits under the "allstar caliber" definition.  After signing Deron, you'd have 15.6 mil left in cap space (since Rondo was set to make 11 mil and you just shed an additional 7 mil in space)... which would be enough to probably bring back both Ray and KG.  PG - Deron, SG - Ray, SF - Pierce, PF - KG, C - Cousins  ... Hope you get my gist and don't reply by saying "Cousins is a headcase"... that's not the point.  Btw, that team would also have both 1st rounders and Avery Bradley.

I think Rondo is the sort of player who gets undervalued because scoring is not his primary skill.  So, I think it will be hard to get back equal talent if you are trading away Rondo.

I think DeMarcus Cousins has All-Star potential, but isn't there yet.

My absolute favorite scenario for the Celtics is for Ainge to somehow sign restricted free agent Ryan Anderson, who I think could be better in Boston than he currently is in Orlando, while bringing back Garnett.  That should probably give you an idea of the sort of players I want to acquire.
Title: Re: Should the Celtics offer Deron Williams the max this summer?
Post by: mr. dee on April 05, 2012, 07:47:23 PM
Forget Dwill. There is much better option in the next free agency. If we sign Dwill to a max contract, that will reduce our chance to sign another max player (probably better than Dwill). I'll just stick with Rondo not because he is a better player but he is a better option. His contract is cap-friendly so we can still sign max-contract players. Resign KG, Green or anyone in the current roster then blow it up next season or two.
Title: Re: Should the Celtics offer Deron Williams the max this summer?
Post by: ianboyextreme on April 05, 2012, 07:51:12 PM
why? we have a point guard
Title: Re: Should the Celtics offer Deron Williams the max this summer?
Post by: Mazingerz on April 05, 2012, 08:03:21 PM
no thanks. his attitude is suspect. Id rather we have the rondo/bradley combo.
Title: Re: Should the Celtics offer Deron Williams the max this summer?
Post by: LarBrd33 on April 05, 2012, 08:05:07 PM
Forget Dwill. There is much better option in the next free agency. If we sign Dwill to a max contract, that will reduce our chance to sign another max player (probably better than Dwill). I'll just stick with Rondo not because he is a better player but he is a better option. His contract is cap-friendly so we can still sign max-contract players. Resign KG, Green or anyone in the current roster then blow it up next season or two.
Yeah supposedly some people seem to think there are "much better" options next year.  Signing Deron wouldn't change our chances there... and I seriously doubt you'll find a better unrestricted free agent than Deron Williams anyways.

Same hypothetical as above.  Sign Deron to max.  Trade Rondo for someone making less (Paul George, Cousins, etc), Bring ray and KG back on 1 year deals.  

Next year when Pierce falls off the books (only 5 mil guarenteed) we'd still be able to target another max guy. Cousins, for example, makes rookie money until 2015.
Title: Re: Should the Celtics offer Deron Williams the max this summer?
Post by: LarBrd33 on April 05, 2012, 08:07:39 PM
why? we have a point guard
Because you don't win championships by refusing to take risks and standing pat with mediocrity.  

I wanted everyone's opinion.  I see the overwhelming favorite is to just "bring em back".  MIght revisit this after we're eliminated from the playoffs, but right now it's a fair option.  With that said, I think Ainge offers Deron Williams a max deal as soon as free agency begins.  He kinda has to explore it or he's not doing his job.
Title: Re: Should the Celtics offer Deron Williams the max this summer?
Post by: pearljammer10 on April 05, 2012, 08:08:58 PM
I didnt vote because I didnt like any of the options...Why we we give DWill max money when we already an all star caliber point guard with one more ring than dwill has.
Title: Re: Should the Celtics offer Deron Williams the max this summer?
Post by: LarBrd33 on April 05, 2012, 08:15:20 PM
I didnt vote because I didnt like any of the options...Why we we give DWill max money when we already an all star caliber point guard with one more ring than dwill has.
Glen Davis has one more ring than LeBron James has, but I'd still rather have LeBron James.

And again this isn't about choosing between Deron and Rondo.  It's about whether or not you'd want to add Deron.  By all means... if you'd like to add Deron and keep Rondo, go for it.  But seems to me if you add a top 3 pg (deron) to go with your top 6 pg (rondo)... one of them needs to be traded.
Title: Re: Should the Celtics offer Deron Williams the max this summer?
Post by: Smutzy#9 on April 05, 2012, 08:16:05 PM
Try and Sign Kaman/ Demarcus Cousins and keep Rondo. Bring KG back for a year as a starter then sign Josh Smith when he is a free agent. We all saw what Rondo was capable of when he had good bigs that camped under the rim. 20+ assists a game no worries. Demarcus has matured since the all star break and its shown in his play, the kid will be an all star soon enough.
Title: Re: Should the Celtics offer Deron Williams the max this summer?
Post by: LarBrd33 on April 05, 2012, 08:17:03 PM
Try and Sign Kaman/ Demarcus Cousins and keep Rondo. Bring KG back for a year as a starter then sign Josh Smith when he is a free agent. We all saw what Rondo was capable of when he had good bigs that camped under the rim. 20+ assists a game no worries. Demarcus has matured since the all star break and its shown in his play, the kid will be an all star soon enough.
....  Cousins isn't a free agent

You might be able to keep Rondo (and the rest of the team) and add a big man for the MLE.  I think that prices us out of Kaman.
Title: Re: Should the Celtics offer Deron Williams the max this summer?
Post by: manl_lui on April 05, 2012, 08:34:02 PM
during the Dwight Howard drama, I actually thought if we cannot get him lets go for Deron

after all these drama ended, I kinda like this lineup. Ever since Rondo and Bradley started playing more and more together, I really like the way they play the game
Title: Re: Should the Celtics offer Deron Williams the max this summer?
Post by: Who on April 05, 2012, 08:36:19 PM
Hypothetical Deron example 1:  Sign Deron to a max deal.  Trade Rondo straight up for Josh Smith (13 mil next season)... that leaves only aprox 6.6 mil left over.  
I like this Josh Smith idea.

PG - Deron, Bradley
SG -
SF - Pierce,
PF - Josh Smith, JaJuan Johnson
C  - Garnett

They'd have that $2.5 million exception for teams who have spent up to the cap limit. A couple of key free agents still in Ray, Bass, Pietrus, J.Green and Stiemsma. I'd try to give that $2.5 million to Pietrus first, J.Green second and Stiemsma as third choice should the other two reject it. So hopefully the team gets to keep one of those three players with that exception.

Then throw in two first round picks. Hopefully get two guys capable of playing some rotation minutes for you. Lot of empty time on the wing and at backup PF.

And then minimum contract players

PG - Deron, R.Price
SG - Bradley, D.Stevenson
SF - Pierce, Evan Fournier, D.James
PF - Josh Smith, Royce White, JJ Johnson
C  - Garnett, Stiemsma
Title: Re: Should the Celtics offer Deron Williams the max this summer?
Post by: Who on April 05, 2012, 08:41:35 PM
Try and Sign Kaman/ Demarcus Cousins and keep Rondo. Bring KG back for a year as a starter then sign Josh Smith when he is a free agent. We all saw what Rondo was capable of when he had good bigs that camped under the rim. 20+ assists a game no worries. Demarcus has matured since the all star break and its shown in his play, the kid will be an all star soon enough.
....  Cousins isn't a free agent

You might be able to keep Rondo (and the rest of the team) and add a big man for the MLE.  I think that prices us out of Kaman.
I think Kaman could be available for that $5 million MLE.

Kaman could probably get $7-8 million from a lesser team but if he wants to play for a title contender, I think he'll to take the MLE.
Title: Re: Should the Celtics offer Deron Williams the max this summer?
Post by: Ogaju on April 05, 2012, 08:44:32 PM
I cannot believe that the OP posted a loaded poll question and his stated position atill failed miserably.

Why should we offer Deron when we have the best point guard in the game right now.
Title: Re: Should the Celtics offer Deron Williams the max this summer?
Post by: Marcus13 on April 05, 2012, 08:46:00 PM
I say yes.  If you can get him to sign (which I really dont see why he would) then you can figure out to do with them both next.  It makes either Rondo or Deron expendable - we could flip one for an all-star at another position
Title: Re: Should the Celtics offer Deron Williams the max this summer?
Post by: Meadowlark_Scal on April 05, 2012, 09:27:05 PM
How about keep rondo and get him some slashers to replace green, wilcox, tony allen ( whom marquis was supposed to be)...getting rid of rondo is about as dumb as it gets....really.....WHY do you keep putting it all on him,,,,and overlooking everything else.....it..ah...doesn't make sense to say the least....
Title: Re: Should the Celtics offer Deron Williams the max this summer?
Post by: BballTim on April 05, 2012, 09:33:47 PM
Doesn't want to play for Celtics....rather have Rondo
I'll simplify it for you since you didn't read.

Would you rather have:
Option A: Rondo + nothing
Option B: Deron Williams + Whatever Rondo fetches on the open market

Of course it's not exactly that simple since our cap situation isn't all that great.  You'd actually likely have to give up Kevin Garnett in order to sign Deron... but for the sake of argument lets look at it in a simplistic little box.  Option A or Option B?

  Haha. Real choice:

Option A: Rondo + Whoever else you give that max contract money to
Option B: Deron Williams + Whatever Rondo fetches on the open market

  Option A is fairly competitive, that's why you're trying to slant the choices in such an obvious fashion. BTW, Deron is *arguably* a top 3 point guard, and isn't a franchise player. He's capable of leading a team to the WCF or to a bottom 5 record in the league depending on how good his teammates are.

That's a fair point.  But in option a, who are you giving the max money to that's better than Deron Williams?  Seems all the names I'm seeing are restricted free agents.  You can renounce everyone and offer Roy Hibbert a max deal, but if Indiana matches, you're outta luck.  You can renounce everyone and offer Gordon a max deal, but if the Hornets match, you're out of luck.  ANd then you are in a jam, because you only have 25 million left and you renounced all your bird rights to have a CHANCE to land those guys.  Kinda like when Golden State dumped Jeremy Lin just to have a CHANCE at signing DeAndre Jordan.


  Maybe they don't sign a free agent, maybe they trade for a player that's already under contract.
Title: Re: Should the Celtics offer Deron Williams the max this summer?
Post by: Celtics4ever on April 05, 2012, 09:34:56 PM
No we should not offer them the max.
Title: Re: Should the Celtics offer Deron Williams the max this summer?
Post by: SHAQATTACK on April 05, 2012, 09:38:29 PM
I cannot believe that the OP posted a loaded poll question and his stated position atill failed miserably.

Why should we offer Deron when we have the best point guard in the game right now.

Slam dunk on OP  ;D
Title: Re: Should the Celtics offer Deron Williams the max this summer?
Post by: scaryjerry on April 05, 2012, 09:50:51 PM
No...what exactly has deron done for the nets and why did the jazz get rid of him? hes an overrated malcontent
Title: Re: Should the Celtics offer Deron Williams the max this summer?
Post by: SHAQATTACK on April 05, 2012, 10:13:24 PM
Offer them Dooling, and a bag of McDonalds fries.
Title: Re: Should the Celtics offer Deron Williams the max this summer?
Post by: LarBrd33 on April 05, 2012, 10:53:49 PM
I cannot believe that the OP posted a loaded poll question and his stated position atill failed miserably.

Why should we offer Deron when we have the best point guard in the game right now.
Hi welcome to Celticsblog, my friendly n00b.  I'm LarBrd33.  I play devil's advocate around here.  Nice to meet you.
Title: Re: Should the Celtics offer Deron Williams the max this summer?
Post by: hpantazo on April 05, 2012, 10:56:20 PM
I would much, much rather have Rondo
Title: Re: Should the Celtics offer Deron Williams the max this summer?
Post by: LarBrd33 on April 05, 2012, 10:59:58 PM
Doesn't want to play for Celtics....rather have Rondo
I'll simplify it for you since you didn't read.

Would you rather have:
Option A: Rondo + nothing
Option B: Deron Williams + Whatever Rondo fetches on the open market

Of course it's not exactly that simple since our cap situation isn't all that great.  You'd actually likely have to give up Kevin Garnett in order to sign Deron... but for the sake of argument lets look at it in a simplistic little box.  Option A or Option B?

  Haha. Real choice:

Option A: Rondo + Whoever else you give that max contract money to
Option B: Deron Williams + Whatever Rondo fetches on the open market

  Option A is fairly competitive, that's why you're trying to slant the choices in such an obvious fashion. BTW, Deron is *arguably* a top 3 point guard, and isn't a franchise player. He's capable of leading a team to the WCF or to a bottom 5 record in the league depending on how good his teammates are.

That's a fair point.  But in option a, who are you giving the max money to that's better than Deron Williams?  Seems all the names I'm seeing are restricted free agents.  You can renounce everyone and offer Roy Hibbert a max deal, but if Indiana matches, you're outta luck.  You can renounce everyone and offer Gordon a max deal, but if the Hornets match, you're out of luck.  ANd then you are in a jam, because you only have 25 million left and you renounced all your bird rights to have a CHANCE to land those guys.  Kinda like when Golden State dumped Jeremy Lin just to have a CHANCE at signing DeAndre Jordan.


  Maybe they don't sign a free agent, maybe they trade for a player that's already under contract.

That's a fair point too.  I almost included that footnote to hypothetical #1 in my original post, but I have a tendency to be long-winded as-is and I'm fairly certain half this board is already tuning me out.  Here's what it WOULD have said.

Hypothetical Deron example 1:  Sign Deron to a max deal.  Trade Rondo straight up for Josh Smith (13 mil next season)... that leaves only aprox 6.6 mil left over.  Offer that to Jeff Green.  Team next year:  PG - Deron, SG - Jeff Green, SF - Pierce, PF - Josh Smith, C - Rookie?

Comments:  When Pierce comes off the books, you'd likely have cap space to put a 3rd young player around Smith and Deron.  Losing KG isn't desirable.

*Footnote I cut out of OP:  Now you might look at the above and say to yourself, "If that's the best we can do... why not renounce everyone, hang onto Rondo (who you believe is better than Deron) and use our cap space to trade for a Josh Smith"...  And to that I say, "Sure.  That's fair.  If you really think Josh Smith can be had for pennies on the dollar, and really believe Rondo is better than Deron then so be it.  But if you think Josh Smith can be had for cap relief and a draft pick, then you surely must believe that Rondo is "waaaaay too much to give up" for Smith and his actual value lies somewhere around the franchise superstar level (LeBron/Dwight/etc)... in which case... please proceed to Hypothetical #3 (also known as crazy-pipe dream) where I have us signing Deron and flipping Rondo for Dwight Howard.  That's more your speed.
Title: Re: Should the Celtics offer Deron Williams the max this summer?
Post by: LarBrd33 on April 05, 2012, 11:04:42 PM
I would much, much rather have Rondo
I'm holding back from saying, "ignorance is bliss" in response to these kind of comments.  My only reaction is that I don't think people on this forum understand how good Deron Williams is... and it's understandable considering he's played his career playing in Utah and Jersey and it's doubtful hardcore Celtic fans have really given him a lot of thought.  Some folks seemed to think Deron was interchangable with Chris Paul... and yet I still see a large percentage of CelticsBlog telling that we were silly to try to trade Rondo for Chris Paul.  I say this is the epitome of Boston homerism.  Rondo is not on Chris Paul's level.  It's not close.  So where I'm confused here is if people really think the gap between CHris Paul and Deron is THAT big or if they are just responding from a very green-tinted pro-Rondo mindset.  

Despite that, I'm not suggesting we trade Rondo for Deron (i'd do it... it would make us better)... I'm suggesting we sign Deron (as a free agent) and then figure out what to do with Rondo.  I mean... If it made y'all feel better, I'd sign Deron, tell people I was going to "revolutionize the game with two star point guards ala the 70 Knicks" and just bide my time until Deron could be flipped for a Carmelo Anthony or something.  You simply don't get an opportunity to add a guy of his caliber very often. 

This mentality of "no way jose, Rondo is hella good" reminds me of Portland passing on Jordan because they already have Drexler.  I'm all about taking the best player available whether it's in the draft or free agency.  Figure out the rest later.  Franchise players don't fall out of trees.
Title: Re: Should the Celtics offer Deron Williams the max this summer?
Post by: pearljammer10 on April 05, 2012, 11:13:39 PM
I didnt vote because I didnt like any of the options...Why we we give DWill max money when we already an all star caliber point guard with one more ring than dwill has.
Glen Davis has one more ring than LeBron James has, but I'd still rather have LeBron James.

And again this isn't about choosing between Deron and Rondo.  It's about whether or not you'd want to add Deron.  By all means... if you'd like to add Deron and keep Rondo, go for it.  But seems to me if you add a top 3 pg (deron) to go with your top 6 pg (rondo)... one of them needs to be traded.

right and i would trade deron.
Title: Re: Should the Celtics offer Deron Williams the max this summer?
Post by: arctic 3.0 on April 05, 2012, 11:19:32 PM
I fail to see the fascination with d will. his done no better with a poor supporting cast in NJ than rondo would with a similar cast. what makes folks think he would be a difference maker on a rebuild here.

so, no i wouldn't do that deal.
Title: Re: Should the Celtics offer Deron Williams the max this summer?
Post by: LarBrd33 on April 05, 2012, 11:34:49 PM
I fail to see the fascination with d will. his done no better with a poor supporting cast in NJ than rondo would with a similar cast. what makes folks think he would be a difference maker on a rebuild here.

so, no i wouldn't do that deal.

He's the only franchise player available as an unrestricted free agent.  That's all
Title: Re: Should the Celtics offer Deron Williams the max this summer?
Post by: LooseCannon on April 06, 2012, 12:46:08 AM
I'm holding back from saying, "ignorance is bliss" in response to these kind of comments.  My only reaction is that I don't think people on this forum understand how good Deron Williams is... and it's understandable considering he's played his career playing in Utah and Jersey and it's doubtful hardcore Celtic fans have really given him a lot of thought.  Some folks seemed to think Deron was interchangable with Chris Paul... and yet I still see a large percentage of CelticsBlog telling that we were silly to try to trade Rondo for Chris Paul.  I say this is the epitome of Boston homerism.  Rondo is not on Chris Paul's level.  It's not close.  So where I'm confused here is if people really think the gap between CHris Paul and Deron is THAT big or if they are just responding from a very green-tinted pro-Rondo mindset.  

There exist statistics out there which could lead someone to believe that Rondo is as good as Deron Williams (WS/48) or perhaps better (adjusted +/-).  (But Chris Paul is better than either.)  Since Rondo is a couple of years younger and makes less money, that should make him more desirable even if he is slightly worse than Williams.

I will admit those stats have flaws, but I think they are better than PER.
Title: Re: Should the Celtics offer Deron Williams the max this summer?
Post by: LarBrd33 on April 06, 2012, 12:48:39 AM
I'm holding back from saying, "ignorance is bliss" in response to these kind of comments.  My only reaction is that I don't think people on this forum understand how good Deron Williams is... and it's understandable considering he's played his career playing in Utah and Jersey and it's doubtful hardcore Celtic fans have really given him a lot of thought.  Some folks seemed to think Deron was interchangable with Chris Paul... and yet I still see a large percentage of CelticsBlog telling that we were silly to try to trade Rondo for Chris Paul.  I say this is the epitome of Boston homerism.  Rondo is not on Chris Paul's level.  It's not close.  So where I'm confused here is if people really think the gap between CHris Paul and Deron is THAT big or if they are just responding from a very green-tinted pro-Rondo mindset.  

There exist statistics out there which could lead someone to believe that Rondo is as good as Deron Williams (WS/48) or perhaps better (adjusted +/-).  (But Chris Paul is better than either.)  Since Rondo is a couple of years younger and makes less money, that should make him more desirable even if he is slightly worse than Williams.

I will admit those stats have flaws, but I think they are better than PER.
Even so... this isn't about trading Rondo for Deron.  If the best player available was Carmelo Anthony, I'd say we should sign Melo and trade Pierce to the highest bidder... even if you believe (wrongly or correctly) that Pierce is better than Melo.
Title: Re: Should the Celtics offer Deron Williams the max this summer?
Post by: BballTim on April 06, 2012, 09:32:37 AM
I would much, much rather have Rondo
I'm holding back from saying, "ignorance is bliss" in response to these kind of comments.  My only reaction is that I don't think people on this forum understand how good Deron Williams is... and it's understandable considering he's played his career playing in Utah and Jersey and it's doubtful hardcore Celtic fans have really given him a lot of thought.  Some folks seemed to think Deron was interchangable with Chris Paul... and yet I still see a large percentage of CelticsBlog telling that we were silly to try to trade Rondo for Chris Paul.  I say this is the epitome of Boston homerism.  Rondo is not on Chris Paul's level.  It's not close.  So where I'm confused here is if people really think the gap between CHris Paul and Deron is THAT big or if they are just responding from a very green-tinted pro-Rondo mindset.  

  The basis of this thread seems to be that your opinions are actually facts, and if anyone disagrees with you it's either because they're total homers or because they no less about basketball than you do. Those arguments must sound pretty compelling in your mind but they don't translate that well.

  Maybe some people are less interested in the numbers players put up and more interested in the impact that they have on the game. You don't seem to have much of an answer to the poster who pointed out that some stats show Rondo to be better than Deron, or that Rondo's presence on the court has more of a positive impact for the Celts than Deron's has on the Nets. Perhaps you should come up with one before you chalk up everybody's comments to a green-tinted mindset. Maybe you should also consider whether Deron allowing opponents (from 82games) to shoot over 50% from the field and average 9 assists and 3 turnovers per 48, compared to 42%, 7.4 assists and 4.4 turnovers against Rondo, or maybe that Rondo's also a better rebounder. Again, this isn't fantasy ball we're discussing.
Title: Re: Should the Celtics offer Deron Williams the max this summer?
Post by: Moranis on April 06, 2012, 09:43:37 AM
I honestly don't believe you would have to trade Rondo if you signed Williams.  You might have to for ego and personality reasons, but I don't think you would for basketball reasons.  Williams a fairly big PG at 6'3" 210 pounds.  He is also pretty darn strong and an excellent shooter.  He would struggle with the size of SG's like Kobe, but I think he'd be fine against most SG's given his build.  As an example, Bradley is only 6'2" 180 pounds and while he is more athletic than Williams, he isn't nearly as strong as Williams is, and people around here are fine with Bradley starting at the 2 guard spot.

That said, it would seemingly make more sense to go with Williams and Bradley as the starting back court and trade Rondo for a big man (like a Josh Smith, Al Jefferson, etc.), who while maybe not as good as Rondo, would fit a lot better with the needs of the team.
Title: Re: Should the Celtics offer Deron Williams the max this summer?
Post by: bfrombleacher on April 06, 2012, 10:13:46 AM
I thought there was another alternative whereby we sign 1 year deals and enter the 2013 FA market, where Josh Smith is available.
Title: Re: Should the Celtics offer Deron Williams the max this summer?
Post by: myteamisbetterthanyours on April 06, 2012, 10:13:46 AM
You're retarded, First of all, id rather have Rondo (but thats besides the point)...

Why would u sign Deron Williams to a max deal when u have Rondo on your roster.. That just causes locker room turmoil.. KG, Pierce, and Allen would all retire if this happened.

You don't do this move from a loyalty stand point.. Loyalty is the foundation of Celtics pride, google Red Auerbach's wikipedia.. 

You don't sign another top 5 point guard, when you already have a top 5 point guard.  Get outta here with this garbage..

At this point, Celtics should be thinking about going for a need. Which is a Big. Who can rebound. Not another top tier point guard, when you already have a top tier point guard.

Go home.
Title: Re: Should the Celtics offer Deron Williams the max this summer?
Post by: Fafnir on April 06, 2012, 10:19:11 AM
I honestly don't believe you would have to trade Rondo if you signed Williams.  You might have to for ego and personality reasons, but I don't think you would for basketball reasons.  Williams a fairly big PG at 6'3" 210 pounds.  He is also pretty darn strong and an excellent shooter.  He would struggle with the size of SG's like Kobe, but I think he'd be fine against most SG's given his build.  As an example, Bradley is only 6'2" 180 pounds and while he is more athletic than Williams, he isn't nearly as strong as Williams is, and people around here are fine with Bradley starting at the 2 guard spot.

That said, it would seemingly make more sense to go with Williams and Bradley as the starting back court and trade Rondo for a big man (like a Josh Smith, Al Jefferson, etc.), who while maybe not as good as Rondo, would fit a lot better with the needs of the team.
I don't want Deron or Rondo forced into the off guard role much. Rondo doesn't have much offensive value off the ball and Deron is at his best on the ball as well.

If we were to sign Deron, at that point you need to move Rondo to somewhere better for him and the team.

Anyways its not happening, he's going to go to Dallas.
Title: Re: Should the Celtics offer Deron Williams the max this summer?
Post by: slamtheking on April 06, 2012, 11:31:08 AM
The problem I see with this thread is that the OP has an inexplicable drive to get a franchise or cornerstone player this offseason and that it just has to be this offseason.  Nevermind the fact that the only one that MAY fit this description plays the same position as our (arguably) best player.

I wouldn't sign Deron to a max deal for several reasons.  First, the only thing he really does better than Rondo is shoot.  Everything else, Rondo does as well or better.  Second, Rondo is on a far better contract which means more money will be available down the road to sign other players.

The free agent market this offseason is not terribly enticing in terms of UFAs.  Next season has a much better selection of UFAs and players that are RFAs this year but will most likely be UFAs next year after completing their qualifying contract.

I can live with resigning most of our players for one more year and taking a shot at the next FA market when there's better quality and depth AND we have more money cleared for spending (and hopefully a better handle on our younger players to see if they're worth keeping or better as trade chips).  That year we could take a run at both Hibbert and James Harden (or Josh Smith) as FA's to go possibly go with Green, Bradley, PP on his last year and our (hopefully) productive youth.  Rondo's better contract gives the team another 5-6 million to spend in that scenario so I see that as the smarter move than signing Deron to a max deal.
Title: Re: Should the Celtics offer Deron Williams the max this summer?
Post by: manl_lui on April 06, 2012, 11:36:50 AM
a hypothetical question: if we do end up getting Deron, how will the guard rotation going to be like?

Rondo/Bradley
Deron/Ray Allen (if he comes back for cheap again)

man that guard lineup would be NASTY
Title: Re: Should the Celtics offer Deron Williams the max this summer?
Post by: Moranis on April 06, 2012, 01:36:02 PM
I honestly don't believe you would have to trade Rondo if you signed Williams.  You might have to for ego and personality reasons, but I don't think you would for basketball reasons.  Williams a fairly big PG at 6'3" 210 pounds.  He is also pretty darn strong and an excellent shooter.  He would struggle with the size of SG's like Kobe, but I think he'd be fine against most SG's given his build.  As an example, Bradley is only 6'2" 180 pounds and while he is more athletic than Williams, he isn't nearly as strong as Williams is, and people around here are fine with Bradley starting at the 2 guard spot.

That said, it would seemingly make more sense to go with Williams and Bradley as the starting back court and trade Rondo for a big man (like a Josh Smith, Al Jefferson, etc.), who while maybe not as good as Rondo, would fit a lot better with the needs of the team.
I don't want Deron or Rondo forced into the off guard role much. Rondo doesn't have much offensive value off the ball and Deron is at his best on the ball as well.

If we were to sign Deron, at that point you need to move Rondo to somewhere better for him and the team.

Anyways its not happening, he's going to go to Dallas.
Billups and Paul made it work just fine until Chauncey got hurt.  I think Williams would be fine in the 2 guard spot and could easily take over Pierce's role in the offense (as Pierce takes more and more of a back seat).  From a basketball standpoint I think it would work well, but as I mentioned I'm not sure it would from all the other issues (similar to tebow going to the jets).
Title: Re: Should the Celtics offer Deron Williams the max this summer?
Post by: pearljammer10 on April 06, 2012, 01:49:08 PM
I would much, much rather have Rondo
I'm holding back from saying, "ignorance is bliss" in response to these kind of comments.  My only reaction is that I don't think people on this forum understand how good Deron Williams is... and it's understandable considering he's played his career playing in Utah and Jersey and it's doubtful hardcore Celtic fans have really given him a lot of thought.  Some folks seemed to think Deron was interchangable with Chris Paul... and yet I still see a large percentage of CelticsBlog telling that we were silly to try to trade Rondo for Chris Paul.  I say this is the epitome of Boston homerism.  Rondo is not on Chris Paul's level.  It's not close.  So where I'm confused here is if people really think the gap between CHris Paul and Deron is THAT big or if they are just responding from a very green-tinted pro-Rondo mindset.  

  The basis of this thread seems to be that your opinions are actually facts, and if anyone disagrees with you it's either because they're total homers or because they no less about basketball than you do. Those arguments must sound pretty compelling in your mind but they don't translate that well.

  Maybe some people are less interested in the numbers players put up and more interested in the impact that they have on the game. You don't seem to have much of an answer to the poster who pointed out that some stats show Rondo to be better than Deron, or that Rondo's presence on the court has more of a positive impact for the Celts than Deron's has on the Nets. Perhaps you should come up with one before you chalk up everybody's comments to a green-tinted mindset. Maybe you should also consider whether Deron allowing opponents (from 82games) to shoot over 50% from the field and average 9 assists and 3 turnovers per 48, compared to 42%, 7.4 assists and 4.4 turnovers against Rondo, or maybe that Rondo's also a better rebounder. Again, this isn't fantasy ball we're discussing.


Beautiful. TP
Title: Re: Should the Celtics offer Deron Williams the max this summer?
Post by: Fafnir on April 06, 2012, 01:55:42 PM
Billups and Paul made it work just fine until Chauncey got hurt.  I think Williams would be fine in the 2 guard spot and could easily take over Pierce's role in the offense (as Pierce takes more and more of a back seat).  From a basketball standpoint I think it would work well, but as I mentioned I'm not sure it would from all the other issues (similar to tebow going to the jets).
I think Deron has a lot more to offer at his primary position than did Chauncey at this point.

Plus just from a salary cap perspective Chauncey was a low cost solution to their SG woes, Rondo or Williams would both be very expensive players who both are at their best with the ball in control of the offense.
Title: Re: Should the Celtics offer Deron Williams the max this summer?
Post by: soap07 on April 06, 2012, 02:16:27 PM
I cannot believe that the OP posted a loaded poll question and his stated position atill failed miserably.

Why should we offer Deron when we have the best point guard in the game right now.

We don't have the best point guard in the game. Nor do we have the second best point guard in the game - that's Deron Williams.


Title: Re: Should the Celtics offer Deron Williams the max this summer?
Post by: soap07 on April 06, 2012, 02:27:39 PM
I fail to see the fascination with d will. his done no better with a poor supporting cast in NJ than rondo would with a similar cast. what makes folks think he would be a difference maker on a rebuild here.

so, no i wouldn't do that deal.


I really don't think you have an appreciation for how bad Deron's teammates are. And the fact that he's putting up the numbers that he is with the awful teammates is impressive enough.

On the other hand, has anyone noticed that Rondo has actually regressed this year? He's shooting his lowest FG% since his rookie year (.454%). His steals are slightly below his career average and below the 2.3 of last two years. His assists are on par with his career high, which is great. He's had two years with higher PERs, and his PER is only slightly higher than last year.

12.4 points on 11.2 shots a game isn't great either.

For those that love sabremetric stats - his WS/48 is the lowest since his rookie year.

Yeah, he has his days when he's the best point guard in the league. But overall, please give me Deron.

Title: Re: Should the Celtics offer Deron Williams the max this summer?
Post by: soap07 on April 06, 2012, 02:31:53 PM
Quote
I wouldn't sign Deron to a max deal for several reasons.  First, the only thing he really does better than Rondo is shoot.  Everything else, Rondo does as well or better.  Second, Rondo is on a far better contract which means more money will be available down the road to sign other players.

I love how you just toss aside shooting as if it's nothing. Deron is on a completely different level offensively than Rondo because of his scoring ability. Yeah, Rondo is a better rebounder - but honestly, the extra rebound a game is not a huge problem when one guy is just a much better overall point guard.
Title: Re: Should the Celtics offer Deron Williams the max this summer?
Post by: soap07 on April 06, 2012, 02:35:01 PM
Quote
  Maybe some people are less interested in the numbers players put up and more interested in the impact that they have on the game. You don't seem to have much of an answer to the poster who pointed out that some stats show Rondo to be better than Deron, or that Rondo's presence on the court has more of a positive impact for the Celts than Deron's has on the Nets. Perhaps you should come up with one before you chalk up everybody's comments to a green-tinted mindset. Maybe you should also consider whether Deron allowing opponents (from 82games) to shoot over 50% from the field and average 9 assists and 3 turnovers per 48, compared to 42%, 7.4 assists and 4.4 turnovers against Rondo, or maybe that Rondo's also a better rebounder. Again, this isn't fantasy ball we're discussing.

In both real and fantasy ball, Deron is better.

How can you seriously use on/off stats to compare Deron/Rondo when both guys are on the court most of the game? It's totally misleading.
Title: Re: Should the Celtics offer Deron Williams the max this summer?
Post by: BballTim on April 06, 2012, 04:06:14 PM
I fail to see the fascination with d will. his done no better with a poor supporting cast in NJ than rondo would with a similar cast. what makes folks think he would be a difference maker on a rebuild here.

so, no i wouldn't do that deal.


I really don't think you have an appreciation for how bad Deron's teammates are. And the fact that he's putting up the numbers that he is with the awful teammates is impressive enough.

On the other hand, has anyone noticed that Rondo has actually regressed this year? He's shooting his lowest FG% since his rookie year (.454%). His steals are slightly below his career average and below the 2.3 of last two years. His assists are on par with his career high, which is great. He's had two years with higher PERs, and his PER is only slightly higher than last year.


  Most players fg% varies from year to year, they don't stay the same or go up every year. That's not regression, that's typical noise. His steals may be down but his defense is as good or better than it was last year. PER is generally a stat that measures individual production, not necessarily impact, and it favors scorers.
Title: Re: Should the Celtics offer Deron Williams the max this summer?
Post by: BballTim on April 06, 2012, 04:07:11 PM
I cannot believe that the OP posted a loaded poll question and his stated position atill failed miserably.

Why should we offer Deron when we have the best point guard in the game right now.

We don't have the best point guard in the game. Nor do we have the second best point guard in the game - that's Deron Williams.




  That's a pretty debatable claim, whether you realize it or not.
Title: Re: Should the Celtics offer Deron Williams the max this summer?
Post by: BballTim on April 06, 2012, 04:08:49 PM
Quote
I wouldn't sign Deron to a max deal for several reasons.  First, the only thing he really does better than Rondo is shoot.  Everything else, Rondo does as well or better.  Second, Rondo is on a far better contract which means more money will be available down the road to sign other players.

I love how you just toss aside shooting as if it's nothing. Deron is on a completely different level offensively than Rondo because of his scoring ability. Yeah, Rondo is a better rebounder - but honestly, the extra rebound a game is not a huge problem when one guy is just a much better overall point guard.

  Shooting isn't nothing, but it isn't everything, especially for a point guard.
Title: Re: Should the Celtics offer Deron Williams the max this summer?
Post by: BballTim on April 06, 2012, 04:12:30 PM
Quote
  Maybe some people are less interested in the numbers players put up and more interested in the impact that they have on the game. You don't seem to have much of an answer to the poster who pointed out that some stats show Rondo to be better than Deron, or that Rondo's presence on the court has more of a positive impact for the Celts than Deron's has on the Nets. Perhaps you should come up with one before you chalk up everybody's comments to a green-tinted mindset. Maybe you should also consider whether Deron allowing opponents (from 82games) to shoot over 50% from the field and average 9 assists and 3 turnovers per 48, compared to 42%, 7.4 assists and 4.4 turnovers against Rondo, or maybe that Rondo's also a better rebounder. Again, this isn't fantasy ball we're discussing.

In both real and fantasy ball, Deron is better.

How can you seriously use on/off stats to compare Deron/Rondo when both guys are on the court most of the game? It's totally misleading.

  How can you seriously use stats that show individual production and don't take things into account like how well they control the pace of the game, run an offense, or create better opportunities for their teammates? That's very misleading as well.
Title: Re: Should the Celtics offer Deron Williams the max this summer?
Post by: Daedalus on April 06, 2012, 04:34:37 PM
We already have a star point guard.  Deron Williams is a nice player, but I don't think he's worth the max, particularly when the star point guard already on the team costs half that.

There's plenty of evidence from the last two seasons that Deron is not good enough to carry a team on his own to even a .500 record.  A max player should be able to do that.

Title: Re: Should the Celtics offer Deron Williams the max this summer?
Post by: Fafnir on April 06, 2012, 04:43:10 PM
We already have a star point guard.  Deron Williams is a nice player, but I don't think he's worth the max, particularly when the star point guard already on the team costs half that.

There's plenty of evidence from the last two seasons that Deron is not good enough to carry a team on his own to even a .500 record.  A max player should be able to do that.

Not really, there are only a handful of those guys in the league. Certainly less than their are max contract players.

Max players aren't just the guys who are really worth 40 million per year (MVP caliber guys), but also other elite players who aren't in that same category.
Title: Re: Should the Celtics offer Deron Williams the max this summer?
Post by: Celtics18 on April 06, 2012, 05:03:58 PM
We already have a star point guard.  Deron Williams is a nice player, but I don't think he's worth the max, particularly when the star point guard already on the team costs half that.

There's plenty of evidence from the last two seasons that Deron is not good enough to carry a team on his own to even a .500 record.  A max player should be able to do that.

Not really, there are only a handful of those guys in the league. Certainly less than their are max contract players.

Max players aren't just the guys who are really worth 40 million per year (MVP caliber guys), but also other elite players who aren't in that same category.

Then there are guys like Rondo who are max players playing on less than maximum contracts. 
Title: Re: Should the Celtics offer Deron Williams the max this summer?
Post by: soap07 on April 06, 2012, 05:50:17 PM
Quote
  How can you seriously use stats that show individual production and don't take things into account like how well they control the pace of the game, run an offense, or create better opportunities for their teammates? That's very misleading as well.

A very good point! Let's do that. Let's take into account how well they "control the pace of the game, run an offense, or create better opportunities for their teammates.

Celtics Offensive Efficiency: 99.4 (25th in the league)
Nets Offensive Efficiency: 100.1 (21st in the league)

So Deron, with far less talent around him, runs an offense that is better than the Celtics - which is actually among the worst in the league.

We could also look at individual production. Let me know which stats of those you'd like to compare either career or this year, because I know you won't bring up PER, WS/48, assist percentage, FG%, career turnover rate, FT%, points per game, etc etc.




Title: Re: Should the Celtics offer Deron Williams the max this summer?
Post by: soap07 on April 06, 2012, 05:53:57 PM
Quote

  Most players fg% varies from year to year, they don't stay the same or go up every year. That's not regression, that's typical noise. His steals may be down but his defense is as good or better than it was last year. PER is generally a stat that measures individual production, not necessarily impact, and it favors scorers.

45% is bad for a guy who doesn't get to the line, hit his free throws and can't shoot 3's. I agree that FG% varies from year to year. And the years they are low for all players constitutes a down year. It's not just his FG% that is down either.

PER measures "individual production" as you said, and if that is down, that apparently that doesn't count as regression....okay? Also, he's averaging a career high in turnovers - which I won't kill him for though, he is averaging 11 assists a game.

Title: Re: Should the Celtics offer Deron Williams the max this summer?
Post by: Fafnir on April 06, 2012, 05:56:07 PM
Quote
  How can you seriously use stats that show individual production and don't take things into account like how well they control the pace of the game, run an offense, or create better opportunities for their teammates? That's very misleading as well.

A very good point! Let's do that. Let's take into account how well they "control the pace of the game, run an offense, or create better opportunities for their teammates.

Celtics Offensive Efficiency: 99.4 (25th in the league)
Nets Offensive Efficiency: 100.1 (21st in the league)

So Deron, with far less talent around him, runs an offense that is better than the Celtics - which is actually among the worst in the league.

We could also look at individual production. Let me know which stats of those you'd like to compare either career or this year, because I know you won't bring up PER, WS/48, assist percentage, FG%, career turnover rate, FT%, points per game, etc etc.





The main reason they are better offensively is that they are a much superior offensive rebounding team.

Deron doesn't cause that.
Title: Re: Should the Celtics offer Deron Williams the max this summer?
Post by: Meadowlark_Scal on April 06, 2012, 09:45:27 PM
What Deron does on that team is hardly a reason to bring him here....like Fafnir said...THEY REBOUND..and they are probably an overall younger team. Rondo does it all, and now he shoots well too...! He has INVENTED passes, most won't even be able to mimic, and moves....his main problems are that the rest of the team cannot run UP the floor, cannot rebound, and cannot return on the floor....look at what is happeneing with bradley now, another player who, like TA, can and will run with Rondo...BANG...unstoppable results.....look at how rondo used to setup Wilcox..GIVE THIS GUY SOME TEAM MATES WHO CAN RUN...and watch out..!
Title: Re: Should the Celtics offer Deron Williams the max this summer?
Post by: Daedalus on April 06, 2012, 09:50:26 PM
We already have a star point guard.  Deron Williams is a nice player, but I don't think he's worth the max, particularly when the star point guard already on the team costs half that.

There's plenty of evidence from the last two seasons that Deron is not good enough to carry a team on his own to even a .500 record.  A max player should be able to do that.

Not really, there are only a handful of those guys in the league. Certainly less than their are max contract players.

Max players aren't just the guys who are really worth 40 million per year (MVP caliber guys), but also other elite players who aren't in that same category.

In my mind, there are max players -- guys who can carry a team -- and then there are elite players who get max contracts.  There are only a handful of the former, and a few times more of the latter.

If you already have a max player on your team, it could make sense to give a max contract to a player who is just elite.  Otherwise, I think it probably makes more sense to preserve cap space or get two or more productive players for the price of that one elite guy who can't really carry a team.
Title: Re: Should the Celtics offer Deron Williams the max this summer?
Post by: Smokeeye123 on April 06, 2012, 09:52:06 PM
Deron is only slightly better than Rondo if at all...Why offer him the MAX when we have Rondo for another 3 years at about half that?
Title: Re: Should the Celtics offer Deron Williams the max this summer?
Post by: CelticsFanNC on April 06, 2012, 10:07:36 PM
   It would be bad business to break the bank to go after a PG who is only marginally better then the one we have.

  First of all Williams is going to be paid quite a bit more then Rondo.  It's about bang for your buck.  Williams even at his best isn't enough of an improvement over Rondo to justify spending quite a bit more money on him.  Williams hasn't been at his best since leaving Utah.  

  We have other holes that are going to need to be filled with the available money.....like maybe someone who can rebound the basketball?  

  Rondo is a very good player and a great value which allows us to try to upgrade in other areas that need upgrading more then the PG spot.

  Some seem to be convinced that Williams has a better shot at attracting other marquee players then Rondo does.    I don't really buy that.
Title: Re: Should the Celtics offer Deron Williams the max this summer?
Post by: celtic -_- pride on April 06, 2012, 10:23:39 PM
no. Rondo > Williams.

i feel like williams has hit the ceiling and rondo will continue to improve.
Title: Re: Should the Celtics offer Deron Williams the max this summer?
Post by: BballTim on April 06, 2012, 10:58:08 PM
Quote
  How can you seriously use stats that show individual production and don't take things into account like how well they control the pace of the game, run an offense, or create better opportunities for their teammates? That's very misleading as well.

A very good point! Let's do that. Let's take into account how well they "control the pace of the game, run an offense, or create better opportunities for their teammates.

Celtics Offensive Efficiency: 99.4 (25th in the league)
Nets Offensive Efficiency: 100.1 (21st in the league)

So Deron, with far less talent around him, runs an offense that is better than the Celtics - which is actually among the worst in the league.

  It's true that the Nets are about a point per 100 possessions better than the Celts. But with Williams and Rondo both out of the game the difference is 3 points. Rondo makes a bigger positive impact on the Celts than Williams does on the Nets. He also made a significantly larger impact on the Celts last year than Deron did on the Nets.

We could also look at individual production. Let me know which stats of those you'd like to compare either career or this year, because I know you won't bring up PER, WS/48, assist percentage, FG%, career turnover rate, FT%, points per game, etc etc.

  Ok, just for kicks, let's bring up PER. Deron's PER is about 2 points higher than opposing PGs when he plays, Rondo's is about 6 points higher. So aside from the fact that Rondo seems to have more of a positive impact on his team than Williams and also outplays his counterpart by a significantly wider margin, your analysis is spot on.
Title: Re: Should the Celtics offer Deron Williams the max this summer?
Post by: soap07 on April 06, 2012, 11:33:43 PM
Quote
  It's true that the Nets are about a point per 100 possessions better than the Celts. But with Williams and Rondo both out of the game the difference is 3 points. Rondo makes a bigger positive impact on the Celts than Williams does on the Nets. He also made a significantly larger impact on the Celts last year than Deron did on the Nets.

Again, it's a small sample size considering how long the two are on the floor. The stat you're citing is largely irrelevant.


Quote
  Ok, just for kicks, let's bring up PER. Deron's PER is about 2 points higher than opposing PGs when he plays, Rondo's is about 6 points higher. So aside from the fact that Rondo seems to have more of a positive impact on his team than Williams and also outplays his counterpart by a significantly wider margin, your analysis is spot on.

This is...what?

So instead of doing a direct head to head comparison of PER, in which Deron steadily outperforms Rondo and has his whole career (which you, by the way, dismiss as a stat that favors scorers...interestingly enough, Deron has averaged more assists in his career than Rondo, but I'm sure you'll find someway to dismiss that)...

You compare the PERs of each point guard to how their counterparts performed in games against them and then take the difference to measure impact of a game. This is a total stretch for a number of reasons...the first of which is that Rondo plays in a much better defensive system and that having one of the best defensive big men in the game behind you is a huge boon which allows him to gamble a lot more.

 But you disregard that almost every single individual stat, both in sabremetric and traditional numbers, favor Deron. Williams also happens to run a more efficient offense.

But PER difference against counterparts is how you measure that Rondo has a bigger impact? My head

Title: Re: Should the Celtics offer Deron Williams the max this summer?
Post by: soap07 on April 06, 2012, 11:35:09 PM
Quote
The main reason they are better offensively is that they are a much superior offensive rebounding team.

Deron doesn't cause that.

Agreed....but you cannot tell me that Deron has nothing to do with it, just like Rondo's shortcomings are part of the problem of why the C's are one of the worst offensive teams in the league.
Title: Re: Should the Celtics offer Deron Williams the max this summer?
Post by: LarBrd33 on April 07, 2012, 03:29:45 AM
my god... the way some of you talk about Rondo, you'd think he was better than Magic Johnson or something.  Good lord.

He's a top 6 point guard.  I love him.  He's fantastic.  Celtics love him.  He's not going anywhere. 

Rose, Deron and Chris Paul are better.  If I could add one of those guys to my team, I'd do it.  The Nets gave up a boatload of assets just to rent Deron for a couple seasons and you're telling me you wouldn't be interested in adding him for free? 

I appreciate the loyalty to the Green, but all my tommy points are going to soap07 for talkin sense.
Title: Re: Should the Celtics offer Deron Williams the max this summer?
Post by: LarBrd33 on April 07, 2012, 03:43:56 AM
I'm a little surprised by the amount of people on here who honestly have convinced themselves that Rondo is the best point guard in the league.  He's great... don't get me wrong... but do you guys really watch basketball games that don't involve the Celtics?  His passing ability might not even be as good as Ricky Rubio.  He's got hall of famers around him (Pierce player of the month... KG is throwing his hat in as defensive player of the year) and yet the Celtics still might miss the playoffs this year.  

This is just silly.  A fan just called me "retarded" for even suggesting Deron is better than Rondo.  Come on now.

For those of you who don't understand "big picture", let me spell it out for you.  We aren't a contender this year.  Three of our 4 best players are 35+ years old.  Signing Deron Williams (young franchise player) and then moving Rondo to the highest bidder is actually probably our "best case" scenario here.  In all likeliness we are looking at several years of lotto basketball (as earliest as this season if we struggle over these last games).  I'm seeking for hypothetical long-shots that give us a wild pipe-dream hope at significant improvement next year and y'all are pooing on it, because you're misinterpreting it as "trading Rondo for Deron".  

Again... not saying we would trade Rondo for Deron.  I'm saying we sign Deron (27 year old franchise point guard) and trade Rondo for to the highest bidder (Complimentary allstar in his 20s).   All you folks poo-pooing on the idea tell me how else we are going to end up with two young allstars next year + Paul Pierce and MAYBE KG...

Sure, we can wait until 2 years from now and try our luck.  Fine.  Let's try that.  But Danny is a smart GM... I'm sure he'll try his luck this offseason to expedite the process.  

Sometimes it's hard NOT to respond in a condescending manner when I read some of the posts in this thread.  Let me try to make this easier.  Say you are starving to death.  You have a shiny green apple, an old orange and an old banana.  What if I told you that there was a way to have Two red apples, an old orange and an old banana.  What equals more food?  I see it as an upgrade of 1 apple to 2 apples... you guys see it as "NO WAY... Can't give up the green apple!.. it's green!... Green apples are way better!"
Title: Re: Should the Celtics offer Deron Williams the max this summer?
Post by: mr. dee on April 07, 2012, 04:16:02 AM
You can't convince people that Dwill can carry the franchise. He can't even carry the nets out of lottery. Trading Rondo away for a max player that have double the amount of his contract and signing dwill for max will kill our cap flexibility.

To tell you, I think even Red wouldn't trade Rondo either if he is the only best player on the team. He traded an all-star in Ed Macauley for Bill Russell but that's because Bob Cousy is still on the team. He traded a valuable piece in Gerald Henderson for a top pick in Len Bias because Larry Bird is still in his prime. Unless this team have another young proven on the team, you don't  just trade star players for the sake of trading. Name me players we can get at the expense of Rondo.
Title: Re: Should the Celtics offer Deron Williams the max this summer?
Post by: jdz101 on April 07, 2012, 05:30:52 AM

The "price" of landing a max talent:  First of all, I believe a "max contract" (not involving a sign-and-trade) would give him a starting salary of 17.4 mil (30% of a 58 mil cap for a 7-9 year vet).  In order to offer Deron that max deal, you'd first need to renounce the rights to Kevin Garnett, Ray Allen, Jeff Green, Brandon Bass, etc (Pietrus, Dooling, Wilcox, JO... ).   Once you RENOUNCE those rights, you are left with roughly 28 mil in cap space.  You'll need to use some of that money to sign our two 1st rounders... so lets call it 26 mil to be safe.  Presuming Deron takes the max offer (17.4 mil), you now only have 8.6 million left in cap space.  That may, in fact, price you out of bringing back Kevin Garnett (who most assume will get 10-12 mil next year), but you should have enough to bring back ONE of the following (Ray Allen, Jeff Green or Brandon Bass).   Additionally, presumably if you sign Deron Williams, the next move is to offer up Rondo on the open market to the highest bidder.  This is a tough one for a lot of Celtic fans to stomach, but it doesn't make much sense to have two dominant point guards.  I'm of the belief that the Celtics owners/management would prefer Deron over Rondo, but that's besides the point.  Once you sign Deron you can't trade him... so Rondo would have to be the guy you move.  Luckily Rondo (as a top 6 PG himself) should have significant value on the open market.  Something along the lines of a Josh Smith or a Al Jefferson isn't out of the question.  


What about the rookie and bird exceptions? (especially to sign KG)

Why would you trade away Kevin's good friend if you're planning to convince him to resign?

Just wow.
Title: Re: Should the Celtics offer Deron Williams the max this summer?
Post by: LarBrd33 on April 07, 2012, 07:02:15 AM
You can't convince people that Dwill can carry the franchise. He can't even carry the nets out of lottery. Trading Rondo away for a max player that have double the amount of his contract and signing dwill for max will kill our cap flexibility.

To tell you, I think even Red wouldn't trade Rondo either if he is the only best player on the team. He traded an all-star in Ed Macauley for Bill Russell but that's because Bob Cousy is still on the team. He traded a valuable piece in Gerald Henderson for a top pick in Len Bias because Larry Bird is still in his prime. Unless this team have another young proven on the team, you don't  just trade star players for the sake of trading. Name me players we can get at the expense of Rondo.
How many times do I have to say this.  We wouldn't be trading Rondo for Deron in my hypothetical.  We'd be signing Deron and then presumably trading the lesser point guard (Rondo) for an allstar who plays a different position. 

Also I'm not sure why people in this thread keep bringing up Deron's season in Jersey like it somehow proves Rondo is better than him.  That's completely ridiculous.  Deron Williams took Utah to the Western Conference finals and three straight 50+ win years.  You're holding it against him that he isn't getting it done with Kris Humphries and Anthony MOrrow?  Lol. Come on guys let's try a bit harder. 

Man it sure would be fun to see how well Rondo would do with Kris Humphries and Anthony Morrow as his best players, though.  I imagine more points and a lot less assists... his lack of shooting ability would bury him.
Title: Re: Should the Celtics offer Deron Williams the max this summer?
Post by: greenhead85 on April 07, 2012, 07:53:15 AM
Shoot. Will really miss Rondo’s plays when this Deron acquisition materializes. Rondo runs a team’s offense better than most PGs. DWill can perform similarly plus he has a lot more to offer especially on the offensive end.

An unrestricted FA All-Star is a rare opportunity these days. I just wish we get a good shot – er, a slamdunk – on this one.
Title: Re: Should the Celtics offer Deron Williams the max this summer?
Post by: BballTim on April 07, 2012, 08:38:29 AM
Quote
  It's true that the Nets are about a point per 100 possessions better than the Celts. But with Williams and Rondo both out of the game the difference is 3 points. Rondo makes a bigger positive impact on the Celts than Williams does on the Nets. He also made a significantly larger impact on the Celts last year than Deron did on the Nets.

Again, it's a small sample size considering how long the two are on the floor. The stat you're citing is largely irrelevant.

  It's closing in on a thousand minutes this year. Throw in last year, it's well over that. It's not a small sample size, you're just trying to ignore it because you have no answer for it.

Quote
  Ok, just for kicks, let's bring up PER. Deron's PER is about 2 points higher than opposing PGs when he plays, Rondo's is about 6 points higher. So aside from the fact that Rondo seems to have more of a positive impact on his team than Williams and also outplays his counterpart by a significantly wider margin, your analysis is spot on.

This is...what?

So instead of doing a direct head to head comparison of PER, in which Deron steadily outperforms Rondo and has his whole career (which you, by the way, dismiss as a stat that favors scorers...interestingly enough, Deron has averaged more assists in his career than Rondo, but I'm sure you'll find someway to dismiss that)...

  Sure, Deron has better career numbers than Rondo, he was a top 5 pick in the draft and developed faster than Rondo. I'm not saying that he wasn't better than Rondo a few years ago.


You compare the PERs of each point guard to how their counterparts performed in games against them and then take the difference to measure impact of a game. This is a total stretch for a number of reasons...the first of which is that Rondo plays in a much better defensive system and that having one of the best defensive big men in the game behind you is a huge boon which allows him to gamble a lot more.

  Rondo's opposing efg%, assists allowed and turnovers forced were well better than what Williams does now when Rondo was a rookie and we didn't have KG and that system. Your answer was made up out of whole cloth.

But you disregard that almost every single individual stat, both in sabremetric and traditional numbers, favor Deron. Williams also happens to run a more efficient offense.

  Haha. Maybe if you  claim another 20 times that Deron runs a more efficient offense people will forget that it's more efficient than ours when Deron and Rondo are on the bench, not when they're in the game. Or that it's more efficient because of offensive rebounding. Keep trying...
Title: Re: Should the Celtics offer Deron Williams the max this summer?
Post by: Donoghus on April 07, 2012, 09:33:13 AM
I'd rather have the cost efficient point guard who already knows the system than getting a slight upgrade at a max contract where I don't think the talent increase justifies the increased cap hit. 

Keep Rondo and give yourself more flexibility with finding complementary pieces.
Title: Re: Should the Celtics offer Deron Williams the max this summer?
Post by: LooseCannon on April 07, 2012, 09:46:47 AM
For those of you who don't understand "big picture", let me spell it out for you.  We aren't a contender this year.  Three of our 4 best players are 35+ years old.  Signing Deron Williams (young franchise player) and then moving Rondo to the highest bidder is actually probably our "best case" scenario here.

Keeping Rondo and overpaying a restricted free agent such as Ryan Anderson so that Orlando doesn't match is a better scenario than signing Deron Williams for the maximum and getting whatever you can get for Rondo (even if you could trade him straight up for Josh Smith).
Title: Re: Should the Celtics offer Deron Williams the max this summer?
Post by: bfrombleacher on April 07, 2012, 10:05:06 AM
a hypothetical question: if we do end up getting Deron, how will the guard rotation going to be like?

Rondo/Bradley
Deron/Ray Allen (if he comes back for cheap again)

man that guard lineup would be NASTY

Amidst all this infighting among Celtic brethren some peace, TP for that.

And yes. That lineup would be nasty. Actually, is it that insane of an idea? It would be very much like the LA Clippers, except with a healthy Deron Williams and a healthier-than-Chris-Paul Rondo leading the way versus Billups.
Title: Re: Should the Celtics offer Deron Williams the max this summer?
Post by: soap07 on April 07, 2012, 10:07:25 AM
Quote
 Haha. Maybe if you  claim another 20 times that Deron runs a more efficient offense people will forget that it's more efficient than ours when Deron and Rondo are on the bench, not when they're in the game. Or that it's more efficient because of offensive rebounding. Keep trying...

The Nets' offensive efficiency when Deron is on the court: 106.2
The Celtics offensive efficiency when Rondo is on the court: 105.0

I'm sure once again you'll find a way to explain to me that Rondo actually, in spite of overwhelming evidence, runs a more efficient offense.

No, but seriously, we can keep pretending like the on/off court comparison matters too if you'd like.
Title: Re: Should the Celtics offer Deron Williams the max this summer?
Post by: Celtics18 on April 07, 2012, 10:18:12 AM
my god... the way some of you talk about Rondo, you'd think he was better than Magic Johnson or something.  Good lord.

He's a top 6 point guard.  I love him.  He's fantastic.  Celtics love him.  He's not going anywhere.  

Rose, Deron and Chris Paul are better.  If I could add one of those guys to my team, I'd do it.  The Nets gave up a boatload of assets just to rent Deron for a couple seasons and you're telling me you wouldn't be interested in adding him for free?  

I appreciate the loyalty to the Green, but all my tommy points are going to soap07 for talkin sense.

First of all, starting with the hyperbole that anyone is saying that Rondo is better than Magic Johnson is an underhanded way to begin an argument.  Nobody is saying that.  I will treat your arguments with enough respect to realize that you are not saying that Deron Williams is better than Magic Johnson. 

All some of are saying is that the difference in talent level and team impact between Rajon Rondo and Deron Williams is not as large as you may believe, if it exists as all. 

That's a debatable point.  If you disagree, feel free to debate it.  Your condescending attitude and your apparent belief that anyone who disagrees with you is completely ignorant about what constitutes basketball talent shows an incredible arrogance.

You haven't really given any compelling arguments to back up your thesis.  Soap07 is doing a much better job of trying to back up his arguments.  Yours seems to consist primarily of; "everybody knows it, and I say it, therefore it's true, and if you don't see it, you are a fool."

Keep arguing your point.  I have no problem with that, but please stop with the dismissive attitude towards anyone who disagrees with you.  It's become a pattern with you, and I challenge you to be able to post your ideas here in a civil and respectful matter. 
Title: Re: Should the Celtics offer Deron Williams the max this summer?
Post by: SHAQATTACK on April 07, 2012, 10:19:06 AM
We have a good deal with Rondo,  that good deal in terms of money should be put toward a top 5 or 10 active Center where we need  help so bad.
Title: Re: Should the Celtics offer Deron Williams the max this summer?
Post by: chambers on April 07, 2012, 10:34:32 AM
I wouldn't be upset if we got Deron, but I'm not sure if we need to get him.
Rondo is consistently improving, and his contract is very friendly. I would actually say no to the Deron pursuit unless it meant we could get Howard with him.
Rondo's jumpshot is just getting better and better and it makes me think *hope* that he can improve his free throw shooting to somewhere around 75%.
I think that if Rondo did this, he becomes the better player.
I think it's close now, but Deron has the edge- I don't see Deron improving much, but I feel Rondo might only be 75 to 80% of what he could realistically achieve as a player and utilize as a skill set.



Right now, Deron is better because of his jump shot and offense is always more valuable in the NBA than defense- his strength in the pick and roll is on par with Chris Paul and Nash.
Rondo is faster, a better defender, is a better passer and has a higher bball IQ but his shooting, attitude fluctuations and the need for good shooters around him to make him truly effective limit him- I also beleive that Deron (or anyone for that matter apart from Nash) wouldn't be able to find those shooters as well as Rondo does so it's a give/take situation.

Edge goes to Deron right now, but Rondo's value and his potential are greater in my opinion.
Magic Johnson thinks Rondo is the best PG in the league but to the guy who just said 'Deron can't even get the Nets out of being a lottery team', do you honestly think that Rondo could get that pathetic line up out of the bottom 4 teams too? Highly unlikely, the Nets suck and if Deron goes to the Mavericks you'll see him shine.
I say that I wouldn't pursue Deron BUT taking Larbrd33's intent into consideration
 If I knew I could get him and trade Rondo for a superstar I have to pull the trigger. Ie: get Deron, go after Dwight. If that fails go after Gasol hard. The inside outside tandem would just be nasty.
Title: Re: Should the Celtics offer Deron Williams the max this summer?
Post by: the_Bird on April 07, 2012, 10:46:54 AM
I don't know if this point has already been made, but the problem with signing Deron Williams is that we can say with a pretty high level of certainty that Rondo doesn't have much trade value around the league.  You know that Danny was letting teams know he was available; he wasn't getting terribly good offers (if he did, Rondo would be gone right now). 

Then, add in the fact that teams are going to know that Danny would be desperate to move Rondo.

So yeah, you *might* incrementally improve the team by signing Deron.  You're going to have to get rid of Rondo, and I really don't think you're going to get all that much for him. 
Title: Re: Should the Celtics offer Deron Williams the max this summer?
Post by: alajet on April 07, 2012, 10:47:41 AM
Well, the topic asks about the offer. It's not a direct comparison between point guards. Topic holder just asks whether you would, as a GM, consider going after Deron or not.
The answer is simple. Of course, you would. And surely, DA will try to make a move in that direction. No direct indication of his lack of trust in Rondo's capabilities. In fact, if this recent stretch did not convince him about Rondo's leadership skills, nothing will. But when you see a franchise player without a contract in the market, and you have the cap space to make a move on him, you generally try to do something about it.

For me, Deron slightly outclasses Paul and Rondo is not far behind at the third spot overall. Yeah, Rose and Westbrook, in my opinion, are more of combo guards, not pure point guards as my top three, so, I could exclude them from an overall list.
So, this leads to the question of what you get in return of a possible Rajon trade. The problem is, although Rajon is nowhere near being a basketball deity, you will still end up as the losing side of a possible trade.
Names that are thrown around are simply unacceptable. Josh Smith, Mr. Inconsistency (he's having a great season, hats off to him, but anyone willing to bet on his next season production?). Cousins, well, someone demanding a trade as a sophomore. He thinks he is a superstar and he is NOT. At least, not yet.
Paul George? I love his game and he still has areas to improve. But I just can't see how a George-Rondo trade would favor our team.
A Rondo for Gasol trade rumor was flying around back in March, but I don't see it as the greatest benefit ever, either. If Rajon could have helped the team in landing a proven center (show me a good one not named Howard or Bynum), I'd immediately try to sign Deron and trade Rajon. But we know that such trade isn't quite probable to happen.

I merge this points with my logic and can say comfortably that we stick to Rajon.
But in reality, DA is going to make that offer, get rejected and Deron will probably join Dirk in Mavs next season.
Title: Re: Should the Celtics offer Deron Williams the max this summer?
Post by: GreenFaith1819 on April 07, 2012, 10:55:43 AM
No.

We already have a top-flight PG, who is getting better.
Title: Re: Should the Celtics offer Deron Williams the max this summer?
Post by: BballTim on April 07, 2012, 11:04:57 AM
Quote
 Haha. Maybe if you  claim another 20 times that Deron runs a more efficient offense people will forget that it's more efficient than ours when Deron and Rondo are on the bench, not when they're in the game. Or that it's more efficient because of offensive rebounding. Keep trying...

The Nets' offensive efficiency when Deron is on the court: 106.2
The Celtics offensive efficiency when Rondo is on the court: 105.0

I'm sure once again you'll find a way to explain to me that Rondo actually, in spite of overwhelming evidence, runs a more efficient offense.

No, but seriously, we can keep pretending like the on/off court comparison matters too if you'd like.

  Sorry if this is hard for you to see. From your numbers, the Nets are 21st in offensive efficiency. So I guess that your claim must be that there are 20 point guards in the league that run an offense better than Deron does. Other people might consider the fact that a player's teammates might have something to do with how good the offense is.

  You're trying to claim that Deron doesn't have success because of his teammates, yet you're also claiming that how those players fare when Deron's not playing is somehow irrelevant to the conversation.  You can't have it both ways.  
Title: Re: Should the Celtics offer Deron Williams the max this summer?
Post by: BballTim on April 07, 2012, 11:17:49 AM
Man it sure would be fun to see how well Rondo would do with Kris Humphries and Anthony Morrow as his best players, though.  I imagine more points and a lot less assists... his lack of shooting ability would bury him.

  At the beginning of the year PP was either out or playing like garbage and KG was playing like he was in his 40s. Rondo still managed to get his assists and his scoring went up by a fair amount. Historically, every time one or more of the big three go out of the lineup Rondo's stats get better. If you've got any evidence that Rondo's assists would drop with other players around him (say, younger players that could run the break with him?) I'd love to hear it. Otherwise I'll claim that your assessment of Rondo is way off.

  You keep talking about the big picture. The *real* big picture is that some people here disagree with your opinions and aren't really swayed by "I'm right because I said so" or "only a homer would disagree with me". That's especially true if you are (and you seem to be) unable to refute the argument that others make.
Title: Re: Should the Celtics offer Deron Williams the max this summer?
Post by: alajet on April 07, 2012, 11:35:56 AM
Quote
 Haha. Maybe if you  claim another 20 times that Deron runs a more efficient offense people will forget that it's more efficient than ours when Deron and Rondo are on the bench, not when they're in the game. Or that it's more efficient because of offensive rebounding. Keep trying...

The Nets' offensive efficiency when Deron is on the court: 106.2
The Celtics offensive efficiency when Rondo is on the court: 105.0

I'm sure once again you'll find a way to explain to me that Rondo actually, in spite of overwhelming evidence, runs a more efficient offense.

No, but seriously, we can keep pretending like the on/off court comparison matters too if you'd like.

  Sorry if this is hard for you to see. From your numbers, the Nets are 21st in offensive efficiency. So I guess that your claim must be that there are 20 point guards in the league that run an offense better than Deron does. Other people might consider the fact that a player's teammates might have something to do with how good the offense is.

  You're trying to claim that Deron doesn't have success because of his teammates, yet you're also claiming that how those players fare when Deron's not playing is somehow irrelevant to the conversation.  You can't have it both ways.  

Totally agreed. It's pretty much as irrelevant as making a direct comparison between the two by looking at defensive efficiencies of their respective teams when they're on the court and making a judgement based on that.
For a team that turns the ball over and over, and gets very little out of offensive rebounds, and also plays at a very slow pace in general, I really wonder what kind of offensive efficiency number people are looking for within this system.
Title: Re: Should the Celtics offer Deron Williams the max this summer?
Post by: Jon on April 07, 2012, 12:18:52 PM
You really have to be careful who you hand out max contracts to.  Signing a guy like Williams to a max deal could work for a team that already has the #1 guy on the team (think like a Durant or Howard).  But I don't think we have that kind of guy in Rondo, so I wouldn't blow valuable cap space on a guy who in the best case is a #2 guy on a championship team.

To compound problems, he's also a PG.  And while he and Rondo could potentially coexist, what happens if they can't?  Then you put yourself in a situation where you have to trade one of them, and there's no guarantee you get back anywhere close to equal value if teams know you have to make a trade. 

Too much risk to blow that kind of cap space.  We need to either sign a top 5-10 player in the NBA with that kind of money or build up assets so we can acquire one. 
Title: Re: Should the Celtics offer Deron Williams the max this summer?
Post by: the_Bird on April 07, 2012, 01:26:26 PM
To compound problems, he's also a PG.  And while he and Rondo could potentially coexist, what happens if they can't?  Then you put yourself in a situation where you have to trade one of them, and there's no guarantee you get back anywhere close to equal value if teams know you have to make a trade. 

I don't think there's any possible way you'd make that offer to Deron Williams without a plan to trade Rondo for a big - that's just nonsensical.  At the very least, clearing out his contract to make a run for Dwight Howard in 2013.  You can't have close to $30M tied up between two point guards, and if you play them together you still haven't solved the problem of Rondo being on the floor and unable to shoot.  You can't play Rondo at the 2-guard, he's got to have the ball in his hands to do what he does best).  Deron Williams isn't going to sign here to *not* play point guard. 

And that's the problem - what appears to be a decided lack of interest in other teams who want Rondo.

So, I agree with you - it doesn't work because he's a PG.  I just don't think they would even considering making a max-offer to Williams without having a trade plan for Rondo already lined up.
Title: Re: Should the Celtics offer Deron Williams the max this summer?
Post by: Jon on April 07, 2012, 02:17:45 PM
To compound problems, he's also a PG.  And while he and Rondo could potentially coexist, what happens if they can't?  Then you put yourself in a situation where you have to trade one of them, and there's no guarantee you get back anywhere close to equal value if teams know you have to make a trade. 

I don't think there's any possible way you'd make that offer to Deron Williams without a plan to trade Rondo for a big - that's just nonsensical.  At the very least, clearing out his contract to make a run for Dwight Howard in 2013.  You can't have close to $30M tied up between two point guards, and if you play them together you still haven't solved the problem of Rondo being on the floor and unable to shoot.  You can't play Rondo at the 2-guard, he's got to have the ball in his hands to do what he does best).  Deron Williams isn't going to sign here to *not* play point guard. 

And that's the problem - what appears to be a decided lack of interest in other teams who want Rondo.

So, I agree with you - it doesn't work because he's a PG.  I just don't think they would even considering making a max-offer to Williams without having a trade plan for Rondo already lined up.

Well, I suppose hypothetically you could use Williams at the 2 on offense and let Rondo with his long arms guard the opposing 2. 

Still, as we both said, there are just way too many problems to justify a max contract for Williams. 
Title: Re: Should the Celtics offer Deron Williams the max this summer?
Post by: BballTim on April 07, 2012, 03:27:03 PM
Quote
 Haha. Maybe if you  claim another 20 times that Deron runs a more efficient offense people will forget that it's more efficient than ours when Deron and Rondo are on the bench, not when they're in the game. Or that it's more efficient because of offensive rebounding. Keep trying...

The Nets' offensive efficiency when Deron is on the court: 106.2
The Celtics offensive efficiency when Rondo is on the court: 105.0

I'm sure once again you'll find a way to explain to me that Rondo actually, in spite of overwhelming evidence, runs a more efficient offense.

  So taking a closer look at the Nets and Celts offense when Rondo/Deron play, if you look at scoring chances (fga + .44 * fta) you'll see that the Celts score more points per scoring chance (1.08 to 1.06). You'll also see that 68% of the Celts makes are assisted compared to about 62% for the Nets. Oh, and the Nets turn the ball over more often as well.

  So how do the Nets have a more efficient offense when they convert their scoring chances less efficiently and also turn the ball over more often? Offensive rebounds. That's the only thing that allows Deron to run a "more efficient" offense. Clearly less efficient, simply more chances.
Title: Re: Should the Celtics offer Deron Williams the max this summer?
Post by: LarBrd33 on April 07, 2012, 03:53:06 PM
I don't know if this point has already been made, but the problem with signing Deron Williams is that we can say with a pretty high level of certainty that Rondo doesn't have much trade value around the league.  You know that Danny was letting teams know he was available; he wasn't getting terribly good offers (if he did, Rondo would be gone right now).  

Then, add in the fact that teams are going to know that Danny would be desperate to move Rondo.

So yeah, you *might* incrementally improve the team by signing Deron.  You're going to have to get rid of Rondo, and I really don't think you're going to get all that much for him.  
You bring up an excellent point.  All the noise surrounding the Celtics said were that they were shopping Rondo hard.  I think there is more concern with his attitude behind the scenes than they are letting on.  Unfortunately, teams outside of Boston don't see Rondo as that valuable.  Supposedly Golden State turned down trading Steph Curry for Rondo and the Lakers turned down trading an aging Pau Gasol for Rondo.  

The kind of guys Boston wanted for Rondo weren't available.   Despite this, I still think signing Deron Williams affords you the luxury of trading Rondo for a complementary piece.  Like, I think the Celtics would be have been buried this season had they traded Rondo for Josh Smith or Al Jefferson... Who would play the point guard?... but I think that's the kind of trade you could make (and the other team would do) if you already had a star PG in place (Deron)
Title: Re: Should the Celtics offer Deron Williams the max this summer?
Post by: slamtheking on April 07, 2012, 04:29:06 PM
Quote
I wouldn't sign Deron to a max deal for several reasons.  First, the only thing he really does better than Rondo is shoot.  Everything else, Rondo does as well or better.  Second, Rondo is on a far better contract which means more money will be available down the road to sign other players.

I love how you just toss aside shooting as if it's nothing. Deron is on a completely different level offensively than Rondo because of his scoring ability. Yeah, Rondo is a better rebounder - but honestly, the extra rebound a game is not a huge problem when one guy is just a much better overall point guard.
glad you love it.  I aim to please   ;)

it's not just rebounding.  it's defense, ballhandling, court sense and passing as well.  when taking all that into consideration, as well as the rebounding, I don't see Deron as that vastly superior other than as a shooter.
Title: Re: Should the Celtics offer Deron Williams the max this summer?
Post by: LarBrd33 on April 07, 2012, 04:36:34 PM
Quote
I wouldn't sign Deron to a max deal for several reasons.  First, the only thing he really does better than Rondo is shoot.  Everything else, Rondo does as well or better.  Second, Rondo is on a far better contract which means more money will be available down the road to sign other players.

I love how you just toss aside shooting as if it's nothing. Deron is on a completely different level offensively than Rondo because of his scoring ability. Yeah, Rondo is a better rebounder - but honestly, the extra rebound a game is not a huge problem when one guy is just a much better overall point guard.
glad you love it.  I aim to please   ;)

it's not just rebounding.  it's defense, ballhandling, court sense and passing as well.  when taking all that into consideration, as well as the rebounding, I don't see Deron as that vastly superior other than as a shooter.
Can someone please explain to me the basis for the claim that Rondo has better ballhandling, court sense and passing?   Are we just making stuff up for fun?  In that case... I'll just say Deron is a better rebounder than Rondo due to the fact he's bigger, taller and stronger.   Since we're just making stuff up, I mean.

Who wants to be the first brave person to admit they have never actually watched Deron Williams play basketball?
Title: Re: Should the Celtics offer Deron Williams the max this summer?
Post by: RJ87 on April 07, 2012, 04:49:54 PM
There should definitely be a "none of the above" option on this poll. I think any plan this summer is not going to hinge on a singular player, but a series of moves... Not interested in Deron Williams at all - that whole Sloan/Utah situation really left a bad taste in my mouth. Yes Rondo has his own attitude issues, but let's not act like Deron is a little angel. Let him be Mark Cuban and Rick Carlisle's problem next season, which by allegedly what he wants.

As far as this offseason for the C's, I think you consider trying to package those 2 first rounders to move up in the draft a little. Let Ray Allen walk (or sign & trade him if there's a chance to do so) and even Jeff Green if he wants too much money, but consider bringing KG back to play Center. I can definitely see us in talks with some restricted free agents - OJ Mayo might be a possibility (a Rondo/Mayo/Bradley backcourt rotation is intriguing to me, I admit), but think we may target some bigs like Ryan Anderson, Jason Thompson, or even Michael Beasley (yes, I consider Beas a big.) There's also some interesting UFA's available, namely Spencer Hawes and Kris Humphries. And of course, there's always the possibility of making a trade and utilizing the capspace that way, or we could look to sign some 1 year deals and try to use cap to make a splash in 2013 free agency...

I think there's a lot of options, but I doubt Deron is one of them.
Title: Re: Should the Celtics offer Deron Williams the max this summer?
Post by: LarBrd33 on April 07, 2012, 04:51:29 PM
I'd rather have the cost efficient point guard who already knows the system than getting a slight upgrade at a max contract where I don't think the talent increase justifies the increased cap hit. 

Keep Rondo and give yourself more flexibility with finding complementary pieces.
That's fair... so we stand pat, get a year older and see if we can make significant improvement by using a $3 million dollar mini mid-level-exception.  That + Jeff Green might get us out of the 1st round next year.  Then maybe two years after that when Pierce finally comes off the books, we can try to find someone to put next to Rondo (who will be pushing 30 years old)...
Title: Re: Should the Celtics offer Deron Williams the max this summer?
Post by: KCattheStripe on April 07, 2012, 04:58:29 PM
I'd rather have the cost efficient point guard who already knows the system than getting a slight upgrade at a max contract where I don't think the talent increase justifies the increased cap hit. 

Keep Rondo and give yourself more flexibility with finding complementary pieces.
That's fair... so we stand pat, get a year older and see if we can make significant improvement by using a $3 million dollar mini mid-level-exception.  That + Jeff Green might get us out of the 1st round next year.  Then maybe two years after that when Pierce finally comes off the books, we can try to find someone to put next to Rondo (who will be pushing 30 years old)...


You say "pushing 30" and I say entring his prime at 28. But of course you say " Pushing 30", you're a negative nancy.
Title: Re: Should the Celtics offer Deron Williams the max this summer?
Post by: KCattheStripe on April 07, 2012, 04:59:52 PM
Also, NBA championships aren't won through the PG, So why spend max money on one?
Title: Re: Should the Celtics offer Deron Williams the max this summer?
Post by: LarBrd33 on April 07, 2012, 05:06:14 PM
Quote
  Haha. Maybe if you  claim another 20 times that Deron runs a more efficient offense people will forget that it's more efficient than ours when Deron and Rondo are on the bench, not when they're in the game. Or that it's more efficient because of offensive rebounding. Keep trying...

The Nets' offensive efficiency when Deron is on the court: 106.2
The Celtics offensive efficiency when Rondo is on the court: 105.0

I'm sure once again you'll find a way to explain to me that Rondo actually, in spite of overwhelming evidence, runs a more efficient offense.

  So taking a closer look at the Nets and Celts offense when Rondo/Deron play, if you look at scoring chances (fga + .44 * fta) you'll see that the Celts score more points per scoring chance (1.08 to 1.06). You'll also see that 68% of the Celts makes are assisted compared to about 62% for the Nets. Oh, and the Nets turn the ball over more often as well.

  So how do the Nets have a more efficient offense when they convert their scoring chances less efficiently and also turn the ball over more often? Offensive rebounds. That's the only thing that allows Deron to run a "more efficient" offense. Clearly less efficient, simply more chances.

I encourage you to read this article comparing Rondo and John Wall's assist opportunities: 

http://www.bulletsforever.com/2012/3/2/2838291/rajon-rondo-missed-assist-tracker-john-wall

Quote
While watching Rondo, play after play, I was struck by how similar he is to John Wall in the half court. The way Rondo delivers passes to Ray Allen coming off screens or to Paul Pierce on a catch-and-shoot at the three-point line are very similar to how John Wall passes to Young coming off screens and to Rashard Lewis on a catch-and-shoot 3's. Obviously Rondo is MUCH better in the pick-and-roll game than Wall, but a lot of that has to do with Rondo's teammates being better pick setters and being better at moving to the right area and creating passing lanes.

Quote
Rondo's missed assists per game number is 7.6, which is far lower than Wall's 9.8 by a wide margin. If you add Rondo's assists with his missed assists (9.6 + 7.6 = 17.2) it's almost exactly the same number of assist opportunities as John Wall (7.6 + 9.8 = 17.4). Rondo's Boston teammates convert 55.9 percent of his assist chances into actual assists, while Wall's Wizards convert only 43.9 percent of his chances.

Of course, I'm not talking about John Wall.  I'm talking about Deron Williams... the 2nd best point guard in the league.  The guy's best teammates are Anthony MOrrow and Kris Kardashian.  Despite this he manages to average 21 points and 9 assists.  Throughout Deron's career while playing with UNQUESTIONABLY lesser players than Ray Allen, Paul Pierce and Kevin Garnett... Deron has managed to average 17 points and 9 assists on significantly higher shooting percentages... while keeping Utah in the thick of the playoff race during his tenure there.   Rondo has averaged 11 points and 8 assists. 

Now you may disagree with me, and that's fine... but there seems to be an overwhelming amount of evidence to support the idea that Rondo flourishes in-part due to his all-star teammates (KG is looking the best he has in years, Pierce just wrapped up player of the month honors and Ray is always Ray) ... My concern has always been what happens AFTER we lose these stars.  Rondo unquestionably has talent... but when you put him next to the likes of ANthony Morrow and Kris Kardashian... what happens to his spacing?  Who is coming off screens?  Who is setting screens?  How does he handle getting double-teamed on every possession like Deron WIlliams does?  How does he manage to keep his assists up with garbage teammates and an inability to hit shots? 

NOw... hopefully we never have to put Rondo in that position.  But Deron Williams IS in that position.  Signs point to him (or Chris Paul if we had landed him) flourishing if surrounded by three hall-of-famers.  I'd go as far as to say that Deron would match Rondo's playingmaking, passing and vision... and that his shooting ability would make things so much easier for the rest of the team that we'd more than make up for the small defensive gap.  The rebound numbers are system-related.
Title: Re: Should the Celtics offer Deron Williams the max this summer?
Post by: LarBrd33 on April 07, 2012, 05:08:27 PM
I'd rather have the cost efficient point guard who already knows the system than getting a slight upgrade at a max contract where I don't think the talent increase justifies the increased cap hit.  

Keep Rondo and give yourself more flexibility with finding complementary pieces.
That's fair... so we stand pat, get a year older and see if we can make significant improvement by using a $3 million dollar mini mid-level-exception.  That + Jeff Green might get us out of the 1st round next year.  Then maybe two years after that when Pierce finally comes off the books, we can try to find someone to put next to Rondo (who will be pushing 30 years old)...


You say "pushing 30" and I say entring his prime at 28. But of course you say " Pushing 30", you're a negative nancy.
He's 26 right now.  27 next year.  28 on Pierce's final contract year paying him 15.3 million in 2013/14 (unless you believe we'll cut him)... that leaves Rondo as a 29 year old vet (pushing 30) in 2014/15 when Pierce finally comes off the books and we realistically have a shot at adding help via free agency.

Personally, I'd rather just make Deron an offer and move Rondo for an established allstar who plays SG, SF, PF or C.
Title: Re: Should the Celtics offer Deron Williams the max this summer?
Post by: slamtheking on April 07, 2012, 05:09:10 PM
Quote
I wouldn't sign Deron to a max deal for several reasons.  First, the only thing he really does better than Rondo is shoot.  Everything else, Rondo does as well or better.  Second, Rondo is on a far better contract which means more money will be available down the road to sign other players.

I love how you just toss aside shooting as if it's nothing. Deron is on a completely different level offensively than Rondo because of his scoring ability. Yeah, Rondo is a better rebounder - but honestly, the extra rebound a game is not a huge problem when one guy is just a much better overall point guard.
glad you love it.  I aim to please   ;)

it's not just rebounding.  it's defense, ballhandling, court sense and passing as well.  when taking all that into consideration, as well as the rebounding, I don't see Deron as that vastly superior other than as a shooter.
Can someone please explain to me the basis for the claim that Rondo has better ballhandling, court sense and passing?   Are we just making stuff up for fun?  In that case... I'll just say Deron is a better rebounder than Rondo due to the fact he's bigger, taller and stronger.   Since we're just making stuff up, I mean.

Who wants to be the first brave person to admit they have never actually watched Deron Williams play basketball?
dude, don't bother going there with making stuff up.  if you really think Deron is a better player, let me know how many triple doubles the guy has posted.  is that the only measure to compare them, no, but that's a pretty good indicator to Rondo's versatility as a player.

I noticed you responded to everyone else's comments and glazed over my original post.  You still haven't addressed those points.  here's the original post so you don't have to go back to page 4 to find it.  feel free to respond but at this point after reading your condescending, arrogant and quite frankly pig-headed responses to people who disagree with you, I really don't care what you're response is.  I'll probably get banned for saying that but it is what it is.

Bottom line, your thought process on this is not the slamdunk, foolproof, genius idea that you think it is.  There are other angles to it that people see and feel are sufficient to make an argument not to make this move.  People will disagree with you for purely basketball reasons, not personal, even though you've used a fairly personal tone when responding to those people.
-------------------------
ORIGINAL POST
The problem I see with this thread is that the OP has an inexplicable drive to get a franchise or cornerstone player this offseason and that it just has to be this offseason.  Nevermind the fact that the only one that MAY fit this description plays the same position as our (arguably) best player.

I wouldn't sign Deron to a max deal for several reasons.  First, the only thing he really does better than Rondo is shoot.  Everything else, Rondo does as well or better.  Second, Rondo is on a far better contract which means more money will be available down the road to sign other players.

The free agent market this offseason is not terribly enticing in terms of UFAs.  Next season has a much better selection of UFAs and players that are RFAs this year but will most likely be UFAs next year after completing their qualifying contract.

I can live with resigning most of our players for one more year and taking a shot at the next FA market when there's better quality and depth AND we have more money cleared for spending (and hopefully a better handle on our younger players to see if they're worth keeping or better as trade chips).  That year we could take a run at both Hibbert and James Harden (or Josh Smith) as FA's to go possibly go with Green, Bradley, PP on his last year and our (hopefully) productive youth.  Rondo's better contract gives the team another 5-6 million to spend in that scenario so I see that as the smarter move than signing Deron to a max deal.
Title: Re: Should the Celtics offer Deron Williams the max this summer?
Post by: KCattheStripe on April 07, 2012, 05:14:04 PM
I'd rather have the cost efficient point guard who already knows the system than getting a slight upgrade at a max contract where I don't think the talent increase justifies the increased cap hit.  

Keep Rondo and give yourself more flexibility with finding complementary pieces.
That's fair... so we stand pat, get a year older and see if we can make significant improvement by using a $3 million dollar mini mid-level-exception.  That + Jeff Green might get us out of the 1st round next year.  Then maybe two years after that when Pierce finally comes off the books, we can try to find someone to put next to Rondo (who will be pushing 30 years old)...


You say "pushing 30" and I say entring his prime at 28. But of course you say " Pushing 30", you're a negative nancy.
He's 26 right now.  27 next year.  28 on Pierce's final contract year paying him 15.3 million in 2013/14 (unless you believe we'll cut him)... that leaves Rondo as a 29 year old vet (pushing 30) in 2014/15 when Pierce finally comes off the books and we realistically have a shot at adding help via free agency.

Personally, I'd rather just make Deron an offer and move Rondo for an established allstar who plays SG, SF, PF or C.


Why pay max money for a PG when you can win with

BJ Armstrong
Kenny Smith
Steve Kerr
Avery Johnson
Derek Fisher
Tony Parker
Chauncey Billups
Platoon of Jason Williams and Old Gary Payton
Rajon Rondo
Old Jason Kidd


Oh, he'll also be 28 when that season starts.
Title: Re: Should the Celtics offer Deron Williams the max this summer?
Post by: BballTim on April 07, 2012, 05:17:00 PM
Quote
I wouldn't sign Deron to a max deal for several reasons.  First, the only thing he really does better than Rondo is shoot.  Everything else, Rondo does as well or better.  Second, Rondo is on a far better contract which means more money will be available down the road to sign other players.

I love how you just toss aside shooting as if it's nothing. Deron is on a completely different level offensively than Rondo because of his scoring ability. Yeah, Rondo is a better rebounder - but honestly, the extra rebound a game is not a huge problem when one guy is just a much better overall point guard.
glad you love it.  I aim to please   ;)

it's not just rebounding.  it's defense, ballhandling, court sense and passing as well.  when taking all that into consideration, as well as the rebounding, I don't see Deron as that vastly superior other than as a shooter.
Can someone please explain to me the basis for the claim that Rondo has better ballhandling, court sense and passing?   Are we just making stuff up for fun?  In that case... I'll just say Deron is a better rebounder than Rondo due to the fact he's bigger, taller and stronger.   Since we're just making stuff up, I mean.

Who wants to be the first brave person to admit they have never actually watched Deron Williams play basketball?

  Do you think that you're the only one that's ever seen Deron Williams play basketball? Can you explain why someone claiming that Rondo has better ballhandling, court sense and passing is making things up, but claiming that Rondo isn't a better ballhandling, court sense and passing *isn't* making things up? Maybe you're ready to admit that you've never actually watched Rondo play basketball? Or aren't you that brave?
Title: Re: Should the Celtics offer Deron Williams the max this summer?
Post by: Who on April 07, 2012, 05:25:08 PM
Signing Deron + trading Rondo ... seems to be the best value move, at least in the immediate sense (this summer), to make given the lack of quality alternatives with that cap space.

That said, I can't see why Deron would choose Boston over Dallas. I don't think it is a realistic option. The Celtics would need to trade Rondo prior to FA opening and make a big enough move to convince Deron that Boston is a better destination than Dallas, Dirk Nowitzki and Mark Cuban. Otherwise (trading Rondo after acquiring Deron), I think there is just too much uncertainty about Boston's roster for Deron to choose the Celtics over the Mavericks. 
Title: Re: Should the Celtics offer Deron Williams the max this summer?
Post by: Who on April 07, 2012, 05:29:56 PM
I wonder if one could trade Rondo for Melo. Maybe Rondo and the two first rounders.

Deron and Melo to build around going forward + Pierce and Garnett to provide support for the short term future.
Title: Re: Should the Celtics offer Deron Williams the max this summer?
Post by: LooseCannon on April 07, 2012, 05:30:20 PM
I like Rondo because I like the kind of team I would want to build around him: a sort of smarter, inverted version of Orlando.  Take a star who is a monster rebounder for his position and has a problem making free throws and surround him with four good perimeter shooters and put an emphasis on defense.  Except this time, the star is your point guard rather than your center.  It'd be better than the Magic because the offense would have more and better ball movement.

I also think that being desperate to get Deron Williams is about as smart as the Knicks being so desperate to get Carmelo Anthony that they would give in to ridiculous trade demands.
Title: Re: Should the Celtics offer Deron Williams the max this summer?
Post by: Celtics18 on April 07, 2012, 05:35:11 PM
I'd rather have the cost efficient point guard who already knows the system than getting a slight upgrade at a max contract where I don't think the talent increase justifies the increased cap hit.  

Keep Rondo and give yourself more flexibility with finding complementary pieces.
That's fair... so we stand pat, get a year older and see if we can make significant improvement by using a $3 million dollar mini mid-level-exception.  That + Jeff Green might get us out of the 1st round next year.  Then maybe two years after that when Pierce finally comes off the books, we can try to find someone to put next to Rondo (who will be pushing 30 years old)...


You say "pushing 30" and I say entring his prime at 28. But of course you say " Pushing 30", you're a negative nancy.
He's 26 right now.  27 next year.  28 on Pierce's final contract year paying him 15.3 million in 2013/14 (unless you believe we'll cut him)... that leaves Rondo as a 29 year old vet (pushing 30) in 2014/15 when Pierce finally comes off the books and we realistically have a shot at adding help via free agency.

Personally, I'd rather just make Deron an offer and move Rondo for an established allstar who plays SG, SF, PF or C.

I've got a better idea.  Considering that Williams is the next Magic Johnson and that he improved from being the third best point guard in the league to the second best since this thread was started, we should sign him as a free agent and then trade him. 

That makes more sense.  People seem to be agreeing that Rondo's trade value isn't that high anyway.  Keep Rondo, use D-Will in a trade to get a star big.
Title: Re: Should the Celtics offer Deron Williams the max this summer?
Post by: LarBrd33 on April 07, 2012, 05:37:03 PM
Quote
I wouldn't sign Deron to a max deal for several reasons.  First, the only thing he really does better than Rondo is shoot.  Everything else, Rondo does as well or better.  Second, Rondo is on a far better contract which means more money will be available down the road to sign other players.

I love how you just toss aside shooting as if it's nothing. Deron is on a completely different level offensively than Rondo because of his scoring ability. Yeah, Rondo is a better rebounder - but honestly, the extra rebound a game is not a huge problem when one guy is just a much better overall point guard.
glad you love it.  I aim to please   ;)

it's not just rebounding.  it's defense, ballhandling, court sense and passing as well.  when taking all that into consideration, as well as the rebounding, I don't see Deron as that vastly superior other than as a shooter.
Can someone please explain to me the basis for the claim that Rondo has better ballhandling, court sense and passing?   Are we just making stuff up for fun?  In that case... I'll just say Deron is a better rebounder than Rondo due to the fact he's bigger, taller and stronger.   Since we're just making stuff up, I mean.

Who wants to be the first brave person to admit they have never actually watched Deron Williams play basketball?
dude, don't bother going there with making stuff up.  if you really think Deron is a better player, let me know how many triple doubles the guy has posted.  is that the only measure to compare them, no, but that's a pretty good indicator to Rondo's versatility as a player.

I noticed you responded to everyone else's comments and glazed over my original post.  You still haven't addressed those points.  here's the original post so you don't have to go back to page 4 to find it.  feel free to respond but at this point after reading your condescending, arrogant and quite frankly pig-headed responses to people who disagree with you, I really don't care what you're response is.  I'll probably get banned for saying that but it is what it is.

Bottom line, your thought process on this is not the slamdunk, foolproof, genius idea that you think it is.  There are other angles to it that people see and feel are sufficient to make an argument not to make this move.  People will disagree with you for purely basketball reasons, not personal, even though you've used a fairly personal tone when responding to those people.
-------------------------
ORIGINAL POST
The problem I see with this thread is that the OP has an inexplicable drive to get a franchise or cornerstone player this offseason and that it just has to be this offseason.  Nevermind the fact that the only one that MAY fit this description plays the same position as our (arguably) best player.

I wouldn't sign Deron to a max deal for several reasons.  First, the only thing he really does better than Rondo is shoot.  Everything else, Rondo does as well or better.  Second, Rondo is on a far better contract which means more money will be available down the road to sign other players.

The free agent market this offseason is not terribly enticing in terms of UFAs.  Next season has a much better selection of UFAs and players that are RFAs this year but will most likely be UFAs next year after completing their qualifying contract.

I can live with resigning most of our players for one more year and taking a shot at the next FA market when there's better quality and depth AND we have more money cleared for spending (and hopefully a better handle on our younger players to see if they're worth keeping or better as trade chips).  That year we could take a run at both Hibbert and James Harden (or Josh Smith) as FA's to go possibly go with Green, Bradley, PP on his last year and our (hopefully) productive youth.  Rondo's better contract gives the team another 5-6 million to spend in that scenario so I see that as the smarter move than signing Deron to a max deal.

Slamtheking, I saw your post... but it's tough to keep up when half the people in this thread are jumping down my throat.  Lol. 

Side note:  I've admitted this before... I don't pay attention to names of posters.  I honestly can't distinguish one person from another.  Aside from Roy Hobbs, you all kind of blend together into one person... so if I'm consistently offending one person in particular, that's unfortunately.  Today I started writing down names of people who apparently have an ax to to grind with me so I can make sure to be delicate in my responses.  So far I have slamtheking, nickagneta, BBallTim and Celtics18.  These are all users (who I have noticed so far) who called me out in some fashion, seem to have an ax to grind and probably could band together to get me banned.  Lol.

Anyhow... glossing over your insults I'll get to your point...  yes, we could just try our luck next year.  Maybe those guys don't get extended.  Maybe they do.  Even Josh Smith could see himself traded and extended prior to the offseason.  There's a lot of uncertainty there.  None of the guys you mentioned are as good as Deron Williams and we're taking a chance that they will actually be UFA.  Additionally, waiting until next year... you'd still have Rondo making 11 mil, Pierce making 15.6 mil (unless you cut him), presumably Jeff Green on board (making what?.. 7 mil)... some money tied up to Bradley and the other rookies... Who knows how much cap space we'd even have.   I'm fine with the "let it ride... see where the chips fall next year" plan.   MOst people seem to favor it (see the poll I added to this thread).

Judging by said poll, I'm in the minority here.  I freely admit it.  My opinions aren't popular.  But one thing I always believe is that you NEED a franchise player to win a championship.  As much as I love Rondo (and I DO love him despite what people must assume from these threads), I do NOT see Rondo as a franchise player.  He's an excellent PG.  He's top 6 in this league.  Three years from now he might not even be top 10 (Irving, Rubio, Steph Curry and Wall could all surpass him... Brandon Jennings is only 21... I wouldn't even be shocked to see him surpass Rondo.  You never know)... My point is, very shortly the offseason will begin and there very likely will be a franchise player sitting there in free agency.  My question was simple... do you offer him a contract or not?  I'd do it.  I'd have to do it.  Even if it didnt' work out, I'd still have my Rondo chip and my Deron chip... and those guys BOTH have a ton of trade value heading forward.  You see it as PG and PG... I see it as all-star chip and all-star chip. 
Title: Re: Should the Celtics offer Deron Williams the max this summer?
Post by: KCattheStripe on April 07, 2012, 05:38:51 PM
I wonder if one could trade Rondo for Melo. Maybe Rondo and the two first rounders.

Deron and Melo to build around going forward + Pierce and Garnett to provide support for the short term future.


I loathe Melo.
Title: Re: Should the Celtics offer Deron Williams the max this summer?
Post by: Moranis on April 07, 2012, 05:40:13 PM
I wonder if one could trade Rondo for Melo. Maybe Rondo and the two first rounders.

Deron and Melo to build around going forward + Pierce and Garnett to provide support for the short term future.
I'm not sure I'd want Melo even though he is better, but if they would give up Amare, I'd probably do that.  Then you go with KG, Amare, Pierce, Bradley, and Williams.  Seems like a pretty solid lineup going forward.
Title: Re: Should the Celtics offer Deron Williams the max this summer?
Post by: LarBrd33 on April 07, 2012, 05:41:05 PM
I wonder if one could trade Rondo for Melo. Maybe Rondo and the two first rounders.

Deron and Melo to build around going forward + Pierce and Garnett to provide support for the short term future.
Yeah Who I agreed with both of your points.  Signing Deron is a major longshot.  He's either staying in Brooklyn (I still say they trade for Dwight) or fleeing to Dallas.  

But hypothetically speaking, I think adding Deron has the most potential to make us immediately relevant.  And yes, I see no reason why Rondo (or Deron mid-season) couldn't be moved for Melo.  That's the kind of thinking I'm talking about... it makes no sense to trade Rondo for Melo in 2011-12... who would play PG?  But if you had Deron on board, you'd have the flexibility to offer Rondo up to the highest bidder.  If the highest bidder is Melo, then maybe you take that.  If the highest bidder is two lotto picks, then maybe you take that (and free up enough cap space to add a THIRD star free agent).

Seems you'd be in the "sure, I'd offer Deron a contract and figure it out from there" camp.  If I owned the Celtics and you were one of my GM candidates... I'd consider hiring you.
Title: Re: Should the Celtics offer Deron Williams the max this summer?
Post by: BballTim on April 07, 2012, 05:46:48 PM
Quote
  Haha. Maybe if you  claim another 20 times that Deron runs a more efficient offense people will forget that it's more efficient than ours when Deron and Rondo are on the bench, not when they're in the game. Or that it's more efficient because of offensive rebounding. Keep trying...

The Nets' offensive efficiency when Deron is on the court: 106.2
The Celtics offensive efficiency when Rondo is on the court: 105.0

I'm sure once again you'll find a way to explain to me that Rondo actually, in spite of overwhelming evidence, runs a more efficient offense.

  So taking a closer look at the Nets and Celts offense when Rondo/Deron play, if you look at scoring chances (fga + .44 * fta) you'll see that the Celts score more points per scoring chance (1.08 to 1.06). You'll also see that 68% of the Celts makes are assisted compared to about 62% for the Nets. Oh, and the Nets turn the ball over more often as well.

  So how do the Nets have a more efficient offense when they convert their scoring chances less efficiently and also turn the ball over more often? Offensive rebounds. That's the only thing that allows Deron to run a "more efficient" offense. Clearly less efficient, simply more chances.

I encourage you to read this article comparing Rondo and John Wall's assist opportunities: 

http://www.bulletsforever.com/2012/3/2/2838291/rajon-rondo-missed-assist-tracker-john-wall

Quote
While watching Rondo, play after play, I was struck by how similar he is to John Wall in the half court. The way Rondo delivers passes to Ray Allen coming off screens or to Paul Pierce on a catch-and-shoot at the three-point line are very similar to how John Wall passes to Young coming off screens and to Rashard Lewis on a catch-and-shoot 3's. Obviously Rondo is MUCH better in the pick-and-roll game than Wall, but a lot of that has to do with Rondo's teammates being better pick setters and being better at moving to the right area and creating passing lanes.

Quote
Rondo's missed assists per game number is 7.6, which is far lower than Wall's 9.8 by a wide margin. If you add Rondo's assists with his missed assists (9.6 + 7.6 = 17.2) it's almost exactly the same number of assist opportunities as John Wall (7.6 + 9.8 = 17.4). Rondo's Boston teammates convert 55.9 percent of his assist chances into actual assists, while Wall's Wizards convert only 43.9 percent of his chances.

Of course, I'm not talking about John Wall.  I'm talking about Deron Williams... the 2nd best point guard in the league.  The guy's best teammates are Anthony MOrrow and Kris Kardashian.  Despite this he manages to average 21 points and 9 assists.  Throughout Deron's career while playing with UNQUESTIONABLY lesser players than Ray Allen, Paul Pierce and Kevin Garnett... Deron has managed to average 17 points and 9 assists on significantly higher shooting percentages... while keeping Utah in the thick of the playoff race during his tenure there.   Rondo has averaged 11 points and 8 assists. 

Now you may disagree with me, and that's fine... but there seems to be an overwhelming amount of evidence to support the idea that Rondo flourishes in-part due to his all-star teammates (KG is looking the best he has in years, Pierce just wrapped up player of the month honors and Ray is always Ray) ... My concern has always been what happens AFTER we lose these stars.  Rondo unquestionably has talent... but when you put him next to the likes of ANthony Morrow and Kris Kardashian... what happens to his spacing?  Who is coming off screens?  Who is setting screens?  How does he handle getting double-teamed on every possession like Deron WIlliams does?  How does he manage to keep his assists up with garbage teammates and an inability to hit shots? 


  Did you glance through the comments after the article? If so, you would have come across this:
____________________________________________________
Total makes by Boston so far this year: 1166 Total Makes: 2564 Total turnovers: 500
Total non-Rondo assisted makes: 1166-231 = 935
Total non-Rondo assisted “opportunities” (attempts + turnovers): 3063 – 413 = 2650
Celts non-Rondo assisted makes/opportunities: 935/2650 = 35.3%
Celts Rondo-assisted makes/opportunities: 231/413 = 55.9%
Difference: 20.6%.
For Wall this number is 9.2%.

This is as close as I can get to the number Kev cites in the 82games article, where the league average is 8%
__________________________________________________________

  So in a nutshell the Celts are tremendously more likely to score off of a Rondo-initiated play than they are otherwise, whether he's on the court or not. Or, to put it another way, there isn't overwhelming evidence that Rondo flourishes in-part due to his all-star teammates, there's overwhelming evidence that Rondo's teammates flourish because they're on the court with him.
Title: Re: Should the Celtics offer Deron Williams the max this summer?
Post by: LarBrd33 on April 07, 2012, 05:49:46 PM
Quote
  Haha. Maybe if you  claim another 20 times that Deron runs a more efficient offense people will forget that it's more efficient than ours when Deron and Rondo are on the bench, not when they're in the game. Or that it's more efficient because of offensive rebounding. Keep trying...

The Nets' offensive efficiency when Deron is on the court: 106.2
The Celtics offensive efficiency when Rondo is on the court: 105.0

I'm sure once again you'll find a way to explain to me that Rondo actually, in spite of overwhelming evidence, runs a more efficient offense.

  So taking a closer look at the Nets and Celts offense when Rondo/Deron play, if you look at scoring chances (fga + .44 * fta) you'll see that the Celts score more points per scoring chance (1.08 to 1.06). You'll also see that 68% of the Celts makes are assisted compared to about 62% for the Nets. Oh, and the Nets turn the ball over more often as well.

  So how do the Nets have a more efficient offense when they convert their scoring chances less efficiently and also turn the ball over more often? Offensive rebounds. That's the only thing that allows Deron to run a "more efficient" offense. Clearly less efficient, simply more chances.

I encourage you to read this article comparing Rondo and John Wall's assist opportunities: 

http://www.bulletsforever.com/2012/3/2/2838291/rajon-rondo-missed-assist-tracker-john-wall

Quote
While watching Rondo, play after play, I was struck by how similar he is to John Wall in the half court. The way Rondo delivers passes to Ray Allen coming off screens or to Paul Pierce on a catch-and-shoot at the three-point line are very similar to how John Wall passes to Young coming off screens and to Rashard Lewis on a catch-and-shoot 3's. Obviously Rondo is MUCH better in the pick-and-roll game than Wall, but a lot of that has to do with Rondo's teammates being better pick setters and being better at moving to the right area and creating passing lanes.

Quote
Rondo's missed assists per game number is 7.6, which is far lower than Wall's 9.8 by a wide margin. If you add Rondo's assists with his missed assists (9.6 + 7.6 = 17.2) it's almost exactly the same number of assist opportunities as John Wall (7.6 + 9.8 = 17.4). Rondo's Boston teammates convert 55.9 percent of his assist chances into actual assists, while Wall's Wizards convert only 43.9 percent of his chances.

Of course, I'm not talking about John Wall.  I'm talking about Deron Williams... the 2nd best point guard in the league.  The guy's best teammates are Anthony MOrrow and Kris Kardashian.  Despite this he manages to average 21 points and 9 assists.  Throughout Deron's career while playing with UNQUESTIONABLY lesser players than Ray Allen, Paul Pierce and Kevin Garnett... Deron has managed to average 17 points and 9 assists on significantly higher shooting percentages... while keeping Utah in the thick of the playoff race during his tenure there.   Rondo has averaged 11 points and 8 assists. 

Now you may disagree with me, and that's fine... but there seems to be an overwhelming amount of evidence to support the idea that Rondo flourishes in-part due to his all-star teammates (KG is looking the best he has in years, Pierce just wrapped up player of the month honors and Ray is always Ray) ... My concern has always been what happens AFTER we lose these stars.  Rondo unquestionably has talent... but when you put him next to the likes of ANthony Morrow and Kris Kardashian... what happens to his spacing?  Who is coming off screens?  Who is setting screens?  How does he handle getting double-teamed on every possession like Deron WIlliams does?  How does he manage to keep his assists up with garbage teammates and an inability to hit shots? 


  Did you glance through the comments after the article? If so, you would have come across this:
____________________________________________________
Total makes by Boston so far this year: 1166 Total Makes: 2564 Total turnovers: 500
Total non-Rondo assisted makes: 1166-231 = 935
Total non-Rondo assisted “opportunities” (attempts + turnovers): 3063 – 413 = 2650
Celts non-Rondo assisted makes/opportunities: 935/2650 = 35.3%
Celts Rondo-assisted makes/opportunities: 231/413 = 55.9%
Difference: 20.6%.
For Wall this number is 9.2%.

This is as close as I can get to the number Kev cites in the 82games article, where the league average is 8%
__________________________________________________________

  So in a nutshell the Celts are tremendously more likely to score off of a Rondo-initiated play than they are otherwise, whether he's on the court or not. Or, to put it another way, there isn't overwhelming evidence that Rondo flourishes in-part due to his all-star teammates, there's overwhelming evidence that Rondo's teammates flourish because they're on the court with him.

The writer of the article responded:

Quote
Most of Rondo’s assist opportunities come from spot-ups, teammates coming off screens, and pick-and-roll plays…. and as I said earlier, I noticed nothing particularly “great” about Rondo’s assists or opportunities that were something I could point to and say, “John doesn’t do that”, or “Wow, Rondo really puts the ball in the hands of shooters much better than John Wall” ..

Matter of fact, there are only two differences that I can see in their passing games -

1. Wall gets way more assists at the rim – mainly because the Wizards have more athletic players – and he throws alley-oops. Rondo almost never throws oops, and has very few passes to players at the rim.

2. Rondo is much better in the pick-and-roll….but a LOT of that has to do with the fact that Garnett, Pierce, O’Neal and Brandon Bass are light years better at setting picks and then moving to open areas than Blatche, McGee, Seraphin and Singleton…

anyhow... That's comparing JOHN WALL to Rondo.  I don't see John Wall as being better than Rondo.  Deron is, though.  What's Deron's numbers?

And honestly Boston in general is one of the top-run organizations and systems in the league.  Rondo's been running this system now with 3 hall-of-fame professionals for 5 years.   I still wonder how well he'd do if he was suddenly playing with Anthony MOrow and Kris Kardashian.
Title: Re: Should the Celtics offer Deron Williams the max this summer?
Post by: alajet on April 07, 2012, 05:51:33 PM
Judging by said poll, I'm in the minority here.  I freely admit it.  My opinions aren't popular.  But one thing I always believe is that you NEED a franchise player to win a championship.  As much as I love Rondo (and I DO love him despite what people must assume from these threads), I do NOT see Rondo as a franchise player.  He's an excellent PG.  He's top 6 in this league.  Three years from now he might not even be top 10 (Irving, Rubio, Steph Curry and Wall could all surpass him... Brandon Jennings is only 21... I wouldn't even be shocked to see him surpass Rondo.  You never know)... My point is, very shortly the offseason will begin and there very likely will be a franchise player sitting there in free agency.  My question was simple... do you offer him a contract or not?  I'd do it.  I'd have to do it.  Even if it didnt' work out, I'd still have my Rondo chip and my Deron chip... and those guys BOTH have a ton of trade value heading forward.  You see it as PG and PG... I see it as all-star chip and all-star chip. 

Bring Steph Curry somehow and I say yes, because the two can co-exist, as it happened in GSW with Monta (they got killed in defense, but that's largely due to their inferior frontcourt players).
But a PG over PG? Well, assuming Deron won't be willing to play 2, you'll have to move Rondo, which automatically is equivalent of shouting to every other GM like: "Hey, we have to trade away Rondo. Anyone that can step on the court is acceptable!"
Yeah, I know, I exaggerated it like a million times, but, can you deny the fact that it'd still be a move of desperation?
I'm not trying to go negative with my critics, but I just can't see how this move allows us to build a championship-caliber team in the short term.
Title: Re: Should the Celtics offer Deron Williams the max this summer?
Post by: Celtics18 on April 07, 2012, 05:55:08 PM
I wonder if one could trade Rondo for Melo. Maybe Rondo and the two first rounders.

Deron and Melo to build around going forward + Pierce and Garnett to provide support for the short term future.
Yeah Who I agreed with both of your points.  Signing Deron is a major longshot.  He's either staying in Brooklyn (I still say they trade for Dwight) or fleeing to Dallas.  

But hypothetically speaking, I think adding Deron has the most potential to make us immediately relevant.  And yes, I see no reason why Rondo (or Deron mid-season) couldn't be moved for Melo.  That's the kind of thinking I'm talking about... it makes no sense to trade Rondo for Melo in 2011-12... who would play PG?  But if you had Deron on board, you'd have the flexibility to offer Rondo up to the highest bidder.  If the highest bidder is Melo, then maybe you take that.  If the highest bidder is two lotto picks, then maybe you take that (and free up enough cap space to add a THIRD star free agent).

Seems you'd be in the "sure, I'd offer Deron a contract and figure it out from there" camp.  If I owned the Celtics and you were one of my GM candidates... I'd consider hiring you.

It's pretty funny that we have a hypothetical thread that's eight pages long based on something that has a snow ball's chance in you-know-where of happening anyway.  

But, if Danny decided to go after Deron Williams in free agency for the added value then I think it would make much more sense to trade Williams than Rondo.  As you say, his trade value is much higher and his contract is much higher.  So, he could get back a legit star type player.

I'm not sure who he would fetch back, but I'd like to aim higher than Josh Smith.
Title: Re: Should the Celtics offer Deron Williams the max this summer?
Post by: Who on April 07, 2012, 05:59:10 PM
I don't think Deron Williams would consider signing without Rondo already being gone or at least a guarantee that Rondo would be traded prior to the season beginning ... to allow Deron to play the point.

I can't imagine Deron considering to go to a team that won't let him play his position. The sign Deron Williams and later trade Deron Williams isn't an option.
Title: Re: Should the Celtics offer Deron Williams the max this summer?
Post by: Celtics18 on April 07, 2012, 06:03:43 PM
I don't think Deron Williams would consider signing without Rondo already being gone or at least a guarantee that Rondo would be traded prior to the season beginning ... to allow Deron to play the point.

I can't imagine Deron considering to go to a team that won't let him play his position. The sign Deron Williams and later trade Deron Williams isn't an option.

Is that against the rules?
Title: Re: Should the Celtics offer Deron Williams the max this summer?
Post by: KCattheStripe on April 07, 2012, 06:04:36 PM


Why pay max money for a PG when you can win with

BJ Armstrong
Kenny Smith
Steve Kerr
Avery Johnson
Derek Fisher
Tony Parker
Chauncey Billups
Platoon of Jason Williams and Old Gary Payton
Rajon Rondo
Old Jason Kidd

Bueller?
Title: Re: Should the Celtics offer Deron Williams the max this summer?
Post by: Who on April 07, 2012, 06:05:17 PM
I don't think Deron Williams would consider signing without Rondo already being gone or at least a guarantee that Rondo would be traded prior to the season beginning ... to allow Deron to play the point.

I can't imagine Deron considering to go to a team that won't let him play his position. The sign Deron Williams and later trade Deron Williams isn't an option.

Is that against the rules?
No ... but why does Deron sign if there is any chance that they may move him in the near future?
Title: Re: Should the Celtics offer Deron Williams the max this summer?
Post by: LarBrd33 on April 07, 2012, 06:05:56 PM
I don't think Deron Williams would consider signing without Rondo already being gone or at least a guarantee that Rondo would be traded prior to the season beginning ... to allow Deron to play the point.

I can't imagine Deron considering to go to a team that won't let him play his position. The sign Deron Williams and later trade Deron Williams isn't an option.
I agree, Who.  I'm just floating the "keep Rondo and trade Deron mid-season" idea to appease the mob that is jumping down my throat and can't see past the "No way would I swap Rondo for Deron" thing.  Lol.   I still think the concept makes sense... if a young top 2 PG is available to add for free, you have to go for it... even if it means moving your young top 6 PG for an equally talented player of a different position.

It's like this... Vlade Divac was a star center for the Lakers.  Shaq became available... they signed Shaq and traded Divac for Kobe.   I'm sure if a brave LarBrd33-esque Laker fan had floated the idea before it happened, you'd have a bunch of Laker fans saying, "NO Way would I give up DIvac!! The only thing SHaq does better is score.  He can't match Divac's passing ability!!... where's your loyalty, pre-internet-boom-message-board LarBrd33-esque Laker fan?!"
Title: Re: Should the Celtics offer Deron Williams the max this summer?
Post by: BballTim on April 07, 2012, 06:08:49 PM
Quote
  Haha. Maybe if you  claim another 20 times that Deron runs a more efficient offense people will forget that it's more efficient than ours when Deron and Rondo are on the bench, not when they're in the game. Or that it's more efficient because of offensive rebounding. Keep trying...

The Nets' offensive efficiency when Deron is on the court: 106.2
The Celtics offensive efficiency when Rondo is on the court: 105.0

I'm sure once again you'll find a way to explain to me that Rondo actually, in spite of overwhelming evidence, runs a more efficient offense.

  So taking a closer look at the Nets and Celts offense when Rondo/Deron play, if you look at scoring chances (fga + .44 * fta) you'll see that the Celts score more points per scoring chance (1.08 to 1.06). You'll also see that 68% of the Celts makes are assisted compared to about 62% for the Nets. Oh, and the Nets turn the ball over more often as well.

  So how do the Nets have a more efficient offense when they convert their scoring chances less efficiently and also turn the ball over more often? Offensive rebounds. That's the only thing that allows Deron to run a "more efficient" offense. Clearly less efficient, simply more chances.

I encourage you to read this article comparing Rondo and John Wall's assist opportunities: 

http://www.bulletsforever.com/2012/3/2/2838291/rajon-rondo-missed-assist-tracker-john-wall

Quote
While watching Rondo, play after play, I was struck by how similar he is to John Wall in the half court. The way Rondo delivers passes to Ray Allen coming off screens or to Paul Pierce on a catch-and-shoot at the three-point line are very similar to how John Wall passes to Young coming off screens and to Rashard Lewis on a catch-and-shoot 3's. Obviously Rondo is MUCH better in the pick-and-roll game than Wall, but a lot of that has to do with Rondo's teammates being better pick setters and being better at moving to the right area and creating passing lanes.

Quote
Rondo's missed assists per game number is 7.6, which is far lower than Wall's 9.8 by a wide margin. If you add Rondo's assists with his missed assists (9.6 + 7.6 = 17.2) it's almost exactly the same number of assist opportunities as John Wall (7.6 + 9.8 = 17.4). Rondo's Boston teammates convert 55.9 percent of his assist chances into actual assists, while Wall's Wizards convert only 43.9 percent of his chances.

Of course, I'm not talking about John Wall.  I'm talking about Deron Williams... the 2nd best point guard in the league.  The guy's best teammates are Anthony MOrrow and Kris Kardashian.  Despite this he manages to average 21 points and 9 assists.  Throughout Deron's career while playing with UNQUESTIONABLY lesser players than Ray Allen, Paul Pierce and Kevin Garnett... Deron has managed to average 17 points and 9 assists on significantly higher shooting percentages... while keeping Utah in the thick of the playoff race during his tenure there.   Rondo has averaged 11 points and 8 assists. 

Now you may disagree with me, and that's fine... but there seems to be an overwhelming amount of evidence to support the idea that Rondo flourishes in-part due to his all-star teammates (KG is looking the best he has in years, Pierce just wrapped up player of the month honors and Ray is always Ray) ... My concern has always been what happens AFTER we lose these stars.  Rondo unquestionably has talent... but when you put him next to the likes of ANthony Morrow and Kris Kardashian... what happens to his spacing?  Who is coming off screens?  Who is setting screens?  How does he handle getting double-teamed on every possession like Deron WIlliams does?  How does he manage to keep his assists up with garbage teammates and an inability to hit shots? 


  Did you glance through the comments after the article? If so, you would have come across this:
____________________________________________________
Total makes by Boston so far this year: 1166 Total Makes: 2564 Total turnovers: 500
Total non-Rondo assisted makes: 1166-231 = 935
Total non-Rondo assisted “opportunities” (attempts + turnovers): 3063 – 413 = 2650
Celts non-Rondo assisted makes/opportunities: 935/2650 = 35.3%
Celts Rondo-assisted makes/opportunities: 231/413 = 55.9%
Difference: 20.6%.
For Wall this number is 9.2%.

This is as close as I can get to the number Kev cites in the 82games article, where the league average is 8%
__________________________________________________________

  So in a nutshell the Celts are tremendously more likely to score off of a Rondo-initiated play than they are otherwise, whether he's on the court or not. Or, to put it another way, there isn't overwhelming evidence that Rondo flourishes in-part due to his all-star teammates, there's overwhelming evidence that Rondo's teammates flourish because they're on the court with him.

The writer of the article responded:

Quote
Most of Rondo’s assist opportunities come from spot-ups, teammates coming off screens, and pick-and-roll plays…. and as I said earlier, I noticed nothing particularly “great” about Rondo’s assists or opportunities that were something I could point to and say, “John doesn’t do that”, or “Wow, Rondo really puts the ball in the hands of shooters much better than John Wall” ..

Matter of fact, there are only two differences that I can see in their passing games -

1. Wall gets way more assists at the rim – mainly because the Wizards have more athletic players – and he throws alley-oops. Rondo almost never throws oops, and has very few passes to players at the rim.

2. Rondo is much better in the pick-and-roll….but a LOT of that has to do with the fact that Garnett, Pierce, O’Neal and Brandon Bass are light years better at setting picks and then moving to open areas than Blatche, McGee, Seraphin and Singleton…

anyhow... That's comparing JOHN WALL to Rondo.  I don't see John Wall as being better than Rondo.  Deron is, though.  What's Deron's numbers?

  The author is a John Wall fan, the post is on a Wizards equivalent of celticsblog. Again, if there's "nothing special" about what Rondo does, why are the same plays so much less likely to work without Rondo running them? The boost in efficiency from Rondo's assists is 250% of the average. It's not slightly above average, but tremendously above average.

  You might want to pay attention to part of what you quoted though:

  "Wall gets way more assists at the rim – mainly because the Wizards have more athletic players – and he throws alley-oops. Rondo almost never throws oops, and has very few passes to players at the rim."

  So put Rondo with more athletic players and he'll get those assists that Wall gets, plus he'll have players running with him in transition (where he's much better than Wall). Look at all the easy baskets Wilcox got from Rondo's assists. It's more likely his assists will go up than drop with different teammates.
Title: Re: Should the Celtics offer Deron Williams the max this summer?
Post by: LarBrd33 on April 07, 2012, 06:10:54 PM
Quote
  Haha. Maybe if you  claim another 20 times that Deron runs a more efficient offense people will forget that it's more efficient than ours when Deron and Rondo are on the bench, not when they're in the game. Or that it's more efficient because of offensive rebounding. Keep trying...

The Nets' offensive efficiency when Deron is on the court: 106.2
The Celtics offensive efficiency when Rondo is on the court: 105.0

I'm sure once again you'll find a way to explain to me that Rondo actually, in spite of overwhelming evidence, runs a more efficient offense.

  So taking a closer look at the Nets and Celts offense when Rondo/Deron play, if you look at scoring chances (fga + .44 * fta) you'll see that the Celts score more points per scoring chance (1.08 to 1.06). You'll also see that 68% of the Celts makes are assisted compared to about 62% for the Nets. Oh, and the Nets turn the ball over more often as well.

  So how do the Nets have a more efficient offense when they convert their scoring chances less efficiently and also turn the ball over more often? Offensive rebounds. That's the only thing that allows Deron to run a "more efficient" offense. Clearly less efficient, simply more chances.

I encourage you to read this article comparing Rondo and John Wall's assist opportunities: 

http://www.bulletsforever.com/2012/3/2/2838291/rajon-rondo-missed-assist-tracker-john-wall

Quote
While watching Rondo, play after play, I was struck by how similar he is to John Wall in the half court. The way Rondo delivers passes to Ray Allen coming off screens or to Paul Pierce on a catch-and-shoot at the three-point line are very similar to how John Wall passes to Young coming off screens and to Rashard Lewis on a catch-and-shoot 3's. Obviously Rondo is MUCH better in the pick-and-roll game than Wall, but a lot of that has to do with Rondo's teammates being better pick setters and being better at moving to the right area and creating passing lanes.

Quote
Rondo's missed assists per game number is 7.6, which is far lower than Wall's 9.8 by a wide margin. If you add Rondo's assists with his missed assists (9.6 + 7.6 = 17.2) it's almost exactly the same number of assist opportunities as John Wall (7.6 + 9.8 = 17.4). Rondo's Boston teammates convert 55.9 percent of his assist chances into actual assists, while Wall's Wizards convert only 43.9 percent of his chances.

Of course, I'm not talking about John Wall.  I'm talking about Deron Williams... the 2nd best point guard in the league.  The guy's best teammates are Anthony MOrrow and Kris Kardashian.  Despite this he manages to average 21 points and 9 assists.  Throughout Deron's career while playing with UNQUESTIONABLY lesser players than Ray Allen, Paul Pierce and Kevin Garnett... Deron has managed to average 17 points and 9 assists on significantly higher shooting percentages... while keeping Utah in the thick of the playoff race during his tenure there.   Rondo has averaged 11 points and 8 assists. 

Now you may disagree with me, and that's fine... but there seems to be an overwhelming amount of evidence to support the idea that Rondo flourishes in-part due to his all-star teammates (KG is looking the best he has in years, Pierce just wrapped up player of the month honors and Ray is always Ray) ... My concern has always been what happens AFTER we lose these stars.  Rondo unquestionably has talent... but when you put him next to the likes of ANthony Morrow and Kris Kardashian... what happens to his spacing?  Who is coming off screens?  Who is setting screens?  How does he handle getting double-teamed on every possession like Deron WIlliams does?  How does he manage to keep his assists up with garbage teammates and an inability to hit shots? 


  Did you glance through the comments after the article? If so, you would have come across this:
____________________________________________________
Total makes by Boston so far this year: 1166 Total Makes: 2564 Total turnovers: 500
Total non-Rondo assisted makes: 1166-231 = 935
Total non-Rondo assisted “opportunities” (attempts + turnovers): 3063 – 413 = 2650
Celts non-Rondo assisted makes/opportunities: 935/2650 = 35.3%
Celts Rondo-assisted makes/opportunities: 231/413 = 55.9%
Difference: 20.6%.
For Wall this number is 9.2%.

This is as close as I can get to the number Kev cites in the 82games article, where the league average is 8%
__________________________________________________________

  So in a nutshell the Celts are tremendously more likely to score off of a Rondo-initiated play than they are otherwise, whether he's on the court or not. Or, to put it another way, there isn't overwhelming evidence that Rondo flourishes in-part due to his all-star teammates, there's overwhelming evidence that Rondo's teammates flourish because they're on the court with him.

The writer of the article responded:

Quote
Most of Rondo’s assist opportunities come from spot-ups, teammates coming off screens, and pick-and-roll plays…. and as I said earlier, I noticed nothing particularly “great” about Rondo’s assists or opportunities that were something I could point to and say, “John doesn’t do that”, or “Wow, Rondo really puts the ball in the hands of shooters much better than John Wall” ..

Matter of fact, there are only two differences that I can see in their passing games -

1. Wall gets way more assists at the rim – mainly because the Wizards have more athletic players – and he throws alley-oops. Rondo almost never throws oops, and has very few passes to players at the rim.

2. Rondo is much better in the pick-and-roll….but a LOT of that has to do with the fact that Garnett, Pierce, O’Neal and Brandon Bass are light years better at setting picks and then moving to open areas than Blatche, McGee, Seraphin and Singleton…

anyhow... That's comparing JOHN WALL to Rondo.  I don't see John Wall as being better than Rondo.  Deron is, though.  What's Deron's numbers?

  The author is a John Wall fan, the post is on a Wizards equivalent of celticsblog. Again, if there's "nothing special" about what Rondo does, why are the same plays so much less likely to work without Rondo running them? The boost in efficiency from Rondo's assists is 250% of the average. It's not slightly above average, but tremendously above average.

  You might want to pay attention to part of what you quoted though:

  "Wall gets way more assists at the rim – mainly because the Wizards have more athletic players – and he throws alley-oops. Rondo almost never throws oops, and has very few passes to players at the rim."

  So put Rondo with more athletic players and he'll get those assists that Wall gets, plus he'll have players running with him in transition (where he's much better than Wall). Look at all the easy baskets Wilcox got from Rondo's assists. It's more likely his assists will go up than drop with different teammates.

Alright man I get it.  You win.  Rondo is better than Deron.  Fine. 

I'd still offer Deron a contract and trade Rondo to the highest bidder.  Two stars are better than one.
Title: Re: Should the Celtics offer Deron Williams the max this summer?
Post by: alajet on April 07, 2012, 06:11:39 PM
even if it means moving your young top 6 PG for an equally talented player of a different position.

It's like this... Vlade Divac was a star center for the Lakers.  Shaq became available... they signed Shaq and traded Divac for Kobe.   I'm sure if a brave LarBrd33-esque Laker fan had floated the idea before it happened, you'd have a bunch of Laker fans saying, "NO Way would I give up DIvac!!... where's your loyalty, pre-internet-boom-message-board LarBrd33-esque Laker fan?!"

Fair enough, I see your logic.
And I just want to be sure of that equally talented player of different position we are trading Rondo for. Just who is that Top 6 (whatever position he's playing for) player?


Title: Re: Should the Celtics offer Deron Williams the max this summer?
Post by: KCattheStripe on April 07, 2012, 06:14:13 PM
even if it means moving your young top 6 PG for an equally talented player of a different position.

It's like this... Vlade Divac was a star center for the Lakers.  Shaq became available... they signed Shaq and traded Divac for Kobe.   I'm sure if a brave LarBrd33-esque Laker fan had floated the idea before it happened, you'd have a bunch of Laker fans saying, "NO Way would I give up DIvac!!... where's your loyalty, pre-internet-boom-message-board LarBrd33-esque Laker fan?!"

Fair enough, I see your logic.
And I just want to be sure of that equally talented player of different position we are trading Rondo for. Just who is that Top 6 (whatever position he's playing for) player?





Two things, Shaq was a top 5 player at his position and having a great player at C or PF has a greater impact on winning a title than having a great player at PG.
Title: Re: Should the Celtics offer Deron Williams the max this summer?
Post by: Celtics18 on April 07, 2012, 06:14:26 PM
I don't think Deron Williams would consider signing without Rondo already being gone or at least a guarantee that Rondo would be traded prior to the season beginning ... to allow Deron to play the point.

I can't imagine Deron considering to go to a team that won't let him play his position. The sign Deron Williams and later trade Deron Williams isn't an option.

Is that against the rules?
No ... but why does Deron sign if there is any chance that they may move him in the near future?

Don't tell him.
Title: Re: Should the Celtics offer Deron Williams the max this summer?
Post by: Celtics18 on April 07, 2012, 06:16:18 PM
I don't think Deron Williams would consider signing without Rondo already being gone or at least a guarantee that Rondo would be traded prior to the season beginning ... to allow Deron to play the point.

I can't imagine Deron considering to go to a team that won't let him play his position. The sign Deron Williams and later trade Deron Williams isn't an option.
I agree, Who.  I'm just floating the "keep Rondo and trade Deron mid-season" idea to appease the mob that is jumping down my throat and can't see past the "No way would I swap Rondo for Deron" thing.  Lol.   I still think the concept makes sense... if a young top 2 PG is available to add for free, you have to go for it... even if it means moving your young top 6 PG for an equally talented player of a different position.

It's like this... Vlade Divac was a star center for the Lakers.  Shaq became available... they signed Shaq and traded Divac for Kobe.   I'm sure if a brave LarBrd33-esque Laker fan had floated the idea before it happened, you'd have a bunch of Laker fans saying, "NO Way would I give up DIvac!! The only thing SHaq does better is score.  He can't match Divac's passing ability!!... where's your loyalty, pre-internet-boom-message-board LarBrd33-esque Laker fan?!"


Ha, ha.  I'm not a mob, and the difference between Rajon Rondo and Deron Williams is nowhere near the difference between an aging Vlade Divac and a young Shaq.

By the way, how did Deron Williams improve from being a top 3 point guard to being a top two point guard over the course of the last five pages?  Do you know something the rest of us don't about the severity of Derrick Rose's injury?
Title: Re: Should the Celtics offer Deron Williams the max this summer?
Post by: LarBrd33 on April 07, 2012, 06:19:58 PM
even if it means moving your young top 6 PG for an equally talented player of a different position.

It's like this... Vlade Divac was a star center for the Lakers.  Shaq became available... they signed Shaq and traded Divac for Kobe.   I'm sure if a brave LarBrd33-esque Laker fan had floated the idea before it happened, you'd have a bunch of Laker fans saying, "NO Way would I give up DIvac!!... where's your loyalty, pre-internet-boom-message-board LarBrd33-esque Laker fan?!"

Fair enough, I see your logic.
And I just want to be sure of that equally talented player of different position we are trading Rondo for. Just who is that Top 6 (whatever position he's playing for) player?



I floated the idea of Josh Smith or Al Jefferson.  Those were easy, because Smith wants out of Atlanta and I'm sure they'd JUMP at getting a top 6 point guard to pair with Horford.  IN jefferson's case, they already have two big men sitting on their bench who are their future (Favors and Kanter) and would probably GLADLY bring in Rondo (I mean shoot... especially if Rondo actually IS better than Deron) ...

But perhaps Rondo's value is even greater than that.  I didn't want to suggest anything outrageous.  One poster just mentioned Melo.  I could see it (Lin isn't that good).   I offered up the pipe dream of Rondo + both 1st rounders for Dwight to appease the fans who think Rondo is a superstar.... and also, because landing Deron might convince Dwight to demand a trade to Boston.  He wants to play with Deron desperately. 

So I'll put Rondo's value somewhere between Josh Smith and Dwight Howard.  But personally I'm in favor of trading Rondo for someone still on their rookie contract so that we can free up additional cap room.  Rondo for DeMarcus Cousins, for example.  you do that, you'd have money left over to bring back KG and Ray to play with Pierce, Cousins and Deron.

Again, none of this matters because Deron is either sticking in Brooklyn or going to Dallas.  Still... there's some pipe dreams we could think about.  If Orlando's situation gets worse and they decide to trade Dwight... I can see the Nets offering a big package centered on Brook Lopez (hoping to land Dwight and convince Deron to re-sign)... Maybe at that point we call up Deron and say, "hey... if we trade Rondo and picks for Dwight will you sign with us?"
Title: Re: Should the Celtics offer Deron Williams the max this summer?
Post by: LarBrd33 on April 07, 2012, 06:28:31 PM
I don't think Deron Williams would consider signing without Rondo already being gone or at least a guarantee that Rondo would be traded prior to the season beginning ... to allow Deron to play the point.

I can't imagine Deron considering to go to a team that won't let him play his position. The sign Deron Williams and later trade Deron Williams isn't an option.
I agree, Who.  I'm just floating the "keep Rondo and trade Deron mid-season" idea to appease the mob that is jumping down my throat and can't see past the "No way would I swap Rondo for Deron" thing.  Lol.   I still think the concept makes sense... if a young top 2 PG is available to add for free, you have to go for it... even if it means moving your young top 6 PG for an equally talented player of a different position.

It's like this... Vlade Divac was a star center for the Lakers.  Shaq became available... they signed Shaq and traded Divac for Kobe.   I'm sure if a brave LarBrd33-esque Laker fan had floated the idea before it happened, you'd have a bunch of Laker fans saying, "NO Way would I give up DIvac!! The only thing SHaq does better is score.  He can't match Divac's passing ability!!... where's your loyalty, pre-internet-boom-message-board LarBrd33-esque Laker fan?!"


Ha, ha.  I'm not a mob, and the difference between Rajon Rondo and Deron Williams is nowhere near the difference between an aging Vlade Divac and a young Shaq.

By the way, how did Deron Williams improve from being a top 3 point guard to being a top two point guard over the course of the last five pages?  Do you know something the rest of us don't about the severity of Derrick Rose's injury?
We're splitting hairs here.  Divac was Rondo's age when they traded him for the Kobe pick.  This was the first example that popped into my head.  It's an exaggerated form.  You get my point, man.  When a franchise player becomes available, you go after him.  I'm sure there are other examples of what the Lakers did.
Title: Re: Should the Celtics offer Deron Williams the max this summer?
Post by: Onslaught on April 07, 2012, 06:32:20 PM
Should the Celtics offer Deron Williams the max this summer?

Answer- No

We already have a VERY GOOD PG that we're not paying anything near max money for. I'd rather spend it on things we really need down the road.

If we could get anything for Rondo we'd already done it a long time ago. So getting Williams  and trading Rondo wouldn't work that well. We'd never get anything close to Rondo's value.

I also don't want a punk who gets his coach fired and then gets out of town anyway on my team. If you can't play for Jerry Sloan then you don't need to have on green in my book. Williams is just like many other modern NBA jerks. I don't like him.
Title: Re: Should the Celtics offer Deron Williams the max this summer?
Post by: Celtics18 on April 07, 2012, 06:34:54 PM
I don't think Deron Williams would consider signing without Rondo already being gone or at least a guarantee that Rondo would be traded prior to the season beginning ... to allow Deron to play the point.

I can't imagine Deron considering to go to a team that won't let him play his position. The sign Deron Williams and later trade Deron Williams isn't an option.
I agree, Who.  I'm just floating the "keep Rondo and trade Deron mid-season" idea to appease the mob that is jumping down my throat and can't see past the "No way would I swap Rondo for Deron" thing.  Lol.   I still think the concept makes sense... if a young top 2 PG is available to add for free, you have to go for it... even if it means moving your young top 6 PG for an equally talented player of a different position.

It's like this... Vlade Divac was a star center for the Lakers.  Shaq became available... they signed Shaq and traded Divac for Kobe.   I'm sure if a brave LarBrd33-esque Laker fan had floated the idea before it happened, you'd have a bunch of Laker fans saying, "NO Way would I give up DIvac!! The only thing SHaq does better is score.  He can't match Divac's passing ability!!... where's your loyalty, pre-internet-boom-message-board LarBrd33-esque Laker fan?!"


Ha, ha.  I'm not a mob, and the difference between Rajon Rondo and Deron Williams is nowhere near the difference between an aging Vlade Divac and a young Shaq.

By the way, how did Deron Williams improve from being a top 3 point guard to being a top two point guard over the course of the last five pages?  Do you know something the rest of us don't about the severity of Derrick Rose's injury?
We're splitting hairs here.  Divac was Rondo's age when they traded him for the Kobe pick.  This was the first example that popped into my head.  It's an exaggerated form.  You get my point, man.  When a franchise player becomes available, you go after him.  I'm sure there are other examples of what the Lakers did.

I get your point, man, but I don't buy that there's any validity to saying that Divac is to Shaq as Rondo is to Williams.  Using that kind of logic would not get you too far on one of those Miller's Analogy Tests.

If there are better examples, then I would suggest you use those instead.
Title: Re: Should the Celtics offer Deron Williams the max this summer?
Post by: alajet on April 07, 2012, 06:37:27 PM
even if it means moving your young top 6 PG for an equally talented player of a different position.

It's like this... Vlade Divac was a star center for the Lakers.  Shaq became available... they signed Shaq and traded Divac for Kobe.   I'm sure if a brave LarBrd33-esque Laker fan had floated the idea before it happened, you'd have a bunch of Laker fans saying, "NO Way would I give up DIvac!!... where's your loyalty, pre-internet-boom-message-board LarBrd33-esque Laker fan?!"

Fair enough, I see your logic.
And I just want to be sure of that equally talented player of different position we are trading Rondo for. Just who is that Top 6 (whatever position he's playing for) player?



I floated the idea of Josh Smith or Al Jefferson.  Those were easy, because Smith wants out of Atlanta and I'm sure they'd JUMP at getting a top 6 point guard to pair with Horford.  IN jefferson's case, they already have two big men sitting on their bench who are their future (Favors and Kanter) and would probably GLADLY bring in Rondo (I mean shoot... especially if Rondo actually IS better than Deron) ...

But perhaps Rondo's value is even greater than that.  I didn't want to suggest anything outrageous.  One poster just mentioned Melo.  I could see it (Lin isn't that good).   I offered up the pipe dream of Rondo + both 1st rounders for Dwight to appease the fans who think Rondo is a superstar.... and also, because landing Deron might convince Dwight to demand a trade to Boston.  He wants to play with Deron desperately. 

So I'll put Rondo's value somewhere between Josh Smith and Dwight Howard.  But personally I'm in favor of trading Rondo for someone still on their rookie contract so that we can free up additional cap room.  Rondo for DeMarcus Cousins, for example.  you do that, you'd have money left over to bring back KG and Ray to play with Pierce, Cousins and Deron.

Again, none of this matters because Deron is either sticking in Brooklyn or going to Dallas.  Still... there's some pipe dreams we could think about.  If Orlando's situation gets worse and they decide to trade Dwight... I can see the Nets offering a big package centered on Brook Lopez (hoping to land Dwight and convince Deron to re-sign)... Maybe at that point we call up Deron and say, "hey... if we trade Rondo and picks for Dwight will you sign with us?"

Josh Smith trade scenario isn't ideal. We tend to forget KG isn't a C, he is a PF, and would love to get back to his own spot, for sure.
As for the other trade, Jazz would gladly do it, even if Rondo isn't as good as Deron, they have Devin Harris running the point, and he isn't as good as he once was. But I can't see how all of a sudden bringing Al makes us a true winner. Don't forget that Al has injury concerns, too.
And trading Rondo for someone like Cousins? That guy's coachability is a big question mark and you won't fancy players that start to demand trades as early as their sophomore seasons, right?

Title: Re: Should the Celtics offer Deron Williams the max this summer?
Post by: KCattheStripe on April 07, 2012, 06:38:30 PM
When a franchise player becomes available, you go after him. 

Deron Williams is not a franchise player.
Title: Re: Should the Celtics offer Deron Williams the max this summer?
Post by: LarBrd33 on April 07, 2012, 06:42:24 PM
I don't think Deron Williams would consider signing without Rondo already being gone or at least a guarantee that Rondo would be traded prior to the season beginning ... to allow Deron to play the point.

I can't imagine Deron considering to go to a team that won't let him play his position. The sign Deron Williams and later trade Deron Williams isn't an option.
I agree, Who.  I'm just floating the "keep Rondo and trade Deron mid-season" idea to appease the mob that is jumping down my throat and can't see past the "No way would I swap Rondo for Deron" thing.  Lol.   I still think the concept makes sense... if a young top 2 PG is available to add for free, you have to go for it... even if it means moving your young top 6 PG for an equally talented player of a different position.

It's like this... Vlade Divac was a star center for the Lakers.  Shaq became available... they signed Shaq and traded Divac for Kobe.   I'm sure if a brave LarBrd33-esque Laker fan had floated the idea before it happened, you'd have a bunch of Laker fans saying, "NO Way would I give up DIvac!! The only thing SHaq does better is score.  He can't match Divac's passing ability!!... where's your loyalty, pre-internet-boom-message-board LarBrd33-esque Laker fan?!"


Ha, ha.  I'm not a mob, and the difference between Rajon Rondo and Deron Williams is nowhere near the difference between an aging Vlade Divac and a young Shaq.

By the way, how did Deron Williams improve from being a top 3 point guard to being a top two point guard over the course of the last five pages?  Do you know something the rest of us don't about the severity of Derrick Rose's injury?
We're splitting hairs here.  Divac was Rondo's age when they traded him for the Kobe pick.  This was the first example that popped into my head.  It's an exaggerated form.  You get my point, man.  When a franchise player becomes available, you go after him.  I'm sure there are other examples of what the Lakers did.

I get your point, man, but I don't buy that there's any validity to saying that Divac is to Shaq as Rondo is to Williams.  Using that kind of logic would not get you too far on one of those Miller's Analogy Tests.

If there are better examples, then I would suggest you use those instead.

I'd have to think about it a bit.  How about the Suns.  26 year old Stephon Marbury was an all-star point guard averaging 21 points, 8 assists, 3 rebounds and 2 steals.  I'm sure at the time if you had asked some Suns fans, they would tell you that Steph was a better player than Steve nash (who was 29 years old and coming off a season averaging 14.5 points, and 8.8 assists... nowhere near the defender that Steph was) ... Still, the Suns gave Nash a max deal and then flipped Steph to the Knicks
Quote
Marbury, Penny Hardaway and Cezary Trybański were traded to the New York Knicks on January 5, 2004 for Howard Eisley, Charlie Ward, Antonio McDyess, Maciej Lampe, draft rights to Miloš Vujanić, a first-round 2004 draft choice, and an additional future first-round draft choice, likely to be in the 2010 draft.[4]

Suns go from winning 29 games to 62.  Nash wins back-to-back MVP awards.  Does that one count or should I keep looking?

I'm sure if you were to go back and look at some Suns forums the year before you'd see fans saying, "Should the Suns offer Steve Nash the max this summer?

Answer- No

We already have a VERY GOOD PG in Steph Marbury... who is younger and a better defender"...

Am I making ground here or am I delusional?
Title: Re: Should the Celtics offer Deron Williams the max this summer?
Post by: alajet on April 07, 2012, 06:51:34 PM
I'd have to think about it a bit.  How about the Suns.  26 year old Stephon Marbury was an all-star point guard averaging 21 points, 8 assists, 3 rebounds and 2 steals.  I'm sure at the time if you had asked some Suns fans, they would tell you that Steph was a better player than Steve nash (who was 29 years old and coming off a season averaging 14.5 points, and 8.8 assists... nowhere near the defender that Steph was) ... Still, the Suns gave Nash a max deal and then flipped Steph to the Knicks
Quote
Marbury, Penny Hardaway and Cezary Trybański were traded to the New York Knicks on January 5, 2004 for Howard Eisley, Charlie Ward, Antonio McDyess, Maciej Lampe, draft rights to Miloš Vujanić, a first-round 2004 draft choice, and an additional future first-round draft choice, likely to be in the 2010 draft.[4]

Suns go from winning 29 games to 62.  Nash wins back-to-back MVP awards.  Does that one count or should I keep looking?

I'm sure if you were to go back and look at some Suns forums the year before you'd see fans saying, "Should the Suns offer Steve Nash the max this summer?

Answer- No

We already have a VERY GOOD PG in Steph Marbury... who is younger and a better defender"...

Am I making ground here or am I delusional?

Because as good as Steph was back in that day, since his early Minnesota days with KG (which did not last too long, either), he never left an impression of running a play-off series winning team, let it be a championship winning one.
So, yeah, I'd shoot everyone on feet if I was a Suns fan and someone brought this trade package to me, but Suns were so desperate to move Steph out of town that they settled down for a losing trade on paper and still ended up on the winning side.
If you think Rondo is such a pain to bear, then, you made ground, I'd say.
Title: Re: Should the Celtics offer Deron Williams the max this summer?
Post by: LarBrd33 on April 07, 2012, 07:02:46 PM
I'd have to think about it a bit.  How about the Suns.  26 year old Stephon Marbury was an all-star point guard averaging 21 points, 8 assists, 3 rebounds and 2 steals.  I'm sure at the time if you had asked some Suns fans, they would tell you that Steph was a better player than Steve nash (who was 29 years old and coming off a season averaging 14.5 points, and 8.8 assists... nowhere near the defender that Steph was) ... Still, the Suns gave Nash a max deal and then flipped Steph to the Knicks
Quote
Marbury, Penny Hardaway and Cezary Trybański were traded to the New York Knicks on January 5, 2004 for Howard Eisley, Charlie Ward, Antonio McDyess, Maciej Lampe, draft rights to Miloš Vujanić, a first-round 2004 draft choice, and an additional future first-round draft choice, likely to be in the 2010 draft.[4]

Suns go from winning 29 games to 62.  Nash wins back-to-back MVP awards.  Does that one count or should I keep looking?

I'm sure if you were to go back and look at some Suns forums the year before you'd see fans saying, "Should the Suns offer Steve Nash the max this summer?

Answer- No

We already have a VERY GOOD PG in Steph Marbury... who is younger and a better defender"...

Am I making ground here or am I delusional?

Because as good as Steph was back in that day, since his early Minnesota days with KG (which did not last too long, either), he never left an impression of running a play-off series winning team, let it be a championship winning one.
So, yeah, I'd shoot everyone on feet if I was a Suns fan and someone brought this trade package to me, but Suns were so desperate to move Steph out of town that they settled down for a losing trade on paper and still ended up on the winning side.
If you think Rondo is such a pain to bear, then, you made ground, I'd say.

Eh... man... that's the best I can do.  Couldn't think of anything better.  I guess I was way off comparing the Suns trading their 26 year old all-star PG to make room for a franchise PG.  Way off.

There's other lesser examples like the Hawks signing Dikembe Mutumbo and then trading Grant Long for two 1st rounders... winning 56 games the next year.  Or the Heat signing Tim Hardaway and then trading their star player (Glen Rice) for Alonzo Mourning (going from 25 wins to contender)... but those technically aren't the same positions and don't count.   Best I can do is the Lakers moving Vlade (for Kobe) to make room for Shaq and the suns trading Steph to make room for Nash (getting a boatload of assets)
Title: Re: Should the Celtics offer Deron Williams the max this summer?
Post by: KCattheStripe on April 07, 2012, 07:06:44 PM
franchise PG. 

Bob Cousy. Magic Johnson. Isaiah Thomas. These are franchise PGs. Deron Williams is not.
Title: Re: Should the Celtics offer Deron Williams the max this summer?
Post by: RJ87 on April 07, 2012, 07:09:34 PM
When a franchise player becomes available, you go after him. 

Deron Williams is not a franchise player.

This. He's a big name, but certainly not of the caliber of a Lebron, DWade, CP3 or D12. More like Carmelo or Bosh.
Title: Re: Should the Celtics offer Deron Williams the max this summer?
Post by: Celtics18 on April 07, 2012, 07:11:41 PM
I don't think Deron Williams would consider signing without Rondo already being gone or at least a guarantee that Rondo would be traded prior to the season beginning ... to allow Deron to play the point.

I can't imagine Deron considering to go to a team that won't let him play his position. The sign Deron Williams and later trade Deron Williams isn't an option.
I agree, Who.  I'm just floating the "keep Rondo and trade Deron mid-season" idea to appease the mob that is jumping down my throat and can't see past the "No way would I swap Rondo for Deron" thing.  Lol.   I still think the concept makes sense... if a young top 2 PG is available to add for free, you have to go for it... even if it means moving your young top 6 PG for an equally talented player of a different position.

It's like this... Vlade Divac was a star center for the Lakers.  Shaq became available... they signed Shaq and traded Divac for Kobe.   I'm sure if a brave LarBrd33-esque Laker fan had floated the idea before it happened, you'd have a bunch of Laker fans saying, "NO Way would I give up DIvac!! The only thing SHaq does better is score.  He can't match Divac's passing ability!!... where's your loyalty, pre-internet-boom-message-board LarBrd33-esque Laker fan?!"


Ha, ha.  I'm not a mob, and the difference between Rajon Rondo and Deron Williams is nowhere near the difference between an aging Vlade Divac and a young Shaq.

By the way, how did Deron Williams improve from being a top 3 point guard to being a top two point guard over the course of the last five pages?  Do you know something the rest of us don't about the severity of Derrick Rose's injury?
We're splitting hairs here.  Divac was Rondo's age when they traded him for the Kobe pick.  This was the first example that popped into my head.  It's an exaggerated form.  You get my point, man.  When a franchise player becomes available, you go after him.  I'm sure there are other examples of what the Lakers did.

I get your point, man, but I don't buy that there's any validity to saying that Divac is to Shaq as Rondo is to Williams.  Using that kind of logic would not get you too far on one of those Miller's Analogy Tests.

If there are better examples, then I would suggest you use those instead.

I'd have to think about it a bit.  How about the Suns.  26 year old Stephon Marbury was an all-star point guard averaging 21 points, 8 assists, 3 rebounds and 2 steals.  I'm sure at the time if you had asked some Suns fans, they would tell you that Steph was a better player than Steve nash (who was 29 years old and coming off a season averaging 14.5 points, and 8.8 assists... nowhere near the defender that Steph was) ... Still, the Suns gave Nash a max deal and then flipped Steph to the Knicks
Quote
Marbury, Penny Hardaway and Cezary Trybański were traded to the New York Knicks on January 5, 2004 for Howard Eisley, Charlie Ward, Antonio McDyess, Maciej Lampe, draft rights to Miloš Vujanić, a first-round 2004 draft choice, and an additional future first-round draft choice, likely to be in the 2010 draft.[4]

Suns go from winning 29 games to 62.  Nash wins back-to-back MVP awards.  Does that one count or should I keep looking?

I'm sure if you were to go back and look at some Suns forums the year before you'd see fans saying, "Should the Suns offer Steve Nash the max this summer?

Answer- No

We already have a VERY GOOD PG in Steph Marbury... who is younger and a better defender"...

Am I making ground here or am I delusional?

Good job doing your homework.  You might have gained a little ground, but, somewhat ironically,
I would say that Deron Williams is much more in the mold of Steph Marbury while Rondo reminds me more of Steve Nash (only with NBA all defensive ability).  

Again, in the hypothetical event that Danny offers the max to Deron Williams and Williams accepts it, I'd much rather trade Williams away than Rondo.  
Title: Re: Should the Celtics offer Deron Williams the max this summer?
Post by: rasta1 on April 07, 2012, 09:46:37 PM
Danny probably WILL offer Deron a contract to see if he bites but its unlikely he'll go all out after him,

similar to the trade deadline situation
Title: Re: Should the Celtics offer Deron Williams the max this summer?
Post by: chambers on April 08, 2012, 11:48:02 AM
franchise PG.

Bob Cousy. Magic Johnson. Isaiah Thomas. These are franchise PGs. Deron Williams is not.

I've been thinking about this and I was about to post the same thing.
I don't think Williams is a franchise player. Maybe a franchise player for the Jazz or the Nets, but he is just another version of Rondo. Excellent, All Star caliber player but not necessarily a franchise leading-to-all the peanuts guard. Like Rondo, he needs a Batman so he can do Robin to the max.

Does everyone know that Magic Johnson says Rondo is the best point guard in the NBA?

Anyway, opinion is that Deron Williams is NOT a franchise player.
Title: Re: Should the Celtics offer Deron Williams the max this summer?
Post by: Moranis on April 08, 2012, 02:59:08 PM
I'd have to think about it a bit.  How about the Suns.  26 year old Stephon Marbury was an all-star point guard averaging 21 points, 8 assists, 3 rebounds and 2 steals.  I'm sure at the time if you had asked some Suns fans, they would tell you that Steph was a better player than Steve nash (who was 29 years old and coming off a season averaging 14.5 points, and 8.8 assists... nowhere near the defender that Steph was) ... Still, the Suns gave Nash a max deal and then flipped Steph to the Knicks
Quote
Marbury, Penny Hardaway and Cezary Trybański were traded to the New York Knicks on January 5, 2004 for Howard Eisley, Charlie Ward, Antonio McDyess, Maciej Lampe, draft rights to Miloš Vujanić, a first-round 2004 draft choice, and an additional future first-round draft choice, likely to be in the 2010 draft.[4]

Suns go from winning 29 games to 62.  Nash wins back-to-back MVP awards.  Does that one count or should I keep looking?

I'm sure if you were to go back and look at some Suns forums the year before you'd see fans saying, "Should the Suns offer Steve Nash the max this summer?

Answer- No

We already have a VERY GOOD PG in Steph Marbury... who is younger and a better defender"...

Am I making ground here or am I delusional?

Because as good as Steph was back in that day, since his early Minnesota days with KG (which did not last too long, either), he never left an impression of running a play-off series winning team, let it be a championship winning one.
So, yeah, I'd shoot everyone on feet if I was a Suns fan and someone brought this trade package to me, but Suns were so desperate to move Steph out of town that they settled down for a losing trade on paper and still ended up on the winning side.
If you think Rondo is such a pain to bear, then, you made ground, I'd say.

Eh... man... that's the best I can do.  Couldn't think of anything better.  I guess I was way off comparing the Suns trading their 26 year old all-star PG to make room for a franchise PG.  Way off.

There's other lesser examples like the Hawks signing Dikembe Mutumbo and then trading Grant Long for two 1st rounders... winning 56 games the next year.  Or the Heat signing Tim Hardaway and then trading their star player (Glen Rice) for Alonzo Mourning (going from 25 wins to contender)... but those technically aren't the same positions and don't count.   Best I can do is the Lakers moving Vlade (for Kobe) to make room for Shaq and the suns trading Steph to make room for Nash (getting a boatload of assets)
Clippers draft Blake Griffin and then trade Zach Randolph for Quentin Richardson to make room for Blake.
Title: Re: Should the Celtics offer Deron Williams the max this summer?
Post by: LarBrd33 on April 08, 2012, 03:09:52 PM
I'd have to think about it a bit.  How about the Suns.  26 year old Stephon Marbury was an all-star point guard averaging 21 points, 8 assists, 3 rebounds and 2 steals.  I'm sure at the time if you had asked some Suns fans, they would tell you that Steph was a better player than Steve nash (who was 29 years old and coming off a season averaging 14.5 points, and 8.8 assists... nowhere near the defender that Steph was) ... Still, the Suns gave Nash a max deal and then flipped Steph to the Knicks
Quote
Marbury, Penny Hardaway and Cezary Trybański were traded to the New York Knicks on January 5, 2004 for Howard Eisley, Charlie Ward, Antonio McDyess, Maciej Lampe, draft rights to Miloš Vujanić, a first-round 2004 draft choice, and an additional future first-round draft choice, likely to be in the 2010 draft.[4]

Suns go from winning 29 games to 62.  Nash wins back-to-back MVP awards.  Does that one count or should I keep looking?

I'm sure if you were to go back and look at some Suns forums the year before you'd see fans saying, "Should the Suns offer Steve Nash the max this summer?

Answer- No

We already have a VERY GOOD PG in Steph Marbury... who is younger and a better defender"...

Am I making ground here or am I delusional?

Because as good as Steph was back in that day, since his early Minnesota days with KG (which did not last too long, either), he never left an impression of running a play-off series winning team, let it be a championship winning one.
So, yeah, I'd shoot everyone on feet if I was a Suns fan and someone brought this trade package to me, but Suns were so desperate to move Steph out of town that they settled down for a losing trade on paper and still ended up on the winning side.
If you think Rondo is such a pain to bear, then, you made ground, I'd say.

Eh... man... that's the best I can do.  Couldn't think of anything better.  I guess I was way off comparing the Suns trading their 26 year old all-star PG to make room for a franchise PG.  Way off.

There's other lesser examples like the Hawks signing Dikembe Mutumbo and then trading Grant Long for two 1st rounders... winning 56 games the next year.  Or the Heat signing Tim Hardaway and then trading their star player (Glen Rice) for Alonzo Mourning (going from 25 wins to contender)... but those technically aren't the same positions and don't count.   Best I can do is the Lakers moving Vlade (for Kobe) to make room for Shaq and the suns trading Steph to make room for Nash (getting a boatload of assets)
Clippers draft Blake Griffin and then trade Zach Randolph for Quentin Richardson to make room for Blake.
There are a bunch of examples of teams doing this with drafted players.  When it comes to the draft you always should go after best player available.  But I feel like that should go for free agency as well... try signing the best player available.  It's big picture stuff.
Title: Re: Should the Celtics offer Deron Williams the max this summer?
Post by: Moranis on April 08, 2012, 03:14:10 PM
I'd have to think about it a bit.  How about the Suns.  26 year old Stephon Marbury was an all-star point guard averaging 21 points, 8 assists, 3 rebounds and 2 steals.  I'm sure at the time if you had asked some Suns fans, they would tell you that Steph was a better player than Steve nash (who was 29 years old and coming off a season averaging 14.5 points, and 8.8 assists... nowhere near the defender that Steph was) ... Still, the Suns gave Nash a max deal and then flipped Steph to the Knicks
Quote
Marbury, Penny Hardaway and Cezary Trybański were traded to the New York Knicks on January 5, 2004 for Howard Eisley, Charlie Ward, Antonio McDyess, Maciej Lampe, draft rights to Miloš Vujanić, a first-round 2004 draft choice, and an additional future first-round draft choice, likely to be in the 2010 draft.[4]

Suns go from winning 29 games to 62.  Nash wins back-to-back MVP awards.  Does that one count or should I keep looking?

I'm sure if you were to go back and look at some Suns forums the year before you'd see fans saying, "Should the Suns offer Steve Nash the max this summer?

Answer- No

We already have a VERY GOOD PG in Steph Marbury... who is younger and a better defender"...

Am I making ground here or am I delusional?

Because as good as Steph was back in that day, since his early Minnesota days with KG (which did not last too long, either), he never left an impression of running a play-off series winning team, let it be a championship winning one.
So, yeah, I'd shoot everyone on feet if I was a Suns fan and someone brought this trade package to me, but Suns were so desperate to move Steph out of town that they settled down for a losing trade on paper and still ended up on the winning side.
If you think Rondo is such a pain to bear, then, you made ground, I'd say.

Eh... man... that's the best I can do.  Couldn't think of anything better.  I guess I was way off comparing the Suns trading their 26 year old all-star PG to make room for a franchise PG.  Way off.

There's other lesser examples like the Hawks signing Dikembe Mutumbo and then trading Grant Long for two 1st rounders... winning 56 games the next year.  Or the Heat signing Tim Hardaway and then trading their star player (Glen Rice) for Alonzo Mourning (going from 25 wins to contender)... but those technically aren't the same positions and don't count.   Best I can do is the Lakers moving Vlade (for Kobe) to make room for Shaq and the suns trading Steph to make room for Nash (getting a boatload of assets)
Clippers draft Blake Griffin and then trade Zach Randolph for Quentin Richardson to make room for Blake.
There are a bunch of examples of teams doing this with drafted players.  When it comes to the draft you always should go after best player available.  But I feel like that should go for free agency as well... try signing the best player available.  It's big picture stuff.
I agree, I would sign Deron Williams or essentially no one (one year deals only).  He is the only free agent worth signing long term. 
Title: Re: Should the Celtics offer Deron Williams the max this summer?
Post by: KCattheStripe on April 08, 2012, 03:31:42 PM

There are a bunch of examples of teams doing this with drafted players.  When it comes to the draft you always should go after best player available.  But I feel like that should go for free agency as well... try signing the best player available.  It's big picture stuff.


The big picture of signing a player to max money ay a position that it matters the least to have a top 5 player in? That big picture?
Title: Re: Should the Celtics offer Deron Williams the max this summer?
Post by: paintitgreen on April 08, 2012, 05:16:57 PM

The big picture of signing a player to max money ay a position that it matters the least to have a top 5 player in? That big picture?

This is the point that makes me think going after Deron to build around is not a great idea. There are about 25-30 quality point guards in the NBA. There are about 25-35 quality wings in the NBA, and you play at least 2 (if not 3) at a time. There are a handful of quality centers. (There are a lot of quality power forwards too). In the big picture, it's worth a lot more to max out a wing player or big man. I think Deron Williams is a better player than Rondo. I don't think Deron Williams is worth $6 million more a year (about half Rondo's salary) than Rondo. 
Title: Re: Should the Celtics offer Deron Williams the max this summer?
Post by: myteamisbetterthanyours on April 12, 2012, 07:00:17 AM
Rondo is the best overall point guard in the NBA.  I'm not even going to discuss this any further.  The best PG in NBA history (Magic Johnson) seems to think so too.  edit  

Deron is not a winner.  Rondo is a winner.  Deron is the perfect example of a "I get mine, look-at-me im flashy, I shoot like a god, I'm so perfect, but I can't get out the first round type of player" CC Melo.

Deron is an ELITE scorer, don't get me wrong.  But not so much a great point guard.  Defensively he's trash.  He doesnt see the court like Rondo can, and his BBall IQ is no where near Rondo's. Plus, scoring point guards don't win championships anyway.

So I'll pass on giving this guy a max contract, thanks.
(http://forums.celticsblog.com/Themes/sbn/images/warnwarn.gif) edit - No personal attacks or calling out posters.   wdleehi
Title: Re: Should the Celtics offer Deron Williams the max this summer?
Post by: SHAQATTACK on April 12, 2012, 07:58:17 AM
Mello seems to be discovering that basketball is a team sport , finally .
  Deron is a long way from that, he wants to be on a team like the HEAT , where individual talent superior  of just playing street ball wins games and those players are the heros night in and night out.

Team play trumps selfish hero ball .
Title: Re: Should the Celtics offer Deron Williams the max this summer?
Post by: incoherent on April 12, 2012, 08:51:41 AM
I'd say no. Let's spend our money where we need it.

Where we don't need it is the PG: Rondo, SG: Bradley, SF: Pierce.

Priority in spending money in my opinion goes first to the 4 spot, then 5, then 3.
Title: Re: Should the Celtics offer Deron Williams the max this summer?
Post by: Moranis on April 12, 2012, 09:40:19 AM
Rondo is the best overall point guard in the NBA.  I'm not even going to discuss this any further.  The best PG in NBA history (Magic Johnson) seems to think so too.  edit  

Deron is not a winner.  Rondo is a winner.  Deron is the perfect example of a "I get mine, look-at-me im flashy, I shoot like a god, I'm so perfect, but I can't get out the first round type of player" CC Melo.

Deron is an ELITE scorer, don't get me wrong.  But not so much a great point guard.  Defensively he's trash.  He doesnt see the court like Rondo can, and his BBall IQ is no where near Rondo's. Plus, scoring point guards don't win championships anyway.

So I'll pass on giving this guy a max contract, thanks.
(http://forums.celticsblog.com/Themes/sbn/images/warnwarn.gif) edit - No personal attacks or calling out posters.   wdleehi
We are talking about the Deron Williams that won 4 playoff series in 4 seasons with the Utah Jazz.  The team that went from 26 wins without Deron to 41 wins in Deron's first season.  

The reality is, Deron Williams is the only free agent worth signing this summer.  Either you sign him or you come back with essentially the same team.  I'd rather just sign him and either play them together or trade Rondo and upgrade down low rather than sign no one or overpay for role players.  Deron Williams is the only difference maker in free agency.  Period.
Title: Re: Should the Celtics offer Deron Williams the max this summer?
Post by: moiso on April 12, 2012, 10:08:04 AM
It's hard to think about a point guard replacement with the way Rondo has been playing.  And what if we get Williams, and then teams lowball us on Rondo offers.  We can't have both.
Title: Re: Should the Celtics offer Deron Williams the max this summer?
Post by: Mazingerz on April 12, 2012, 10:44:12 AM
why? Rondo's skillset is far better than Deron Williams. I can't comprehend the fascination with Deron "Diva" Williams.
Title: Re: Should the Celtics offer Deron Williams the max this summer?
Post by: Moranis on April 12, 2012, 11:19:02 AM
It's hard to think about a point guard replacement with the way Rondo has been playing.  And what if we get Williams, and then teams lowball us on Rondo offers.  We can't have both.
Why not?  Clippers were playing great with Paul and Billups.  Rondo and Williams are of a similar size as those two and Williams is much bigger and stronger than Bradley.  From a basketball standpoint it would work just fine.
Title: Re: Should the Celtics offer Deron Williams the max this summer?
Post by: Bahku on April 12, 2012, 11:36:13 AM
why? Rondo's skillset is far better than Deron Williams. I can't comprehend the fascination with Deron "Diva" Williams.
TP.

Completely agree with this ... I mean, are people even watching these two guys play?!?

D-Will is a very good PG, but not remotely the complete skillset that Rondo has, or the floor vision, or the leadership qualities, or the basketball IQ ... on and on.

No way do I want Deron to replace Rajon.

I'm truly amazed that this mindset is still persisting on the blog after what he's done this season.

Wow.