CelticsStrong
Around the League => Around the NBA => Topic started by: RebusRankin on August 14, 2010, 01:25:22 PM
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The Hall of Fame induction yesterday and the thread about all time starting 5's got me thinking, now that DJ is in the Hall, who else deserves to be in? To me, they actually have a lack of NBA stars and seem to have way too many coaches, international players and female stars.
I'll mention Bernard King and Artis Gilmore to get the ball rolling.
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Dennis Rodman
JoJo White
Spencer Haywood,
Marques Johnson,
George McGinnis,
Mel Daniels
(Agreed on Gilmore and King, too.)
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Pippen
Horry (when eligible) No accident that he was on so many championship teams.
Hall should be for champions.
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Oh, and Mitch Richmond.
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If you are selecting Artis Gilmore for his ABA playing days i agree but he was not a superstar or even a star player in the NBA.His numbers are good but he was not a dominating player in the NBA.He actually was a disappointment to the Bulls in a sense because he did not play up to the expectations they wanted.Ask some older NBA&Bulls fans who witnessed in those days,as i did.He doesn't belong in the NBA HOF(imo).
He didn't get the nickname "Sleeping Giant"for no reason.
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If you are selecting Artis Gilmore for his ABA playing days i agree but he was not a superstar or even a star player in the NBA.His numbers are good but he was not a dominating player in the NBA.He actually was a disappointment to the Bulls in a sense because he did not play up to the expectations they wanted.Ask some older NBA&Bulls fans who witnessed in those days,as i did.He doesn't belong in the NBA HOF(imo).
He didn't get the nickname "Sleeping Giant"for no reason.
I would agree if it was the NBA HOF; he had a good but not great NBA career. However, since it's the Basketball HOF, I think Gilmore needs to be recognized. He was an amazing player in the ABA, and had a pretty good college career, too.
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If you are selecting Artis Gilmore for his ABA playing days i agree but he was not a superstar or even a star player in the NBA.His numbers are good but he was not a dominating player in the NBA.He actually was a disappointment to the Bulls in a sense because he did not play up to the expectations they wanted.Ask some older NBA&Bulls fans who witnessed in those days,as i did.He doesn't belong in the NBA HOF(imo).
He didn't get the nickname "Sleeping Giant"for no reason.
I would agree if it was the NBA HOF; he had a good but not great NBA career. However, since it's the Basketball HOF, I think Gilmore needs to be recognized. He was an amazing player in the ABA, and had a pretty good college career, too.
RH,whats your opinion on Yao Ming's chances of getting into the basketball HOF after he retires,based on what he's already done plus whatever he does in the next few seasons?
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I mentioned Artis for his collegiate, ABA and to lesser extent NBA career. I think he's worthy.
Jo Jo is another overlooked guy. I agree on Rodman. Haywood is it for his career or his overall impact?
How about Mullin?
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Horry (when eligible) No accident that he was on so many championship teams.
....or just incredible dumb luck. If you let Horry in, we have to start talking about the Kukoc's, Cassell's, Fisher's and Kerr's of the world. No thanks.
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I'm interested in a credible argument for Dennis Rodman. He was the best rebounder in the league and a good defender but anemic on the offensive end. Was he ever a top-20 player in the NBA during his time? I don't think so. He was a great role player....I don't think that's HOF worthy, even if you do dominate on the boards.
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If you are selecting Artis Gilmore for his ABA playing days i agree but he was not a superstar or even a star player in the NBA.His numbers are good but he was not a dominating player in the NBA.He actually was a disappointment to the Bulls in a sense because he did not play up to the expectations they wanted.Ask some older NBA&Bulls fans who witnessed in those days,as i did.He doesn't belong in the NBA HOF(imo).
He didn't get the nickname "Sleeping Giant"for no reason.
I would agree if it was the NBA HOF; he had a good but not great NBA career. However, since it's the Basketball HOF, I think Gilmore needs to be recognized. He was an amazing player in the ABA, and had a pretty good college career, too.
RH,whats your opinion on Yao Ming's chances of getting into the basketball HOF after he retires,based on what he's already done plus whatever he does in the next few seasons?
As of this moment, I think you have to leave Yao out. His biggest claim to fame is that he helped make the game more popular in China. Otherwise, he's been a very good center who has been slowed down by injuries. He's only been to the playoffs four times, never making it out of the second round. He's never been in the top-five in the NBA in points, rebounds, or blocks, and has never placed higher than 12th for MVP. He doesn't have a great international or college career to help get him over the hump.
Yao has decent stats (19/9) but I personally wouldn't vote him in at this point. However, it wouldn't shock me if he did get voted in, due to his popularity and his status as the first great Asian player in the NBA.
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I'm interested in a credible argument for Dennis Rodman. He was the best rebounder in the league and a good defender but anemic on the offensive end. Was he ever a top-20 player in the NBA during his time? I don't think so. He was a great role player....I don't think that's HOF worthy, even if you do dominate on the boards.
Rodman is arguably the best rebounder of all-time (certainly, top-five), and was not a good, but a great, defender. He played on five championship teams, and was an important piece for each of them.
Why are one dimensional players like Dominique Wilkins, Adrian Dantley, or Reggie Miller (all of whom could score, but didn't do much else) good enough for the Hall of Fame, but a two-dimensional guy (defense and rebounding) like Rodman doesn't get consideration? Is it because offense is sexier than defense?
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Why are one dimensional players like Dominique Wilkins, Adrian Dantley, or Reggie Miller (all of whom could score, but didn't do much else) good enough for the Hall of Fame, but a two-dimensional guy (defense and rebounding) like Rodman doesn't get consideration? Is it because offense is sexier than defense?
The HOF doesn't reward great players - it rewards great careers. Reggie/Nique got in, not just because they could score, but because they did it at a high level for a long time. Was Reggie a great player in a vacuum? I think that's debatable. Was he able to maintain his level of consistent production for a longtime to accumulate numbers? Yes - and that's why he's in the HOF.
Also, Reggie wasn't a one-dimensional player. Nique either. To be able to score like he did, with his size, is difficult. He did it with more than a three-point-shot, other wise, he'd be Steve Kerr.
Aside from that fact - can you make a credible argument that Rodman was ever a top-20 player in the NBA? Maybe - but it is probably indisputable that Miller/Nique were always top-20 in their primes in the league.
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Rodman made two All-Star teams in his career and won 2 DPOY's. Made 2 All-NBA teams (3rd team). He's 10th all time in career rebounds per-game and 22nd all time in total. I'm just not seeing it. I'm seeing a player dominant in one facet of the game that was never one of the premier players in the game.
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Rodman isn't in the Hall of Fame because of his off the court antics. No other reason.
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No disrespect to Drazin Petrovic, he doesnt belong in the hall of fame. They pass on Artis Gilmore every year it sad. He may not been that so call elite star you guys reference alot, but those numbers are off the charts. Both ABA/NBA he should be in but Petrovic got in, what are his credentials? I'm sure there are more who shouldn't be in before Artis. Tragic Tragic Tragic...
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If you are selecting Artis Gilmore for his ABA playing days i agree but he was not a superstar or even a star player in the NBA.His numbers are good but he was not a dominating player in the NBA.He actually was a disappointment to the Bulls in a sense because he did not play up to the expectations they wanted.Ask some older NBA&Bulls fans who witnessed in those days,as i did.He doesn't belong in the NBA HOF(imo).
He didn't get the nickname "Sleeping Giant"for no reason.
I would agree if it was the NBA HOF; he had a good but not great NBA career. However, since it's the Basketball HOF, I think Gilmore needs to be recognized. He was an amazing player in the ABA, and had a pretty good college career, too.
RH,whats your opinion on Yao Ming's chances of getting into the basketball HOF after he retires,based on what he's already done plus whatever he does in the next few seasons?
As of this moment, I think you have to leave Yao out. His biggest claim to fame is that he helped make the game more popular in China. Otherwise, he's been a very good center who has been slowed down by injuries. He's only been to the playoffs four times, never making it out of the second round. He's never been in the top-five in the NBA in points, rebounds, or blocks, and has never placed higher than 12th for MVP. He doesn't have a great international or college career to help get him over the hump.
Yao has decent stats (19/9) but I personally wouldn't vote him in at this point. However, it wouldn't shock me if he did get voted in, due to his popularity and his status as the first great Asian player in the NBA.
YAO no way, if he make it in that David Stern wanting international players in off pity Like Petrovic..
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Rodman isn't in the Hall of Fame because of his off the court antics. No other reason.
Okay, if Michael Irvin can make it in and Lawarce Taylor, then Rodmen should definatly be in
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Antoine Walker?
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Dennis Rodman
co-sign x 100!!!! i would love to see stern cringe when it happens :)
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Rodman made two All-Star teams in his career and won 2 DPOY's. Made 2 All-NBA teams (3rd team). He's 10th all time in career rebounds per-game and 22nd all time in total. I'm just not seeing it. I'm seeing a player dominant in one facet of the game that was never one of the premier players in the game.
Two time DPOY but 7 time all nba 1st team defender, 1 time 2nd team. Known for much of his career as the best defender in the game. Also known for much of his career as the best rebounder in the game.
Won 7 rebounding titles. Easily the most dominant rebounder of modern times, probably dominated that statistic as much or more than anyone's dominated any stat in the last 40 years. Won his rebounding titles by around 30% at least 3-4 years in a row. If you look at the career leaders for different categories (ppg, assist per game, steals per game, blocks per game, PER, rebound%) you'll see that Rodman leads the rebounding% by the largest margin by far. The 2nd place guy is closer to 12th place than 1st.
"He's 10th all time in career rebounds per-game and 22nd all time in total" could arguably be replaced by "most dominant rebounder ever". Just glancing quickly at the rebounds per game leaders since Wilt joined the nba, it looks like, percentage-wise, Rodman won titles by 5 of the 6 largest margins of that 50 or so year period. Feel free to check them more closely, but if I'm wrong it's not by much.
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how many future HOFers are on our current roster
Shaq
KG
Ray
Pierce
Rondo?
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Pippen
Horry (when eligible) No accident that he was on so many championship teams.
Hall should be for champions.
I guess that means Fisher gets in?
Horry was on so many championship teams because the teams wanted to pick up a role player. Doesn't make him hall of fame worthy.
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Rodman made two All-Star teams in his career and won 2 DPOY's. Made 2 All-NBA teams (3rd team). He's 10th all time in career rebounds per-game and 22nd all time in total. I'm just not seeing it. I'm seeing a player dominant in one facet of the game that was never one of the premier players in the game.
Dennis Rodman is #2 all-time in offensive rebounding percentage, #3 all-time in defensive rebounding percentage, and #1 all-time in total rebounding percentage.
Those stats don't include some of the old-timers, but being #1 all-time in any major stat is pretty impressive.
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I think Rodman will eventually get inducted into the basketball HOF...usually time heals all.
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No disrespect to Drazin Petrovic, he doesnt belong in the hall of fame. They pass on Artis Gilmore every year it sad. He may not been that so call elite star you guys reference alot, but those numbers are off the charts. Both ABA/NBA he should be in but Petrovic got in, what are his credentials? I'm sure there are more who shouldn't be in before Artis. Tragic Tragic Tragic...
Petrovic was probably the best European player of all-time, and unlike Yao, he *did* have a stellar international track record. To quote one of our Croatian members:
I'm from Croatia and i was blessed to watch majority of Dražen Petrović games in Croatia and Europe. In early 80-ties basketball league of former Yugoslavia was the best league after NBA. Dražen or "Petro" make a team by 17th birthsday. Next year, only 18 years old he won league title with 2 free throws with no time left in deciding games. Won bronze in LA, silver in Seul and Barcelona. Won two euroleague titles with Cibona Zagreb, with former Yugoslavia won World and European Championchips. In golden era great players in Europe (Arvidas Sabonis, Nikos Galis, Oscar Schmidt, San Epifanio, Antonelo Riva, Dorron Jamschy, Toni Kukoć, Dino Radja, Vlade Divac...) Petro was the best. From Croatia goes to Spain to Real Madrid, in Eurocup final 1989. Oscar Schmidt scores 47 points, but Real won because Petro scored 62.
In one Euroleague game versus italian club Simac (111-95 Cibona win) he scored 47 points (19/24 FG) and 30 asists. Of 111 Cibona points 107 was his points or asists. Coach of Simac, US Dan Peterson said after "this guy can play with Bird in Boston or Magic in LA". When Portland select him in 1986. draft Petro said "i was hoping it was Boston, there apriciate white players".
In European Championchips 1989. he won gold with 30,0ppg (76% FG, 70% 3pts!!!, 95% FT), 6,0apg and 2,5 spg.
He scored game high 24 points of Barcelona final vs Dream Team against Jordan and Drexler...
With Nets scored 44 against Rockets and 39 against Celtics...
He was true basketball pioneer. Portland coach Rick Adelman didnt see his talent but after he saw how good Petro become in New Jersey Adelman had in Sacramento 3-4 european players...
Dirk Nowitzki, Peja Stojaković...all of them have Petro as rolle model...
I love Ray Allen, but if we had Dražen Petrović circa 1988-93 in final vs Lakers we would won banner 18.
Dražen Petrović is greatest European player of all-time, one of the greatest shooters of all-time and deserving HOF-er.
Peace.
Since it's the Basketball HOF, Petrovic belongs in there, in my opinion.
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If you are selecting Artis Gilmore for his ABA playing days i agree but he was not a superstar or even a star player in the NBA.His numbers are good but he was not a dominating player in the NBA.He actually was a disappointment to the Bulls in a sense because he did not play up to the expectations they wanted.Ask some older NBA&Bulls fans who witnessed in those days,as i did.He doesn't belong in the NBA HOF(imo).
He didn't get the nickname "Sleeping Giant"for no reason.
I would agree if it was the NBA HOF; he had a good but not great NBA career. However, since it's the Basketball HOF, I think Gilmore needs to be recognized. He was an amazing player in the ABA, and had a pretty good college career, too.
RH,whats your opinion on Yao Ming's chances of getting into the basketball HOF after he retires,based on what he's already done plus whatever he does in the next few seasons?
As of this moment, I think you have to leave Yao out. His biggest claim to fame is that he helped make the game more popular in China. Otherwise, he's been a very good center who has been slowed down by injuries. He's only been to the playoffs four times, never making it out of the second round. He's never been in the top-five in the NBA in points, rebounds, or blocks, and has never placed higher than 12th for MVP. He doesn't have a great international or college career to help get him over the hump.
Yao has decent stats (19/9) but I personally wouldn't vote him in at this point. However, it wouldn't shock me if he did get voted in, due to his popularity and his status as the first great Asian player in the NBA.
Thats why i asked you what you thought because he seems to be borderline at this point in his career,and if he had a good/great finish to it,its a possibility,IMO.
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If you are selecting Artis Gilmore for his ABA playing days i agree but he was not a superstar or even a star player in the NBA.His numbers are good but he was not a dominating player in the NBA.He actually was a disappointment to the Bulls in a sense because he did not play up to the expectations they wanted.Ask some older NBA&Bulls fans who witnessed in those days,as i did.He doesn't belong in the NBA HOF(imo).
He didn't get the nickname "Sleeping Giant"for no reason.
I would agree if it was the NBA HOF; he had a good but not great NBA career. However, since it's the Basketball HOF, I think Gilmore needs to be recognized. He was an amazing player in the ABA, and had a pretty good college career, too.
RH,whats your opinion on Yao Ming's chances of getting into the basketball HOF after he retires,based on what he's already done plus whatever he does in the next few seasons?
As of this moment, I think you have to leave Yao out. His biggest claim to fame is that he helped make the game more popular in China. Otherwise, he's been a very good center who has been slowed down by injuries. He's only been to the playoffs four times, never making it out of the second round. He's never been in the top-five in the NBA in points, rebounds, or blocks, and has never placed higher than 12th for MVP. He doesn't have a great international or college career to help get him over the hump.
Yao has decent stats (19/9) but I personally wouldn't vote him in at this point. However, it wouldn't shock me if he did get voted in, due to his popularity and his status as the first great Asian player in the NBA.
Thats why i asked you what you thought because he seems to be borderline at this point in his career,and if he had a good/great finish to it,its a possibility,IMO.
Yeah, if Yao finishes his career strong, he could make it, especially if he wins a title (or at least makes the Finals). Unfortunately, I worry that he'll never be the same guy again, with his foot injuries.
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Dennis Rodman
JoJo White
Spencer Haywood,
Marques Johnson,
George McGinnis,
Mel Daniels
(Agreed on Gilmore and King, too.)
I'd go along with Bernard, Marques and Jojo. I'm on the fence about Rodman though. I think he was such a distraction on and off the court that it's a legit reason to keep him out.
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I think he was such a distraction on and off the court that it's a legit reason to keep him out.
Rodman was definitely a colorful character, but did his antics negatively affect the teams he was on? He won five championships, and I wouldn't say that any of the teams he was on underachieved.
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Haywood is it for his career or his overall impact?
Both. On the court, he distinguished himself in the Olympics, in college, in the ABA, and in the NBA (albeit to a slightly lesser extent). Then, off the court, he was a pioneer in terms of allowing underclassmen to enter the draft.
How about Mullin?
I'd vote for Mullin, too. There are so many coaches and contributors in the Hall now that I'm all for balancing things by letting some of the borderline guys in.
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No disrespect to Drazin Petrovic, he doesnt belong in the hall of fame. They pass on Artis Gilmore every year it sad. He may not been that so call elite star you guys reference alot, but those numbers are off the charts. Both ABA/NBA he should be in but Petrovic got in, what are his credentials? I'm sure there are more who shouldn't be in before Artis. Tragic Tragic Tragic...
Petrovic was probably the best European player of all-time, and unlike Yao, he *did* have a stellar international track record. To quote one of our Croatian members:
I'm from Croatia and i was blessed to watch majority of Dražen Petrović games in Croatia and Europe. In early 80-ties basketball league of former Yugoslavia was the best league after NBA. Dražen or "Petro" make a team by 17th birthsday. Next year, only 18 years old he won league title with 2 free throws with no time left in deciding games. Won bronze in LA, silver in Seul and Barcelona. Won two euroleague titles with Cibona Zagreb, with former Yugoslavia won World and European Championchips. In golden era great players in Europe (Arvidas Sabonis, Nikos Galis, Oscar Schmidt, San Epifanio, Antonelo Riva, Dorron Jamschy, Toni Kukoć, Dino Radja, Vlade Divac...) Petro was the best. From Croatia goes to Spain to Real Madrid, in Eurocup final 1989. Oscar Schmidt scores 47 points, but Real won because Petro scored 62.
In one Euroleague game versus italian club Simac (111-95 Cibona win) he scored 47 points (19/24 FG) and 30 asists. Of 111 Cibona points 107 was his points or asists. Coach of Simac, US Dan Peterson said after "this guy can play with Bird in Boston or Magic in LA". When Portland select him in 1986. draft Petro said "i was hoping it was Boston, there apriciate white players".
In European Championchips 1989. he won gold with 30,0ppg (76% FG, 70% 3pts!!!, 95% FT), 6,0apg and 2,5 spg.
He scored game high 24 points of Barcelona final vs Dream Team against Jordan and Drexler...
With Nets scored 44 against Rockets and 39 against Celtics...
He was true basketball pioneer. Portland coach Rick Adelman didnt see his talent but after he saw how good Petro become in New Jersey Adelman had in Sacramento 3-4 european players...
Dirk Nowitzki, Peja Stojaković...all of them have Petro as rolle model...
I love Ray Allen, but if we had Dražen Petrović circa 1988-93 in final vs Lakers we would won banner 18.
Dražen Petrović is greatest European player of all-time, one of the greatest shooters of all-time and deserving HOF-er.
Peace.
Since it's the Basketball HOF, Petrovic belongs in there, in my opinion.
No disrepect Mr. Hobb Petrovic belongs in the Baketball International Hall of Fame But not in the NBA Hall of Fame. They send him in and not Artis Gilomore something is wrong. The numbers speak for themselves.
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No disrespect to Drazin Petrovic, he doesnt belong in the hall of fame. They pass on Artis Gilmore every year it sad. He may not been that so call elite star you guys reference alot, but those numbers are off the charts. Both ABA/NBA he should be in but Petrovic got in, what are his credentials? I'm sure there are more who shouldn't be in before Artis. Tragic Tragic Tragic...
Petrovic was probably the best European player of all-time, and unlike Yao, he *did* have a stellar international track record. To quote one of our Croatian members:
I'm from Croatia and i was blessed to watch majority of Dražen Petrović games in Croatia and Europe. In early 80-ties basketball league of former Yugoslavia was the best league after NBA. Dražen or "Petro" make a team by 17th birthsday. Next year, only 18 years old he won league title with 2 free throws with no time left in deciding games. Won bronze in LA, silver in Seul and Barcelona. Won two euroleague titles with Cibona Zagreb, with former Yugoslavia won World and European Championchips. In golden era great players in Europe (Arvidas Sabonis, Nikos Galis, Oscar Schmidt, San Epifanio, Antonelo Riva, Dorron Jamschy, Toni Kukoć, Dino Radja, Vlade Divac...) Petro was the best. From Croatia goes to Spain to Real Madrid, in Eurocup final 1989. Oscar Schmidt scores 47 points, but Real won because Petro scored 62.
In one Euroleague game versus italian club Simac (111-95 Cibona win) he scored 47 points (19/24 FG) and 30 asists. Of 111 Cibona points 107 was his points or asists. Coach of Simac, US Dan Peterson said after "this guy can play with Bird in Boston or Magic in LA". When Portland select him in 1986. draft Petro said "i was hoping it was Boston, there apriciate white players".
In European Championchips 1989. he won gold with 30,0ppg (76% FG, 70% 3pts!!!, 95% FT), 6,0apg and 2,5 spg.
He scored game high 24 points of Barcelona final vs Dream Team against Jordan and Drexler...
With Nets scored 44 against Rockets and 39 against Celtics...
He was true basketball pioneer. Portland coach Rick Adelman didnt see his talent but after he saw how good Petro become in New Jersey Adelman had in Sacramento 3-4 european players...
Dirk Nowitzki, Peja Stojaković...all of them have Petro as rolle model...
I love Ray Allen, but if we had Dražen Petrović circa 1988-93 in final vs Lakers we would won banner 18.
Dražen Petrović is greatest European player of all-time, one of the greatest shooters of all-time and deserving HOF-er.
Peace.
Since it's the Basketball HOF, Petrovic belongs in there, in my opinion.
No disrepect Mr. Hobb Petrovic belongs in the Baketball International Hall of Fame But not in the NBA Hall of Fame. They send him in and not Artis Gilomore something is wrong. The numbers speak for themselves.
The Naismith Basketball Hall of Fame in Springfield, MA, the Hall of Fame that just inducted the Dream Team and Pippen and Malone is a basketball Hall of Fame and not inclusive to just NBA players. College and international basketball is also taken into consideration for induction into the Basketball Hall of Fame. Therefore, Drazen Petrovic, probably one of the 2 or 3 greatest international players ever, is extremely deserving of being in it.
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No disrespect to Drazin Petrovic, he doesnt belong in the hall of fame. They pass on Artis Gilmore every year it sad. He may not been that so call elite star you guys reference alot, but those numbers are off the charts. Both ABA/NBA he should be in but Petrovic got in, what are his credentials? I'm sure there are more who shouldn't be in before Artis. Tragic Tragic Tragic...
Petrovic was probably the best European player of all-time, and unlike Yao, he *did* have a stellar international track record. To quote one of our Croatian members:
I'm from Croatia and i was blessed to watch majority of Dražen Petrović games in Croatia and Europe. In early 80-ties basketball league of former Yugoslavia was the best league after NBA. Dražen or "Petro" make a team by 17th birthsday. Next year, only 18 years old he won league title with 2 free throws with no time left in deciding games. Won bronze in LA, silver in Seul and Barcelona. Won two euroleague titles with Cibona Zagreb, with former Yugoslavia won World and European Championchips. In golden era great players in Europe (Arvidas Sabonis, Nikos Galis, Oscar Schmidt, San Epifanio, Antonelo Riva, Dorron Jamschy, Toni Kukoć, Dino Radja, Vlade Divac...) Petro was the best. From Croatia goes to Spain to Real Madrid, in Eurocup final 1989. Oscar Schmidt scores 47 points, but Real won because Petro scored 62.
In one Euroleague game versus italian club Simac (111-95 Cibona win) he scored 47 points (19/24 FG) and 30 asists. Of 111 Cibona points 107 was his points or asists. Coach of Simac, US Dan Peterson said after "this guy can play with Bird in Boston or Magic in LA". When Portland select him in 1986. draft Petro said "i was hoping it was Boston, there apriciate white players".
In European Championchips 1989. he won gold with 30,0ppg (76% FG, 70% 3pts!!!, 95% FT), 6,0apg and 2,5 spg.
He scored game high 24 points of Barcelona final vs Dream Team against Jordan and Drexler...
With Nets scored 44 against Rockets and 39 against Celtics...
He was true basketball pioneer. Portland coach Rick Adelman didnt see his talent but after he saw how good Petro become in New Jersey Adelman had in Sacramento 3-4 european players...
Dirk Nowitzki, Peja Stojaković...all of them have Petro as rolle model...
I love Ray Allen, but if we had Dražen Petrović circa 1988-93 in final vs Lakers we would won banner 18.
Dražen Petrović is greatest European player of all-time, one of the greatest shooters of all-time and deserving HOF-er.
Peace.
Since it's the Basketball HOF, Petrovic belongs in there, in my opinion.
No disrepect Mr. Hobb Petrovic belongs in the Baketball International Hall of Fame But not in the NBA Hall of Fame. They send him in and not Artis Gilomore something is wrong. The numbers speak for themselves.
Like nick said, the Hall of Fame is a "basketball" Hall of Fame. International basketball, college basketball, women's basketball, ABA basketball, and NBA basketball are all represented.
Ironically enough, if you only look at Gilmore's NBA career, he probably doesn't belong, either. He had a good but not great run in the NBA, averaging 17/10 for his career (and 12/8 in the playoffs). However, in the ABA, he was All-ABA five times, was ABA rookie of the year, won a playoff MVP, and won a title. Take all of that off of his resume', and he's not really even in the conversation for the NBA HOF.
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Some good points on Haywood, Roy. He's one of those guys who gets forgotten. To me, they need to put in Haywood, Gilmore, White, Rodman, King and Mullin. To many excellent NBAers that aren't in.
Oh and Petrovic deserves to be in.
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No disrespect to Drazin Petrovic, he doesnt belong in the hall of fame. They pass on Artis Gilmore every year it sad. He may not been that so call elite star you guys reference alot, but those numbers are off the charts. Both ABA/NBA he should be in but Petrovic got in, what are his credentials? I'm sure there are more who shouldn't be in before Artis. Tragic Tragic Tragic...
Petrovic was probably the best European player of all-time, and unlike Yao, he *did* have a stellar international track record. To quote one of our Croatian members:
I'm from Croatia and i was blessed to watch majority of Dražen Petrović games in Croatia and Europe. In early 80-ties basketball league of former Yugoslavia was the best league after NBA. Dražen or "Petro" make a team by 17th birthsday. Next year, only 18 years old he won league title with 2 free throws with no time left in deciding games. Won bronze in LA, silver in Seul and Barcelona. Won two euroleague titles with Cibona Zagreb, with former Yugoslavia won World and European Championchips. In golden era great players in Europe (Arvidas Sabonis, Nikos Galis, Oscar Schmidt, San Epifanio, Antonelo Riva, Dorron Jamschy, Toni Kukoć, Dino Radja, Vlade Divac...) Petro was the best. From Croatia goes to Spain to Real Madrid, in Eurocup final 1989. Oscar Schmidt scores 47 points, but Real won because Petro scored 62.
In one Euroleague game versus italian club Simac (111-95 Cibona win) he scored 47 points (19/24 FG) and 30 asists. Of 111 Cibona points 107 was his points or asists. Coach of Simac, US Dan Peterson said after "this guy can play with Bird in Boston or Magic in LA". When Portland select him in 1986. draft Petro said "i was hoping it was Boston, there apriciate white players".
In European Championchips 1989. he won gold with 30,0ppg (76% FG, 70% 3pts!!!, 95% FT), 6,0apg and 2,5 spg.
He scored game high 24 points of Barcelona final vs Dream Team against Jordan and Drexler...
With Nets scored 44 against Rockets and 39 against Celtics...
He was true basketball pioneer. Portland coach Rick Adelman didnt see his talent but after he saw how good Petro become in New Jersey Adelman had in Sacramento 3-4 european players...
Dirk Nowitzki, Peja Stojaković...all of them have Petro as rolle model...
I love Ray Allen, but if we had Dražen Petrović circa 1988-93 in final vs Lakers we would won banner 18.
Dražen Petrović is greatest European player of all-time, one of the greatest shooters of all-time and deserving HOF-er.
Peace.
Since it's the Basketball HOF, Petrovic belongs in there, in my opinion.
No disrepect Mr. Hobb Petrovic belongs in the Baketball International Hall of Fame But not in the NBA Hall of Fame. They send him in and not Artis Gilomore something is wrong. The numbers speak for themselves.
Like nick said, the Hall of Fame is a "basketball" Hall of Fame. International basketball, college basketball, women's basketball, ABA basketball, and NBA basketball are all represented.
Ironically enough, if you only look at Gilmore's NBA career, he probably doesn't belong, either. He had a good but not great run in the NBA, averaging 17/10 for his career (and 12/8 in the playoffs). However, in the ABA, he was All-ABA five times, was ABA rookie of the year, won a playoff MVP, and won a title. Take all of that off of his resume', and he's not really even in the conversation for the NBA HOF.
So the same can be said about Drazen too?
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No disrespect to Drazin Petrovic, he doesnt belong in the hall of fame. They pass on Artis Gilmore every year it sad. He may not been that so call elite star you guys reference alot, but those numbers are off the charts. Both ABA/NBA he should be in but Petrovic got in, what are his credentials? I'm sure there are more who shouldn't be in before Artis. Tragic Tragic Tragic...
Petrovic was probably the best European player of all-time, and unlike Yao, he *did* have a stellar international track record. To quote one of our Croatian members:
I'm from Croatia and i was blessed to watch majority of Dražen Petrović games in Croatia and Europe. In early 80-ties basketball league of former Yugoslavia was the best league after NBA. Dražen or "Petro" make a team by 17th birthsday. Next year, only 18 years old he won league title with 2 free throws with no time left in deciding games. Won bronze in LA, silver in Seul and Barcelona. Won two euroleague titles with Cibona Zagreb, with former Yugoslavia won World and European Championchips. In golden era great players in Europe (Arvidas Sabonis, Nikos Galis, Oscar Schmidt, San Epifanio, Antonelo Riva, Dorron Jamschy, Toni Kukoć, Dino Radja, Vlade Divac...) Petro was the best. From Croatia goes to Spain to Real Madrid, in Eurocup final 1989. Oscar Schmidt scores 47 points, but Real won because Petro scored 62.
In one Euroleague game versus italian club Simac (111-95 Cibona win) he scored 47 points (19/24 FG) and 30 asists. Of 111 Cibona points 107 was his points or asists. Coach of Simac, US Dan Peterson said after "this guy can play with Bird in Boston or Magic in LA". When Portland select him in 1986. draft Petro said "i was hoping it was Boston, there apriciate white players".
In European Championchips 1989. he won gold with 30,0ppg (76% FG, 70% 3pts!!!, 95% FT), 6,0apg and 2,5 spg.
He scored game high 24 points of Barcelona final vs Dream Team against Jordan and Drexler...
With Nets scored 44 against Rockets and 39 against Celtics...
He was true basketball pioneer. Portland coach Rick Adelman didnt see his talent but after he saw how good Petro become in New Jersey Adelman had in Sacramento 3-4 european players...
Dirk Nowitzki, Peja Stojaković...all of them have Petro as rolle model...
I love Ray Allen, but if we had Dražen Petrović circa 1988-93 in final vs Lakers we would won banner 18.
Dražen Petrović is greatest European player of all-time, one of the greatest shooters of all-time and deserving HOF-er.
Peace.
Since it's the Basketball HOF, Petrovic belongs in there, in my opinion.
No disrepect Mr. Hobb Petrovic belongs in the Baketball International Hall of Fame But not in the NBA Hall of Fame. They send him in and not Artis Gilomore something is wrong. The numbers speak for themselves.
Like nick said, the Hall of Fame is a "basketball" Hall of Fame. International basketball, college basketball, women's basketball, ABA basketball, and NBA basketball are all represented.
Ironically enough, if you only look at Gilmore's NBA career, he probably doesn't belong, either. He had a good but not great run in the NBA, averaging 17/10 for his career (and 12/8 in the playoffs). However, in the ABA, he was All-ABA five times, was ABA rookie of the year, won a playoff MVP, and won a title. Take all of that off of his resume', and he's not really even in the conversation for the NBA HOF.
So the same can be said about Drazen too?
Meaning that Drazen wouldn't make it into an NBA HOF? There's no way he would. He never made an All-Star team (although he was All-NBA once). He doesn't have the NBA credentials, without his international track record.
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I'm interested in a credible argument for Dennis Rodman. He was the best rebounder in the league and a good defender but anemic on the offensive end. Was he ever a top-20 player in the NBA during his time? I don't think so. He was a great role player....I don't think that's HOF worthy, even if you do dominate on the boards.
Definitely a top 20 player for several years. Rodman's game was Bill Russellesque. He did all the dirty work that let the stars shine and produced championships.
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Pippen
Horry (when eligible) No accident that he was on so many championship teams.
Hall should be for champions.
I guess that means Fisher gets in?
Horry was on so many championship teams because the teams wanted to pick up a role player. Doesn't make him hall of fame worthy.
I know I'm in the minority, but I think Horry should be in too.
What I think separates Horry from a guy like Fisher is Horry did it on 3 different teams, so it looks less like luck.
Only 9 guys have won 7 or more championships, 8 of them were on the 60's Celtics, the other one is Horry. If Fisher gets up to 7, I might consider him too (but probably not).
I don't think all role players should get in, but I would let the best role player ever in, and Horry has some of the best credentials to be considered the best role player ever. And not many players, whether role player or star, has hit more clutch shots than Horry.
If you want to call it luck, that's cool, but I wouldn't have a problem letting somebody who was consistently lucky over his career and is probably the luckiest players ever in. Luckiest player ever I'd put in, all others who were just pretty lucky I'd leave out.
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I agree on just about everybody mentioned, most especially Chris Mullin and Bernard King. I would like to mention also Walter "The Greyhound" Davis, but, I don't think the HOF people will forget his past. Some foreign born players such as Oscar Schmidt of Brazil, Arvydas Sabonis and Sarunas Marciulionis (not for their NBA days), Carlos Loyzaga of the Philippines, and Hur Jae of South Korea.
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What about Larry Nance,drafted by the Suns but played his later years in Cleveland...Larry was Rodman-like on defense before Rodman was known for his defense.Nance was a very good offensive scorer as well.Id vote for him.
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From NBA: White, Rodman, King, Mullin, Gilmore
Internationally: Greek Galis, Serbs Divac and Slavnic, Croats Kukoc and Giergia, Spain San Epifanio, Izrael Jamschi
And i must say, thinking that Drazen Petrovic should't be in HOF is simply arrogance, same kind of arrogance that cost US in WC 2002 in Indianapolis and Olympics in 2004 in Athens.
Peace.
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I don't get Jo Jo White's exclusion from the Hall. All-American quality college player. 7-time All-Star, Finals MVP, very good to excellent defender. A pretty automatic 20 PPG, 5 RPG, 5 APG through most of his career in Boston while shooting 45% from the field, mostly on outside shots.
Is there any doubt of those that saw Jo Jo play on a regular basis that if the three point line were around in his days that he would probably already be in the Hall for having most of the three point records from an earlier generation? Is there any doubt that he would have had a generous surge in his scoring average if the three point line existed in the NBA in the 70's?
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I don't get Jo Jo White's exclusion from the Hall. All-American quality college player. 7-time All-Star, Finals MVP, very good to excellent defender. A pretty automatic 20 PPG, 5 RPG, 5 APG through most of his career in Boston while shooting 45% from the field, mostly on outside shots.
Is there any doubt of those that saw Jo Jo play on a regular basis that if the three point line were around in his days that he would probably already be in the Hall for having most of the three point records from an earlier generation? Is there any doubt that he would have had a generous surge in his scoring average if the three point line existed in the NBA in the 70's?
I agree 100%,i was one of those who watched him play on a regular basis...its all so crazy that he's not in the HOF.I had assumed he had already been inducted,go figure.tp
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I think he was such a distraction on and off the court that it's a legit reason to keep him out.
Rodman was definitely a colorful character, but did his antics negatively affect the teams he was on? He won five championships, and I wouldn't say that any of the teams he was on underachieved.
I don't think he stopped championship-calibur teams from winning but his on-court antics did serve as an unnecessary distraction for his team and the game in general. I'm not knocking his defense, effort or rebounding. I wouldn't be upset if he got into the Hall, but if I had a ballot, I'd have to think about voting him in for awhile.
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I think he was such a distraction on and off the court that it's a legit reason to keep him out.
Rodman was definitely a colorful character, but did his antics negatively affect the teams he was on? He won five championships, and I wouldn't say that any of the teams he was on underachieved.
I don't think he stopped championship-calibur teams from winning but his on-court antics did serve as an unnecessary distraction for his team and the game in general.
I think his oncourt antics actually helped his teams. Of course you have instances like kicking a camera man that obviously didn't help anyone, but part of the genius of Rodman was how he could get under opponents skin. How many times did players take swings at him or shove him? His oncourt antics led to guys like Karl Malone, Alonzo Mourning, Shaquille O'Neal, etc. getting technicals and ejected. If the Bulls are playing the Jazz and Rodman and Malone get tangled up and get double techincals or both get ejected or something like that, who suffers more, the Bulls or the Jazz? That right there is the genius of Dennis Rodman.
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Rodman isn't in the Hall of Fame because of his off the court antics. No other reason.
100% agree
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Rodman isn't in the Hall of Fame because of his off the court antics. No other reason.
100% agree
Rodman is a champion. His off-court antics were weird but harmless. He focused on the court. That's what the hall should be for. Champions. Using that criteria and being consistent, a flopping jerk but multiple champion like Derek Fisher should probably join him...Along with Robert Horry. Guys like the above don't get there by riding other player's coat tails. They come through when needed in their roles.
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Rodman isn't in the Hall of Fame because of his off the court antics. No other reason.
100% agree
Rodman is a champion. His off-court antics were weird but harmless. He focused on the court. That's what the hall should be for. Champions. Using that criteria and being consistent, a flopping jerk but multiple champion like Derek Fisher should probably join him...Along with Robert Horry. Guys like the above don't get there by riding other player's coat tails. They come through when needed in their roles.
What about guys like Barkley, Malone, Stockton, etc.?
Does a guy like Payton -- who road coattails to finally win a title -- get inducted, even though he was never really a key piece on a championship squad?
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I don't get the " the Hall is for Champions" argument. The Hall is for people who through tremendous accomplishments forwarded the game of basketball. Awesome individual play and great team play of players should be a prerequisite.
Derek Fisher might have been a great team player but he was never an awesome individual player. Neither was Robert Horry. Or AC Green. Or Danny Ainge. They are not Hall worthy as players.
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Rodman was a dominant rebounder and defender, not sexy but still Hall Worthy. Its very true that scorers get more notice and are more easily recognized.
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I just looked over Artis Gilmore's career stats and Bio on NBA.com Historical Player Search. The man should definitely get some consideration for the Hall.
In today's Media-Driven sports market, I can understand why Artis wouldn't be considered - he was rather low-key and didn't draw attention to himself during his career.
Check out his stats - over 17 pts and 10+ boards a game.
Made the All-Star game 6 times. In his Bio, it made mention that he played Kareem tougher than anyone in the league in the early 80's.
He managed to take San Antonio far in the playoffs, but lost to LA in the WCF two yrs in a row from what the Bio says.
I even remember him visiting one of the ships that were in my Naval Strike Group a few years ago.
Just my opinion - but he deserves some recognition for the Hall. If anything, I'd place him among Barkley, Patrick, Stockton, Malone, etc, as players who were dominant, but unfortunately never won a title.
The stats do indeed speak for themselves.
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Dennis Rodman is the greatest rebounder in NBA history. He is also top five all time as a defender. There is no reason in the world he shouldn't be in the HOF.
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I just looked over Artis Gilmore's career stats and Bio on NBA.com Historical Player Search. The man should definitely get some consideration for the Hall. . . .
Just my opinion - but he deserves some recognition for the Hall. If anything, I'd place him among Barkley, Patrick, Stockton, Malone, etc, as players who were dominant, but unfortunately never won a title.
The stats do indeed speak for themselves.
I wouldn't put him on the same level as Barkley, Ewing, Stockton, or Malone. I don't think Gilmore was ever what I'd call dominant during his NBA days, but he was good. ("Dominant" may apply to his ABA time, though). What Gilmore was was a very good player, who is worthy of recognition. He'd be one of the lesser players in the Hall, in my opinion, but certainly not the worst.
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I just looked over Artis Gilmore's career stats and Bio on NBA.com Historical Player Search. The man should definitely get some consideration for the Hall. . . .
Just my opinion - but he deserves some recognition for the Hall. If anything, I'd place him among Barkley, Patrick, Stockton, Malone, etc, as players who were dominant, but unfortunately never won a title.
The stats do indeed speak for themselves.
I wouldn't put him on the same level as Barkley, Ewing, Stockton, or Malone. I don't think Gilmore was ever what I'd call dominant during his NBA days, but he was good. ("Dominant" may apply to his ABA time, though). What Gilmore was was a very good player, who is worthy of recognition. He'd be one of the lesser players in the Hall, in my opinion, but certainly not the worst.
He only wouldn't be the worst (as far as guys being inducted for NBA careers) because of all the lesser players that made it in from the very early days of the NBA.
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Just posted Gilmore's Bio and Career stats below. I meant to do it this morning, but was half-asleep and drained from schoolwork:
http://www.nba.com/historical/playerfile/index.html?player=artis_gilmore
Moranis and Roy H: You make good points. His truly dominant years were maybe just 2-3 years, and after that he put up really good stats, but they didn't really stand out.
And as for Rodman? I agree with those that say he should definitely be in the Hall, no question. He is still getting punished for his off-court antics back in the day.
My thing with Rodman is this: He isn't as "Out-there" anymore as he was. I guess it can be attributed to him maturing.
It's time to put Rodman in the Hall. His stats and Rings speak for themselves.
And - what about Tom Chambers? When we had a similar HOF discussion several months ago, I think the consensus was that Tom couldn't be considered because of lack of banners. Well, he did in fact get to the Finals - but lost. That man was rather talented for a Big, to say the least. See Tom's stats below, especially 88-90. The man seemed unstoppable those two yrs:
http://www.nba.com/historical/playerfile/index.html?player=tom_chambers
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Tom Chambers had some "Ups"....we all know about that dunk he had over Mark Jackson back in the day, but he destroyed big men, too. Robert Reid was a 6'9" SG that got in Tom's way on this play:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kAmjLaHf1h8
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I don't get the " the Hall is for Champions" argument. The Hall is for people who through tremendous accomplishments forwarded the game of basketball. Awesome individual play and great team play of players should be a prerequisite.
Derek Fisher might have been a great team player but he was never an awesome individual player. Neither was Robert Horry. Or AC Green. Or Danny Ainge. They are not Hall worthy as players.
I don't get the " the Hall is for Champions" argument. The Hall is for people who through tremendous accomplishments forwarded the game of basketball. Awesome individual play and great team play of players should be a prerequisite.
Derek Fisher might have been a great team player but he was never an awesome individual player. Neither was Robert Horry. Or AC Green. Or Danny Ainge. They are not Hall worthy as players.
Using that argument you'd put career one-trick pony losers with great stats like Iverson, Abdur-Rahim, Carter, and O'Grady in ahead of multiple championship role players?
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Tom Chambers had some "Ups"....we all know about that dunk he had over Mark Jackson back in the day, but he destroyed big men, too. Robert Reid was a 6'9" SG that got in Tom's way on this play:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kAmjLaHf1h8
Tom Chambers definitely had game...he belongs in the HOF.As far as Glimore,i say no because the HOF is for players excelling at every level of basketball they've played.When Artis came to the NBA,he did not become a star player,was medicore at best.Some people would say Artis was a big disappointment when he came over to the NBA.tp
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I feel Jack Sikma and Tom Chambers never got their proper respect by the NBA...for those who didn't witness them play or weren't old enough to understand the game as they might do now,those two players were probably as good as any players they played aganist.I say Sikma got overshadowed by Kareem's success in those days but he was the deadliest outside shooting big man in the NBA for a long period.He could play inside/out equally as good.Pau Gasol couldn't tie these guys sneakers if they were playing in the same playing era..(IMO)
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Tom Chambers had some "Ups"....we all know about that dunk he had over Mark Jackson back in the day, but he destroyed big men, too. Robert Reid was a 6'9" SG that got in Tom's way on this play:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kAmjLaHf1h8
Tom Chambers definitely had game...he belongs in the HOF.As far as Glimore,i say no because the HOF is for players excelling at every level of basketball they've played.When Artis came to the NBA,he did not become a star player,was medicore at best.Some people would say Artis was a big disappointment when he came over to the NBA.tp
I think Gilmore's rap was that he wasn't as vocal as some stars of his day. But several All-Star games and those solid stats speak well for him.
I think the biggest thing with Artis was that he never had a lot of great players around him. From reading Gilmore's Bio, I think he had Dan Issel in CHI, and George Gervin in San Antonio. That's it.
It would've been interesting to see him in LA with Magic - or Boston with Larry.
Tom had a lot of above average-to-great players around him in PHX and SEA, too - Thunder Dan Marle, Kevin Johnson..Xavier McDaniel, Sir Charles, Mark West, Nate McMillan, Dale Ellis...
Artis Gilmore just went about his games doing the dirty work - quietly. From my limited memory of him, he was a monster in the paint, and strong to boot.
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I feel Jack Sikma and Tom Chambers never got their proper respect by the NBA...for those who didn't witness them play or weren't old enough to understand the game as they might do now,those two players were probably as good as any players they played aganist.I say Sikma got overshadowed by Kareem's success in those days but he was the deadliest outside shooting big man in the NBA for a long period.He could play inside/out equally as good.Pau Gasol couldn't tie these guys sneakers if they were playing in the same playing era..(IMO)
+1
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I love Jack Sikma he was very good.
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I am not a fan of how most Hall of Fame's are run for sports, and Basketball is among the worst. It should be a museum basically for the history of the sport. That includes players who were under the radar but should be known by guys who know their hoops like Chambers or players who even have had character issues, like Rodman. Rodman is one of the very best rebounders of all time and was a key member of some of the best basketball teams of all time... he belongs in the HOF for sure.
It's not the "Hall of Honorable Players" or "Hall of Good Guys", it's the "Hall of Fame", so it should include all notable players of a certain level IMO. To use baseball as an example, it should include all players during the steroid era regardless of whatever proof or suspition of PED use because that cannot be proven and it doesn't matter anyways. Put a note that they used steroids or whatever but they still were an important part of the sport for a time, and that should be what it's all about.
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I love Jack Sikma he was very good.
Yes he was a Great Center. I remember him mostly from his days in MIL - he had that J and could hit it from long distance. Even with his outside game, he still managed to pull down almost 10 rebs a game.
He gave us fits when he was in MIL back in the 80's.
Now - what about Bill Laimbeer? I'd take him over Tom Chambers, Jack Sikma, or Artis.
Is he in the HOF? If not, then that man should be there, IMO - at least he won a ring with Detroit if I'm not mistaken. That man was tough as nails, and Dirty. I hated to see Boston play aginst him and Rick Mahorn - McNasty and McFilthy. You just know there'd be a fight.
EDIT: "McNasty and McFilthy" were Ric Mahorn and Jeff Ruland from the 80's Washington Bullets (not Pistons). I got my wires crossed there for a minute. My bad.
Bill just seemed to bring out the "Best" in people. I'd never seen Chief get upset until he took Bill out in that game back in the 80's. I haven't found it on Youtube yet, but I did find this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GtzvACLX0YE
Now how many players get Video Games named after them? This is Too Funny ;D
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Yep - Bill Laimbeer was an absolute Beast. He may not have had a traditional Big Man post-up game, but if this man isn't in the Hall, then something's not right.
The clip below shows some good highlights of Bill Laimbeer. The man was definitely legit - and a little crazy:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hMiVs2SInCY&feature=related
Talk about heart - that man was about to fight Charles Barkley if it wasn't for the refs. He may have taken Charles, too..Bill was a strong man.
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I love Jack Sikma he was very good.
Yes he was a Great Center. I remember him mostly from his days in MIL - he had that J and could hit it from long distance. Even with his outside game, he still managed to pull down almost 10 rebs a game.
He gave us fits when he was in MIL back in the 80's.
Now - what about Bill Laimbeer? I'd take him over Tom Chambers, Jack Sikma, or Artis.
Is he in the HOF? If not, then that man should be there, IMO - at least he won a ring with Detroit if I'm not mistaken. That man was tough as nails, and Dirty. I hated to see Boston play aginst him and Rick Mahorn - McNasty and McFilthy. You just know there'd be a fight.
Bill just seemed to bring out the "Best" in people. I'd never seen Chief get upset until he took Bill out in that game back in the 80's. I haven't found it on Youtube yet, but I did find this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GtzvACLX0YE
Now how many players get Video Games named after them? This is Too Funny ;D
TP for posting about "Bill Lambeer's Combat Basketball" game. I used to own that one for my SNES. Plenty of players had their own games back then, I remember games like Ken Griffey baseball and Bo Jackson's football game in the "2D" days for Genesis, SNES, Nintendo, etc and Kobe even was in the title of a game as late as the N64, Courtside. Madden is probably the only one from that named era who still has the game named after him.
But none were funnier than Combat Basketball because of how it took his dirty and physical play to the hilarious extreme with the future combat cyber sport motif.
Those Pistons teams played Combat Basketball every night ;D
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Good Grief - I had forgotten about Tom Chambers' 60 pt game:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L1fOahHPWfI
I don't know the criteria for the Hall, but there are quite a few players that are right there, it seems.
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Sikma and Laimbeer I could see, Chambers is a stretch but he has the sickest dunk I have ever seen ever.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UDyBSTQDwH8
Right over Laker loving Marc Jackson, priceless.
Proof that some white guys can jump.
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Sikma and Laimbeer I could see, Chambers is a stretch but he has the sickest dunk I have ever seen ever.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UDyBSTQDwH8
Right over Laker loving Marc Jackson, priceless.
Proof that some white guys can jump.
Thanks for that post - Tom did that for several years, too.
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JoJo was my favorite player growing up and I believe he'll be in the hall eventually. And, seeing as he doesn't seem to age, he'll be around to see it. That said, if the criteria for NBA Hall-worthy were equivalent to MLB, JoJo would be in already. But, the standard just seems higher in the NBA.
Bernard King's exclusion blows me away. One thing you can't say about JoJo is that he was undeniably the best at anything at any point in his career. Well, Bernard King was THE best scorer in the NBA for a period of time. I don't have time to look at his career stats right now -- but, it had to have been a 5 year stretch where he was unstopable.
Rodman should be in. He was unique and the best at key elements of the game for an extended period of time. Who can argue that he is not among the handful of greatest rebounders and defenders of all-time? That sounds like HOF to me.
I couldn't disagree more re: Horry or his ilk (good, clutch role players) being in the hall. Not to disparage a wonderful role player and clutch performer -- his feats (prolific championships and clutch plays) should be part of NBA history (and thus in the HOF museum), but he does not rank (IMO) among the greats.
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I'm interested in a credible argument for Dennis Rodman. He was the best rebounder in the league and a good defender but anemic on the offensive end. Was he ever a top-20 player in the NBA during his time? I don't think so. He was a great role player....I don't think that's HOF worthy, even if you do dominate on the boards.
Agreed. Dude was otherworldly on the boards, and a fine defender early in his career*, but he was horrific on offense. Anyone that is that awful at such a vital part of the game shouldn't be in the hall.
And when it comes to Artis Gilmore, I have no problem with him not being in the hall. People that followed the league back in his day rarely have anything good to say about him. Was the kind of guy that winning didn't mean all that much to.
And guys like Spencer Haywood, Marques Johnson, and Bernard King were fine players, but whether it was because of injuries or drug abuse, they just didn't have enough great years in the league.
I've always wished they had higher standards for getting into the Hall. It's certainly not a popular sentiment, but I had no problem with DJ not being in the hall. A fine player, but he never struck me as a surefire HOFer.
*Dude was overrated on D in his years with the Bulls and the Spurs. His obsession with boards caused his defense to suffer. He could still crank it up when he wanted to (see 97 Finals vs. Malone), but he coasted a lot on D.
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I love Jack Sikma he was very good.
Yes he was a Great Center. I remember him mostly from his days in MIL - he had that J and could hit it from long distance. Even with his outside game, he still managed to pull down almost 10 rebs a game.
He gave us fits when he was in MIL back in the 80's.
Now - what about Bill Laimbeer? I'd take him over Tom Chambers, Jack Sikma, or Artis.
Is he in the HOF? If not, then that man should be there, IMO - at least he won a ring with Detroit if I'm not mistaken. That man was tough as nails, and Dirty. I hated to see Boston play aginst him and Rick Mahorn - McNasty and McFilthy. You just know there'd be a fight.
EDIT: "McNasty and McFilthy" were Ric Mahorn and Jeff Ruland - from the Washington Bullets (not Pistons) days of the 80's. I got my wires crossed there for a minute. My bad.
Bill just seemed to bring out the "Best" in people. I'd never seen Chief get upset until he took Bill out in that game back in the 80's. I haven't found it on Youtube yet, but I did find this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GtzvACLX0YE
Now how many players get Video Games named after them? This is Too Funny ;D
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2nd correction - Bill Laimbeer won Two titles.....I hated the blows against Bird and our Celtics (loved the ones against LA ;D), but other than that this player was one of a kind.
If not in the Hall, then he should be considered. Another video showcasing his strengths a little better:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v7ZKBKIMEWY&feature=related
The stats at the end are impressive, too.
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I'm interested in a credible argument for Dennis Rodman. He was the best rebounder in the league and a good defender but anemic on the offensive end. Was he ever a top-20 player in the NBA during his time? I don't think so. He was a great role player....I don't think that's HOF worthy, even if you do dominate on the boards.
Agreed. Dude was otherworldly on the boards, and a fine defender early in his career*, but he was horrific on offense. Anyone that is that awful at such a vital part of the game shouldn't be in the hall.
And when it comes to Artis Gilmore, I have no problem with him not being in the hall. People that followed the league back in his day rarely have anything good to say about him. Was the kind of guy that winning didn't mean all that much to.
And guys like Spencer Haywood, Marques Johnson, and Bernard King were fine players, but whether it was because of injuries or drug abuse, they just didn't have enough great years in the league.
I've always wished they had higher standards for getting into the Hall. It's certainly not a popular sentiment, but I had no problem with DJ not being in the hall. A fine player, but he never struck me as a surefire HOFer.
*Dude was overrated on D in his years with the Bulls and the Spurs. His obsession with boards caused his defense to suffer. He could still crank it up when he wanted to (see 97 Finals vs. Malone), but he coasted a lot on D.
I disagree about him coasting or being overrated on D, he was good, and remains one of the best rebounders ever. He was also a part of multiple great Bulls teams, a Dynasty, and a few of the best teams ever. Alright he was not the best offensive player, but rebounding and defense are huge parts of the game that count for a lot to me.
Anyone who is a notable and high level player should be able to enter the hall, and Dennis Rodman was that. In my HOF he would be in. Being a major part of a dynasty and being one of the best ever at a big part of the game you play (rebounding) is noteworthy.