CelticsStrong
Around the League => Around the NBA => Topic started by: Roy Hobbs on October 07, 2009, 09:50:46 PM
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Split from another thread:
I have a hard time blaming Lebron for the Cavs failures. Who has his best teammate been? Mo Williams? And yet, in his career, he's carried a poor team to the Finals, and won 66 games with another team that wasn't anything special. There's no doubt in my mind that Lebron will win multiple championships in his career, once he's surrounded by legitimate teammates.
He's got a good cast around him this year. I think the Celts are better, but Lebron is a concern.
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So what was the excuse this year? And the year before last year? And the one before that? And what will it be this year?
I have a hard time blaming Lebron for the Cavs failures. Who has his best teammate been? Mo Williams? And yet, in his career, he's carried a poor team to the Finals, and won 66 games with another team that wasn't anything special. There's no doubt in my mind that Lebron will win multiple championships in his career, once he's surrounded by legitimate teammates.
He's got a good cast around him this year. I think the Celts are better, but Lebron is a concern.
So Lamar Odom, Pau gasol, and Andrew bynum is somehow a lot better than Ilgauskas, Mo Williams, Delonte, and varejo?
I don't know about that
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So Lamar Odom, Pau gasol, and Andrew bynum is somehow a lot better than Ilgauskas, Mo Williams, Delonte, and varejo?
I don't know about that
You don't? I think you're probably the only one, then.
Plus, of course, Kobe had Fisher and Ariza, as well. I know which group I'd take if I was starting a team (at least after I washed the Lakers stink off of them.)
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i didn't get the feeling Lebron was a lot better than Pierce when PP was kicking his butt in the 2007 playoffs.
Lebron....the guy is a champion on every level other than college and pro
I don't think that's fair. That series wouldn't have gone seven games without Lebron. He outscored and out-assisted Paul in all seven games, and out-rebounded him in five of them.
Neither one of them shot particularly well in that series, but Lebron's other contributions trumped Pierce. I have a hard time saying Paul outplayed LBJ in that series.
Waaaaitttt a second.
Game 2 he goes for 21 and 6 assists (the most by a Cav which kept happening the whole series) while PP goes for 19 to lead the Celts and the Cavs lose by 16. That's not a good stat line for Lebron, it's a bad one. When you dominate the ball and your team loses it doesn't mean you outplayed anyone.
In game 5 Lebron scored 35 and led his team with 5 assists (while PP led the Celts with 29) and his team lost by 7.
Game 7 he goes for 45 points and leads in assists again while PP goes for 41 and his team loses by 5. Another bad stat line. Maybe a little defense might be a good idea Brony? Maybe hold your man under his average?
How is it good if you get in a shootout with another guy and win the shootout while losing the game?
If you outproduce the guy you're guarding in pretty much every area, but you lose because the other guy has better teammates, it doesn't me that you individually were outplayed.
So what was the excuse this year? And the year before last year? And the one before that? And what will it be this year?
I have a hard time blaming Lebron for the Cavs failures. Who has his best teammate been? Mo Williams? And yet, in his career, he's carried a poor team to the Finals, and won 66 games with another team that wasn't anything special. There's no doubt in my mind that Lebron will win multiple championships in his career, once he's surrounded by legitimate teammates.
He's got a good cast around him this year. I think the Celts are better, but Lebron is a concern.
So Lamar Odom, Pau gasol, and Andrew bynum is somehow a lot better than Ilgauskas, Mo Williams, Delonte, and varejo?
I don't know about that
Yes, and I'm not sure it's particularly close.
And see also Roy's comments re: Ariza.
-sw
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So Lamar Odom, Pau gasol, and Andrew bynum is somehow a lot better than Ilgauskas, Mo Williams, Delonte, and varejo?
I don't know about that
You don't? I think you're probably the only one, then.
Plus, of course, Kobe had Fisher and Ariza, as well. I know which group I'd take if I was starting a team (at least after I washed the Lakers stink off of them.)
Wait a second. Odom has never been an all-star and Gasol has only been one twice, whereas Mo Williams was this year and Illgauskas is a two timer. bynum averaged 14 and 8 in 50 whole games played, but only 6.3 and 3.7 in the playoffs. Varejao played better than that in the playoffs. Delonte scored twice as much in the playoffs as Ariza.
What next? Luke Walton is a lot better than Daniel Gibson?
Is this to say that if Lebron and Kobe get traded straight up Cleveland gets worse and LA gets better?
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So Lamar Odom, Pau gasol, and Andrew bynum is somehow a lot better than Ilgauskas, Mo Williams, Delonte, and varejo?
I don't know about that
You don't? I think you're probably the only one, then.
Plus, of course, Kobe had Fisher and Ariza, as well. I know which group I'd take if I was starting a team (at least after I washed the Lakers stink off of them.)
Wait a second. Odom has never been an all-star and Gasol has only been one twice, whereas Mo Williams was this year and Illgauskas is a two timer. bynum averaged 14 and 8 in 50 whole games played, but only 6.3 and 3.7 in the playoffs. Varejao played better than that in the playoffs. Delonte scored twice as much in the playoffs as Ariza.
What next? Luke Walton is a lot better than Daniel Gibson?
Is this to say that if Lebron and Kobe get traded straight up Cleveland gets worse and LA gets better?
Who cares about all-star berths? Pau Gasol is much, much better than Ilgauskas, and showed it in the playoffs. Odom averaged nearly a double-double in the playoffs, and has averaged 15/9 over his career.
Ariza is much better than Delonte. Contrary to your statement, Ariza only averaged 2.5 points less than Delonte, and was a better shooter and defender.
And yes, if Kobe and Cleveland swapped places, Cleveland would be worse and L.A. would be better. There's not much doubt in my mind of that.
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If LeBron had Pau and the Lakers had Varejao or Ilguskas last year, the Cavs are winning the championship. At least they would of had a better chance against Orlando with Gasol.
Lamar Odom is a real nice player, too. He makes a lot of stupid mistakes and (At least from the times i've seen him) takes some bad shots but If I was running a team and he was willing to play off the bench most nights, I'd welcome him with open arms.
Fisher sucks, but so does Mo Williams. Mo got a bogus all-star nod thanks to the NBA's "king" but he has never impressed me, I'd much rather have Fisher and Gasol or Bynum than Mo and anyone else the Cavs have except LeBron.
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Kobe had the better supporting cast. Give LeBron Pau Gasol and the Cavs are the one's holding the Championship.
That said, LeBron's Cavs did underachieve and his play was part of that (his attempts to take over the series ostracized his teammates) ... although Mike Brown deserves more criticism than him.
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Kobe
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Kobe, hands down.
Not much of an argument in my book, either.
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Kobe, hands down.
Not much of an argument in my book, either.
Yeah, nothing to really compare. I don't think anyone from that Cavs ( Except LB) team even starts on the Lakers.
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I am really not sure the thread title is correct. It should probably be something like, 'how much better was Kobe's supporting cast last year compared to Lebron's?'
Anyone arguing for Lebron's team here is really just arguing for argument's sake. The Lakers would have made the playoffs last year without Kobe. The Cavs would have been fighting for last place in the East.
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Pau Gasol is a top 4 PF in this league now. So that instantly makes Kobe's supporting cast better.
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Kobe.
And Lebron is the better NBA player.
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Kobe
Everyone likes to forget that Gasol lead the Griz to a 50 win season.
Who on the Cavs (at their current playing level)outside of Lebron could do that in the NBA?
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Ok. So what will be Lebron's excuse this year? Poor Lebron with his French name and center tandem of Ilgauskas, Shaq, and Varejao, and that one time all star Mo Williams to pass it to him.
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Ok. So what will be Lebron's excuse this year? Poor Lebron with his French name and center tandem of Ilgauskas, Shaq, and Varejao, and that one time all star Mo Williams to pass it to him.
What do you mean Lebron's excuse?
If the Celtics or Lakers have the better team, that's not Lebron's fault LOL!!
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Its not really even close. And if Kobe and Lebron switched teams, the Lakers would be amazing, while Cleveland would be a middle of the pack playoff team.
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Kobe, without a doubt ... the Lakers were a much better supporting cast, (and it causes me physical pain to say that).
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So Lamar Odom, Pau gasol, and Andrew bynum is somehow a lot better than Ilgauskas, Mo Williams, Delonte, and varejo?
I don't know about that
You don't? I think you're probably the only one, then.
Plus, of course, Kobe had Fisher and Ariza, as well. I know which group I'd take if I was starting a team (at least after I washed the Lakers stink off of them.)
Hysterical.
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I think you guys are forgetting one thing as far as supporting cast:
Phil Jackson is an exponentially better playoff coach than Mike Brown. If you were to trade supporting casts (but not coaches) then the Cavs would have "probably" won the championship. Had they traded coaches too then it would have been no competition.. the Cavs 100%.
On a somewhat related note: Whenever the Celtics are playing the Lakers I hope that Kobe gets into a "me first" attitude and distrusts his teamates. It's when he tries to do everything that gives the Celtics the edge. Conversley I like it when Lebron defers and trusts his teammates... it's usually to the advantage of the opposing team.
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The cavs were counting on Wally Sczerbiak, Ben Wallace and Danile Gibson for meaningful contributions off the bench in the playoffs last year. I am pretty sure that shows you what Lebron was trying to work with.
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Big Z was a two time all star. Gasol is a top 5 PF.
imo i'd take odom and ariza over anyone on the Cav's time minus LBJ as well. odom is a very good 6th body and he creates match up probelms, can pass and can spread the floor. big ben and side show do neither. ariza is long, can guard multiple positions and spreads the floor, delonte (though i love him) is a tweener who plays hard but still struggles to guard larger guards.
if you were to have a draft between these supporting casts i think it would go something like this:
1) gasol
2) odom
3) ariza
4) side show
5&6) mo/delonte
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I think the main thing is that both supporting casts are tailored to the respective individual. Lebron has a group of spot-up shooters who float around the perimeter and wait for him to go one-on-one to create a jump shot opportunity. Kobe has a group of players that compliment his skills in the triangle offensive. Neither player would be as successful on the other team. Kobe at his age doesn't drive the lane enough to create the open looks Lebron does and Lebron would be lost with the sophistication of the triangle and his poor jump-shooting would be a problem.
Lebron probably passed Kobe as an individual force last year, but I still think Kobe's skill set, which includes mental attributes, is more appropriate for a championship team. For all his brilliance as a one-on-one player, Lebron's style of going one-on-five against the best teams is always going to have a hard time beating a squad that can match Cleveland for talent and runs a balanced team offensive, like the Lakers, Celtics, Magic, and possibly the Spurs.
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I think the main thing is that both supporting casts are tailored to the respective individual. Lebron has a group of spot-up shooters who float around the perimeter and wait for him to go one-on-one to create a jump shot opportunity. Kobe has a group of players that compliment his skills in the triangle offensive. Neither player would be as successful on the other team. Kobe at his age doesn't drive the lane enough to create the open looks Lebron does and Lebron would be lost with the sophistication of the triangle and his poor jump-shooting would be a problem.
Lebron probably passed Kobe as an individual force last year, but I still think Kobe's skill set, which includes mental attributes, is more appropriate for a championship team. For all his brilliance as a one-on-one player, Lebron's style of going one-on-five against the best teams is always going to have a hard time beating a squad that can match Cleveland for talent and runs a balanced team offensive, like the Lakers, Celtics, Magic, and possibly the Spurs.
Nice post.
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I don't put too much stock into "coaching".
As long as the coach gets his players to "play hard", more often than not, talent and execution by the players, determines the outcomes of the game.
So, if Mike Brown was coaching the Lakers, they win the title against the Magic.
If Jackson was coaching the Cavs, they don't win the title cause the Cavs' team was not championship material. The Cavs' were a "regular season" team, not a championship team.
Great players make coaches "look smart".
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I think the main thing is that both supporting casts are tailored to the respective individual. Lebron has a group of spot-up shooters who float around the perimeter and wait for him to go one-on-one to create a jump shot opportunity. Kobe has a group of players that compliment his skills in the triangle offensive. Neither player would be as successful on the other team. Kobe at his age doesn't drive the lane enough to create the open looks Lebron does and Lebron would be lost with the sophistication of the triangle and his poor jump-shooting would be a problem.
Lebron probably passed Kobe as an individual force last year, but I still think Kobe's skill set, which includes mental attributes, is more appropriate for a championship team. For all his brilliance as a one-on-one player, Lebron's style of going one-on-five against the best teams is always going to have a hard time beating a squad that can match Cleveland for talent and runs a balanced team offensive, like the Lakers, Celtics, Magic, and possibly the Spurs.
Good post. Couple comments, Lebron's jump shot was actually much, much better last year. Also, his 1-on-5 drives were mor a product of necessity than what Lebron likes to do. Watch this year how often he dishes to Shaq.
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I don't put too much stock into "coaching".
As long as the coach gets his players to "play hard", more often than not, talent and execution by the players, determines the outcomes of the game.
So, if Mike Brown was coaching the Lakers, they win the title against the Magic.
If Jackson was coaching the Cavs, they don't win the title cause the Cavs' team was not championship material. The Cavs' were a "regular season" team, not a championship team.
Great players make coaches "look smart".
I'm not entirely sold on that. Granted the chasm between the Cavs and Lakers (roster wise) was pretty big that it'd be impossible for 1 coach to overcome... but Mike Brown makes a lot of substitution and scheming mistakes. I don't consider him a good playoff coach and it shows.
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I don't put too much stock into "coaching".
As long as the coach gets his players to "play hard", more often than not, talent and execution by the players, determines the outcomes of the game.
So, if Mike Brown was coaching the Lakers, they win the title against the Magic.
If Jackson was coaching the Cavs, they don't win the title cause the Cavs' team was not championship material. The Cavs' were a "regular season" team, not a championship team.
Great players make coaches "look smart".
I'm not entirely sold on that. Granted the chasm between the Cavs and Lakers (roster wise) was pretty big that it'd be impossible for 1 coach to overcome... but Mike Brown makes a lot of substitution and scheming mistakes. I don't consider him a good playoff coach and it shows.
Brown isn't a great nuances or misc. coach, just like Doc, but Brown is pretty darn good defensive coach (which Doc is not).
Offensively, Cavs pretty much live and die by Lebron's playmaking and the rest of the Cavs' role players to hit open 3's or open J's.
The first 2 rounds in last year's playoffs, Cavs went 8-0 and had a +15 and +18 points per game margin. Their opponents shot .409 in the 1st round and .385 in the 2nd round.
Oh, and Lebron played like a monster throughout the whole playoffs, but his teammates were pretty darn good offensively in the 1st 2 rounds.
ECF happens and the Cavs' offense is Lebron doing it on his own and hurting his own team, because his mates failed to hit open shots and also failed to defend the Magic.
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Kobe's was much better, and I hate LeBron. During the regular season, the gap was probably closer. But LeBron's supporting cast quit on him in the playoffs. Allow me to re-iterate once again that I am NOT a LeBron fan by any stretch of the imagination. While he tends to hog the ball leading to disrupted team play, notably on offense, Mo Williams suddenly couldn't make shots and neither could Big Z, two of their more important and dependable players. Kobe never had any such problem with his teammates, if memory serves me correct. It wasn't that long ago.
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Kobe. Gasol alone is better than any 3 of Cleveland's bigs.
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Kobe. You take Kobe out of that lineup, they could still play at a different style (ariza at the 2, lamar, pau, bynum frontcourt).
Cleveland? That's a 20 win team. I mean, they have no all-stars or anyone with any real championship experience besides Ben Wallace. And we all know Mo didn't deserve that all-star spot.
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Kobe
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Kobe
I like it! Short, concise, efficient ... and no chance of awarding any praise to either one of those whiny, arrogant, selfish little superstars! ;)
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Kobe.
But Kobe is still better than LeBron, regardless.
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Kobe.
But Kobe is still better than LeBron, regardless.
Yes! He's back. :)
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Kobe.
But Kobe is still better than LeBron, regardless.
Yes! He's back. :)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cWnmCu3U09w (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cWnmCu3U09w)
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Uhhhhhhhhm Kobe? By far?
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Kobe.
But Kobe is still better than LeBron, regardless.
I would have to disagree, and I honestly can't stand Lebron..
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In my opinion LA had a much better supporting cast for Kobe then Lebron had. I also dont buy into the idea that Kobe is a better player then Lebron. Love him or hate him, Lebron is one of the best players this league has seen in quite a while. Is he a bit of a prima donna? Sure, but pay me that kind of money and give me the fame and who knows. Gasol alone is a much better player then anyone one the Cavs and he is 7 feet tall. If Bynum is healthy, he too is a better player then anyone else the Cavs have and to me Odom is as good as anyone they have.
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So what was the excuse this year? And the year before last year? And the one before that? And what will it be this year?
I have a hard time blaming Lebron for the Cavs failures. Who has his best teammate been? Mo Williams? And yet, in his career, he's carried a poor team to the Finals, and won 66 games with another team that wasn't anything special. There's no doubt in my mind that Lebron will win multiple championships in his career, once he's surrounded by legitimate teammates.
He's got a good cast around him this year. I think the Celts are better, but Lebron is a concern.
So Lamar Odom, Pau gasol, and Andrew bynum is somehow a lot better than Ilgauskas, Mo Williams, Delonte, and varejo?
I don't know about that
Gasol is one of the best bigs in the entire NBA. He has evolved into an all NBA-er. Bynum is on his way to being an all star, and Odom is just out of that conversation. Plus LA had Ariza - a perfect role player to share the wing w Kobe.
Ilgauskas, is well past his prime, although still effective on offense. Williams was not worthy of that all star position last year. Delonte < Ariza, based on size alone. Varejao is never going to sniff the all star level. Odom AND Bynum are better.
Kobe has an amazing cast. If Kobe missed last year's reg season, the Lakers would still win 50 games. Lebron is very worthy of his MVP status, based on the amazing carrying his does for his team. If Lebron went down for the reg season, the Cavs would win about 35-40 games.