CelticsStrong
Around the League => Around the NBA => Topic started by: smokeablount on April 23, 2008, 10:35:27 AM
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While watching the Spurs Suns game last night, I was thinking about who I would pick if I had to choose the ten best offensive players in the league. Not just scorers, but passers, and guys who attact a ton of attention that allows other players on the team to get easier looks.
I quickly hashed out my ten guys and a bench, and I'm curious what others think. I really wanted to put Pierce in the top 10, but I couldn't justify putting him ahead of Dirk, even though he's a better overall player, so he's stuck at 11.
Top 10:
10 Dirk
9 McGrady
8 Deron Williams
7 Arenas
6 Allen Iverson
5 Nash
4 Amare
3 Kobe
2 Chris Paul
1 Lebron
Neglected Starting Five:
Tony Parker
Pierce
Carmelo
Gasol
Duncan
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1) Lebron
2) Kobe
3) Paul
4) AI
5) Melo
6) Nash
7) Dirk
8) Duncan
9) Amare
10)Pierce
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1) Kobe
1a)Lebron
3) CP3
4) DWade
5) Nash
6) AI
7) Amare
8. Melo
9) Pierce
10)TMac
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1. Lebron
2. Kobe
3. CP3
4. Iverson
5. Amare
6. Nash
7. T-Mac
8. Big Al ;D
9. Pierce
10.D Wade
snubs: Carmelo, Dirk, Parker
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smokesablount, awesome thread, just what I needed to avoid work today.
Top 10 Pure Scorers
1) Lebron James
2) Allen Iverson
3) Kobe Bryant
4) Kevin Martin
5) Tracy McGrady
6) Carmelo Anthony
7) Dirk Nowitzki
8 ) Paul Pierce
9) Al Jefferson
10) Chris Paul
Top 10 All Around Offensive PLayers
1) Lebron James
2) Chris Paul
3) Kobe Bryant
4) Deron Williams
5) Steve Nash
6) Tracy McGrady
7) Tim Duncan
8) Brandon Roy
9) Dirk Nowitski
10) Jason Kidd
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ANd you guys are just sleeping on Kevin Martin.
23.7 points scored on 15.0 fg's taken. 40% from 3pt, and 86% from the line on 9.5 ft's per game!
Thats the 5th most ft's taken in the league, 1.4 free throw attempts off of Dwight Howard's league leading 10.9. This is not some kind of 3pt shooting specialist, he's as good an all around scorer in the league. Stop napping and make it happen.
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ANd you guys are just sleeping on Kevin Martin.
23.7 points scored on 15.0 fg's taken. 40% from 3pt, and 86% from the line on 9.5 ft's per game!
Thats the 5th most ft's taken in the league, 1.4 free throw attempts off of Dwight Howard's league leading 10.9. This is not some kind of 3pt shooting specialist, he's as good an all around scorer in the league. Stop napping and make it happen.
I like Kevin Martin. I really do. But how on earth could you possibly put him above Melo, Tmac, Pierce, CP3, or Dirk.
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ANd you guys are just sleeping on Kevin Martin.
23.7 points scored on 15.0 fg's taken. 40% from 3pt, and 86% from the line on 9.5 ft's per game!
Thats the 5th most ft's taken in the league, 1.4 free throw attempts off of Dwight Howard's league leading 10.9. This is not some kind of 3pt shooting specialist, he's as good an all around scorer in the league. Stop napping and make it happen.
I like Kevin Martin. I really do. But how on earth could you possibly put him above Melo, Tmac, Pierce, CP3, or Dirk.
The numbers speak man. Dirk had an off year, Pierce and T-Mac to me are debatable, but I think both are better all around players at this point in their careers than they are pure scorers. Both Pierce and TMac have lost a step, but gained both offensive awareness and old man hustle for boards. Kevin Martin is kind of one dimensional, but points wise he did more with less.
Also until Carmelo Anthony gets better shot selection or just flat out starts making more baskets in my book Kevin Martin is better. Carmelo Anthony is a volume shooter, and he gets to the line less. He's still 6th on my list but I just think Martin is better.
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These lists look about right.
I'd have a hard time leaving Ginobili off or a healthy Arenas.
BTW - good to see you back around Smokeablount
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Great Idea. This is going to be hard.
Top Ten
From a pure scoring standpoint
1.Kobe Bryant
2.(A distant two) Lebron James
3.Allen Iverson
4.Tracy McGrady
5.Dirk Nowitzki
6.Paul Pierce
7.Vince Carter
8.Carmelo Anthony
9.Amare Stoudamire
10.Al Jefferson
It did it from a scoring stand point because it's hard to define what a top ten offensive player should be or do.
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Kobe
Lebron
Paul
are the first tier
Melo
Pierce
Iverson
McGrady
D. Williams
Nash
Dirk
second tier
Amare
Boozer
Al J.
KMart
Carter
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smokesablount, awesome thread, just what I needed to avoid work today.
Top 10 Pure Scorers
1) Lebron James
2) Allen Iverson
3) Kobe Bryant
4) Kevin Martin
5) Tracy McGrady
6) Carmelo Anthony
7) Dirk Nowitzki
8 ) Paul Pierce
9) Al Jefferson
10) Chris Paul
Top 10 All Around Offensive PLayers
1) Lebron James
2) Chris Paul
3) Kobe Bryant
4) Deron Williams
5) Steve Nash
6) Tracy McGrady
7) Tim Duncan
8) Brandon Roy
9) Dirk Nowitski
10) Jason Kidd
just wondering, what does pierce lack on offense that drops him so far in teh overall list?
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ANd you guys are just sleeping on Kevin Martin.
23.7 points scored on 15.0 fg's taken. 40% from 3pt, and 86% from the line on 9.5 ft's per game!
Thats the 5th most ft's taken in the league, 1.4 free throw attempts off of Dwight Howard's league leading 10.9. This is not some kind of 3pt shooting specialist, he's as good an all around scorer in the league. Stop napping and make it happen.
Seems awful close to the number Pierce put up his best seasons as the main and by far the best option on offense with the Celtics.
Just because Pierce now shares with KG and Ray, I don't downgrade him below Martin.
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smokesablount, awesome thread, just what I needed to avoid work today.
Top 10 Pure Scorers
1) Lebron James
2) Allen Iverson
3) Kobe Bryant
4) Kevin Martin
5) Tracy McGrady
6) Carmelo Anthony
7) Dirk Nowitzki
8 ) Paul Pierce
9) Al Jefferson
10) Chris Paul
Top 10 All Around Offensive PLayers
1) Lebron James
2) Chris Paul
3) Kobe Bryant
4) Deron Williams
5) Steve Nash
6) Tracy McGrady
7) Tim Duncan
8) Brandon Roy
9) Dirk Nowitski
10) Jason Kidd
just wondering, what does pierce lack on offense that drops him so far in teh overall list?
good call, I kind of forgot about him. I'd put him behind McGrady and bump aging J-Kidd
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Pure scoring ability:
1. Kobe
2. LeBron
3. Iverson
4. Melo
5. Amare
6. Arenas
7. Kevin Martin - IP convinced me.
8. TMac
9. Redd
10. Vince
(Sorry Dirk, two years ago I'da had you as high as #4, but your drop off in scoring, confidence, and killer instinct has been in free fall since the finals slipped away to the Heat).
Top 10 purely on positive affect on an offense right now:
1. Chris Paul
2. Steve Nash
3. LeBron
4. Kobe
5. Deron Williams
6. Kevin Martin, because he's so darn efficient
7. Amare
8t. KG
8t. Duncan
10. Monta Ellis (whaaaat?)
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This is an interesting topic. I'd norrow it down to whom do I want having the ball - not necesarily taking the last shot - with 15sec left on the game.
My top choices would have hi IQ/decision maker, good foul shooter, inside/ouside player, good ball control/handling, excellent passer.
Based on those parameters my list becomes very short...and in no specific order:
LeBron, Ginobili, CPaul, SNash, DWilliams
P.S. Kobe doesn't make my list because he would be looking only to score and not to create or score
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There are so many aspects to "offense" I almost would have to separate it into categories then go from there.
Best floor generals (make teammates better)
1) Paul
2) Nash
3) Williams
4/5) Billups and Dre' Miller (both verging on being an engine)
Best offensive engines (generate points for self/others)
1) Kobe
2) LeBron
3) Iverson
4) Arenas (when healthy)
5) Pierce/TMac/Ginobili
Best finishers (deadly scorers, not really generating team offense)
1) Dirk (verging into becoming an engine)
2) Melo (verging into becoming an engine)
3) Amare
4) Kevin Martin
5) Michael Redd
Best big men (Forces defenses to conform to them and good passing that makes team offense more efficient)
1) Duncan
2) KG
3) Yao
4) Boozer
5) Gasol
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ANd you guys are just sleeping on Kevin Martin.
23.7 points scored on 15.0 fg's taken. 40% from 3pt, and 86% from the line on 9.5 ft's per game!
Thats the 5th most ft's taken in the league, 1.4 free throw attempts off of Dwight Howard's league leading 10.9. This is not some kind of 3pt shooting specialist, he's as good an all around scorer in the league. Stop napping and make it happen.
Seems awful close to the number Pierce put up his best seasons as the main and by far the best option on offense with the Celtics.
Just because Pierce now shares with KG and Ray, I don't downgrade him below Martin.
Ok wd. I've looked at the stats and I have this to say:
Paul Pierce's usage rate has dropped, his assist rate and assists per 40 have risen, along with his true shooting % and fg%. HIs rebounding rate is down, and his turnover ratio is exactly where it was last season.
Martin scores at a better clip per 40, but he also records less assists, rebounds at a lower rate, and handles the ball more. He has a higher ts% and records fewer turnovers.
Basically what Im saying is that Paul Pierce is having a much better year than I first thought, and I think you can blame part of his scoring drop on better teammates and you can blame his higher efficiency one better looks because of those teammates.
Martin is still just as efficient, maybe more so, and he doesn't have the benefit of good teammates. I maintain he's a better scorer. However, I would bump Pierce to number 7 on my second list, and bump everyone back a spot.
1) Lebron James
2) Chris Paul
3) Kobe Bryant
4) Deron Williams
5) Steve Nash
6) Tracy McGrady
7) Paul Pierce
8 ) Tim Duncan
9) Brandon Roy
10) Dirk
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This is how rare and special Kevin Martin is:
This season, Kevin Martin got 9.5 FTAs per game (#5 in the league). He also took 4.4 3PAs per game, and scored on 40.2% of those. That's good diversity. (<-- Understatement.)
How many players have ever averaged at least 9 FTAs per game and shot at least 40% from three (taking at least 1 three per game)? One. Kevin Martin, this season.
How many players have ever averaged at least 8 FTAs per game and shot at least 40% from three (taking at least 1 three per game)? Two. Kevin Martin and Michael Jordan.
How many players have ever averaged at least 7 FTAs per game and shot at least 40% from three (taking at least 1 three per game)? Six. Kevin Martin, Michael Jordan, Reggie Miller, Kevin Johnson, Paul Pierce and Dirk Nowitzki.
http://www.sactownroyalty.com/2008/4/17/411932/kevin-martin-s-unprecedent
There's some praise for Paul Pierce in the piece too.
Kevin Martin is one of the most efficient scorers in the league. They got a great deal on his contract extension. Only player in NBA history to get 9 FT attempts a game while hitting 40% from three on at least one take per game. Special.
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Pure scoring ability:
1. Kobe
2. LeBron
3. Iverson
4. Melo
5. Amare
6. Arenas
7. Kevin Martin - IP convinced me.
8. TMac
9. Redd
10. Vince
(Sorry Dirk, two years ago I'da had you as high as #4, but your drop off in scoring, confidence, and killer instinct has been in free fall since the finals slipped away to the Heat).
Top 10 purely on positive affect on an offense right now:
1. Chris Paul
2. Steve Nash
3. LeBron
4. Kobe
5. Deron Williams
6. Kevin Martin, because he's so darn efficient
7. Amare
8t. KG
8t. Duncan
10. Monta Ellis (whaaaat?)
Wheres Dwayne Wade at? Good call on Monta Ellis. I wanted to put him on my list but I was too scared. :P
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Pure scoring ability:
1. Kobe
2. LeBron
3. Iverson
4. Melo
5. Amare
6. Arenas
7. Kevin Martin - IP convinced me.
8. TMac
9. Redd
10. Vince
(Sorry Dirk, two years ago I'da had you as high as #4, but your drop off in scoring, confidence, and killer instinct has been in free fall since the finals slipped away to the Heat).
Top 10 purely on positive affect on an offense right now:
1. Chris Paul
2. Steve Nash
3. LeBron
4. Kobe
5. Deron Williams
6. Kevin Martin, because he's so darn efficient
7. Amare
8t. KG
8t. Duncan
10. Monta Ellis (whaaaat?)
Wheres Dwayne Wade at? Good call on Monta Ellis. I wanted to put him on my list but I was too scared. :P
He'll be there if he can put together a couple of seasons without big injuries. His talent probably puts him at #5 or 6 on both lists.
I had to put Ellis there. That kid is such a dynamic finisher around the basket, has developed a lethal midrange game, and is very efficient with his playmaking. When he hits go, it seems he either finishes at the hoop, or dumps off an amazing pass that leads to an easy score.
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Pure scoring ability:
1. Kobe
2. LeBron
3. Iverson
4. Melo
5. Amare
6. Arenas
7. Kevin Martin - IP convinced me.
8. TMac
9. Redd
10. Vince
(Sorry Dirk, two years ago I'da had you as high as #4, but your drop off in scoring, confidence, and killer instinct has been in free fall since the finals slipped away to the Heat).
Top 10 purely on positive affect on an offense right now:
1. Chris Paul
2. Steve Nash
3. LeBron
4. Kobe
5. Deron Williams
6. Kevin Martin, because he's so darn efficient
7. Amare
8t. KG
8t. Duncan
10. Monta Ellis (whaaaat?)
Wheres Dwayne Wade at? Good call on Monta Ellis. I wanted to put him on my list but I was too scared. :P
d-wade should be on thier over vince, but honestly i don't think they crack top 10, either of them. There exciting players, there not great scorers.
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Dywane Wade and Elton Brand both belonged on both of these lists a year ago. But as Janet Jackson once said:
What have you done for me lately?
Ooh ooh ooh yeah