CelticsStrong
Around the League => Around the NBA => Topic started by: Ersatz on April 20, 2008, 01:46:12 PM
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Is Amare Stoudemire the league's most overrated player? Yesterday, I think, proved he is. While I have to admit that his offensive play around the basket is unrivaled, he doesn't have an actual move that can get him baskets in any situation. Rather, his explosiveness and perfect passes from Nash account for well over half of his baskets. As Nash gets older or retires, Stoudemire no longer gets so many easy baskets, and his complete lack of post moves means he's going to have to work a lot harder on the offensive end.
But it's in Stoudemire's defensive and inability to control himself that we see not just a weakness but a player that is at key times fatal to his team. Yesterday was a great example. While I'll admit that some of the fouls on Shaq were pretty bad calls, the ones on Stoudemire were all well deserved and at least four of them were due to his boneheadness. To be a great player, you've got to know you can't go over the back or charge to the basket when a pull-up short jumper will do. You have to control yourself, and in big-game situations, Stoudemire seems completely incapable of that.
And his defense. Just atrocious. Not only does he not even pretend to guard his man, he is never in the right place at the right time for help defense. Yes, he's athletic enough to block shots, but Finley's three-pointer at the end of regulation yesterday epitomizes his horrible play: Seemingly unaware that the Spurs needed three points and that it was Finley, a lethal shooter, shooting the ball, he misplays the screen and drops back, leaving Finley wide open to nail it. Awful play from an often-awful player.
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Stoudemire is amazing. No one claims he is perfect. Howard is considered the dominant big man of the future, not Amare. But Amare is a beast on offense.
Everyone charges at times, especially on fast breaks. Pierce and Ray Allen have done it, and they are smaller players who most would expect to have a mobility advantage over Amare.
Amare is so much better now that he doesn't have to play center. He has a ton of moves. He is not a post guy who has a single favorite move. He is a guy who runs around and who is amazingly agile.
There is a simple reason why Amare got less easy baskets yesterday -- they were playing the Spurs. Duncan could get easy baskets either at the end of the game, and Duncan has amazing go-to moves.
Let's not overreact.
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Amare is my pick to lead the league in scoring in 08-09.
As for the D, well, I've seen worse. He was 7th in the league in blocks last year. He's not a very good defender, but he has time to improve. People are way more into dogging young players now than I've ever seen.
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Stoudemire is amazing. No one claims he is perfect. Howard is considered the dominant big man of the future, not Amare. But Amare is a beast on offense.
Everyone charges at times, especially on fast breaks. Pierce and Ray Allen have done it, and they are smaller players who most would expect to have a mobility advantage over Amare.
Amare is so much better now that he doesn't have to play center. He has a ton of moves. He is not a post guy who has a single favorite move. He is a guy who runs around and who is amazingly agile.
There is a simple reason why Amare got less easy baskets yesterday -- they were playing the Spurs. Duncan could get easy baskets either at the end of the game, and Duncan has amazing go-to moves.
Let's not overreact.
I disagree. Amare has often times gone off on the Spurs. If I recall correctly, he posted higher PPG last year in the playoffs against Duncan.
While I will concede that he is a tad overrated (especially with regard to his overall game and lack of defense), he just became the first player to regain their explosiveness coming back from microfracture surgery. If anything, that's a testament to his work ethic. Besides, he's still in his early 20s. He may still develop a true back to the basket game.
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Yes, he is overrated. He plays little to no defense. And he has limited low post moves for a big man of his stature.
Now if he developed both of these, his wouldn't be overrated.
But with Nash, he hasn't had the need to develop a low post game. He just lives off feeds and pick an rolls.
And defense, Phoenix teams he has been on have never stressed that to much.
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I think Amare is a tough competitor,who had to play out of position for most of the time,but did a good job,holding it down.I don't see many flaws in his game.He was as someone mentioned a very good def.player last season,blocking more shots.I didn't see him in as many games this yr.,but with the transitioning of the Suns midway through the season,i feel he has alone with a few others held it together pretty darn good.Amare is a superstar,in my book.He is probably arguablly the second best to Duncan in the West( Bigs).
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Yes, he is overrated. He plays little to no defense. And he has limited low post moves for a big man of his stature.
Now if he developed both of these, his wouldn't be overrated.
But with Nash, he hasn't had the need to develop a low post game. He just lives off feeds and pick an rolls.
And defense, Phoenix teams he has been on have never stressed that to much.
A year ago, this would have been a much fairer assessment than it is now. At this point, I'm not buying all of it.
Yes, Stoudemire is still a poor defender at best -- it's the biggest weakness in his game and the major obstacle in his attaining all-around dominance. But he has without doubt become more active defensively since O'Neal came to town and he moved over to the power forward position. But I also think that most NBA folks have become aware of this over the last season and a half or so, and I'm not sure his poor defense contributes to his being overrated at this point, as it seems that this is fairly taken into account in appraisals of his game.
That said, my bigger problem with your evaluation is the commentary about his offensive game. A year ago, STAT's offensive production was far more based on the raw athleticism, lobs and screen-rolls that you mention. The big difference in Stoudemire this year -- as I wrote about a couple of months ago (http://www.celticsblog.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=2472&Itemid=260 (http://www.celticsblog.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=2472&Itemid=260)) -- has been the development of his all-around offensive game. He has refined his mid-range jump shooting game and now forces opponents to come out and deal with him from 15 to 18 feet. This is only allowing him more room to use his quickness to against other bigs to create his own shot by getting to the rim as well. Stoudemire slashes with far more ferocity and finesse than most bigs in the league, and he has begun to master the post as well. The man didn't go from 20.4 to 25.2 points per game simply by playing an extra minute and getting more lobs than in the past. His footwork and post moves have greatly improved, and he has become far more willing to use his athleticism productively down there, to get the ball down low and simply rise up over opponents, not only for dunks but for mini-hooks and baby jumpers as well.
The improvement of this guy's all-around offensive game has been one of the best stories of the 2007-08 season. I think you're selling him very short on that end.
-sw
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Yes, he is overrated. He plays little to no defense. And he has limited low post moves for a big man of his stature.
Now if he developed both of these, his wouldn't be overrated.
But with Nash, he hasn't had the need to develop a low post game. He just lives off feeds and pick an rolls.
And defense, Phoenix teams he has been on have never stressed that to much.
A year ago, this would have been a much fairer assessment than it is now. At this point, I'm not buying all of it.
Yes, Stoudemire is still a poor defender at best -- it's the biggest weakness in his game and the major obstacle in his attaining all-around dominance. But he has without doubt become more active defensively since O'Neal came to town and he moved over to the power forward position. But I also think that most NBA folks have become aware of this over the last season and a half or so, and I'm not sure his poor defense contributes to his being overrated at this point, as it seems that this is fairly taken into account in appraisals of his game.
That said, my bigger problem with your evaluation is the commentary about his offensive game. A year ago, STAT's offensive production was far more based on the raw athleticism, lobs and screen-rolls that you mention. The big difference in Stoudemire this year -- as I wrote about a couple of months ago (http://www.celticsblog.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=2472&Itemid=260 (http://www.celticsblog.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=2472&Itemid=260)) -- has been the development of his all-around offensive game. He has refined his mid-range jump shooting game and now forces opponents to come out and deal with him from 15 to 18 feet. This is only allowing him more room to use his quickness to against other bigs to create his own shot by getting to the rim as well. Stoudemire slashes with far more ferocity and finesse than most bigs in the league, and he has begun to master the post as well. The man didn't go from 20.4 to 25.2 points per game simply by playing an extra minute and getting more lobs than in the past. His footwork and post moves have greatly improved, and he has become far more willing to use his athleticism productively down there, to get the ball down low and simply rise up over opponents, not only for dunks but for mini-hooks and baby jumpers as well.
The improvement of this guy's all-around offensive game has been one of the best stories of the 2007-08 season. I think you're selling him very short on that end.
-sw
Well said, SW ... totally agree. You just saved me a ton of typing, (my digits thank you!) TP.
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Yes, he is overrated. He plays little to no defense. And he has limited low post moves for a big man of his stature.
Now if he developed both of these, his wouldn't be overrated.
But with Nash, he hasn't had the need to develop a low post game. He just lives off feeds and pick an rolls.
And defense, Phoenix teams he has been on have never stressed that to much.
A year ago, this would have been a much fairer assessment than it is now. At this point, I'm not buying all of it.
Yes, Stoudemire is still a poor defender at best -- it's the biggest weakness in his game and the major obstacle in his attaining all-around dominance. But he has without doubt become more active defensively since O'Neal came to town and he moved over to the power forward position. But I also think that most NBA folks have become aware of this over the last season and a half or so, and I'm not sure his poor defense contributes to his being overrated at this point, as it seems that this is fairly taken into account in appraisals of his game.
That said, my bigger problem with your evaluation is the commentary about his offensive game. A year ago, STAT's offensive production was far more based on the raw athleticism, lobs and screen-rolls that you mention. The big difference in Stoudemire this year -- as I wrote about a couple of months ago (http://www.celticsblog.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=2472&Itemid=260 (http://www.celticsblog.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=2472&Itemid=260)) -- has been the development of his all-around offensive game. He has refined his mid-range jump shooting game and now forces opponents to come out and deal with him from 15 to 18 feet. This is only allowing him more room to use his quickness to against other bigs to create his own shot by getting to the rim as well. Stoudemire slashes with far more ferocity and finesse than most bigs in the league, and he has begun to master the post as well. The man didn't go from 20.4 to 25.2 points per game simply by playing an extra minute and getting more lobs than in the past. His footwork and post moves have greatly improved, and he has become far more willing to use his athleticism productively down there, to get the ball down low and simply rise up over opponents, not only for dunks but for mini-hooks and baby jumpers as well.
The improvement of this guy's all-around offensive game has been one of the best stories of the 2007-08 season. I think you're selling him very short on that end.
-sw
Well said, SW ... totally agree. You just saved me a ton of typing, (my digits thank you!) TP.
Glad to hear you're with me, Bahku. Guess it should be my new slogan -- "SW: Preventing Carpal Tunnel For CB Members Since 2008" ;)
-sw
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There are far, far more overrated players than Amare Stoudemire. While I have my doubts that he can be your best player on a title bound team, he is the most lethal scoring big man in the game. He's found a way to score even without jaw dropping athleticism. Now he's just a very good athlete. His outside J is money in the bank... his savvy down on the blocks is better than just about everyone's in today's game.
Most overrated player, I'd have to say, is Dwyane Wade. But I think people have begun to see that.
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Stoudemire is certainly not overrated... sure he has flaws on his game, but who doesn't? Fact is that his strengths are taken lightly by many around, and playing behind Steve Nash keeps him underappreciated; especially when you consider that he has been playing out of position for pretty much his whole career.
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Steve Nash is overrated. He doesn't play a lick of D at all, and on offense, he shoots a good percentage, but has never cracked 20 ppg. Most of his assists are just because he's able to run around like crazy and throw up a pass anywhere he wants and Amare will grab it from anywhere and throw it down.
(And yes, this is facetious, but let's be honest, it depends on the angle with which you approach the question. basketball players are all dependent upon each other. Players need to receive the ball in order to score, and for a player to rack up assists, he needs to be surrounded by people who can score. Amare is maybe the best finisher in the NBA and Nash is one of the better passers. They are lucky to be on the same team. THEY BOTH MAKE EACH OTHER BETTER. Neither one plays defense, and both are elite players at their position. what bothers me is that it's the little white guy who gets credit for Amare's scoring, not Amare's ridiculously elite finishing ability that gets credited for making Nash's assist totals so high. Why is that?)
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Come on, everybody knows that the most overrated player in the league is Kobe Bryant. (Well, everybody except for a majority of the national press and all those fans in their yellow and purple #24 jerseys.)
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Come on, everybody knows that the most overrated player in the league is Kobe Bryant. (Well, everybody except for a majority of the national press and all those fans in their yellow and purple #24 jerseys.)
come on now. i hate kobe but overrated is the last thing that comes to mind. Arrogant? yes. self centered? yes. possible team killing ball hog skills? mabey. but overrated? not anywhere near my list.
Guys an incredible player, just not, imo, a incredible person.
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In all seriousness, I do believe Nash is overrated. Look at his stats his two MVP seasons:
MIN FG% 3P% FT% TO STL RB AST PTS PER
34 .502 .431 .887 3.3 1 3.4 11.5 15.5 22.04
36 .512 .439 .921 3.5 .8 4.2 10.5 18.8 23.29
Those are not all-time numbers. And before you give me "point guard intangibles," here's the last stat line of the last MVP point guard, Magic Johnson:
MIN FG% 3P% FT% TO STL RB AST PTS
37 .480 .384 .890 3.7 1.7 6.6 11.5 22.3
Johnson had a significantly better overall season, when factoring steals and the large increases in scoring and rebounding.
So whom did Nash beat each year?
05-06
MIN FG% 3P% FT% TO STL RB AST PTS PER
Lebron:
42.5 .480 .335 .738 3.3 1.6 7.0 6.6 31.4 28.17
Dirk (whose team was BETTER post-Nash):
38.1 .480 .406 .901 1.9 0.7 9.0 2.8 26.6 28.20
Kobe (take a look at the supporting casts)
41.0 .450 .347 .850 3.1 1.8 5.3 4.5 35.4 28.11
04-05
MIN FG% 3P% FT% TO STL RB AST PTS PER
Shaq
34.1 .601 .461 2.8 0.5 10.4 2.7 22.9 27.03
Dirk
38.7 .459 .399 .869 2.3 1.2 9.7 3.1 26.1 26.14
Duncan
33.4 .496 .333 .670 1.9 0.7 11.1 2.7 20.3 27.12
All of those stat lines are just better than either of Nash's years. Just look at the PERs! Not to mention the fact that Shaq and Duncan each had more than 2 blocks per game in 04-05, and Duncan, in addition to having better overall numbers, actually makes his defense significantly better than does Nash.
Compare Chris Paul's numbers this year to Nash's from either MVP year:
MIN FG% 3P% FT% TO STL RB AST PTS PER
37.6 .488 .369 .851 2.51 2.71 4.0 11.6 21.1 28.39
I mean, Chris Paul's season absolutely destrys Nash's MVP years. Check out that PER, and look at the scoring and steals, and almost a full turnover less than Nash. If Nash was truly a deserving MVP candidate, Paul has to win this year. Chris's #1 competition this year is generally considered Kobe, with Lebron another viable option (for purposes of this and to avoid starting a flame war i'm pretending KG is not an option).
MIN FG% 3P% FT% TO STL RB AST PTS PER
Kobe
38.9 .459 .361 .840 3.13 1.84 6.3 5.4 28.3 24.31
Lebron
40.4 .484 .315 .712 3.40 1.84 7.9 7.2 30.0 29.23
In reality, the race should come down to Lebron and Paul, but writers with votes like to think that they know more about the sport than other people do, so they rely on things like "intangibles" talk their way into justifying their voting for their favorite candidate.
But really, Kobe's season this year is worse than his when he lost to Nash, AND Paul's year this year his better than either of Nash's MVP years. Therefore, at least one of the following statements has to be true: 1) Nash never deserved to win an MVP award, or 2) Chris Paul has to win this year's MVP in a landslide.
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Steve Nash is overrated. He doesn't play a lick of D at all, and on offense, he shoots a good percentage, but has never cracked 20 ppg. Most of his assists are just because he's able to run around like crazy and throw up a pass anywhere he wants and Amare will grab it from anywhere and throw it down.
(And yes, this is facetious, but let's be honest, it depends on the angle with which you approach the question. basketball players are all dependent upon each other. Players need to receive the ball in order to score, and for a player to rack up assists, he needs to be surrounded by people who can score. Amare is maybe the best finisher in the NBA and Nash is one of the better passers. They are lucky to be on the same team. THEY BOTH MAKE EACH OTHER BETTER. Neither one plays defense, and both are elite players at their position. what bothers me is that it's the little white guy who gets credit for Amare's scoring, not Amare's ridiculously elite finishing ability that gets credited for making Nash's assist totals so high. Why is that?)
Are you sure this is facetious? sounds dead on to me.
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Steve Nash is overrated. He doesn't play a lick of D at all, and on offense, he shoots a good percentage, but has never cracked 20 ppg. Most of his assists are just because he's able to run around like crazy and throw up a pass anywhere he wants and Amare will grab it from anywhere and throw it down.
(And yes, this is facetious, but let's be honest, it depends on the angle with which you approach the question. basketball players are all dependent upon each other. Players need to receive the ball in order to score, and for a player to rack up assists, he needs to be surrounded by people who can score. Amare is maybe the best finisher in the NBA and Nash is one of the better passers. They are lucky to be on the same team. THEY BOTH MAKE EACH OTHER BETTER. Neither one plays defense, and both are elite players at their position. what bothers me is that it's the little white guy who gets credit for Amare's scoring, not Amare's ridiculously elite finishing ability that gets credited for making Nash's assist totals so high. Why is that?)
Are you sure this is facetious? sounds dead on to me.
You're right, it was only slightly facetious. I don't want to hate on Nash, but it seemed like the criticisms on Amare were:
1. He's not good at defense
2. He doesn't really do anything because Nash does all the work for him and he just finishes the basket.
Point number 1 is legitimate, but i wanted to point out that we have a current 2 time MVP that plays worse defense than Amare.
but point 2 just upsets me whenever i see or here it. I think that you could just as easily and correctly argue that Nash has a really easy job because he's had great shooting and finishing teammates his whole career. All he has to do is pass them the ball and he gets assists for it because Dirk, Joe Johnson, Amare, Marion, et al are great at scoring the ball. Not only that, but for some reason he also gets almost all the credit for the success of the team even though the Suns and Mavs have had multiple all-stars each year that Nash has had a good year.
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Just for fun, here's my 07-08 all overrated team. I'm trying to stick with overrated and not just overpaid. And remember, "overrated" is a relative term. You don't have to be a bad player to be overrated, you just have to be overrated by what I see on TNT, ESPN, ESPN.com and Talk Radio.
PG Jason Kidd
SG Randy Foye
SF Tayshon Prince
PF Ben Wallace (still there because of the national NBA media. Most rational people realize he stinks, but some
people still talk about the cleveland trade this year as them acquiring a "dominant" defender and rebounder, and
still a "very good" player.
C Jamaal Magloire
Bench: Yao, Carlos Arroyo, Bruce Bowen, Jared Jeffries, Duhon, Verejao, Haslem (one of those "he's so valuable he's so underrated" guys that we've heard that said so many times that almost everyone now thinks he's better than he actually is).
Special edition:
Marcus Banks
Delonte West
Gerald Green
Antione Walker
Glen Davis
Now here's a question: Who's on your underrated team?
It's much harder trying to find underrated players!
PG: Jason Terry (I think he's overlooked on that team)
SG: Jason Richardson
SF: Josh Childress
PF: Leon Powe
C: Brendan Haywood
Bench: Kyle Lowry, Ronnie Brewer, Rudy Gay, Travis Outlaw, Brandon Wright, Chris Wilcox, Biedrins,
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Just for fun, here's my 07-08 all overrated team. I'm trying to stick with overrated and not just overpaid. And remember, "overrated" is a relative term. You don't have to be a bad player to be overrated, you just have to be overrated by what I see on TNT, ESPN, ESPN.com and Talk Radio.
PG Jason Kidd
SG Randy Foye
SF Tayshon Prince
PF Ben Wallace (still there because of the national NBA media. Most rational people realize he stinks, but some
people still talk about the cleveland trade this year as them acquiring a "dominant" defender and rebounder, and
still a "very good" player.
C Jamaal Magloire
Bench: Yao, Carlos Arroyo, Bruce Bowen, Jared Jeffries, Duhon, Verejao, Haslem (one of those "he's so valuable he's so underrated" guys that we've heard that said so many times that almost everyone now thinks he's better than he actually is).
Special edition:
Marcus Banks
Delonte West
Gerald Green
Antione Walker
Glen Davis
Now here's a question: Who's on your underrated team?
It's much harder trying to find underrated players!
PG: Jason Terry (I think he's overlooked on that team)
SG: Jason Richardson
SF: Josh Childress
PF: Leon Powe
C: Brendan Haywood
Bench: Kyle Lowry, Ronnie Brewer, Rudy Gay, Travis Outlaw, Brandon Wright, Chris Wilcox, Biedrins,
Interesting take, VT. Although I would ask, who is overrating Jared Jeffries? So far as I've been able to tell, nobody in New York can stand this guy. He isn't as good defensively as the Knicks thought he would be when they signed him, and he is an absolute atrocity on offense. Not sure anyone's claiming this guy is anything special.
-sw
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his game has fallen off and i feel sorry for him...but even back a few his game wasnt equal with the hype..
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Antoine Walker is not overrated. He is basically considered a joke in the league now, and he doesn't even really deserve it. People forget how good he was with us.
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Grant Hill doesn't get a ton of recognition but has played well. Al Jefferson. Gomes. Corey Brewer.
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Antoine Walker is not overrated. He is basically considered a joke in the league now, and he doesn't even really deserve it. People forget how good he was with us.
i aint forgot..
(http://www.nba.com/media/celtics/pierce_370_030501.jpg)
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In all seriousness, I do believe Nash is overrated. Look at his stats his two MVP seasons:
MIN FG% 3P% FT% TO STL RB AST PTS PER
34 .502 .431 .887 3.3 1 3.4 11.5 15.5 22.04
36 .512 .439 .921 3.5 .8 4.2 10.5 18.8 23.29
Those are not all-time numbers. And before you give me "point guard intangibles," here's the last stat line of the last MVP point guard, Magic Johnson:
MIN FG% 3P% FT% TO STL RB AST PTS
37 .480 .384 .890 3.7 1.7 6.6 11.5 22.3
Johnson had a significantly better overall season, when factoring steals and the large increases in scoring and rebounding.
So whom did Nash beat each year?
05-06
MIN FG% 3P% FT% TO STL RB AST PTS PER
Lebron:
42.5 .480 .335 .738 3.3 1.6 7.0 6.6 31.4 28.17
Dirk (whose team was BETTER post-Nash):
38.1 .480 .406 .901 1.9 0.7 9.0 2.8 26.6 28.20
Kobe (take a look at the supporting casts)
41.0 .450 .347 .850 3.1 1.8 5.3 4.5 35.4 28.11
04-05
MIN FG% 3P% FT% TO STL RB AST PTS PER
Shaq
34.1 .601 .461 2.8 0.5 10.4 2.7 22.9 27.03
Dirk
38.7 .459 .399 .869 2.3 1.2 9.7 3.1 26.1 26.14
Duncan
33.4 .496 .333 .670 1.9 0.7 11.1 2.7 20.3 27.12
All of those stat lines are just better than either of Nash's years. Just look at the PERs! Not to mention the fact that Shaq and Duncan each had more than 2 blocks per game in 04-05, and Duncan, in addition to having better overall numbers, actually makes his defense significantly better than does Nash.
Compare Chris Paul's numbers this year to Nash's from either MVP year:
MIN FG% 3P% FT% TO STL RB AST PTS PER
37.6 .488 .369 .851 2.51 2.71 4.0 11.6 21.1 28.39
I mean, Chris Paul's season absolutely destrys Nash's MVP years. Check out that PER, and look at the scoring and steals, and almost a full turnover less than Nash. If Nash was truly a deserving MVP candidate, Paul has to win this year. Chris's #1 competition this year is generally considered Kobe, with Lebron another viable option (for purposes of this and to avoid starting a flame war i'm pretending KG is not an option).
MIN FG% 3P% FT% TO STL RB AST PTS PER
Kobe
38.9 .459 .361 .840 3.13 1.84 6.3 5.4 28.3 24.31
Lebron
40.4 .484 .315 .712 3.40 1.84 7.9 7.2 30.0 29.23
In reality, the race should come down to Lebron and Paul, but writers with votes like to think that they know more about the sport than other people do, so they rely on things like "intangibles" talk their way into justifying their voting for their favorite candidate.
But really, Kobe's season this year is worse than his when he lost to Nash, AND Paul's year this year his better than either of Nash's MVP years. Therefore, at least one of the following statements has to be true: 1) Nash never deserved to win an MVP award, or 2) Chris Paul has to win this year's MVP in a landslide.
You are a slave to stats.
The analysis above doesn't mean much without including the performance of the team they were on in the regular season.
Your idea that Kobe's stats being better when he lost to Nash meaning that logically he must lose the MVP race to win this year is illogical. Kobe lead his team to the best record in the west this season, not in the season you mention above. That is an important part of the MVP race.
The stuff I'm saying should be obvious.
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Steve Nash is overrated. He doesn't play a lick of D at all, and on offense, he shoots a good percentage, but has never cracked 20 ppg. Most of his assists are just because he's able to run around like crazy and throw up a pass anywhere he wants and Amare will grab it from anywhere and throw it down.
(And yes, this is facetious, but let's be honest, it depends on the angle with which you approach the question. basketball players are all dependent upon each other. Players need to receive the ball in order to score, and for a player to rack up assists, he needs to be surrounded by people who can score. Amare is maybe the best finisher in the NBA and Nash is one of the better passers. They are lucky to be on the same team. THEY BOTH MAKE EACH OTHER BETTER. Neither one plays defense, and both are elite players at their position. what bothers me is that it's the little white guy who gets credit for Amare's scoring, not Amare's ridiculously elite finishing ability that gets credited for making Nash's assist totals so high. Why is that?)
Are you sure this is facetious? sounds dead on to me.
You're right, it was only slightly facetious. I don't want to hate on Nash, but it seemed like the criticisms on Amare were:
1. He's not good at defense
2. He doesn't really do anything because Nash does all the work for him and he just finishes the basket.
Point number 1 is legitimate, but i wanted to point out that we have a current 2 time MVP that plays worse defense than Amare.
but point 2 just upsets me whenever i see or here it. I think that you could just as easily and correctly argue that Nash has a really easy job because he's had great shooting and finishing teammates his whole career. All he has to do is pass them the ball and he gets assists for it because Dirk, Joe Johnson, Amare, Marion, et al are great at scoring the ball. Not only that, but for some reason he also gets almost all the credit for the success of the team even though the Suns and Mavs have had multiple all-stars each year that Nash has had a good year.
I think a lot of people voted for Nash because they WATCHED HIM play and were impressed by what they saw. They saw the difference in Phx's execution with him on the floor and with him off the floor. They voted for him for many of the same reasons that some will vote for KG this season.
The problem for KG and why he won't get the same consideration that Nash got is that Kobe and CP3 also led their teams to strong records in the West, and they did it while accumulating more impressive stats and while handling the ball in the key moments at the ends of games. Beyond that, Kobe is an all time great and this is the first season that he is truly worthy of the MVP.
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In all seriousness, I do believe Nash is overrated. Look at his stats his two MVP seasons:
MIN FG% 3P% FT% TO STL RB AST PTS PER
34 .502 .431 .887 3.3 1 3.4 11.5 15.5 22.04
36 .512 .439 .921 3.5 .8 4.2 10.5 18.8 23.29
Those are not all-time numbers. And before you give me "point guard intangibles," here's the last stat line of the last MVP point guard, Magic Johnson:
MIN FG% 3P% FT% TO STL RB AST PTS
37 .480 .384 .890 3.7 1.7 6.6 11.5 22.3
Johnson had a significantly better overall season, when factoring steals and the large increases in scoring and rebounding.
So whom did Nash beat each year?
05-06
MIN FG% 3P% FT% TO STL RB AST PTS PER
Lebron:
42.5 .480 .335 .738 3.3 1.6 7.0 6.6 31.4 28.17
Dirk (whose team was BETTER post-Nash):
38.1 .480 .406 .901 1.9 0.7 9.0 2.8 26.6 28.20
Kobe (take a look at the supporting casts)
41.0 .450 .347 .850 3.1 1.8 5.3 4.5 35.4 28.11
04-05
MIN FG% 3P% FT% TO STL RB AST PTS PER
Shaq
34.1 .601 .461 2.8 0.5 10.4 2.7 22.9 27.03
Dirk
38.7 .459 .399 .869 2.3 1.2 9.7 3.1 26.1 26.14
Duncan
33.4 .496 .333 .670 1.9 0.7 11.1 2.7 20.3 27.12
All of those stat lines are just better than either of Nash's years. Just look at the PERs! Not to mention the fact that Shaq and Duncan each had more than 2 blocks per game in 04-05, and Duncan, in addition to having better overall numbers, actually makes his defense significantly better than does Nash.
Compare Chris Paul's numbers this year to Nash's from either MVP year:
MIN FG% 3P% FT% TO STL RB AST PTS PER
37.6 .488 .369 .851 2.51 2.71 4.0 11.6 21.1 28.39
I mean, Chris Paul's season absolutely destrys Nash's MVP years. Check out that PER, and look at the scoring and steals, and almost a full turnover less than Nash. If Nash was truly a deserving MVP candidate, Paul has to win this year. Chris's #1 competition this year is generally considered Kobe, with Lebron another viable option (for purposes of this and to avoid starting a flame war i'm pretending KG is not an option).
MIN FG% 3P% FT% TO STL RB AST PTS PER
Kobe
38.9 .459 .361 .840 3.13 1.84 6.3 5.4 28.3 24.31
Lebron
40.4 .484 .315 .712 3.40 1.84 7.9 7.2 30.0 29.23
In reality, the race should come down to Lebron and Paul, but writers with votes like to think that they know more about the sport than other people do, so they rely on things like "intangibles" talk their way into justifying their voting for their favorite candidate.
But really, Kobe's season this year is worse than his when he lost to Nash, AND Paul's year this year his better than either of Nash's MVP years. Therefore, at least one of the following statements has to be true: 1) Nash never deserved to win an MVP award, or 2) Chris Paul has to win this year's MVP in a landslide.
You are a slave to stats.
The analysis above doesn't mean much without including the performance of the team they were on in the regular season.
Your idea that Kobe's stats being better when he lost to Nash meaning that logically he must lose the MVP race to win this year is illogical. Kobe lead his team to the best record in the west this season, not in the season you mention above. That is an important part of the MVP race.
The stuff I'm saying should be obvious.
I wouldn't say a slave to stats, but they are important. As for team success, well, 12 players dress for each game and contribute to a win or a loss, regardless of how good a season the best player on the team has. No matter how good a superstar is, they can only do so much. Look at KG's production over the years compared to team record. He's essentially always been the same dominant player, but his team's record has fluctuated tremendously. He's not that different this year than last year, but his team is very different, hence the difference in records.
Obviously stats and "intangible evidence" will always go hand in hand, but anytime your intangible evidence is the main reason to vote for an MVP, there's probably a flaw in your logic. This year, it's that Kobe is so much better than in any other year. Well, he's not, he's having a great year AND his teammates are playing better than before. Steve Nash did not save basketball in phoenix, he is a great player on a team with several great players, whose arrival coincided with team success, and because he's such and "interesting" figure, he got tremendous media credit for the team's turnaround.
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In all seriousness, I do believe Nash is overrated. Look at his stats his two MVP seasons:
MIN FG% 3P% FT% TO STL RB AST PTS PER
34 .502 .431 .887 3.3 1 3.4 11.5 15.5 22.04
36 .512 .439 .921 3.5 .8 4.2 10.5 18.8 23.29
Those are not all-time numbers. And before you give me "point guard intangibles," here's the last stat line of the last MVP point guard, Magic Johnson:
MIN FG% 3P% FT% TO STL RB AST PTS
37 .480 .384 .890 3.7 1.7 6.6 11.5 22.3
Johnson had a significantly better overall season, when factoring steals and the large increases in scoring and rebounding.
So whom did Nash beat each year?
05-06
MIN FG% 3P% FT% TO STL RB AST PTS PER
Lebron:
42.5 .480 .335 .738 3.3 1.6 7.0 6.6 31.4 28.17
Dirk (whose team was BETTER post-Nash):
38.1 .480 .406 .901 1.9 0.7 9.0 2.8 26.6 28.20
Kobe (take a look at the supporting casts)
41.0 .450 .347 .850 3.1 1.8 5.3 4.5 35.4 28.11
04-05
MIN FG% 3P% FT% TO STL RB AST PTS PER
Shaq
34.1 .601 .461 2.8 0.5 10.4 2.7 22.9 27.03
Dirk
38.7 .459 .399 .869 2.3 1.2 9.7 3.1 26.1 26.14
Duncan
33.4 .496 .333 .670 1.9 0.7 11.1 2.7 20.3 27.12
All of those stat lines are just better than either of Nash's years. Just look at the PERs! Not to mention the fact that Shaq and Duncan each had more than 2 blocks per game in 04-05, and Duncan, in addition to having better overall numbers, actually makes his defense significantly better than does Nash.
Compare Chris Paul's numbers this year to Nash's from either MVP year:
MIN FG% 3P% FT% TO STL RB AST PTS PER
37.6 .488 .369 .851 2.51 2.71 4.0 11.6 21.1 28.39
I mean, Chris Paul's season absolutely destrys Nash's MVP years. Check out that PER, and look at the scoring and steals, and almost a full turnover less than Nash. If Nash was truly a deserving MVP candidate, Paul has to win this year. Chris's #1 competition this year is generally considered Kobe, with Lebron another viable option (for purposes of this and to avoid starting a flame war i'm pretending KG is not an option).
MIN FG% 3P% FT% TO STL RB AST PTS PER
Kobe
38.9 .459 .361 .840 3.13 1.84 6.3 5.4 28.3 24.31
Lebron
40.4 .484 .315 .712 3.40 1.84 7.9 7.2 30.0 29.23
In reality, the race should come down to Lebron and Paul, but writers with votes like to think that they know more about the sport than other people do, so they rely on things like "intangibles" talk their way into justifying their voting for their favorite candidate.
But really, Kobe's season this year is worse than his when he lost to Nash, AND Paul's year this year his better than either of Nash's MVP years. Therefore, at least one of the following statements has to be true: 1) Nash never deserved to win an MVP award, or 2) Chris Paul has to win this year's MVP in a landslide.
You are a slave to stats.
The analysis above doesn't mean much without including the performance of the team they were on in the regular season.
Your idea that Kobe's stats being better when he lost to Nash meaning that logically he must lose the MVP race to win this year is illogical. Kobe lead his team to the best record in the west this season, not in the season you mention above. That is an important part of the MVP race.
The stuff I'm saying should be obvious.
I wouldn't say a slave to stats, but they are important. As for team success, well, 12 players dress for each game and contribute to a win or a loss, regardless of how good a season the best player on the team has. No matter how good a superstar is, they can only do so much. Look at KG's production over the years compared to team record. He's essentially always been the same dominant player, but his team's record has fluctuated tremendously. He's not that different this year than last year, but his team is very different, hence the difference in records.
Obviously stats and "intangible evidence" will always go hand in hand, but anytime your intangible evidence is the main reason to vote for an MVP, there's probably a flaw in your logic. This year, it's that Kobe is so much better than in any other year. Well, he's not, he's having a great year AND his teammates are playing better than before. Steve Nash did not save basketball in phoenix, he is a great player on a team with several great players, whose arrival coincided with team success, and because he's such and "interesting" figure, he got tremendous media credit for the team's turnaround.
I completely agree with you VT. and so we don't hijack this Amare thread, I'm gunna start one on nash.
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You're right, it's very easy to get off topic. But is Amare the most overrated player in the league? No way. Look what he did this year:
Min FG% FT% STL BLK ASST REB PTS PER
33.9 .590 .805 0.8 2.1 2.2 9.1 25.2 27.61
Those are fantastic numbers for just 34 minutes a game.
In order to be overrated, people need to think he's way better than he actually is. I think he's one of the better players in the league, and that seems to be the general consensus. No one thinks he's all-nba, nearly everyone thinks he's not even the best player on his own team. Most people list KG, Duncan, Dwight, and Dirk ahead of Amare; some would put Bosh and Boozer ahead of him too. That seems about right to me, I consider him just a hair below those top 4 and on par with Bosh and ahead of boozer. he's better than offense than all of them except dirk, but the others are all better on D, except boozer or maybe dirk. His rebounding is also a little below those guys. So he's right there in the mix, so I don't understand how he's overrated.
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He's coming back down to earth a bit in the "overrated" category but I'd still rank Vince Carter as king of this hill.
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He's coming back down to earth a bit in the "overrated" category but I'd still rank Vince Carter as king of this hill.
I think there are a ton of guys for this list.
AI
Melo
Arenas
Josh Smith
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Stoudemire is amazing. No one claims he is perfect. Howard is considered the dominant big man of the future, not Amare. But Amare is a beast on offense.
Everyone charges at times, especially on fast breaks. Pierce and Ray Allen have done it, and they are smaller players who most would expect to have a mobility advantage over Amare.
Amare is so much better now that he doesn't have to play center. He has a ton of moves. He is not a post guy who has a single favorite move. He is a guy who runs around and who is amazingly agile.
There is a simple reason why Amare got less easy baskets yesterday -- they were playing the Spurs. Duncan could get easy baskets either at the end of the game, and Duncan has amazing go-to moves.
Let's not overreact.
While I agree everyone makes stupid charge fouls occasionally, I'd like to more comment on Stoudemire's propensity to do so in big games, at key times. His constant foul trouble against the Suns' most important opponent, the Spurs, is indicative of what I'm getting at. Nearly every game against the Spurs he puts his team in a bad position because of stupid fouls--over-the-backs, offensive control fouls, plowing through screens, etc. This has been going on for four years now.
As several have pointed out, correctly, Stoudemire has added some elements to his game this year. I don't really doubt that he is a good player. My problem is with the way he is perceived. He was first-team all-NBA last year. Has there been a first-teamer in the last decade with as many holes in his game as Stoudemire's? Nash, even though he's also a terrible defender, at least doesn't make stupid mistakes at bad times in big games. In fact, he usually steps up his game at these times--witness the OTs on Saturday. Stoudemire often spends key portions of the game on the bench against the Spurs. Why do people so universally praise his game and vote him to all-NBA teams if he can't help his team when they need him?
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He's definitely overrated by Shaq, but I can think of a ton more players more overrated than Amare. If I had to pick a team of overrated all stars, my starting five would be:
PG: Tony Parker
I'm not sure what this guy is great at except getting into the lane and shooting floaters. The only problem is he misses his fair share of layups, and more importantly, watch how often Duncan's defender refuses to leave Duncan on Parker's penetration. This fact makes Parker seem more effective than he really is. He can't shoot very well, awful from three, poor defense, overrated passing, constantly an all star but only 3rd best on his team. Steve Nash, because of his back to back mvps, is also overrated, but not nearly as much as Parker. His finals mvp is one of the biggest shams I've ever seen for an award in sports, along with Brady not winning it while leading the NFL in passing with Reche Caldwell as his #1.
SG: Arenas
Ok, he currently doesn't start, but he will soon. Skills wise he's not uverrated, however his team is worse when he plays. Almost every announcer calls him one of the ten best in the game. Offensively, perhaps, but not overall. For all his game winning jumpers, he seems to clank a lot of 4th quarter shots and hasn't had much playoff success.
SF: Vince Carter. Super underachiever, team cancer, contract year superstar, poor defender and often merely a jumpshooter.
PF: This to me is the toughest call, because there isn't an all star level guy that I'd consider overrated by much. If I didn't think you guys were smart, I would say Ben Wallace or Jermaine O'Neal. But since I do, I'm going to go with Chris Bosh. I want to say Elton Brand, but to say him would only be because of his health, which I don't think is enough.
Until this year Bosh was in the conversation for best young big with Amare and Howard and Jefferson, but to me Bosh is simply an offensive jumpshooter whose defense is not that strong. Amare has way more moves, like Amare Bosh benefits from playing with a great pass first pg in Calderone, and Bosh's stats are inflated because no one else on his team can really create a shot. To me, Bosh's defense is just as poor as Amare's, and for the second straight year it seems like he won't win a first round series.
Josh Smith is an intriguing possibility but for my purposes he isn't an all star caliber player yet. He's also miles ahead of Bosh defensively, rebounds just as well despite being smaller and playing with a truly primo rebounder in Horford, is a better passer.
C: Yao Ming. I'm gonna get it for this, but Yao Ming is one of the worst defensive centers I have ever seen. He can't stay healthy, he gets absolutely abused in the playoffs, he can't move off the ball or get position very well, he should be a way better rebounder than he is at 7'6'', and he should be able to do more at his size than shoot a baseline turnaround jumper. I would say Brad Miller but I don't think anyone really thinks he's very good, whereas Yao Ming gets MVP consideration.
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He's definitely overrated by Shaq, but I can think of a ton more players more overrated than Amare. If I had to pick a team of overrated all stars, my starting five would be:
PG: Tony Parker
I'm not sure what this guy is great at except getting into the lane and shooting floaters. The only problem is he misses his fair share of layups, and more importantly, watch how often Duncan's defender refuses to leave Duncan on Parker's penetration. This fact makes Parker seem more effective than he really is. He can't shoot very well, awful from three, poor defense, overrated passing, constantly an all star but only 3rd best on his team. Steve Nash, because of his back to back mvps, is also overrated, but not nearly as much as Parker. His finals mvp is one of the biggest shams I've ever seen for an award in sports, along with Brady not winning it while leading the NFL in passing with Reche Caldwell as his #1.
SG: Arenas
Ok, he currently doesn't start, but he will soon. Skills wise he's not uverrated, however his team is worse when he plays. Almost every announcer calls him one of the ten best in the game. Offensively, perhaps, but not overall. For all his game winning jumpers, he seems to clank a lot of 4th quarter shots and hasn't had much playoff success.
SF: Vince Carter. Super underachiever, team cancer, contract year superstar, poor defender and often merely a jumpshooter.
PF: This to me is the toughest call, because there isn't an all star level guy that I'd consider overrated by much. If I didn't think you guys were smart, I would say Ben Wallace or Jermaine O'Neal. But since I do, I'm going to go with Chris Bosh. I want to say Elton Brand, but to say him would only be because of his health, which I don't think is enough.
Until this year Bosh was in the conversation for best young big with Amare and Howard and Jefferson, but to me Bosh is simply an offensive jumpshooter whose defense is not that strong. Amare has way more moves, like Amare Bosh benefits from playing with a great pass first pg in Calderone, and Bosh's stats are inflated because no one else on his team can really create a shot. To me, Bosh's defense is just as poor as Amare's, and for the second straight year it seems like he won't win a first round series.
Josh Smith is an intriguing possibility but for my purposes he isn't an all star caliber player yet. He's also miles ahead of Bosh defensively, rebounds just as well despite being smaller and playing with a truly primo rebounder in Horford, is a better passer.
C: Yao Ming. I'm gonna get it for this, but Yao Ming is one of the worst defensive centers I have ever seen. He can't stay healthy, he gets absolutely abused in the playoffs, he can't move off the ball or get position very well, he should be a way better rebounder than he is at 7'6'', and he should be able to do more at his size than shoot a baseline turnaround jumper. I would say Brad Miller but I don't think anyone really thinks he's very good, whereas Yao Ming gets MVP consideration.
I have to disagree with you on TP,he is a proven warrior,winner,so i have to give him his due.The rest,have never won any championships or been on a team that came close.If you are overrated,usually,you can't help your team climb to the top.I think TP,being the quarterback so to speak of the SPURS,showed in the past,he is a leader,and didn't choke in the big games.It takes special players to take it all the way.I know Duncan was the main force on the Spurs,but he didn't win alone.My observation is Tony Parker, has proved in the past he can play at the top.
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He's definitely overrated by Shaq, but I can think of a ton more players more overrated than Amare. If I had to pick a team of overrated all stars, my starting five would be:
PG: Tony Parker
I'm not sure what this guy is great at except getting into the lane and shooting floaters. The only problem is he misses his fair share of layups, and more importantly, watch how often Duncan's defender refuses to leave Duncan on Parker's penetration. This fact makes Parker seem more effective than he really is. He can't shoot very well, awful from three, poor defense, overrated passing, constantly an all star but only 3rd best on his team. Steve Nash, because of his back to back mvps, is also overrated, but not nearly as much as Parker. His finals mvp is one of the biggest shams I've ever seen for an award in sports, along with Brady not winning it while leading the NFL in passing with Reche Caldwell as his #1.
SG: Arenas
Ok, he currently doesn't start, but he will soon. Skills wise he's not uverrated, however his team is worse when he plays. Almost every announcer calls him one of the ten best in the game. Offensively, perhaps, but not overall. For all his game winning jumpers, he seems to clank a lot of 4th quarter shots and hasn't had much playoff success.
SF: Vince Carter. Super underachiever, team cancer, contract year superstar, poor defender and often merely a jumpshooter.
PF: This to me is the toughest call, because there isn't an all star level guy that I'd consider overrated by much. If I didn't think you guys were smart, I would say Ben Wallace or Jermaine O'Neal. But since I do, I'm going to go with Chris Bosh. I want to say Elton Brand, but to say him would only be because of his health, which I don't think is enough.
Until this year Bosh was in the conversation for best young big with Amare and Howard and Jefferson, but to me Bosh is simply an offensive jumpshooter whose defense is not that strong. Amare has way more moves, like Amare Bosh benefits from playing with a great pass first pg in Calderone, and Bosh's stats are inflated because no one else on his team can really create a shot. To me, Bosh's defense is just as poor as Amare's, and for the second straight year it seems like he won't win a first round series.
Josh Smith is an intriguing possibility but for my purposes he isn't an all star caliber player yet. He's also miles ahead of Bosh defensively, rebounds just as well despite being smaller and playing with a truly primo rebounder in Horford, is a better passer.
C: Yao Ming. I'm gonna get it for this, but Yao Ming is one of the worst defensive centers I have ever seen. He can't stay healthy, he gets absolutely abused in the playoffs, he can't move off the ball or get position very well, he should be a way better rebounder than he is at 7'6'', and he should be able to do more at his size than shoot a baseline turnaround jumper. I would say Brad Miller but I don't think anyone really thinks he's very good, whereas Yao Ming gets MVP consideration.
I have to disagree with you on TP,he is a proven warrior,winner,so i have to give him his due.The rest,have never won any championships or been on a team that came close.If you are overrated,usually,you can't help your team climb to the top.I think TP,being the quarterback so to speak of the SPURS,showed in the past,he is a leader,and didn't choke in the big games.It takes special players to take it all the way.I know Duncan was the main force on the Spurs,but he didn't win alone.My observation is Tony Parker, has proved in the past he can play at the top.
Would you consider Nash more overrated? What other all star pg would you consider more overrated, as all stars are the guys responsible for getting the team to the top, not the role players.
Other than the C's I've watched the Spurs more than anyone else in the league. To me, what makes Tony Parker indisputably overrated is the fact that he's the third best player on his team behind Manu and Duncan both statistically and in terms of importance, clutchness, and defense, and yet he's been to two all star games, while Manu has not been selected once. I realize there are a ton of forwards in the west, but players are measured by all star teams. This makes Parker overrated.
Other than the fact that the only thing Parker is "great" at is penetrating the lane and hitting floaters, the main reason he made those all star teams are because Duncan, Ginobili and the bench gave him a higher win total than other deserving pg's: Andre Miller (both years) , Chris Paul (05-06), Iverson (05-06), and Deron Williams (06-08). And last of all, the finals MVP thing is really what cements it, because he was the third best player in that series.
NBA players are rated significantly by awards. Because there is a strong case that Parker did not truly deserve his, I believe that makes him overrated. Perhaps there is another all star level pg who is more overrated, but in my mind Parker is clearly overrated.
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He's definitely overrated by Shaq, but I can think of a ton more players more overrated than Amare. If I had to pick a team of overrated all stars, my starting five would be:
C: Yao Ming. I'm gonna get it for this, but Yao Ming is one of the worst defensive centers I have ever seen. He can't stay healthy, he gets absolutely abused in the playoffs, he can't move off the ball or get position very well, he should be a way better rebounder than he is at 7'6'', and he should be able to do more at his size than shoot a baseline turnaround jumper. I would say Brad Miller but I don't think anyone really thinks he's very good, whereas Yao Ming gets MVP consideration.
You won't get it from me, given your rationale, as I'm right with you regarding Yao's defense. I do think he is still a top-flight player in the league overall (when healthy), but his lateral movement is so bad that it really can kill this team on defense. I believe they've only risen in the efficiency rankings without him at the end of the floor, and it's worth remembering that the quickness of Utah's bigs made this guy an utter liability last season.
That said, I don't purport to suggest that the Rockets are better off without him than with him. But he does have some major deficiencies on the defensive end of the floor that are often overlooked. Well said, smokeablount. And creative name, too (guess I hadn't come across ya before)! TP to ya.
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I think Manu's a little overhyped too, more so because people say he's the Spurs MVP this year. He's not its Duncan. Plus he flops too much on D and travels too much on O.
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I think Manu's a little overhyped too, more so because people say he's the Spurs MVP this year. He's not its Duncan. Plus he flops too much on D and travels too much on O.
Parker is even more overrated!! Lets see how good those two "all stars" really are by replacing Duncan with with say Jermaine O'Neal or Chris Wilcox. They wouldn't make the playoffs.
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I think Chris Bosh is hands down the most overated player in the league.
Wasn't Toronto suppose to be good this year led by this guy? Barely getting to 500 in the Atlantic is pretty pitiful considering the offseason expectations...
Lets not forget how Mikki Moore & the NoFrontLine Nets absolutely owned him the playoffs last year. This year, I will be surprised to see them win One game. His game is identical to Mark Blount --- 18' jumper, no rebounds, crappy D, and then the disapearing act when the game is on the line...
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I think Chris Bosh is hands down the most overated player in the league.
Wasn't Toronto suppose to be good this year led by this guy? Barely getting to 500 in the Atlantic is pretty pitiful considering the offseason expectations...
Lets not forget how Mikki Moore & the NoFrontLine Nets absolutely owned him the playoffs last year. This year, I will be surprised to see them win One game. His game is identical to Mark Blount --- 18' jumper, no rebounds, crappy D, and then the disapearing act when the game is on the line...
Bosh has his flaws...but Mark Blount? We're talking about a guy here who has averaged 22 ppg and 9.2, 10.7 and 8.7 rpg for the last three seasons...and has career averages of 18.9 and 9.0. Seems a bit harsh to me.
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Other than the fact that the only thing Parker is "great" at is penetrating the lane and hitting floaters, the main reason he made those all star teams are because Duncan, Ginobili and the bench gave him a higher win total than other deserving pg's: Andre Miller (both years) , Chris Paul (05-06), Iverson (05-06), and Deron Williams (06-08). And last of all, the finals MVP thing is really what cements it, because he was the third best player in that series.
To pile on:
Parker was also being defended by Boobie Gibson in the Finals! Give me a break. Parker always looks good when he plays against terrible defenders. And then on defense.... Parker? ....not so spectacular. Borderline All Star.
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All stats aside, when is Bosh going to bring it like a real superstar? I am talking about wins and big time performances.
Going 500 after your team was nicely rebuilt around you, and getting slapped around by a scrawny reserve like Mikki Moore last year in the playoffs - is pretty weak for a guy who is on our National Team. He looks like a child playing against Howard, don't be surprised when they get swept.
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All stats aside, when is Bosh going to bring it like a real superstar? I am talking about wins and big time performances.
Going 500 after your team was nicely rebuilt around you, and getting slapped around by a scrawny reserve like Mikki Moore last year in the playoffs - is pretty weak for a guy who is on our National Team. He looks like a child playing against Howard, don't be surprised when they get swept.
I understand what you're saying...I was merely suggesting that the Blount reference was a bit much for me.
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25 teams in the NBA have a second scorer that scores above 17ppg. Only 5 do not, those teams - Seattle (Wilcox 13.4ppg), Minnesota (McCants 14.9), Memphis (Mike Miller 16.4), Cleveland (Ilgauskas 14.9) and Toronto with Anthony Parker at 12.5ppg. Three of those teams are amongst the five worst in the league. And I think we can all get together and agree Ilgauskas is a lot better than Parker.
That's why Chris Bosh isn't overrated.
Chris Bosh has a larger burden on his shoulders than any other superstar in this league and has the worst supporting cast of any playoff team. He has the second worst offensive help in the league behind Kevin Durant, virtue of Bosh having more double digit scorers.
Playoffs are tougher. Teams have the time to work up team specific, player specific defensive strategies. We've seen Orlando do it already in game one, sending Jameer Nelson over to cut off the lane trying to limit Bosh's drive. New Jersey did it brilliantly last season. It's a heck of a lot easier for teams to limit Chris Bosh during the playoffs. They can just load up all over him.
Give Bosh some running mates and Toronto would make a lot of noise. Right now Bosh is a notch below being an MVP candidate. He's doing great work, needs help.